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Repression and Republicans

28 Aug 2007 12:53 pm

On the case of Larry Craig, David Freddoso wonders "Why is it that Republicans — Craig, Mark Foley, and David Vitter — are the ones who keep getting caught in sex scandals nowadays?" No doubt some of it is random clustering (why does that phrase suddenly sound dirty?); I don't think the Vitter case speaks to any deep truth about a particular Republican predilection for prostitutes, for instance. And some of it is that there's a greater incentive for the media to go digging through the dirty laundry of politicians who trumpet their support for "family values," because of the hypocrisy factor. But it also stands to reason that the party that's associated with conservative beliefs about sex, marriage and family would include a higher percentage of the sort of people who try to avoid acting on their own homosexual inclinations for the sake of those beliefs - and that this higher rate of repression would breed a higher rate of embarrassing scandals.

The contrast between Craig - or Ted Haggard - and Jim McGreevey is instructive, in this regard. McGreevey was conducting long-term affairs with men, which suggests a person who had attained a certain comfort with his homosexuality, even as he attempted to keep it a secret. Whereas Craig and Haggard both seem to have sought out gay encounters in as furtive a fashion as possible, as someone would who's giving in to what they consider an immoral temptation, rather than merely acting on a desire they would prefer to keep hidden from the public. And not coincidentally, given this difference in how they approached their sexual desires - and the kind of scandals that ensued - both Craig and Haggard are Republicans, while McGreevey is a liberal Democrat.

Comments (55)

Ross deserves great credit for posting this. A lot of conservtives go to great lengths not to admit that this can be a problem.

Chickenhawks and closet cases and Jesoids who support torture and preemptive war are the icons of the current Republican Party - which I will continue to refer to as the Repiglican Party until it gets its act together. Of course this is highly unlikely, since the majority of Repiglicans at this point are not even close to being in their right mind.

Jamie, a guest blogger over at Sullivan's site, once again dredges up the old saw that gay marriage will reduce cruising.

It's odd to think that gay men will stop cruising just because they can get married legally. Gays have had the ability to live together freely and in the open for some time now - so gay marriage as a public safety measure is clearly a non starter.

Gay men engage in cruising because it is anonymous sex they want to engage in. It is not due to the lack of long term relationships. Statistically, states with legal gay marriage rarely see more than 10% of gays getting married. No matter what enforced social legitimatization of gay relationships is used, gay men will continue to cruise...

I would think that this quote would prove you wrong, liamcolvin. Sure, things have improved a lot from the bad old days. But there are large parts of society--for example, the Republican Party of Idaho--where it is not acceptable to be gay. Do you honestly think that the Idaho GOP would nominate an openly gay man for statewide office? I don't, and it's a damn shame.

"I don't go around anywhere hitting on men, and by God, if I did, I wouldn't do it in Boise, Idaho! Jiminy!"
--Larry Craig

Statistically, states with legal gay marriage rarely see more than 10% of gays getting married.
All one of them? Or are you talking about other countries as well?

IMO, "they would cruise anyway" argument is specious. Single men and women still look for one-night stands in singles bars, despite the fact that they can get married. That doesn't diminish marriage's importance as a social institution; in fact, some cite one-night stands as a reason to strengthen the institution of marriage.

"But it also stands to reason that the party that's associated with conservative beliefs about sex, marriage and family would include a higher percentage of the sort of people who try to avoid acting on their own homosexual inclinations for the sake of those beliefs - and that this higher rate of repression would breed a higher rate of embarrassing scandals."

I've seen this in play in debates about assisted suicide. When a certain type with past suicidal temptations hears the deed proposed as legally tolerable or morally neutral, he's not hearing an abstract argument about principles--he's hearing temptation and threats to two of his coping mechanisms: social disapproval and legal ostracism.

That said, "Repression" seems like a concept right out of the Steam Age. Is it really a diagnosable clinical phenomenon, or just a convenient standby of pop psychology?

I had never considered the fact that the majority of recent Congressmen to open up about being gay were Republican. And now that I think about it why do they associate themselves with a party who is openly against them (even if they don't know it)? The republican party seems less powerful and credible when such events occur where people from their own party contradict their beliefs.

Pretty funny, Dan. You proved my point.

Even if you legalize gay marriage - using legal means to enforce social acceptance of a lifestyle - you still can't make people accept gay lifestyles if they don't want to.

It's not racist, it's not sexist, it's not anything other than social acceptance at work. If you want to be accepted in New York, don't be try to be a conservative Mormon with multiple wives. If you want to be accepted in Idaho, don't be cruising for sex in men's bathrooms.

Besides which, you still didn't address the fact that even full social acceptance of gays will not reduce cruising by gay men significantly.

Marriage isn't just about "full social acceptance" by straight people. It also changes how you relate to your partner and how you relate to other members of the gay community. You would have to be profoundly cynical, or simply cold-hearted, to think that marriage means nothing on an emotional or social level to gays.

Social acceptance of heterosexual relations is not the rationale behind heterosexual marriage, because those relations are not stigmatized. Nonetheless, the institution of marriage does reduce the prevalence of one-night stands and barhopping among straight people. If you spend a moment to ponder the mechanism at work, it will become clear.

I know it may seem like a tough logic problem, but it's really pretty obvious. You can do it.

No matter what enforced social legitimatization of gay relationships is used, gay men will continue to cruise.

And you know this because.....you're out at rest-stops proving it everyday?

Basic logic problem:

1) Straight people can marry
2) Straight people don't cruise
3) Gay men can't marry
4) Let gay men marry and they'll stop cruising

Uh huh. Sure.

Anonymous sex is statistically lower amongst straights because they are not gay. Not because they can marry.

Put it this way, cruising is a function of gay male culture - not a function of homosexuality. It's not contradictory to condemn gay male culture and while not condemning homosexuals.

The problem is that everyone buys into the marriage will cure cruising rationale.

Unreal.

Strait people cruise all the time. Its called prostitution.

kurtimus

Ha! Right on the mark! I missed that.

And yet, also germane. Prostitution (hookers doing their business on the street, cars, soliciting strangers) is a socially disruptive force, which oddly enough, marriage does very little to quell. Still very popular.

Male sexual proclivities are, to a certain extent, restrained by marriage in a straight couples. The issue remains though (I'd conjecture) that the percentage of straight men who have used prostitutes is far lower than the percentage of gay men that have had repeated anonymous sex.

"That said, "Repression" seems like a concept right out of the Steam Age. Is it really a diagnosable clinical phenomenon, or just a convenient standby of pop psychology?"

Yes: I have my doubts about the veracity of Kevin’s main point.

Why is it that these men are not "repressed bi-sexuals" or straight guy looking for easy sex & so forth.

It doesn’t take a lot of empathy for human sexuality and distance from gay propaganda to realize that the simplistic notion of closeted gays lurking in repressed hiding is overwrought.

Does this gentleman not love his wife (and is sexually attracted to her) same with James McGreevy.

Male sexual proclivities are also restrained by female sexual proclivities. The number of heterosexual women willing to engage in anonymous sex low enough (approaching zero, I'd guess) that a strait man's quest for anonymous sex is likely to be futile (at least without paying for it).

I'd guess you're correct about the relative numbers of straits who've used prostitutes versus gays who've had anonymous sex, but I'm more inclined to attribute this to something about prostitution (either economics, social stigma, or having to pay removing some of the excitement) than something about gay morals.

This past year there has been exactly 1 application for a same-sex marriage license from the City of Toronto this past year for a Canadian couple. The rest have been foreigners, most presumably hoping to challenge the laws back home. That's 0.01% of all marriage licenses in the city last year. Now, Toronto, as befitting a large, very left leaning city, does have a very large gay community, so it would appear that gays really aren't actually interested in marriage.

I'm afraid the idea that gay men are ever going to start settling down into anything like a conservative, middle class lifestyle was never anything but an absurd fantasy that flatters the world view of a certain kind of middle class woman who doesn't want to think that her nice, polite gay friends_really_like engaging in large scale promiscuity and of a few conservative gays like Andrew Sullivan who_need_to believe that gay sex and family values are ultimately compatible. Whatever your views on gay marriage, it cannot be justified on the basis of such a patent absurdity.

I'm more inclined to attribute this to something about prostitution (either economics, social stigma, or having to pay removing some of the excitement)

or explaining to the wife where you picked up that disease

You would have to be profoundly cynical, or simply cold-hearted, to think that marriage means nothing on an emotional or social level to gays.

Heck, I'm both and I don't think that. I know folks who've had (non-legal) gay "marriages" and I think they meant a great deal to them.

That said, I agree that it's very unlikely that gay marriage (A) will have a number of takers in any way proportional to the institution's strength, even now, among straights or (B) will do much of anything about gay men cruising. I am moderately surprised that lesbians also seem (in most places) fairly uninterested in getting hitched. Something is awry with my models, there.

or explaining to the wife where you picked up that disease

True, although that should apply to closeted senators cruising rest rooms as well.

Re: Gay men engage in cruising because it is anonymous sex they want to engage in.

The above statement needs an adjective: "Closeted". Yes: Closeted gay men engage in cruising... As a gay guy myself (who is disgusted by restroom sex) I don't know any openly gay guys who cruise in bathrooms. Even the most promiscuous sort simply settle down in some M4M chat room and advertise for some action. Or the more old-fashioned sort head for the local gay bath house.

Re: Anonymous sex is statistically lower amongst straights because they are not gay.

And you know this how? Please cite some credible statistics concerning straight people and one-night-stand-type sex. I know enough straight folks to know that one-nighters are sure the heck not at all rare among them! And please don't forget to factor in the hookers: someone is keeping that legion of Ladies of the Evening in fishnet stockings and it isn't gay guys or Lesbians.

Re: The issue remains though (I'd conjecture) that the percentage of straight men who have used prostitutes is far lower than the percentage of gay men that have had repeated anonymous sex.

Again. How do you know this? Please do not make such assertions without citing evidence (and Paul Cameron and his ilk do not cut it).
And I rather think you are either deliberately blind to reality or have spent your life in considerable isolation. I suggest a visit to any college-age party scene, any singles bar, or any "hookers drive" in a major city. You'd probably shocked by the amount of meaningless, casual sex that is contracted among straight folks.

Re: The number of heterosexual women willing to engage in anonymous sex low enough (approaching zero, I'd guess)

As with the poster above, you need to visit any staright hook-up millieu to be disabsued of this notion that straight women are chaste as nuns. Uhn-uhn-- they aren't!

Re: I'm afraid the idea that gay men are ever going to start settling down into anything like a conservative, middle class lifestyle was never anything but an absurd fantasy that flatters the world view of a certain kind of middle class woman

You also need to meet more gay guys. I admit that many of us sow our wild oats when we are younger (but again: so do most straight folks) but as middle age sets in most of us discover the virtue of settling down-- if only because (as with straight folks) one doesn't get many dates when one's age and waistline both start with a "4". I know any number of guys my age who live with partners quite faithfully and who don't run around like wild goats. Drop the prejudice, burn the Paul Cameron tracts, and see reality!

I would say that the vice most specific to iberal males is wife- or woman-beating. In my non-scientific experience there seem to be a lot more liberal guys and liberal politicians than conservative guys and politicians that beat their wives. Could be just an anomoly of experience but its something I've noticed.

TMoC writes: "I agree that it's very unlikely that gay marriage (A) will have a number of takers in any way proportional to the institution's strength, even now, among straights or (B) will do much of anything about gay men cruising. I am moderately surprised that lesbians also seem (in most places) fairly uninterested in getting hitched. Something is awry with my models, there."'

I think it's premature to be making these sorts of determinations. Gay marriage, even in Massachusetts, is in its infancy in this country - and since the Massachusetts benefits don't translate to other states or confer federal benefits, there are good reasons for gay people to still regard it as a "second class" marriage, and to pass on it for now.

I also wonder if the closet - as well as familial disapproval - play a larger part than people think they do. Perhaps people like Larry Craig (or the many other bagged GOP/conservative sad sack closet cases) would be among the gays most likely to take advantage of gay marriage if they hadn't lived their entire lives afraid of being "outed" while living in bigoted backwaters, or benighted Baptist boonies.

As for the "heterosexuals don't cruise" thinkers here - you have got to be f**king kidding me. When your ship arrived here from Uranus, where did you hide it?

I'm afraid the idea that gay men are ever going to start settling down into anything like a conservative, middle class lifestyle was never anything but an absurd fantasy that flatters the world view of a certain kind of middle class woman who doesn't want to think that her nice, polite gay friends_really_like engaging in large scale promiscuity and of a few conservative gays like Andrew Sullivan who_need_to believe that gay sex and family values are ultimately compatible.

Um, I -am- a married gay man.

Ben H writes: "I would say that the vice most specific to iberal males is wife- or woman-beating. In my non-scientific experience there seem to be a lot more liberal guys and liberal politicians than conservative guys and politicians that beat their wives. Could be just an anomoly of experience but its something I've noticed."

Ben H, on the other hand, likes to dress up like a clown while he strangles puppies.

Walker Percy claimed (probably mostly as a joke, but you never know) that liberal men tended to get impotence and right-wing men tended to get bowel diseases. All generalities are false.

Of course some straight folks cruise (though for obvious reasons, restroom sex at airports isn't a major method here). I don't have 'em at hand, but there are a number of studies over the years showing considerably higher promiscuity among +male_ homosexuals than among straight males. Maybe the closet, but I think there are quite liberal evolutionary psych types who will quietly acknowledge that this is rather what you'd expect, never mind the moral systems or repression or whatnot. My guess is that this is a real effect -- maybe partly psychological, but there may well be deeper biological causes. It doesn't prevent many gay men from settling down, for various reasons, and trends are never universal. But it's probably a real trend. I'll look the studies up when I have time. I believe there are several (epidemiology was a source for some, I think).

As with the poster above, you need to visit any staright hook-up millieu to be disabsued of this notion that straight women are chaste as nuns. Uhn-uhn-- they aren't!

I've been to many strait hook-up millieus and I never said women were as chaste as nuns. There are, in fact, quite a range of behaviors between being a nun and being willing to engage in sex acts with a stranger through a hole in the wall in a public restroom. Perhaps approaching zero is overstating it (although I don't think by much in most situations), but I doubt waiving your hand under a bathroom stall is going to get you much play with most women.

Are you really arguing that women aren't generally the limiting factor in how much sex strait men have?

JonF -

Nope - won't supply you with stats. You disprove my assertion with stats.

I am not blind, and had a very liberal upbringing. Ann Arbor, Mi. drove cab, worked in bars, had gay friends, was an art student. Saw alot. Didn't particularly think about any of this until I got married and had kids.

Alot of what both harms and supports children is the tradition of marriage and parenthood. Sad to say, but the majority of those I've talked to and read who support marriage for gays see it as some sort of social, Rosa Parks-on-the-bus crusade. If you dig into CDC records, you'll see that even before the AIDS crisis, gay men had STD rates several times the national average for men their age. This is not coincidence. Gay men like anonymous sex.

In reality, (and in general) gay marriage is a vanity thing. There are some gays who are moral, and want a solid relationship. This being said, however - gays are not downtrodden, they are not oppressed, and they have full and complete access to the upper strata of society. Barney Frank, et. al.

Gay marriage does nothing for society other than trivialize the concept of marrigage (which has already taken a beating in the last 30 years), and mandates a legally enforced type of "acceptance" of the something that is already tolerated by most educated people. If you want everyone in Idaho to accept gays, well - you'll need the National Guard, I think.

Again, do not be confused by the conflation of male homosexuality and the gay male lifestyle. You can be morally homosexual and not "gay". Morally homosexual does not mean celibate, either. It just means find a relationship and keep faithful to that partner. Period Hooking up via chat rooms is no better than cruising for action in a rest room.

What Craig did was stupid and ugly. No matter who was waiting at home for him.

TMoC writes: "Of course some straight folks cruise (though for obvious reasons, restroom sex at airports isn't a major method here). I don't have 'em at hand, but there are a number of studies over the years showing considerably higher promiscuity among +male_ homosexuals than among straight males. Maybe the closet, but I think there are quite liberal evolutionary psych types who will quietly acknowledge that this is rather what you'd expect, never mind the moral systems or repression or whatnot. My guess is that this is a real effect -- maybe partly psychological, but there may well be deeper biological causes. It doesn't prevent many gay men from settling down, for various reasons, and trends are never universal. But it's probably a real trend. I'll look the studies up when I have time. I believe there are several (epidemiology was a source for some, I think)."

This is because they're MEN. Driven by testosterone.

The equivalent among heterosexuals, as someone above pointed out, is the HUGE supply of female prostitutes available in any well-populated area 24 hours a day, at least in this country. Hint: It's not gay men who are providing the incentive for these women to ply their trade.

The promiscuity numbers don't coincide for lesbians.

Why reality ever surprises anyone surprises me.

But this "promiscuity problem" - which is only a problem if you happen to give a rat's ass, and I don't - has absolutely no bearing on the question of whether gay men (or women) who want to marry each other should be allowed to do so. Nothing. There is no rational argument to ban such arrangements, just he sort of warmed-over primitive bullshit which leads some dingbats to cover up the titties of statues.

Liam Colvin writes: "Gay marriage does nothing for society other than trivialize the concept of marrigage (which has already taken a beating in the last 30 years), and mandates a legally enforced type of "acceptance" of the something that is already tolerated by most educated people. If you want everyone in Idaho to accept gays, well - you'll need the National Guard, I think."

Why would anyone care if everyone in Idaho "accepts gays"? I don't accept bigots, Liam, but I do think you have a right to be one, and you apparently are taking full advantage of that right.

You also have the right to think "alot" is a word.

Legalized gay marriage doesn't require you to accept anything, chuckles - any more than the legalization of interracial marriages forced Klansmen to think "race-mixing" was okay.

I like to think that someday one of your kids will introduce you to his or her "life partner" and that you'll be able to deal with it, but if you can't and a blood pressure spike leads to your eyeballs shooting out of your head, that would be okay, too.

Re: Nope - won't supply you with stats.

In other words you’ll make a claim and assert its truth without any support. If a prosecutor did that in a courtroom the judge would promplty dismiss the case, so I think we are justified in doing that here.

Re: Gay men like anonymous sex.

You keep harping on “anonymous” sex, but is there any difference morally between a one-nighter where you ask someone’s name and a one-nighter where you don’t? Both strike me equally as fornication. Moreover sweeping generalities like the above are bigoted and reprehensible by their very nature. If you amended the statement to “Some gay men” I would agree, but the way you put it, it’s the equivalent of “Jews are greedy” or “Black women prefer to have children out of marriage”.

You know, the interesting thing about marriage in this context (straight vs. gay) is that in straight marriage, the female half usually exterts the moderating influence on the male half, and not the other way around. I don't see that happening in male gay marriage for something other than the obvious reasons.

As to MLAF and JonF and the concept of bigotry - think of it this way: I may support gun ownership and hunting, but I thing Ted Nugent is an ass. In case you guys missed it, I pointed out earlier that there is a difference between being homosexual and being gay. Being homosexual is (to the best of our current knowledge on the subject) a natural variation which occurs to less than 10% of the population. Being gay is a social construct, currently imposed on both homosexuals and straights as the natural consequence of being homosexual. I am speaking to the latter, and the problems I see with the gay lifestyle.

Do I think either gay men/gay marriage should be outlawed? Good lord no. This is a social issue. It's a stupid social issue. What would I say to a married gay couple? "How very nice for you!" I agree with binding social contracts with give each partner rights and obligations to the other, yada yada, but don't call it marriage. It ain't. Calling it marriage is like calling Dennis Kuchinich a viable presidential candidate.

I've seen some pretty asinine social contracts in my time living in Ann Arbor - ones that usually ended when one or the other grew up and moved on. This too shall pass.

In his book, McGreevey admitted to cruising rest stops on the Garden State Parkway and the New Jersey Turnpike. The only long term affair he was involved in prior to his coming out was with Golan Cipel, which led to his downfall as governor.

Maybe there is a difference between cruising highway rest stops as opposed to airport bathrooms, but I don't see it.

As Sean above this post notes, McGreevey admitted to going to highway reststop public bathrooms where he had sex with other men.

Hardly examples of long term committment.

Hey, Sean, SteveMG? The video store called. The Girls Gone Wild dvds you guys rented are way overdue.

Liam Colvin writes: "Do I think either gay men/gay marriage should be outlawed? Good lord no. This is a social issue. It's a stupid social issue. What would I say to a married gay couple? "How very nice for you!" I agree with binding social contracts with give each partner rights and obligations to the other, yada yada, but don't call it marriage. It ain't."

Make it legal and that's what people will call it. And you can keep on calling it something else, but you'll end up looking like a crazy, grumpy old man who lives in a past no one cares to remember.

You'll be like one of those embarrassing old nitwits who talks about "colored people." No difference.

This past year there has been exactly 1 application for a same-sex marriage license from the City of Toronto this past year for a Canadian couple. The rest have been foreigners, most presumably hoping to challenge the laws back home.

That statistic is false. From "Macleans" (a weekly Canadian newsmagazine) earlier this month:

"In 2007, up to Wednesday of this week, Toronto now says it has issued 459 same-sex marriage licenses - and that fully 182 of them went to couples listing a Canadian address. In other words, if only one of Toronto's gay couples tied the knot between New Year's Day and June 22, they've been on a bit of a spree in the month and a half since."

Full article here:
http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20070810_123722_8040

Hey, Sean, SteveMG? The video store called. The Girls Gone Wild dvds you guys rented are way overdue.

Now there's a non sequitur.


SMG

Moe,

Be nice. Alot of people use "alot" -- in a spirit of tolerance we should accept such deviate word usage, however much it offends our moral sensitivities.

I'm against gay marriage, but my point is one I think we actually agree on: claiming it will alter gay male sex habits much is a poor argument, and there are much better and more plausible ones out there.

"Fairness" claims are much more likely to win people to your side than reminding them that (ewwwww) lots of gay men get it on in restrooms. In the long run, I think you're right -- gay marriage isn't inevitable, but it's certainly the way to bet. But it's going to take a while, and if courts overstep much they could end up with constitutional barriers in place before the opinion war is won that will make it take longer.

"There is no rational argument to ban such arrangements, just he sort of warmed-over primitive bullshit which leads some dingbats to cover up the titties of statues."


http://defendmarriageresources.blogspot.com/

http://opine-editorials.blogspot.com/

But this "promiscuity problem" - which is only a problem if you happen to give a rat's ass, and I don't

How 70s liberal -- and stupid from the point of view of epidemiology. I think it's fine not to give a rat's ass as long as you don't like public health care, but in the meanwhile it's as stupid as not caring if people smoke. While we all pay some price, even if you have no moral problems with the behavior, it's a bit dumb.

The interesting thing with gay marriage will be to see whether, when the courts (as seems likely) gut religious freedom in order to support it, there's a general backlash or just a localized radicalization.

Thanks Alex, you are correct.

As a second to Fitz there is this:

http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/005244.html/

Hey, Sean, SteveMG? The video store called. The Girls Gone Wild dvds you guys rented are way overdue.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 29, 2007 9:17 AM

I'm not sure I get the joke here, but Moe, it is good to run into you again. We used to butt heads over at the detailed twang blog. It's been a while. I'm happy to see you are still using your razor wit so effectively.

My point in my original post was that McGreevey, my former governor, engaged in the exact same behavior that Craig engaged in, which undermines the central point of Ross' post. Moe, if you'd care to share your thoughts on that, I'm all ears.

Fistly, cudos to Ross for this one. Also, I think that it is sad that a government official isn't comfortable being gay because of its influence on voters. I think that it is sad that a poltician, especially Republicans due to their conservatism, are forced to be hypocrital even about their personal life. I guess it's just another ailment of conservatism - not being open to anything new, even if it involves your own sexual preferences.

I guess it's just another ailment of conservatism - not being open to anything new, even if it involves your own sexual preferences.

Oh please. McGreevey was relatively liberal and cruised truck stop bathrooms. Being generally open to _anything_ "new" relating to one's sexual preferences and general desires isn't a recipe for fulfillment and lack of repression -- it's a recipe for being a faithless jerk without sexual or interpersonal morals. In general, if there's anything most of us should distrust and be at least a little less than totally open to, it's our unlimited sexual desires.

Which liberals understand, I think, when it comes to our desire for power and money -- I'm not sure why some people think sex isn't equally potentially corrupting. It's more important than money, and so likely even more dangerous.

Sean writes: "I'm not sure I get the joke here, but Moe, it is good to run into you again. We used to butt heads over at the detailed twang blog. It's been a while. I'm happy to see you are still using your razor wit so effectively.

My point in my original post was that McGreevey, my former governor, engaged in the exact same behavior that Craig engaged in, which undermines the central point of Ross' post. Moe, if you'd care to share your thoughts on that, I'm all ears."

As I recall you're a Rudy Giuliani fan, Sean, so I'd guess that cheating on one's wife doesn't seem like a big deal to you... as long as it's with another woman (or series of women) and the pol doing it is a hardass Republican.

As for Ross's point, McGreevey is, at least at this point, able to admit that he's gay, and both Haggard and Craig are not. So I'd say Ross is on to something.

Yes, but McGreevey didn't admit he was gay until it was the best way to _save_ his political career. Haggard and Craig presumably would deep-six their respective careers even further by going "I'm gay!"

Haggard at least may be sincerely trying to not act out his homosexuality, though the rather fast-track "hey, I'm over it!" does obviously appear silly and doomed.

As for Ross's point, McGreevey is, at least at this point, able to admit that he's gay, and both Haggard and Craig are not. So I'd say Ross is on to something.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 29, 2007 5:46 PM

Nope, that was not Ross' point. He wrote: McGreevey was conducting long-term affairs with men, which suggests a person who had attained a certain comfort with his homosexuality, even as he attempted to keep it a secret.

This is factually incorrect. If you take a look at his book, McGreevey was engaging in anonymous sex in highway rest stops, during which time he married twice and became a father twice. His first long term affair with a man was with Golan Cipel, but that did not happen until he spent decades cruising bookstores, restrooms and rest stops, by his admission. He also opposed gay marriage when he ran for the statehouse in 1997 and 2001, and opposed it while he was governor, threatening to veto any bill that came to his desk legalizing it. Does that sound like a guy who was comfortable being gay?

McGreevey and Senator Craig have more in common than they have differences, with the exception that McGreevey is now open about being gay, though he did have to be forced out of the closet. Craig is a hypocrite, no doubt about it, but I don't see how he is any different from McGreevey hen he was governor.

Moe, I realize that explaining a joke ruins it, but could you try to explain the Girls Gone Wild crack? It doesn't make any sense to me.

sean asks: "Moe, I realize that explaining a joke ruins it, but could you try to explain the Girls Gone Wild crack? It doesn't make any sense to me."

Well, you and Stevo posted essentially identical "but, but, McGreevey" posts one after the other in the finest conservative "but, but, Clinton" tradition, so I figured you were a couple of "other priority" College Republicans with their usual fine aesthetic sensibilities. How was I to know you were just a Jersey guy who will never get over the fact that his state was once run by one of "the gays"?

which I will continue to refer to as the Repiglican Party until it gets its act together

I'm sure Mel Martinez is quaking in his boots.

Eh. McGreevey is a terrible poster boy for gays. I have a gay friend, no conservative, who is irritated that his corrupt unprincipled slimeball governor made all his scandals vanish by, er, assertion his gayness. Admittedly, it has tarnished less than you'd think, in that nobody remembers the other stuff now, but it was a slick political move. To be fair, by Jersey standards, McGreevey may have been fairly clean.

S Mike says: "I'm sure Mel Martinez is quaking in his boots."

I don't think there's a single Repiglican in the leadership who isn't quaking right now. The party's in dire straits and it deserves to be.

I've voted for some Republicans in the past, but I can't imagine voting for one in 2008 on any level. If there was ever a party that has one massive, brutal purge coming, it's today's GOP. The scumbags know it, too, which is why so many of them are jumping ship, deciding not to run, or skipping their usual party donations.

If there was ever a party that has one massive, brutal purge coming, it's today's GOP. The scumbags know it, too, which is why so many of them are jumping ship, deciding not to run, or skipping their usual party donations.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 29, 2007 10:59 PM

I agree with you here. There is a bloodletting coming and it won't be pretty.

"Well, you and Stevo posted essentially identical "but, but, McGreevey" posts one after the other in the finest conservative "but, but, Clinton" tradition, so I figured you were a couple of "other priority" College Republicans with their usual fine aesthetic sensibilities. How was I to know you were just a Jersey guy who will never get over the fact that his state was once run by one of "the gays"?

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 29, 2007 9:56 PM

I was responding to Ross' post in a calm and measured manner, and was simply pointing out a factual error in his post which undermined his entire point. McGreevey cruised truckstops, bookstores and restrooms just like Craig did, and was never comfortable being gay. Hell, his entire book is about his not being comfortable and hiding his homosexuality. Interesting that you keep using straw man arguments against me, instead of explaining how Governor McGreevey using his office to block gay marriage in NJ is different from Senator Craig voting for the DOMA, while both are engaging in the same sexual practices.

As for the Jersey Guy crack, I never cared that McGreevey was gay. His rampant corruption was what bugged me about the guy, but corrupt politicians are a NJ tradition.

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