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Whistling Past Dixie

21 Jun 2007 11:32 pm

I like Alex Massie and Daniel Larison's contributions to the whole "does the South hold American politics hostage" debate that Paul Waldman and Kevin Drum kicked off, largely because - as you might expect - I didn't find the original complaint particularly persuasive. Drum's suggestion that "most Southerners just flatly refuse to vote for anyone who comes from north of the Mason-Dixon Line" is a particularly self-defeating form of liberal condescension: It's the same line of identity-politics thinking that convinced certain Democrats that the way to win over the hawkish rubes out in the heartland was to nominate a veteran for President in '04, and have a lot of veterans at their convention, and talk a lot about "reporting for duty." Of course Southerners are somewhat more likely to vote for Southerners than non-Southerners, everything else being equal, and maybe they're somewhat more likely to vote for one of their own than a Californian or a New England Yankee would be. (It wouldn't be surprising if a region that's considerably more culturally particularist than the rest of America cared more about, well, cultural particularism in assessing Presidential candidates than the rest of the country does.) And sure, Waldman's probably right that John Edwards "can go to places where Clinton, and to an extent Obama, can't." But not that many places. Remember that Edwards ran for President in '04 in part because he was probably going to lose his N.C. Senate seat anyway, and he didn't do Kerry any good in the Carolinas in the general election. Indeed, you could argue that he owes his current prominence almost entirely to liberal identity politics: Had he hailed from Oregon, say, instead of tobacco country, there's little chance that Kerry would have picked him as a running mate in '04, and even less chance that he'd be considered one of the "big three" Democratic contenders this time around.

"Most Southerners just flatly refuse to vote for anyone who comes from north of the Mason-Dixon Line." Sure. Except that Southerners voted for Ronald Reagan over the Georgian Jimmy Carter; outside of the Border South, they voted for Bob Dole, a Kansan, over the Arkansas Bill Clinton; and I'm willing to bet they'd vote for Romney or McCain or even Giuliani, Noo Yawker though he is, over the drawling, folksy, down-home Edwards. To the extent that they hold American politics hostage, they do it the old-fashioned way - by voting for the candidates who share their views and values, and against the ones who don't.

It is the case, I think, that the South - perhaps for the same reason it produces better literature - produces more appealing politicians than other regions of the country, and as a result finds itself overrepresented on the national stage. If you were drawing up an ideal Republican candidate for President, for instance, he'd look like Tommy Thompson: The successful, Catholic governor of a Midwestern swing state. But Tommy Thompson is charmless and clumsy and going nowhere, whereas the far less accomplished Fred Thompson is smoother than smooth and rising to the top of the polls - and his Southern-ness, and poor Tommy Thompson's lack thereof, has at least something to do with it.

But it isn't Dixie's fault that her sons and daughters are just flat-out more charming than the rest of America. Don't hate the player ...

Comments (33)

"Remember that Edwards ran for President in '04 in part because he was probably going to lose his N.C. Senate seat anyway"

That's dubious. Erskine Bowles lost a tight race to Richard Burr in 2004 (52-47). If Edwards had concentrated on retaining his seat and not run for president, he would have had the advantages both of incumbency and the formation of a 1-2 Democratic punch with the governor, Mike Easley, who won re-election that year by over 13 points.

You also wrote, "To the extent that they hold American politics hostage, they do it the old-fashioned way - by voting for the candidates who share their views and values, and against the ones who don't."

This ignores the significant effort made by conservatives, both from the South and from outside it, to claim the South as the home of the authentic Americans. As Tom Wolfe said of those out-of-touch souls who are not fortunate enough to have been born or raised in a red state, "They literally do not set foot in the United States. We live in New York in one of the two parenthesis states. They're usually called blue states--they're not blue states, the states on the coast. They're parenthesis states--the entire country lives in between." That little gem comes from Jonathan Chait's piece on red state snobbery from some time back.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060403&s=diarist040306

By the way, there's a line in I Am Charlotte Simmons where Wolfe even dismisses people in the South who live in bigger cities like Charlotte or Raleigh. Apparently you not only have to be from the South to count as authentically American in Wolfe's eyes, but a part of the South sufficiently rural to produce such doe-eyed maidens of virtue like Ms. Simmons.

I lived in NC as Edwards stepped onto the national scene. He was a joke even in 98, when he barely beat a vunerable Republican, Faircloth, in a Democratic year. And he did it by running hard to the middle, loudly disowning the label liberal. He could get away with it because he had no record whatsoever.

He was going down in flames in 04 had he run. Burr was a good candidate, all others stepped aside, and NC wasn't contested at the national level.

A lot of this, I suspect, is a burbling response to claims made by Democrats who are Southern partisans. You cannot shake a stick without hitting an Edwards supporter who is telling Democrats, loudly and incessantly, that Edwards is the most electable candidate because he hails from the South. Others insist that Democrats must win the South to win the Presidency, and, sotto voce, therefore Democrats must supplicate the South.

And yet, we cannot help noticing that the last six years of misrule happened on a Southern watch. We cannot help noticing that an electoral majority of Southerners seem to hate us; certainly an Arbitron majority do. We cannot help noticing that, with, admittedly, the help of a largely Northern media, the South--a region that, while not steeped in treason, was brewed from it--continually asserts the right to define "American." We cannot help noticing that their majority's values are not our values. And some of us cannot help wanting to build a coalition that allows us to put up a candidate that reflects our values, and that doesn't have to supp the South. And so you get little drips and drabs of attempts to distinguish the Democratic project from a project to win affection from the South.

(We also cannot help noticing how many Southern Conservative apologists seem to work and live in blue areas. Curious, that.)

"We also cannot help noticing how many Southern Conservative apologists seem to work and live in blue areas. Curious, that."

Yes, this is critical. And no, inside the Beltway isn't Southern, despite what the Founders may have thought.

I spent most of my first 25 years in the Deep South, seeing the racism, and love of violence, that remains an important part of Southern life. The Republican party continues to play this part of Southern life up. You blue state Southern Conservative apologists are apologists for this aspect of Southern life, because it helps you win elections. But it doesn't help us make a better life where we live. It is like a company with a factory that pollutes a river; the owners live far away and don't care. We are just something they use and destroy.

Is this a Christian thing to do, Ross?

"You blue state Southern Conservative apologists are apologists for this aspect of Southern life, because it helps you win elections."

Yes, Ross, Alex Massie and I are all deeply enmeshed in the GOP establishment and we turn a blind eye to all these things out of sheer partisan advantage. Karl Rove has nothing on us. To make this believable it would help if I were a Republican, but that's the really clever part of the conspiracy.

Ok - provoke away - "better literature"??? The South certainly has its fair share of literary greats but I think with Melville, Poe, Thoreau, Hawthorne, Crane, Morrison, Delillo, Pynchon and others the North can at least hold its own.

Does this distinctive "cultural particularism" have anything to with race?

see:

http://ppq.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/11/1/5

As SCMTim points out, all this is set off by Edwards' claim that he'd have a better chance of winning in the South than a New Yorker or Illinoisan.

Massie and Larison don't address that issue; Ross says that it's true.

I was ready to be persuaded by Massie and Larison, but there isn't much there there. Massie talks about architecture and countertops and how he doesn't like the New York Times' snobby blue-state elitism.

Larison writes, "Southerners used to vote for Northern Democratic nominees as recently as 1960, back when the Democratic Party actually saw fit to represent the interests of Southern Democrats."

Gee, how did they do that?

Larison then goes on to note that pre-LBJ, there were few Southern presidents. Well, ok, but that doesn't rebut what Drum and Waldman say about the past 40 years of American politics.

And "better literature"?!? Look, I have no desire to take down O'Connor and Faulkner, but berger's list gets at the jingoistic implausibility of that claim.

Southern Dems tend to be more conservative than Northern or Calif Dems - obviously. and because every presidential election is more or less a game of capture the center - a game that Southern Dems, because they're closer to the center from the beginning, tend to be better at than Northern or Calif ones - Southern Dems tend to do better than their peers. Not just in the South, but in Ohio and Colorado too.

For this reason, I think Edwards' claim is off. Like Gore in 2000, he's moved to the left of the general sentiments of Dems in the region.

also, this is a side note, but the old bit about everything in the South owing to mean old bigots is outdated and stupid. Georgia's AG is black, several black congressmen from the region represent white majority districts - it's not 1957 anymore.

Though right out in the open, the South remains a cherished secret to those who truly know her.

The warmth of the sun and the citizenry, the slow-cooked summers and the three-snow winters, the low misty mountains, rolling hills, and lazy rivers, the cost of living -- life in the South conditions optimism, and Southerners respond viscerally to those who have it.

What we don't respond to are gloom-and-doomers, hard-nosed pragmatists, and tragic realists -- for a very simple reason. Life in the South doesn't cultivate those perspectives, so we have no affinity for them.

also, this is a side note, but the old bit about everything in the South owing to mean old bigots is outdated and stupid. Georgia's AG is black, several black congressmen from the region represent white majority districts - it's not 1957 anymore.

Sure it is

Er, why the perceived need for "charming" candidates? Always helps, but it's worth wondering why it's such a requirement among those for whom it is one. Are there regional differences in criteria for voting decisions? Candidates with opposite philosophies, after all, can be charming, but they can't both be right in their basic views.

The truth is that the 'true' South has become GOP country (and I’m talking nationally – I don’t care how many Dems are elected as governors or state legislators). I don't buy the line that they will not vote for someone north of the Mason-Dixie. The majority of Southerners will vote for the Republican Presidential candidate even if candidate is a sock puppet. Majority of Southerners are cultural conservatives and they either hate or distrust generic liberals. The GOP electoral machine has installed the fear in their hearts that the national Dems are a bunch of pinko liberal pussies. It will take another couple of decades before the South comes into play for a Democratic presidential candidate.

Willie, did you even read the article you linked to? it does not say what you apparently think it says.

never mind. persist in thinking that everyone b/w DC and NM is a bigot.

Willie, did you even read the article you linked to? it does not say what you apparently think it says.

What the hell? Yes it does.

i found the comments about southern violence and ignorance hilarious after living in the open cess pit known as 'new york city'- a place even up state new yorkers hope will subside into the east river.
as to southern presidents prior to crooked old lbj, you may wish to review the founding president. he was the greatist of all.
we tend to vote for those we hope will press for rights and government to which we agree. hence, poor old lefties need not apply. we just don t believe in socialism. steeped in rebellion? would that include the new england yankees who wanted aaron burr to lead them in secession? or the little state up there now who espouses secession? or would that refer to our ability to read the constitution and understand the part that discusses how power flows from the people, to the state, to the federal government?
the 'parenthesis' states should be so lucky to have a people to whom the constitution and individual rights and resposibilities mean so much.

BP - fine, I'll cut and paste.

"Leading opponents, such as Alabama Christian Coalition President John Giles, said they did not object to removing the passage about separate schools for "white and colored children.""

Article also notes that Ala voters recently eliminated a provision barring interracial marriage. But maybe those bigots were just too dumb to know they were doing that.

I'm not arguing theere are nor racists in the South - of course there are. But the notion that race alone drives everything is false.

chris,

Are you kidding? I can cut and paste too:

Giles and others said guaranteeing a right to a public education would have opened a door for "rogue" federal judges to order the state to raise taxes to pay for improvements in its public school system.

This argument is so unfathomably idiotic that I can't believe Giles means it. But even if he does, we're left with the fact that half the population of the state did not vote to remove openly segregationist language from their constitution.

Charming!

BP, the same people deep sixed language barring interracial marriage.

and people who led the charge vs this latest change said they were fine with changing the offensive part of it. maybe they are lying - who knows. but it's easy enough to put to the test by stripping any future amendment down to that essence.

as for idiotic arguments, I think it's a stretch too, but federal judges have imposed taxes to pay for public schools - google Kansas City and federal court desegregation if you want details.

more to the point, offering the failure of an amendment in one state 5 years ago to claim the South as a whole is now stuck in 1957 is absurd.

Poe was Southern. He was born in Massachusetts but raised in Virginia.

Jimmy Carter did loose the south in 1980, but he lost pretty much everywhere. That Reagan's margins were all very, very thin almost everywhere in the south in a year that he won by 10 points nationally would seem to support the theory rather than disprove it.

What we [the South] don't respond to are gloom-and-doomers, hard-nosed pragmatists, and tragic realists -- for a very simple reason. Life in the South doesn't cultivate those perspectives, so we have no affinity for them.

This strains credulity...how, then, would you explain why you voted for a Prez who's main plank was 'vote for us, those other guys won't protect you?'

Drum's statement, as written, is silly.

However, if he had said most Southerners just flatly refuse to vote for a Democrat who comes from north of the Mason-Dixon Line," I think this would be a perfectly accurate statement. Or at least it has been consistently accurate since 1965 or so.

George W. Bush managed to narrowly win a couple of elections as a Southern Republican, despite winning a grand total of 4 electoral votes from the Northeast and none from the West coast. So it may be that the reverse is true, as well.

It's been fairly obvious, since about 1796, that the Deep South and New England are culturally very different, tend to prefer very different types of leadership, and tend to deeply resent the people from the other region. They'll each vote for outsiders, but only if the candidate in question transcends regional stereotypes in substantive ways. The problem, from a Democrat's perspective, is that the South is far larger and more politically powerful than New England.

"I lived in NC as Edwards stepped onto the national scene. He was a joke even in 98, when he barely beat a vunerable Republican, Faircloth, in a Democratic year."

I lived in North Carolina in 2004 as well (and I still do), and I'll grant that Edwards was facing some strong criticism at home that year. But if the owlish Erskine Bowles, who was a fresh loser from his 2002 race with Dole, could nearly beat Burr, it seems a stretch to think that as an incumbent Edwards wouldn't have at least been the favorite going into a matchup with Burr had he chosen to focus on keeping his senate seat.

But it isn't Dixie's fault that her sons and daughters are just flat-out more charming than the rest of America. Don't hate the player ...

Yes, the better of the Dixie folk have retained a certain charm that no other part of the nation can claim, though by and large the matter of depth is another question- that would include Jefferson compared to Adams or Faulkner to T.S. Eliot.

Posted by John Aristides | June 22, 2007 9:47 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with his entire comment.

Those of you who insist the South is full of racists quite obviously do not know any Southerners, nor have you apparently spent any time here. It's this silly narrow-minded, condescending, "F*** the South" view that makes Southerners hold the opinions some of us do about so-called "progressives."

Regarding that Alabama vote: I certainly don't remember voting for something so simple as a "vote to remove openly segregationist language from their constitution.," but you see, it wasn't as it's been characterized by BP and others at all. But I suppose when that's what fits your prejudices about the RAAAACIST! South, a quick one-off sound bite will do.

I must say, though: please do continue thinking what you want about the South. It's a free country, and besides, as long as the South disgusts you, you'll leave the South to be inhabited by free-thinking, well-mannered, pleasant people. And we'll continue to not vote for candidates (no matter where they call home) that espouse your points of view. It's that simple.

Cheers!

Re: but federal judges have imposed taxes to pay for public schools

Federal judges? Or state judges? The only cases I've heard about have involved state judges and their rulings were based on very clear language in their state constitutions requiring equitable funding of the schools.

Federal judges? Or state judges? The only cases I've heard about have involved state judges and their rulings were based on very clear language in their state constitutions requiring equitable funding of the schools.

IIRC, the federal judge in question seized control of either the Kansas City or St.Louis school system, and forced tax increases to implement his grand plan.

I doubt there is clear language in the New Jersey state constitution permitting the appellate judiciary to impose a state income tax, but that is what elected officials permitted them to do.

Re: I doubt there is clear language in the New Jersey state constitution permitting the appellate judiciary to impose a state income tax, but that is what elected officials permitted them to do.

How does a court impose an income tax? Or any other kind of tax? It has no ability to draft legislation. Now if you tell me that court required the legislature to enact an income tax, that would be a bit more believable. And if a stateconstitution clearly states "public schools shall be establsihed and maintained in an equitable manner" what should a court do if the state fails to abide its own constitution? Perhaps we should be like the old Soviet Union which had lots of high and mighty language in its constitution about human rights but paid not one iota of attention to any to it.

Now if you tell me that court required the legislature to enact an income tax, that would be a bit more believable.

The judicial decree in question was issued, as I recall, about 25 years ago, and consisted of just that. Why the New Jersey legislature allowed itself to be turned into a passive instrument of judicial will, I do not know. It would be agreeable if legislatures and executives would play hardball("what appropriations for the coming fiscal year, Mr. Justice? Oh, by the way, this subpoena indicates you are due before the Assembly Finance Committee tomorrow afternoon") with appellate judges who go into business for themselves (as they do routinely nowadays), but such almost never happens in this country, and the vigor of democratic institutions and the integrity of public discourse have suffered as a result.

What in the legislative history of the provision in question which compels a conclusion that 'equitable' means 'precisely equal funding', much less achieved by cross-subsidies financed out of the state treasury, much less out of revenues gleaned from an income tax?

The notion that members of the appellate judiciary are, as a class, exquisitely concerned with integrity and rigor in the interpretation of constitutional provisions can no longer pass the laugh test in this country.

More literature on the South, Race, and voting patterns:

www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-5907.2005.00136.x

This time with the link.

More literature on the South, Race, and voting patterns:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-5907.2005.00136.x

Also, here is a TNR article explaining the content for those of you without access to the journal.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w061127&s=perlstein112906

Ok - provoke away - "better literature"??? The South certainly has its fair share of literary greats but I think with Melville, Poe, Thoreau, Hawthorne, Crane, Morrison, Delillo, Pynchon and others the North can at least hold its own.

You left out Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, John Steinbeck, Kurt Vonnegut, Washington Irving, J.D. Salinger, Henry James, Jack Kerouac, Sinclair Lewis, Norman Mailer, Edith Wharton, Upton Sinclair and Joyce Carol Oates. What's more, the North has a convincing claim to the poetry title, with Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson, Allen Ginsberg, Sylvia Plath, Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot.

(That said, the literary front is actually one of the potential bright spots for a "South vs. Rest of America" peace treaty. The top-most American authors, the very best of the best, are actually inter-regional. Mark Twain, born a southerner, migrated north and went native. Edgar Allan Poe did the same thing, but in reverse.)