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The Art of the Possible

21 Jun 2007 12:45 pm

Matt writes:

“Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical,” US President George W. Bush said yesterday “a nation founded on the principle that all human life is sacred.” That, of course, came during his address on the need to ban embryonic stem cell research.

Except that it didn't. Rather, it came during his address on the need to veto a bill permitting the use of federal funds to undertake embryonic stem cell research. The conclusion, however, seems unrelated to Bush's line of reasoning. If the cells are sacred human life, then surely it's not okay to kill them in a privately financed manner. The nonsensical nature of Bush's position on this issue is old news, but continues, in my view, to be under-remarked upon in mainstream coverage of the issue. Years ago, he hit upon a goofy split-the-difference compromise and ever since then he's been wandering the country insisting that he's taking a bold stand of principle.

I feel like I've heard this line of argument a lot, and in some sense of course it's true: If killing embryos is wrong in the way that Bush suggests it's wrong (and in the way I think it's wrong) then it should be prohibited, not merely left unfunded. But in another, more accurate sense, the critique is somewhat silly. Bush's approach isn't a "goofy split-the-difference compromise," it's a politically realistic split-the-difference compromise, which is what politics happens to be all about. Let's suppose, for instance, that a President believes - as many people do - that free health care is a universal human right, and that the government, not private organizations, should provide it. And let's suppose that the Congress passes a bill that gives free health insurance to children, but not to adults. And let's further suppose that said President signs the bill, and in the course of the speech remarks that "I applaud the Congress for recognizing that health care is a universal human right." Obviously in one sense this is BS, since the bill doesn't recognize any such thing - but it's still a smart thing for the President to say. Sure, he could be completely honest and say: "This bill is a small step in the direction of my real goal, which is the complete takeover of the health care industry by the U.S. government." And similarly, Bush could have vetoed the stem-cell bill while remarking that he hopes to one day ban all embryo-destructive research, and maybe even pass some Italy-style laws protecting embryos in general. That would have made him consistent; it would also have made him an idiot.

(In a related vein, for anyone interested in the embryo controversy - regardless of your point view - this Mother Jones article from last summer on America's "embryo glut" is required reading.)

Comments (110)

I take this post to mean that Matt's point is right, and Bush's point of view is, by your analogy, "BS." But he's only BSing because it's politically palatable.

Well, that clears that up!

Bush is making a pleasant-sounding moral claim that he obviously doesn't believe, and that the portion of the public opposed to banning IVF doesn't believe, to the detriment of people suffering from disease.

So there's more than rhetoric-parsing going on here. Matt's point is well worth making.

No, Elvis, Matt's point is that Bush is opposed to ESCR tout court, but knows that he doesn't have the political capital to try to outlaw it, so he's doing what he *can* do: prevent federal $$$ from being spent on killing embryonic human beings.

Whoops... I meant "Ross's point", not Matt's.

I'd argue that it isn't even necessarily a compromise- let's say one has the perfect pro-life President. He'd be likely to recognize that while he can prevent funding, he is highly unlikely to be able to rally support for a ban on the procedure. Moreover, he knows that if he attempts such a thing, he is likely to erode his political capital necessary for other pro-life issues and erode general sympathy for other pro-life issues (cf. Terri Schiavo). So Bush's position is not necessarily a compromise- it could equally be a realistic strategy to maximize pro-life advances.

You do have a point; Matt was off the mark-but not by much.

Politicians, both Democrats and Republicans, hold positions that are logically inconsistent but politically necessary.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't 1. point that out and 2. point out what they actually would like to do.

In this case, as in abortion politics generally, you and President Bush hold a profoundly unpopular position. You believe that abortion should be illegal after conception. You don't object just to "partial-birth" abortions; you object to all abortions at any point in a pregnancy.

This fact is highlighted by Bush's and your opposition to embryonic stem cell research and it also highlights how antithetical that position is to most Americans.

Think about it: Bush had to use his first veto on a stem cell bill when the ostensibly "pro-life" political party was in power.

For what its worth, I hope you keep up the opposition; your marginalization is very helpful to my politics.

President Bush said that "destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical". How then could he justify destroying Iraqi lives (collateral damages or not) in order to save American lives? If foreign lives are dispensable, then can he justify using foreigners' embryos to do stem cell research?

Bush's position and reasoning make even less sense when you consider that he clearly does not believe in the literal principle:
"Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical."

Iraq is the obvious example, but so is the right of people to kill an attacker in self-defense. So Bush's justification for his veto is a principle which he clearly does not believe (and almost no sane person would either upon reflection) and he has made no effort to even apply his ethical principle in totality to the issue at hand.

Ultimately, this is the Bush legacy. A litany of grand philosophical statements whose implications he does not fully understand and whose implementation he has never been able to achieve. He reminds me of that one student in every university seminar class (that I took, at least) who actively makes comments and observations that he thinks are interesting and relevant, but which are consistently shallow and non-sensical.

Bush is not willing to destroy a embryo, not even considered by medical standards to be a human being yet, but is willing to destroy other peoples family member (a real human being) for the war. The only reason he wants to veto is to save money in one area, and put it towards the war. He is not mister morality by any means, so open your eyes. Someday this war will be over, but diseases will always be here if we do not find a way to cure them.

Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical.

which is why when the Republican party was at the zenith of its power in 2000 - 2006, it passed a series of laws regulating IVF, including mandating that only one blastocyte be implanted at a time, only one blastocyte be created at any time, illegalizing the use of drugs designed to create more eggs in a shorter time span, preventing the long-term storage of blastocytes and creating major incentives for the implantation of existing stored blastocytes, including stripping away the ownership of that genetic material from the people who created it. Congress must have also passed legislation providing for effective sex education classes and for free health care, employment training and substantial direct financial subsidies to single mothers.

oh wait. It didn't? It didn't even try? wow. I know that politics is the art of the possible, but you'd think that the party would have made at least a token effort (unless, of course, you believe that that many people in positions of power in that time period don't care at all about fetal life but do care about keeping people like our gracious host in the party).

a[n] embryo, not even considered by medical standards to be a human being yet

Gisela, standard embryology textbooks state unequivocally that the end-product of human conception is a homo sapien, i.e. a human being.

One more of those inconvenient truths.

Congress must have also passed legislation providing for effective sex education classes and for free health care, employment training and substantial direct financial subsidies to single mothers.

Ok, the next time I read a comment on this blog where a liberal has assumed conservatives don't care about people because WE DON'T AGREE WITH LIBERAL POLICY POSITIONS MOST OF US HAVE REPEATEDLY STATED ARE NONSENSICAL AND NOT BASED ON REALITY, I am going to go find someone listening to NPR and throw them off a cliff. You will know you are responsible for this horrible action.

The empirical evidence suggests sex education of whatever kind has little effect, there is no such thing as "free" health care, and that direct subsidies to single mothers makes for a lot more single mothers and fatherless children and bad behavior. Assuming your policy options are the effective ones in a critique is arrogant and asinine. Could it be that conservatives aren't (all) stupid we just think your view of how to make the world a better place is utterly wrongheaded?

I agree, Yglesias misses the point in that it's perfectly coherent for a person who opposes research to ban funding but not ban research, if that's all the person can get through the political process.

Nonetheless, the bigger problem is the one Gisela points to. It is insane, inane, and delusional to posit that these things have the same rights as born human beings-- and yet Bush does not extend his principle of "no killing one person to save others" to people who everyone agrees actually exist.

Somewhere along the line, the religious right in this country got caught up in a theoretical claim that "life begins at conception", because some of them didn't want to accept early term abortions that might allow women to have greater control over their sexuality. (Historically and in science and philosophy, life has RARELY been thought to begin at conception, and although people now point to unique DNA (though is a zygote that is going to split into twins one life or two, and which life is it?), that is arbitrarily picking just one of the many attributes that make us living beings with rights.) I think it was also picked because it makes for a nice slogan.

I don't want to die because of somebody else's debating society claim about when a living being attains rights, any more than I want to die so that someone else can control a woman's sex life. And that is what is truly offensive about Bush's position.

Bush thankfully tries to base his principles on the bible....im glad he at least tries...and as the bible says that once fertilization occurs its a human life then i agree with the president that killing life in hope of saving life is unethical.but mearly underfunding it is not enough it has to be banned for.

(people-"God please send us people that can end world poverty and cure AIDS"God-"I did but you aborted them and killed them in laboratories"

Good post. Hypocrisy arguments in politics are stupid, for this very reason. You could cite Weber's "Politics as Vocation" in support.

Chris and Gisela, science does not have the answer for us, one way or the other, as to the personhood of an embryo.

Science can describe characteristics, but can't make the moral determination as to when life begins.

Dilan, why do you think that pro-lifers stance on when life begins is just a "debating society claim"? I hope it's not just because you disagree with it... as you know, all sorts of people have been denied their rights at various points in human history, and their defenders had to stand up on their behalf, in the face of dismissive assertions much like your own ("don't we have more important things to address than whether or not women have the right to vote?"). And it's thank to *science* (regarding which the president's opponents claim to be "pro") that we now know that an individual human being begins at conception (or its IVF/twinning analogues).

Committed pro-lifers accept the science on this, really, actually believe that every human being has dignity & rights. This isn't some academic debating point... it's as real an issue for us as is the recognition of rights of every other human being, born or unborn.

I assume that you see your position as more than a debating point... I ask that you do the same for us.

science does not have the answer for us, one way or the other, as to the personhood of an embryo.

Agreed.

Science can describe characteristics, but can't make the moral determination as to when life begins.

Disagree.

Describing something's biological status is (obviously) a matter for biology, and hence your second assertion is incorrect... I imagine that you meant to say something like what you said in your first assertion, which I do agree with.

However, I think that if there is a disagreement as to whether or not a particular homo sapien (or class thereof) is a person, the burden of proof is on those who would deny as much. History is replete with examples of some homo sapiens denying that other homo sapiens have rights (i.e. are persons), so I think that in our day & age, the benefit of the doubt should be given.

I also believe, incidentally, that the position that all homo sapiens are persons is more philosophically defensible and coherent, but that's for another comment. :-)

To me stem cell research abortions and same sex marrige are the most important topics right now for this country...obviously we are at war but most importantly the ban on all 3 of these topics are desperatly needed.I dont beleive in Bush or in science what I do beleive in 100 percent is in the Bible and that everything it says is important and should be considered in these matters. Not only is stem cell reaserch moraly iresponsible it is also anti biblical...and remember that in GOD we trust not what doctors consider to be a human life or not.Or if banning same sex marriges is restrictioning freedom or not.A family consists of a male father a female mother and children.
anything that diviates from that comes out of the perversity found in a growing amount of people.And life is found in the fertilization of the egg.A nation founded on biblical principles should remain that way...unfortunatly thats changing in this country.

Human embryonic stem cell research is illegal in Germany.
Not underfinanced by the federal government, or not financed by the government; nor permitted by private companies, universities or research labs.

Rather it is completely banned field of research.

Why Germany? Hmmmmm???

I have a hard time understanding how Mr. Bush can say “Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical,” US President George W. Bush said yesterday “a nation founded on the principle that all human life is sacred", then turn around and kill thousands of Iraqis? I wonder if the stem cells came form Iraq, North Korea, Iran or possibly Mexico then maybe the president would see things differently and devalue the "life" of the stem cells.

To me stem cell research abortions and same sex marrige are the most important topics right now for this country

really ? that's very sad.

Destroying human life to save human life? Unethical? What is the justification for the Iraq war? Oh, yes, a few cells in an American womb are worth more than human life elsewhere in the world.

I have a friend who has fertilized eggs in cold storage. The first implant resulted in a baby. They have a choice: pay thousands of dollars to keep the additional four embryos in storage, or let them be disposed of. They do not plan to have another child, as it would be too hard on the mother to be safe. Why should those embryos, which many claim are life, since they are fertilized, be destroyed? Why not donate them to stem cell research? It seems that no one really cares about these embryos that will be destroyed, it is just a political platform on stem cell research. It seems that it is okay to dump these four embryos in a furnace, but it is wrong to use them for research...

I have another friend who has Parkinson's and is confined to a wheelchair. He cannot walk, talk, or eat. He wears a diaper and is fed through a stomach tube. His tounge is dried out and blistered since he cannot work up saliva and anything he would try to swallow ends up in his lungs. He cannot speak, except occasionally when he is asleep he mumbles, since this is involuntary muscle movement. He is a surgeon who has saved many lives; people who now have a better life than he does.

After spending a number of evenings with them, I personally feel that if those four frozen embryos have the slightest chance of helping anyone else not end up in that condition, then they should go to research instead of to the furnace!

But then, what do I know? I am just an ordinary guy who really doesn't understand political chicanery. In my world helping people is important, but I guess in the political world, standing on a platform plank is more important than human suffering and embryo destruction...

Ingo Castilho

"remember that in GOD we trust not what doctors consider to be a human life or not."

I'm sorry your Biblical literalism overrides your ability to reason.

The science of embryology is well established as to the beginning of human life.

Focusing away from the pro-life pro-choice debate going on and back the substance of the post, I am with Matt on this one. Bush has staked his entire presidency on doing the right thing (according to him) even if it is not popular or politically savvy. Look at the whole Iraq mess and all the bloodshed/mayhem it has caused. Still even with a massive majority against him, he keeps plodding along unwilling to even contemplate a compromise. His entire sales pitch is ‘all or nothing’, and he is done it once so often that it cannot be an act. The man is obviously stubborn and delusional about things that matter to him (Iraq, immigration, ..)

Yet Ross writes that Bush is accepting a politically realistic compromise because the alternative seems silly. And doing so would make him seem an idiot. Well, well, isn’t that surprising. Apparently Bush is this chameleon who can change from the politically savvy compromise-striking realist to the hard-ass warrior who does not care for compromise or opinion polls. Well which is it (cuz they can’t be both)?

The truth may be is that Bush just doesn’t care enough about the stem-cell stuff. It is something, just like abortion, that does not push his buttons. So he (or Rove) can manipulate it for some much needed ‘political capital’.

wow, someone needs the irony meter restored.

The US Constitution protects persons. As to avoid irrelevant debate as to whether cells are alive, I prefer to shift the focus of debate to personhood, and ask the question at what point during fetal gestation does the fetus become a "person" receiving the protection of the Constitution.

Choices include:

A. Fertilization. One consequence of this position is that most IVF procedures must be banned, as well as stem cell research (in addition, of course, all abortions).

B. Birth. One consequence of this position is that a normal, healthy, 9-month old fetus may be aborted without criminal sanction.

C. Somewhere in between. One consequence of this position is that the sharp distinctions that need to be made in this kind of line-drawing are usually intellectually unsatisfying.

other weird aspects of the strong anti-abortion movement is that no one seems to talk much about prosecuting women who have abortions overseas for murder, or whether states (assuming the matter is returned to the states) would have the right to physically restrain their residents from traveling to states in which more lax abortion laws exist.

question: given that most women in the US deliberately choose the number of children they will have over their lifespans (which means that an unaborted pregnancy carried to term will result in the non-existence of some other person), and given what is known about the natural miscarriage rate, what is the non-Biblical moral argument against abortion of non-viable fetuses?

Francis

"I prefer to shift the focus of debate to personhood, and ask the question at what point during fetal gestation does the fetus become a "person" receiving the protection of the Constitution."

Well, this seems to be the prevailing tactic when presented with the scientific consensus on the origins of human life.

Nevertheless America’s most controversial legal decision Roe v Wade speaks not in terms of "personhood" but in terms of human life. It is also true that before that decision, the States had always regulated abortion under their police powers. So historically speaking this is not legally unusual approach.

Even later precedent like the Casey decision spawned famous “sweet mystery of life” passages that spoke not in terms of “personhood” but rather in term of “the beginning of human life”.

scientific consensus on the origins of human life

despite what the "scientists" at Discovery Institute say, we are primates, sharing a common ancestor with such species as chimpanzees.

this still doesn't answer the question when the protection of LAW attaches to a fetus.


"despite what the "scientists" at Discovery Institute say, we are primates, sharing a common ancestor with such species as chimpanzees."


I'm sorry Francis but it is the scientific consensus of secular science on when human life begins. This is taught in all medical schools. This bears no relationship to battles about evolution.

I suspect you knew that already.

http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html

“this still doesn't answer the question when the protection of LAW attaches to a fetus.”

The protection of the law attaches to a fetus in a number of ways in different circumstances, however the “health” exception opened up in Doe v Bolton is big enough to drive a truck through.

this still doesn't answer the question when the protection of LAW attaches to a fetus

Actually, the question is when the protection of the law ought to attach to a fetus.

I particularly love your summary of when personhood might apply: "choices include" fertilization, birth and "somewhere in beween". I gather the final option is "sometime after birth". You note "somewhere in between" is "intellectually unsatisfying". I agree. I'd add that defining moral personhood as beginning at birth is even less intellecually defensible.

What is left? Well, infaticide, but otherwise we must conclude that moral personhood correlates to the genesis of an individual human life. Intellectually consistent and coherent, just rather inconvenient for sexual liberation and liberal politics.

gabriel,

By "genesis of an individual human life" I assume you mean fertilization of a human egg by a human sperm. But fertilization is a process, which takes around 24 hours. At which precise point during this process do you think an "individual human life" comes into existence? Whatever your answer, why that particular point, rather than a different one?

Mixner,

Well, I think that's fairly straigtforward. An individual life is that which can function as an integrated whole. So I would think that the fusion of the pronuclei would be the point at which integrated function begins, and hence the beginning of an individual human life.

gabriel,

I don't know what "the fusion of the pronuclei" is supposed to mean. Perhaps you're referring to the injection of chromosomes from the sperm into the nucleus of the egg. But again, that's a process, not an instantaneous event. At which precise point during this process do you believe "an individual human life" begins to exist, and why that point rather than some other point?

This isn't necessarily a purely academic question, either. A new form of chemical birth control that acts by interfering with the fertilization process is quite plausible. Depending on precisely when this chemical disrupts the fertilization process, you would consider it either a mere contraceptive, or a weapon of homicide.

Of course, the reason I'm asking the question is to illustrate what I consider to be the absurdity of your position. The idea that one microsecond there is merely worthless tissue, and a microsecond later there is a full-blown human person, with a right to life comparable to that of a newborn baby, seems to me so counterintuitive and silly that I can't imagine most people could ever be persuaded to accept it.

On the other hand, millions of Americans apparently believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old, so perhaps I'm overestimating the common sense of the general public.

Chris:

Here's why it's a debating society point. A blastocyst feels no pain, has no conciousness of itself, has no will to live, has no ability to actualize its potential, cannot survive without the intervention of another person, has not contributed to the social contract, etc. In other words, there's all sorts of attributes of rights-bearing individuals it lacks.

What it has is the fully-formed DNA of a human person.

The point is, because of all the issues raised in the first paragraph, which many people think have great bearing on whether something qualifies as a being with rights, to declare that "life begins at conception"-- even if it is accurate-- is only accurate in the most theoretical sense. You are privileging a contested theory that protects an entity with only the most attenuated claim to rights over the lives of people whom everyone agrees are alive, have a will to live, and have a right to life.

You are saying that the life of someone whose right to life requires a complicated theoretical and philosophical proof is more important than the lives of others whose right to life is self-evident.

it's worth noting that a scraping of cells from inside your cheek will also contain fully-formed DNA of a human person. Your clone? quite possibly not.

ah but it will take an extraordinary effort and science we do not yet possess to gestate these cells into a human person.

true. of course, the same could have been said about frozen embryos just a few years ago.

do all the living cells you shed every day have an independent right to life? assuming that a woman is more than an incubator, what's the difference between those cells and a newly fertilized embryo?

Mixner, the completion of the process of fertilization is generally regarded as the point at which the new organism first exists.

Dilan, but aren't your question-begging in making your assertions? If we're going to discuss whether or not the embryo has the same dignity & rights that you and I do, you can't say it's a merely theoretical question because it doesn't have the same rights & dignity. But let's take your first 'graph:

A blastocyst feels no pain,

Agreed. Why is this relevant? Do you need to be able to feel pain now to be a human person?

has no conciousness of itself,

Agreed. But nor does a neonate. Again, do you need to be conscious now to be a human person?

has no will to live,

What does this mean? I think *every* living entity has *some* will to live. Can you elaborate?

has no ability to actualize its potential,

This is definitely not the case. Every biological embryo is a self-directed, self-actualizing member of its species.

cannot survive without the intervention of another person,

So? You and I can't survive in outer space or underwater without some form of intervention. How is this relevant?

has not contributed to the social contract,

I know that you aren't really serious about this one. How many adult Americans have done so?

n other words, there's all sorts of attributes of rights-bearing individuals it lacks.

Agreed. But most of these attributes are also missing in other homo sapiens whose personhood we *do* acknowledge, meaning that they aren't *essential* to what it means to be a human person.

is only accurate in the most theoretical sense.

Can you elaborate on this? What exactly do you mean? I began to exist at conception, as did you. How is this merely theoretical?

You are saying that the life of someone whose right to life requires a complicated theoretical and philosophical proof is more important than the lives of others whose right to life is self-evident.

As you know, Dilan, various people have denied the humanity or personhood of all sorts of other human beings throughout history, and it generally involved complicated theoretical & philosophical argumentation to make clear what *should* have been self-evident: that these human beings were in fact human beings. The same is true, unfortunately, today: it *should* be self-evident that the embryonic human has the same dignity as an adult human, but it's not, sadly. Hence the need (once again) to develop arguments demonstrating the personhood of one subset of human beings.

Incidentally, not all of the arguments are very complicated: every human being is a human person; the human being begins to exist at the moment of conception; therefore the embryo is a human person.

francis,

what's the difference between those cells and a newly fertilized embryo?

The embryo is a self-directed, self-actualizing entity who, given the proper environment, will grow into an adult human being. It doesn't matter what environment you put a skin cell in: it will never grow into an adult human being.

Chris Burgwald - You wrote in response to
"cannot survive without the intervention of another person,"

"So? You and I can't survive in outer space or underwater without some form of intervention. How is this relevant?"

I think the better answer (more common and assessable analogy) would be the newborn infant itself. Survival without the protection of the Mother &/or Father or willing adult is impossible. This applies, arguably, up until puberty. (one would think)

Other examples include the aged, the infirm, the sick, the mentally retarded, the weak and the poor.

In fact (I would say) the test of personhood that relies on "cannot survive without the intervention of another person," applies to every person on earth. We are social animals that require one another in order to thrive.

How often has Matt Y. criticized Democrats for not forthrightly stating that they want to expand the welfare state, and that they want to massively raise taxes in order to do so? I don't follow his blog - has he taken the Dems to task for not following through on their promises for reforming Congress? This business of criticizing Republican politicians as being insincere because they don't attempt to implement comprehensive policies all at once is so tiresome. No politicians do that - and any that try (see, HillaryCare) usually fail miserably.

Someone earlier raised the notion that Bush thinks embryos have "the same" rights as an adult. But that's patently false - he simply thinks it has an inherent right not to be intentionally killed, just as a newborn does. That doesn't mean it has the right to vote, or to own property, or to drive a car.

The moral equivalence between removing Saddam Hussein's regime and intentional destruction of embryos & fetuses is also tiresome. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." In order for the analogy to make sense, one would have to believe that Bush intended to kill innocent (weaker) Iraqi citizens in order to benefit the stronger Iraqis (the Baathists). The reality is that in both cases, Bush thought the rights of the weaker were being trampled on by the powerful, and he sided with the more vulnerable population.

Mixner,

The fusion of the pronuclei is about as discrete an event as one can get, and it is certainly discrete enough to provide an adequate guideline to scientific regulation. I agree with you that there is a precise point at which what had hitherto been a sperm and egg become a fertilized ovum, which is an individual human life.

Of course, the reason I'm asking the question is to illustrate what I consider to be the absurdity of your position. The idea that one microsecond there is merely worthless tissue, and a microsecond later there is a full-blown human person, with a right to life comparable to that of a newborn baby, seems to me so counterintuitive and silly that I can't imagine most people could ever be persuaded to accept it.

It's not absurd at all. At one point there is no individual human life, and at the next there is. You presumably do not dispute that this is the case. I think that the coming into existence of an individual human life is logically a pretty strong basis for recognizing the existence of brand-new human rights pertaining to that life.

The gradualist approach, on the other hand, necessarily implies that there exist such entities that, while biologically human, are only partial persons, only persons to a degree.

Moreover, the particular qualities that are uniquely human, aside from our biological identity, and which are suggested as means of evaluating personhood, are things like consciousness, moral capacity, rationality, and language use. This is a logically consistent position- but it has the drawback of justifying infanticide, as infants and even young children have little of these capacities.

gabriel,

You still haven't explained in clear scientific language precisely which point in the fertilization process you mean by "fusion of the pronuclei." Ultimately, your bright-line, instantaneous transformation comes down to a discrete chemical event. The transfer of electrons from one atom to another. Shuffle a few electrons and, voila, you've gone from lifeless tissue to a full-blown human person.

Perhaps you've truly managed to convince yourself that this is not absurd. Perhaps it really is consistent with your moral intuitions about what it means to be a person and a human life. But I'm inclined to doubt it. In any case, it seems to me highly unlikely that this "scientific" argument for your moral claim will persuade anyone else.

Mixner,

Is it not reasonable to believe that an individual of the species has its origin at a discrete point? If not, I fail to see how believing a human person comes into existence at an exact point is any less reasonable.

Perhaps you've truly managed to convince yourself that this is not absurd.
There is no need to condescend.

Perhaps it really is consistent with your moral intuitions about what it means to be a person and a human life.
Moral intuitions and reason, yes. My moral intuition tells me that our value and personhood are not dependent on our capabilities or attributes, but on our common identity as human beings. Reason and science identifies the point of origin as conception.

But I'm inclined to doubt it.
Hardly a charitable disposition.

In any case, it seems to me highly unlikely that this "scientific" argument for your moral claim will persuade anyone else.
How is this a scientific argument? Human personhood and value, human rights, ethics itself are not amenable to scientific proof. It is however, an argument based on reason and our common moral suppositions.

Now, to be fair, why don't you explain how your gradualist model is supposed to work?

Chris:

What you miss about my laundry list of factors to be considered in determining personhood is that they are just that, factors. There is no particular aspect of humanity that one can point to and say "THERE, THAT'S THE THING THAT GIVS US THE RIGHT TO LIFE". Not even conception-- as I said, is a zygote that is going to split into two zygotes one life or two? And which one is it? And is a zygote that will not split still two lives because it COULD split?

So I tend to agree that every single potential criterion for drawing a bright line of personhood comes with logical problems-- but so does conception!

So what we are left with is a situation where causing the death of a blastocyst creates an ethical muddle, where it may or may not be a person with rights. But causing the death of me creates no such ethical muddle, because I possess all the relevant factors that go into a determination of personhood. So privileging the life of that blastocyst over my life is a serious ethical error.

I have noticed, however, that you are making implicit comparisons of your position to that of abolitionists. I can only say, don't flatter yourself. You are wrapping a false claim of morality around a very immoral position that doesn't care about my life if a clump of cells that you call a person and nobody else does needs to be destroyed to save it.

In contrast, nobody justified slavery by saying that it was needed to save lives. Rather, they simply said that certain persons-- who were concededly persons, as even the noxious 3/5ths clause of the constitution refers to them as "other persons"-- had no rights because despite having all of the aspects of personhood. Blacks were allegedly inferior persons, and that justified enslaving them.

Nobody who favors attempting to save my life-- and yours-- through embryonic stem cell research believes that blastocysts are inferior persons. We don't believe that they are "persons" at all, because they do not possess any of the relevant aspects of personhood except for their DNA.

It is most offensive that you would compare people who want to save lives with a bunch of bigots.

Dilan, obviously I wasn't calling you bigoted... we are discussing one another's *positions* on a matter, not one another's person. I was not comparing *you* to bigots. The fact remains, though, that your *position* shares some commonalities with other positions throughout history that you (rightly) abhor, chiefly the assertion that some homo sapiens are unequal in dignity to other homo sapiens.

So, what is the essence of being a human person? What is it that marks human personhood, without which there is no such entity? Here's my definition: a human person is any organism which belongs to the species homo sapiens. Note that by this definition, neither gametes nor any other human cell (save the blastocyst) qualifies (against those who create a strawman of our position).

We can extend this into a discussion of the meaning of personhood, as it appears that that's where things are naturally tending, but I wanted to get my definition out there and see what yours is.

As to twinning, my position is the obvious biological one: from conception to twinning, there is one homo sapiens, i.e. one human person. In twinning (analogous to asexual reproduction), a second homo sapiens comes to be, which did not exist prior to twinning. One zygote is one zygote; the possibility of second zygote coming from it doesn't change the fact that it is a self-actualizing, self-directed member of our species. Consider the asexual reproduction analogy: some worms reproduce by "splitting". Prior to said splitting, however, no one denies that the worm was a worm. So, too, with human twinning: the first zygote was always a human being; that a second human being came to exist from it doesn't change that fact.

gabriel,

I do find it hard to believe that your moral intuition tells you that the difference between worthless tissue and a full-blown human person lies in the shuffling of a few electrons.

A fertilized human egg is clearly an individual human something. But then so is an unfertilized egg. And a human sperm cell. All of them are "individuals." All of them are "human" rather than members of some other species. But that doesn't mean we should consider any of them to be human persons.

And I doubt you really believe that a fertilized egg is a human person. I doubt you mourn the loss of a zygote as you would the loss of a child. I doubt you think women who have abortions, or scientists who destroy embryos in stem-cell research, or couples who destroy embryos during fertility treatments, should be prosecuted for the crime of murder.

Mixner,

I doubt you really believe that a fertilized egg is a human person.
I suppose it is very reassuring to believe that no one could really, truly disagree with you, Beacon of Enlightenment and Reason. However, it is not the case.

I doubt you mourn the loss of a zygote as you would the loss of a child.
I mourn the loss of a friend more than that of someone I do not know. But I mourn both in different degrees. I have a close friend who recently miscarried; and yes, I mourned, as did she.

A fertilized human egg is clearly an individual human something. But then so is an unfertilized egg. And a human sperm cell. All of them are "individuals."
No, they are not. It is rather obvious. Both ova and sperm perform a function of the human individual, namely a part of the reproductive function, just as kidney cells or muscle cells perform other functions. A fertilized ovum is a self-determining, unique human individual which functions as an intergrated whole. I suspect your objection is sophistical and tendentious rather than genuine.

Your materialistic and reductionistic approach to "tissue" makes me curious as to why you think anyone should have rights. After all, we are but agglomerations of tissue; a concatenation of protons, neutrons and electrons. Perhaps you could indicate your theory of on how some members of our race come to have any rights at all?

gabriel,

I mourn the loss of a friend more than that of someone I do not know.

Yes, I'm sure you do, but that's not the issue. Do you mourn the loss of zygotes and embryos as much as the loss of children? Anything like as much? By your definition, spontaneous abortion is a form of infant mortality. In fact, it is estimated that half or more of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. So, on your account, the infant mortality rate in America is perhaps 50% or more, not the tiny fraction of that figure quoted in official statistics. Where is the outcry from people like you? Where are your demands for the government and drug companies to act to reduce this appalling loss of life?

No, they are not. It is rather obvious. Both ova and sperm perform a function of the human individual, namely a part of the reproductive function, just as kidney cells or muscle cells perform other functions.

A zygote is also a part of the reproductive function, like sperm cells and eggs. And your claim that eggs and sperms are not "individuals" and/or not "human" is just empirically false. They are individual organisms, and their species is human.

A fertilized ovum is a self-determining, unique human individual which functions as an intergrated whole.

I don't know what "self-determining" and "functions as an integrated whole" are supposed to mean, exactly. A fertilized egg cannot survive or develop unless it is embedded in a uterus, so is neither "self-determining" nor "functions as an integrated whole." Its "determination" and "functioning" are dependent on information and substances external to itself.

But I'm not sure why you're even mentioning these attributes at all, because you already said that you think "our value and personhood are not dependent on our capabilities or attributes." So whatever significance you attach to "self-determination" or "functioning as a whole" you've already said you don't think personhood depends on them.

Mixner,

I am curious if you have a coherent alternative theory of why some human organisms become people. Perhaps not?

A zygote is also a part of the reproductive function
A zygote is an entirely new human being. It is the result of the reproductive process, rather than performing a function therein.

A fertilized egg cannot survive or develop unless it is embedded in a uterus, so is neither "self-determining" nor "functions as an integrated whole."
The internal genetic and epigenetic information in a fertilized ovum direct its development into an adult. That it is dependent on its mother does not reduce its individual nature any more than the dependence of a baby extinguishes its individuality.

But I'm not sure why you're even mentioning these attributes at all, because you already said that you think "our value and personhood are not dependent on our capabilities or attributes." So whatever significance you attach to "self-determination" or "functioning as a whole" you've already said you don't think personhood depends on them.
Actually, I'm defining a human individual, not the kind of human individual to which rights apply.

Gabriel,

Now I'm really confused about what you believe, and why.

If you believe that human zygotes, but not human sperm and unfertilized ova, are "the kind of human individual to which rights apply," on what difference between zygotes and sperm/ova does this distinction rest?

Ditto for "personhood," if you're using that word to mean something different from "the kind of human individual to which rights apply."

Remember, it can't be any kind of "capability or attribute," such as the capability for "self-determination" or the capability to "function as an integrated whole," because you already said that you don't think personhood depends on any "capability or attribute." So what is it?

Mixner attempts to argue that zygotic human beings are not human persons because of the high rate of miscarriages.

Following that logic, none of us our human persons, because there is a 100% mortality rate for homo sapiens.

Mixner,

A zygote is an individual of the human species. Neither sperm, nor ova, nor individual human cells are. They are part of a some different individual human being. I've mentioned plenty of valid distinctions, but let's try it another way: sperm are one part of an adult human being, as are ova, as are skin cells, or muscle cells or what have you. A zygote, on the other hand, is genetically distinct from both its mother and father. It is the whole of the human individual at that point in its existence, just as the fetus is the whole of the human individual during gestation, and the child is the whole of a human individual after birth.

Regarding personhood, you are correct in my meaning. A person may reasonably defined as a human individual to whom rights inhere. This is the central question, and the one I am eager to hear your view on.

Mixner,
I'm away for the weekend, by the way.

Mixner said,

Of course, the reason I'm asking the question is to illustrate what I consider to be the absurdity of your position. The idea that one microsecond there is merely worthless tissue, and a microsecond later there is a full-blown human person, with a right to life comparable to that of a newborn baby, seems to me so counterintuitive and silly that I can't imagine most people could ever be persuaded to accept it.

Aren't you a supporter of abortion rights? Doesn't doing so require you to draw just such a line?

Many ideas that were once seen as counterintuitive are not so. Sometimes our intuitions are wrong, and sometimes they change as we consider new evidence or perspectives.

gabriel,

I've mentioned plenty of valid distinctions

You mentioned "self-determination," "uniqueness" and "functioning as an integrated whole." I don't think any of those things actually are differences between zygotes and sperm/ova. But I don't need to argue that point anyway, because they're all examples of "capabilities or attributes" and you already said that you think "our value and personhood are not dependent on our capabilities or attributes." So none of those distinctions can support your claim that zygotes are persons but sperm and unfertilized ova are not, even if we grant that they are true distinctions.

but let's try it another way: sperm are one part of an adult human being, as are ova, as are skin cells, or muscle cells or what have you. A zygote, on the other hand, is genetically distinct from both its mother and father.

You're doing it again. "Genetic distinctness" is an attribute, and you just said that personhood does not depend on attributes. So what does it depend on? What, in your opinion, is the defining difference between persons and non-persons? It can't be genetic uniqueness, or the ability to grow, or any other kind of "capability or attribute," because you have already denied that personhood depends on those things. So what is it?

It is the whole of the human individual at that point in its existence,

And a sperm cell and the unfertilized egg are also examples of "the whole of the human individual at that point in their existence." They are both individual organisms, and their species is human.

Dilan said,

So what we are left with is a situation where causing the death of a blastocyst creates an ethical muddle, where it may or may not be a person with rights. But causing the death of me creates no such ethical muddle, because I possess all the relevant factors that go into a determination of personhood. So privileging the life of that blastocyst over my life is a serious ethical error.

But there is no guarantee that killing the blastocyst will save anyone's life - that is speculation at present. So you are asking that we risk committing a moral evil based on the possibility that we might be able to prolong someone's life. This is so even though there are alternative routes to therapies that do not risk committing the moral evil of killing an innocent human being.

You are also ignoring the issue of intent: your intent is to kill the blastocyst, but nobody has the intent that you die. Not developing a therapy that might cure your disease is not "causing" you to die.

Chris Burgwald,

Mixner attempts to argue that zygotic human beings are not human persons because of the high rate of miscarriages.

I never said or implied any such thing.

Mike S,

Aren't you a supporter of abortion rights? Doesn't doing so require you to draw just such a line?

Yes, I am a supporter of abortion rights, and no I don't think that requires me to draw such a line.

Many ideas that were once seen as counterintuitive are not so. Sometimes our intuitions are wrong, and sometimes they change as we consider new evidence or perspectives.

Well, it seems to me that new evidence and perspectives are making the "zygote=person" or "embryo=person" position even more counterintuitive and even harder to sell. The position implies that embryo-destroying stem cell research is murder, and that IVF procedures that thousands of otherwise-infertile couples use to have children, procedures that typically involve the intentional creation and destruction of multiple embryos, is multiple murder. But even most abortion opponents don't seem to see it that way.

Chris:

Your answer on the twins begs the question. Let's suppose there are two identical twins, Terri and Sherri. Now, before that zygote split, was that "person"-- the original zygote-- Terri or Sherri or some other "person" whose life was extinguished by the splitting? And if you don't know, how can you be sure that it was a "person" at all?

Mike S.:

It is true that embryonic stem cell research MAY NOT produce any cures. But the position of pro-lifers, as best I can tell, is that it is wrong even if it does produce cures. Indeed, it is wrong even if it produces a cure that allows the entire population to live to 150 years. Am I wrong?

So at least on the theoretical level, the pro-lifer certainly does privilege the blastocyst's life over mine.


"And I doubt you really believe that a fertilized egg is a human person. I doubt you mourn the loss of a zygote as you would the loss of a child. I doubt you think women who have abortions, or scientists who destroy embryos in stem-cell research, or couples who destroy embryos during fertility treatments, should be prosecuted for the crime of murder."

There is the crime of murder 1st & 2nd degree. There is intentional & unintentional manslaughter, there is reckless endangerment, neglect, wanton neglect – mitigating and aggravating circumstances. Indeed, as moral beings we make distinctions, between the abortionist, the profit motive, the pregnant women and degrees of culpability, mental state, and intent.

We mourn the loss of pregnancies, miscarriages, discovery of infertility, crib deaths and childlessness in general. Once again, as moral beings we make distinctions. It would be unfair to artificially conflate the sophistication of our collective moral heritage.

DilanEsp
“It is true that embryonic stem cell research MAY NOT produce any cures. But the position of pro-lifers, as best I can tell, is that it is wrong even if it does produce cures. Indeed, it is wrong even if it produces a cure that allows the entire population to live to 150 years. Am I wrong?”

No

“So at least on the theoretical level, the pro-lifer certainly does privilege the blastocyst's life over mine.”

This time you are wrong. Pro-lifers privilege all life equally. By protecting the innocent human life from exploitation in medical research they are insuring your human dignity from the same collapse. Turning nascent human life into a commodity; into a means to an end rather than a end in itself, is MORE dehumanizing then simple execution for wanton conveyance.

Now we have made human life into a commodity. Something that is considered justifiable and necessary to kill for the “greater good”. One life that has the power and influence (grown adults) exploit the vulnerable and weak as a class that must necessarily be killed for its benefit.

Fitz,

There is the crime of murder 1st & 2nd degree. There is intentional & unintentional manslaughter, there is reckless endangerment, neglect, wanton neglect – mitigating and aggravating circumstances. Indeed, as moral beings we make distinctions, between the abortionist, the profit motive, the pregnant women and degrees of culpability, mental state, and intent.

If embryos were legal persons, and the killing of embryos was legal homicide, then the vast majority of killings of embryos through abortion, stem cell research and IVF procedures would clearly qualify as the crime of murder (rather than manslaughter, "reckless endangerment," "wanton neglect," or some other lesser crime). In fact, most of them would clearly qualify as murder in the first degree, since they would be both intentional and premeditated. Do you really seek to include the killing of embryos in state and federal murder laws?

As for "culpability and mental state," there is no presumption of diminished responsibility or insanity in our criminal justice system. If a defendant charged with murder or manslaughter wishes to argue that he is not guilty, or that is he is guilty only of some lesser crime, on the grounds of insanity or diminished responsibility, he would need to present extensive psychiatric evidence at his trial to establish that claim. The presumption is that a defendant is of sound mind and is responsible for his actions. Any exceptions to that must be established on a case-by-case basis. I don't think you can seriously claim that most women who have abortions, most stem cell researchers, or most couples who use IVF, are insane or mentally impaired in some other way that would relieve them of responsibility for their actions.

This is the insane logic of your "embryos=persons" position--a world in which women who have abortions, scientists who do stem cell research, and couples who use IVF are murderers and would be punished as such. Is that the kind of world you seek?

This is the insane logic of your "embryos=persons" position--a world in which women who have abortions, scientists who do stem cell research, and couples who use IVF are murderers and would be punished as such.

Mixner, you might recall that abortion was illegal prior to 1973, yet women who sought abortions were not thrown in the slammer, despite the fact that abortion was illegal.

"This is the insane logic of your "embryos=persons" position--a world in which women who have abortions, scientists who do stem cell research, and couples who use IVF are murderers and would be punished as such. Is that the kind of world you seek?

No Mixer that is YOUR insane logic. As Chris points out we a have a discernable history of regulating abortion under the police powers on the State level.

Your legal logic is neither 1.) precedent or history, 2) the democratic will of the majority (if allowed to regulation of abortion)

Typically criminal sanctions extended not to the women procuring the abortion but to the doctor performing it. No post hoc law would apply to those involved in human embryo destruction at any level.

I bring up the plethora of approaches to killing not to enter into a convenient legal extrapolation; rather to highlight the moral nuance all ready present in our system.

Dilan, I'm not begging the question: you asked how my theory accounted for twinning, and I explained it to you. Let me do so again:

My position is that dignity & rights inhere in each and every human being. Therefore, as soon as a human being comes into existence, that entity has the same dignity & rights you & I have. With every successful conception, then, you have such an entity, a homo sapien, a human being. That a second homo sapien may arise later doesn't change the fact that there was initially a homo sapien present. Nor do I see any reason to suppose that one homo sapien dies in twinning and that two take its place; the tapeworm example is again relevant: any biologist would tell you that prior to its splitting, there is one tapeworm present, and that that tape worm continues to exist after it splits and a second tapeworm comes to be. The same is true with monozygotic twinning: there is one homo sapien, and a second is formed from the first.

Identifying the rights-bearing entity with a human being is not only the most common-sensical, it is also the least problematic; there simply is no other non-arbitrary point at which a homo sapiens could be said to become rights-bearing that wouldn't entail serious repercussions for our Western understanding of human dignity and rights.

Christ Burgwald and Fitz,

I think you missed the point. I said, "If embryos were legal persons, and the killing of embryos was legal homicide...."

When abortion was outlawed in America in the past, it was generally a much lesser crime than murder or manslaughter, because embryos and fetuses generally were not recognized as "persons" or "human beings" as those terms are used in murder and manslaughter statutes. And abortion generally was not defined in law as a form of "homicide" (the killing of a "person" or a "human being").

But you do seek to include embryos in the legal category "persons" or "human beings," don't you?

And you do seek to include both induced abortion and the intentional destruction of embryos outside the womb as "homicide," don't you?

If you do, then as I said, those acts would clearly fall under the legal definition of "murder" in most cases.

To illustrate this, you only need to look at existing murder statutes. Under current California law, for example, the intentional killing of a fetus by a third party without the consent of the mother is already recognized as murder, and a person who commits such an act is already subject to prosecution for that crime. I assume you do not oppose treating abortion as murder in such cases.

But you want to go further, and remove the "without the consent of the mother" condition, right? You want to treat abortion as murder regardless of whether the mother consents to it or not, right?

Chris:

ANSWER MY QUESTION. 2 identical twins, Sherri and Terri. Now, was the original zygote Sherri, Terri, or some other person?

Or was it not a person at all?

DON'T DUCK. Answer the specific question.

"This time you are wrong. Pro-lifers privilege all life equally. By protecting the innocent human life from exploitation in medical research they are insuring your human dignity from the same collapse."

So my human dignity, whatever that is, is more important than MY LIFE. How warped you must be? (And by the way, I don't think conservative morality ACTUALLY gives a crap about human dignity-- after all, keeping people alive in persistent vegetative states is not dignified.)

And further, WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DEFINE WHAT I CONSIDER DIGNIFIED? Go ahead, SUBJECT ME TO THE INDIGNITY OF SAVING MY LIFE WITH DEAD BLASTOCYSTS. PLEASE! You can go ahead and die if you want. I'll attend your funeral. But I want to live, and don't particularly care if you kill unfeeling, unthinking, meaningless blastocysts to do it.

"Now we have made human life into a commodity. Something that is considered justifiable and necessary to kill for the “greater good”. One life that has the power and influence (grown adults) exploit the vulnerable and weak as a class that must necessarily be killed for its benefit."

No, we are turning BLASTOCYSTS into a commodity. Blastocysts which have only ONE of the laundry list of chararacteristics of human personhood. Blastocysts that were never thought to be persons until the pro-life movement decided that life had to begin at conception (a decision that had as much to do with sloganeering and sexism as it did with science and philosophy).

Blastocysts ARE a commodity. There is no slippery slope. Nobody's going to kill me because we authorize killing blastocysts. The only slippery slope is to early term abortion rights-- and early term abortion is an unmitigated social good that allows women the ability to separate sex from childbearing and therefore enjoy sex for pleasure without sacrificing their careers and their equality.

Mixner,

You said,

Of course, the reason I'm asking the question is to illustrate what I consider to be the absurdity of your position. The idea that one microsecond there is merely worthless tissue, and a microsecond later there is a full-blown human person, with a right to life comparable to that of a newborn baby, seems to me so counterintuitive and silly that I can't imagine most people could ever be persuaded to accept it.

Regarding which I asked:

Aren't you a supporter of abortion rights? Doesn't doing so require you to draw just such a line?

You claim that you don't have to draw just such a distinction. If you support abortion rights, then you must necessarily support some kind of dividing line between human beings that may be killed with impunity, and those that may not. Whether the line is at birth, at the first or second trimester, or based upon some capacity that the developing organism obtains, you are drawing a line such that prior to that point, it is morally licit to kill the developing child, while after that point it is not. The fact that this line may vary by circumstance under your scheme of rights doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Dilan,

So my human dignity, whatever that is, is more important than MY LIFE. How warped you must be? (And by the way, I don't think conservative morality ACTUALLY gives a crap about human dignity-- after all, keeping people alive in persistent vegetative states is not dignified.)

How can you say, in one sentence, that you don't know what constitutes human dignity, and then turn around sentences later and offer a definitive statement about what is not dignified? The question is, in what does human dignity inhere, and what is it's source? Human dignity inheres in human beings, and it's source is our nature as moral beings.

And further, WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DEFINE WHAT I CONSIDER DIGNIFIED?

What gives you the right to define what I consider dignified? We're trying to have a discussion about the nature of human dignity. If you were arguing with a Muslim who believed that non-Muslims were by nature inferior beings, with lesser rights than Muslims, would you think it OK for him to say, "what gives you the right to define what I consider dignified?" Would that end the debate for you?

No, we are turning BLASTOCYSTS into a commodity.

Blatocysts are human, and they are alive. Capitalizing their name doesn't change that.

Blastocysts which have only ONE of the laundry list of chararacteristics of human personhood.

Says you. I don't think there is such a laundry list. Perhaps you could spell out your list for us, and explain how many checkmarks a being has to have in order for it to have a claim not to be killed. 3 out of 4? 5 out of 7? What is it?


Blastocysts that were never thought to be persons until the pro-life movement decided that life had to begin at conception (a decision that had as much to do with sloganeering and sexism as it did with science and philosophy).

The pro-life movement didn't just "decide" that - it had always held that as soon as life was detectable in the womb, it should be protected by law. Hence the references to quickening in Judaic and medieval law. Once science demonstrated the cellular details of conception, pro-lifers applied the concept consistently to protect the earliest forms of human life.

Blastocysts ARE a commodity. There is no slippery slope. Nobody's going to kill me because we authorize killing blastocysts.

You have a particular set of characteristics that a human being must obtain in order to have moral and legal rights not to be killed. But you haven't clearly articulated the reasons why those characteristics are a sufficient grounding for human rights. At the very least, you haven't convinced anyone here that your rights criteria are sound. If you can't defend these rights in a principled way from the "conservative" side, what makes you think you can defend them from the other side? Do you agree with Peter Singer that infants can be killed with moral impunity, or not? If not, what is the basis for the rights the infant has not to be killed?

The only slippery slope is to early term abortion rights-- and early term abortion is an unmitigated social good that allows women the ability to separate sex from childbearing and therefore enjoy sex for pleasure without sacrificing their careers and their equality.

An "unmitigated" social good? There is no such thing - any social good can turn into a social harm if it occurs too frequently, or if it occurs in different circumstances. Those are the words of a true ideologue. Even the Hillary Clinton's of the world acknowledge that abortion ought to be rare. Note that you didn't even say that the choice for an early term abortion is an unmitigated good - you said the abortion itself is an unmitigated good. Taken literally, the conclusion is that every pregnancy should be terminated in the first trimester. But I'm sure you were just being sloppy with your wording.

Here's a few things that mitigate the good of first-trimester abortions:

1) Some women who have abortions regret their decision afterwords and/or become depressed because of it.

2) Some men coerce women into having an abortion, even though the woman doesn't want to.

3) Some men abandon women they have impregnated, because they claim it is solely the woman's choice to keep the baby, and thus the men have no responsibility for supporting either the woman or the child. Note the logic here - most men in such a situation wouldn't argue that they don't have some obligation to support the woman prior to her getting pregnant. But suddenly if she gets pregnant and decides to keep the baby, all of his obligations suddenly disappear.

4) Some women die from botched abortions, or due to complications from abortions.

Dilan, please drop the caps, as well as the ad hominem. Thanks.

I did answer your question. I'll be more succinct for you, though: the original zygote was one of the twins, and the second was created at twinning. Without somehow marking the original zygote prior to twinning, we couldn't know if it was the twin later named Sherri or her sister, Terri, but regardless, it was one of them.

I've answered your question. Will you answer mine, now? What is your definition of a human person? Or, what are the *essential* attributes of a human person, without which there is no person?

One more question: suppose neonatal stem cells possessed some feature which was found to be useful in curing diseases, would you support neonatal stem cell research in which the neonate was destroyed? If not, what's the essential difference between a embryonic human being and a neonatal human being, by which the former is a mere commodity, but the latter isn't?

Here is Ramesh Ponnuru discussion some similar issues while reviewing Lee Silver's Challenging Nature: The Clash of Science and Spirituality at the New Frontiers of Life.

The phenomenon of twinning poses a problem, in Silver's mind, for pro-lifers: how can an embryo be held to be an individual human being if it can split into two embryos? To see his way out of this problem, he should consider his own advocacy of cloning human embryos for research and therapeutic uses. The goal is to treat a patient by taking one of his cells and using it to create an embryo that is genetically his identical twin. If this procedure were done on a patient, it would not call into question his own status as an individual human being with a right not to be killed. The fact that a twin human embryo can be spontaneously created from an embryo shouldn't call its status into question, either.

Mike S,

You seem to have misunderstood. Re-read the text of mine you quoted. The line that you asked me about is a line representing a near-instantaneous transformation from "worthless tissue" to a "full-blown human person." I don't believe there is any such line. I don't need to believe there is any such line to support abortion rights.

Do you believe there is such a line, and if so where do you draw it?

Do you believe that embryos are "persons" or "human beings?" If you do, why do you not seek laws that treat abortion, and the killing of embryos outside the womb (as in stem cell research, for example) as the crime of murder or manslaughter?

Chris Burgwald,

Suppose an angry husband or boyfriend learns that his wife/girlfriend is pregnant and kills her fetus without her consent, by slipping her a dose of RU486, or shooting her in the stomach, for example. Under current law in California, that man would be subject to prosecution for the crime of murder. Presumably, you agree with this law, since you think embryos and fetuses are "persons" or "human beings."

But if the woman consents to the killing, or kills the fetus herself, no one is subject to prosecution for murder. Under California law, the act would be a legal abortion.

Now explain to me why you think the abortion should be treated as murder if a third party does it without the pregnant woman's consent, but as some much lesser crime than murder if the woman does consent, or if she performs the abortion herself.

Mixner, I honestly haven't spent too much time considering what the legal punishment for the procurement of abortion should be... my focus has been on trying to get people like yourself to recognize the humanity of the embryonic human being.

Having said that, my initial thought is that there is a presumption about the mother's awareness, intentionality, and state-of-mind in deciding to allow her child to be killed, as a result of which she wouldn't be charged with murder. Many mothers who seek an abortion today aren't very informed about the procedure they are undergoing. Consider, for instance, that many abortion clinics and their supporters fight against things like showing a woman an ultrasound of her child prior to the abortion, apparently because they are afraid of how it might impact the woman's decision.

As I said, though, I haven't given this dimension much consideration.

Fitz/Chris Burgwald/Gabriel,

Here's an article from the New York Times Magazine about abortion and abortion law in El Salvador: Pro-Life Nation.

According to the article, the El Salvador penal code criminalizes abortion under a section called Crimes Against the Life of Human Beings in the First Stages of Development. The law provides for stiff penalties. A woman who has even an early abortion can get anywhere from 2 to 8 years in jail. Anyone who helps her can get 2 to 5 years. And if the fetus is deemed to be viable, the abortion may be classified as the crime of "aggravated homicide," and the woman can get sentenced to 30 to 50 years in jail.

Is this the kind of law you seek for the United States? Based on what you have said, you should support even tougher laws against abortion. The El Salvador law treats post-viability abortion as a much more serious crime than pre-viability abortion. But you don't see any significant moral difference between them, right? In your view, even before viability abortion is the killing of a "person" or a "human being," right?

Chris Burgwald,

Having said that, my initial thought is that there is a presumption about the mother's awareness, intentionality, and state-of-mind in deciding to allow her child to be killed, as a result of which she wouldn't be charged with murder. Many mothers who seek an abortion today aren't very informed about the procedure they are undergoing. Consider, for instance, that many abortion clinics and their supporters fight against things like showing a woman an ultrasound of her child prior to the abortion, apparently because they are afraid of how it might impact the woman's decision.

There is no presumption in our criminal justice system that a person who commits a criminal act is not guilty, or is guilty only of some lesser crime, by reason of a lack of "awareness" or "state of mind." Any claim of diminished responsibility on those grounds would have to be established by evidence on a case-by-case basis. And it would a very difficult claim to prove. The insanity defense is rarely successful. The vast majority of women who have abortions would clearly not qualify as insane, or mentally impaired in some other way that would relieve them of responsibility for their actions. In most cases, the abortion would obviously be both intended and premeditated.

If abortion were included in murder laws, the idea that a woman who had an abortion would be able to secure an acquittal from the charge of murder on the grounds that she lacked "awareness" because she hadn't seen an ultrasound image of her fetus is laughable.

Mixner, Fitz has already alluded to the gradations present in our legal system regarding the death of someone and how it's addressed legally. You seem to be treating the issue as if every killing is worthy of a first degree murder charge, which is obviously not the case.

You might also consult the laws of various states, which already have legislation on the books outlawing abortion should Roe v. Wade someday be overturned.

Chris Burgwald,

Mixner, Fitz has already alluded to the gradations present in our legal system regarding the death of someone and how it's addressed legally. You seem to be treating the issue as if every killing is worthy of a first degree murder charge, which is obviously not the case.

You're not listening. Given the legal definitions of the terms how would abortion count as mere "reckless endangerment" or as mere "wanton neglect" rather than as murder or manslaughter? State law generally defines murder as the intentional killing of an innocent human being, or the intentional killing of an innocent person. That is exactly what you consider induced abortion to be, right? It's exactly what you consider the intentional killing of an embryo in a petri dish to be, right? These acts are not mere "endangerment" or "neglect," they are acts of homicide, in your opinion, right?

When I see abortion protesters, their signs read "Abortion Kills Children" or other words to that effect (sometimes, they actually use the word "murder.") Are you now telling me you think these signs misrepresent the true nature of abortion, and that the signs should use the words "Neglect" or "Endanger" rather than "Kill?"

Is abortion homicide in the strict legal sense? I don't know; as I said, the legal side isn't something I've focused on.

I wonder if you think that whatever inconsistency you see in pro-lifers indicates that we don't "really" think an embryo has the same rights and dignity as you and I do... such is definitely not the case. Instead, it indicates that we do in fact that seriously the fact that abortion is almost always a difficult decision for a woman, and that we are well aware of the circumstances that can lead her to such decision, and we take that into account when considering the question of legal sanctions. Abortion rights supporters like to imagine pro-lifers are callous to women and the difficult situations they might find themselves in which might lead them to contemplate abortion; such is manifestly not the case, as is indicated by the fact that we *wouldn't* want to include a prison sentence for the mother as part of the legal sanction against abortion. Does that mean we'd extend more mercy to a mother who choses abortion than someone else who seeks the death of someone? Perhaps. Are we wrong to do so? I don't think so.

Chris Burgwald,

I wonder if you think that whatever inconsistency you see in pro-lifers indicates that we don't "really" think an embryo has the same rights and dignity as you and I do

Yes, that's exactly what I think. You keep claiming that you believe embryos and fetuses are "persons" or "human beings," and that abortion and embryo-destruction are acts of killing. Yet you seem unwilling to treat embryos and fetuses as persons or human beings, and unwilling to treat abortion and embryo-destruction as acts of killing, when it comes to actual law and public policy. Your statements of belief seem to be purely rhetorical. When it comes to their real-world implications, you don't really believe them.

Instead, it indicates that we do in fact that seriously the fact that abortion is almost always a difficult decision for a woman, and that we are well aware of the circumstances that can lead her to such decision, and we take that into account when considering the question of legal sanctions.

Again this is irrelevant. Laws against murder and manslaughter do not make an exception for killers for whom the decision to kill was "difficult." They're still guilty of the crime of murder if their action fits the legal definition. If the killer demonstrates remorse for her crime, the judge and jury might take that into consideration when determining her sentence, but the crime would still be murder.

we *wouldn't* want to include a prison sentence for the mother as part of the legal sanction against abortion.

This makes absolutely no sense. If abortion is like the killing of a baby, why should women get jail time for killing their babies but not for killing their fetuses? And what about couples who discard (that is, kill) their excess embryos left over from In-Vitro Fertilization? And what about stem-cell researchers who kill human embryos in a petri dish as part of their scientific research? What kind of criminal penalties do you seek to impose on them?

Chris:

"I did answer your question. I'll be more succinct for you, though: the original zygote was one of the twins, and the second was created at twinning. Without somehow marking the original zygote prior to twinning, we couldn't know if it was the twin later named Sherri or her sister, Terri, but regardless, it was one of them."

Wrong answer. You can't "mark" the zygote. The earlier answers were at least closer to the truth, in that the zygote does reproduce via asexual reproduction into two cells. When a single-cell bacterium splits into two cells, we don't say that either of the resulting bacterium cells was the predecessor.

But the problem with that position is that the pro-life position is not simply that the zygote is alive-- of course the zygote is alive, as are the sperm and the egg that preceded it. It is that the zygote is a UNIQUE PERSON.

But Sherri and Terri's personhoods did not begin at conception. They began when the zygote split. Indeed, the cloning hypotheticals show this. If you cloned yourself, the clone's personhood would begin not at conception, but at cloning. Before that time, the clone would not have existed.

This is deadly to the pro-life cause, because the single event that is supposed to provide us with the bright line rule-- conception-- turns out to be no more bright line than any other rule in terms of establishing PERSONHOOD (not life).

Ponnuru's argument is circular. Yes, of course he's right that just because the zygote divided doesn't mean the zygote wasn't previously alive. But "life" isn't what we are talking about-- we are talking about personhood. And in his cloning example, you have an actual person with undisputed status. With the zygote, he is begging the question, because the status of the zygote is exactly what he is trying to establish.

I'll handle the abortion stuff separately:

"Here's a few things that mitigate the good of first-trimester abortions:

"1) Some women who have abortions regret their decision afterwords and/or become depressed because of it."

a. I don't think it's that many women.
b. Much of the blame for this goes to pro-lifers who are barraging them with the message that this perfectly correct choice violates some phony principle of morality.
c. If they are prone to depression or regret, the last thing they want to do is have the baby-- that's 18 years of potential depression or regret.

2) Some men coerce women into having an abortion, even though the woman doesn't want to.

a. Again, I don't think it's that many women.
b. There are laws against this. If pro-lifers are concerned about such coercion, push to have the laws enforced. I don't know any pro-life groups who are doing this.

3) Some men abandon women they have impregnated, because they claim it is solely the woman's choice to keep the baby, and thus the men have no responsibility for supporting either the woman or the child. Note the logic here - most men in such a situation wouldn't argue that they don't have some obligation to support the woman prior to her getting pregnant. But suddenly if she gets pregnant and decides to keep the baby, all of his obligations suddenly disappear.

a. If the woman chooses an abortion, the man's disappearance is irrelevant.
b. If the woman keeps the baby, the man is on the hook for support. Again, if you want to get tough on deadbeat dads, I am all in favor. As far as I know, this isn't a prominent project of the pro-life movement.

4) Some women die from botched abortions, or due to complications from abortions.

Far, far less than those who died of illegal abortions.

"I've answered your question. Will you answer mine, now? What is your definition of a human person? Or, what are the *essential* attributes of a human person, without which there is no person?"

Essentialism, as any feminist or philosopher will tell you, is an easy way to argue your way into ridiculous positions. There is no "essential" attribute of a human person, in the sense of being the one thing that, where it is present, a human person exists and, where it is absent, a human person does not exist.

What there are is a laundry list of factors, which I listed in my June 21 10:30 p.m. post above. Some combination of those factors equal personhood. However, there is no bright line.

Why? Because life is complicated, philosophy is uncertain, the messy decisions of humanity cannot be fit in neat little categories, and nobody has given us a guide that spells out the answers to this. (Sorry Christians, the Bible doesn't do this either.)

What you are looking for is a very simple answer to a very complex question, a question that comes up in numerous scenarios that are very different than each other. You want a simple theory that will apply straightforwardly to the morality of: (a) condoms, (b) morning after pills, (c) IUD's, (d) RU486 pills, (e) embryonic stem cell research, (f) other forms of stem cell research, (g) infanticide, (h) euthanasia, (i) the death penalty, (j) warfare, (k) self defense, (l) assisted suicide, (m) persistent vegetative states, (n) comas, (o) brain death, and (p) artificial life support.

There is no such theory that is coherent. Those situations are all very different from each other. I am struck how sometimes those on the conservative side of bioethics questions condemn our tendency to "play God"-- but nothing "plays God" more than asserting that one knows the essential answer to differing questions that have vexed philosophers for as long as human beings have had conscious thought.

"One more question: suppose neonatal stem cells possessed some feature which was found to be useful in curing diseases, would you support neonatal stem cell research in which the neonate was destroyed? If not, what's the essential difference between a embryonic human being and a neonatal human being, by which the former is a mere commodity, but the latter isn't?"

There is no essential difference. There is simply a laundry list of factors. At some point, enough of the laundry list is present that personhood must be protected.

A born baby thinks, feels pain, can survive without the mother, AND has the unique DNA that pro-lifers point to. It has far more aspects of personhood than the zygote does.

Look, I get the feeling that you think all pro-choicers are Peter Singer (who argues, wrongly, that there is no ethical bar to infanticide). I get the feeling that pro-lifers would LIKE all pro-choicers to be Peter Singer. But most of us recognize the muddle for what it is, with the zygote being the clearest case for "no personhood", the born baby a very clear case for "personhood", and a bunch of development stages in between where the fetus acquires various aspects that at some point give it an interest in its life.

Briefly on the twinning:

There is a homo sapien (which a gamete is not) prior to twinning; there are two afterward. Because I identify the human person with the homo sapien, it's obvious that one began at conception, while the other began when twinning was complete. Pro-lifers have been acknowledging the latter for some time, Dilan... we point to conception because that's when 95%+ of us began to exist, but some of us do begin to exist at twinning (or when cloning is accomplished, etc.). So, conception *and its analogues* (twinning, cloning) is the beginning of every homo sapien, and therefore every human person.

Chris Burgwald,

You claim that embryos and fetuses are "persons" or "human beings." I'm still waiting for you to explain why you are unwilling to treat them as persons and human beings under the law.

A scientist intentionally kills an embryo in a petri dish as part of his stem cell research. Is this murder, in your opinion, or isn't it? If it's not murder, why isn't it murder?

A married couple intentionally discard the excess embryos left over after they have conceived a child using in-vitro fertilization. Is this murder, in your opinion, or isn't it? If it's not murder, why isn't it murder?

A single woman becomes pregnant and decides to have an abortion because a baby would interfere with her career. There is no evidence that she is mentally impaired in any way. Her decision is intentional and premeditated. She is fully aware of the effects of the abortion on the fetus. Is this murder in your opinion, or isn't it? If it's not murder, why isn't it murder?

Mixner, you've gotten my answer on the issue. The proverbial horse is dead and, by now, thoroughly decomposed.

Dilan, I'll respond in more detail tomorrow.

Mixner says that "Your statements of belief seem to be purely rhetorical. When it comes to their real-world implications, you don't really believe them."

One must make the distinction between the moral law and the positive law. What we have been discussing is the moral law - is it morally licit to intentionally kill a human being prior to its having left the birth canal? The positive law is the mechanism by which we try to apply the moral law in particular circumstances. One cannot refute an argument regarding moral law by insisting that it requires that a particular positive (i.e. legislative) law must necessarily follow, and that failure to support said positive law implies a rejection of the underlying moral law. One can only argue that a particular positive law is inconsistent or unjust with respect to the moral law; this does not constitute an argument for or against the moral law, but an argument about what the positive law ought to be.

In determining what the positive law ought to be, a variety of factors, including competing moral imperatives, come into play. In the case of wrongful killing we have to consider justice for the victim, the deterrent interest of society, and the rights of the perpetrator to be treated humanely.

Let's say someone thought that Bush acted criminally in invading Iraq, and was therefore complicit in the subsequent deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis. Proposed punishments range from removal from office to jail time. I suppose there may be a few people who advocate the death penalty. Let's then suppose that a supporter of the invasion were to tell an opponent that unless they supported life in jail, or perhaps the death penalty, for Bush, they weren't really serious about their objections to the war - after all, he supposedly caused the deaths of thousands of innocents through was was at best gross negligence. Shouldn't a proportional punishment involve life in jail at the very least? Clearly, if you aren't advocating life in jail for the president, you aren't really serious about your objections to his actions vis-a-vis Iraq - you're just interesting in partisan politics. (Note that this argument stands even if a given individual would advocate for life in jail: presumably they would not reject as insincere the position of others who objected to the invasion but would be satisfied with Bush's impeachment & removal from office.)

Dilan,

Re: early abortions

You said that early abortions were an "unmitigated social good". I merely pointed out ways in which this was a false statement. Putting the modifier of "a few" instead of "some" in front of those examples does not affect the point.

Re: twinning

But the problem with that position is that the pro-life position is not simply that the zygote is alive-- of course the zygote is alive, as are the sperm and the egg that preceded it. It is that the zygote is a UNIQUE PERSON.

The sperm and the egg are not alive in the same way that a zygote is, because they cannot develop into anything but a sperm cell or an egg - they are no different from any of the trillions of somatic cells in this regard. It is only once they combine to form a zygote that they become something ontologically different.

Pro-choicers have difficulty with the twinning question precisely because they are focused on the dualism of the body vs. the soul (or mind - hence their association of mental activity with personhood). Religious believers have contributed in some cases to this confusion, but the origin of the soul is a red herring in this debate. (I used to be somewhat puzzled by this, as well.) A zygote is undeniably a unique human being. After twinning, or cloning, it is undeniable that there are two unique human beings. The objection above only makes sense if "UNIQUE PERSON" means something besides "distinct human being". The implicit assumption is that the biological entity must have a unique soul associated with it, and that it must be associated with only one organism.

The question of whether a soul is associated with a developing human being, and, if so, when that association begins, is indeed a theological question that cannot be answered by empirical investigation. But if one is going to insert ensoulment into the debate, it is easily dealt with by asserting that any live human being automatically has a soul as part of it's nature. The original zygote has a soul; during the process of twinning, the original soul is associated with one of the daughter cells, while the second cell obtains a soul as soon as it comes into existence. The point here is not to argue about the existence of the soul, but to point out that the argument against killing embryos is not affected by the question.

This is deadly to the pro-life cause, because the single event that is supposed to provide us with the bright line rule-- conception-- turns out to be no more bright line than any other rule in terms of establishing PERSONHOOD (not life).

Yes, that's why it's called the "Pro-personhood" movement. Oh, wait...

Re: essentialism

Why? Because life is complicated, philosophy is uncertain, the messy decisions of humanity cannot be fit in neat little categories, and nobody has given us a guide that spells out the answers to this.

Richard Rorty lives on...

You want a simple theory that will apply straightforwardly to the morality of: (a) condoms, (b) morning after pills, (c) IUD's, (d) RU486 pills, (e) embryonic stem cell research, (f) other forms of stem cell research, (g) infanticide, (h) euthanasia, (i) the death penalty, (j) warfare, (k) self defense, (l) assisted suicide, (m) persistent vegetative states, (n) comas, (o) brain death, and (p) artificial life support.

That a theory is consistent does not mean it must necessarily be "simple", nor does it mean that a theory that is consistent will be straightforward to apply in all possible circumstances.

a) and f) are not relevant to the killing of a human being, b)-e) and g) are all the same issue (killing of nascent human life), h) and l)-o) are all the same issue (under what circumstances can one cause the death of an adult who is ill), and i)-k) are the same issue (when is it OK to kill in order to protect oneself or others). ( p) is redundant, since it is implicit in m)-o).) The last group isn't relevant to the question of the definition of a human person, since nobody is disputing that those killed are human person, merely whether their killing is morally justifiable. The same is true for most of the second group: in the cases of euthanasia, assisted suicide, and comas, there is little dispute that the individuals are human persons - again the question is whether they may be killed.

So, the question applies to nascent life, on the one hand, and to the end of life, on the other. And in fact the designation of brain death links the two quite nicely: if the brain is dead, then the organism is clearly not functioning as an integrated, self-directed whole anymore, which is a key distinction at the beginning of life as well.

Look, I get the feeling that you think all pro-choicers are Peter Singer (who argues, wrongly, that there is no ethical bar to infanticide). I get the feeling that pro-lifers would LIKE all pro-choicers to be Peter Singer. But most of us recognize the muddle for what it is, with the zygote being the clearest case for "no personhood", the born baby a very clear case for "personhood", and a bunch of development stages in between where the fetus acquires various aspects that at some point give it an interest in its life.

No, we think that Peter Singer honestly applies the principles of most of the pro-abortion lobby, and we give him credit for having the courage of his convictions. Many people basically agree with him, but are afraid to say so because it is impolite or impolitic. But the point is, for those such as yourself who purport to disagree with him, that the positions you hold logically lead to his positions. Your gradualist, muddled notion of personhood cannot be used to argue that Singer's position is morally wrong (though it would be entertaining to see you try). You can't even articulate which of the "bunch of development stages" confer personhood, or why those stages do so. It's just a bunch of assertions, with no reasons to back them up.

Chris Burgwald,

No, you haven't answered my questions about the laws you seek regarding abortion and embryo-destruction. You've just waffled and evaded and said you haven't really thought about it. The obvious implication is that you don't really believe that embryos and fetuses are "persons" or "human beings." I rather doubt you'll be able to persuade others to accept a theory of life and personhood that you do not accept yourself.

Mike S,

If embryos and fetuses are persons, why should the killing of embryos and fetuses be excluded from our murder and manslaughter laws?

I rather doubt you'll be able to persuade others to accept a theory of life and personhood that you do not accept yourself.

Interesting, Mixner, that rather than address my arguments demonstrating the personhood of the embryonic human being, you chose to focus on the fact that I don't want to send women who seek abortions to prison. It's a pretty weak way to respond to an argument.

Again: I do accept what I'm arguing (obviously). Does my view mean that we might have to adapt the legal code in some instances? Perhaps. So what? Again, though, this completely tangential to the question of what the embryo *is*, an issue that you've chosen to bypass. I'd rather address the legal implications *after* you acknowledge that the embryonic homo sapien has the same dignity as does an adolescent homo sapien. That's the more sensical way to address this anyway: before you can decide how to handle something legally, you have to agree on what that "thing" is. That's what I'm doing here.

Mike S.:

"No, we think that Peter Singer honestly applies the principles of most of the pro-abortion lobby, and we give him credit for having the courage of his convictions."

My point about pro-lifers WANTING pro-choicers to all be Peter Singer stands.

Look, Peter Singer is a STRAW MAN. As I said, pro-choicers have lots of arguments which are based on the complexity of these issues, the absence of clear moral lines, and the importance to living breathing women of the abortion right, which outweighs the ethical muddle. Except at some point it doesn't, which is why some pro-choicers are only pro-choice through the first trimester, some are only pro-choice pre-viability, some oppose partial birth abortion, and some are pro-choice to the moment of birth.

Here you have a movement with a big diversity of positions, based on philosophical precepts that in many cases do not justify any sort of infanticide, and all you want to do is talk about the ONE important pro-choicer who favors infanticide. That would be like refusing to debate your position on abortion and insisting that the "only" pro-lifers with the courage of their convictions are those who bomb abortion clinics.

That wouldn't be fair to your position, or your movement. Please be fair to mine.

"Why? Because life is complicated, philosophy is uncertain, the messy decisions of humanity cannot be fit in neat little categories, and nobody has given us a guide that spells out the answers to this.

"Richard Rorty lives on..."

I am not sure what is meant by this, other than the worst sort of anti-intellectualism.

Look, the issue is complicated. Making fun of me saying it is complicated does not make it less complicated. It simply means that you don't want to confront the complexity.

"a) and f) are not relevant to the killing of a human being, b)-e) and g) are all the same issue (killing of nascent human life), h) and l)-o) are all the same issue (under what circumstances can one cause the death of an adult who is ill), and i)-k) are the same issue (when is it OK to kill in order to protect oneself or others). ( p) is redundant, since it is implicit in m)-o).)"

You are simply wrong that these are all the same issues.

First, (a) and (f) are relevant to the issue. You are applying the same theory to them, by saying they don't involve the killing of a human being. That begs the question, of course, but it also consists of you applying your supposedly fixed, unmoveable standard to these situations.

(b) through (e) and (g) are not all the same issue either, for the reasons set forth above. Indeed, if you really believe that a zygote and a born baby are EXACTLY THE SAME THING, you really need to look at some photographs of them. Next you are going to tell me that a caterpillar is the same as a butterfly.

(h) and (l) through (o) are also not the same thing. Churches actually make very fine distinctions about when you can and can't do something that terminates an elderly person's life. Unfortunately, they refuse to make these same distinctions when we are dealing with abortion, even though they used to (e.g., allowing it before quickening). (Want to know why pro-choicers think pro-lifers are really about regulating female sexuality? That one's a clue.)

Finally, (i) through (k) get at something that, again, religious people seem to think is very important when the issue is war or the death penalty but which suddenly becomes unimportant in the case of abortion (pro-choicers suspect this is because female sexuality is at issue). And that is, when is it justified to kill? And again, there are all sorts of distinctions made. One situation is apparently not like another-- except when it's a zygote vs. a born baby. How fouled up you guys really are!

"Yes, that's why it's called the 'Pro-personhood' movement. Oh, wait..."

"Pro-life" is a slogan. As I said, the sperm and unfertilized egg are alive. So are animals. So are plants.

The anti-abortion movement is concerned with PERSONS, not all life. So even though it doesn't use that as its slogan, whether a zygote or fetus has aspects of PERSONHOOD is the issue that the whole debate turns on for them.

"There is a homo sapien (which a gamete is not) prior to twinning; there are two afterward. Because I identify the human person with the homo sapien, it's obvious that one began at conception, while the other began when twinning was complete. Pro-lifers have been acknowledging the latter for some time, Dilan... we point to conception because that's when 95%+ of us began to exist, but some of us do begin to exist at twinning (or when cloning is accomplished, etc.). So, conception *and its analogues* (twinning, cloning) is the beginning of every homo sapien, and therefore every human person."

But really, that doesn't answer my point. Pro-lifers put a lot of stock in the idea that life begins at conception. But for a nontrivial part of the population, it doesn't. So conception, again, doesn't provide the bright line rule that pro-lifers seem to think is necessary to prevent us from going all the way down the slippery slope to infanticide and slavery. Indeed, pro-lifers are apparently able to accept that life doesn't always begin at conception and not roll down the slippery slope. Apparently, it's only the rest of us who can't be trusted.

Further, there is a more fundamental point about twinning. Twinning is a great example about how the creation of life isn't simple. A lot of things happen in the womb. Zygotes and blastocysts are discarded and never make it into the endometrium. Some never make it out of the fallopian tube and become ectopic pregnancies. Some make it into the endometrium but then miscarry. Some lack the cells necessary to develop a brain, or a nervous system, or one or more limbs, or essential organs. Some twins fuse together at some point in the development cycle.

Again, this is a messy process. Of course once conception occurs you have the genetic blueprint for one-- or more-- persons. But that's all you have. Now a bunch of stuff has to happen or not happen for that genetic blueprint to result in a person. And it has to happen inside the body of a fully-formed adult who has her own dreams, her own aspirations, her own life, her own bodily integrity, etc.

You want to attach meaning to one event in this complex process, saying THERE, that's what did it! But you simply can't. And indeed, you don't, because when twinning occurs, you concede that in fact conception wasn't the "eureka" moment for one of the two lives created. There was another "eureka" moment.

Sorry, the correct answer is that there is no "eureka" moment. There are a series of things that have to happen, starting in the testes and the ova, for human reproduction to occur. A bunch of dominoes have to fall. Take any of those dominoes away and you don't get the chain reaction, and thus don't get a human life at the end.

Going into that process and drawing one bright line is artificial. And refusing to draw that bright line is not an invitation to infanticide, or slavery, or any other situation involving born human beings where the issues are different. It's just admitting that there are some things that are deep questions of philosophy, things that can only be made artificially simpler.

And when that artificial simplicity will ruin the lives of women, and ruin their ability to have full and rewarding careers, and full and rewarding sex lives, without being dependent on men for their well being, it is not worth it. Indeed, it is a deeply immoral pursuit.

Chris Burgwald,

Interesting, Mixner, that rather than address my arguments demonstrating the personhood of the embryonic human being, you chose to focus on the fact that I don't want to send women who seek abortions to prison. It's a pretty weak way to respond to an argument.

There's nothing weak about. If you don't even believe your own argument, why should anyone else? And the legal issues apply not just to abortion, but to the destruction of embryos and fetuses more broadly, as in stem cell research and IVF.

Does my view mean that we might have to adapt the legal code in some instances?

Of course it does. That's why you're trying to overturn Roe v. Wade, so you can pass laws against abortion. But you claim you haven't really given much thought to the kind of laws you seek.

You are keenly aware of the glaring contradiction between your claim that you believe embryos and fetuses to be persons or human beings, and your refusal to treat abortion and embryo destruction as anything more than a minor crime, if that. That's why you're being so evasive and obtuse. You know it, I know it, and pro-choice people in general know it. That's why we don't take people like you very seriously. When your actions are consistent with your words, then we might be persuaded that you really believe your own rhetoric.

Look, Peter Singer is a STRAW MAN.

No, he's not. He holds an influential position in bioethics at Princeton. And as I said, his view are widely shared in the academy and elsewhere, but most people aren't willing to state that in public.

As I said, pro-choicers have lots of arguments which are based on the complexity of these issues, the absence of clear moral lines, and the importance to living breathing women of the abortion right, which outweighs the ethical muddle.

None of those are arguments, they are assertions. Why don't you present the reasons behind one of these assertions?

Except at some point it doesn't, which is why some pro-choicers are only pro-choice through the first trimester, some are only pro-choice pre-viability, some oppose partial birth abortion, and some are pro-choice to the moment of birth.

Well, my "some point" is different from yours - why are you right and I'm wrong?

Here you have a movement with a big diversity of positions, based on philosophical precepts that in many cases do not justify any sort of infanticide

What are those philosophical precepts, and why do they preclude infanticide?

I am not sure what is meant by this, other than the worst sort of anti-intellectualism.

Look, the issue is complicated. Making fun of me saying it is complicated does not make it less complicated. It simply means that you don't want to confront the complexity.

Saying that something is complex or complicated and then throwing up ones hands is not a moral argument. One might even call it anti-intellectual.

First, (a) and (f) are relevant to the issue. You are applying the same theory to them, by saying they don't involve the killing of a human being. That begs the question, of course, but it also consists of you applying your supposedly fixed, unmoveable standard to these situations.

Condoms don't result in the death of any human being. Deriving stem cells from a source other than an embryo or a fetus don't result in the death of a human being.

(b) through (e) and (g) are not all the same issue either, for the reasons set forth above. Indeed, if you really believe that a zygote and a born baby are EXACTLY THE SAME THING, you really need to look at some photographs of them. Next you are going to tell me that a caterpillar is the same as a butterfly.

I never claimed that they were "EXACTLY THE SAME THING" (no need to shout, I can hear you just fine), I claimed that they are both living human beings, and that the right not to be killed inheres in human beings because of what they are, not what characteristics they happen to have at a particular stage in their development.

A caterpillar is not morphologically the same as a butterfly, but ontologically they are the same - they are the same organism at different stages of it's life cycle. An acorn doesn't look like an oak tree, but it is the same organism as the adult oak tree.

(h) and (l) through (o) are also not the same thing. Churches actually make very fine distinctions about when you can and can't do something that terminates an elderly person's life. Unfortunately, they refuse to make these same distinctions when we are dealing with abortion, even though they used to (e.g., allowing it before quickening).

Please, outline some of these "fine distinctions" that "churches" make.

(Want to know why pro-choicers think pro-lifers are really about regulating female sexuality? That one's a clue.)

One cannot separate regulation of female sexuality and regulation of male sexuality. Abortion affects men's sexual behavior as well as women's.

Why is it so preposterous to think that sexuality (women's or men's) needs to be regulated? All societies have formal and informal strictures that regulate sexuality. One can complain about particular mechanisms or goals of particular regulations, but to level a generic complaint about regulating sexuality seems foolish.

Finally, (i) through (k) get at something that, again, religious people seem to think is very important when the issue is war or the death penalty but which suddenly becomes unimportant in the case of abortion (pro-choicers suspect this is because female sexuality is at issue). And that is, when is it justified to kill? And again, there are all sorts of distinctions made. One situation is apparently not like another-- except when it's a zygote vs. a born baby. How fouled up you guys really are!

The same principle applies: one is not morally justified in intentionally killing innocent people. In self-defense and the death penalty, the person in question isn't innocent, and in war the intent is not to kill innocent persons, even if the death of some innocent people is a foreseeable consequence of war.

You keep waving around this claim of "complexity", "distinctions made", "it's complicated" like a flag, but you never explain what distinctions you are making, or why the principles applied in reasoning about, e.g., the death penalty, can't be applied consistently to the question of embryos or fetuses.

A lot of things happen in the womb.

A lot of things happen in life. Life is messy. These facts don't mean that we can't reason about moral law.

Mike S.:

"Look, Peter Singer is a STRAW MAN.

"No, he's not. He holds an influential position in bioethics at Princeton. And as I said, his view are widely shared in the academy and elsewhere, but most people aren't willing to state that in public."

With all respect, you are simply full of it. Singer has had exactly ZERO influence on this issue. NOBODY favors infanticide. No other academics advocate it. And how can you POSSIBLY claim to know what views people "widely share" but "aren't willing to state in public". Are you a mind-reader?

Maybe you need to actually talk to leaders of the pro-choice movement. You will find that exactly NONE of them advocate infanticide. NONE of them want it legal.

You must be living in a bubble to think that pro-choicers think that way.

"Saying that something is complex or complicated and then throwing up ones hands is not a moral argument. One might even call it anti-intellectual."

You seem to think it is an aspect of moral seriousness to draw lines even when there isn't a principled basis for drawing them and huge adverse effects will result to women from your drawing them there. It isn't.

"You keep waving around this claim of 'complexity', 'distinctions made', 'it's complicated' like a flag, but you never explain what distinctions you are making, or why the principles applied in reasoning about, e.g., the death penalty, can't be applied consistently to the question of embryos or fetuses."

I don't have to repeat myself. It's all in the posts above. Human persons have a list of characteristics that distinguish themselves from other organisms, and which, together, clearly indicate personhood. (Those characteristics are listed in my post above.) During the course of embryonic and fetal development, these characteristics are attained by the organism at different times. Thus, at any time in that process, you have an organism which shares some, but not all, of the aspects of personhood shared by human adults. The question of where to draw the line and declare personhood is thus arbitrary. There is no therefore particular reason why conception is the essential attribute that creates personhood, rather than some other attribute.

However, choosing conception is problematic, because doing so will absolutely ruin the lives of so many women who clearly are persons, and will make it impossible for women to achieve equality with men, a fundamental interest in society. It will also prevent research that may end up saving actual incontestable human lives.

Thus, you have a real, proveable, concrete claim of those who are clearly alive against an arbitrarily drawn, airy, philosophical, and deeply contested claim of personhood for the zygote which lacks all but one of the aspects of personhood.

And all you want to say in response to that is how it really is so easy. But it's not. It's difficult. I'm sorry that God, Christianity, notions of the soul, and genomic science don't tell us with any accuracy when a person become a person becomes a person, but they don't. And that complex position-- rather than the idiotic position of Peter Singer which is accepted by nobody else-- is the position you cannot refute.

"Why is it so preposterous to think that sexuality (women's or men's) needs to be regulated? All societies have formal and informal strictures that regulate sexuality. One can complain about particular mechanisms or goals of particular regulations, but to level a generic complaint about regulating sexuality seems foolish."

It's not a complaint about regulating sexuality per se. Obviously laws against rape, incest, exhibitionism, prostitution, etc., regulate sexuality. It's an accusation of bad faith. The particular sexuality of conservative Christian morality-- i.e., no sex until marriage (especially for women), no sex for nonprocreative purposes, etc.-- has been decisively and properly rejected by American society. So conservative Christians cannot get their agenda enacted directly. What they can do is try to make it more difficult for women (and, if you want, men, though I still think that conservatives seem much more concerned with stopping young women from having sex and making sure they are virgins at the time of marriage than with stopping men from "sowing their wild oats") to have the types of sex lives that conservative Christians disapprove of; abortion restrictions have that effect.

If conservatives were just open about this, i.e., "we think people shouldn't have sex before marriage and sex should always carry the risk of childbirth; restricting abortion creates the right incentives for this to happen, so we favor it", I think the charge of bad faith would go away and we'd debate that on the merits.

With all respect, you are simply full of it. Singer has had exactly ZERO influence on this issue. NOBODY favors infanticide. No other academics advocate it.

I suppose being on Time's 100 Most Influential People of 2005 list is a good indication that he has ZERO (again with the caps!) influence. So is the New York Times saying that "no other living philosopher has had this kind of influence." Or the New England Journal of Medicine claiming that no one had had "more success in effecting changes in acceptable behavior" than any philosopher since Bertrand Russell. Perhaps you should peruse the editorial reviews of his book Rethinking Life and Death: The Collapse of Our Traditional Ethics.

The more salient point is that his position vis-a-vis infanticide is inevitable if one is going to base rights on capacities rather than ontological status. Perhaps your "on this issue" is a way of acknowledging his influence in the euthanasia and/or animal rights movements. But his positions, and therefore his influence, on those topics are driven by precisely the same principles that drive his support for infanticide in some circumstances.

From a piece by Steven Pinker:

It seems obvious that we need a clear boundary to confer personhood on a human being and grant it a right to life. Otherwise, we approach a slippery slope that ends in the disposal of inconvenient people or in grotesque deliberations on the value of individual lives. But the endless abortion debate shows how hard it is to locate the boundary. Anti-abortionists draw the line at conception, but that implies we should shed tears every time an invisible conceptus fails to implant in the uterus -- and, to carry the argument to its logical conclusion, that we should prosecute for murder anyone who uses an IUD. Those in favor of abortion draw the line at viability, but viability is a fuzzy gradient that depends on how great a risk of an impaired child the parents are willing to tolerate. The only thing both sides agree on is that the line must be drawn at some point before birth.

Neonaticide forces us to examine even that boundary. To a biologist, birth is as arbitrary a milestone as any other. Many mammals bear offspring that see and walk as soon as they hit the ground. But the incomplete 9-month-old human fetus must be evicted from the womb before its outsize head gets too big to fit through its mother's pelvis. The usual primate assembly process spills into the first years in the world. And that complicates our definition of personhood.

What makes a living being a person with a right not to be killed? Animal-rights extremists would seem to have the easiest argument to make: that all sentient beings have a right to life. But champions of that argument must conclude that delousing a child is akin to mass murder; the rest of us must look for an argument that draws a smaller circle. Perhaps only the members of our own species, Homo sapiens, have a right to life? But that is simply chauvinism; a person of one race could just as easily say that people of another race have no right to life.

No, the right to life must come, the moral philosophers say, from morally significant traits that we humans happen to possess. One such trait is having a unique sequence of experiences that defines us as individuals and connects us to other people. Other traits include an ability to reflect upon ourselves as a continuous locus of consciousness, to form and savor plans for the future, to dread death and to express the choice not to die. And there's the rub: our immature neonates don't possess these traits any more than mice do.

The question of where to draw the line and declare personhood is thus arbitrary.

If the line is arbitrary, then why are you so adamant that it must be drawn prior to exiting the birth canal?

If a woman can choose to abort because having a child will negatively impact her career, is it OK for her to abort because the child will have some birth defect?

If it is OK to destroy an embryo so that some of its cells can be used in research or in treatment for another individual, is it OK to produce an embryo, gestate it for 4 or 5 or 6 months, kill it and remove some of its organs for treating someone else (something else that Singer claims is ethically acceptable)?

The reason I'm asking these questions about specific scenarios is that I'm trying to determine how you apply your notions of personhood and acceptable behavior in specific circumstances.

I'm sorry that God, Christianity, notions of the soul, and genomic science don't tell us with any accuracy when a person become a person becomes a person, but they don't.

You left out reason.

It's an accusation of bad faith. The particular sexuality of conservative Christian morality-- i.e., no sex until marriage (especially for women), no sex for nonprocreative purposes, etc.-- has been decisively and properly rejected by American society. So conservative Christians cannot get their agenda enacted directly.

But the point is that the pro-life movement, like any other widespread political or social movement, is more united on some points and less united on others. The pro-life movement is united in it's belief that Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided, and united in it's belief that abortion can and should be regulated by the states. It is less united on what those restrictions ought to be. It's still less united on the reasons for opposing abortion: some do, in fact, link the abortion license directly to the sexual revolution and the notion that sexual activity is or ought to be consequence-free. But not all those who make this link think that using IUDs or the Pill are wrong, and even the Catholic church (as far as I know) doesn't promote laws that ban the use of IUDs or the Pill.

What is bad faith is painting the whole pro-life movement as some sort of monolithic block, focusing on the positions of part of the movement, and ascribing those positions to the whole movement. It's also bad faith to fail to distinguish between what people want to occur judicially or legislatively, and what they believe about proper rules of conduct for people in their religious group. Most conservative Christians think sex outside of marriage ought to be discouraged, but there are very few who advocate for anti-fornication laws.

Mike S.:

You ignore what is the real bad faith-- that people who are not concerned about the sanctity of human life at all in most situations suddenly become very concerned about it in those situations where it can be used to regulate female sexuality and force women to bear consequences for non-marital sex. (See, e.g., President Bush saying that embryonic stem cell research could not be funded out of respect for the sanctity of life, and compare with his lack of concern for the lives of Americans and Iraqis in Iraq.)

"Perhaps your 'on this issue' is a way of acknowledging his influence in the euthanasia and/or animal rights movements."

That's the entire argument, Mike. Look, Dr. Linus Pauling had a huge influence on physics. He had zero influence on the science relating to Vitamin C. Similarly, Peter Singer is very influential on animal rights. But everyone think's he is an idiot on infanticide.

"If the line is arbitrary, then why are you so adamant that it must be drawn prior to exiting the birth canal?"

Because at birth, many of the dominoes I mentioned earlier have fallen. You now have a being who thinks, feels pain, is conscious, and can survive without his or her mother, plus has a unique DNA signature. You have a clear case for personhood. And that's why there is no slippery slope, except in the world of Peter Singer and in the minds of the religious extremists who claim that life begins at conception.

The murky issues relate to late term abortions, not zygotes and not born babies.

You now have a being who thinks, feels pain, is conscious, and can survive without his or her mother, plus has a unique DNA signature.

You have all those things (at least to the extent you have them in the newborn), in the 7th or 8th month of gestation, as well. If it is OK to arbitrarily draw your line after the umbilical cord is cut, why can't one draw the line prior to that? Of course, newborns can't think in the way that we normally employ the term. It also depends upon how you define conscious as to whether a newborn counts as conscious. Who is more conscious, or has more capacity to think, a newborn or an adult chimp or gorilla?

You cannot just dismiss Singer's arguments as irrelevant to newborns simply because you don't like the implications. His arguments about animal rights are based on the exact same arguments he uses to justify infanticide, namely, that personhood is based on consciousness and the ability to feel pain. Moreover, his arguments are precisely those that you use to define personhood.

Mike S,

Have you read Singer? Because you keep grossly misrepresenting him. I see that often among his critics, most of whom don't seem to have actually read the man's writings. For instance, Singer's arguments on animal rights are not based on any notion of personhood. And he doesn't define personhood on the basis of consciousness or the ability to feel pain. Singer generally avoids any argument that rests on a notion of "personhood" or "rights" and instead grounds his moral philosophy in the principle of equal consideration of interests. See Animal Liberation for Singer's arguments on animal rights and Practical Ethics for an explanation of his broader moral philosophy.

"You have all those things (at least to the extent you have them in the newborn), in the 7th or 8th month of gestation, as well. If it is OK to arbitrarily draw your line after the umbilical cord is cut, why can't one draw the line prior to that?"

I didn't say you couldn't. That's why late term, post-viability abortions are a tough issue. Indeed, the Supreme Court has drawn the line at viability for that very reason for 34 years.

There is a counter-argument, which is that you have to interfere with the woman's autonomy to save the baby. Thus, birth is an especially important domino.

But the point is, you have zygote-- clear case, no personhood. And you have birth-- clear case, personhood (except perhaps to Peter Singer, whom nobody listens to on this issue). And then you have a bunch of stages in between, separated not by bright lines but by fuzzy lines along a continuum. The fact that you can't tell the difference between subtle shades of green on the color spectrum doesn't mean that you can't tell the difference between red and blue on opposite ends of it.

Mixner,

Singer's arguments on animal rights are not based on any notion of personhood. And he doesn't define personhood on the basis of consciousness or the ability to feel pain. Singer generally avoids hany argument that rests on a notion of "personhood" or "rights" and instead grounds his moral philosophy in the principle of equal consideration of interests.

No, I haven't read his books. But I think this is just a semantic argument. The effect of the argument is, in fact, over which beings have intrinsic rights which the state, and individuals, have a duty to respect. "Personhood" is just a shorthand for "an entity with rights the state must recognize". It doesn't change the underlying argument to replace "it is my right not to be killed (or to have the doctor kill me" with "it is in my best interests not to be killed (or to have the doctor kill me)". In fact he is still talking about rights, he's just using a utilitarian framework for doing so.

And the particular criteria used are irrelevant: as I keep saying, the fundamental issue is whether human beings have intrinsic rights because they are human, or because of some set of characteristics that they happen to have obtained (or not lost) at a particular stage of life.

Dilan,

The fact that you can't tell the difference between subtle shades of green on the color spectrum doesn't mean that you can't tell the difference between red and blue on opposite ends of it.

This is true, but it is begging the question: do intrinsic rights develop on a continuum? If they do, then your analogy is apt; if they don't, the analogy is irrelevant. You've given no explanation for why one should believe that rights (specifically, the right not to be killed) develop on a continuum that is somehow linked to the developmental process.

All of life is a continuum, from conception to death. Why do you single out a particular section at the beginning of life (and possibly at the end, as well - we haven't discussed euthanasia) where a human being doesn't have any intrinsic rights? That is, the continuum continues beyond the blue wavelength into the ultraviolet and x-ray regions - saying that it ends at blue is arbitrary. At the beginning of life, as we've discussed, there is a clear beginning to the continuum. Which is why it is rational to assert that if human beings have rights because of the kind of being they are, that they have those rights from te moment they come into being.

I'll sign off for now, but I'd just like to point out that our differences stem from a single presumption; namely, whether human beings have rights because they are human beings, or because they have obtained particular characteristics during the course of development. In other circumstances, for example with regard to racism or subjugation of women in, e.g., Islam, I presume you would object to the placement of human beings into groups of beings bearing different categories of rights based upon particular characteristics. I'm simply applying that standard to age, rather than race or sex. Now, you obviously don't need to agree with me, but I think it's only fair to recognize that this is not some crazy, obscurantist notion that is rooted in some sort of narrow dogmatic interpretation of scripture. In short, grant that some pro-lifers are arguing in good faith based on rational principles (even if you think those principles are mistaken), and not simply mindlessly repeating some mantra handed down from a religious figure.

Mike S.:

Sure, intrinsic rights develop on a continuum. Indeed, you believe this just as much as I do. I am sure you agree that freedom of speech is an intrinsic right. Everyone has it. Jefferson would have said that we are endowed by our Creator with it. Yet it certainly develops on a continuum. We have none of it when we are born, little of it in primary and secondary school, and a full and complete free speech right as an adult.

But I would also note that you are begging the question. The very issue is when is this being considered a "person" at all. In other words, the law has to draw a line before which it has no rights. You want to draw it at conception, but that position runs into all sorts of problems that I have outlined above. So it's not that rights develop on a continuum, it's that you have a continuum of human development and you have to stake out an arbitrary place on this continuum and say "here is where we are going to declare personhood".

"All of life is a continuum, from conception to death. Why do you single out a particular section at the beginning of life (and possibly at the end, as well - we haven't discussed euthanasia) where a human being doesn't have any intrinsic rights?"

Because a zygote may be human, but it doesn't have the aspects of personhood. At some point, I just have to say it's all answered above. You can say "but it's human, but it's human, but it's human" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the zygote is a very different type of human being than a born person is. And because of that, the rights picture is very different. Your position makes no more sense than passing a law granting caterpillars the right to fly or butterflies the right to slither on the ground.

"At the beginning of life, as we've discussed, there is a clear beginning to the continuum"

No no no no no! The beginning is not clear at all. There are relevant events before that point (involving the creation of sperm and egg and their uniting) and after that point (implantation, a stage in which you would say that 50 percent of the population is tragically lost, twinning, various stages of development in the womb, and birth). Every time you say that conception is the "beginning", you are begging the question. You have a process, and a multitude of different things have to happen to get from the start to the end. The choice of any particular point in that process is arbitrary. Conception is no less arbitrary than any other point, both because it isn't really the start of all life even by your definition (see twinning) and because there are all sorts of other things that have to go right before that baby can come out of the womb 9 months later.

"I'll sign off for now, but I'd just like to point out that our differences stem from a single presumption; namely, whether human beings have rights because they are human beings, or because they have obtained particular characteristics during the course of development."

No, you only THINK that's our difference because you haven't actually thought about your premises very much.

I bet you that you haven't once written a legislator arguing for more funding for research to save the millions of zygotes killed every year when they don't implant in the uterus. Do you realize that there are probably drugs that could be developed that would save those lives if women took them, by making the endometrium more hospitable? Now I know this would cost money and impinge on human freedom, but life is the paramount value isn't it? And saving those lives is surely more important than the reproductive freedom of women-- we already know that because you want to prohibit abortion.

The fact of the matter is that you don't care about that at all. You aren't bothered by the death of all those zygotes. And the reason is-- wait for it-- you really DON'T think that just because something has 46 chromasomes, it is a person whose life we must care about.

Now I know that you can say that we aren't deliberately destroying those lives. That is true. But does that matter one bit for the question of whether we should do medical research into saving them? Do you not believe in cancer research, even though cancer isn't deliberately caused?

When you start writing those letters and campaigning to save the zygotes, I might credit your position that this is what you actually believe. In the meantime, I will assume that in fact you either haven't thought about the tragedy of the dead zygotes, or, more likely, you don't really think it's a tragedy. Because, in truth, more American zygotes die every year than the number of people killed by the Germans in the Holocaust. It is really the most immense loss of human life anywhere in the world.

Just something to think about while you feel smugly superior to those of us who actually acknowledge that this problem is difficult.