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Knocked Up, Again

09 Jun 2007 11:43 am

I'm a little baffled by Dana Stevens' piece on abortion and Knocked Up, which doubles as an extended response to my post on the subject. In her original review, she wrote about "the nonexistence of abortion as an option" in the movie, and argued that this "omission smells of the focus group." I responded that actually, abortion is presented as an option in the movie; it's just presented in an extremely negative light. "I have no idea where Judd Apatow stands on the politics of abortion," I wrote - and added that "if I had to guess, I'd say he's probably a Saletan-style 'it's bad, but it has to be legal' type" - but the movie he's made pretty explicitly presents abortion as 1) a real option and 2) "a really horrible thing to do." This may not be sociologically realistic, I noted, given who the characters are supposed to be, but neither is it the "omission" that Stevens suggested it was.

In her response, Stevens first admits that yes, the movie does address abortion, and in so doing "discredits the ... moral standing" of the only character making an extended case for terminating the pregnancy. But then she writes:

The question is, from whose point of view is it that abortion is "a really horrible thing to do"? Apatow's? We have no idea from the film what the filmmaker's personal abortion politics are—I'd imagine that he votes pro-choice, whatever his reservations as an individual—but for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter. Apatow's reticence on the subject seems to spring less from personal conviction than from the fear of offending his audience's sensibilities. This kind of Trojan horse moralism is maddeningly common in pop-culture representations of abortion, which seem muzzled, invisibly policed, by either the pro-life lobby or the fear of it.

"From whose point of view"? From the movie's point of view, obviously! Yes, as I said myself, we don't know Apatow's politics, and it's quite likely that he supports legal abortion. But he's made a movie that - as Stevens now admits - doesn't just skirt the issue, but goes out of its way to make "smashmortion" seem like the wrong choice. He could have easily followed the pattern of, say, the Sex and the City episode where Miranda almost gets an abortion - an episode that spent twenty minutes patting the pro-choice side on the back before having Cynthia Nixon's character decide to keep the baby. But he didn't; he made a movie that makes the case for abortion seem like the province of gross slacker males and uptight, materialistic WASP shrews. Stevens is free to assume that he did so "less from personal conviction than from the fear of offending his audience's sensibilities," and to see in this the dread hand of the pro-life lobby, crushing artistic freedom yet again. I'll just stick to, you know, analyzing the movie.

Then she writes:

That same Atlantic blog post concludes with the opinion that the movie is "almost naively pro-life"—that Alison decides to keep her baby because "killing it" would be "obviously and terribly wrong," and Alison, bless her heart, is not a "bad person" who would do such a thing. The 77 percent of Americans who support abortion rights—and the 40 percent or more of American women who have exercised that right—can be excused for wondering where that supposedly obvious moral consensus is coming from.

Um, that's precisely why I said it's naively pro-life - because it doesn't really acknowledge the existence of a pro-choice case that isn't associated with horrible mothers and misognyist roommates. Again, it's not me that Stevens should be arguing with; it's Apatow. And incidentally, if 77 percent of Americans are really pro-abortion rights, then why does making a movie that takes an "abortion is bad" approach "smell of the focus group"?

Of course, those statistics are largely rubbish. But I'll get to that later.

Comments (100)

I hope you do parse the statistics - 40% of American women have had an abortion? You gotta be kidding me.

Ross, 80 percent of americans may support abortion rights, but, in the mode of Clinton's "safe, legal and rare" so people want to see people have the choice, but they want them to choose to have the kid in most instances. Especially, as in this movie (which I haven't seen but will tonight) you have a relatively affluent woman who was irresponsible in having unprotected sex and can afford to take responsibility for the child.

There have been several discussions and (mostly informal) surveys over the years among abortion opponents of the treatment of abortion in the arts. The picture that emerges is that even pro-choice artists seem to find it difficult to treat abortion according to conventional Planned Parenthood-style doctrine (imperious and cool exercise of choice, no negative consequences). The pattern of having a character make a sort of pro-forma pro-choice speech before choosing to have the baby occurs from time to time.

I recall noticing this for the first time 20-plus years ago in a then-popular novel by Ellen Gilchrist. (Looking at a list of her publications I think it must have been The Annunciation.) If I remember correctly the character actually gets to the clinic, then leaves with baby intact after assuring the staff that what they do is perfectly fine. It also occurs in Antonia's Line, a feminist film which I described as being about "empowered women and the men they don't need." There's a scene where a woman announces to an assembly of twenty or so friends and relatives that she's pregnant. There's a sort of reverent pause as they await her verdict on the child. It's made clear that she's perfectly free to say "no,", but she says "yes," and everybody's happy.

80 percent of americans may support abortion rights, but, in the mode of Clinton's "safe, legal and rare" so people want to see people have the choice, but they want them to choose to have the kid in most instances.

They already do choose to have the kid in most instances. Births outnumber induced abortions by about four to one. But I think most people would rather see a reduction in abortion through better prevention of unwanted pregnancies than by more of the women who are faced with such pregnancies having children they do not want.

Count me as skeptical of Stevens' statistics, too. Really, almost half of the women in America have had an abortion? Where's the data on that? Stevens accuses the movie of focus-group pandering, but it seems to me that there's a certain type of pro-abortion mentality that has to believe that it's a much more common phenomenon than it is. I suspect that such self-delusion is necessitated by exactly what the movie delineates: even people who think it should be legal know that abortion is nevertheless a terrible thing.

Count me as skeptical of Stevens' statistics, too. Really, almost half of the women in America have had an abortion? Where's the data on that?

Here, for example. Not "almost half," but "at current rates more than one-third will have had an abortion by age 45."

I suspect that such self-delusion is necessitated by exactly what the movie delineates: even people who think it should be legal know that abortion is nevertheless a terrible thing.

I suspect that people who make this kind of unsupported claim about what their opponents "know" are self-deluded.

Stevens only high-balled the abortion incidence rate slightly. According to the Guttmacher Institute, one third of women will have had at least one abortion by the age of 45. This is, of course, different than saying that one third of women have had abortions, and so Stevens was being sloppy, but the fact remains that many, many women choose abortion at some point in their lives.

Oops, Mixner beat me to that stat.

I've also seen data that very large majorities believe, incorrectly, that abortion is currently limited to the first trimester.

Most people know abortion is terribly wrong, but don't have the guts to face the potential economic consequences of banning it. This results in the strange result that there is a lot of more or less pro-life art out there by more or less pro-choice artists. But, as D.H. Lawrence once said of Nathaniel Hawthorne: "Trust the tale, not the teller."

Steven,

Where?

Ross,

There's no point in debating abortion with Dana Stevens. She's had an abortion and she takes anything less than approving endorsement of abortion as a personal attack on her.

In general, Dana takes everything personally, which is why she comes across as kind of dim: objective rationality doesn't really exist in her mental universe.

The reason so few sympathetic characters have abortions in movies is because movies are a visual medium. They encourage the visual imagination in the audience. What happens to an unborn baby being aborted, however, is too horrible to imagine visually.

Steve Sailor,

Yeah, that must also be why violence in general is so rare in the movies. All those war movies and crime films and teen slasher flicks are just a figment of our imagination.

According to the Guttmacher Institute...

According to the Tobacco Institute...

To say that abortion is NEVER treated sympathetically in the movies is not true. The Cider House Rules was, as Jon Stewart described it, the "feel good abortion movie of the year." In High Fidelity, noted conservative activist John Cusack's character castigates himself for his sanctimonious response to his girlfriend's revelation that she had aborted his child; his girlfriend was probably the most likable character in the movie.

Mixner writes:

"Steve Sailor [sic],

"Yeah, that must also be why violence in general is so rare in the movies."

Sympathetic characters in movies rarely commit violence against innocent children, born or unborn. It would make them unsympathetic.

This really isn't that complicated.

Steve Sailer,

Your claim was that abortion is rare in movies because it involves a violent act that is horrible to imagine visually. This claim is highly implausible in light of the fact that the movies are full of violent acts that are horrible to imagine visually. Indeed, movies frequently depict such acts in excruciating visual detail.

It would be a mistake to confuse something that people don't like to think about but that they regard as the best choice in a bad situation with something that people oppose.

This debate between Ross and Dana Stevens is a good example of the male vs. female minds at work. Dana's opinion is driven by the fact that she had an abortion, while Ross has a masculine mind, so he doesn't even mention that and goes on trying to conduct the debate on the general and objective level.

Sailer, you have got to be kidding me.

Mixner writes:

"It would be a mistake to confuse something that people don't like to think about but that they regard as the best choice in a bad situation with something that people oppose."

That's exactly what I'm saying: Sympathetic characters very rarely have abortions in movies because people don't like to think about abortion. People like to think about falling love and getting married and having babies and triumphing over bad guys and getting famous, so that happens a lot in movies. Having an abortion, however? Yuck! So it's a lot rarer in movies than in real life.

Art Deco - it's nice to see that you're not above ad hominem attacks on well-respected research institutes.

Ms. Dana Stevens, Slate's film critrix, doesn't exactly wield Occam's Razorette. Earlier this year, she plaintively wondered:

"Why War Movies Leave Me Cold

"I'm going to start with a personal confession that I hope will open out onto some bigger questions—not only about this year's movies, but about the ever-scarier world outside the theater. Here goes: I don't like war movies. Worse, I don't seem to get war movies. Even as the lizard part of my brain recoils appropriately from images of young men blasted to bits by bombs, my higher faculties inevitably shut down, and any cinematic subtleties are lost on me. It's as if I myself, as a viewer, were suddenly plunged into a war zone, where the world narrows to the question of sheer survival.

"My thought process during your average war movie, if transcribed, would read something like this: God, war is strange. … Large groups of men in uniforms trying to kill other men in uniforms, in service of an abstract concept … How could anything so horrible have happened once in the history of humanity, much less be happening all over the world right now? … I wonder if the American death toll in Iraq has passed 3,000 yet … Oh s***, Giovanni Ribisi is gonna get it now. … Please don't show his guts.

"By the way, this kind of dissociative disorder strikes only during the classic boys-in-the-combat-zone movie: a Saving Private Ryan, a Flags of Our Fathers...

"What does it mean, this resistance to a genre that, I can objectively acknowledge, has produced so many powerful and moving and important films...?"

Hmmhmmmh, that's a tough one ... What could it possibly mean? Oh, wait a minute ... I think I've got it:

It means: You're a woman.

Steve Sailer,

Movie characters, sympathetic or otherwise, very rarely have unwanted pregnancies, so it's not terribly surprising that they very rarely either have abortions or give birth to children they don't want. Unwanted pregnancy is a sensitive situation, and either way of resolving it risks alienating a large segment of the movie's potential audience, so filmmakers tend to avoid it altogether. Even when characters are depicted choosing childbirth over abortion, it is rarely portrayed as the result of strong ethical objections to abortion in principle, but rather as a "this is the right choice for me in these particular circumstances" decision.

Even when characters are depicted choosing childbirth over abortion, it is rarely portrayed as the result of strong ethical objections to abortion in principle, but rather as a "this is the right choice for me in these particular circumstances" decision.

While that's clearly correct, noting that demonstrates that you're not "objectively rational," whatever that means.

By the way, just to address the question of Apatow's own views on abortion, he appears to be strongly pro-choice, and not in the reluctant "it's bad, but it has to be legal" sense that Ross attributes to Will Saletan, but more in the fence-sitting "no one can say whether it's bad or good for anyone else" sense. Here's an interview with Apatow about the movie. Quote:

I am pro chose [sic] and I don’t think anyone should tell anyone else what to do with their bodies or their points of view. I think those decisions are very personal and no one has the answer, so I am pretty solid in that position.

The political poignancy of abortion is strongly based around the fact that it's repulsive in concrete terms but attractive in abstract libertarian and feminist terms.

Look at how people treat their pets versus how they treat their pork chops. There's a disjunction between visceral and distant morality, and we usually treat people that don't doublethink their way around it as loonies, like deep ecology types or the grossly desensitized.

Steve Sailer is right, but there's another argument too.

Women are the target audience for this movie. Unlike rich, status-seeking Dana Stevens, married to some second/third-generation Hollywood bigwig (I think the founder of AFI, the institute not the band), most women would like children.

This is why so few women have abortions in movies. It's instructive that both High Fidelity and Cider House were at least partially aimed at men. Certainly High Fidelity would not be thought of as the stereotypical women's movie. Not a chick flick.

What's the audience for women's movies? Mostly women in their thirties who have their fertility window closing fast. They are far more likely to want reproductive assistance, a loving husband, and respect/authority in their work life. Chick flicks that give them this fantasy mostly succeed. Those that don't, mostly don't.

Dana Stevens doesn't like the marketplace because it does not reflect her narrow, Hancock Park view of the world and how it should work: every life's detail taken care of by Consuela or Manuel, and limo rides to glamorous events. Why, a baby would interfere with her figure!

On a broader note the difficulties in the wildly consumerist age obsessed by status in getting married and having children seems staggering. It's why so few get married these days, stay married, and have kids. Social organizations that used to provide structure for doing so are fairly moribund in general society (church, volunteer organizations) and so contrary to the elite's point of view, the desire particularly among women for marriage and family is very strong.

Which is why the movie Knocked Up worked. It's why the anti-Marriage/Family characters express abortion as an option and are unsympathetic.

Dear Minipundit,

Respected by whom?

The Alan Guttmacher Institute is the research division of an agency (the Planned Parenthood Federation) that does a brisk trade in abortions. They have a vested interest, as does the Tobacco Institute. Their research product ought properly to be scrutinized verrry carefully and considered in the light of other research and statements of rebuttal. Off-hand citations to their public statements do not cut it.

Actually, I'd say that the abstract/concrete distinction is most relevant to the behavior of abortion opponents. It's easy for them to oppose abortion in the abstract or when it involves someone else's family, but when it's their wife or their daughter who becomes pregnant under difficult circumstances the issue suddenly becomes a whole lot more complicated. I remember Dan Quayle's famous interview with Larry King where King asked Quayle how he would react if his own 13-year-old daughter became pregnant and she wanted to have an abortion. Quayle responded that he'd support his daughter's decision. I think he later backtracked and claimed he'd misspoken or misunderstood the question or something, but I think the incident illustrates the dilemma many pro-lifers would face in that kind of situation.

It's why so few get married these days, stay married, and have kids.

Jim Rockford, where exactly do you live?

This debate between Ross and Dana Stevens is a good example of the male vs. female minds at work.
Hmmhmmmh, that's a tough one ... What could it possibly mean? Oh, wait a minute ... I think I've got it: It means: You're a woman.
In general, Dana takes everything personally, which is why she comes across as kind of dim: objective rationality doesn't really exist in her mental universe.

I almost can't believe I'm reading this stuff. Sailer is the most offensive sexist little pig I've come across in some time.

Mixner,

Unless my memory is playing terrible tricks on me, the question was posed in an interview with Marilyn Quayle, who said something to the effect that if their daughter was a minor under their roof, "she carries the child to term". IIRC, she was taken to task by select members of the punditocracy for said response.

but when it's their wife or their daughter who becomes pregnant under difficult circumstances the issue suddenly becomes a whole lot more complicated

As long as you are about the business of getting inside other people's heads, is it too much to suggest you may be...projecting?

Art Deco,

Planned Parenthood is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization that has a policy of providing reproductive health services to everyone regardless of income. The Alan Guttmacher Institute is also a nonprofit. The comparison with the Tobacco Institute is ridiculous.

And if you seriously think that AGI data is unreliable or distorted to favor the pro-choice movement, perhaps you could explain why that data is so widely cited by anti-abortion organizations, including the National Right To Life Committee, which I believe is the largest and most powerful pro-life organization in the country.

Art Deco,

Marilyn Quayle may have been asked the same question, but the interview I referred to was most definitely with Dan Quayle. Here's the stub of a New York Times editorial about it.

This debate between Ross and Dana Stevens is a good example of the male vs. female minds at work. Dana's opinion is driven by the fact that she had an abortion, while Ross has a masculine mind, so he doesn't even mention that and goes on trying to conduct the debate on the general and objective level.

Mr. Sailer,

I think this sort of statement would be more precise and cause less distraction if you stated that there is a taxonomy of criticism and commentary and that men and women so engaged produce the species thereof in different proportions and find them palatable in different proportions.

I don't care about Apatow's position on abortion. I do believe strongly, however, that the movie's refusal to say the word was weird and weaselly. And no, the fact that they tried to turn it into a joke doesn't excuse it, and didn't make it any less awkward.

Oh, so that Steve Sailer can have his ammunition to dismiss my opinion out of hand, four years ago I girlfriend and I decided to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Looking back it was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life, and I'm not sorry.

The comparison with the Tobacco Institute is ridiculous.

No, it is not.

That the Guttmacher Institute wangled non-profit status from the tax man is of no interest. The 'Foundation' that published Mother Jones magazine did likewise. It is no guarrantee of the care devoted to the Institute's research product, much less does it influence their conception of what problems are worth researching.

perhaps you could explain why that data is so widely cited by anti-abortion organizations

I do not know that it is.

That aside, my comment was on the structural position the Institute occupies and on the validity of citing its press release's as if it was a neutral party. It is not.

Mixner,

Do you have a transcript of the interview that would show the precise question he was asked and the precise answer he gave?

policy of providing reproductive health services to everyone regardless of income

Which is to say providing abortions and pushing contraceptives on youngsters behind the backs of their parents.

By the way, just to address the question of Apatow's own views on abortion, he appears to be strongly pro-choice, and not in the reluctant "it's bad, but it has to be legal" sense that Ross attributes to Will Saletan, but more in the fence-sitting "no one can say whether it's bad or good for anyone else" sense.

From the interview: "And part of what is interesting to me is that it’s two people trying to do the right thing and keep the baby."

That seems in keeping with the "naively pro-life" outlook of the movie.

Art Deco,

Do you have a transcript of the interview that would show the precise question he was asked and the precise answer he gave?

Here

I do not know that it is.

It is true. See here, for example. In fact, the National Right To Life Committee even claims that the AGI's abortion statistics are more accurate than the government's.

I should add that there is good reason to think that the true number of abortions is significantly higher than even AGI's figures, given the difficulty of counting non-surgical abortions. And if the "morning-after" pill sometimes works as an abortifacient rather than as a contraceptive, as many pro-lifers claim, the true number of abortions is higher still.

"I almost can't believe I'm reading this stuff. Sailer is the most offensive sexist little pig I've come across in some time."

Ouch, I don't want to be called that. Ok everybody, for the record: there are ABSOLUTELY no statistical differences in any conceivable way between men and women. Like legos, they are always, and in every possible interchangeable.

Do I pass?

Ouch, I don't want to be called that. Ok everybody, for the record: there are ABSOLUTELY no statistical differences in any conceivable way between men and women. Like legos, they are always, and in every possible interchangeable.

Do I pass?

You know, if you want to be taken seriously, take the time and care to construct an argument. No one ever suggested that there were no differences between women and men. No one. What has been suggested-- correctly-- is that saying that women inherently produce illogical, emotional arguments because they are women is a) sexist and b)absurd. That is in no way whatsoever equal to saying there are no differences between men and women. And the quote you put up doesn't even address that notion.

I mean, really. There are lots of blogs with lots of worthless comments, but even in that context, yours is a doozy. Your comment is just about the most pathetic strawman I've ever encountered.

Mixner,

That is one not very controversial datum. The National Right to Life Committee compared the Guttmacher Institute's claims with those of the Centers for Disease Control, it did not cite them alone. They noted that the Guttmacher Institute's counts were higher and collected and enumerated differently. The Committee made no statement about which agency's counts were more precise.

I stand corrected on the interview with Dan Quayle. No, I do not think his response was intelligently thought out or speaks well of him.

This debate between Ross and Dana Stevens is a good example of the male vs. female minds at work. Dana's opinion is driven by the fact that she had an abortion, while Ross has a masculine mind, so he doesn't even mention that and goes on trying to conduct the debate on the general and objective level.

Posted by Steve Sailer | June 9, 2007 6:39 PM

Sailer, you have got to be kidding me.

Posted by SomeCallMeTim | June 9, 2007 6:43 PM

The mind of a blank slater always reacts the same way when met with hbd logic: blinking incomprehension.


The mind of a blank slater always reacts the same way when met with hbd logic: blinking incomprehension.

Says the man who openly admitsthat he believes white people should be dominant over non-white people in the US.

"No one ever suggested that there were no differences between women and men." (Freddie)

Spell out some for us.

"Your comment is just about the most pathetic strawman I've ever encountered." (Freddie)

I think we found you another one, N1: It's "strawperson" you caveman.

Feminism licenses feminists like Dana Stevens to be so self-absorbed they become laughably obtuse, as in Dana's why-don't-I-get-war-movies quote above. Women tend to be smarter about noticing statistical differences between the sexes than men. Dana's grandmother would have understood with no trouble why she didn't like war movies but most men do -- "Oh, that's just the way men are." But, Dana, being marinated in feminism's insistence on no differences between the sexes, is baffled by the whole question.

saying that women inherently produce illogical, emotional arguments because they are women is a) sexist and b)absurd.

In my experience, people of both sexes inherently produce illogical, emotional arguments. It takes effort to argue rationally; pointing and screeching is the human default.

But.

There also seems to be a strong tendency for women to prefer (more so than men) emotional arguments.

Yeah, I guess noticing that makes me a sexist pig.

Apropos of Sailer's faux pas in noticing that Dana Stevens reacts like a woman, today's NY Times Mag has an article about Larry Summers of Harvard.

"Sympathetic characters very rarely have abortions in movies because people don't like to think about abortion."

In order for this to be true, you'd have to offer a representative sampling of films in which characters have had abortions.

Can you?

I can think of only one, and not an American film. Hint: great director. Which is it?

"while Ross has a masculine mind, so he doesn't even mention that and goes on trying to conduct the debate on the general and objective level."

Did Stevens mention the fact that she's had an abortion? If she hasn't mentioned the fact that she had an abortion, why is it relevant at all?

Would it be relevant to ask whether or not Steve Sailer or Ross Douthat have ever impregnated a woman and caused her to get an abortion?

And, in anticipation of the fact that Sailer will accuse me of bringing this up (because I have a female mind and can't think logically and objectively), asking this question is every bit as germane to the discussion as Sailer bringing up the fact that Stevens has had an abortion, and that her having had an abortion is relevant to her discussion of this film.

BTW, although I haven't seen the film & don't intend to, I agree that white middle class women who get knocked up w/o being pregnant will at least seriously consider the prospect of abortion, and if the film doesn't deal with that, then it's a piece of commercial fluff. Oh wait, it's a Hollywood product, so by defintion it's a piece of commercial fluff. Perhaps Stevens can be criticized for taking a piece of commercial fluff seriously, but not for an insight that strikes me as, well, rational.

I don't really care whether there are statistical differences between men and women, but I'm sure that this argument isn't an example of one.

Sailer says, without any explanation, that Douthat is conducting the debate with "rational objectivity," because he is a man, while Stevens is reduced to personal affront, because she is a woman. This is profoundly idiotic. They are talking about their interpretations of a film, which necessarily invokes their wholly subjective reactions. They both have different reactions, neither of which was likely shared by the vast majority of the movie-going public. The entire disagreement seems to hinge largely on the fact that Stevens misread Douthat's passage about how the movie is "naively pro-choice." I did too, until he explained it in this post, because it was not very clear or well-written.

Sailer made no effort to show exactly how Ross's argument was more "rational," or indeed how an argument about the appropriate emotional reaction to a movie could possibly be framed in terms of rationality. He approaches everything with the same single-minded zeal to speak truth to the crushingly oppressive forces of political correctness (he actually quotes Solzhenitsyn on his website--nice). It didn't matter to him what Ross and Dana actually said, since no matter what it was going to be about the male and female minds.

"Blinking incomprehension," as one of Sailer's admirers put it above, is the appropriate response--not to his biting logic, but to the tedious stupidity of bar chatter cliches masquerading as "brave" truths.

What all of this DOES show, of course, is that men are much more likely than women to CLAIM that their arguments are based on "objective rationality." That doesn't mean they are.

So I just saw the film last night, thanks in good part to this blog discussion ... gross-out in parts, but a lot of fun! As to whether it "seriously consider[s] the prospect of abortion"--well, it's a comedy about pregnancy, not a drama about abortion, so it doesn't spend that much time on the subject. I suppose the question is whether you believe that the stylized minute or two dealing with the subject is an adequate representation of reality. I could buy it. I have more problems with 1) our heroine's parents aren't even mentioned come the time to give birth; 2) our hero's stoner buddies are at the hospital. Okayyy ...

Meanwhile, for Steve Sailer, who cares about such things: did you catch that our slacker pothead hero is Jewish? Subtext: a tale of triumphant assimiliation!--in America (and Canada), all races and creeds can become genial idiots. Genes? Culture? Who cares!--pass the bong.

It also speaks to Sailerish theories of Affordable Family Formation--she works for E!, and still has to live with her sister; and at the end of the movie, they need to move to East LA to find a place cheap enough to rent. Doubtless they'll only have a second child when she starts up the affiliate show for E! in Salt Lake City.

Yeah, I guess noticing that makes me a sexist pig.

Once again, the bizarre cognitive dissonance two-step of the Sailerites. You've said something that is by definition sexist, but you object to being called sexist. This is in the same vein as Sailer-- he hates being called racist, despite rigorously advocating that black and Hispanic people are inherently stupid and criminal. By what possible definition could that not be racist? You guys care too much about the stigma of the words racist, sexist or bigot. You've unapologetically embraced those opinions. Don't be a coward. Stand up for your bigotry. But don't expect me to listen to your flat sexism or racism and then refrain from calling you sexists or racists cause you don't like it.

The most enormously bogus aspect of this bogus thread of thinking is that making an appeal to emotion favors getting an abortion. That, of course, is nonsense-- the emotional thing to do would be to keep a baby. The coldly rational thing to do would be to abort if aborting was the right thing to do. It is the pro-life side that is constantly--constantly--making appeals to emotion. Grown ups understand that life is complicated, that an unwanted pregnancy can be a horror for everyone involved, and that sometimes adults need to be able to make difficult decisions for their own well-being and the well-being of others.

But of course, if your Steve Sailer, you can just continue to argue through assertion and say that your belief is "objective" and "rational", while your opponent's beliefs are emotional.

The coldly rational thing to do would be to abort if aborting was the right thing to do.

Direct and intentional killing of the innocent never is.

I don't really care whether there are statistical differences between men and women, but I'm sure that this argument isn't an example of one.

That's a curious statement. How can you be certain about something you admit to taking no interest in?

Sailer says, without any explanation, that Douthat is conducting the debate with "rational objectivity," because he is a man, while Stevens is reduced to personal affront, because she is a woman.

Actually, Sailer said:

'This debate between Ross and Dana Stevens is a good example of the male vs. female minds at work. Dana's opinion is driven by the fact that she had an abortion, while Ross has a masculine mind, so he doesn't even mention that and goes on trying to conduct the debate on the general and objective level.'

There is a difference between being a man and having a male mind. Sailer himself has blogged about how some men and women, particularly artists and homosexuals, display mental characteristics that are more generally found in members of the other sex. Tom Wolfe has an inordinate interest in fashion, to cite but one of his examples. Gay men read maps like women, to cite another. (Google the research on that last one, too, if you don't believe him.) And, of course, there are plenty of people who are neither artists nor gay whose minds fall more toward the middle than the poles of the male-female spectrum.

By using the terms "female mind" and "male mind" instead of "woman" and "man," Sailer was qualifying his statement. In other words, he wasn't saying that Dana Stevens argued as she did because she is a woman, and that Ross argued as he did because he is a man. He was saying that, generally speaking, any random woman is more likely to come to a debate from a personal perspective relative to any random man, and that this particular debate followed that pattern. Which it seems to, in my opinion. And if you disagree, that's fine. But why twist his words?

What I don't get is why so many people will gladly admit, when confronted with the research, that a woman is generally more likely than a man to use landmarks when giving directions, for example... yet, when confronted with examples every day of women - in general - being more sensitive, emotional, or likely to personalize things than men, they pretend not to notice and condemn, in a sanctimonious fury, those who do.

Freddie,

The problem is we "Sailerites" and people like you (I'm not sure what you prefer to be called) have completely different definitions of sexist and racist.

You think it is sexist and racist to notice and point out any differences between the sexes and the races, regardless of scientific evidence. Which is insane to us. Is it sexist to point out that men are, generally speaking, physically stronger than women? You can do tests that will show as much. So why is it sexist to admit reality? Similarly, is it racist to point out that whites score, on average, higher than blacks on IQ tests? Again, any IQ test yo do will show as much. (Any IQ test will also show Asians scoring, on average, higher than whites.) So what you call "racist" we call admitting reality.

As for what we think is sexist or racist, we tend to define that as treating someone differently on the basis of his or her race or sex. Which is a very different thing from noticing and discussing statistical differences.

Grown ups understand that life is complicated, that an unwanted pregnancy can be a horror for everyone involved, and that sometimes adults need to be able to make difficult decisions for their own well-being and the well-being of others.

Grown-ups also take responsibility for their children--which generally doesn't include killing them because they (the children) are inconvenient.

To tie this post in with the one about the MSM and immigration, Ann Coulter noted in her recent column that if it weren't for tens of millions of abortions in recent decades we might not have such demand for foreign labor.

You think it is sexist and racist to notice and point out any differences between the sexes and the races, regardless of scientific evidence.

The racist part comes when you infer value judgments from statistical differences -- i.e. people with dark skin are inherently intellectually inferior to white people, and thus detrimental to our society, because of discrepancies in IQ scores. That kind of absurd analysis of that kind of data can only result from racist assumptions (for one, it ignores the more pressing evidence that discrepancies within the races far outweigh differences between races, and thus IQ is caused less by race than by other more pressing factors).

Same for folks who place value judgements on the differences between men and women -- ie the idea that Dana Stevens isn't worth reading because she's a woman and woman tend to think in personal terms while men think impersonally, a difference you then extrapolate to mean Dana Stevens is irrational and therefore not capable of worthwhile analysis. Deborah Tannen has built a career around discussing the differences between men and women, but few would consider her a sexist because she doesn't draw value-based conclusions from her observations of gender differences.

Diana: from Stevens' article...

"As the mother of a 1-year-old daughter, I think I can say that if she turned up pregnant in her early 20s under exactly Alison's circumstances—single, barely acquainted with the father, financially dependent (she lives with her married sister), weeping miserably at her first sonogram—I would encourage her to at least consider the possibility of abortion, without in any way impugning the "realness" of the child should she decide to keep it. In that same hypothetical conversation (which I hope to forestall by lecturing her about birth control till she squirms), I would certainly tell my beloved girl that, like most of my close female friends (and like Barbara Ehrenreich–see her remarkable 2004 Times op-ed on this subject), I had an abortion myself around that age, and while it was far from the high point of the decade, it's a decision I look back on now with neither anguish nor regret. (Any readers planning to send me hate mail can direct their letters to the Supreme Court, which, touchingly, still insists on paper correspondence.)"

Art Deco,

Direct and intentional killing of the innocent never is [right].

Why not? What about "indirect" killing of the innocent? Is that also never right, or is it sometimes right? If the latter, why is "direct" killing never right but "indirect" killing sometimes right? And what, exactly, is the difference between "direct" and "indirect" killing, anyway?

Why would this have anything to do with Apatow's politics of abortion? This is just a movie. We all have friends that feel strongly about this issuemone way or another. Why is it a political statement in any way shape or for for an attractive professional woman to hold the ethic that abortion is murder any more than it would be if she was pro-choice? It does seem that "choice" in this context means only choosing "schmamorcion". Except, if she had been, there wouldn't have been this movie, because the premise would have been sucked out of it faster than a first trimester fetus in Berkeley.

Invocations of "objectivity" and "rationality" are usually means to end arguments, authoritarian in tone; the argument from experience--of prudence, phronesis--lends itself better to democratic debate. To the extent Dana Stevens thinks of her own experience as an unanswerable argument, I disagree with her; to the extent that she finds it a relevant argument, I agree with her. Arguments that avoid emotion are also inhuman, and unpersuasive; both sides of the choice/life are right to evoke emotion in their arguments--though emotion without logic as its complement is also unpersuasive.

Character also matters in debate--character is, and should be, persuasive. Ad hominen attacks are legitimate means of persuasions. Sole reliance on ad hominem is also unpersuasive, but it should be part of the arsenal of rhetoric.

Sailer's opinion of Stevens is insultingly stupid not just because he thinks there are sex differences in patterns of emotional reaction, which of course there are, but because he somehow thinks that this cuts against female objectivity and rationality. Stevens's emotive reaction to war -- that it can be astonishing and disgusting that massive groups of men are trying to exterminate other massive groups are men over abstractions -- is simply good judgment. The fact that men get psyched up by the depiction of slaughter may be the best proof that the untutored emotional reactions of men are dangerously irrational, and that moral progress, in this respect at least, requires the feminization of male sentiment SO THAT men can behave more rationally. The fact that Sailer seems either to not notice or to give a pass to distinctively male irrationalities is proof of his sexism. Sexism is, of course, a failure of objectivity.

"Don't be a coward. Stand up for your bigotry." (Freddie)

Freddie, I'm sure, considers sexism and racism to be a small step below child molestation, but he wants people not only to passively accept this malicious label, but to stick their chests out and say, "Yes, I molest children, and I'm damn proud."

Steve Sailer--a coward--that's rich. The cowards are the PC sheep like Freddie.

Will Wilkinson - "the untutored emotional reactions of men are dangerously irrational, and that moral progress, in this respect at least, requires the feminization of male sentiment SO THAT men can behave more rationally. The fact that Sailer seems either to not notice or to give a pass to distinctively male irrationalities is proof of his sexism"

Priceless!

That was a parody....wasnt it?

Klug,

Thanks for pointing out my omission. If she mentioned it, then fine, it's relevant. But I still don't see how this is an example of a woman speaking merely from emotion, and men speaking (of course) from admirable objectivity. One of the arguments that anti-choice men make is that men are part of the abortion debate as begetters of children, and as former fetuses. You can't claim that men are equally invested in this highly fraught issue and equally objective. Can you?

I read Sailer's blog a lot. He repeatedly claims that women are "more emotional" than men without defining what this means. If men are more objective and less prone to emotional thinking than men, then why do they commit the vast majority of violent crime?

Back to the issue of personal experience and objectivity. Sailer has spoken of the fact that he's adopted. Might this color his feelings towards abortion, despite his possession of a masculine, objective mind?

But enough about Sailer, let's talk about this movie, and Ross Douthat's caricaturing of Dana Steven's legitimate objections to the abortion issue. I don't have to see the film in order to recognize that it's based on flimsy lies. All I have to do is read Ross Douthat:

"Um, that's precisely why I said it's naively pro-life - because it doesn't really acknowledge the existence of a pro-choice case that isn't associated with horrible mothers and misognyist roommates."

Um, isn't that what Stevens is criticizing herself? That the movie (which she calls a "delightful comedy" and mostly praises) presents abortion as something horribly deviant, rather than as a rational choice that millions of women have made?

And isn't this what has enraged Steve Sailer? That Stevens has -- correctly -- brought up the fact that the majority of Americans regard abortion as a rational choice, under certain circumstances?

I have asked Steve Sailer to provide examples of movies in which ANY abortions were depicted, or even referred to, so that we can discuss this point: "The reason so few sympathetic characters have abortions in movies is because movies are a visual medium. They encourage the visual imagination in the audience. What happens to an unborn baby being aborted, however, is too horrible to imagine visually."

I only know of one movie in which there was any mention of abortion at all (except that recent Brit film, the name of which I forgot). It was Ingmar Bergman's SCENES FROM A MARRIAGE. If memory serves, a long-married couple jointly decides to abort their 3rd (or 4th?) kid. It a wrenching & sad decision, told with a maturity that is impossible to imagine in Hollywood. No one is a villain in this movie & the wife, played by Liv Ullmann, is very shattered. Yeah, progressive Sweden, yada yada. But, unlike Steve Sailer, Ingmar Bergman is a great artist with sympathy for the human condition, and Liv Ullman is shown as a conflicted woman who made a sad, but rational decision, and not a filthy slut hussy who can't think with anything other than her vagina.

One more point, then I'm done. "What happens to an unborn baby being aborted, however, is too horrible to imagine visually."

Personally, I find the idea of a man snapping another man's neck in his hands too horrible to imagine visually. I saw Mel Gibson do exactly this in one of the Lethal Weapon films (one or two, I gave up after that). The scene made me sick, and I never liked Gibson after that.

It didn't stop these crappy films from being huge box office draws. They introduced Gibson to the huge mainstream American audience and made him a big action star. Snapping a man's neck? Just fun and games, that's all....Having an honest discussion about abortion?

Disgusting, and any woman who disagrees is doing so because she is constitutionally incapable of thinking logically...

Will Wilkinson claims:

"Stevens's emotive reaction to war -- that it can be astonishing and disgusting that massive groups of men are trying to exterminate other massive groups are men over abstractions -- is simply good judgment... The fact that Sailer seems either to not notice or to give a pass to distinctively male irrationalities is proof of his sexism."

Will, being disingenuous makes you sound obtuse. You know perfectly well that I've written at vast length about the stupidity of war and that I'm the film critic for a leading anti-war journal, The American Conservative. For example, during last year's anti-Iran war fever, I concluded one posting on the growing pointlessness of war:

"As former war correspondent Fred Reed notes, after decades of following the sounds of guns, it occurred to him that war, important as it seems at the time, is just something males _do_."

Dana's feminism-empowered self-absorbed cluelessness about the appeal of war movies is the opposite of Fred's great insight.

Let me also point out that I have been a relentless critic of the pseudo-high-mindedness that's pervasive in the male-dominated intellectual sphere, for example in discussions of immigration, where masculine abstraction (as so often seen among libertarians) has proven intellectually stultifying.

Influenced enormously by my wife, I've worked hard to incorporate practical female perspectives and priorities in my thinking -- for example, that immigration policy has an influence on where you can afford to live, who your children's classmates will be, how many children you will have, and who your descendents will marry. (Ross and Reihan will likely eventually surpass me in this regard, considering how realistic their perspectives are already as young bachelors!)

A discussion of the principle of double effect may be found at

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/double-effect/

o one is a villain in this movie & the wife, played by Liv Ullmann, is very shattered. Yeah, progressive Sweden, yada yada. But, unlike Steve Sailer, Ingmar Bergman is a great artist with sympathy for the human condition, and Liv Ullman is shown as a conflicted woman who made a sad, but rational decision,

"A long face is not a moral disinfectant."
-C.S. Lewis

The racist part comes when you infer value judgments from statistical differences -- i.e. people with dark skin are inherently intellectually inferior to white people, and thus detrimental to our society, because of discrepancies in IQ scores.

In the interests of clarity, I think that the argument is that present-tense distinctions in psychological test scores provide evidence in favor of certain theses about social relations, e.g. the legitimacy of strata of rights and obligations or the futility of certain types of social policy. There are normative judgments encoded in these thesis, but they antedate an analysis of the test scores and are not derived from the test scores.

IIRC, Patrick Buchanan offered in 1994 an opinion concerning the work of Murray and Herrnstein in which he said that they had mistakenly identified the character with intelligence. He was taken to task (IIRC by Robert Wright) for taking issue with their implicit value judgments and not taking issue with their interpreteation of empirical phenomena.

Art Deco, the tedious explanation of the principle of double effect that you linked to contains a tedious catalog of criticisms of the principle of double effect. Many people rightly find those and other criticisms persuasive.

jenny

Art Deco,

I'm aware of the principle of dou