« The Cheney Primary | Main | Yes, I Am Not a Libertarian »

Our European Future

19 Jun 2007 03:50 pm

James Poulos and Rod Dreher think I'm misreading Matt Taibbi's cri de coeur about the lameness of liberalism, and maybe I am. I think they're misreading the contemporary American left, though, if they think there's any kind of significant fusionism waiting to happen between disillusioned lefties and the anti-Bush Right. Sure, on the margins you can find some left-wingers "experiencing the [same] sort of nauseous reappraisal of Democratic orthodoxy as certain young conservatives are concerning post-Bush Republican orthodoxy," as Poulos puts it. But most of the smart young lefties I know aren't interested in some grand convergence with disillusioned populist-conservatives; they're interested in harnessing the kind of "office-park populism" that gave us Jim Webb and Sherrod Brown and Jon Tester in order to dramatically expand social democracy in the United States. For some, this means a return the old-time religion (a higher minimum wage, strong unions, government jobs programs, etc.); for others, it means a smarter, more growth-friendly form of social democracy (think Denmark, rather than France); for most, it means some combination thereof. But the overall model is still bigger government plus cultural permissiveness, not some kind of "small is beautiful" left-conservatism out to defend the permanent things against the ravages of modernity.

The left's vision of an expanded welfare state as both the answer to populist anxieties and the guardian of social liberalism is a perfectly coherent worldview, and it's one that I think has a good chance of accomplishing many of its objectives over the next few decades. (When I say that things are going well for liberals right now, that's what I mean - not just the Dems might trounce the GOP in '08, but that the overall political climate is as favorable to social democracy as it's been in thirty years.) But it's not the kind of worldview that's likely to want, or need, an alliance with the partisans of crunchy conservatism and putting Kansas First. Rod Dreher would find things to like about a more Europeanized United States - there'd be more concern about the environment; more vacation days for working parents; lots of anti-consumerist rhetoric floating around; and so forth. But it would be a defeat, not a victory, for his side of things, and all the failings of the contemporary Republican Party shouldn't convince anyone otherwise.

Comments (38)

The left's vision of an expanded welfare state as both the answer to populist anxieties and the guardian of social liberalism is a perfectly coherent worldview...

Do you really think so, Ross? In my dark moments, I agree with you. But the one thing that keeps me hopeful is that populism, of any form, is unavoidably tied to localities, to groups, to places, all of which have--whether they consciously recognize it or not--identities and structures and forms of life which go along with their interests. So each and every time any kind of genuine populism appears, is cannot avoid pushing forward a sense of "we"-ness, a sense of "this-is-the-way-we-do-things-here"-ness. Now, of course, the-way-we-do-things-here could be socially liberal. But it can't be completely given over to "cultural permissiveness," because such individualistic do-your-own-thing attitudes are fundamentally incompatible with the necessarily identitarian/communitarian aspect of populism.

So, as I see things, those progressives on the left who really genuinely believe that an expanded welfare state alone will simultaneously answer populist anxieties and guard social liberalism (as opposed to those who are simply good old-fashioned liberals) are eventually going to be forced to compromise on one or the other; either their populist language will become fake, or social liberalism will be moderated somewhat. Unfortunately, the likely compromise will be the former, rather than the latter. But at least that gives us (I think eight or so!) left conservatives an edge to work with.

The Cold War categories of right and left have proven more resilient than I would have thought ten years ago. In the end, Bush was just too unifying a figure for everyone on the left. But when he exits, who knows? The old categories and coalitions don't make any sense.

Douthat dismisses old-time religion (a higher minimum wage, strong unions . . .)

No room for blue-collar riff-raff in office park liberalism.

I'll agree with you on this one. Dreher and "crunchy cons" may find common cause with liberals on environmental and other family-friendly benefits, but liberals will take one look at his agenda with respect to religion and sexual freedom & privacy issues, and will run from the room screaming.

Regarding Poulos' post, how can you make heads or tails of it? How about a contest where you ask your readers to diagram this sentence:
"As young leftists recover a wounded common sense about the putative benefits of getting into an S&M relationship with the price-tagged, pleasure-pimped System in exchange for a golden ticket to being Sexually Active, they will grow more truly toward the Right; as young conservatives increasingly detach from the corporate host which has come to depart -- in diversity programming, employee welfare programs, and product/service ethos, they will grow more truly toward the Left. "
Even a coherent paraphrase would be a challenge.

I'm not so sure. Just because conservative free-market reform has been difficult under the GOP, you'll find that effective welfare state expansion (rather than mere bloating of existing institutions) is hard for Democrats to achieve.

There is far more political demand for low gas prices than there is for a serious attempt to roll back global warming. There are even more obstacles to the socialization of healthcare than there was in 1993. The unionized sectors of the economy are weakening by the day, and so the interest-group basis for comprehensive welfarism is further eroded. Put that together with the expansion of interest groups that have built up in 25 years of a deregulated economy, and it's become much harder to shift the ball in the liberal direction.

Sure, a mexican regional bloc vote in the south-west might be increasingly influential with its power concentrated through the electoral college and geographical congressional representation, but in so far as anyone expects there to be support for wholesale social democratic solutions to displace individual responsibility, I think they'll be disappointed.

An expanded welfare state? How? With what money? The government can't possibly afford what it's already committed to. Do you raise taxes to pay for more spending? Good luck with that. Look, progressives would love to launch the next phase of welfare-statism, re-calibrated to look something like Denmark or Scandinavia, but this is a pipe dream. The US government HAS NO MORE MONEY.

Your response may be "We'll get the money by dismantling the old New Deal and use the funds to build the new New Deal..." But that ignores politics, especially the politics of our era, when single-issue interest groups dominate the landscape and wage war on behalf of their programs, and where a proposal to end a program, or even reduce the rate of growth of it, is savaged as a "reckless assault" and "unwise cut" that will bring about the end of the Republic. And that phenomenon applies not just to Medicare or defense spending, but to damn near all federal programs, no matter how miniscule. In short, no one wants their ox gored.

I'm afraid the opportunity for the type of re-structuring of American society that you're hoping for--a large but refocused and presumably more efficient centralized welfare state--has passed. If anything, we're heading for a budget crisis that will, I suspect, result in a significant reduction in the size of the federal role in American society. The states and localities will be forced to take up some of the slack, but many needs heretofore covered by the government will simply go unmet, at least over the medium term.

Ross writes “The left's vision of an expanded welfare state as both the answer to populist anxieties and the guardian of social liberalism is a perfectly coherent worldview...”

The fatal flaw in such a model is pointed out by Russell Arben Fox when he states,

“But it can't be completely given over to "cultural permissiveness," because such individualistic do-your-own-thing attitudes are fundamentally incompatible with the necessarily identitarian/communitarian aspect of populism.”

This reminds me of Paul Krugman’s book the Great Unraveling. How does the left expect people to pledge fealty to public pension systems and a social safety net for the poor, when we don’t expect fathers to take care of their children, or husbands & wives to understand marriage as a sacred lifelong bond?

Europe’s response to this type of moral environment is death spiral birthrates and an inability to assimilate new immigrants. When you ask people to sacrifice as part of society you have to provide answers for that societies reason detra beyond preserving the existing bureaucratic regime.

How does the left expect people to pledge fealty to public pension systems and a social safety net for the poor, when we don’t expect fathers to take care of their children, or husbands & wives to understand marriage as a sacred lifelong bond?

Bingo, Fitz. You've touched on one of the central intersections of social conservatism and economic egalitarianism. Of course, the reality of this intersection doesn't mean that American liberals will discover European-style Christian democracy, especially since even the European left has to a degree abandoned it in favor of Blairite neoliberalism. In all likelihood, American liberals will just take a different, less populist, more culturally permissive road towards their goals. But if so, then that hopefully means those of us working the populist angle won't have our arguments stolen out from under us.

How does the left expect people to pledge fealty to public pension systems and a social safety net for the poor, when we don’t expect fathers to take care of their children, or husbands & wives to understand marriage as a sacred lifelong bond?

Europe’s response to this type of moral environment is death spiral birthrates and an inability to assimilate new immigrants

Non-sequitur. European divorce rates are much lower than American ones (as is the proportion of single parent families). Inside America, it is true, that those states with the lowest divorce rates ("blue states" on average) have the greatest commitment to public systems. But these are also the states that publicly care the least about moral issues.

Stuart

"Non-sequitur"?

Rather dismissive...No?

I fail to see how your assertions about divorce & Europe style socialized systems refute my contention.

P.S. Europe also has overall lower marriage rates (that effect % of divorce) & does not have our underclass.

Fitz,

Then let me spell it out for you. Europeans seem to be even less supportive of the traditional model of the nuclear family and lifelong marriage than you think Americans are. And yet Europeans also seem to be more supportive than Americans of a strong social safety net. And in America, the welfare state has risen as the traditional values you favor have declined. Intuitively, your argument doesn't make sense to me either. I would expect people to favor a larger role for the state in providing social welfare, not a smaller one, as the role of the family declines.

Re: There are even more obstacles to the socialization of healthcare than there was in 1993.

As far as I can tell no one (except maybe Dennis Kucinich) is trying to socialize healthcare. A number of people, including some Republicans (Romeny and Schwatzeneggar) are trying to universalize it. that's NOT the same thing as socializing it. And why are there more obstacles now than in 1993? Quite the contrary I would think: More and more buisinesses are getting rolled by their health insurance bills and would welcome relief, and there's no other hope on the horizon while in 1993 HMOs were an alternative potential for relief. And of course job insecurity is much greater now than in 1993, and there are more people working as private contarctors, and they have a devil of time getting good health insurance unless they are quite young and in perfect health.

Re: The government can't possibly afford what it's already committed to.

Don't be silly. America is rich country. We've somehow managed to afford a hugely expensive war. I suspect we could afford the domestic equivalent.

Re: The US government HAS NO MORE MONEY.

So what? The government is not a producer of wealth anyway. It's the American nation that counts. Do you think America is broke? Quite the opposite I would say: the nation as a whole is rich as a partying god.

Re: states and localities will be forced to take up some of the slack, but many needs heretofore covered by the government will simply go unmet,

Oh good grief, that won't happen because it would cost politicians votes. Politicians will never do anything that will get them tossed out of office by outraged voters. They'll just raise taxes on some group of people who are too few to vote them out. You know, like the rich? Not necessarily an income tax (though I fully expect the income cap on FICA taxes to be lifted), but maybe a VAT which ultimately, and rather stealthily, and very effectively, picks the pickets at the top of the economic pyramid.

Mixner

Well, thanks for the spelling.

I think my original point; (that so many have pointed out) is that a large social welfare state & a weak family formation model are ultimently uncompatable.

That is: it is an unsustainable trend.

Fitz,

The fact is that in both Europe and the U.S. the social safety net has expanded as traditional "family values" have declined. That contradicts your thesis.

JonF,

I don't think Ross was using "socialize" to mean a complete government takeover of health care, but rather a substantially greater government role in funding and regulating health care. The obstacles to greater government funding seem pretty clear. Medicare is headed for bankruptcy in around a decade. A massive expansion of government health care funding is likely to make that problem even worse.

"Rod Dreher would find things to like about a more Europeanized United States - there'd be more concern about the environment; more vacation days for working parents; lots of anti-consumerist rhetoric floating around; and so forth. But it would be a defeat, not a victory, for his side of things, and all the failings of the contemporary Republican Party shouldn't convince anyone otherwise."

OTOH, have the Bush years really constituted a victory for Dreher's side of things? If not, what contemporary politician would represent such a victory?

European divorce rates are much lower than American ones (as is the proportion of single parent families).

Do you have the almanac handy where you acquired that datum? The last occasion I had to consult some statistical tables on the subject, the proportion of western European children born as bastards was fairly similar to that of the United States. By divorce rate, do you mean an attrition rate for marriages or the frequency of divorce in the population at large?

Inside America, it is true, that those states with the lowest divorce rates ("blue states" on average) have the greatest commitment to public systems. But these are also the states that publicly care the least about moral issues

There are a number of confounding variables at work there.

The fact is that in both Europe and the U.S. the social safety net has expanded as traditional "family values" have declined. That contradicts your thesis.

The point is that Europe's social welfare system is not sustainable over the long term. They are facing larger fiscal crises sooner than the U.S. is with regard to our entitlement programs, and we are facing some major challenges in that regard. The social welfare programs only work (as they were implemented after WWII) when there are more productive workers than there are people on the receiving end. Family breakdown creates fewer workers in the younger generations, many of whom cannot be as productive when they become adults, as well as more people taking out of the system via Medicaid and Medicare.

I think "cultural permissiveness" is an unfortunately loaded term to employ for what is really more like "social libertarianism" mixed with gender egalitarianism. Its borderline bad faith to pretend that liberals think that everyone is entitled to do anything they think might increase their happiness. Liberals have different norms than conservatives. They do not believe that anything goes.

Anyway, I think RAF's diagnosis of populism is right on but I don't find his prognosis regarding social liberalism convincing. RAF's view (as I read it) that liberalism will inevitably conflict with populism/communitarianism appears to be based on a normative view of a liberalism that I think is mistaken. As I mentioned above, I think it is absurd to posit that social liberals are committed to some kind of principal of permissiveness. Liberals have strong views about what should and should not be condoned. The notion that liberals believe in permissiveness, in my view, is rooted in the fact that liberals think that certain things --- such as homosexuality and gender equality --- that are frowned upon by traditional values should be accepted. But that is not blanket permissiveness, its a different set of norms that local communities may come to accept or reject. To predict whether some, most, or all American communities will come to accept such norms requires, I think, a much more fact intensive and particularized kind of argument.

I do think RAF is right to suggest that increases in centralized power --- whether that power rests in the hands of the state (in the event of an expanded welfare state) or in the hands of cosmopolitan capitalists --- conflicts with populism. However, that insight should be disentangled from a critique of liberalism.

The last occasion I had to consult some statistical tables on the subject, the proportion of western European children born as bastards was fairly similar to that of the United States.

If I'm not mistaken, France no longer distinguishes between bastards and non-bastards.

Really, the idea of bastardy, or illegitimate children, and its stigma, deserves extinction. Still, one occasionally hears the odd reactionary calling for a revivial of the stigma attached to bastardy...

The point is that Europe's social welfare system is not sustainable over the long term. They are facing larger fiscal crises sooner than the U.S...

This is really the most salient fact of this thread. They are looking at 200% debt/gdp by 2050 (albeit, debt structured more advantageously than ours). We are not far behind and have a host of compounding problems as well.

We are heading towards junk-bond sovereign credit too if we don't shape up. If/when that happens things like roads and schools and cops are going to look like luxuries, expensive programs and hasty military campaigns a thing of the past.

Funny nobody seems to be discussing raising taxes and cutting the military though. If we upped our top bracket to somewhere around Clinton levels and then dropped our military expenditures to around $300b (or the sum total EU25) we might be able to start thinking about realistically servicing our debt and creating sustainable yet ambitious programs (we already spend a great deal on welfare as it is).

I would suggest starting with a complete pullout from Iraq, then get rid of the Marines, and all manned-aircraft programs :)

To JonF:

Budget deficits matter. National debt matters. Currently, our national budget is financed by spending the Social Security surplus, by taxes, and by massive borrowing. We must borrow because our voters and the politicians whom they elect want far more in government services and defense spending than they are willing to pay for in taxes. In other words, we can't afford what we already get in government activity. When you factor in the staggering future entitlement program expenditures that the Treasury is on the hook for, you have an unsustainable--and unstable--fiscal situation.

Go to the GAO or Congressional Budget Office websites and read their numerous reports on this situation.

I'm not saying that Ross' vision is unattainable, period. I'm saying it's unattainable now, given our current fiscal and political structures, and the American public isn't likely to change those unless and until it absolutely has to--until the current system can go no further. And when will that be? When the fiscal situation becomes untenable, and the tough choices can no longer be kicked down the road.

As I mentioned above, I think it is absurd to posit that social liberals are committed to some kind of principal of permissiveness.

True enough. Academia is one of the most over-regulated arenas. The permissiveness is mostly with regard to matters revolving around sexual behavior. But the point still stands even with that qualifier.

Finn
“ I think it is absurd to posit that social liberals are committed to some kind of principal of permissiveness. Liberals have strong views about what should and should not be condoned.

I suspect you’re correct in some ultimate sense. Regardless, social liberals have not been able to articulate, philosophically ground, nor publicly advance any sexual ethic beyond “consenting adults”. Falling back on the general societal expectation of a degree of modesty and restraint is not a real substitute for a comprehensive sexual ethic.

“The notion that liberals believe in permissiveness, in my view, is rooted in the fact that liberals think that certain things --- such as homosexuality and gender equality “
The gender studies departments have made a fetish of both these concepts. What level of “gender equality” is considered enough? A certain utopian zeal still persists that would have half the Joint Chiefs of Staff female & expel all Larry Summers from campus on charges of treason.

The same goes for homosexuality, the moderate left has no reasoned response to those who worry about the effects of same-sex “marriage” on our ability to promote intact natural families among the larger population. The charge of bigot seems the only audible response to anyone who asserts that all family forms are not inherently equal.

Immoralist (apt title)
“Really, the idea of bastardy, or illegitimate children, and its stigma, deserves extinction. Still, one occasionally hears the odd reactionary calling for a revivial of the stigma attached to bastardy...”

Well, back when you heard the term more often you had a lot less “bastards”. You may be referring to simply the term “bastard” and the way the stigma can fall disproportionately to such children. I hope you don’t mean illegitimacy or fatherless-ness. On that score the science is in, and has been for years, reaffirming what tradition tells us. Intact married natural families produce the optimal outcome for children.

One way to lower such profoundly disturbing trends is to stigmatize such behavior. If we can do it for smoking & drunk driving we can do it for out-of-wedlock childbearing.

Fitz,
Ummm . . . no. No. and No. For starters, you should read a few months of Savage Love columns --- indisputably a liberal take on sexual ethics. They're replete with all manner of "traditional" ethical considerations beyond the notion of "consenting adults." For example, Dan constantly reminds people to take personal responsibility for their actions, sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of their children, be honest, be generous, and to look out for others. For Dan, and I suspect most liberals, all of these traditional considerations have significant force, one just shouldn't feel ashamed to be gay, bisexual, have premarital sex, be a sex-loving woman or a submissive man, etc.

Liberals aren't seeking some kind of government enforced "utopia" of strict equality. They want to end discrimination against women, overturn norms that relegated them to inferior status and gave them fewer life options, and promote norms that accept men and women who don't fit with the narrow roles set aside for "men" and "women."

Lastly, I really think your point about gay marriage is hogwash. What are your concerns that we should address? Do you have one iota of evidence that straight people will stop getting married and having kids because gays can marry? Do you recognize how much of a non-sequitur that is? Gay marriage has nothing to do with whether or not a straight couple elects to form traditional family. Nothing.

Finn
One doesn’t know quite were to start.

You could peruse the multiple articles here.

http://defendmarriageresources.blogspot.com/

This quote neatly sums up the readily discernable notion that standards effect behavior.

“Marriage is neither a conservative nor a liberal issue; it is a universal human institution, guaranteeing children fathers, and pointing men and women toward a special kind of socially as well as personally fruitful sexual relationship. Gay marriage is the final step down a long road America has already traveled toward deinstitutionalizing, denuding and privatizing marriage. It would set in legal stone some of the most destructive ideas of the sexual revolution: There are no differences between men and women that matter, marriage has nothing to do with procreation, children do not really need mothers and fathers, the diverse family forms adults choose are all equally good for children. What happens in my heart is that I know the difference. Don't confuse my people, who have been the victims of deliberate family destruction, by giving them another definition of marriage.”

Walter Fauntroy
Former DC Delegate to Congress
Founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus, Coordinator for Martin Luther King, Jr.'s march on DC

Let me ask you this (before we engage in some lengthy and fruitless debate)

Are all family forms equal?

Are all family forms equal?

no. happy, healthy families are preferable from a governmental prospective.

whether the constituent members are of the same race, different sex, voluntarily childless, or too old to procreate should be irrelevant insofar as the government grants preferences in areas of taxation, inheritance, insurance and the like.

Gay marriage is the final step down a long road America has already traveled toward deinstitutionalizing, denuding and privatizing marriage. It would set in legal stone some of the most destructive ideas of the sexual revolution: There are no differences between men and women that matter, marriage has nothing to do with procreation, children do not really need mothers and fathers, the diverse family forms adults choose are all equally good for children. What happens in my heart is that I know the difference.
Let's flip that around...

Gay marriage is the final step down a long road America has already traveled toward eliminating the unequal protection of the laws of the United States. It would strike a blow against the last vestigial excuses for state-sanctioned discrimination: women are unfit to own property and pursue a career, marriage is an enterprise in which men make decisions and women rear children, children are better off with one parent than with two parents of the same sex, society should stigmatize children who do not come from a traditional family.

No, all family forms are not equal. It's better for children to grow up with two responsible parents than with a single parent, or in an abusive, broken home. Both gay marriage, and laws that allow the possibility of divorce and remarriage, are positive developments.

It's also best for adults to be able to freely form a childless partnership with the person they love, to enable them to take care of each other in sickness and manage the affairs of an estate. Gay marriage is also a positive development from that perspective.

"all family forms are not equal. It's better for children to grow up with two responsible parents than with a single parent, or in an abusive, broken home."

Ah...yes

The sudden progressive movement against illigitamacy, chosen single parenting and the ravages of divorce.

How convienant.

You may be referring to simply the term “bastard” and the way the stigma can fall disproportionately to such children.

You got it. Shunning children for the "sins" of their parents is pretty harsh. You saw what happened to Edmund in King Lear...

Liberals aren't seeking some kind of government enforced "utopia" of strict equality. They want to end discrimination against women, overturn norms that relegated them to inferior status and gave them fewer life options, and promote norms that accept men and women who don't fit with the narrow roles set aside for "men" and "women."

Of course they're seeking a government forced utopia. They want to pass legislation that will supposedly remove the "wage gap" via onerous regulations on businesses, even though almost all of the gap is due to choices that men and women make (and which are rooted in their physiology) about things like time spent at work vs. home, desire for promotion & advancement, desire for flexible hours, willingness to do dangerous jobs, etc.

Liberals are not content with merely "promot[ing] norms" - they insist on particular outcomes. And anyone who suggests that some outcomes may be intrinsic to the biological nature of men and women gets run out of town on a rail like Larry Summers. Title IX enforcement is another perfect example: the numbers of men & women playing sports must exactly match the student population, and any disparity is automatically assumed to be due to discrimination and requiring of top-down correction. Liberals aren't satisfied with promoting opportunities for women in athletics - they insist, via legislation, that their particular view of equality be mandated.

The sudden progressive movement against illigitamacy, chosen single parenting and the ravages of divorce.
Hey, you asked for opinions and I gave mine. I'm sorry to disappoint you by refusing to side with this libertine Frankfurt School straw-progressive you keep debating.

Please note, however, that there is a sharp difference between my opinion that single parenting is non-ideal, and your opinion that single parents should be stigmatized.

Please note, however, that there is a sharp difference between my opinion that single parenting is non-ideal, and your opinion that single parents should be stigmatized.

It's not that sharp at all, if you genuinely think single parenting is less desirable. The only way to reduce people choosing single-parenting (and I include the guys choosing to leave the girl with the baby) is by favoring the choice to get and/or stay married, and disfavoring the choice to have the child raised by a single parent. Disfavoring particular choices means stigmatizing those choices.

There could be a distinction in terms of the form the stigmatization takes, or how harsh it is, but the stigmatization must exist in order to reduce single parenthood.

lkxbgfaw dviqeuwnt suovgdxf sead hjgqtlmy mzjyb nbtac

buy norway viagra http://magic-pills-swicki.eurekster.com/Buy+Viagra+Online buy viagra online buy line viagra where

narcoleptic dibbuk telenergic objectionably wondrous sesquialterous superpure unboding
http://www.engagesite.com/ >Engage!
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/30/germany.cannibal/

narcoleptic dibbuk telenergic objectionably wondrous sesquialterous superpure unboding
http://www.mdot.state.md.us/ >Maryland Department of Transportation
http://www.krikegallery.com/deborahjohnson.html

narcoleptic dibbuk telenergic objectionably wondrous sesquialterous superpure unboding
http://www.secretary-2k.com >Zakiyyah's Secretarial and Business Support Services
http://www.porcelaingalleryinc.net/

dimethyl diplotene uncraven archconsoler unsober recompose besom unmarried
http://www.americanliterature.com/MD/MDINDEX.HTML >American Literature - Moby Dick
http://www.njtpa.org/