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The Long Sneer

10 Jul 2007 12:26 pm

I should say at the outset of this post that I am not a particularly great admirer of Russell Kirk. The Conservative Mind was an important book because it was a useful and timely book: It made a plausible and accessible case that there existed, in Anglo-America, a conservative intellectual patrimony relevant to the politics of the contemporary United States, and did so at a moment when this was an unfashionable opinion (to say the least). For this achievement, contemporary conservatives owe Kirk a great debt, one that can be acknowledged while also acknowledging his limitations as a writer and thinker.

Since Alan Wolfe's hatchet job on Kirk appeared in TNR, I've had several people remark to me - as Matt remarked on his site yesterday - that they really liked Wolfe's essay, but of course haven't read any Kirk themselves. I could be snide about this, but in all honesty, were they to read him, I think they would find ample confirmation for some of the essay's judgments. Kirk is indeed repetitious and somewhat windy; he does tend to cite the same authors repeatedly; he is prone to caricaturing his opponents' ideas (though what intellectual isn't?); and there is something faintly irritating, to me at least, about his constant self-presentation as a humble landowner, "best content when planting little trees at Mecosta." It's the same thing that bugs me about Jedediah Purdy or a Wendell Berry: The romanticization of one's own authenticity, which in turn makes the authenticity seem faintly fraudulent. (Real hermits don't need to boast about being hermits.)

Nonetheless, Wolfe's essay is an intellectual embarrassment of the first order: Smug, dishonest, slipshod, ignorant, and willfully obtuse. Like much of what its author has produced of late, it's less interested in discrediting Kirk than in discrediting the political persuasion he represents, an American conservatism that Wolfe considers either "irrelevant in the face of history", borderline fascist, or (most likely) both. It's also about 6,000 words long, so I'm afraid no blog post can provide the thorough going-over that it deserves. But the following selections, I think, give the flavor of the thing.

To begin with, take this passage:

Kirk's decision to write both Gothic fiction and political philosophy tells you something about modern conservatism. For one thing, he was not alone; conservatives from J.R.R. Tolkien to Ayn Rand were also attracted to fantasy, and, in more recent times, two stalwarts of the Bush administration--Lynne Cheney and I. Lewis Libby--have written historical romances. (Should Newt Gingrich find himself in the White House, God forbid, we would have a fantasy-fiction writer as president.) Fantasy fiction gave Kirk the room to roam, to portray the world as an eternal struggle between good and evil in which the former's cause is not lost so long as it is faithful to everything that makes it good.

The comparison between Kirk's worldview and Tolkien's is apt enough, and the final sentence is tendentious but not entirely inaccurate; the middle chunk is pure rubbish, an "analysis" of the conservative mind that ought to embarrass a college freshman. Except in the most literal sense of the word, Ayn Rand did not write fantasy; the only thing that her doorstop-length novels-of-ideas have in common with Kirk's ghost stories or Tolkien's Middle-Earth saga is that they are not as realistic as, say, the works of Richard Ford. Nor does Atlas Shrugged have anything in common with Scooter Libby's highbrow historical novel The Apprentice, which in turn has almost nothing in common with Newt Gingrich's pulpy alternate-history books. You can learn about as much about the nature of "modern conservatism" from reading this hodgepodge of wildly different "fantasy" novels as you can learn about modern liberalism from parsing the literary efforts of Jimmy Carter and Gary Hart.

It's true that Kirk's interest in gothic fiction and fantasy tells you something about his particular strain of conservatism; it should also tell you a thing or two about the divisions within the modern Right, of which Wolfe seems entirely innocent. For instance, he writes:

Liberalism contains a feature identified by the political philosopher Mark Hulliung as "auto-critique." Rousseau's debt to liberalism, Hulliung believes, was to criticize the Enlightenment in the spirit of the Enlightenment, thus starting a tradition in which those committed to open inquiry would also inquire openly about themselves. Kirk, of course, will have nothing to do with Rousseau; he shares Burke's dismissal of him as "the insane secretary of the National Assembly." But Kirk is just as immune from criticizing conservatism in the name of conservatism. For if conservatism is all but synonymous with religion, then criticism becomes heresy. Besides, conservatism does not need criticism from within; its truths are both timeless and tested by experience, and therefore in no need of logic-chopping by narrow-minded academics.

This complaint is either meaningless, or else it is stupid. Russell Kirk, "immune for criticizing conservatism in the name of conservatism"? Would that be the same Russell Kirk who feuded bitterly with Frank Meyer over what the Right ought to stand for, opening the first great schism in postwar conservatism? The same Russell Kirk who opposed, in the name of conservatism, half the pet causes of the actual-existing American Right, from the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki down through the Cold War "garrison state" (his phrase) to the first Gulf War? (Were Kirk alive today, I doubt that he would be a great admirer of George W. Bush - not that this would earn him any credit with Wolfe, to be sure.) It's true that Kirk never attacked his own premises, but this is an absurd standard to establish: Did Locke write An Attack On the Second Treatise of Government? Did Hobbes write Against Leviathan? (And of course plenty of other conservatives have gone on to attack Kirk's premises, which suggests that conservatism is perfectly capable of generating an "auto-critique.")

Meanwhile, no liberal hatchet job on a conservative writer would be complete without a flash of the race card. Thus this:

The aristocratic gentleman whom Kirk most admired lived a generation after the Framers. He was John Randolph of Roanoke, born in 1773 and died in 1833, a representative and then a senator from Virginia. A farmer, Randolph defended the agricultural way of life, which means that he defended a conservative way of life. Kirk's description of him is as romantic as anything in his Gothic tales: "He lived like a pre- Revolutionary Virginia gentleman, bumping over the wretched roads in his old-fashioned English coach, and his slaves rode blooded horses; but he inhabited a simple cabin and spent the greater part of each year in the oppressive routines of growing tobacco and grains." Randolph spoke on behalf of the old ways: a natural governing class, a suspicion toward federal power, a strict constitution, the planter way of life. All of it was doomed once industrialism and westward expansion became staples of American life, but Randolph's ideas, and those of the social class for whom he spoke, ought to be admired nonetheless: "They asked only to be left unmolested, allowed to buy and sell in a free market, not to be taxed for the benefit of other interests, not to be forced into another mode of life."

It all sounds so pure and Thoreauvian--until one remembers that the things Randolph wanted to buy and sell included those slaves whose horses were pulling his fine coach, and that the mode of life that he was fighting to retain was one that denied the fundamental equality of all human beings.

No slaveowners as intellectual heroes for our Mr. Wolfe! Which is an admirable principle, and one that explains why no contemporary liberal would dream of citing that notorious slaveowner, Thomas Jefferson, as an authority on any political question.

Were this a serious essay, this dig might be followed by a serious investigation of agrarian thought in the United States, and a serious argument - if this is indeed Wolfe's argument - for why the institution of slavery discredits agrarian thinkers. But Wolfe has not written a serious essay; he has written a 6,000-word sneer. So no such argument is forthcoming.

Naturally, given his affinity for long-dead racists, Kirk turns out to be a borderline anti-Semite as well. To begin with, he's insufficiently critical of the Holocaust.

Kirk admits of two possible exceptions to his insistence that ideology is a monopoly of the left, although each of them is cited to confirm his point. Nazism, too, is an ideology--but we should not forget that the Nazis, like all ideologues, held "that human nature and society may be perfected by mundane, secular means." Of all the crimes committed by the Nazis, the proclivity for human perfectibility is an odd one to choose; but it is Kirk's choice.

I'm curious: Exactly how do you "commit" a proclivity? You don't, of course: A proclivity isn't a crime, it's the thing that drives one to commit a crime. And of course the Nazi "proclivity for human perfectability" - which in their case took the form of a quest to nurture a master race, and eliminate threats to its mastery - was precisely the thing that they claimed as motivation for their crimes against the Jews, Slavs, gypsies, homosexuals, etc. Now one could argue that the belief in a master race was in some sense just window dressing for their primal, unreasoned anti-Semitism; this is a topic on which intelligent people can disagree. But again, Wolfe isn't interested in disagreement; he's interested in sneering.

And in imputing anti-Semitism, of course:

... when it comes to Judaism, Kirk has some exceedingly odd ideas. Without the legacy of ancient Israel, he wrote in a book published in 1974, "the American moral order could not have come into existence at all." But we should not conclude from Kirk's comment that he believes Judaism to have made an important contribution to American life. Quite the contrary: following Voegelin, Kirk believes that Judaism's role in history was simply to prepare the way for Christianity. The idea of a Chosen People, Kirk writes, was a necessary prelude to a time in which "God becomes known successively as Creator, as Lord and Judge of history, and as Redeemer." In this role the Jews were not alone; Platonism is another ancient religion that anticipated the coming of Jesus. "Neither the leap of Israel nor the leap of Hellas brought full knowledge of the transcendent order; it required the fusing of Jewish and Greek genius in Christianity for a leap still higher."

Dear me, what an "exceedingly odd idea," this notion that Judaism might have been a precursor to a fuller revelation of God's purposes. Why, it's almost as if Kirk were ... were ... a Christian.

Except that it is one of Wolfe's most telling points against Kirk that he supposedly wasn't a Christian, that he wasn't intellectually gutsy enough to actually pick a specific faith and stick with it:

With four religions unable to be called upon to gird the social order, one might think that Kirk's next step would be to identify the one that, to him, is best suited for the task. But this Kirk never does. He defends religion, but not any particular religion. One looks in vain for apologetics in Kirk's work, for some serious theological demonstration that the ideas associated with a particular tradition, because they are true, are the best ideas for holding society together. Lacking any such thing, Kirk's call for a "sacred patrimony" amounts to little more than Dwight Eisenhower's injunction on the importance of believing in something, whatever that something happens to be. It is really an uplifting form of philosophical indifference ... Against this vapidity, give me Father Neuhaus anytime: when he defends the need for religion in the public square, you are not left in doubt about which religion it is.

Various people have pointed out that Kirk did, in fact, choose a religion, converting to Roman Catholicism in 1964. To which Wolfe has retorted, in a reply to his critics:

I was not interested in, and did not talk about, Kirk's private faith; my point ... was that Kirk's refusal to identify one religion as the public faith whose principles were meant to guide our collective morality reflected a failure to think through his remarkably banal ideas about the importance of religion for the social order ... it was actually out of respect for Kirk's privacy that I did not discuss his personal religious preferences; I do not believe it is my business to talk about people's confessional beliefs.

How noble and high-minded! But this is all rubbish: Kirk does defend a particular religious tradition; he just doesn't defend a particular confession within that tradition. Like many modern conservatives, he suggests that the Western social order is founded on a common Judeo-Christian religious inheritance (a "Mere Judeo-Christianity," if you will) that undergirds our social order, a point of view that he shares, not incidentally, with none other than Richard John Neuhaus, who is despised by many right-wing Catholics precisely for his ecumenism. Perhaps this common tradition is just a figment of Kirk's and Neuhaus' and many other people's imagination; perhaps the contradictions between Judaism and Christianity, or between Catholicism and Protestantism, are too great to provide a common foundation for a social order; perhaps there is simply no middle ground between a purely secular society and a society grounded in, say, Catholic social teaching and nothing else. I think the experience of the United States suggests otherwise, but again, if Alan Wolfe wants to have that argument, by all means. Again, he doesn't; he just wants to sneer.

And sneer:

One final example of faith that fails to serve Kirk's purposes is the notion of a "civil religion," a term originally coined by "well-meaning folk" to call attention to the tendency of Americans to make something sacred out of the special providence of their country. "Such experiments of a secular character never have functioned satisfactorily," Kirk dourly points out. Mimicking Voegelin, Kirk jumps, without pause, from Robert Bellah to Adolf Hitler: "It is scarcely necessary for me to point out the perils of such an artificial creed, bound up with nationalism: the example of the ideology of the National Socialist Party in Germany, half a century ago, may suffice." If fascism can be found in an idea as harmless as that of civil religion, surely it can be found anywhere.

Now, Wolfe is correct that like many mid-century intellectuals (on the Left as well as the Right), Kirk was perhaps too inclined to see Hitlers lurking around every corner. Nonetheless, it's just a little bit much too be lectured on inapt Nazi analogies by a man who recently accused modern conservatives of being the intellectual disciples of the "fascist philosopher" Carl Schmitt. And while the reductio ad Hitlerum may be regrettable, Kirk's larger point about the potential dangers of civil religion is perfectly well-founded, whereas Wolfe's is hopelessly naive: The notion that that it's hard to imagine "an idea as harmless as civil religion" would be news to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the history of Europe between, say, 1789 and 1945.

But enough. I will leave unmolested Wolfe's willful misreading of John C. Calhoun's theory of the Constitution (which I do not agree with, but which certainly deserves more than caricature); his ridiculous claim, in his rejoinder to his critics, that Kirk's "reverence for the Constitution cannot be reconciled with the Constitution's separation of church and state, not, at least, when Kirk simultaneously insists that religion is a necessary prop of social order"; his insistence that only the Enlightenment offers philosophical grounds on which to oppose abortion and slavery; and a host of similarly dubious passages. Again, when Wolfe says that Kirk has severe deficiencies as a writer and thinker, I find myself in agreement with him. It just takes one to know one, apparently.

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Comments (51)

One thing in Kirk that bothered Wolfe does seem still at work among today's conservatives: the inability to recognize fascism-- especially Nazism-- as a right wing movement.

There's a disanalogy with the left here. Most 'progressives' or 'liberals' see Marxist-Leninism as an ultra-leftist brand of tyranny.

What is the right's hang-up about this?

matt,

the right's hang up comes first from a Kirk school of conservatism that groups Nazism as an ideology and says that conservatism opposes all ideologies - while at the same time trying to make conservatism and "the Right" into interchangeable words.

Of course many conservatives are willing to admit it is a right wing movement, but no conservative is willing to admit that Nazism is a radicalized version of conservatism - precisely because Nazism is, and always claimed to be a revolutionary ideology.

Ross,
I was glad someone finally took on Wolfe's piece.

No slaveowners as intellectual heroes for our Mr. Wolfe! Which is an admirable principle, and one that explains why no contemporary liberal would dream of citing that notorious slaveowner, Thomas Jefferson, as an authority on any political question.

If I recall correctly from my reading of Mark Levin's "Men in Black", the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a CT parish.

The foundation of the modern liberal's concept of religious freedom in America comes from that very slaveowner.

Fascism is revolutionary not reactionary as it advocates a complete transformation of the established social order. It's economics are socialist, it's religion is pagan or "civil" and it's foreign policy is fueled by nationalism, not patriotism. Hard to call any movement like that "right-wing"

"What is the right's hang-up about this?"

Yeah, you guys, why won't you just admit that you're Nazis? Or, uh, that Nazis are you?

Seriously, though, maybe the terms "left" and "right" break down at the extremes.

Which armband, indeed ...

Matt, as someone who has an "inability to recognized facism--especially Nazism--as a right wing movement," I find your question hilarious.

I hear it constantly, that fascism and "Nazism" are part of the far-right, but no one every provides one iota of logic for that conclusion. Indeed, Hayek, in Serfdom points to Nazism and Communism as two versions of the same evil, and I have year to hear a persuasive argument (or even any argument beyond "far-right = Nazi") to the contrary.

Thank you, Ross, for this excellent piece. "A long sneer" describes too much partisan writing these days, and for my part I now stop reading when I detect the tone, but I suppose you can consider it part of your job.

Re Nazism as right-wing: I think in a rough-and-ready way there's a useful distinction to be made between "right-wing" and "conservative."

It is obvious to any fair minded study of political theory that Nazism was not very different from Stalinism. It is the government control of the economies and a form of Socialism. The left always wants to smear the right with these people but it never really has a foundation.

This is a brilliant analytical take down of Wolfe on a level with those of Fr. Neuhaus at First Things.

While Kirk is a bit windy, his Roots of American Order is a book that will last. Compared to Kirk, Wolfe is a cipher.

The classification of fascism as right-wing makes perfect sense historically. 1930s Spain is probably the best example.

dear henry-

Thank you for proving my point.

There are several layers of misunderstanding here, exemplified particularly in the comment of Henry Evans. To begin with, the Continental European "right" -- anti-market, anti-individualist, and centralist -- is antithetically opposed to the Anglo-American right and always has been. In every Continental European nation during the 20s, 30s, and 40s, parts of the traditionalist right formed coalitons with emerging fascist movements against the the threat of Communism. In no country, not even Germany, did the fascists rule alone or impose the full theoretical Fascist program, except ironically in the nazi-supported Italian Social Republic from 1943-45. The Francoist forces in the Spanish Civil War were an uneasy coalition of several elements; the Carlists, who were a purely traditionalist and reactionary force dating back to the 19th century; the Falange, which was a traditionalist authoritarian movement with some fascist rhetoric and trappings, but mostly the remnants of the personal following of the late Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera; and the minuscule Juntas de Ofensivo Nacional-Sindicalistas, who unlike all other European fascists were breakaway anarchists rather than breakaway socialists, and who were the closest thing to real fascists in Spain, but still not very close.

Thus, in Spain, unlike elsewhere in Europe, the traditionalists and the Army controlled the coalition, and the ideological fascists were tagging along, mostly as window-dressing to make the coalition more attractive to Mussolini and Hitler to support. After the end of the Civil War there were a few attempts to impose fascist corporatist social ideas, but very halfhearted and mostly abandoned by the early 1950s. Many of the actual fascists were "strongly encouraged" by Franco to volunteer for the Blue Division volunteer unit sent to fight on the Russian Eastern Front, a destination from which few returned to bother Franco further.

The Continental European traditionalist Right, of which the Spanish right was a fair example, was never much at all like the Anglo-American right, and was only ever a tactical ally during the Cold War. Today this strain is seen in French politicians like Chirac and Le Pen, who are detested by the Anglo-American right. The Continetal right cooperated with fascism even though the latter movement was derived primarily from the Continental European left. However, the Anglo-American right never had the slightest sympathy with or desire to cooperate with fascism, and ere iss absolutely no reason why anyone on the American right should accpt the idea that the fascists were "of the right" in any way meaningful in the English language.

I have to agree with some of the above commenters. The equation [Communism = extreme liberalism / Nazism = extreme conservatism] doesn't make much sense. Nazism and Communism are both collective ideologies. The more useful continuum, I think, is not Conservatism vs Liberalism, but Individualism vs Collectivism.

The conventional wisdom, I think, reflects a form of wishful thinking on the part of the left. "Well, sure Communism is wrong, but that doesn't reflect anything inherently wrong with leftism. After all, the right had their Nazis!"

The left needs to use this model because arguing against individualism is more difficult. One could, of course, make the argument that individualism does not empower mankind to do great works of good. On the other hand, individualism by its nature does not empower society to do great works of evil, either; there is no individualist equivalent of Communism or Fascism.

- Alaska Jack

I think this is a poor take on Wolfe. I agree that Wolfe is an ass and that his tone ruins the essay but many of the points Ross puts forward above are pretty shaky.
- What conservative thinkers have really critiqued Kirk's premises? Has anyone really re-thought conservatism? There are political tensions between the religious right and more secular conservatives today but that's about all that really comes to mind and such battles really haven't taken any kind of intellectual form yet.
- Sorry, but Thomas Jefferson didn't invent the separation of church and state. Nor does Wolfe put forward Jefferson as a model for how to live (ie not a hero).
- No Jews want to be a part of this "Judeo-Christian" ethic wherein they are the instrumental means to the goal of Christianity. If you're a Christian be a Christian - don't try to present yourself as also being a part of some grand synthetic tradition (that just happens to culminate in Christ). Wolfe's point is that since Kirk thought such a tradition existed - while simultaneously disparaging Judaism ("too tribal", too ideological) - he is a sloppy thinker.
- Bad news: Schmitt had a huge impact on Strauss who had a huge impact on moder Conservatism. No conspiracy theories - it doesn't mean you're a Nazi - but that is just a fact. (The same goes for liberals via Heidegger.)

The briefness of my prior post is undoubtedly to blame for my being misunderstood. My point was simply that, given post WWI Europe, it is understandable that many people think of fascism as right-wing. Whether this is a view that people should hold is another matter. I would agree that fascism is not an expression of a conservative disposition.

berger,

Did you even read Ross's post? Kirk's views on a number of issues were almost immediately debated and criticized. Ross specifically noted Frank Meyer's often bitter battles with Kirk. In fact, most of those who consider themselves Kirkians - more properly traditionalist conservatives - today are extremely bitter about the shape of modern political conservatism. If you are unaware of the internecine battles of conservatism it might be best to study the issue before making arguments.

The irony is that Kirk is less of an influence on most political conservatives than ever before. Wolfe's sneering tone and ignorant assertions prevented him from offering criticisms most on the right today would agree with.

I have a generally dim opinion of Kirk, and his strain of American conservatism in general, but I must say that Ross has Wolfe's number here.

Oh, and John, the primary reason to consider Nazism and fascism as right-wing movements is that they considered themselves to be right-wing movements. Fascism grew out of a nationalist and statist strain of conservative thought that existed in European monarchies and ex-monarchies. Fascists were primarily motivated by a desire to fight Leftist labor movements, reduce foreign influences on society and reverse the "humiliation" of their countries at the hands of foreigners and domestic "traitors."

I recommend reading Robert Paxton's works on the subject if you don't believe me. Orwell's Homage to Catalonia is also a good introduction to the attitudes of the era.

As Mr. Dougherty put it above, the Fascists were not conservative (in the American sense of the word) but they were unquestionably a right-wing movement. American conservatism has a very different set of antecedents (a Constitution rather than a Crown.) A comparison between Calvin Coolidge and Hitler would be laughable. But the attitudes that drove Franco's Falangists and Mussolini Blackshirts are still unquestionably more at home on the Right than the Left.

the Western social order is founded on a common Judeo-Christian religious inheritance (a "Mere Judeo-Christianity," if you will) that undergirds our social order

Ummm ... no. Ever actually considered the social order implicit in the Levitical code (note: the important aspect of this social order is not the prohibitions on teh hawt immoral sex -- which is all the fundie Christians take from this book, nor the prohibition on shrimp scampi -- which Christianity rejects -- but the system of wealth redistribution to the poor and the landless Levites, the Sabbatical and Jubilee years, etc.)? Ever studied Talmud?

You cannot even understand the ideal social order of the ancient Hebrews, from whose culture and ideals comes Judaism without reference to the Levitical Code. And you cannot understand Judaism without some understanding the Talmud (even to understand reactions against Talmudic Judaism, such as the Karaite movement, you need to understand the Talmud). I would even argue that a full appreciation of what Jesus appearantly said, even as it comes down to us in the Gospels, you need to understand the Jewish mindset that Jesus in turns adopts, takes to extremes and rejects.

It is true that much of our modern, commercial legislation (the rules and regulations of the marketplace, laws regarding truth in business, etc) is exactly in line with the Jewish tradition. But many of these laws were fought tooth and nail by "free market" conservatives to whom any form of regulation or consumer protection was/is a serious breach of liberty.

And anyway, it is more likely that the resemblence of American commercial law to whatever conclusions can be reached from the convoluted casuistry of Baba Metzia is due to the fact that there may very well be only one way to run any reasonably complex economy than due to any direct lifting of American law from Jewish law (although, I'd love to think there was such a lifting as a matter of my own maniacal ethnocentrism). Because, in particular, there are many consumer protections, etc., Talmudic law grants that even the most moonbatty of liberals doesn't want to introduce here. E.g., who wants to prohibit "price fraud" as the Bible and Talmud understand it. Who wants to have "fences" around our laws?

More generally, Talmudic law is based on an organic notion of society that would frighten the sorts of conservatives who trumpet "Judeo-Christian morality": we have obligations and duties to each other and to society. A John Randolph, who wanted to live in perfect liberty with no obligations to his society nor even to his slaves, would be condemned by Jewish law, not celebrated as a role model. And, btw, the point is not that quoting favorably some or other idea voiced by a slave-holder makes you a racist (that would be McCarthyism, eh?) but that the very lifestyle of Randolph that certain conservatives champion necessitated exploitation, so to hold such a life-style as an ideal of liberty is to celebrate a racist, exploitative system.

So, you cannot say you are supportive of a Western social order founded on "Judeo-Christianity" and then go on and hold someone whose lifestyle goes against the grain of the social order expounded by Judaism, and by Jesus if not Christendom -- it just doesn't add up.

The irony is that Kirk is less of an influence on most political conservatives than ever before. Wolfe's sneering tone and ignorant assertions prevented him from offering criticisms most on the right today would agree with. - Kevin Holtsberry

FWIW, I don't think Wolfe's intended audience is the right, nor is he looking to agreement from them. It seems to me Wolfe was addressing some of us on the left (including at times people like myself) who, in the interest of political eceumenicism, are seeking conservative "intellectual ancestors" and (paleo-)conservative allies in an effort to build a coalition opposing the kind of reactionary politics that passes for conservatism nowadays. Wolfe is trying to remind us that, even if we find Kirkian conservatives to be tactical allies, they are a very different political species than we moonbats, and we ought to keep our alliances ad hoc and not to drink their kool-aid.

Many on the left (e.g. me, as if I count for anything) have expressed concern that our country nowadays lacks real conservative voices. For instance, it was amazing how, rhetorically, the march to war in Iraq was driven by "liberal" arguments. A conservative making a conservative argument would probably have done more to stop the march to war than all us dirty hippies could have. It's important to have people who push for progressive change ... but it's also important to have people who are leary of change and to keep us progressives from throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Alas, the political debate in this country shuts out both of those necessary components -- anybody to the left of The Elite Media Consensus is shut out as a moonbat dirty hippy and any real conservative is ignored.

Thus, there is a tempation among us liberals to find common cause with Kirkians and similar conservatives. However, even as we liberals do find common cause with such people, we would do well to remember what that kind of conservatism is really about.

I think that's the intended purpose of Wolfe's essay, isn't it?

the Western social order is founded on a common Judeo-Christian religious inheritance (a "Mere Judeo-Christianity," if you will) that undergirds our social order

Ummm ... no. Ever actually considered the social order implicit in the Levitical code (note: the important aspect of this social order is not the prohibitions on teh hawt immoral sex -- which is all the fundie Christians take from this book, nor the prohibition on shrimp scampi -- which Christianity rejects -- but the system of wealth redistribution to the poor and the landless Levites, the Sabbatical and Jubilee years, etc.)? Ever studied Talmud?

You cannot even understand the ideal social order of the ancient Hebrews, from whose culture and ideals comes Judaism without reference to the Levitical Code. And you cannot understand Judaism without some understanding the Talmud (even to understand reactions against Talmudic Judaism, such as the Karaite movement, you need to understand the Talmud). I would even argue that a full appreciation of what Jesus appearantly said, even as it comes down to us in the Gospels, you need to understand the Jewish mindset that Jesus in turns adopts, takes to extremes and rejects.

It is true that much of our modern, commercial legislation (the rules and regulations of the marketplace, laws regarding truth in business, etc) is exactly in line with the Jewish tradition. But many of these laws were fought tooth and nail by "free market" conservatives to whom any form of regulation or consumer protection was/is a serious breach of liberty.

And anyway, it is more likely that the resemblence of American commercial law to whatever conclusions can be reached from the convoluted casuistry of Baba Metzia is due to the fact that there may very well be only one way to run any reasonably complex economy than due to any direct lifting of American law from Jewish law (although, I'd love to think there was such a lifting as a matter of my own maniacal ethnocentrism). Because, in particular, there are many consumer protections, etc., Talmudic law grants that even the most moonbatty of liberals doesn't want to introduce here. E.g., who wants to prohibit "price fraud" as the Bible and Talmud understand it. Who wants to have "fences" around our laws?

More generally, Talmudic law is based on an organic notion of society that would frighten the sorts of conservatives who trumpet "Judeo-Christian morality": we have obligations and duties to each other and to society. A John Randolph, who wanted to live in perfect liberty with no obligations to his society nor even to his slaves, would be condemned by Jewish law, not celebrated as a role model. And, btw, the point is not that quoting favorably some or other idea voiced by a slave-holder makes you a racist (that would be McCarthyism, eh?) but that the very lifestyle of Randolph that certain conservatives champion necessitated exploitation, so to hold such a life-style as an ideal of liberty is to celebrate a racist, exploitative system.

So, you cannot say you are supportive of a Western social order founded on "Judeo-Christianity" and then go on and hold someone whose lifestyle goes against the grain of the social order expounded by Judaism, and by Jesus if not Christendom -- it just doesn't add up.

Posted by DAS | July 10, 2007 4:34 PM


Yes, "fundies"(useing pejoritives might be something a Jew of all people might reconsider) forbid fornication but accept shrimp scampi-because they regard the later as a command specifically given to Jews while the former is. "Fundies" also think idolatry, murder, perjury, dishonoring parents, among other things are wrong.
As for whether conservatives would be horrified at a society that lives under the Mosaic law that is as meaningful as whether they would be horrified at living in Ancient Athens. And one might note that saying that someone is not incapable of having virtues even though he owned slaves is not the same as condoning slavery. For people who boast of their "nuance", liberals are often remarkably simplistic.

Yes, "fundies"(useing pejoritives might be something a Jew of all people might reconsider) forbid fornication but accept shrimp scampi-because they regard the later as a command specifically given to Jews while the former is to all. "Fundies" also think idolatry, murder, perjury, dishonoring parents, among other things are wrong.
As for whether conservatives would be horrified at a society that lives under the Mosaic law that is as meaningful as whether they would be horrified at living in Ancient Athens. And one might note that saying that someone is not incapable of having virtues even though he owned slaves is not the same as condoning slavery. For people who boast of their "nuance", liberals are often remarkably simplistic.

Posted by jason taylor | July 10, 2007 5:41 PM

Perhaps you are right DAS, but then Wolfe could have found much in Kirk's thought that would be attractive to a certain strain of the left (Gerald Russello, for example, has a new book out that discuss Kirk's "Postmodern Immagination") - hence the the dislike by segments of the right - but he just can't get over the fact that Kirk was eccentric, and anti-modern, and interested in thinkers who were tainted by slavery, etc.

Something intelligent even if I disagreed with it would have been preferable to what he wrote.

the point is not that quoting favorably some or other idea voiced by a slave-holder makes you a racist (that would be McCarthyism, eh?) but that the very lifestyle of Randolph that certain conservatives champion necessitated exploitation, so to hold such a life-style as an ideal of liberty is to celebrate a racist, exploitative system.

So you're celebrating racism, but not a racist. How comforting to be so consoled.

And I fail to see how living an individualist planter ethos, which seems to be the real intent of Kirk's woolgathering re:Randolph, "necessitates"
exploitation. Human slavery is certainly exploitative, but is all labor, by definition?

As to the idea that Randolph wanted no obligations to larger society, surely you can see that having obligations that one's conscience and society's mores urge one to accept are of a different order than obligations dictated by the political process? Do you really think that modern conservatives are opposed to the former?

Kevin:
Meyer wasn't a conservative - at least not a conservative in the philosophical sense. He may have found an audience amongst conservatives (Buckley) but he was pretty clearly a libertarian when it came to first principles (individualism; rights; etc.), which is what Wolfe is talking about.

"And one might note that saying that someone is not incapable of having virtues even though he owned slaves is not the same as condoning slavery."

Not to defend Wolfe's article, which I think Ross cut down to size rather well, but I don't think Wolfe is saying slaveholders were incapable of having virtues. He's suggesting that there's something a bit creepy about Kirk's opinion that Randolph and Calhoun were the most admirable political thinkers of their era. There's a willingness in Kirk's writings to simply consider slavery to be a minor, unfortunate quirk of the noble American agrarian lifestyle, rather than a reason to question whether Randolph's lifestyle was really so great after all.

It's comparable to the common liberal criticism of William F. Buckley and Barry Goldwater, who weren't exactly segregationists, but who didn't seem to think Jim Crow laws were a big enough problem to cause them to question their support of states' rights.

Granted, Wolfe seemed to be more interested in hinting that Kirk was a bigot than in making a nuanced critique, but I think a fair criticism can be made along those lines.

The essay, which I haven't read, may well be annoying but there are a bunch of problems with the attempted rebuttals to these passages.

-The assertion that the works of Rand, Tolkein, and Kirk are totally unlike one another in kind is obtuse. Their specific plots and settings are different, but they share a complete disinterest in examining a total disinterest in understanding the world in which we actually live and prefer instead to explore made-up worlds that allow for no meaningful analogy with our own. That is the only feature of these books relevant to the discussion of conservatism. I'm not saying that Wolfe has adequately followed this argument through, but it is not implausible on its face. The right-wing current in American science fiction, from Asimov to Heinlein to Orson Scott Card, etc., is also unmistakable.

-Praising Thomas Jefferson's ideas about democracy is not the same as praising John Randolph's aristocratic, slave-owning lifestyle. Randolph was not an intellectual or even moral hero for Kirk, judging by the quoted passage, but an embodiment of an ideal way of life. That he could believe this without noting that that way of life depended on slavery is a legitimate and rather damning criticism, not "playing the race card" (and besides, it is very hard to take anyone who talks about "the race card" seriously at all).

-Someone above already pointed out the problem with patronizingly talking about the "Judeo-Christian" inheritance. This isn't really a huge flaw in Kirk's thinking, as far as I can see, but I basically agree with the criticism.

-On the perfectibility of human nature--first, when conservatives accuse leftists of believing in this perfectibility they are arguing with a 50 year old leftism, not any important leftist thought that exists now. So in a way it is a waste of time to address the criticism, but it is worth noting that anyone who cannot distinguish morally between a utopianism predicated on the idea that some people should be allowed to share in the human future and others, by virtue of their birth, should not, from a utopianism whose error is essentially one of overreaching, is profoundly dangerous or stupid.

It should also be pointed out that often when modern conservatives accuse liberals of believing in the "perfectibility of human nature" they are really referring to liberals' belief that the present social and material condition of humans can be improved.

More broadly, opposing "collectivism" and "individualism" as essential characteristics of various political ideologies is really dumb. Figuring out which enterprises ought to be collective and which individual is one of the most complicated questions faced by any state. You don't pick one or the other.

"The assertion that the works of Rand, Tolkein, and Kirk are totally unlike one another in kind is obtuse. Their specific plots and settings are different, but they share a complete disinterest in examining a total disinterest in understanding the world in which we actually live and prefer instead to explore made-up worlds that allow for no meaningful analogy with our own... the right-wing current in American science fiction, from Asimov to Heinlein to Orson Scott Card, etc., is also unmistakable."

I don't have any problem with the rest of your post, BP, but you clearly understand very little about fantasy and science fiction, and you know nothing whatsoever about Isaac Asimov.

jason taylor -- but would the ideal theocracy of the "fundies" observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years, which are profoundly anti-Capitalist? Would Christian conservatives ever want to legislate laws against price fraud, even as they seek to legislate laws against abortion, etc.? The point is that the so-called Judeo-Christian social viewpoint of many a conservative hardly has anything to do with Judaism.

Kevin Holtsberry -- I assume that Wolfe's motivation for getting all sneery and snippy was because some otherwise liberal folks might get tempted by the siren-song of Kirkian conservatism. Wolfe would have done well to spend more time talking about why Kirk does (and perhaps should not) appeal to liberals and why he does not appeal to many conservatives rather than on trying to use cheap rhetorical tricks to make us liberals uncomfortable with Kirk. It would have made us both happier ;)

Andrew -- my point about McCarthyism was that it is a form of intellectual guilt by association (bordering on an ad hominem attack) similar to the guilt by association techniques used by McCarthy to say "Thomas Jefferson had slaves. He also liked religious liberty. Therefore, supporters of religious liberty are racist". Let's call it "but Hitler was a vegitarian, therefore animal lovers are Nazis" (b'Hwavtalan) argument. People are claiming that Wolfe has made a b'Hwavtalan argument in regards to Kirk's appreciation of Randolph and Calhoun (in general, the right has become very good at spotting b'Hwavtalan arguments albeit with a high false positive rate, although liberals would argue this is a case of projection). As LaFollette Progressive and BP have pointed out clearer than I, Wolfe was not engaging in a b'Hwavtalan argument, but pointing out something rather fundamental about those who are rather whistful for a certain kind of past ...

BP:

"More broadly, opposing "collectivism" and "individualism" as essential characteristics of various political ideologies is really dumb. Figuring out which enterprises ought to be collective and which individual is one of the most complicated questions faced by any state. You don't pick one or the other."

I suppose this was directed at me, and I admit I typed my comment in haste. As I'm not inclined to spend a lot of time on this, I'll just note that my comment was narrowly directed at the common fallacy that Fascism and Nazism represents the extreme of conservative thought in the way the Communism DOES represent the extreme of liberal thought.

I'm not sure what "opposing 'collectivism' and 'individualism' as essential characteristics of various political ideologies" even means, so if I have to plead "really dumb," so be it.

- Alaska Jack

Wow. Thanks for answering my question. I guess my view was that yes, Anglo-American right-wing movements are very different from continental fascists-- namely, continental fascists are far to the right of them. There's something self-indulgent and tone deaf about the view expressed repeatedly above, and it seems to encourage a sort of fanciful vision of fascism. Fascism doesn't call for a "complete transformation of the established social order," though it often calls for a more severe marginalisation of already despised classes; it's economics are not "socialist"-- it often favors private ownership of the means of production; it's religion need not be "pagan (?)"-- remember Islamofascism?

Alaska Jack--

I read the very long comment thread quickly and didn't put any names to particular ideas; I sort of though that the collectivism vs. individualism had come up from a few people, and it's a pretty common thing to hear in general. I didn't mean to target you as "really dumb."

I actually agree that Nazi=far right/Communism=far left is not useful. What I was trying to say, badly, is that I reject the idea you hear from libertarians/Ayn Rand readers/Friedrich Hayek that Communism and Nazism were the same because they were collectivist, and capitalism is the opposite because it is individualist. This is not useful because any sane society is going to agree that certain enterprises should be collective and others individual.

LaFollette Progressive: My comment was too hasty. I was talking about a certain thread I've noticed in some science fiction and fantasy, not all of it. I will defer to you on any statements about the genres as a whole. I do think there is something to be said for a conservative streak in Asimov, but upon reflection his writing that I've read (Foundation series, a long time ago, and some robot books), is not conservative at all, so I take that part back.

Alan Wolfe hates Christianity.

This is the key to understanding his writings.

He may be a number of other things--academically pedigreed, a good or bad writer, an accomplished sociologist, whatever--but the fundamental impulse which drives all his writings is that he detests Christian faith. I hate to put it so sharply, but it is true. And this aligns him well with the New Republic generally.

Jason Taylor said:
Yes, "fundies"(useing pejoritives might be something a Jew of all people might reconsider) forbid fornication but accept shrimp scampi-because they regard the later as a command specifically given to Jews while the former is. "Fundies" also think idolatry, murder, perjury, dishonoring parents, among other things are wrong.

Actually, many Christians distinguish between three types of Old Testament law: ceremonial, moral, and civil. In the reformed tradition, the moral laws are still applicable (though not the punishments outlined), but the ceremonial and civil are not. And the outline for the moral code is found in the Ten Commandments (and further refined in the New Testament). Certainly, some Christians open Leviticus and use a random to say this or that is immoral in the eyes of God, but that doesn't mean it's Scripturally correct and theologically rigid.

There is also a distinction made between

DAS,

The "Judeo-Christian religious inheritence" is a lot more than simply the Levitical code. I suggest you run out and immediately purchase Leon Kass' book "The Beginning of Wisdom: Reading Genesis" for an intellectual introduction to one reading of this inheritence. Another good place to start would be the Puritans, particularly my favorite, Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". Also, to attack Randolph and the agrarians as folks who "wanted to live in perfect liberty" is so out of whack with what these folks actually thought and how they understood the world (e.g. they were fond of talking about organic notions of society) that I can only wonder what you have been reading about the paleos or how you have come to such a distorted understanding. Perhaps it was the shrimp?

DAS: "...they are a very different political species than we moonbats, and we ought to keep our alliances ad hoc and not to drink their kool-aid."

Agreed.

However, my experience with my friends and relatives on the left is that they have never refused my beer.

I admit that I tried to read Kirk and failed. He was almost making sense (as a conservative at least) and then he had to bring religion into his argument. I have to admit that I am not the most sympathetic person in regards to religion but I am most unsympathetic when it is aristocratic conservatives talking about the greatness of usually christian religion. This might be alright from a political thinker in a religious state, such as Iran or the Vatican, but in a country that is based firmly on the anti-clerical foundation of the enlightenment using religion as anything more than an intensifier or metaphor in a piece of political thought seems precious at best and basically reduces the author to a state of crankitude.

I am most unsympathetic when it is aristocratic conservatives talking about the greatness of usually christian religion. This might be alright from a political thinker in a religious state, such as Iran or the Vatican, but in a country that is based firmly on the anti-clerical foundation of the enlightenment

I think you have confounded George Washington with Robespierre.

For the record, 13 of the 16 colonies of British North America had at least nominal religious establishments for decades after their founding, and Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay were founded for expressly religious reasons. Most of the establishments were dismantled during the last quarter of the eighteenth century but several were maintained into the 1830s. The religion clauses found not in the Constitution proper but in an amendment adopted in 1791 constitute a useful compromise in a country consisting of a jumble of territories for which the modal confession was variously Calvinist, anabaptist, or Anglican. The society over which these institutions sat was not anticlerical then and has not been since.

using religion as anything more than an intensifier or metaphor in a piece of political thought seems precious at best and basically reduces the author to a state of crankitude.

Heal thyself.

Actually, Kirk was far from viewing the Israelites as a mere tribal predecessor of Christianity. He well understood that by extraordinary perception they were the first of the ancient peoples to make The "leap of being" from tribal paganism to monotheism., though it took centuries beyond Levitical law to fully work this out.

His chapter, "The law and the Prophets" in Roots of American Order remarks ...American political theory and American instititutions, and American order, cannot be understood or well maintained without repairing to the law and prophets While, as Ross writes, this is a bit windy or arch for modern taste, there is much truth in the stuff.

Peter - I don't see how Kirk's "tribal interpretation" of Judaism and his simultaneous respect for its monotheistic originality are mutually exclusive. Look at his view of Israel.

I don't hold much interest in Kirk...that line of Agrarian conservativism doesn't do it for me....and it did tend to whitewash slavery and segregation....

but I thought Douthat's response was excellent. to respond to one poster:

"-- No Jews want to be a part of this "Judeo-Christian" ethic wherein they are the instrumental means to the goal of Christianity. If you're a Christian be a Christian - don't try to present yourself as also being a part of some grand synthetic tradition (that just happens to culminate in Christ). Wolfe's point is that since Kirk thought such a tradition existed - while simultaneously disparaging Judaism ("too tribal", too ideological) - he is a sloppy thinker."

um, this is a standard tenet of orthodox Christianity (small "o"). its a Pauline doctrine that Judaism was a stage which reached its fulfillment in Christianity. regardless of the accuracy or offensiveness of this belief, its been a Christian tenet for 2000 years. Douthat is right...to ask Kirk not to believe this is to ask him not to be a Christian.

"- Bad news: Schmitt had a huge impact on Strauss who had a huge impact on moder Conservatism. No conspiracy theories - it doesn't mean you're a Nazi - but that is just a fact. (The same goes for liberals via Heidegger.)"

all three of these statements are almost completely false. stop reading Shadia Drury. seriously.
(I wish Strauss actually influenced modern conservativism...) its like saying Habermas has had a huge impact on modern conservatism.

one other poster started to note this, but:

A. the theocratic element in American fundamentalism is very very small. Baptists (who espouse separation of church and state as a fundamental doctrine...albeit not defined as broadly as say the People for the American Way would) are the largest body within American fundamentalism. most other groups also oppose theocracy.

B. most American fundamentalists are dispensationalists. they don't believe that the Levitical rules apply to Christians....unless those laws have been reiterated in the New Testament. however, neither are most of them Marcionites.

Kirk's view of Israel is the mistaken one that modern Israel unduly influenced the mainly Jewish neo-cons who have involved the U.S. in unnecessary conflict with the Middle East. This view has really nothing to do with his respect for the major contribution of advanced Jewish law and the prophets to western civilization.

Another good place to start would be the Puritans, particularly my favorite, Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". - Jeff Singer

I'm not familiar with the particular work of Kass you suggest, but am familiar with a lot of the Puritans' work. But the Puritan tradition, while much of it differs from Jewish thought (in particular, Judaism doesn't believe in the five points of Calvinism), is not quite the "Judeo-Christian" tradition to which Kirk refers, is it? The Puritans very much had a sense of reciprocal obligations, enforceable by civil law, that also occurs in the Jewish tradition, but not so much in the American tradition. So if the Puritan/Talmudic tradition is the Judeo-Christian tradition, how should our system of laws be Judeo-Christian, especially as far as limitted government conservative types are concerned?

Christians distinguish between three types of Old Testament law: ceremonial, moral, and civil. - Brian

Jews make similar distinctions and more. Certainly whole swaths of Jewish law are not considered by Jews to be obligatory on non-Jews ... including a few of the 10 commandments (e.g., we don't expect non-Jews to observe the Sabbath ... and very few non-Jews observe the 7th Day Sabbath according to the laws of Judaism).

But the point then is, how can a tradition claim to be "Judeo-Christian" and ignore so much of the Jewish law. It's perfectly fair (c.f. Nathan) for Christians to view Judaism as a precurser to their religion. But to say they follow a "Judeo-Christian" tradition and then so deeply ignore the Judeo-part is a bit insulting. Either say "we follow the Christian tradition and view the Hebraic tradition as a principal antecedent" (also, many important aspects of the Jewish tradition do not antedate Christianity -- e.g., the Mishna was compiled at the same time the New Testament was cannonized) or actually make a nod to the Judeo-part.

Because, in particular, even if many of the "ceremonial" and "civil" laws of Leviticus don't apply outside of the theocracy of a truly established state of Israel under Davidic leadership (and hence even we Jews ignore them in practice -- and the current state of Israel is not the proper state of Israel for such a theocracy to be re-established as the Messiah has not yet come), Leviticus, and its principles as they can be applied in the Diaspora (the laws of the first fruits, societies offering interest free loans, the laws against price fraud) at least among the Jewish community are still fundamental components of Jewish law. And even if we Jews don't expect non-Jews to follow such laws, if people are going to claim any mantle of Judeo-X tradition, they ought to at least make some nod to the idea that it can be a law, e.g., that you cannot charge more than 20% above or below market price or that mortgages must be written up according to the formalism of the Heter Iskra agreement rather than as loans.

And yet the American conservative, even Kirk AFAIK, tradition would declare such legal intervention to be un-acceptable interference in the marketplace. Yet, how could it be that the "Judeo-Christian" tradition not recommend such interference?

Baptists (who espouse separation of church and state as a fundamental doctrine...albeit not defined as broadly as say the People for the American Way would) - Nathan

The Baptists have always opposed an established church (so did Kirk, AFAIK) per se. But "fundamentalist" Baptists (many Baptists disagree with these positions, BTW) today are keen (as have been many conservatives) for legislation to favor certain classes of religious viewpoints variously labeled as "Judeo-Christian" (but somehow ignoring the Judeo part of that phrase). In particular, they do want to proscribe various behaviors (at least not grant such behaviors equal footing with similar behaviors) for which the only reason for the discrimination or even proscription is given by a particular interpretation of specific Biblical verses.

While some have claimed that the intent of the 1st ammendment was merely that there could be no law saying something of the sort of "the USA is a Church of God and Saints of Christ country", this sort of narrow reading leads one to ask: "nu? what defines 'a religion' vs. 'religion'?". By establishing laws according to a view that a certain religious tradition is normative, this amounts to a de facto establishment of religion.
That no individual Church is established is neither here nor there as what is an individual church is always a matter of definition anyway (is the Catholic Church an individual church or are only specific Catholic churches individual churches?): so long as one agitates for legislation with no basis outside of a peculiar reading of the Bible, one is agitating for a law respecting the establishment of the religious tradition from which that reading comes.

DAS: This is the usual nonsense on stilts. That some Baptists agitate for things YOU may not imagine are possibly opposed on any basis but that of some Bible verses, or that THEY do not know a basis to oppose other than those Bible verses is true.

But that doesn't mean (A) that this is illegitimate -- the whole "public reason" debate in the end grounds on the impossibility of anyone agreeing in a philsophically coherent way on what is public reason or (B) that there aren't other reasons to oppose those things.

Which things do you think cannot be opposed except on Biblical grounds, precisely? Abortion? There are certainly secular folks who would legally discourage abortion, and arguments against it. Gay marriage / homosexuality? I think the secular arguments there are even stronger. Anyway, in the end, without some normative force (and "reason" will not work here, really), all these "reasons" come down to assertions of distaste or consequentialist arguments rooted in distaste for some outcome.

What secular arguments to oppose gay marriage that don't boil down to "gay sex is icky" or "I have to put up with my wife, so why should gay men be having all the fun by not even having to deal with womenfolk" and such?

There are secular arguments to oppose certain late term abortions (although this is a red herring somewhat as most late term abortions are done for health reasons so that it's really hard to oppose them on secular grounds without coming off as someone who doesn't give a whit about the health of pregnant women), but what secular reason is there to oppose the destruction of some clump of cells that is an embryo? I can give you religious reasons from my particular branch of the "Judeo-Christian" tradition, but if you accept those reasons, it's hard not also to accept a certain degree of government intervention, e.g. in terms of property rights, that few of the types who are anti-choice (whether secularly or religiously so) are willing to accept.

And consequentialist arguments are bad how? If you have a distaste for a certain outcome, then you have a distaste for a certain outcome that can be stated secularly. But when the argument boils down to squeemishness or "the Bible says so", then that's not a secular argument, is it? I would disagree with your point A, then ... it is illegitimate to force others to follow your particular morality without a good consequentialist or similar argument. After all, how would y'all feel if my branch of the Judeo-Christian tradition decided to agitate for a ban on eating blood sausage?

DAS,

You can't use pure logic to get to the Roe trimester framework. That isn't a criticism -- you can't use pure logic to get to any normative views at all. As far as science is concerned, you are also just a clump of cells. We may want to draw a line somewhere, but wherever we draw it, we don't do so because science or logic made us.

Consequentialism is no more secular than deontology.

There is a perfectly respectable meta-ethical position that all moral argument boils down to squeemishness.

There is a perfectly respectable meta-ethical position that all moral argument boils down to squeemishness. - Pithlord

I'm not as familiar as I should be with the writings of Kass, but that's how he comes off to many of us based on the pronouncements you hear by him in the media (which admittedly is not a good source for such things).

Anyway, I do not deny your claim that science and logic are insufficient to develop a system of ethics, morals or laws ... am no scienticist a la Dennett, et al. While logic can help flush out moral, legal and ethical views, certainly one needs certain axioms of morality, law or what not with which to begin.

The question is, from where do we get those axioms? For a theist like myself, in the case of morality, those axioms are God-given and, if the term "Judeo-Christian tradition" is to have any meaning, these axioms are at the root of that tradition. Except, do we as a society really want to base our legal system on those axioms? And which set from which "Judeo-Christian tradition"?

I reckon a thorough-going conservative would not be too happy if my branch of that tradition were to get into power and say "blood sausage is illegal" or "all contracts for the sale of goods having a well-defined market value for amounts +/- 20% or more different from the market value are legally un-enforceable". So why should we accept legislation based on similarly peculiar (supposedly) Biblically derived principles?

That there are more Christians in this country than Jews shouldn't be the reason ... after all, the majority has no right to force their religious beliefs on the minority -- that is a violation of liberty, is it not?

I agree with you on the insufficiency of logic. You do need axioms from which to start. But which axioms? To appeal to some "common" Judeo-Christian tradition (which is no longer, if it ever was, the common tradition of our nation) as a source of legal axioms -- and then to not even respect all the different aspects of that tradition but to completely ignore the "Judeo" part as well as many Christian parts, but to take one version of that tradition and make it a source of laws is tantamount to establishment of a Church ... no matter how much those who are anti-establishmentarians yet want a law respecting morality in this way, try to parse it differently.

There is a common, secular and often consequentialist tradition from which we get our axioms for law making. That, at some level, we're pulling from a "tradition", doesn't make it less than secular. Just because we have some vague, heterogeneous source of axioms doesn't mean that source is Christianity and hence we should legislate a particular form of "Christian morality". To make that leap is to make as much of a leap of logic as they did in the Age of Reason when they tried to "prove" normative judgments and religiously flavored metaphysics using pure logic.


The terms "left" and "right wing" have become meaningless and almost irrelevant in today's
world. They were terms employed by communist statists during W.W.II to create a false either/or alternative in people's minds. Communism being right and good and the other, nazism being wrong and bad. They were in fact opposite sides of the same socialist coin.

Once, the term liberal (L) meant freedom from dictatorial monarchs and government intervention into the lives and economy of a nation's people. Today, the term liberal has been hijacked by the statists to mean the opposite.

Freedom, individualism and laissez-faire (leave alone) capitalism, stand head and shoulders above all forms of statism in the production of wealth and quality of life.

Frederick Bastiat (1801-1850), a classical Liberal, sat on the left in the French parliament against the dictatorially conservative monarchs.

Are you confused ? I hope not.

In an age when best-selling conservative authors advocate for the internment of Muslims and the Attorney General argues that the president shouldn't be bound by laws which, by their very design, were intended to apply expressly to the executive branch (e.g., FISA), is it really still forbidden to compare a certain strain of American conservatism to fascism? Certainly no one should say that Bush is a new Hitler, but the belligerent, controlling, unaccountable nature of his administration does seem to mirror the tenets of fascism.

Thank you, Mr. Douthat.

1. I knew Russell Kirk. He was a friend worth having. He was a good counter-philosophe to the philosophes of mid-20th-century American liberalism. I don't know that he claimed mastery of the sources of wisdom to which he attempted to direct people.

2. Communists always call me a fascist.

3. European rightist movements and thinkers are hard for Anglo-Saxons to understand. First step: learn a foreign language.

4. I don't know that Leo Strauss influenced anyone other than his own disciples and members of the Kristol family--and that has been sufficient.

5. The New Republic publishes clever pieces as well as howlers. Wolfe reminds me of the autistic atheist in the high school cafeteria who would never shut up.

Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

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