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I'm Telling You For the Last Time

15 Jul 2007 08:57 pm

The first comment on my last post reads:

(It just tends to fall on inner-city children rather than upper-middle class twentysomething newlyweds.)

...which is entirely the fault of conservatives like yourself who work tirelessly to restrict sex ed, contraception and ban abortion, all of which exist to ameliorate the complications that come from sex. But of course, being a conservative means never having to be responsible for the actual real-world consequences of your opinions.

I've said this before, but one more time: There is very little evidence that sex ed programs have more than a minimal impact on teen and twentysomething sexual behavior. As with most trends, the effects of peer interactions, popular culture, socioeconomic background, parental values and a host of other variables swamp, and then some, what happens in public schools. (Which is why the war over sex ed, at least in public policy terms, is mainly sound and fury, signifying little.)

As for abortion, it's doubtless true that we could bring the out-of-wedlock birth rate down somewhat if we opened more abortion clinics in inner-city neighborhoods and dirt-poor rural counties, which is why to a certain extent the debate over the Sexual Revolution often does come down to what you think about the desirability of raising the abortion rate. However, there are 1.3 million (or so) abortions annually in the United States already, one of the highest rates in the Western world, and as of 2000-2001 some 57 percent of those abortions were obtained by women making less than 200 percent of the poverty line. So it's not clear that there are all that many "gains" to be made, in terms of reducing illegitimacy among the poor, by making abortion more readily available. Particularly since it isn't clear that most illegitimate births in the United States are "unwanted" births to begin with. The teen birth rate, a decent proxy for accidental pregnancy, has been falling for years, while the out-of-wedlock birth rate has rising steadily among women in normal childbearing years. Most of these births aren't to women who are too ignorant to use contraception and just keep pumping out children until they hit menopause; they're to women who want a normal family life, with, say, 2-3 kids, but who can't find any men to marry them, because the culture of marriage has collapsed around them. This is decidedly true in poor and working-class black America, and it's increasingly true in poor and working-class white America as well; in neither case is the overall birth rate particularly high, suggesting that making "every child a wanted child," as the old slogan goes, won't put much of a dent in the illegitimacy problem.

In other words, you either need to deny that rising out-of-wedlock birth rates are bad for society (which you can do, but not very persuasively), accept the social-conservative argument that the Sexual Revolution went too far in snapping the bond between sex, marriage, and childbearing, or find a way to make Americans cultivate the kind of self-control on display in, say, Sweden, a society that has largely dispensed with the institution of marriage but still manages to rear the vast majority of its children in two-parent homes. (Though of course some might say that Northern Europeans have a little too much self-control where childbearing is concerned ... ) The Americans-into-Swedes project is, so far as I can tell, the principle liberal response to the Sexual Revolution's negative externalities, and it's an intellectually respectable one, but I think there's enough data in by now to demonstrate that it'll take more than better sex ed and more abortion clinics to make it happen.

Comments (53)

There's a lot to think about there, but one thing that immediately jumps out is the 70 percent illegitimacy rate among African-Americans. That this is the primary cause of many of that community's ills should be indisputable and hugely obvious, even as it's hardly discussed in public debate.

The Americans-into-Swedes project is, so far as I can tell, the principle liberal response to the Sexual Revolution's negative externalities,

But what is the principal conservative response to the decades-old sexual revolution? To get us to use "illegitimate" when refering to children of single parents? If you want to outlaw abortion, contraception, and divorce then stop being such a pussy and come out and say so.

jenny

Re: There is very little evidence that sex ed programs have more than a minimal impact on teen and twentysomething sexual behavior.

Yes, yes. Teenagers don't much listen to preachy adults when there's fun to be had. That includes social conservative preaching too, by the way: abstinence only programs have no better evidence of success. But no one stays a teenager forever. Eventually they reach the age of reason (25?) and then those lessons are remembered and may become the foundation for responsible living. So I found it growing up, and I'm not the first person who thought his father was a killjoy fuddy-duddy when I was 17 and now, at 40 (and well before then) look back on him as an uncommonly sage and sensible influence on my life.
By the way my dad, who had some issues with the English language, had this to about sex: "If you're gonna fool around alawys wear a conundrum." I used to laugh about that spoonerism, and still do or I would not have told it here, but for a gay kid growing up in the 80s (even though Dad did not quite realize the gay part) it was literally life-saving advice.

Regarding sex education, there's every reason to think that while it isn't very good at affecting behaviour, it has had a substantial impact on attitudes- which is to say, it has reinforced the mores of the sexual revolution.

What Ross forgets is that it is the hated Taxachusetts that boasts the best numbers with regard to marriage and divorce in the country. You don't exactly get elected in Massachusetts arguing abortion is immoral and should be restricted. Meanwhile, the socially conservative South, where complaints about the Sexual Revolution can get people elected to the governor's mansion, boasts higher rates of abortion and divorce. Southerners also tend to get married younger than people in Massachusetts and Connecticut, which is believed to be a major reason for the South's higher divorce rates. In addition, if like me you are agnostic on the idea that abortions are fundamentally immoral (divorced from the question of whether or not the state should be involved in controlling such behavior), then leading off your argument complaining that the abortion rate is too high just screams of preaching to the converted. You know what prevents unwanted pregnancy? Condoms. Considering how high the STD rates are for teens who sign abstinence pledges are, maybe making sure good Christian boys and girls know how to use a condom before they start making decisions like a hormone-driven 16 year-old-boys-and-girls and end up pregnant.

I forgot to mention that part of what drives the young average age for marriage for Southerners tend to be religious values against pre-marital sex, which leads to 19-year-olds to convince lust for undying love so that they can finally get laid. Also, where is the room in Ross's analysis for gays and lesbians? The last time I checked, a gay couple in Alabama can't get married, so all of their sex is pre-marital sex and they can't get pregnant, so unless they adopt, such sex is divorced also from childbearing/rearing.

In other words, you either need to deny that rising out-of-wedlock birth rates are bad for society (which you can do, but not very persuasively), accept the social-conservative argument that the Sexual Revolution went too far in snapping the bond between sex, marriage, and childbearing, or find a way to make Americans cultivate the kind of self-control on display in, say, Sweden, a society that has largely dispensed with the institution of marriage but still manages to rear the vast majority of its children in two-parent homes.

There's a third possibility - come up with different institutional supports, so that children with one full parent can still be raised effectively. There's nothing magic about the number two that makes it ideal for child-raising - the nuclear family as currently practiced (concieved?) is a pretty recent invention - just that, all things being equal, it's a lot more manageable than one.

The space of possible institutions that could fill that role - a return to the extended family, public creches, an invented family relation of tax-supported volunteer "aunts" and "uncles," everyone getting raised by Guardian caste and henceforth assigned to their optimal role in the Republic - is vast, though the set of politically possible ones is obviously smaller.

The space of possible institutions that could fill that role - a return to the extended family, public creches, an invented family relation of tax-supported volunteer "aunts" and "uncles," everyone getting raised by Guardian caste and henceforth assigned to their optimal role in the Republic - is vast, though the set of politically possible ones is obviously smaller.

And the suspicion of conservatives that social liberalism tends towards totalitarianism is reinforced once more.

Regarding the extended family, Matthias may be interested to learn that a substantial portion of inner-city black children are raised by their grandparents. The extended family has come back, but it has come back because the immediate family is often not there- which suggests it is hardly an ideal circumstance.

And the suspicion of conservatives that social liberalism tends towards totalitarianism is reinforced once more.

Regarding sex, at least, I bet that your policy preferences tend more toward totalitarianism than most social liberals. Though I doubt I could get you to actually state your policy preferences.

jenny

Though I doubt I could get you to actually state your policy preferences.

Firstly, legal restrictions are not the same as totalitarianism. Public creches and a "Guardian caste" are pretty redolent of totalitarianism.

My policy preferences: a constitutional recognition of personhood at conception, which of course would mean that abortion would not be permitted, nor at least some fertility treatments. Also restrictions on the use of abortifacient birth-control methods.

Re: Regarding sex education, there's every reason to think that while it isn't very good at affecting behaviour, it has had a substantial impact on attitudes- which is to say, it has reinforced the mores of the sexual revolution.

Oh, yes, the old "If no one ever talked about sex teenagers would know nothing about it". Good grief. Were you ever 16? Is that the way it worked for you? I suppose if we never talked about wearing seat belts teenagers would all drive like their grandmothers and their acident rate would plummet.

Oh, yes, the old "If no one ever talked about sex teenagers would know nothing about it".

No one is claiming that. Seeking refuge in such a tendentious reductionalization only serves to reveal how thin your argument is.

Do you know anything about social expectations and the impact of culture? The irony is, that your ignorance of cultural effects combined with your accurate claim that teenagers are going to know the basics anyway would suggest that sex ed's advocacy of condoms is entirely unnecessary.

Ross writes that the only available arguments are that (1) everything's fine, (2) we must go back to the way things were in 1950, or (3) kiss marriage goodbye.

Y'know, there were some negative results that could be attributed to the Industrial Revolution, too, such as pollution and non-fun factory conditions. But it would have been a mistake to conclude, in 1900, that it "went too far" and that the Luddites had it right, or that the separation of families each day or for longer periods as people went to factories meant that families would cease to exist.

Absolutist arguments are quite emotionally satisfying to make, but they tend not to be particularly accurate.

The 70% rate of out of wedlock births among African Americans is a catastrophe. If sex ed can't be shown to be effective, then it shouldn't be part of the policy response. Expanding knowledge abut and access to contraception would help, but in the end, it will probably require more of a bully pulpit approach than a series of programs.

I'd agree to go 'back to the 50's' if that comes with unionized manufacturing jobs that let high school drop-outs raise families of four.

To be fair, I assume 'back to the '50s' is not what Ross has in mind...

because the culture of marriage has collapsed around them

for which there is plenty of blame to spread around, like:

1. the collapse of quality lower class inner-city employment (see Flint or, for that matter, large chunks of LA County, where many of the defense-related factories have closed);

2. an utterly insane drug policy coupled with an utterly insane incarceration policy, leading to a distinct lack of desirable men because they're in or have been in prison;

3. the growth of a fiercely proud anti-establishment culture which pushed its way into mainstream society;

4. the collapse of many schools as institutions of learning, becoming warehouses instead; etc.

let's see. I can blame 1 on globalization, 2 on the Right, 3 on nobody and 4 on the Left.

How 'bout calling it even, admitting that many inner cities contain conditions which demonstrate a terrible collapse of the Social Contract, and respecting those (I'm very impressed by Green Dot Charter Schools, and somewhat impressed by John Edwards trying to make a campaign about it) trying to make a difference?

(forcing kids to carry pregnancies to term is, I can guarantee, NOT a useful approach.)

However, there are 1.3 million (or so) abortions annually in the United States already, one of the highest rates in the Western world, and as of 2000-2001 some 57 percent of those abortions were obtained by women making less than 200 percent of the poverty line. So it's not clear that there are all that many "gains" to be made, in terms of reducing illegitimacy among the poor, by making abortion more readily available.

A fair point. An equally fair point is that there would be tremendous LOSSES on this front by severely restricting access to abortion.

I strongly suspect that the greatly improved access to "morning after" birth control will have a measurable effect on both the abortion rate and the rate of births to unwed mothers over the next 5-10 years. We'll see.

Ross,
It's good to see you responding directly to comments.

Comprehensive sex ed is valuable because it enables teenagers to make more informed decisions; whether they in fact listen is, as you suggest, another question entirely. But this information certainly helps individuals, which makes it important even if it doesn't serve other ambitious policy goals.

My wording is somewhat confusing above; I should have said "how frequently they in fact listen is, as you suggest, another question entirely."

Re: Do you know anything about social expectations and the impact of culture?

Of course I do. But teenagers are famous for rebelling against the cultural norms of their elders, and for blowing off adult preaching as I mentioned above. That includes liberal preaching about condoms and also conservative preaching about chastity. What's more this has always been true; it didn't start with the 60s. True, if you go back far enough in history you'll find a social regime where the virtues of "good" girls was protected, though not by cultural norms, but rather by the very active chaperognage of their elders. That left the young men to seek sexual pleasure elsewhere, generally from prostitutes or perhaps from a number of "bad" girls whose parents did not bother to keep them isolated or, being poor, might actually have hoped to have a daughter attract a rich boy's attention and perhaps become grandparents to his love-child. And of course where people kept servants (or slaves or going really far back serfs) those women were generally available for their masters' pleasures. But back to the present. I really see no alternative to adult preaching (about virtue and condoms both, the messages are complementary, after all, just as messages about wearing seatbelts and not driving drunk do not conflict). A few kids may even listen and benefit. And in the long run those kids do grow up and eventually the adult messages sink in and bear fruit. "Responsible teenager" may be an oxymoron or nearly so, but that doesn't mean we should give up on preparing them to become responsible adults.

Re: I can blame 1 on globalization, 2 on the Right, 3 on nobody and 4 on the Left.

A bit oversimplified I think. Factory employment began to decline well before NAFTA and GATT. The big culprit has been automation, not low-wage foreigners. One worker today can do what ten had to do fifty years ago. The Right and Left have both played a role in the Drug War, though the "lock'em up and throw away the key" mentality is probably more the doing of the Right. The mess in many of our schools is due to both the collapse of adequete funding as communities have grown much more income-homogenous, and also of pressure from deamgogues both Right and Left seeking to have their pet causes enshrined as schoolhouse dogma.

Gabriel, the Republic reference was very obviously a joke to illustrate how the space of possible institutions was much larger than the space of desirable or politically possible ones. If you think it was my serious Liberal Policy Suggestion, you are willfully misreading.

Laying aside the Guardians (which, shamefully, I didn't pick up on- mea culpa, mea culpa), there does remain a hint of totalitarianism, which I think is most usefully defined as the ability and desire of a government to control the mind and convictions of the citizenry. Such public creches and government parental substitutes places too much power regarding the formation of children to be looked upon with equanimity.

Re: In other words, you either need to deny that rising out-of-wedlock birth rates are bad for society (which you can do, but not very persuasively), accept the social-conservative argument that the Sexual Revolution went too far in snapping the bond between sex, marriage, and childbearing, or find a way to make Americans cultivate the kind of self-control on display in, say, Sweden, a society that has largely dispensed with the institution of marriage but still manages to rear the vast majority of its children in two-parent homes. (Though of course some might say that Northern Europeans have a little too much self-control where childbearing is concerned ... )


Can I choose all three responses? As a social 'moderate' I think each one has a little bit of truth to it.

Out-of-wedlock pregnancy is certainly a less than ideal thing in general and a particularly negative feature in modern America. But you could imagine a society where the bad results of out-of-wedlock pregnancy were greatly lessened, by having alternate arrangements for the raising of children. In a bunch of societies ranging from tribal societies in New Guinea, to Israeli kibbutzes in the 1960s, to socialist Cuba, the raising of children was considered the obligation of the whole community; I'm not aware that any of these societies, for all their other problems, produced singularly maladjusted children. You might or might not consider such arrangements 'totalitarian', and you don't need to accept them as possible alternatives, but they have certainly worked at several points in history (and were also, of course, endorsed by Plato).
Furthermore, as a political socialist, I have other reasons for thinking that while the State should not replace the family as the agent of caring for children, it should supplement them. Plenty of parents of all classes, races and ideologies inculcate negative values in their children including laziness, criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, violence, greed, sexism, and racism. I don't think that their children should be taken away from them, but should the State not at least be able to try and counteract these influences with some efforts of its own?

As a somewhat heterodox Christian, I think that sex should be reserved for long-term, loving and committed relationships, in which it is an expression of the love between the man and woman. Marriage is of course the ideal form of such relationships, but I don't think that marriage is the only form where this kind of love and self-giving commitment can exist. We all know that a lot of marriages, historically and today, have been about property, personal advancement, and plenty of things other than true love. I don't think that a certificate from the state necessarily makes a sexual relationship any more legitimate; if it's between loving and committed partners it is so already. To my mind the true link that we should be trying to restore is between sex, love, and commitment, not necessarily between sex and marriage. I would say that I don't think people should be sleeping with each other casually, promiscuously, or in short-term relationships, nor when either partner is uner 18, and I think that we should teach those values in the schools (along with also teaching a bit about the Pill, and other methods of both natural and artificial family planning). So yes, I do think that the sexual revolution went too far, but that doesn't mean I don't think it was a good idea in its original, more moderate stages.

I know no one here has suggested returning to Victorian era sexual morality, but let's also not forget the dark side of that era. Leaving aside the economic injustices and moral corruption of 19th century capitalism, just on the matter of sexual values, the late 19th century in Europe and America was characterized by pervasive prostitution. The commodification and sale of sex on a large scale is certainly at least an equal abuse and contravention of proper sexuality to what we have in America today. Of course, I don't think we have to choose, but if we did, then I don't think that more prostitutes on the one hand for more wedding-night virgins on the other is an acceptible tradeoff, at all.

M. Dauphin-Gloire: was prostitution more pervasive in Victorian times than it is today? Are there reliable figures available on this point?

JonF:

true I was grossly oversimplifying. But the larger point is that this:

either need to deny that rising out-of-wedlock birth rates are bad for society (which you can do, but not very persuasively), accept the social-conservative argument that the Sexual Revolution went too far in snapping the bond between sex, marriage, and childbearing, or find a way to make Americans cultivate the kind of self-control on display in, say, Sweden

was itself grossly oversimplified. Yes, there's a lot wrong with inner city Los Angeles. But I do NOT accept the social conservative argument that the SexRev is (only) to blame. There's a lot more going on, including a lack of decent paying jobs, a culture in which incarceration is not just acceptable but a right of passage, and wretched schools.

I am not convinced that Ross has established that increasing access to abortion won't allow more poor and middle-class people to terminate their pregnancies rather than bringing children into the world that they aren't ready to care for. All he has shown is that a lot of people already do it.

In fact, in many rural parts of the country, you simply can't get an abortion-- the nearest provider is hundreds of miles away. And to the very poor, several hundred dollars to pay for an abortion IS hard to come by.

Finally, how about the stigma on abortion? How about dealing protesters at the clinics? How about all those right wing Christians calling you a murderer for doing it?

If we lived in a society where abortion was portrayed as an honorable choice not to bring a child into the world when you are not ready (which is exactly what it is), maybe more people would avail themselves of it.

I would also note that Ross' advocacy of natalism isn't a constructive thing in this debate. After all, it is precisely that "every child is a blessing" mentality that causes people to be not careful enough with contraception and unwilling to have abortions.

So what do you advocate, Ross? (Mr. Douthat?) You can't put the genie back in the bottle. There are conservative wins, and conservative losses; there are liberal wins, and liberal losses; but the idea that you are going to roll back sexual mores to "the good old days" is absurd. Whatever the religious makeup of this country it is clear that the old restrictions on sexual conduct simply don't apply anymore. So what can we do, moving forward? We can give the tools necessary to our young people to have sex safely, even if they don't take advantage of those tools. And we can stop erecting idiotic barriers to adult sex that are appeals to antiquated notions of morality.

Whatever the religious makeup of this country it is clear that the old restrictions on sexual conduct simply don't apply anymore. So what can we do, moving forward?

Translation: Ha! When we said freer contraception wouldn't affect the family, when we said no-fault divorce wouldn't result in a surge in the divorce rate, when we claimed that legalized abortion wouldn't result in more transmission of STDs we were lying/artfully wrong! But now, you have to live with it- no putting the genie back in the bottle! Instead, surrender to our policy whims again- we promise it'll work better this time. And, heck, who really cares about the poor anyways- our white upper-middle class families can accomodate family instability as a reasonable cost of sexual freedom.

The question remains-- do you think the United States is going to return to an era where sex before marriage is taboo, where divorce is close to unheard of, where access to contraception is restricted? Do you think that your policy whims are going to change our countries sexual mores?

I have to say that I think the idea that the sexual revolution, or any of the large cultural shifts of the past 50-60 years, is the result of policy is, well, weird. You really think the liberal politicians and intellectuals of the early 60s were sitting around, ginning up the idea of free sex? The counter culture revolution wasn't created by politicians or pundits. And by the way, the idea that policy was friendly to these revolutions doesn't exactly add up. The sexual revolution, or whatever you want to call it, came into being in spite of policy, often.

Policy is a reaction to culture, not the other way around. Culture trumps politics, which is why, for example, in a country which bans marijuana outright, there isn't an adult alive who couldn't easily get some. Sex with multiple partners before marriage is not going to change through new blue laws. I'm sorry.

Gabriel, are you proposing to outlaw divorce after all?

jenny

Jenny- On marriage, I think it's fair to say that I think it should have a lesser role with respect to legal benefits, but that it should be quite restricted in terms of opportunity for divorce and remarriage- but even more so than on abortion and suchlike I recognize that the ideal is practically out of reach- and I'd happily compromise with government getting out of the marriage business. Of course, I'm Canadian, so that probably has helped form my view, but I think it applies to the American situation as well.

Re: In fact, in many rural parts of the country, you simply can't get an abortion-- the nearest provider is hundreds of miles away.

Which tends to be true of most specialty healthcare when you live in the back of beyond, or even not so beyond. I knew a young man with Hodgkins Lymphoma who lived in Charlevoix MI-- a popular resort and vacation community in the north of the LP. He had to travel all the way down to the UofM in Ann Arbor for some of his tests, a four hour drive.

Re: If we lived in a society where abortion was portrayed as an honorable choice ...

But many of us do not regard it as an honorable choice. I'm someone who will listen to an argument that it should be a legal one, but you will not convince me that it is ever a desirable one.

jenny (writes)

"But what is the principal conservative response to the decades-old sexual revolution? --- If you want to outlaw abortion, contraception, and divorce then stop being such a pussy and come out and say so."

Are those not insufficient options. Ross points out the folly of what passes for reasoned conversation about human sexuality & family formation and you try and force him into some straw man absolutism?

". There's nothing magic about the number two that makes it ideal for child-raising"
Actually there is something (not so much magic) but elementally biological about the number two. That number is the one and only number that can conceive a child together. That is, only a couple made up of one man & one woman can produce the biological offspring of that couple.

Two is not arbitrary at all, not for childrearing or bearing. The social science is clear on the desirability of the intact natural parents raising their children in a married household.

Re: Two is not arbitrary at all, not for childrearing or bearing

Bearing, yes. Rearing, I would take issue with. There are individual cases where a specific mother or father may be the last person in the world who should rear their own child, where even single parenthood is preferrable. And I do belive that the nuclear family would benefit immensely from being immersed in a larger community-- not just what passes for community these days, a random and atomized collection of neighbors, coworkers etc. But rather an extended family and the (yes, cliche-ridden) village. We humans after all spent millennia living in small bands of very closely connected members. That is what nature expects of us when it comes to bringing up our kids.

In general, I'm terminally allergic to 'the horse has been let out of the barn', 'the march of history' type arguments. They have historically been invoked in defense of things that are pretty unsavory: fascism, colonialism, Stalinism, corporate capitalism, managerialism, world unity, environmental destruction, metaphysical materialism, usury, atheism, unregulated markets, globalization, urbanization, genetic engineering, expanding the human lifespan, human cloning, etc. I think that they were wrong then, and are wrong today. The clock can always be turned back, and the horse can be put back into the barn, if we really want to and are willing to pay the price; the question is whether we ought to. In this case, I don't know that we should put all of the horses back, but maybe just a few.

As mentioned above, I think that the 'sexual revolution' was to a large extent good in its inceptions, but went too far. I don't think we should return to the values of the '50s, maybe the mid-'60s (the early phase of the 'Revolution') would be a decent compromise.

I'm not a social conservative, or any other sort of conservative, so I probably shouldn't be answering the question, but to specify:

I think contraception (at least the Pill form of it) is a good thing, to be encouraged, and a necessary and moral solution to global population pressures. It can be overused or used for wrong purposes, and it is, in some places, but I think that in general it's a good thing. I would also add that natural family planning is more effective at preventing pregnancy than it's been given credit for by most, and can also be a useful method of family planning. I'm not opposed to condoms although not particularly happy about them either, and I think they should certainly be legal.

I think that divorce is too common in modern USA, but that it's sometimes a sad necessary evil and undertaken for good reasons. I think that it should be legal, as long as there are grounds for it, and that the Christian churches should handle it on a case-by-case, dispensation basis. I think that the State should try to discourage but not prohibit it.

I think that in my ideal society abortion would be illegal except for rape, incest, life of the mother and perhaps for extreme cases like brain-dead babies. I don't think that agenda is socially feasible in America of today. I think that the distinction between contraception and abortion is that there is a morally significant difference between choosing not to start a process, and stopping a natural process already begun, especially one as fundamental and wondrous as the developing life of a child.

Even if it's an inescapable choice in America today, please, it's anything but 'honorable'.

Are those not insufficient options. Ross points out the folly of what passes for reasoned conversation about human sexuality & family formation and you try and force him into some straw man absolutism?

On this issue, I find Ross very frustrating. His main contribution, over and over, is to point out the folly of reasoned conversation about sexuality. I wish he would stoop to tell me what he thinks.

I am aware, like anyone who pays attention and like anyone who's had her heart broken, of the negative externalities of the sexual revolution. But I am very glad to have come of age after (well after) it happened. What Ross calls the "Americans-into-Swedes" project is something I find not only intellectually respectable but intellectually compelling. I am not sure what project Ross finds compelling.

jenny

You've got something odd here:

Particularly since it isn't clear that most illegitimate births in the United States are "unwanted" births to begin with.

seems to negate

In other words, you either need to deny that rising out-of-wedlock birth rates are bad for society (which you can do, but not very persuasively),

On the contrary: It is conservatives who have to argue that it would be better for families if the kind of dads who would tend to abandon their children would instead stick around and hopefully not abuse their children or spouses. Which you can do, but not very persuasively. Liberal and conservative policies will have no effect on whether children are born to the poor--the poor are human, and humans breed. What we're talking about is whether couples who don't want to stay together should be forced by either legal requirement or economic necessity to stay together. And once the argument is in those terms, it's hard for the conservative to win.

Consumatopia (writes)

"What we're talking about is whether couples who don't want to stay together should be forced by either legal requirement or economic necessity to stay together. And once the argument is in those terms, it's hard for the conservatives to win."

#1. Really, when did we start talking about this? Especially cast in these narrow terms?

#2.Funny thing, what people "want" has an awful lot to do with the social expectations society sets for them. Legal requirements and economic necessity reflect what we as a culture value in the institution of marriage. It is within this context that individual couples form the idea of weather they "want" to stay together in the first place.

What we're talking about is whether couples who don't want to stay together should be forced by either legal requirement or economic necessity to stay together. And once the argument is in those terms, it's hard for the conservative to win.

There was a fascinating study a few years ago that made it on to the front pages of the papers looking at troubled marriages- which found that divorce didn't, on average, make people happier, and that those who stayed married were quite likely to become much happier. Certainly one thing one might take from this is that people get divorced more quickly and willingly than their own happiness would dictate- and this does not even take into account the welfare of children.

I wrote imprecisely. My objection isn't that conservatives will force people to act against their desires. Even accepting point 2 my point still stands. (But it's funny how we blame society for making other people want what we would rather they didn't want--cue the Isaiah Berlin positive liberty/totalitarianism rant.)

Put the question another way--should the kinds of parents who don't want to get married today instead want to get married? Even accepting desire as completely social constructed, the answer is still obvious--the kinds of dads who father illegitimate kids probably shouldn't be hanging around their kids in the first place. In other words, the present socially constructed desire seems superior to the conservative proposal for new socially constructed desires (or restoration of the old social constructions).

Certainly one thing one might take from this is that people get divorced more quickly and willingly than their own happiness would dictate- and this does not even take into account the welfare of children.

How does one avoid taking away the conclusion that people who are better at solving their problems will tend to stay married?

How does one avoid taking away the conclusion that people who are better at solving their problems will tend to stay married?

Well, I'll take that as authorization to dismiss divorcees as incapable of sophisticated problem-solving. But seriously, there are numerous reasons why marriage is good for happiness, and we shouldn't be surprised that perseverence even in bad marriages generally has better results for happiness than divorce. Are there likely to be other contributing factors to the survey results? Of course. I'm willing to stipulate that. But why can't you recognize that the most obvious explanation might be a contributing cause as well?

In general, I'm terminally allergic to 'the horse has been let out of the barn', 'the march of history' type arguments.

Cool beans. I'm still waiting for someone here to say that they think that rolling back the sexual revolution in America is at all a plausible possibility in the next, say 25 years. The next 50? Anyone?

I'm still waiting for someone here to say that they think that rolling back the sexual revolution in America is at all a plausible possibility in the next, say 25 years. The next 50? Anyone?

I'll bite. Sure, I think it's possible with a good mixture of policies and some favourable cultural currents. You probably wouldn't go back the whole way, but some substantial improvement is a definite possibility. Heck, some substantial improvement is a substantial possibility without policy changes.

Moreover, even if you don't get some sort of tipping point effect necessary for a counter-revolution, there would still be a marginal effect- and even if an additional 2% of American children benefited from stable family life than otherwise would be the case, can we doubt that it would be worth it?

Re: Funny thing, what people "want" has an awful lot to do with the social expectations society sets for them. Legal requirements and economic necessity reflect what we as a culture value in the institution of marriage. It is within this context that individual couples form the idea of weather they "want" to stay together in the first place.

If I were to make the same argument about economics and capitalism (i.e. that people's economic goals and desires have a lot to do with what society teaches and expects of them), which I do make often, I suspect that the conservatives here would disagree quite vociferously. I think that there is definitely a lot to be said for false consciousness arguments, both in economic and sexual matters (I don't think that greed and the single-minded pursuit of wealth will make people happy, nor will lust, nor will aborting one's child) but I also don't think they should be taken too far. I think most of us can conceive circumstances in which we would be married to someone we could not stand, and in which we couldn't be happy without leaving, and I don't think we would want to be legally prohibited.


I think that some marriages are unsalvageably unhappy, and that yoking together two people who can't stand each other will accomplish nothing, and ruin the chances of everyone to find a better life in other circumstances. I also think that there are quite a few people who get divorced far too easily and without really trying to make it work. I don't know that the law can differentiate with perfect judgment between the two cases, so as I said above, I think that 'discouraged, not prohibited' is a good approach for the law to take. I do think divorce should be counsidered as a failure and as a necessary evil, not as just another lifestyle choice. And no, this has nothing to do with going back to the 1950s, it isn't even close.

Well, I'll take that as authorization to dismiss divorcees as incapable of sophisticated problem-solving.

As well you should, that's exactly my point. People who make bad decisions tend to find themselves in situations in which divorce becomes a reasonable response. Common sense and statistics are in agreement here. Divorce does not turn people into bad decision makers.

Because the data is consistent with what we already know (people who tend to be unhappy are people who tend to get divorced), there's no reason to adopt a new hypothesis in which troubled couples are making bad decisions in just one direction. (Surely there exist couples who should have divorced sooner than they did.)

Moreover, there's a difference between parents who were never married, who never contemplate marrying, who obviously shouldn't marry-- and parents who divorce. When we talk about illegitimate children, we're talking about the former.

People who make bad decisions tend to find themselves in situations in which divorce becomes a reasonable response.

Well, if we've decided people who get divorced are, as a class poor decision makers, why shouldn't we emphasize the desirability of making what is (for most) the best decision: to tough it out and work hard to rescue a marriage? After all, your argument turns on the view that those who remain married are better decision-makers.

Of course, the effects of divorce on children massively outweighs this consideration, but let's leave that be for the time being.

After all, your argument turns on the view that those who remain married are better decision-makers.

Close. It turns on the view that people who are good decision makers are in the better marriages. People who are bad decision makers are in worse marriages. Divorce is not the mistake, it is the partial undoing of the mistake.

It turns on the view that people who are good decision makers are in the better marriages.

Perhaps so. But this is a longitudinal study. We're dealing with people who already are in bad marriages. Among that class, those who remain married have pretty good outcomes. And apparently this is more dramatically so for those in the worst marriages:

"the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later."

"the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later."

Regression toward the mean. If you split your couples into happy and unhappy, you're going to get a good chunk of couples who are just going through a bad phase. Those couples are more likely to stay married, and so a statistical illusion arises in which it looks like divorce makes people unhappy.

Actually, did you notice this line:

"Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married."

They try to spin this away, but it's pretty obvious that yes, in fact, marriages that end in divorce were much worse to being with than those that did not, even with the subset of marriages in their study.

At least they were honest enough to admit it.

JonF:

You don't have to accept abortion. All I am saying is that as long as a stigmatized choice, pro-lifers really shouldn't get to read convenient interpretations into the emperical data, because the lack of societal acceptance of abortion puts some-- perhaps many-- women in the position where they feel they have to carry to term pregnancies that they wish to terminate. That's the cost of the stigma.

Re: All I am saying is that as long as a stigmatized choice, pro-lifers really shouldn't get to read convenient interpretations into the emperical data, because the lack of societal acceptance of abortion puts some-- perhaps many-- women in the position where they feel they have to carry to term pregnancies that they wish to terminate. That's the cost of the stigma.

For those of us who regard abortion as morally deplorable (but occasionally a necessary evil) that's not a bug it's a feature.
And whatever happened to "safe, legal and rare"? If you have the first two nailed down then the stigma you lament is part of the foundation of the third element in that phrase, much like the stigma against smoking.

JonF:

I understand that the stigma is a feature, not a bug, to those who are horrified about abortion. It's just that stigmatizing a behavior that is arguably responsible in certain situations may lead to people making less responsible choices. You can still argue that this is preferable because the stigmatized behavior is in fact very bad, but what you can't do is ignore the stigma in figuring out why people make the choices they do (which is what Ross did in his post).

As for safe, legal, and rare: it seems to me that one can say that abortion should be "rare" while nonetheless acknowledging it is the right choice as a backstop in certain situations. I am sure, for instance, that many people feel that way about fetuses with serious birth defects.

But even when we are talking about behavioral issues, one can contend that the "rarity" of abortions should result from people responsibly using contraceptives and Plan B and preventing pregnancy. When those methods fail or were not used properly, abortion can both be the right choice, not subject to any stigma, while at the same time being rare. That's a plausible goal.