« The Blame Game | Main | A Question of Motives »

The Latin Mass

30 Jul 2007 12:00 pm

As a self-identified conservative Catholic who's regularly appalled by the state of the liturgy in the American Church, I'm generally sympathetic to those cheering the reinstatement (or, since it was never technically banned, the promotion) of the Tridentine Rite. However, the argument raised in this op-ed (via Andrew) speaks to some of my own fears:

It’s easy enough to see where this is going: same God, same church, but separate camps, each with an affinity for vernacular or Latin, John XXIII or Benedict XVI. Smart, devout, ambitious Catholics — ecclesial young Republicans, home-schoolers, seminarians and other shock troops of the faith — will have their Mass. The rest of us — a lumpy assortment of cafeteria Catholics, guilty parents, peace-’n’-justice lefties, stubborn Vatican II die-hards — will have ours. We’ll have to prod our snoozing pewmates when to sit and stand; they’ll have to rein in their zealots.

And we probably won’t see one another on Sunday mornings, if ever.

I suppose I would fall into the author's "smart, devout, ambitious Catholic" camp, but I also think that shifting to the vernacular was the right decision overall, however badly implemented; I think that the attempt to increase lay participation in the Mass, however dreadful many of its fruits, was a necessary and long-overdue step in a Church that still has a serious problem with clericalism; and I'm troubled by the self-marginalizing tendencies among many of the people who share my understanding of what Catholic orthodoxy is supposed to mean. I admire what home-schooling parents do, but I don't want to home-school my kids; I wish more people went to confession and fewer people went up to Communion, but I also want to attend a church where the lukewarm and the zealous can feel comfortable sitting side-by-side in the pews; I understand the impulse behind Ave Maria University and all the other redoubts of neo-orthodoxy, but I'm wary of the separatism they embody. And I hate the polarization in the Church that makes me feel like I have to choose between what the op-ed accurately describes as the listlessness of the typical suburban Mass on the one hand - thick with "parents sedating children with Cheerios; priests preaching refrigerator-magnet truisms; amateur guitar strumming that was lame in 1973" - and what often seems like a strident, more-Catholic-than-the-Pope zealotry on the other.

Comments (52)

The real Achilles heel for the West will be if a third-world Pope is ever elected.

Jean Raspail, author of the conservative classic Camp of the Saints, predicted this decades ago. Using the cover of "rights talk," the third-world "pope" will encourage the third-world invasion of the West.

Opus Dei is the perfect example of this. Nominally conservative, they are not traditionalists. Most of them are bad at Latin, and few could even complete the exercises in Bradley's Arnold. Nevertheless, promoting a few button issues to appease "social conservatives," they outright support the third-world invasion of the West. Many of them have a very Latin America, Evangelical-Catholic fusion view of the world.

Conservative Roman Catholics need to drop this post-Enlightenment baggage, and return to a traditional form of Catholicism, more like Orthodox, where one's faith is embedded in a particular tradition, history and ancestry.

As a Euro-American, I am involved in such a Church (which outright rejects Vatican II) for people of British or European ancestry. We are the true torchbearers.

barbari invenerunt. Vir occidentalis servandus est!

Holy crap, Ross isn't kidding about them.

As a onetime Roman Catholic turned Eastern Orthodox my sympathies are mixed here. On the one hand I agree that the modern Mass is frequently an aesthetic disaster, but I fail to see why using Latin, a language now known by very few people, should be such a touchstone. Perhaps Vatican II should have kept the old Mass more or less as was, but authorized translations into the local language. While on contentious issues like divorce and birth control Rome could benefit immensely from a careful studying of the Eastern concept of Ekonomia.
As for that "Third world invasion of the West", I doubt Rome will play any real role in immigration issues. The Church's influence on European politics has not been lower since Domitian was Emperor. And the USA, for all its ostentatious religiosity, takes little account of the Vatican's opinions as the Iraq war shows.

Okay, see, I'm much, much more amenable to religion and religious institutions than your average ultra-left secularist. But if people think that the way to recapture their churches vitality is to have it conduct its liturgy-- the primary vehicle of spiritual communication between the church and its congregants-- in a dead language.... I mean, pardon the expression, but Jesus Christ.

I get more people to confession, but fewer too communion? Why? Honest question: I'm Catholic lite (episcopalian), so my exposure to commands to avoid communion stem from bishops trashing John Kerry.

I guess my attachment to the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (The Mass of John xxii) is that I always know what I am going to get. I don't have to worry that a Marty Haugen tune will blare from a rock band at the back of the sanctuary while girls in leotards dance down the aisle holding streamers and ceramic bowls full of jasmine scented incense.

The old Mass is sacred, beautiful and mysterious every single time.

If you want to see disunity and liturgical confusion, you don't need the old Mass. Just walk into four different churches in four neighborhoods and try and get your head around the fact that they are all Catholic. Latin adds consistency. It's really that simple.

By the way, you don't need to speak Latin to understand the Mass. For forty bucks you can buy a lovely missal with the English alongside the Latin.

Freddie: my guess is that the move back to more Latin Mass is an attempt to move away from what Ross describes as "the listlessness of the typical suburban Mass". The argument is that in trying to democratize -- small d -- Catholicism, the church has lost a good chunk of its appeal, and it should try to differentiate itself by being more interesting in various ways. As a left-of-center episcopalian I have some empathy.

Note, however, the cognitive dissonance between Ross's support for suburban sprawl (which in the view of pro-density lefties promotes a vapid monoculture) and his frustration with the vapid monoculture of generic suburban Christianity. I wouldn't go so far as to say one explains the other, and pure consistency is difficult, but it's interesting what happens when ideological leanings or views on abstract public policy collide with personal prefences or experience.

By the way, you don't need to speak Latin to understand the Mass. For forty bucks you can buy a lovely missal with the English alongside the Latin.

Ah. So you can exclude people economically as well as linguistically. Sounds great.

Maybe this is because I was, if not exactly raised to be Protestant, at least given a heavy dose of Protestantism (there are three pastors on my mother's side of the family, and I went to church regularly). But I find all of this completely insane. Where is the doctrinal basis for conducting the liturgy in a (slightly bastardized version of) the language of the late Roman Empire? If you're worried about consistency why not adopt a consistent set of vernacular translations?

And is it because lay Catholics are encouraged not to read the Bible that we have a self-described Christian saying his religion is for white people?

I share Ross's background, and his sentiments. But not his fear: there's very little danger that the old Mass will become so widespread as to create sizable and polarized factions in each parish, or even in each diocese.

What's more likely to happen is what happened to me when I first heard an old Mass, and what happened to like-minded friends I later encouraged to attend. First, I loved the reverence, and the sense that the priest (who faced the cross) was offering a sacrifice for me much as the old Temple priests offered sacrifices for the Jews. Second, I thought most of my comrades in the pews were a little kooky, and not in the amiably muddled way that my local parish congregation is a little kooky. Third, I decided that if we could keep the new Mass as it is, but get the priest to turn around (to emphasize that the Mass is a sacrifice and not a cooking show), that most of the post-VII excesses would evaporate, while the benefits (like the vernacular, and congregational participation) would remain.

And that experience is, I think, precisely what BXVI hopes will happen: not polarization, not replacement of one Mass by another, but a kind of cross-pollination that makes the new Mass more like the old, while remaining new.

The op-ed writer lost me when he said that having a Mass in Latin left him "irate." His predictions of polarization are based on the false assumption that lots of people will have similar experiences. Maybe, but I doubt it.

Well, the Holy Father is promoting continuity and reform; this is his thinking on the subject. I think the privilege to seek ones’ heritage is integral to those two points or themes of his pontificate/papal program. As a traditional Catholic (not to be confused with Traditionalist), I believe there will be a greater feel for the unicity of the Church when we recapture our patrimony in light of what is going on today. You know you can’t understand the diversity and oneness of a family without pulling out the family album once in a while. Benedict wants the Church and the faithful to get in touch with their Catholic Christian identity, so they may know and live what it means to be Catholic. Unfortunately, many parts of our identity have been lost. It’s time to recapture our Catholic patrimony!

Freddie and BP -

There is no doctrinal basis for conducting the liturgy in Latin. The earliest Masses were in Greek, because that's what Christians spoke. They switched to Latin when it became the common language of Christianity. Support for Latin today has everything to do with: a) supporting tradition (e.g., this is the Mass as my grandparents heard it, and as St. John Vianney said it); and b) supporting universality (e.g., if I hear Mass in Boston or in Brazzaville, I'll know exactly what is going on).

Freddie -

The $40 missals that Aaron mentions are provided free at the door at the Latin Mass parish near me. Nobody is excluded economically.

Nicholas:

A Catholic isn't supposed to go to communion unless he is in a state of sanctifying grace. You get to a state of sanctifying grace by going to confession and being absolved. Taking communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin.

There is a concern among many orthodox Catholics that too many people are receiving communion without first going to confession. I know this all sounds nutty to non-catholics, but when you believe that the host is a true, physical manifestation of the Godhead, these issues tend to take on great meaning.

That is the source of the dispute over pro-choice politicians receiving communion. The Church teaches that to promote or support an excommunicable offense (e.g. abortion) is a mortal sin and should preclude one from receiving communion. Here, confession does you no good, because if you continue to support abortion when you come out of the confessional, it indicates that you were not "truly sorry" for your sins. This lack of sincerity vitiates the absolution you wold have received.

Anyhow, this is all a big messy fight in the Church right now.

I guess Ross is making the point that when it comes to the sacraments, he is in the conservative camp, but he doesn't necessarily share our desire for broad liturgical reform.

I'm sorry, is having an abortion grounds for excommunication?

Freddie -

The $40 missals that Aaron mentions are provided free at the door at the Latin Mass parish near me. Nobody is excluded economically.

I know, and I'm sorry. I was just being a snark.

I do think that there is a larger point to be made, though, in the fact that, written translations or no, there is certainly a symbolic exclusion in reciting the liturgy. And that plays into some of the negative images of the Church, such as the notion that it is hyper-hierarchical and obsessed with status and exclusion, to the detriment of the lay people.

I think that the Pope's decision to provide for a more liberal use of the tridentine Mass is actually meant to counteract the divide Andrew and Ross are discussing. There has been a lot of angst I'm told among traditionalists about not being able to celebrate the pre-Vatican II liturgy, even leading to schism (Piux X society, etc.) at the extremes. The hope is that permitting a wider use of the liturgy will aid the process of reconciliation between the arch-traditionalists and those that prefer the vernacular because both will have that option available. Hopefully both groups will be able to focus more on the heart of the liturgy itself, the Word and the Eucharist, rather than the format.

To Andrew's point though, it's not clear to me that there is a direct correlation between doctrinal orthodoxy and a preference for the Latin Mass. There are plenty of orthodox Catholics that have no real preference for the Latin Mass, although they certainly would prefer an improvement in the quality of the liturgy.

I really am surprised by the concern over Latin. Anyone who goes to a Latin Mass every Sunday will know what's going on pretty quickly. The old Mass isn't very complicated. After hearing it nine or ten times, I had most of it memorized (the English translation, that is), and a missal or paper missalette can provide the epistle and Gospel. It's not like Catholics are being asked to translate the Aeneid. It's about ten or fifteen pages of Christian prayers that most Novus Ordo Catholics know already. The hand wringing over "learning Latin" is not necessary.

"I'm sorry, is having an abortion grounds for excommunication?"

Yes, but the excommunication is lifted the moment you confess the sin and receive absolution. I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

Ross,

I read your work with great interest, usually for your excellent and much needed domestic policy analysis. In fact normally I agree so much I never feel the need to comment. However this post raises several critical points that simply must be addressed if the Pope's intention is to be realized.

You write: I suppose I would fall into the author's "smart, devout, ambitious Catholic" camp, but I also think that shifting to the vernacular was the right decision overall, however badly implemented;

The key here, as you indicate, is "badly implemented." Not only were banal and poorly translated scriptures and prayers thrust upon the Church but the modest and sensible changes indicated by the actual Vatican document were pushed aside in order to radically reorient the liturgy. The Holy Father's Motu Proprio is fundamentally designed not as attack upon the vernacular but rather to restore the orientation of the worship towards the Lord. Indeed, Benedict emphasizes the importance of Scripture readings in the vernacular in the same document in which he liberalizes the traditional Mass.

You write: I'm troubled by the self-marginalizing tendencies among many of the people who share my understanding of what Catholic orthodoxy is supposed to mean. I admire what home-schooling parents do, but I don't want to home-school my kids; I wish more people went to confession and fewer people went up to Communion, but I also want to attend a church where the lukewarm and the zealous can feel comfortable sitting side-by-side in the pews; I understand the impulse behind Ave Maria University and all the other redoubts of neo-orthodoxy, but I'm wary of the separatism they embody.

I read this situation as quite the opposite of you. First, this entire document is designed to end the seperatism. In the situation we have today, we have enclaves of Indult Latin Masses and communities who frequently are not SELF-marginalized but rather marginalized by the diocese and bishops who wish to contain them on the fringe. This document frees priests to when available offer the traditional Mass back into the life of the ordinary parish. Are there elements of traditionalists who are drawn to seperatism? You bet, but quite frankly this very document completely undermines that notion. Instead of driving an hour to attend a Indult Mass, in a community that is seperate and untainted by the world with the mentality that you are a Catholic Green Beret for your devotion to the cause, now hopefully people will be challeneged to attend a traditional Mass, maybe a low Mass, in perhaps an ordinary parish with all that's flawed in it, and brought into contact on a daily basis with all the problems and baggage that your average Catholic parish has these days. This is a fantastic opportunity for both the traditionalist to bring devotion, zeal and orthodoxy back into parish life and indeed the parish to engage with traditional Catholics instead of dumping them off on the Indult community (or worse the SSPX.) As for the Ave Maria situation, as one with first hand knowledge of the situation there, that disaster is entirely driven not by traditionalist zeal but much more by charismatic notions of Catholic community and a billionaire's meglomania.

You write:And I hate the polarization in the Church that makes me feel like I have to choose between what the op-ed accurately describes as the listlessness of the typical suburban Mass on the one hand - thick with "parents sedating children with Cheerios; priests preaching refrigerator-magnet truisms; amateur guitar strumming that was lame in 1973" - and what often seems like a strident, more-Catholic-than-the-Pope zealotry on the other.

As indicated above, I really do think that the Holy Father has struck a important balance here, and sees this not as a force for polarization (which lets not kid ourselves already exists and I don't see the liberals trying to end it by integrated traditional minded Catholics into the broader parish community) but rather for uniting the Church in one mind with both the ordinary and extraordinary rite mutually enriching one another. Perhaps in the end we will get a liturgy the encompasses the best of both much as was the intention of the Second Vatican Council to begin with. Strange world isn't it?

there is certainly a symbolic exclusion in reciting the liturgy. And that plays into some of the negative images of the Church, such as the notion that it is hyper-hierarchical and obsessed with status and exclusion, to the detriment of the lay people.

This is true, but only to a point. There is as much or more exclusion in a liturgy invented or re-worded by each priest according to his lights, which is too often what happens in the new Mass. At the old Mass, the priest cannot be a showman: his facing the cross, and his prescribed gestures, exclude it as much as does the Latin.

And you might note that people tend to see hierarchal obsessions only when they are themselves so obsessed. My Slovak peasant grandparents used to kiss the ring of their parish priest (to his great discomfort) and almost prostrated themselves before the bishop who confirmed me. But they never saw themselves as oppressed: they teased one pastor who wore cufflinks and a tailored suit with his collar about having a girlfriend, being richer than God, etc. They respected his rank, not his person.

Joe M.

Great points. The ego-driven clericalism that I experience has its roots in the teen-life mass, liturgical dancing, wireless microphone, group absolution wing of the Catholic presbyterate.

I visit several parishes in the summer months while up north on weekend getaways. No a single parish has announced any real change. It will take awhile for Priests to perfect Latin for the mass and new seminarians to come through the pipeline. It will also take time for word to spread and parishioners to start requesting the implementation of the extraordinary mass.
While I agree that the authors comments are valid concerns, I don’t think they will play out. Certain parishes will never have a Latin mass & others will downplay their vernacular masses. The order says 1 & only one Latin mass per Sunday.
The more likely scenario is that most parishes will eventually experiment with a single Tridentate mass every Sunday (with them coming on line slowly & growing in popularity) . Other masses in the vernacular will grow stricter and less “innovative”. Eventually regular parishioners will now which Sunday (and daily) masses are in Latin and if that’s a good time for you to go, then you will go then. (Along with devotees of the extraordinary mass)
This will take years & I don’t suspect any wide divergence to arise except on the margins were it already lies. Ultimately the Latin mass will be a regular and welcome feature to parish life.

Ross, this post is a microcosm of your whole blog, and is in equal measure both frustrating and endearing. You occupy a sort of between two worlds position in the cultural wars, being a cultural conservative without some of the worst baggage that often goes with it (I'm thinking especially of your attitude towards the role of women in our society, as opposed to what one might fairly call the more typical cultural conservative position on that issue, though that isn't an issue in this post).

The problem is that, apart from the very real question of whether this (sort of) middle ground that you want is even achievable in the abstract, relatively few people are in the same place as you are (and, yes, I'm aware that there are probably more than one might think, because the loonier ones tend to be more vocal, but still). If your buddies in the religious right are successful, they will create a world that is almost as uncongenial for you as it will be for secularists like myself.


>>Many of them have a very Latin America, Evangelical-Catholic fusion view of the world.
>>Conservative Roman Catholics need to drop this post-Enlightenment baggage, and return to a traditional form of Catholicism, more like Orthodox, where one's faith is embedded in a particular tradition, history and ancestry.
>>As a Euro-American, I am involved in such a Church (which outright rejects Vatican II) for people of British or European ancestry. We are the true torchbearers.
>>barbari invenerunt. Vir occidentalis servandus est!

I find this paragraph both false and personally insulting. I am a (fairly heterodox) Christian of Asian ancestry. Christianity existed in my ancestors' homeland beginning in 52 AD, at the point in time when northern Europe was still inhabited by pagan barbarians who practiced human sacrifice. Such non-Western societies as Armenia, Ethiopia, Syria and others were officially Christian long before the Saxons, Vikings and other barbarians had ever heard of civilization, much less Christianity. This is of course referring only to the visible Church, in addition of course I think that God inspired men of all religions through visions and through the call of conscience, long before the Europeans ever set foot on their shores.

Christ was not a European, and he was not white. He was the fulfilment of everything that is true in all world religions, and he died for all men, not just some.

If Christianity is becoming increasingly Black, Asian and Latin-American, it is because Euro-Americans have become so sated with greed and comfort that they no longer can pay attention to God. Who cares? Christianity was there long before the United States, capitalism, democracy, liberal individualism, etc. were ever dreamed of, and it will be there long after they are gone. Christianity was a Middle-Eastern faith in its origin, then it became a largely European faith (though not entirely), and now it's becoming an increasingly Latin American faith. Latin Americans have suffered and held to their faith long enough, it's time for them to be recompensed.

And incidentally, Orthodoxy is as far as I know (not being Orthodox) not a 'national church' in the sense that my interlocutor implies. It's on the contrary a series of national churches, some of which are Asian, others Middle Eastern, African, or European, and each of which has its own culture and nationality.

I don't have to worry that a Marty Haugen tune will blare from a rock band at the back of the sanctuary

And there I thought that only the Lutherans had to put up with the Haugenization of the liturgy, etc.

OTOH, the Latin Mass is just silly. "Oh, but it's so beautiful!" You want beauty, get it on video and watch it at home. I suspect this boils down to "it makes me feel so superior!" Which is *not* the spirit in which anyone should be taking communion. Search your hearts, folks, and think about where your condescension towards the vernacular Mass really stems from.

but I also think that shifting to the vernacular was the right decision overall, however badly implemented;

Characteristic of ceremonial is a certain set of expectations and habits between the celebrant and those he leads. The generation of a synthetic rite disrupted that completely. There is not a clear dichotomy between plans and their implementation in this case. While we are at it, why would retaining 1500 years of tradition have been 'the wrong decision'?

I think that the attempt to increase lay participation in the Mass, however dreadful many of its fruits, was a necessary and long-overdue step in a Church that still has a serious problem with clericalism;

"Necessary" toward what end? How does having a scrum of eucharistic ministers in the sanctuary put a dent in fraternal crookery amongst the priest corps? By the way, when you are at a funeral contemplating the deceased, do you consider yourself to be passive and useless when you have not been given a speaking part?

but I also want to attend a church where the lukewarm and the zealous can feel comfortable sitting side-by-side in the pews;


Comfortable?

Re: Latin adds consistency. It's really that simple.

We Orthodox generally do our Liturgy in the local language, maybe with snippets of Greek or Slavonic or whatever if there are lots of Old World parishoners still. Yet we manage to have consistency and we don't have rock bands in the sanctuary or mimes or ballerinas. There are some local variations: the Greeks may sing one antiphon, the Slavs another, but these variations also date back centuries. And of course we pray for a president (in the US) not for a king, tsar or emperor. You can have modern languages and tradition.

One of the most powerful, beautiful Masses I attended was at La Madeleine in Paris ten years ago. I was straining to follow with my smattering of French, when to my surprise the Gloria, Credo, and Agnus Dei were sung in Latin, in Mode V I think, the tune that most people know.

I'm not old enough to have gone through this the first time, and 10 years ago it wasn't a cause celebre. This was not a Tridentine Mass--it was the Norvus Ordo, with these propers in Latin.

I was surrounded by many different speakers--I distinctly remember German-speakers behind me, and Italians in the pew in front of me.

I never felt more Catholic in my life than the moment we all came together in Latin. And everyone stumbled through it. It was a very moving, powerful moment within the Body of Christ, where all barriers cease.

And as for the absurdity of using a dead language from the end of the Roman Empire: I agree it's an arbitrary twist of fate. But because it's not a vernacular for anyone, it reminds me of the transcendence that is occuring. I don't mind that some parts of the Mass not be in the language of prime-time tv.

We should not encourage people to be lukewarm in the faith. Read the final verses of the Apocalypse. Further, the Tridentine Mass will not discriminate the sinner. Penitents are very much welcome into the embrace of the Church. If you really feel sorry of your sins, wouldn't you wish to express it more deeply to God? Isn't the Tridentine Mass a good oppurtunity for you to show God that you are serious?

Now for those Jews who want to bring attention to themselves: If you want Christians to become non-violent toward Jews and other non-Christians, you better support the Tridentine Mass because it transforms people's hearts to be more loving and peaceful. That could work to your advantage.

Now for those Jews who want to bring attention to themselves: If you want Christians to become non-violent toward Jews and other non-Christians, you better support the Tridentine Mass because it transforms people's hearts to be more loving and peaceful. That could work to your advantage.

That was a joke right? I can't tell anymore in this thread.

The Mass in Latin was the norm for hundreds of years. You could go to any Catholic Church anywhere in the world and understand the Mass.

Now if you go to a country and don't know the language, you're "excluded" at a Catholic Mass.

Universal meant "universal" for a reason.

I don't have a particular dog in the Latin Mass fight, except if they are still praying for the conversion of the Jews, they ought to stop. Vatican II made a lot of progress on driving anti-semitism out of the church, and it shouldn't come back.

But I would note that I think the broader issue is whether you'd prefer a very powerful church with huge numbers of adherents, but with a great diversity of views and practices, or whether you'd prefer a less powerful, minority religion, with fewer adherents (especially in the first world) and less diverity of views and practices.

This is the issue on birth control, this is the issue on abortion, and this is the issue on traditional rites.

What gets me is conservative Catholics who want to have it both ways-- who want to argue that there's this huge constituency of Catholics whose views deserve to be seriously weighed, but equating those views with the doctrines of the hierarchy which are not shared by most of the faithful, at least here in America.

"I don't have a particular dog in the Latin Mass fight, except if they are still praying for the conversion of the Jews, they ought to stop. Vatican II made a lot of progress on driving anti-semitism out of the church, and it shouldn't come back."
--Dilan Esper


First off -- that prayer was essentially taken out even before the Catholic Church abandoned the Latin Mass.

But why is it anti-semitic to pray that the Jews will be converted to the true religion? Doesn't praying for their salvation show concern for their well being?

I'm a Catholic. If a sincere Baptist prays that I'll become a convert to the Baptist church, how is that harmful to me?

We are God's chosen people + How dare you pray for our conversion = chutzpah.

I am the embodiment of a Catholic. I went to Catholic school from kindergarten through college. At 37, I am also the embodiment of a Vatican II upbringing. I also wrote full-time for a Catholic newspaper for 5 years.

Guess what?

I came to a realization about 2 1/2 years ago that the modern Catholic was on the wrong track. I wanted to get back in touch with my Catholic roots and find out exactly what the differences between the Old Mass and the New Mass. Reading about the differences was profound.

Experiencing the Tridentine Mass in person was exhilirating.

The Latin will come in time. There is a translation in the Missal to guide you. Admittedly, it was frustrating at first. But, like anything else worthwhile, the more you go, the more you learn. And the more spiritually fulfilled you become.

Personally, I find the New Mass to be a circus with little to no reverence. The Old Mass is so spiritual and so mystical and so powerful, that it is impossible (at least for me) not to be endeared and closer to Christ. Before criticizing the Old Mass, learn about it. If you have experienced it a long time ago, try it again and see what you've missed over the last 40 years.

Most of all, whether you like it or not, respect it. Something about it had to be OK if it was the norm for CENTURIES. Only an ignorant person would dismiss it entirely.

What's wrong with praying for the conversion of Jews? Nothing, in the abstract.

But in the real world, there was this event called the Holocaust. And while some Catholics were heroic in standing up against it, many in the hierarchy did not, and gave many people the impression that it wasn't exactly a high priority that Jews were dying.

Further, in the real world, there was the issue of the Church's position that the Jews killed Jesus, which was used by many anti-semites as an excuse and justification.

A lot of progress has been made by the Church in repairing its relations with the Jewish community. It would not be a good thing to throw that away.

One way of stopping anti-semitism is for the Jews to just shut-up. We didn't hate you, so don't tempt us. This is our internal matter. Catholic internal matter.

Noel, that's truly offensive. The reason it isn't an "internal matter" is, simply put, because it created a climate where a lot of people died in the not-so-distant past.

Dilan, haven't you received the memo? The good Friday prayer had been deleted long time ago. We Goyims are not offended by you because obviously many of our Saints are Jews. But if you start pushing the lie until now that the Sanhedrin has nothing to do with the death of Jesus, I cannot accept that. You have the media, you have Hollyood,... but please leave the Church alonel.

Oh dear. Noel seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder about our Jewish brothers. Hint: "You have the media, you have Hollywood (sic)" Always a bit of a giveaway.

On balance, I'm glad about the indult. I don't see there being a problem in terms of a split Church: we already have that. Ireland is just the same as the US at that level.

What we don't need is guys like Noel telling Jewish people to "just shut up". Last time I checked, the US was a free country, and it turns out that there are Protestants and Orthodox commenting on this thread. They're all entitled to their views and their comments.

And adding lines about Jewish dominance of "the media and Hollywood" really does smack of low intensity anti-Semitism. Suggesting that Jewish people remarking on our Mass is a way of them "tempting" us to hate them is even worse. Speak for yourself, Noel. Most of us regard that sort of remark as WAY beyond the pale.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know that I am not entitled to the freedom of speech in America which you claim to be your right. I also didn't its anti-semitic to state a fact like Jews run the media and Hollywood. Everyone who speak against you are tagged as anti-semitic. You my friend is a member of the 24 hour jewish blog brigade. Your rapid response to my blog posted when everybody was asleep is really suspect.

Noel:

Does your mom know that you aren't taking your meds?

By the way, someone tell Noel I'm not even Jewish. And that his comments speak for themselves.

This is getting into a stupid argument about Catholics versus Jews and it certainly isn't intended to be.

First of all, praying for the conversion of Jews or any other religion is not a slap in anyone's face. If you follow a religion, whatever it may be, it is because you believe it to be the true vehicle to the pathway of heaven. If a Jew or Muslim or Hindu prayed for Catholics to convert, I wouldn't agree with them that I should convert, but I also wouldn't feel offended. They are simply exercising their belief.

These juvenile arguments are taking away from the meaning and spirit of this debate.

Joe C.:

Wouldn't you feel differently about a group that had murdered 6 million Catholics because of their religion, then had worked for 50 years to remove anti-Catholic references in its religion? Wouldn't it worry you if that group started to reinsert references to Catholics as infidels into their services?

Again, I don't see anything wrong, in the abstract, with people praying for nonbelievers to convert. But you can't view this particular issue outside its context; there's a reason you no longer hear from priests and bishops that the Jews killed Christ, and it has to do with the Holocaust and the fact that many in the Church did not do enough to combat anti-semitism. You can't view Catholic-Jewish relations outside of that lens.

Dilan:

Respectfully, I feel you're way off base. First of all, Catholics did not murder 6 million Jews. Second, Jews and Romans (by the way, I am of Italian descent) were both responsible for the crucifiction. That IS the context. Jews, like it or not, were partly responsible for Christ's death. All of Christianity nbelieves that. Like I said, Romans, particularly Pontius Pilate were equally guilty.

So exactly what were the anti-Semitic references in Catholic doctrine that you're referring to? Praying for the conversion of the Jews? Hardly anti-Semitic. If anything, it shows the endearment of Jews by Catholics if Catholics cared enough about them to add them in the Liturgy in such a specific way.

Furthermore, Catholics like myself who yearn for Traditionalism via the Latin Mass are seeking far more than what you are realizing. We are seeking the reverence, the respect and the true meaning of our religion. Do Catholics tell Jews we think you shouldn't learn Hebrew?

Finally, why don't you look at Pope Pius XII and realize what a truly wonderful leader he was. A traditionalist to the core, he also saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Holocaust by hiding them in the Vatican. Yet, some moron had the gall to write a book called "Hitler's Pope."

>Respectfully, I feel you're way off base. First of all, Catholics did not murder 6 million Jews. Second, Jews and Romans (by the way, I am of Italian descent) were both responsible for the crucifiction.

You're right on target here, Catholicism is not responsible for the Holocaust, Nazi anti-semitism was of a different variety than the Christian type, which admittedly existed. And I agree that praying for the conversion of anyone is not bad thing, it shows concern for them.

I don't see, however, why you're linking the Romans with being of Italian descent. Modern Italians for the most part, if at all, are NOT descended from the ancient Romans, certainly not the Romans of the early empire like Pilatus.

Re: Modern Italians for the most part, if at all, are NOT descended from the ancient Romans

???
Who are they descended from then? Sure, there were some Goths who invaded in the 5th century (and the Lombards a bit later). And in Sicily there were some Arabs and later the Normans. Plus a few Spaniards in the later Middle Ages. But the bulk of the Italian bloodline goes right back to ancient Italia: Mater Roma, the Italian Socii, Magnae Grecae, the Rasenna, and the Celts of the Padus valley.

No. Lots of Goths, lots of Germans before that, some Lombards, it is true, a lot of Arab blood in southern Italy but the Roman and Etruscan stock had disapeared by then. By the late empire, Roman blood had been washed away by the Orontes flowing into the Tiber, as Juvenal put it. Remember, Rome was mostly slaves, many from the north, most from the east. Their descendants became freedmen and eventually Romans. They far outnumbered the native Italians and Romans, who had few children anyway. By the late empire the Romans of the Republic and early empire were for the most part gone. I'm not saying the stock had disappeared completely but the modern Italians can't really say they're any more descended from the Romans than anyone else in Western Europe.

This isn't controversial, this is generally accepted by historians and has been for a long time. Recent DNA tests of modern Italians help confirm this as they find no trace of the Etruscans (who were absorbed into the Roman population by the 2nd century BC).

As an Anglican/Baptist convert to the faith, I saw in the numerous aberrations of the pauline mass (venacular, post vat 2 mass) no dissimilarity to the heretical masses produced by 16th century schismatics like Luther, Cranmer (of henry 8th fame), Swingli, Knox & Calvin. Simply NO outward difference between the "modern-Bugnini mass" and a protestant "worship service", none. In fact many friends who attended the novus ordo paul 6th mass did not believe in or were simply ignorant of the Catholic doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION (the real presences). After too many clown masses, witch masses,father friendly masses, dorito masses, halloween masses guitar masses, cumbyya masses, & dancing priestess masses I literally stopped going to and left the Catholic church. With the advent of Pope Benedict the 16th's Motu Proprio SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM, stating not only was the ancient (3rd) century, Tridentine codified at the council of Trent mass NEVER OUTLAWED but that it was to be permitted, promoted and encouraged THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. NO LONGER COULD leftist/modernity-oriented bishops put a choke hold on the requests for the ancient mass, no longer can Orthodox Catholics be excluded from the mainstream church humiliated, ignored and shunned. Literally millions are flocking to the Ancient Mass all over the world and the vast majority are about the 15 to 40 age group. Traditionalist churches, monasteries, semeniaries and abbeys are literally filled to overflowing and vocations to the Traditional/Orthodox priesthood and religious orders are delayed or backed up because of lack of space to accomadate these young vocations. SORRY FOR THE LONG WINDED MONOLOGY BUT I'M COMING HOME---I'M COMING BACK TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CUZ I NEVER LEFT THE CATHOLIC FAITH.---SHALOM

I GUESS A LOT OF THE CATHOLIC SELF-FLAGATION VIS A VIS THE NAZI HOLOCAUST OF EUROPEAN JEWS AND THE BULLSHIT MEA CULPAS OF THE REACTIONARY "LIBERAL" CATHOLICS IS JUST THAT.IT IS 21ST CENTURY MODERNITY'S ATTEMPT TO BLAME CATHOLICS (IN PARTICULAR, ORTHODOX CATHOLICS) AS THE JEW HATERS DID FOR EVERY ILL THAT HAS AFFLICTED THIS PLANET SINCE THE AGE OF THE BECKER SOCIETY DAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.SO-CALLED LIBERAL CATHOLICS ARE NOT DISSIMILAR TO THE WORST JEW HATERS WHICH IN FACT ARE SEMITES ALSO, HENCE, THE WORST CATHOLIC HATING BIGOTS TEND TO BE REACTIONARY POST VAT 2 PAULINE CUMBYYA 60'S SO-CALLED "LIBERAL CATHOLICS. THEIR DAY IS OVER.

paragogically purslane destructively tolly mustahfiz tarata warbly jussion
http://www.chefdecuisine.com/vegetables/asparagus/asparagusmain.asp >Chef de Cuisine: Asparagus Tips and Recipes
http://www.ccmmagazine.com/features/141.aspx?page=2