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Beauchamp and Libby

11 Aug 2007 12:07 pm

First, a correction: I suggested that the appearance of Scott Thomas Beauchamp's "Baghdad Diarist" was "a case of a magazine giving a break to a young writer ... because the young writer's likeable wife asked them to," but I am reliably informed that Beauchamp and his future wife were only acquaintances when she mentioned him to TNR's editors.

Second, TNR has posted another update, in which they write that the Army, by restricting access to Beauchamp and refusing to share any of the details of its own investigation, has thrown up a wall to further inquiry. TNR's critics, needless to say, aren't buying.

At this point, the Beauchamp story is beginning to bear more than a passing resemblance to the Libby affair. Both are Iraq War-related controversies in which the underlying accusation (perjury in a case where no criminal charges were filed, embellishment or fabulism in a back-page TNR Diarist) is less significant than what the alleged crime is supposed to represent: In Libby's case, the "Bush lied, people died" theory of the war; in the Beauchamp affair, the belief that the press is actively undermining the American mission in Iraq. And in each instance, not only the interpretation but the facts of the case seem to shift depending on whose account you read. I hope that we'll reach a point with the Beauchamp case where at least the facts will be agreed upon, but I wouldn't bet on it; barring a public, obviously uncoerced recantation from Beauchamp himself (or his corroborating witnesses), or a military investigation that vindicates his claims, it seems more likely to end, like the Libby affair before it, as a matter of whom you believe, and why.

Comments (67)

the Beauchamp story is beginning to bear more than a passing resemblance to the Libby affair.

Are you arguing that they're similar in overall importance? Or in ideologically colored reactions? The latter I can see, the former not so much.

Scooter Libby was part of a government effort to score political points by leaking classified information. He hoped that info reflected negatively on someone who pointed out, accurately, the the decision to go to war was not based on the most sober and careful assessment of intelligence, but rather the most inflammatory bits of data available, regardless of reliability.

The Beauchamp affair is about a little-read article in a little-read magazine, that has no larger bearing on anything in particular. (It's strange that the same people who insist "the gloves must come off" and that "bad things happen in war, as in at abu Gharib, there's no sense getting all bent out of shape about it" are so adamant that this tale of cruelty, with no particular larger meaning other than that war can be dehumanizing, is politically incorrect).

"barring a public, obviously uncoerced recantation from Beauchamp himself "

The Freepers and the Malkinites can't wait - they're all over the net claiming that the recantation has already happened.

I feel sorry for Beauchamp - stuck in the middle of Iraq and left to the tender mercies of a military which is more politically driven each day. Good luck to him... and to all of the troops the cons do not support.

I think there is some sort of word here for this sort of thing?

Maybe, moral equivalence? That's a phrase, bug close enough.

Scooter = Beauchamp

No underlying crime...check
Imperfect Memory...check
Wingnuts howling for blood...check

What is interesting about Beauchamp is that there are several verifiable claims which he has made. So far, on the one claim which has been checked and agreed to - Iraq v Kuwait - Beauchamp got it wrong.

On the claim that you can, repeatedly, run over dogs with Bradley fighting vehicles, the TNR fact checker asked the Bradley flack "if you could run over a dog with a Bradley" without providing the actual claim Beauchamp made; a blogger gave the same guy Beauchamp's statement and the flack suggested it was nearly impossible to do.

The worst part of the TNR response has been that they have not realized that they are dealing with people who actually served in Iraq. Calling them chickenhawks or suggesting ideological motivations is just digging TNR in deeper. Similarly, blaming the Army, while it may play to the anti-War left ready and willing to hear any slag against the military, while refusing to make their own sources public is killing TNR.

Beauchamp's story is being trashed particular by particular and the longer TNR "stands by their story" the worse the outcome for the magazine. It is past time to burn Beauchamp as badly as he burned his witless, and rather careless, editors.

Scooter vs. Scott

Sorry, Scott Beauchamp probably made up a few whoppers but committed no crime at all. Scooter Libby lied repeatedly under oath and obstructed justice, actions that eliminated the possibility of identifying an "underlying crime." Every aspect of Libby's prosecution was under the control of Republicans, none of whom seemed to regard him as a "victim." Yet the sentence passed on him by a Republican judge was annulled by President Bush. All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others, particularly those who work for President Bush.

Jay Currie writes: "The worst part of the TNR response has been that they have not realized that they are dealing with people who actually served in Iraq. Calling them chickenhawks or suggesting ideological motivations is just digging TNR in deeper."

Have any of the cons here actually read TNR, ever? NEWSFLASH - TNR hawked this war HARD, and they're not looking for withdrawal.

When did Michelle Malkin, AceOfScapegoats, Hugh Hewitt, or any of their ilk serve in Iraq? Scott Beauchamp, on the other hand, is serving there right now - and the rabid Bush-foamers are trying to rip him a new one due to some perceived "disrespect."

This affair is pointing how how deranged the 25%-ers are.

Sorry, last sentence should read "This affair is pointing how how deranged the 25%-ers are."

I feel sorry for Beauchamp...

I'm assuming you believe he cruelly mocked a disfigured woman (before he got to Iraq, which was originally the stated reason why he did it). Yeah, poor guy.

Can someone explain how one could arrive at "the belief that the press is actively undermining the American mission in Iraq"? It's pretty obvious that the war effort operates independent of public opinion, whether pro- or anti-war. In what way could the press undermine the mission? I'm assuming nobody at TNR is building IEDs between editorial meetings.

Alan V.,

Oddly enough, STB alleges that he did commit crimes. The Army has, for now, found no basis for crimes because he made his stories up.

Jim Treacher quotes and writes: " I feel sorry for Beauchamp...

I'm assuming you believe he cruelly mocked a disfigured woman (before he got to Iraq, which was originally the stated reason why he did it). Yeah, poor guy."

I think people under protracted stress often behave in strange and repulsive ways. For instance, after 9/11 cons became so frightened that they trashed the Constitution and started supporting torture and the murder of civilians.

Poor cons. At least Beauchamp has the sense to know his behavior was wrong. Most cons still insist they were right - not only that, but many of them are salivating at the chance to play stupid again in Iran.

Old Dad writes: "Oddly enough, STB alleges that he did commit crimes. The Army has, for now, found no basis for crimes because he made his stories up."

Since the Army considers a few months to be a fit sentence for murder, what would Beauchamp's "crimes" get him? A parking ticket? A spanking? A time out?

Scooter Libby lied repeatedly under oath and obstructed justice, actions that eliminated the possibility of identifying an "underlying crime."

1) There was no underlying crime. If there was, Richard Armitage would have been charged with it, since he was the first person to give Plame's name to the press.

2) The only evidence that we have that Libby lied is the fact that his testimony differed from Tim Russert's. Apparently that was sufficient for the jury. It's hardly ironclad proof that Libby was covering anything up.

Can someone explain how one could arrive at "the belief that the press is actively undermining the American mission in Iraq"? It's pretty obvious that the war effort operates independent of public opinion, whether pro- or anti-war.

If public opinion shifts strongly enough against the war, then we will withdraw, in whole or in part, from Iraq. For those of us who think that such a withdrawl will have severe negative consequences, the steady negative drumbeat about Iraq in the media is "actively undermining the American mission in Iraq".

More generally, in militarily asymmetric conflicts against enemies like al Qaeda and various insurgents/militias in Iraq, propaganda is the enemy's most potent weapon. In fact, it is their primary weapon: bombing civilians obviously does nothing to damage our military capacity. But it does present vivid images to the press that imply that things are out of control in Iraq, without providing any deeper information or context. al Qaeda, and Iraqis, can read CNN headlines and quote from Harry Reid that "the war is lost" as well as the American public.

Mike S, Iraqis don't need to monitor our media to see that the war is lost. All they need to do is wake up in the morning and see the messy abortion thoughtless American actions have turned their country into, with no end in sight.

Where does your endless faith in Bush and Cheney come from? They've done nothing to earn it. Have you at long last, sir, no sense of reality?

There isn't some insidious conspiracy within the media to report that the war is going badly. The "steady negative drumbeat about Iraq in the media" is the result of a steady stream of actual bad news from Iraq. If the war were going swimmingly, public opinion--informed by the myriad generally honest, well-intentioned news outlets--would reflect that.

Well, bt, but that's the conservative mentality at work. Any fact or argument that they don't like is not going to be reported in the right-wing media. Also, they fantasize that the portion of the media that aspires to accuracy hates conservatives. So they can stigmatize any unfavorable fact or argument as politically incorrect, and therefore not worth engaging.

So, the war in Iraq is going swimmingly. It didn't cost any money, there's a stable democracy there, the insurgency is in its last throes, etc. Or whatever the party line du jour is.

Of course, Elvis. And those millions of Iraqis streaming out of their "liberated" country? They're just enjoying vacations.

Yo, Scott, call home.

confederate yankee

We'd just love to hear from you. No, really, the IED babe was hot. Dead dogs, cool. But, as Andy says, dish, baby, dish. 'Cause making fun of the mutilated is way cool. So call,

Beauchamp told the truth to TNR just like the TANG documents that Dan Rather dug up were genuine.

What Mr. Douthat omits from his comparison is the fact that in all likelihood Scott Thomas Beauchamp nor any other American ever goes to Iraq without scooter Libby's willing complicity in the Bush administration's subversion of the Constitution and deliberate undermining of our Democratic Republic. If Mr. Libby had done what any true American patriot would have done in his situation, expose the treasonous dogs who colluded with the president to undermine the sovereignty of the American people, then there would have been no need for him to lie under oath and subsequently Shock Troops is never written.

I think a more apt comparison would be between are sitting president and this young soldier, with the important difference between Beauchamp and George W. Bush being that the president is a proven liar, with a mountain of evidence to stacked against the fairy tales he continues to tell the American people, while Scott Thomas Beauchamp gave us some personal accounts which to date, no one, not one enlisted soldier, not one noncom, nor any commissioned officer who was in a position to have personal knowledge of these events, has stepped forward and asserted that these accounts were fabrications or exaggerations, not one. The army has supposedly released a PR statement alleging that Beauchamp's accounts can't be corroborated, the results of an investigation which no objective third party has evaluated, but that certainly isn't evidence.

Anyone who's read Beauchamp's stories knows that they certainly aren't flattering to himself, they are in fact quite self-deprecating and rather damning. Not that kind of tales that most folks make up about themselves and their friends. I look forward to the day when George W. Bush has the courage to expose himself and his activities in the White House so openly, but I won't hold my breath.

I think that part of the perspective has been lost somehow, not just here, but generally. Assume Beauchamp is a nefarious liar. Assume TNR did exactly what they claim to have done, which is to check the plausibility of his stories to the extent that it was practical. The stories were first-person accounts published under a pseudonym. This is not reportage. It doesn't carry the same weight and it surely does not carry the imprimatur of the magazine's journalistic reputation the way a bylined piece by a journalist would. This is by definition, an a priori judgment, and it seems obvious to me.

So, assuming that my summary corresponds to reality, what obligation has TNR overlooked - what scandal ought to exist? As far as I can tell the only infractions have been commited by the Aces, Hewitts, and Malkins, etc... and most particularaly by the Weekly Standard, who, by now, after the painfully stupid search under every tea-cup for WMD, which as far as I can remember, they've never repudiated, should have no credibilty with anyone, exept for willfully blind fellow travelers.

http://eponym327.blogspot.com

AemJeff,

Agreed that a pseudoymous diary is different from straight reporting. We probably should assume greater subjectivity and allow more room for personal interpretation. I don't think that latitude, though, extends to observations of concrete facts. For example, we'd all find it incredible if a diarist observed the sun rising in the west.

Apparently, TNR shares this basic concern with facts as they suposedly "rigorously" fact checked the STB diaries. Of course, to believe that, one would have to adopt an unusual definition of "rigor."

The scandal, in my mind, is that TNR allowed such obvious BS to grace its pages even under the guise of a diary, and then compounded the error with a very lame cover up.

Foer et al could and should have nipped this in the bud with a simple mea culpa--"We typically grant our diarists a great deal of freedom for subjective inerpretation (blah, blah). However, in the case of "Shock Troops" we have discovered egregious errors in fact. for that we apologize (blah, blah).

Old Dad, I disagree with you about a couple of the particulars. One, I think TNR need to be taken at their word about whether the STB diaries were vetted, and the process they described, i.e. trying to determine if the events described were plausible, makes perfect sense. There was never a need for them to have done more than that. Again, this was not reportage, it was a diary. Secondly, the contention that a simple mea culpa would have stemmed the tide of recriminations seems false on its face. If that were true, there would never have been all the sturm und drang, simply because it assumes that this furor was reasonable in the first place.

An important distinction between the two issues is that Libby was convicted of perjury in a public jury trial, whereas the military has not conducted an open investigation and instead, makes selective and anonymous statements regarding Beauchamp's story to right-wing propagandists.

But none of this even matters, does it? The right-wingers are not concerned with the truth or falsity of the facts regarding the war; they are simply concerned with only information that supports their position and the war.

Compare these two statements.

Beauchamp: "I ran over dogs with a Bradley."

Cheney: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

I guess that's why the Weekly Standard has been calling for Cheney to resign the last four years. Geesh, this whole conversation is completely insane.

If that were true, there would never have been all the sturm und drang, simply because it assumes that this furor was reasonable in the first place.

Darn, that sentence doesn't really say what I was trying to convey... Trying again:

Your premise assumes that the furor surrounding this is reasonable and wouldn't exist if TNR hadn't somehow screwed up. The truth, I think, is that there are people who feel an ideological opposition to STB's point of view, and they've mounted an assault which has had some success, predictably resulting in a feedback loop of increasing recrimination.

Even if there were an error to admit, doing so would only lend credibilty to the notion that the pressure is working, and would just reinforce the feedback. And I strongly deny that such an error exists, for the reasons I've already stated.

It's funny that people are still recalling the affaire de Libby and conveniently forgetting that Joe Wilson was the one doing the lying.

That's not a very good omen for how the Beauchamp saga is going to be remembered.

TNR screwed up big time and then dug in when the proper thing to do would have been to dig deeper.

The fact that their coverage has such glaring holes that have been filled in not only by Goldfarb, Malkin and (sorry to deliver a fact) members of the military but also the Washington Post and The New York Times is a strong indicator that TNR did not learn it's lesson with Stephen Glass.

Good point, spookyben. It was pretty clever and sneaky for Joe Wilson to lie and manage to cover up Saddam's WMD program.

The fact that spookyben thinks Joe Wilson was the one doing the lying in the rush to war in Iraq is a very good omen for how the Bush presidency is going to be remembered.

It's a cult, and its adherents have an infinite capacity for nonsense. I firmly believe that if Barbara Bush came out tomorrow and said George W. was implanted in her womb by the Holy Ghost that the gallant 25% would believe her.

. . . the belief that the press is actively undermining the American mission in Iraq.

I never really bought that meme. I read the Beauchamp tales and I immediately knew something was not right. My BS meter went off all on its own. I did not need Ace, Hugh Hewitt, Dean Barnett or Michele Malkin to tell me.

Now many of those conservative bloggers do in fact believe the press is undermining the mission in Iraq. That is incorrect--the press lives on bad news and there just happens to be lots of it in Iraq.

What the New Republic has done since is just shameful. They screwed up and made a mistake in publishing Beauchamp, but they are actively engaging in bad faith and lies in defending their actions now.

Cons are pointing out the "shameful" lapse by TNR ONLY because they feel the articles somehow cast a shadow on our presence in Iraq, even though they're basically the only people who noticed the articles or cared about them. The media-wide acceptance that O'Hanlon and Pollack were "harsh critics of the war" when they were in fact Cheney's towel boys doesn't seem to have bothered them at all, though. Why is that?

Watching these con frenzies is like watching viagra-enhanced bonobo orgies, but the noises cons make are less intelligible.

Cheney: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Where is the evidence that anyone, anywhere, knew for a fact that Saddam did not have large WMD stockpiles?

Where is the evidence that even if we had known that fact, Saddam was not going to immediately reconstitute his WMD programs when the sanctions regime ended, including a nuclear program that had twice progressed farther than Western intelligence agencies knew.

LM&J, I only trust Bush & Cheney indirectly. I trust what I read from military bloggers and bloggers who've been to Iraq for extended periods, like Roggio & Michael Yon. I trust Petraeus. I also think that the consequences of us leaving will be long-lasting and dire, so I think that a significant degree of persistence is required. But that doesn't mean I'm irrationally wedded to staying in Iraq no matter what happens. If a genuine civil war broke out, if our military leadership indicated that they didn't think they could accomplish anything by staying, if a variety of commentators I trust indicated that the situation was beyond salvaging, I would favor getting out.

The question is, is there any scenario where you would support us staying, or where you would acknowledge that yes, our invasion of Iraq was a net positive?

Where is the evidence that even if we had known that fact, Saddam was not going to immediately reconstitute his WMD programs when the sanctions regime ended, including a nuclear program that had twice progressed farther than Western intelligence agencies knew.

Where is the evidence that he was not breeding a race of murderous, lightning-fast unicorns, in collaboration with Osama bin Laden, who would forever devastate the horse racing industry in the US?

There is none.

Just as there is no evidence that Kim Jong Il isn't doing so now. Or Sarkozy. We must invade-- faster, please.
--
The fact that it's hard to prove Cheney directly lied is hardly a ringing defense of a war justified on errant pretenses that has resulted in a catastrophe for American security and reputation-- to say nothing of the results in Iraq itself. It's a manifestation of the terrible impact of the soft bigotry of low expectations that conservatives have for each other.

AemJeff,

No doubt, much of the sound and fury is ideologically driven--from right and left.

My concern, and I think the grass roots' concern, is more basic. STB's diaries are chock full'o horse hockey. Sure, it's harder for a committed antiwar guy to see, and incredibly easy for a wing nut to see, but the facts are independent of ideology. STB made most of that crap up.

I'd like to think that I'd have the character to admit the same if a similar piece of BS came from one of my favored ungored oxen. Not sure I would.

And thanks for a civil and reasonable response.

S Mike writes: "LM&J, I only trust Bush & Cheney indirectly. I trust what I read from military bloggers and bloggers who've been to Iraq for extended periods, like Roggio & Michael Yon. I trust Petraeus. I also think that the consequences of us leaving will be long-lasting and dire, so I think that a significant degree of persistence is required. But that doesn't mean I'm irrationally wedded to staying in Iraq no matter what happens. If a genuine civil war broke out, if our military leadership indicated that they didn't think they could accomplish anything by staying, if a variety of commentators I trust indicated that the situation was beyond salvaging, I would favor getting out.

The question is, is there any scenario where you would support us staying, or where you would acknowledge that yes, our invasion of Iraq was a net positive?"

Not realistically, because there are NO truly positive signs in Iraq. NONE. You trust Petraeus? On what basis? He's been making the same "things are getting better" pronouncements for over three years now. His track record of accuracy is just as abysmal as Dick Cheney's or yours is.

When you say "commentators I trust" you've indicated that you're a cult member, since you only trust cult-member commentators who support the war.

We all know what Petraeus will say next month because he's been saying it all along. He's Bush's mouthpiece, and he wouldn't be in his current position if he was anything else.

You think the consequences of leaving will be "long-lasting and dire"? It's a damn shame you weren't thinking before the invasion took place, and you have a very odd view of causality. The primal cause of the "long-lasting and dire" consequences is the initial invasion. Take responsibility for your past mistakes. Admit you backed an administration composed of irrational halfwits. Or does being a Bush supporter mean never having to say you're sorry?

Everyone here seems to be missing the point. The real story here is about how modern technology is changing the way journalism operates. Michael Goldfarb may have issued a call to arms about the Beauchamp diaries but they were debunked by a mass of ordinary individuals. This is really the Bush ANG/you-can't-do-proportional-fonts-on-a-typewriter story all over again. A couple of observations:

1) The Internet really has sped things up. It took about a week between Goldfarb making his initial post on his blog and Beauchamp's unmasking.

2) Active duty soldiers from the same base Beauchamp is stationed at (FOB Falcon) wrote in to offer their doubts. So did civilian contractors. I'm amazed that no one else is commenting on this. When was the last war where soldiers on the front lines could participate in this kind of fact checking enterprise before, in such an instantaneous fashion?

Finally, the Weekly Standard is now reporting that Beauchamp's superiors are telling them that Beauchamp is free to contact the outside world, including media outlets like TNR. It appears that he's simply not choosing to.

Michael Goldfarb may have issued a call to arms about the Beauchamp diaries but they were debunked by a mass of ordinary individuals.

Hate to burst your bubble but there hasn't been any debunking. You did, however, have somebody with a Tonka truck claim a Bradley FV couldn't possibly run over a dog.

Of course, folks who have actually driven a bradley say otherwise.

Zug, the problem is that there has been no debunking. To debunk doesn't mean to stand up on a chair and scream "LIAR!" STB could easily have made it all up. Despite weeks of trying, nobody has managed to demonstrate that with any credibility.

JadeGold,

In fact from what I've read people who actually drive Bradley's claim the exact opposite. From Doug Coffey, Head of Communications at Land & Armaments at http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/236527.php

"I can't pretend to know what may or may not have happened in Iraq but the impression the writer leaves is that a "driver" can go on joy rides with a 35 ton vehicle at will. The vehicle has a crew and a commander of the vehicle who is in charge. In order for the scenario described to have taken place, there would have to have been collaboration by the entire crew.

"The driver's vision, even if sitting in an open hatch is severely restricted along the sides. He sits forward on the left side of the vehicle. His vision is significantly impaired along the right side of the vehicle which makes the account to "suddenly swerve to the right" and actually catch an animal suspect. If you were to attempt the same feat in your car, it would be very difficult and you have the benefit of side mirrors.

"Anyone familiar with tracked vehicles knows that turning sharply requires the road wheels on the side of the turn to either stop or reverse as the road wheels on the opposite side accelerates. What may not be obvious is that the track once on the ground, doesn't move. The road wheels roll across it but the track itself is stationary until it is pushed forward by the road wheels.

"The width of the track makes it highly unlikely that running over a dog would leave two intact parts. One half of the dog would have to be completely crushed.

"It also seems suspicious that a driver could go on repeated joy rides or purposefully run into things. Less a risk to the track though that is certainly possible but there is sensitive equipment on the top of the vehicle, antennas, sights, TOW missile launcher, commander and if it was a newer vehicle, the commander's independent viewer, not to mention the main gun. Strange things are known to happen in a combat environment but I can't imagine that the vehicle commander or the unit commander would tolerate repeated misuse of the vehicle, especially any action that could damage its ability to engage."

AemJeff,

I count three stories from Beauchamp:

1) The disfigured woman story. Numerous soldiers from FOB Falcon, where Beauchamp clams the incident took place, wrote in to say that they had never seen an injured woman there and that the base and the dining facilities in specific were so small that it would have been impossible for her presence not to have been noticed. Beauchamp has since recanted--he now claims the incident took place in Kuwait, before he deployed to a war zone. First the whole point of his diary is that the war has desensitized him to the point where he can mock the disfigured. That doesn't make sense if the incident happened before he even got to Iraq. Secondly no one at Camp Buehring in Kuwait, where Beauchamp claims the incident occured, can figure out who that disfigured lady is either. The PAO in Kuwait, Major Renee Russo, thinks the whole thing is an urban legend.

2) The Bradley AFV and the dogs. See my post above.

3) The kid who gets his tongue cut off. Beauchamp claims in the story that he had to change a tire on a Hummer in the middle of a river of sewage. Hummers have "run flat" tires, so that if one is shot out the crew can keep on driving.

Zug, all you're saying is some of the details seem wrong to you or somebody else, or that the evidence for them is pretty thin. That much is true, but isn't a basis for a definitive conclusion. While I'm sure that such people must exist, I've yet to see someone on my side of the debate say that what STB has said is definitely true. What motivates me to continue this debate is what I see as a bad faith attempt to, shall we say, control the narrative, by a group of people who don't seem particularly attached to the rules of rational discourse. I'm directing that last at, as I've previously listed, Weekly Standard, Hewitt, Malkin, Ace, et al...

AemJeff,

I share your concern for truth and honest rational discourse. For STB's Bradley story to be true all of the following impossibles and implausibles would have to be true.

A feral dog would have to lay still while an incredibly noisy 50,000 pound tracked vehicle approached.

The BFV would have to perform a maneuver that it almost certainly can't without throwing a track. The maneuver would seriously compromise the health and safety of the BFV crew, its passengers and the rest of the convoy in that it would dangerously toss the passengers around inside the vehicle, and increase the exposure of the convoy to IEDs and other attacks. If the BFV lost a track, it would become a sitting duck, and force a repair crew to expose itself to enemy fire. Crashing the vehicle through buildings presents similar risks.

The vehicle commander would have to be complicit in this idiocy as would the crew since the driver cannot see to execute it, not to menton that the commander would have to order the private to do it. Likewise, every commander and NCO in the convoy would have to be complicit. The incidents were allegedly broadcast, hence every listener would have to be complicit. The maneuver would have to be executed under a magic shield of invisibility for this to be true. Note also that not a single Iraqi, friendly or not, has stepped forward to complain about crazy Americans in BFVs careening down public streets destroying property and endangering private citizens. One might also wonder how such behavior did not come to the attention of the press, or the chain of command, etc. Let's assume we have a super conspiracy of BFV crews (ludicrous I know) who collaborate magically to kill dogs. They might value secrecy, buth their commanders would not, and they'd be busted and prosecuted.

I could go on. STB made the BFV stuff up. What he describes is impossible, not to mention suicidal.

Ross: "in which the underlying accusation (perjury in a case where no criminal charges were filed, embellishment or fabulism in a back-page TNR Diarist) is less significant than what the alleged crime is supposed to represent:..."

Um, just set you straight, Ross - perjury and obstruction of justice are crimes in and of themselves.

Giuliani is actually the only tested conservative in the 2008 race. He dealt seriously and well with crime, welfare, and budgetary issues that had been toyed with or neglected by Dinkins; when 9/11 hit, people, other than liberal ideologs, knew that he was an effective leader.

The following from Stephen Malanga captures his actions:

"Like great wartime leaders, Giuliani displayed unflinching courage on 9/11. A minute after the first plane struck, he rushed downtown, arriving at the World Trade Center just after the second plane hit the South Tower, when it became obvious to everyone that New York was under attack. Fearing that more strikes were on the way—and without access to City Hall, the police department, or the city’s command center because of damage from the attacks—Giuliani hurried to reestablish city government, narrowly escaping death himself as the towers came down next to a temporary command post he had set up in lower Manhattan. “There is no playbook for a mayor on how to organize city government when you are standing on a street covered by dust from the city’s worst calamity,” one of his deputy mayors, Anthony Coles, later observed.

"Giuliani understood that he needed not only to keep city government operating but to inspire and console as well. Within a few hours, he had reestablished New York’s government in temporary headquarters, where he led the first post-9/11 meeting with his commissioners and with a host of other New York elected officials on hand to observe, prompting even one of his harshest critics, liberal Manhattan congressman Jerrold Nadler, to marvel at the “efficiency of the meeting.” Within hours, the city launched a massive search and recovery operation. Some half a dozen times that day Giuliani went on TV, reassuring the city and then the nation with his calm, frank demeanor and his plainspoken talk. As the nation struggled to understand what had happened and President Bush made his way back to Washington, Giuliani emerged as the one public official in America who seemed to be in command on 9/11. He became, as Newsweek later called him, 'our Winston Churchill.' "

Thanks for the spam, Petey. How many other places will you be posting that today?

Sorry for the misplaced post.

AemJeff,

You're shooting the messenger here. Regardless of whether or not the people you listed have an agenda is not relevant--what counts is that TNR is a professional news magazine and as such they have a sacred duty not to print stuff of dubious provenance. Beauchamp's diaries aren't "thin". They're riddled with flaws to an extent that renders them implausible. You may dislike Michael Goldfarb and the Weekly Standard due to ideological reasons, but do you really think he's stupid? He issued a public call to the web at large to investigate stories published by a rival news publication--in other words he was directly attacking their credibility. That is a major scandal. If he was wrong, don't you think that his public denunciations would have blown up in his face? If he had in fact been wrong then the damage applied to the Weekly Standard would be at least on par with what TNR is facing now.

Finally, the world will not long remember Scott Thomas Beauchamp. After all, his lies are pretty minor. What is important though is what this story represents--that a league of "citizen journalists" debunked a story that appeared in a professional news publication. The way that big media operates is changing because of the internet. That story is important, it represents what historians will be talking about in the future and it's the only possible reason that anyone might remember Beauchamp fifty years from now.

zugzug writes: "Regardless of whether or not the people you listed have an agenda is not relevant--what counts is that TNR is a professional news magazine and as such they have a sacred duty not to print stuff of dubious provenance."

Would zugzug extend this concept of "sacred duty" to the endless crap written and spoken about the O'Hanlon and Pollack report by most MSM and right-wing journals? That report received 1000 times the attention Beauchamp's little ditties did. But of course zugzug is a movement Malkinite and isn't really interested in any other form of "sacred duty."

No one will remember Beauchamp or Malkin 50 years from now, zuggy, the efforts of your cult notwithstanding.

Zug, Old Dad we’re running in circles, here. I try to answer most of the courteous replies I see to the arguments I make publicly. I doubt I’ll post on this again, however. Feel free to take the last word.

Old Dad, you and I, I think, disagree about what standard of proof should be applied before you assert that somebody is a liar. I think most of what’s been floated, so far, is at best arguable, and far from definitive.

Zug, your point about “sacred duty” doesn’t carry any force. The adjective is meaningless, and the idea you’re apparently trying to convey bears no relationship to actuality. Anonymous diaries, whether printed on somebody’s blog or in TNR, The Weekly Standard, or the New York Times can not be assumed to be reliably true. Think about it: first person, anonymous. If you choose to assume they’re intended to be gospel, then you’re making a trivially avoidable mistake. Or you're deliberately conflating categories because that helps support your rhetorical intent.

BTW, you won’t catch me “disliking” any person or publication because of their ideological outlook. I do have notions of honesty and standards. The Weekly Standard via, among other things, their transparently stupid, repetitive headlines about the how the “missing” WMD had been located have damaged their credibility pretty badly.

Lastly the notion of “citizen journalists” is risible, fatuous nonsense. I’ve only seen that phrase in one other place, a blog so hateful and ugly that I won’t provide a link, though a search based on Ayn Rand references might lead you there. Journalism is a profession. You don’t get to call yourself one until you’ve had a job doing it. Ross Douthat is a journalist. Michelle Malkin is, as well. Hugh Hewitt and Ace aren’t. Neither is Markos. It takes more than a soapbox and wishful thinking.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

What do O'Hanlon and Pollack have to do with this? Why would you even bring that up? I have to admit that I think it's a little bizarre that you would try to change the subject in such an abrupt and radical fashion.

Look, it's real simple. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree or disagree with what an article is saying. It doesn't matter if the other side is also producing falsehoods. Any article that is composed of lies is unacceptable. Anything else is just window dressing. What's changed is that media has become democratized to such an extent that now a legion of ordinary citizens can push back when they catch big media screwing up. By and large that's been a good thing. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

AemJeff,

Your assertion that news organizations have no responsibility for anonymous authorship is one that's fraught with peril. How many news stories depend on anonymous sourcing or leaks? News organizations have always compensated for the inherent dangers associated with anonymous sources by doing their own investigating and by doing everything with their power to independently verify what their anonymous sources tell them. In other words, they stand by what appears in the pages of their publication. If that's abandoned then how is it possible to trust anything that appears in any news publication? By publishing Beauchamp's fictional diaries TNR was staking its own credibility of the factual accuracy of said diaries. In a world where that didn't hold true a magazine could publish any nonsense they could get their hands on with no fear of repercussion.

I have no idea what your beef is with the idea of "citizen journalists". I don't see how it's debatable that the legions of ordinary people who blog have done a useful thing in keeping the MSM honest--first with the Bush ANG story and continuing on to the Beauchamp diaries today.

Compare these two statements.

Beauchamp: "I ran over dogs with a Bradley."

Cheney: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

I guess that's why the Weekly Standard has been calling for Cheney to resign the last four years. Geesh, this whole conversation is completely insane.


Posted by Tim | August 12, 2007 4:46 PM

*************************************************

Joseph C. Wilson, Feb. 6, 2003: "There is now no incentive for Hussein to comply with the inspectors or to refrain from using weapons of mass destruction to defend himself if the United States comes after him.

And he will use them; we should be under no illusion about that."

http://www.politicsoftruth.com/editorials/big_cat.html

Tim,

If the Republicans tell a lie that doesn't mean that the Democrats get to lie. What kind of world would that be?

This is absolutely elementary, and it's mind boggling that people are actually trying to defend TNR on this basis. This is literally something most people learn at the age of five. If somebody does something wrong that is no justification for your own bad behavior. This is the "Two wrongs don't make a right" lesson your mother pounded into your head when you were fighting with your siblings, right?

zugzug writes: "What do O'Hanlon and Pollack have to do with this? Why would you even bring that up? I have to admit that I think it's a little bizarre that you would try to change the subject in such an abrupt and radical fashion."

Of course you don't, zuggy. You're a Malkinite. You assign "sacred duties" to those you deem "liberals," but you let your own side skate.

For every "lie" you claim Beauchamp has told, your Great Leader and his minions have told thousands. It doesn't seem to bother you in those cases. So stop using nonsense phrases like "sacred duty."

AemJeff,

You wrote:

"Old Dad, you and I, I think, disagree about what standard of proof should be applied before you assert that somebody is a liar. I think most of what’s been floated, so far, is at best arguable, and far from definitive."

I agree that we disagree. I'm not interested in characterizing STB as anything. Ultimately, the Army, TNR, his family, the press, and the public will weigh in. My primary interest is in finding out the truth--and then tring to make sure that the record is set straight--accordingly.

My main gripe is with TNR, whose editorial judgment on fact checking obviously does not hinge on definitive proof. It seems that no proof whatsoever is needed to justify publication--definitive proof, that is.

It must be clear by now that I am no attorney. But in the the court or commonsense, I like my chances.

Old Dad writes: "My main gripe is with TNR, whose editorial judgment on fact checking obviously does not hinge on definitive proof. It seems that no proof whatsoever is needed to justify publication--definitive proof, that is."

I'd be interested to see if Old Dad could point to posts he's written in this or any other forums holding TNR, the New York Times, or any other publication to this "definitive proof" standard when they simply present the claims of the Bush administration as fact without doing even a scintilla of fact checking. But of course I already know the answer to that one.

I really do wish the 25% would stop pretending they care about the truth. They care about their cause, and that's it.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

Mommy will be very angry when she finds out that you've been trolling on the internets.

Given wbat you claim you already know, you must know that you are an idiot. I applaud you for that.

And Misters Howard, and Fine are wondering where the yuks are. Mr. Jesus can take care of himself.

If Jesus can take care of himself, Old Dad, then why are so many ignorant loudmouths in your party claiming to speak for him?

I'm in my mid-40s, by the way, and "Mommy" doesn't speak for me. Perhaps you're confusing me with Ronald Reagan and his "Mommy."

Thanks for not answering my query about your intellectual honesty, though. It was rhetorical, anyway. You Malkinites wouldn't know what honesty was if you were being injected with it - in which case your systems would go into anaphylactic shock.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, so I assume that he's the "Great Leader" you're referring to. What lies pray tell has he told?

You are obviously a committed partisan. Good for you. I wonder if you can even understand why people would be disturbed by a position that boils down to "Lies told by my side are good, lies told by the other side are bad".

zuggy, the "lies" of Beauchamp, if they are lies, were told in a PRO-WAR publication. In other words, they're being published by your side.

Who did you vote for in 2004, chuckles? Bo Gritz?

MoeLarryAndJesus,

I think you're a little confused here. If TNR is a pro-war publication then by attacking them on the basis of the Beauchamp diaries how can I be a "Malkinite" or whatever?

Actually I didn't bother to vote in this last election. Frankly your interest in that question makes me think that you're a closed minded, knee jerk partisan. What difference does it make who I voted for? Your attempts to shuttle people into stereotypical camps constructed around political affiliation, rather than actually responding to and discussing the issue at hand, speaks volumes about you.

zuggy replies: "I think you're a little confused here. If TNR is a pro-war publication then by attacking them on the basis of the Beauchamp diaries how can I be a "Malkinite" or whatever?

Actually I didn't bother to vote in this last election. Frankly your interest in that question makes me think that you're a closed minded, knee jerk partisan. What difference does it make who I voted for? Your attempts to shuttle people into stereotypical camps constructed around political affiliation, rather than actually responding to and discussing the issue at hand, speaks volumes about you."

I guess it's just an accident that you're parroting Malkin's lines on this issue then, zuggy. I'm quite convinced you didn't vote, too. Sure you didn't. And I'm sure you're as offended by the media lapses over O'Hanlon and Pollack - a much more prominent example - than you are about Beauchamp's oh-so-serious "lies."

If you have some spare time go to Youtube and watch the videos of US soldiers shooting dogs in Iraq or taunting Iraqi children. As Donnie Rumsfeld said, "stuff happens." Deal with it.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

Swift said something like "Reason cannot dislodge an opinion which it did not install in the first place." What do O'Hanlon and Pollack have to do with this? What does YouTube? The answer is absolutely nothing. Why bring them up in that case?

The issue here is really simple. If TNR published an article composed of lies then they need to retract it. You are so brainwashed though that you can't simply admit that, so you desperately do everything in your power to muddy the waters and confuse the issue.

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