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Two Faces of Libertarianism

24 May 2007 05:49 pm

It's interesting that the most compelling moment of the Presidential campaign so far involved a face-off between Rudy Giuliani and Ron Paul, because the two men demonstrate just how much two candidates can diverge on policy matters and still both be cast as the "libertarian" in the race. Paul is a libertarian of process and results, you might say: He wants a system of government designed to maximize individual freedom, which to his mind involves a return to lost constitutional principles that strictly circumscribe what the federal government can and cannot do. Giuliani, by contrast, is a libertarian of results alone, and only on certain issues. He wants to maximize "reproductive freedom," for instance, and doesn't care if doing so involves ceding enormous authority to unelected judges; he wants taxes to be low, but doesn't question the principle of income taxation (as Paul does), and so forth. On other issues, meanwhile, he's decidedly authoritarian, which is why it's passing strange to see so many self-described libertarian conservatives - Ryan Sager, for instance - swooning for a guy who has the potential to be Dick Cheney Part II on civil liberties, except with a zest for gun control thrown in.

Passing strange, but perhaps a sign of which face of libertarianism has the broader appeal these days. When the Davids (Boaz and Kirby) at Cato did their analysis of the "libertarian vote", they largely bracketed questions about foreign policy and the national security state, and defined their subjects as voters committed to "economic dynamism and social tolerance" - a description, not coincidentally, that fits Giuliani to a tee. Insofar as there's a constituency for something called "libertarianism," then, it may be a constituency that's comfortable with the sort of libertarianism that Rudy represents, authoritarian tendencies and all. In the world of think tanks and punditry, there are plenty of libertarians (Andrew, for instance) who find Rudy's views on social issues appealing and his views on civil liberties appalling, but I'm not sure there are that many voters who share that consistency. Instead, it seems - at least based on Giuliani's poll numbers compared to Ron Paul's - that a libertarianism that's pro-choice, pro-growth and pro-"enhanced interrogation techniques" is the only libertarianism that has any mass appeal these days.

Of course, one could argue that a libertarianism that's comfortable with wiretaps, gun bans, waterboarding and so forth is no libertarianism at all - which is why when John Tabin frets about whether libertarianism "can survive Ron Paul," I think he's somewhat missing the point. If anything, the question is whether a principled, consistent libertarianism (which I don't endorse, but do admire) can survive Rudy Giuliani, whose candidacy may invite Americans with libertarian inclinations to accept an expansive interpretation of executive power and a dim view of civil liberties in exchange for lower dividend tax rates and the right to abortion - and may demonstrate that this is a trade that today's "libertarian" voters are happy to make.

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Comments (26)

If Rudy is considered a libertarian, then that term has ceased to have useful meaning.

Libertarianism is about individual liberty. Rudy Giuliani is a collectivist, socialist, 911 profiteer thug. Nice spin though.

there's no proof of anything to say rudy's "libertarianism" (NOT!) is more appealing.

Rudy is simply more well known...period. He's a media darling and gets coverage at will. Ron Paul is a relative unknown and the media keeps it that way. And when they do talk about Paul, it's never in a way in which he's treated fairly.

This is the self-fulfilled media prophecy. Rudy is famous, Paul is not....So rudy get all the press, Paul does not. Then Rudy is given the label "stronger" candidate because...BINGO!...he's famous and Paul is not.

The real question is what voters would think if they knew more about him...something whichg the media at large keeps from happening.

Rudy is a neocon. He doesn't care about traditional social conservatism at home (other than crime-fighting) and he wants to kill people abroad. I have no idea if neoconism is what he really believes in deep down, but it's what he had to espouse to detach the New York City Jewish vote from David Dinkins in 1993. It worked for him then, and it generates huge campaign donations from what Gen. Wesley Clark calls the New York money men, so he's stuck by it.

Between Paul and Giuliani, Giuliani is the only one who represents both sides of a true individualist stance, which is supposed to be the platform of the Libertarian party but is not any more. An individualist respects the rights of those people who do not violate the rights of others. So, an individualist running for president must both respect rights and deny them in those who violate the rights of others. The things you describe as authoritarian in Giuliani's stances are actually the denial of rights to those who deny them for others and hence have given up their rights. For example, if he supports waterboarding, he only supports it for terrorists who no longer have civil liberties. Paul on the other hand is pro-life and wants to deny women from making the choice to end a bodily relationship with her offspring, which is within her rights as owner of her own body. This solution to abortion is an attempt to deny someone their individual rights and therefore he is no Libertarian. I suspect that's why he quit the party. In conclusion, neither is a Libertarian, but Giuliani is an individualist.

Wow. I was contemplating flipping out, but Steven Donegal has it nailed.

Assuming that Dan is not a spoof, he should be aware that for a libertarian, there is no such thing as a person without any civil liberties. No libertarian would assume an omniscient state that always knew exactly whom to torture. It's a cute word game you tried to play, though.

Dan, you are completely out to lunch.

From the moment of conception, the embryo/zygote/fetus is a distinct, separate human entity from the mother. This is fact. Just look at its DNA, which is different from its mother's, if you need any proof.

As a human entity, it owns its body, just as the mother owns her own. Thus, the child has a right to live and not be killed, just as the mother does. Yet you suggest we allow the mother to kill it if its an inconvenience for her.

Riiiiiight.

Good job at completely missing the point of individual liberty. A mother and unborn child are both individuals, thus both have rights.

Rudy Giuliani is or was for taxing people to abort others. That is not libertarianism. Moreover, he put in the first smoking bans in N.Y. There is the gun control.

I think libertarians and Randians are crazy and can never govern but it is an insult to call Rudy one.

And, Dan, I owned my own body when I wrote this (who talks like that but weirdos?). Who gave you that body? Who fed it? Can you make another one when it wears out? The individual alone dies on a mountain top hungry, terrified and crying. He has value, because of God and a justly ordered society that recognizes that.

If libertarians want to measure their purity by how little they value the unborn and tolerate all manner of sexual depravity, knock yourselves out. It will only marginalize you further, were that possible.

"Paul on the other hand is pro-life and wants to deny women from making the choice to end a bodily relationship with her offspring, which is within her rights as owner of her own body."

No, he wants the issue out of the federal level of government and back with the states where it belongs. Locke preached strongly that a government can only act with the powers that are EXPRESSLY given to them by the people. The people have not given any expressed powers to government to keep a national legalization of abortion into effect, and thus, those powers are retained by the people, presumably given to the states.

"an expansive interpretation of executive power and a dim view of civil liberties in exchange for lower dividend tax rates and the right to abortion - and may demonstrate that this is a trade that today's "libertarian" voters are happy to make."

Isn't that exactly what a Cheney admin part II would look like, minus the abortion rights?

JJV,

A true liberatarian, such as Dr Paul, realizes that abortion is an uninvited act of agression on an unborn human life. It's the enforcement of one person's view (i.e. the mother's view) upon the unwilling child. This violates the very core of libertarianism, which is the right to be let alone and live for yourself.

A woman that decides to live for herself by having sex which results in pregnancy when she did not want a child has not been thinking of the consequences of her actions.

The consequence in this case is another human life, which has the right to be let alone. Abortion has always been a cop-out on personal accountability and responsibility and will always be such.

Libertarians believe everyone is accountable for the choices they make.

The real libertarian position is one of being pro-life.

StrawPoll (halfway down the page)
race42008 . com
(remove the spaces in the url)

Rudy? a Libertarian???

I'm sorry, I think you meant AUTHORitarian, as in
proto-fascist....

Rudy does not have a libertarian bone in his body. For cripes sakes the guy went off on a citizen of NY,NY because the guy wanted to keep a pet ferret and for some reason NY,NY made them illegal.

There is an audio clip from rudy's stint as mayor floating around the net. If Ghouliani becomes president, pack it in cause freedom is done IMO.

Ross: In the world of think tanks and punditry, there are plenty of libertarians (Andrew, for instance) who find Rudy's views on social issues appealing and his views on civil liberties appalling, but I'm not sure there are that many voters who share that consistency.

Um, there are plenty of voters who agree with Giuliani that decisions about abortion should be left up to women, their doctors and God and that gay people are somehow demonic and that waterboarding is torture and, like, bad.

They are, of course, mostly Democrats, though.

Unless you meant to say there are few libertarians with those beliefs in the general public, which might be true. It wasn't clear the way you wrote it.

Ron Paul is a paleolibertarian and Giuliani follows neolibertarian ideas.


NEOLIBARTARIANS are globalist whores. They are apologists for big business, support free trade, support the third-world invasion of the U.S., and now many of them even support interventionist governments. Morons of this stripe you find at the Cato Institute and Wall Street Journal.

PALEOLIBERTARIANS are old-school libertarians. They support states' rights, are skeptical of big business, oppose the third-world invasion of the West, skeptical of big business, and support a non-interventionist foreign policy.

How libertarians vote is irrelevant - they have a negligible effect on national races. Libertarian ideas can have (and have had) an impact, mostly in the economic sphere. They have an outsized presence in the blogosphere, where they generate a lot of commentary, but they have essentially no impact on electoral politics.

And I agree with those who think Rudy is not a libertarian. To use a sports analogy, he's one of those guys who you hate if he's on the other team, but you love him if he's on your team. The problem is that he's sort of half Democrat, half Republican, so if he's elected president he's bound to drive both sides crazy.

Of course, one could argue that a libertarianism that's comfortable with wiretaps, gun bans, waterboarding and so forth is no libertarianism at all

What's funny is the "could." What's funnier is that the "could" is actually a live issue, apparently, as all the glibertarians who supported the President till three days ago still feel comfortable using the "libertarian" label. Jeebus.

Those of us who are Pro-War on Islamo-Fascism libertarians are just returning to the original roots of the libertarian movement, before the Anarchist Leftwing non-interventionist types took control.

Dana Rohrabacher, Barry Goldwater, Dr. John Hospers, and many other of the early libertarians were Pro-War (on Communism).

The crazies took over the libertarian movement (specifically the Libertarian Party platform comm.), and whitewashed all the original Pro-Defense libertarians from our movement's history in the 1970s.

We're now taking our movement back!

Eric Dondero, Chairman
Libertarian Defense Caucus

On abortion do you think a mother has the right to leave a child to starve to death after she gives birth? That it's wrong to ban parents who leave their children to starve to death?

Even if you accept that and say she has the right to end a bodily relationship does that ential the right to kill the foetus first? surely not- it would give the right to expel him or her from the body not to kill him/her first !

Rudy Giuliani is not a libertarian at all. He is a "moderate" or "centrist," which means he's for expanding government for any left or right wing cause which he thinks will expand or preserve his power.

Ron Paul is a libertarian. He is for maximizing individual freedom wherever possible. The exact opposite of Giuliani.

Libertarians suffer the illusion that by maximizing liberty and minimizing the state evil may be avoided. Lincoln, for example, understood that this was essentially the view of the secessionists and quite correctly decided to use a maximum of state force to preserve the Union and ultimately to end slavery. FDR spent forty percent of GDP during WW II to defeat German and Japanese totalitarianism. These gentleman were classic liberals of the European variety, though rather far from being libertarians.

Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues

Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues

Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues

Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues

Contrary to popular belief, the end of the year is one of the best times to look for, awesome descion

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