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The Fortunate Faithful?

07 May 2007 08:30 am

Matt sides with Jon Chait; Ezra sides with Karl Rove. I take Matt's point that the atheist's self-proclaimed envy for the believer's faith is often a form of condescension, along the lines of saying "I wish I could believe in your crazy religion, you gullible fool, but I'm just too smart for that." On the other hand, I think there are circumstances where the condescension fades into the background: It's hard to see, for instance, why an atheist parent trying desperately to cope with the loss of a child wouldn't envy a Christian who believes in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting, even if that envy has an element of condescension woven in.

Of course, the death of a child is an extreme circumstance, and in the daily round of eating, sleeping, working and copulating, it's possible to make the case that - assuming there is in fact no God - the consolation that religious believers get from their creed is outweighed by the inconvenience, repression and sacrifice their belief system requires. (There's also the fact that a non-trivial number of believers, as one of Ezra's commenters points out, are as likely to be freaked out by their experiences with the numinous as comforted by them.) In the Western context, there's the question of hell as well: If the possibility of eternal damnation seems more frightening to you than the possibility of extinction, then you have less reason to envy an orthodox Christian his belief system. The moralistic therapeutic deism that passes for Christianity for many Americans, of course, is more self-evidently enviable - though also more self-evidently ridiculous. (There's that condescension!)

And then there's the variance in religious teachings to consider. Were I not a Christian, for instance, I'm pretty sure I would envy Christians their beliefs about the afterlife, since the survival of consciousness and the resurrection of the body more or less matches up with my deepest longings concerning what awaits after death. (This correlation is one of the many reasons, of course, why I am a Christian to begin with.) I'm less sure that I'd envy someone who believes in reincarnation, or the annihilation of the self in some pantheistic sea, or some of the other religious notions about last things, because I find these concepts barely more consoling than the materialist attempts to reason away the fear of death - which is to say, not consoling at all.

Comments (51)

I'm not so sure it's obvious that an atheist would envy someone who had lost their child forever but just didn't know it. I mean, yes and no.

I always thought reincarnation was more appealing than Christianity--just because if you screw up reincarnation, you get another chance to do better. Christianity just sends you to burn forever. One can even imagine reincarnation systems in which you keep bumping into the people you loved (or hated?) in previous lives, you just never know it.

"This correlation is one of the many reasons, of course, why I am a Christian to begin with"

OK, I'm trying my best to restrain my urge to be flip, but how on earth can you so freely admit to believing something just because you want it to be true? What relevance does your desire have to the objective truth (or lack thereof) of the resurrection etc?

How different is the Christian response (as long as we are putting words in others' mouths). "I wish I could emphathize with your lack of faith, you ammoral devil-worshipper, I will pray for your soul."

How absurd that such reasonable debate always has to devolve into personal attacks. And, how are we athesits supposed to respect Christians if this is ALWAYS the Christian counter argument? We aren't too smart. We do appreciate reasoned debate.

I suppose that I am a unigue breed of athiest but I never envy christians. The reason is that I do not trust the relgious faith of the general public. You say that your child that has died is in heaven and you will see them again. I do not trust that you really beleive that. The reason I beleive this is because when I ask rekigious people tough questions about their face I can always feel the doubt. Maybe I am making it up but it seems like they lower their voice and get a sad look in their face. I beleive that faith in god is a delusion and deep down all rational people know that.

Will no one quote the inimitable David St Hubbins: "I believe virtually everything I read, and I think that is what makes me more of a selective human, than someone who doesn't believe anything."

More seriously, here's a way of putting it that might not be seen as condescending:

An unbeliever might observe religious people and say: these people seem to have a higher degree of Darwinian fitness than he does himself. They have more children, they seem more able to make real sacrifices for the group and for future generations, etc. And it's not at all mad to think that false beliefs might increase Darwinian fitness: Darwinian fitness is about spreading genes, not achieving happiness, and plenty of species get along fine at spreading their genes with no higher brain functions at all, so it's not at all obvious that we must pursue truth to spread our genes effectively.

So: if our unbeliever concluded that Darwinian fitness was correlated with religious belief, and if that same unbeliever wanted (for whatever reason) to think of himself as fit (one can legitimately ask *why* our unbeliever would *care* but my observation is that most people don't want to think of themselves as evolutionary dead-ends, even if this us not a rational feeling on their part) - in that case, our unbeliever might entirely honestly and without condescension say that he *wished* he could be a believer, but he just can't muster the necessary belief.

Is that what Karl Rove meant? I have no idea. I'd bet the foregoing is how John Derbyshire feels about the whole question, though, for what it's worth.

Really, I enjoy reading Noah Millman, John Derbyshire, Razib of Gene Expression, and especially Steve Sailer, but they should realize that they are atypical people and have an atypical outlook. I doubt very much that the average normal person, even if he believes strongly in Darwinian evolution, has ever actually devoted two seconds of thought to his own "Darwinian fitness."

As far as I can tell, the most obvious explanation of Rove's remarks (and Klein's too, for that matter) is not that he wishes he could be a believer in a world where God does not exist, but that he wishes God actually existed but intellectually cannot bring himself to do so. He doesn't mean, I think, that he wishes he could partake of a false hope; he wishes that the hope were actually true (as Mr. Douthat and I believe it is, but Messrs. Rove, Klein, and Yglesias do not). Rove may have used a poor wording, but I think that what was most likely what he meant.

Why prefer truth over happiness?

I don't think it's condescention. I envy children their innocence and animals their ignorance of their own mortality. A lot of times I envy people who have no capacity for introspection. It's a desire for life to be simpler than it is. I wish I could go back to the 1990's and be ignorant of the threat of Islamic terrorism, global warming, etc. but that doesn't mean I'm condescending towards my earlier self.

One thing I find odd is that some Christians will claim that we Atheists refuse to believe in God because we don't want to be responsible to anyone for our actions. Do they then envy our (supposed) ability to sin without feelings of guilt?

A small point, but an important one - to conclude, from Karl Rove's words, that he is an "atheist," is perhaps reading too much into them.

Atheists have positive belief that there is no God. Atheists often argue from a position of crude rationalism, unaware that there is no more empirical evidence to support their belief than there is to support that of the theists. In many ways atheists are mirror images of theists, in the sense that both atheism and theism are, in the final analysis, questions of faith.

Like religious believers, atheists proselytize, write apologetics, and seek to influence public policy to favor their position. A recent example is the litigation over whether inclusion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance constitutes an establishment of religion under the purview of the First Amendment. It often appears that atheists really seek to establish atheism as the state religion, rather than a wishing a policy of strict governmental neutrality with respect to religions. Richard Dawkins and Madalyn Murray O'Hair are examples of atheists.

Agnostics, by comparison, don't know whether or not there is a God, or do not care. They may set up Christmas trees and exchange gifts, let their children hunt Easter eggs, and even go to church, not out of sincere belief but because they feel these activities are part of being good parents and good neighbors, as those terms are commonly understood.. They feel no need to persuade their fellow men to share their doubt of, or indifference to, religion. I have even known some clergymen who are privately agnostic.

Agnostics may see utilitarian value in religion, insofar as it serves as a vehicle for moral instruction. Agnostic thinkers as diverse as Thomas Jefferson and Charles Maurras have made such arguments. I suspect that Karl Rove, to the extent he has thought at all about religion, takes this attitude.

Just a quick note--as an atheist, I put up Christmas lights and tree and exchange gifts.

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