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The Future of Homosexuality, Again

20 Jun 2007 03:47 pm

A while back, during the whole "gay sheep" controversy, I remarked that if homosexuality can be detected in utero, we're likely to start aborting gay fetuses long before we start trying to "cure" them, because "there will almost certainly be a period of years or decades when it becomes possible to estimate your child's probability of homosexuality in utero, but not to 'inoculate' said child against same-sex attraction." But the more I read about the state of the science on same-sex attraction, the less I'm sure that's right. Consider this fascinating article on "The Science of Gaydar", which has this to say about the state of the "what causes homosexuality" debate:

Because many of these newly identified “gay” traits and characteristics are known to be influenced in utero, researchers think they may be narrowing in on when gayness is set—and identifying its possible triggers. They believe that homosexuality may be the result of some interaction between a pregnant mother and her fetus. Several hypothetical mechanisms have been identified, most pointing to an alteration in the flow of male hormones in the formation of boys and female hormones in the gestation of girls. What causes this? Nobody has any direct evidence one way or another, but a list of suspects includes germs, genes, maternal stress, and even allergy—maybe the mother mounts some immunological response to the fetal hormones.

So even if homosexuality turns out to have a genetic basis, which I assume it does, it's perfectly possible to imagine researchers finding a way (as the article puts it) "to regulate hormone flow and direct the baby’s orientation" without attaining any of the breakthroughs in gene therapy that would be required to reengineer the genes themselves. (Whereas with Down's Syndrome, say, it seems - based on my admittedly sketchy understanding of the science - to be gene therapy, abortion, or nothing.) In which case you won't have genetic screenings for homosexuality that force socially-liberal parents to decide whether their commitment to gay equality outweighs their desire for grandchildren, and socially-conservative parents to decide whether their opposition to abortion outweighs their distaste for the idea of gay offspring; you'll just have a regimen of hormone treatments that promises to keep your embryo straight, which is something that both sides of the culture war will find much easier to justify.

Anyway, that's just one of the interesting issues the article raises, so go read the whole thing.

Comments (52)

And will lesbian mothers-to-be (and perhaps some other progressive mothers-to-be) deploy hormones in such as way as to increase the likelihood of gay offspring?

What on earth makes you think having gay children means no grandchildren? There are a plethora of ways for gay people to become parents, and even if there weren't, their parents could become grandparents through their other children. I mean seriously, gay people have kids all the time, it's the subject of lots of political debate. Haven't you ever read Heather Has Two Mommies?

homosexuality could be biological without being genetic. that's an important distinction. since most down syndrome involves chromosomal abnormalities (trisomy) that would be a big bioengineering feat to fix from what i can tell.

z

Yes, but I think (not absolutely sure) that the statistics will indeed back up the claim that your gay son is _far less likely_ to have any offspring*. We all play the odds, not the "well, it could happen"s. And as to relying on other kids -- er, wouldn't that assume our upscale liberal couple is irresponsibly having more than 1 or 2 children? I dare say that will become increasingly statistically unlikely, too -- it already is if you look at red/blue state reproduction rates.


* that fascinating Canadian study showing that gay teens tend to get pregnant and impregnate more, perhaps in frantic searching for proof they're not gay or something suggests this might not be really true. But that is not the _kind_ of grandchildren most people want -- accidental results of high school experimentation.

Down's syndrome is by definition trisomy 21- and, yes, it would be quite a feat to have an effective treatment.

Well, it seems far from clear that "playing the odds" would lead most heterosexual couples to choose the hormone treatment even if it were available today, let alone at some future time. Acceptance of homosexuality is increasing. More gay couples are having kids (either through adoption or third-party arrangements). Fewer straight couples are having kids. The hormone treatment might create health risks or have unpleasant side effects or be expensive. Lots of considerations would probably factor into the decision. And, as Steve mentioned, gay people and their straight sympathizers might use the technology in the opposite way--to increase the number of gay people.

The fertility of male homosexuals is likely well below 50% of male heterosexuals and falling as fewer homosexuals pretend to be heterosexual.

Indeed, male homosexuality is unlikely to have evolved through natural selection, so there's a good chance it's caused at least in part by something else besides genes, such as a prenatal or childhood infection.

Well, I'd point to increasing rates of gay parenthood, and you seem to have forgotten that some gay people are women. Also, not all gay people are affluent. That's just a myth based on greater acceptance of homosexuality among the upper-middle and upper class. Lower-income gay people are probably more likely to be in the closet, but that's changing too, and will lead to an increase in gay parenthood.

z

But do you have any data other than anecdotes to suggest that the increasing rates hit anything like the rates for heterosexuals?

Lower-income gay people coming out will likely, unless you have some actual statistics here instead of silly "Heather has two mommies, Dan Savage and Rosie and Melissa Ethridge have kids!" anecdotes, lower gay fertility.

Anyway, people tend to want biological grandkids, not adopted ones.


But more to the point -- gay toleration and even the granting of (rather absurd) "rights" to gays seems more popular, sure. More people have gay friends. Realistic examination of human beings does not suggest this implies most people are super-happy at the thought of a gay kid, all things being equal. If the treatment is risky or expensive, sure, lots of folks would avoid it, and some guilty liberal conciences would be revolted in any case. But a lot of folks, even those who don't have much moral problem with gayness, might notice "you know, being gay, I notice myself, and am told all the time by gay advocates, is hard. Society is and will be built for straight majorities. Gays have more depression, alcholoism, and suicide. Maybe that's innate, maybe it's society's fault. In any case, it's not a fate I want for my kid."

That some gays and friends would use a treatment to ensure homosexuality if possible is pretty certain -- but play the odds.

Interesting (in a sadistic sense)...but why on earth will you want to fill the fetus with a doubtious and possible dangerous treatment, to make sure he does not turn into an homosexual????

Down's syndrome is by definition trisomy 21-

no, i was careful with the way i worded it. from the NIH:
Three genetic variations can cause Down syndrome. In most cases, approximately 92% of the time, Down syndrome is caused by the presence of an extra chromosome 21 in all cells of the individual...In approximately 2-4% of cases, Down syndrome is due to mosaic trisomy 21. This situation is similar to simple trisomy 21, but, in this instance, the extra chromosome 21 is present in some, but not all, cells of the individual...In trisomy 21 and mosaic trisomy 21, Down syndrome occurs because some or all of the cells have 47 chromosomes, including three chromosomes 21. However, approximately 3-4% of individuals with Down syndrome have cells containing 46 chromosomes, but still have the features associated with Down syndrome. How can this be? In such cases, material from one chromosome 21 gets stuck or translocated onto another chromosome, either prior to or at conception....

I think if the treatment is dubious and possibly quite dangerous, nobody much will do it. The interest comes if they manage to make it fairly easy and cheap, like an extra ultrasound or something.

Hmm, would insurance cover it?

"Anyway, people tend to want biological grandkids, not adopted ones."

Now who's talking 'real babies'?

I think even if you drop all moral arguments about homosexuality, there's practical reason to suspect that life will never be as easy for homosexuals as for heterosexuals, and depending on the times and the place it may be much much worse.

I'm a conservative who thinks homosexual acts are sinful, etc. etc. but I actually think there's a little something to the "essential"ness argument and so forth in some fashion. If a "cure" for gayness meant the universe was deprived of Proust and Eve Tushnet, I sort of think I'm aginst. But then, maybe alocholism and cognates were essential to Fitzgerald, and the usual nonsense and pontificating that floats around this whole set of questions ensues...

z

Look, I'm not saying adopted kids aren't "real." I'm noticing how people _actually are_. Maybe people shouldn't be like they are, but as far as I can tell this is how they are. Either say they're not, or deal with it, to some extent. Don't pretend a made a moral claim that adopted kids aren't real. I noted what appear to me to be the preferences of lots of people.

People's chances of having grandchildren are still good even if one child is gay. Lots of people have other children, or would have them if the first were gay, and the ones that don't might be satisfied with an adopted or half-donor grandchild (really, what kind of loathsome person wouldn't?). And even if the treatment did work, it wouldn't guarantee grandchildren, it would just bring the likelihood up to the heterosexual level. And just for that small increase in probability, a person would have to spend money and risk all kinds of complications for mother and fetus. And all this in the face of increasing tolerance for gay people. This treatment just wouldn't be worth very much.

Ross writes.

"socially-conservative parents to decide whether their opposition to abortion outweighs their distaste for the idea of gay offspring; you'll just have a regimen of hormone treatments that promises to keep your embryo straight"

Such parents may consider themselves socially -conservative" but they certainly would not be religious or moral in making such a eugenics’ decision.

Even the hormone treatment plan is fraught with ethical considerations. It reminds me of the Norplant controversy of decades past. Most responsible socially conservative parents consider struggle to be an essential part of what it means to be human.


“All the present biological evidence points only toward “heritability” levels of roughly 30 to 35%, which geneticists recognize as the signature for behavioral traits in human beings that are essentially non-genetic and almost completely determined by environmental influences—to the degree that any human trait enmeshed in a body can be”.*

* This statement does not contradict the presence of “indirect genetic factors” influencing homosexuality. Most people mistakenly presume that an indirect genetic influence refers to a mere technical distinction. In fact, the distinction is crucial. Basketball playing shows a very strong, argu ably stronger than homosexuality, indirect genetic influence, but there are no genes for basketball playing —it is a wholly “environmentally” influenced behavior subject to a high degree of choice —much higher than same-sex attraction. The crucial point is that genes that indirectly influence a trait have nothing at all to do with the trait itself and therefore can’t possibly “cause” it. The genes that influence the likelihood someone will become a basketball player are self -evident: Those that code for height, athleticism, muscle refresh rate. There are, at present, even strong racial genetic associations to basketball playing. These associations are almost entirely socially-determined while the genes themselves are biological (and evolved in an era before basketball playing even existed), and the associational degree (i.e., with race) fluctuates over time as basketball spreads across the globe

Hmm...if the premise that straights tend to have more biological offspring than gays is valid, then those who would like to see homosexuality disappear might want to discourage women from using the hormone treatment Ross describes. As described, the treatment would merely suppress the expression of the trait of homosexuality in the offspring of a particular pregnancy. It wouldn't prevent the transmission of the gene. If the differential fertility premise is correct, a woman carrying the gene would be more likely to pass it on to a grandchild if she had the hormone treatment, guaranteeing a straight child, than if she didn't.

Any procedure to correct gayness in utero is likely to be very expensive (the quality controls required pretty much ensure that). And I suspect that neither private insurers nor public health programs will include it as a covered benefit, in part because of the expense, in part because of political controversy, and so it will be treated like gender reassignment surgery, something people have to pay for themselves. As a result only the rich, and the very motivated, will avail themselves of the procedure and society will continue to have no shortage of gays.

Look, I'm gay and very happy with my life and my relationships with my family, and it still seems a no-brainer that the Marquis is right and nearly everyone would push a button that said "make my kid straight" if the risks were low enough. I think they'd even pay a high financial price to do it.

I don't understand this talk of gay parents electing to use the treatment to produce gay children -- I've a feeling that if such a treatment was available, our 'liberal' society would go out of their way to make it a one-way street. The akward scene of fundies bombing fertility clinics would become commonplace -- even though this is as it should be for them, since more viable fetuses are destroyed in a fertility clinic in a week, than are destroyed in an abortion clinic on a monthly basis.

Sorry for the 'Trail of Tears'-style post, its early.

@Fitz: You're comparing apples to oranges, m'friend...noone would argue that the confluence of specific alleles and societal conditioning contributing towards an adept basketball player should not be pigeonholed under some 'good basketball trait.' One could argue that race plays both a nature and nurture role in such an instance, but that's beside the point. Since those genetic factors had a recognizable purpose since the dawn of mankind, i.e. size and speed, it would be ludicrous to believe that it all led up to some lanky fellow throwing a ball through a hoop. In the case of a genetic variation that contributed to homosexuality, there's no other purpose for that gene. If this gene, at different hormone levels, could, say, affect the onset of secondary sexual characteristics, I would see how you could say the indirectly-influcencing gene shouldn't be considered a 'homosexuality gene.' As it is, no explanation of the actual purpose of the 'indirect gene' has been given, so I find it palatable to refer to it as a 'homosexuality gene.'

And with luck maybe they'll also find in in utero treatment for homophobia! That way, socially liberal and conservative parents won't feel a need to alter their children's sexual orientation. And oh - plenty of gay men and women give their parents grandchildren, sometime naturally and sometimes via adoption. (You remember adoption, right? It's how Joseph became the father of Jesus.)

So even if homosexuality turns out to have a genetic basis, which I assume it does, it's perfectly possible to imagine researchers finding a way (as the article puts it) "to regulate hormone flow and direct the baby’s orientation"

No. Your original thoughts were right. The key thing that will be very hard to find a way to do ethically and safely (introducing hormones during pregnancy is just asking for all sorts of trouble) is that "researchers finding a way" bit. It's easy for the layperson to imagine such a thing, but for people who work in pharmaceutical or health care research, such a treatment is self-evidently decades away from the market, and in all likelihood would anyway depend on just the test which would enable the abortion of likely-gay babies.

In general, just because we know what causes something does not mean we are close to a treatment. The perception that just because we've determined the mechanism that we're near a treatment is at the root of a lot of the misunderstanding of the pharmaceutical industry.

Yeesh, there are at least two sterling turds in this post. First, the groaner about how having gay children means not having grandchildren. Second, the notion that socially liberal parents would find it less objectional to use hormones and whatnot to insure straightness, rather than a genetic corrective. They wouldn't, and it's insulting for you to say so.

By the way, you shouldn't use dashes in constructions like "socially liberal."

@mari lup: So your contribution consists of a barely qualified dismissal of someone's notion, followed by a fainting spell over this affront to your delicate sensibilities, with a grammar hag finale? Yay you.

I'm a gay parent, and I'm the first to oppose wrongheaded stereotypes, but honest to God it's not a big stretch to say that having heterosexual kids makes it more likely that you will have grandchildren. All other things being equal, it's just easier for straight people to have children. To become a parent, I had to go through about three years of paperwork, background checks, immigration hassles, and so forth. My straight siblings had to have a couple of wine coolers and an Air Supply album. My gay brother has never tried to have kids, so the straight side of the family is out-performing us 6:1 on grandchildren (my son's cuter than all of their kids, but that's a matter of quality rather than quantity). There is a differential at work here. So as an empirical matter, anyone who wants grandchildren is better off having straight kids.

I think it's less obvious, but still true, that people would prefer to have biological grandchildren. When my spouse and I started talking about having a child, my mom made a big push for surrogacy. She was really worried about whether she would bond with an adopted grandchild, since she had no experience with adoption. Those fears proved to be unfounded, and if anything she's closer to my son than to some of her bio-grandkids, but that's not the point. All else being equal, people will opt for biological offspring (if you doubt that, go check out a fertility clinic where people are spending large amounts of money and taking health risks to produce a child that shares their DNA).

I hope I haven't given the impression I think this is likely anytime soon -- I'm with Andrews. This is amusing to think about in a science fictional way (it could make a great McGuffin for a socio-SF story), but the technology to do it cheaply and safely enough that anybody bothers is probably a pipe dream till, at the least, my kids are having kids.

Which makes Ross' original point more likely -- you might get a pretty cheap diagnostic that could tell you if you had experienced such a hormone wash, and allow for the abortion possibility.

If homosexual orientation is indeed a matter of in utero hormonal differentiation, a treatment would appear to me to be far more simple than a genetic treatment, and possibly present far fewer risks. It's not too unlikely that the situation Ross suggests could come to pass.

@gabriel: Exactly right...I like to know where these folks are procuring their science, that they would think intensive gene therapy is a smaller hurdle than altering hormone levels; the latter has been a common practice for decades, while the former is fantastically hit-or-miss even today.

Visit Family Research Instititute:

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/

*Institute

Male homosexuality is more biological and rigid than female homosexuality, so it would be more susceptible to something like this.

Most people would justify it by blaming the religious right--"Oh, I have no problem with gays personally, I think it can be wonderful for the right person, but there's so much hate and discrimination, I can't make my child go through that."

As a minority, I have experienced hate and discrimination in my life, and I frankly think it has been a bit of a blessing, in spite of its blessed origin, for it has made me who I am now. Frankly, I would be delighted to have a gay son or daughter.

If homosexual orientation is indeed a matter of in utero hormonal differentiation, a treatment would appear to me to be far more simple than a genetic treatment, and possibly present far fewer risks. It's not too unlikely that the situation Ross suggests could come to pass.

Yes, it is. Even if finding the theoretically correct hormones was accomplished relatively quickly, demonstrating the safety and efficacy of such a treatment--particularly on pregnant women--would easily be more than a decade of effort. Quite possibly longer, because the relevant regulatory agencies would likely insist on not just healthy babies being born, but that the treatment produced a measurable reduction in the rates of homosexuality among the treated population. That would require observation until post-adolescence at least (Alternately, it would require the development of an effective in-utero test for homosexuality, but for the test to be known as reliable, at least one study through early adulthood would be required).

Additionally, all it would take is for one group of babies to be born with deformities or developmental oddies, and research on a treatment would be shut down immediately.

This is just not going to happen. Screen and abort will be available relatively soon (most immediately with tests which may indicate a propensity towards homosexuality. In this case, the tests don't even need to be demonstrated as effective, since parents can abort for any reason), and given the availability of abortion, the risk/reward calculation is just wrong for anyone to sink the necessary level of capital into developing an in-utero hormonal treatment for homosexuality.

Exactly right...I like to know where these folks are procuring their science, that they would think intensive gene therapy is a smaller hurdle than altering hormone levels; the latter has been a common practice for decades, while the former is fantastically hit-or-miss even today.

It has less to do with the science and more to do with the regulation of novel medical treatments. My experience with this comes from years working with companies which develop and bring to market novel drugs and medical treatments.

You're certainly correct that the science is easier in case of a hormonal treatment--the regulatory hurdles are, however, unchanged. And because this involves pregnant women, they are even higher than they would be for other treatments.

Get the Facts:

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=BK04A01

(Getting it Straight: What the Research Shows about Homosexuality, Family Research Council)

Re: Getting it Straight: What the Research Shows about Homosexuality, Family Research Council

Oh good grief. Going to the Family Research Council for info about homosexuality is like consulting a "History of Capitalism" written by Vladimir Ilych Lenin.

Visit Family Research Instiute online:

www.familyresearchinst.org

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To anyone who would reject a gay child:

If you can't find love in your heart for a gay son, I doubt there's much more love for a straight one. Don't bother raising a child into your torment-filled world at all. You don't deserve the blessing.

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