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The Courage of Their Convictions

20 Aug 2007 09:56 am

I don't usually get annoyed by Hollywood's politics, but I was traveling this weekend (hence the lack of blogging), and my two plane rides offered time enough to read through Entertainment Weekly's fall movie preview issue - which was time enough to be consistently irritated. (This will be a great autumn, I'm afraid, for Very Serious Political Dramas.) Though maybe my irritation had less to do with the politics per se than the frequent protestations about how the movies in question don't take sides in any ideological fight. Start with Reese Witherspoon discussing Rendition, "a sober political drama about a pregnant Midwestern woman who discovers that her Egyptian husband ... is being secretly held by the U.S. government." (It looks pretty sober to me.) She explains:

"It doesn't smash people over the head with a message - you're not even sure if the husband is guilty or innocent - which is one of the reasons I wanted to do it," Witherspoon says. "It represents different cultures in a real human way."

Hey, maybe so. I'm more willing to give Witherspoon the benefit of the doubt than I am Paul Haggis and his new Iraq War drama, In the Valley of Elah:

A film about the effects of war on soldiers when they return home is certainly not an easy sell. "I think it is going to be upsetting," says Sarandon, who plays the soldier's mothers. "I don't think people want to know the damage that war is doing to our men." But Haggis doesn't see Elah as a political film. "It doesn't matter if you thought going into Iraq was right or wrong," he says. "Let's set all that side and ask, 'What's the hidden human cost?' I have the same hope for [Elah] that I had for Crash - that it'll stir debate, that people will walk out of the theater arguing and talking about what's happening in America."

Uh-huh. Similarly, The Golden Compass, adapted from Philip Pullman's Narnia-for-atheists trilogy, is apparently just a story about a clash between a generic good and a generic evil, and any resemblance between the bad guys and any major Western religion is entirely coincidental:

Conspicuously absent, for instance, is any reference to Catholicism; instead, the malevolent organization that snatches children to surgically remove their souls is referred to in the movie only as the Magisterium. "It has been watered down a little," admits Kidman, who stars as the icily evil Mrs. Coulter. Not that she's complaining. Quite the contrary. "I was raised Catholic," she says. "The Catholic Church is part of my essence. I wouldn't be able to do the film if I thought it were at all anti-Catholic."

I'm not sure which I prefer - this kind of gutless BS, or straightforward anti-Catholicism. Fortunately, I don't have to choose; this autumn will offer both sotto voce Catholic-baiting and the genuine article, in the form of the Cate Blanchett vehicle Elizabeth: The Golden Age:

The first Elizabeth took considerable flak from reviewers for its factual liberties ... this time, Kapur could get slammed for portraying King Philip II of Spain as a far more megalomaniacal religious crusader than records suggest - which plays into the movie's pointed contemporary overtones about the dangers of intolerance in an age of jihad.

Yes, a searing, historically-inaccurate critique of Catholic intolerance - how pointed! how contemporary! How bold! Contrast this with the obvious panic among the creators of The Kingdom, which tackles an actual-existing form of dangerous intolerance, that their film might be perceived to have any ideological content whatsoever:

Given the film's wrenching history, Berg is ... praying The Kingdom won't fuel Rambo-esque xenophobia or anti-American protests around the world. But so far, those worries seem unfounded. Not long after that Sacramento screening, the director nervously unspooled the film for a heavily Islamic London audience. To Berg's surprise, they reacted exactly the same way the Americans did — with an eruption of applause when good triumphs over terror.

After the credits rolled, Berg asked a young woman in traditional dress why she was clapping so enthusiastically. ''She said, ' Kick-ass action!''' recalls the director, his eyes widening in amazement. ''At that moment I realized we have so many misconceptions. The movie wasn't being looked at in terms of religion. It was just people accepting it as a story about people trying to stop extreme violence. And that's a universal thing.''

It's enough to make you pine for the straightforwardness of Robert Redford, director of Lions for Lambs (starring Tom Cruise in what is no doubt a wrenchingly realistic portrayal of a Republican Senator), and his screenwriter, Matthew Michael Carnahan, who wrote the script to "explore his deeply held political ideas." For instance:

"I don't want to sound like the standard Hollywood Democrat bashing the United States, but I'm so frustrated with our lack of memory," says the writer. "All of these enemies that we have now, they were our allies not long ago. Osama was our guy when he was aiming rockets at the Soviets." Redford also admits that Lions isn't exactly a balanced examination of the issues at hand. "It's hard to be impartial today if you want to make a statement about where our political system has taken us," he says.

Gentlemen, you are Hollywood Democrats bashing the United States, but your honesty is appreciated.

Comments (58)

Fighting wars by proxy can have unintended consequences? How searing! How raw! How bold!

Hollywood Perspectives, brought to you by Ecological Release.

Not Hollywood Democrats bashing the United States, Mr D. It's Hollywood Democrats and others bashing this administration and its policies. It seems that with the exception of the supposedly unsupported portrayal of King Phillip of Spain, your complaint is that these films and film makers are telling uncomfortable truths - illegal renditions, the emotional and physical hardships of returning soldiers and our often near-sighted foreign policy. Heaven forbid! Of course, as entertainer Stephen Colbert has noted, "The truth has a Liberal bias", so I can see how you would be upset by these films.

So was the movie '300' racist or what?

Just hunker down in your bunker and watch John Wayne's Green Beret movie over and over again, Ross.

Examining the US's role in arming or funding Osama is "bashing the United States"? I thought you were the "reasonable" conservative.
But you're right about one thing: any movie that displays a Republican Senator as a lying jerk would have to be pure fiction. There are no realistic examples of that. (Unless your snide comment merely meant Tom Cruise is unrealistically better looking than the average Senator. That is undoubtedly true.)

I don't get it. Have terror suspects not been secretly detained? Does war not have troubling effects on soldiers? Or should people not make movies about these things? If not, why not?

The Golden Compass is a dumb, dumb book and I'm sure the movie will be awful, but really I don't understand what you mean about the others.

Mr Podsnap’s notions of the Arts in their integrity might have been stated thus. Literature; large print, respectfully descriptive of getting up at eight, shaving close at a quarter past, breakfasting at nine, going to the City at ten, coming home at half-past five, and dining at seven. Painting and Sculpture; models and portraits representing Professors of getting up at eight, shaving close at a quarter past, breakfasting at nine, going to the City at ten, coming home at half-past five, and dining at seven. Music; a respectable performance (without variations) on stringed and wind instruments, sedately expressive of getting up at eight, shaving close at a quarter past, breakfasting at nine, going to the City at ten, coming home at half-past five, and dining at seven.

Ask yourself if any director in Hollywood would make "Not Without My Daughter" today. It was based on a true story, about an American woman and her daughter who were taken by her Iranian husband to Tehran to meet his family, and ended up being held by him and his family against their will in Iran. After 18 months of being subjected to abuse from her husband and his family, she and the daughter escaped to Turkey.

I think Ross' point is in asking for a little balance. There is nothing wrong in self-examining and recognizing your own shortcomings as a country. But it wouldn't be so bad if it were balanced out at all by a movie that points out that we actually have enemies - and presents an accurate portrayal of who they are. Instead, every bad guy in a movie having anything to do with foreign policy is the white, anti-government right-wing male (added bonus if he's a neo-Nazi).

And, in making the self-critical movies, it would help if they knew what they were talking about.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html

"CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen says the notion that Osama bin Laden once worked for the CIA is "simply a folk myth" and that there's no shred of evidence to support such theories."

I should note that Bergen has spent far more time researching al Qaeda and probably knows far more about Bin Laden, then the CIA's Bin Laden Unit ever will.

"explore his deeply held political ideas."

Oh, I see: they're deeply held political beliefs. Attention must be paid, then.

Ross, the Catholic Church has been responsible for a bunch of very bad things. Two of them are its complicity in Spanish colonialism and the systematic encouragement, transfer, and cover-up of priests who took the preferred conservative positions on social issues but also sexually abused thousands of children entrusted to the Church's care.

People are going to make movies about these things. And they are going to criticize the Church. And like all movies, they are going to exagerrate the villains, because that's what movies do. The Church isn't getting any treatment that Max Baer Sr. didn't get in "Cinderella Man", for instance.

The fact of the matter is, while the Church does much good, its hierarchy has been implicated in some profoundly evil activities. And many things that the Church does and many positions it takes are controversial. People are going to criticize the Church, both in the nonfiction and fiction realms. Labeling that "anti-Catholicism", as if that is a form of bigotry rather than criticism, just exposes your thin skin.

Hey, if you want ideological balance, all it would take is a few rich conservatives taking some of their money out of Bahamian shell corporations and non-traditional structured investment vehicles, and investing it in the production of very serious movies of their own.

Let's see a serious film about the hidden psychological costs of peace. Let's see a bold, unconventional action film that features Opus Dei saving the world from a secretive evil organization of academic feminist vampires. Let's see a historical revisionist epic that portrays Martin Luther as a corrupt, megalomaniacal fiend who attacks the one, true church out of spite.

And how about a nice, earnest drama about meddling liberals who close down Guantanamo and release all the prisoners into Mexico, after which they cross our unguarded border in a fleet of Toyota Priuses and try to blow up Las Vegas, but the plan is foiled when a right-wing blogger and a crack squad of gun-owning citizens torture an ACLU lawyer for information.

Serious political dramas don't write and produce themselves. Get to work.

I don't really see the anti-Americanism here, either. Seems like pretty standard lefty Hollywood stuff to me - and I'm sure it will all have the nuance of a two-by-four. What seems a bit funny to me is how much these folks want to be taken *seriously.* They're in the business of making people "think," right?

Any serious thinking requires some sort of reflection on one's own biases, preconceptions, ideological commitments, etc. What's silly about the posing Hollywood artiste is that they're primarily interested in reflection on other people's biases, preconceptions, etc. - they want to "deeply" engage the views of the booboisie, the residents of flyover country, etc. They don't dare - do they? - make films that explore their own and I would guess that's what Ross is reacting against. The pose of seriousness and sincerity here is just fictive cover for knocking the sins of others (and puffing up their own moral superiority to boot).

Of course, I'd be interested in hearing from Mr. D what sorts of films he wishes *were* being made.

Dilan:

cover-up of priests who took the preferred conservative positions on social issues but also sexually abused thousands of children entrusted to the Church's care

Hrm. Is there really any evidence that it was particularly done for priests who took orthodox positions on those issues? I thought a good number of the abusers came from the more, er, new agey and "pink" seminaries, and were at least occasionally more of the father-Bob-with-his-guitar type. Were they disproportionately orthodox, or just not real rabble-rousers who annoyed the local hierarchy, of whatever stripe?

LaFollette:

a serious film about the hidden psychological costs of peace

In a sense, isn't The Lives of Others such a thing? I think you're being funny, but even anti-interventionists on left and right, of a serious sort, know there is a psychological cost to certain kinds of peace -- false peace, a peace founded on terrible injustice, etc. That the anarchy of war may not be preferable, even given that cost, is also true.

"Of course, I'd be interested in hearing from Mr. D what sorts of films he wishes *were* being made."

That would require Ross to actually take a position and defend something, a true rarity. Good luck with the hoping, though.

"Gentlemen, you are Hollywood Democrats bashing the United States, but your honesty is appreciated."

Pay attention, political science students: This is the thoughtful attitude that's built the conservative movement into the fearsome political machine that will no doubt lead the Republicans to so many triumphs in the next few elections.

LaFollette Progressive, that'd be a hysterical movie -- or possibly the plot for the next "24." Really, you'd best get on the horn to Mr. Surnow.

Now, I wouldn't hold my breath for political balance in Hollywood movies, or even diversity. Holocaust movies notwithstanding, the main motivation for political films is pointing the finger at Western/American/white guilt. Hollywood generally has no motivation or desire to make films outside of this moralizing template, which are the the "uncomfortable truths" some of you are fond of. There are some notable exceptions -- The Last King of Scotland being the best and most recent example -- but I doubt many people could pass a politically-charged script that doesn't somehow lay blame at America's doorstep.

America's sins should be counted, but many are the sins of mankind. Focusing on the US ultimately denies not only history but also denies us some interesting, compelling, and at times terrifying stories.

At a time when Putin is reeducating Russians to love Stalin, where's the film about the Katyn Forest Massacre? The Ukrainian famine? Stalin's liquidation of Soviet Jews? Solzhenitsyn? Operation Keelhaul? For that matter, any chapter in The Black Book of Communism is a story that deserves telling.

I applaud Letters from Iwo Jima for showing the human side of the Japanese during the war. But that said, Hollywood should also consider exploring The Rape of Nanking; it even comes ready-made with implausible-but-real people like John Rabe.

Given the animus bubbling up against Chinese products and the like, not to mention Hollywood's interest in Buddhism, the Chinese government should prove an acceptable target, but where are the films that look at the Great Leap Forward? The Cultural Revolution? Anyone who has lived in China and talked to that generation of Chinese know that they bear scars as deep as any survivor of the Holocaust, yet their stories are never told, and like the Holocaust survivors, these people are dying out. More obviously, to speak to an event that resonates among younger people in the West, has anyone tried to make a movie about the Square? Is Hollywood so afraid of angering the Chinese government and losing market share that these films cannot be made?

Kim Jong-il is a perfect cartoon villain and deserves the mockery he gets in Team America, but has there been any attempt to look inside the Hermit Kingdom in a serious manner? Has any film documented the North's terrorism against South Korea -- the bombings, hijackings, and the like? (And don't say it's South Korea's duty to explore this, since their filmmakers have mutated from the right-wing B-movie hacks of 30 years ago to the left-wing hacks of today -- and they'll never touch this stuff.)

The Last King of Scotland, Blood Diamond and Hotel Rwanda have moved us in the direction of exploring African politics more realistically -- though Blood Diamond again plays on white guilt rather than examining Charles Taylor's greed and bloodlust -- but too many Hollywood films about Africa fit into the narrative model of The Constant Gardener -- that of imperialism and capitalism vs. the poor people of Africa. But Africa's political problems are bigger than this. Where is a sober film about African nations' rape of the Congo? Can filmmakers find the time to tackle the issue of AIDS in Africa? Should we wait until Robert Mugabe dies before a film can document how his hopeful beginnings unraveled into a spiral of evils?

Look, balance doesn't mean that we have to be force-fed right-wing crap -- I would loathe the Fox Newsification of any motion picture studio. Balance, however, does require that we look at the world entire instead of perpetually "holding up the mirror to our own faces." Doing so may deny our filmmakers their chance to make smug awards speeches where they point out America's flaws, but it will bring us closer to a real picture of history in our motion pictures.

P.S. Marquis, kudos on mentioning The Lives of Others.

Note that The Lives of Others (a great movie) was made by Germans who lived through the events described.

I'm not saying Hollywood's criticisms of America come from deep personal experience--they often do not, and if Ross had made an argument like the one Michael Simmpson makes above I would have largely agreed with it--but certainly Americans are better able to criticize their own country than other countries. Do you really think an American could, or should, have made The Lives of Others?

I also don't buy the idea that Hollywood is beholden to some leftist ideology that determines the movies they make. It seems to me that they are beholden to the market, and there isn't a market for patriotic movies of the kind Ross seems to be calling for. To be sure there is a market for patriotic movies, but American moviegoers seem to like their patriotism really, really bland--vague stories of American-y uplift like all the superhero movies, for example. If there were a market for movies that looked at what is actually going on the world in detail, from a pro-American perspective, someone would be making such movies. But people find that stuff boring and/or scary.

And, in making the self-critical movies, it would help if they knew what they were talking about.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html

"CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen says the notion that Osama bin Laden once worked for the CIA is "simply a folk myth" and that there's no shred of evidence to support such theories."

Thanks for posting the link. I think the problem with propaganda pieces like Redford’s though is that if he keeps repeating the lie about “Osama used to be our guy” often enough, people will start to believe it.

Then again it could be like the film adaptation of “V for Vendetta” where we didn’t see any noticeable increase in the number of nutters who think the United States government staged 9/11.

Frankly, your eminence (how does one address a Marquis?), I was thinking more along the lines of a very serious film in which a peaceful and prosperous America gets fat and lazy and dies of boredom.

Yes, there are certainly costs inherent to making peace with tyranny rather than confronting it on the battlefield, and yes, The Lives of Others would be a fair example of a good film that fits the bill. But it's a bit ridiculous for Ross, or anyone else, to complain that films about the psychological costs of war are somehow inherently "liberal" or constitute "bashing the United States."

Marquis:

Actually, there is evidence that the Church protected people who were social conservatives but complicit in the molestations. My local Cardinal, Roger Mahony, is one example. But the best example is a guy named (I think) Father Maciel in Mexico, who was very high up in Opus Dei and also deeply involved in the molestations.

The fact is, the hierarchy has punished people such as the liberation theologians who deviated from orthodoxy on social issues, while protecting people who abused children or covered up the abuse. The former was seen as the greater sin.

Father Maciel was not involved with Opus Dei; he founded a different conservative order, the Legionaires of Christ.
Cardinal Mahoney is unquestionably the most liberal of the American cardinals. He is against abortion, of course, as all bishops are, at least in public, but he is hostile to the Tridentine Mass, is chummy with pro-choice politicians like the late Edward Roybal, has publicly tangled with Mother Angelica, has rarely if ever cracked down on heretical theologians, and reserves the greater part of his energy and enthusiasm for liberal causes like illegal immigration amnesty.

Actually, there is evidence that the Church protected people who were social conservatives but complicit in the molestations.

Sure. But did it do so more so than moderates, liberals, or guys-with-no-known positions (which would include a lot of priests, to listen to a random homily -- most priests are in favor of love and Jesus, and surprisingly little more specific than that)?

The theologians who got smacked down attracted lots of attention at a non-local level, in a public way. And most unorthodox theologians haven't been smacked down. But the smackdowns I know of mostly weren't local political bishops, they were distant Rome with little aim to keep peace around the homefront.

The notion of Mahoney as a big protector of conservatives rather than a cynical slick political operator trying to "avoid trouble" (he's my bishop too, God bless him) of fairly blandly liberal positions except where it most obviously crashes with Catholic teaching -- well, I just don't buy it.

I think Ross is mostly just grumbling here. Yes, Hollywood tends to make the more predictable type of political features, for reasons given by all posters. And tends to be smug about it. So? In this case, I actually think they're _right_, marketplace-wise -- as someone says, thoughtful _conservative_ political pictures don't have much audience. They'd have to be awful good to get acclaim. While a semi-thoughtful liberal piece has a decent (if not huge) audience and can count on awards/critical prestige for a bit more.

James:

FYI, Mahony is hugely anti-abortion and anti-contraception and anti-gay rights and got promoted because he stood in opposition to clergy who were trying to promote a more social justice-oriented role for the Catholic Church (for instance, in the Sanctuary movement). He may look liberal to you (no Catholic cardinal in LA is going to be against illegal immigration, simply because of who comes to Church every Sunday), but he was clearly a conservative and is seen as one within the hierarchy.

Marquis:

I think we agree on Ross' point. The truth is, some types of "conservative" pictures DO sell-- "The Passion of the Christ" is a great example. But Hollywood isn't stupid (despite its liberal bent), and if all they did was make a bunch of pictures to piss off conservatives without regard to what sells, they would stop making money and someone would march in (as Gibson essentially did with "Passion").

But there is also clearly a market out there for films that some Catholics get offended by. That's really to be expected. I think we can all agree that not everyone in the world has the same opinion and level of respect for the Church. (I should note that despite the fact that some people have accused me of anti-Catholicism, I have a lot of respect for the Church, and not just on the touchy-feely liberal economic and social justice issues. I think it is great that the Church has a longstandng tradition of endorsing human reason (e.g., Augustine, Aquinas) rather than blind fundamentalism.)

The other thing I would say is that the Church has quite a bit of power in the world. They have a seat at the United Nations by virtue of a contrived nation-state, something no other religious hierarchy possesses. In many places, the Church is a powerful political lobby. Many people-- and not just Catholics-- pay great respect to the statements of the Pope. And a lot of us think that many of the Church's teachings are profoundly wrong, and that they have consequences.

Given this, it is a little unrealistic to expect that people aren't going to criticize Catholicism (and that sometimes the criticisms, like all criticisms, will be over-the-top, exaggerated, hyperbolic, offensive, or simply wrong). To give a pretty obvious example, the Church's position on gay rights obviously has quite a bit of influence in many parts of the world. It's completely understandable that gays and lesbians, those who have gays and lesbian family members, and those who care about the welfare of gays and lesbians are often going to express criticisms of the Church, in harsh terms. The Church seeks out for itself a very public role with respect to these issues. It wants a place at the table. Criticism-- including unfair criticism-- comes with that territory. Accusing the critics of bigotry doesn't recognize that reality.

Dilan Esper writes: "FYI, Mahony is hugely anti-abortion and anti-contraception and anti-gay rights and got promoted because he stood in opposition to clergy who were trying to promote a more social justice-oriented role for the Catholic Church (for instance, in the Sanctuary movement). He may look liberal to you (no Catholic cardinal in LA is going to be against illegal immigration, simply because of who comes to Church every Sunday), but he was clearly a conservative and is seen as one within the hierarchy."

This was/is also true of Boston's Cardinal Law, a true scumbag who protected numerous pedophiles and was promoted for it. He's at the Vatican now - no penance for him.

Really; what about the adaptation of Bing West's
account of the Battle of Fallujah, which was to have Harrison Ford star as Gen. Mattis or the Michael Yon "Five Deuces" which was to have Bruce Willis, in it. The" Lions for Lambs" is against the war in Afghanistan; something I thought liberals were for. Does Carnahan, really think because some of the mujahadeen that fought the Soviets, were among the ones who later joined AQ like Sheik Haquani, and Hekmatyar are our opponets now (actually the more aggressive fighters were Massoud, Abdul Haq et murdered by the Taliban). "The Kingdom" does seem to have a better shot; with its mix of procedural/action film; I get that from the trailer. Paul Haggis
lecturing us again in "Valley of Elah" I guess
it's this generation's "Deer Hunter". Among book adaptations are "The Faithful Spy" which involved
American spies in AQ & "Body of Lies" another Monahan vehicle, directed by Ridley Scott, which
is the "Departed" in Iraq & Jordan.

I think Ross's point is that these films are almost guaranteed to lose money, [see Jarhead, Syriana, The Good German, etc.] while films like The 300 show an audiance out there craving entertainment that doesn't show western/US culture as the focus of evil in the world. The mind-set of Hollywood is that they would rather bankrupt their studios than participate in such jingoism.

"FYI, Mahony is hugely anti-abortion and anti-contraception and anti-gay rights and got promoted because he stood in opposition to clergy who were trying to promote a more social justice-oriented role for the Catholic Church (for instance, in the Sanctuary movement). He may look liberal to you (no Catholic cardinal in LA is going to be against illegal immigration, simply because of who comes to Church every Sunday), but he was clearly a conservative and is seen as one within the hierarchy."

Dilan Esper,

When you called Fr. Maciel "very high up in Opus Dei" I didn't think you could lose any more credibility on this issue but with the above quote you've managed to.

Re: Mahoney.

As a Catholic living in Los Angeles, I can vouch for the fact that Roger Mahoney is the mortal enemy of orthodox Catholics in the archdiocese. He is DEEPLY hostile to the old Mass, asks pastors to remove the tabernacle from church sanctuaries, refuses to meet with conservative church groups, restricts the growth of Opus Dei, has asked the faithful to stand during the consecration, openly criticized the election of Benedict XVI, closed seminaries, ordained openly gay deacons, etc. etc. To suggest that he is a conservative in the Church betrays an ignorance of Church politics that would be funny if it weren't so strange. As someone said above he is the most liberal Cardinal in the United States and among the most liberal in the world.

If Mahoney is the champion of orthodoxy, heaven help us all. He isn't OPENLY HERETICAL, and pays some lip service on social issues, I guess. But this is the guy who got all cranky about Catholic anti-abortion groups doing "politics" outside churches -- then had every priest read his canned little statement on immigration at every Mass.

Where on earth did you get the idea that Mahoney is conservative? He's not a liberation theologian, I guess, but they're rather thin on the ground in North America.

narciso writes: "Really; what about the adaptation of Bing West's account of the Battle of Fallujah, which was to have Harrison Ford star as Gen. Mattis or the Michael Yon "Five Deuces" which was to have Bruce Willis, in it."

It's a bit much to ask investors to throw money at a gape-mouthed paean to the nobility and accomplishment of a failed and discredited war. There's a reason why "The Green Berets" is regarded as a hokey joke flick now while "The Deer Hunter" is the iconic film about America's Vietnam trauma.

But maybe you could get a group of Kristols and Rumsfelds and Podhortzes together to invest in your ideal Iraq vehicle. Some suggested titles:

The Blair/Bush Project
Killing Field Of Dreams
Last Throes In Baghdad (Just think of the possibilities of a Cheney sodomy scene.)
They Shoot Sunnis, Don't They?
F'd Troops

Dilan, when you described Mahoney as a "social conservative", I laughed out loud. Thanks, you made my day!

On the other hand, I'm a Catholic who has no problems with a movie like Queen Margot; I know the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre really happened. So I can't understand why Michael Medved is so upset with a movie like September Dawn. I probably won't vote for Mitt, but not because he wants to kill all the "Gentiles".

I'm guessing the reason Ross didn't mention September Dawn here is because he's saving his comments for the print review.

Not only is liberation theology to the left of Mahony, but Mahony's biggest enemy in LA is the Catholic Worker organization, which is well to his left.

Look, all you guys have established is that apparently conservatives don't like him either. But he was clearly a conservative candidate who earned his stripes opposing the Sanctuary movement and left-wing social justice oriented theology.

If what conservatives want, in LA, is a person who will end up with nobody in the pews because they come out opposed to illegal immigration, you are never going to get that type of conservative. The Church is not suicidal.

But Mahony arose over the objections of the liberals and with the support of the conservatives.

Finally, the Latin Mass was not promoted by John Paul II, the saint of the conservatives. Mahony was following church policy in refusing to promote it. So by the same logic, John Paul II was a liberal, right?

And I apologize, Father Maciel founded the ultra-conservative Legion of Christ, rather than being associate with the ultra-conservative Opus Dei, while he was sodomizing kids.

Some people say John Paul II was a liberal. (Google "kissed the Koran.") I wouldn't go that far, but he was less conservative than he was portrayed in the media. However, he did allow the old Mass at the option of the local bishop, which bishops like Mahony often refused to give or gave only under tight conditions. Benedict XVI eliminated the middleman and allowed each priest to make his own decision.

Er, Catholic Worker dislikes Mahoney because he spent six kazillion dollars on the new cathedral, as part of his buddy-buddy-with-the-local-politicos boosterism. If your point is that Mahoney is more an unprincipled go-getter than a raving social gospel reformer. Where did you get the "Mahoney rose with the support of conservatives, over liberal objections" story? If true, it is not common knowledge. I don't expect Mahoney to be a heavy border-guard guy, and that's not particularly why I think of him as a (politically astute) liberal.

But he's certainly not the standard bearer for orthodoxy or traditionalism. He's a politician with a bishop's chair.

Marquis:

You need to go back and read the LA Weekly's articles about Mahony's rise-- these are now about 20 years old. He was very much the candidate of the right and was opposed by the Catholic Worker and Sanctuary types then as well as now. The big issue was his opposition to the Sanctuary movement, at a time when a lot of LA clergy were endorsing it (there were quite a few Salvadorean and Guatemalan refugees illegally in LA at the time). As I recall, organized labor didn't like him very much either, though I can't remember why. He was certainly very clubby with LA's conservative business elite-- people like Richard Riordan, who later became Mayor.

I am getting the picture that some conservatives who became aware of Mahony AFTER he became Cardinal didn't like him because of his work on immigration issues and the Latin Mass (as I said, in the latter case, he was acting perfectly consistently with John Paul II). But the alternatives to Mahony were on the left, not the right.

This post:

http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1990/LT901212.html

Recounts what happened in the mid-1980's, before Mahony was elevated to Cardinal. Essentially he tried to slap down Father Olivares, who was one of the big Sanctuary priests here in Southern California, when Olivares suggested that the church violate the law to protect immigrants.

This is representative of what Mahony represented in the 1980's. I do see there's a lot of right-wing criticism of the guy regarding illegal immigrants in the last decade or so, but he was clearly aligned with the right and not the left when he attained his position.

(Again, I would also say that no LA cardinal or archbishop, no matter how conservative, will ever oppose illegal immigration, despite the demands of conservatives. This is simply a nonstarter given who the parishoners are.)

Dilan,

I think you're talking the economic/good-buddy-chamber-of-commerce conservative/liberal and we're talking the liturgy/morals conservative/liberal. I have no reason to think Mahoney is particularly conservative on anything but (once upon a time) immigration. Of course Mahoney isn't going to oppose immigration, but his grandstanding nonsense advocating civil disobedience to a law that he pretty much made up in his head, and the endless "statements on immigration" read to every parish isn't the minimum required to avoid revolt, I assure you.

That, combined with some of his hostility to anti-abortion groups and buddy-ness with pro-choice politicians who can advance him, make him very hard to defend as poster boy for the right.

Also, did I start this "MahonEy" business? For some reason that's an attractive "typo" for me.

Dilan Esper,

From the article you to which you link:

Mahony has been "very effective in providing a sense of vision," particularly on issues of social justice, Olivares says. "But his methodology for getting things done takes a lot of time. Meanwhile, those of us on the front lines have to deal with the problems at our church door." . . . . .

Mahony called Olivares a man of commitment and courage who "aroused the conscience of us all as we try to understand our responsibilities toward newly arrived peoples and those whose lives are not sheltered by laws and protections."

Yeah, sounds like the Cardinal really stuck it to Olivares.

There may be a difference over tactics or how far to take things but there is not much to indicate from the article that Mahony and Olivares are really from different sides of the ideological spectrum.

Mark:

That's the way the Church works. What do you expect him to say? "You're gonna burn in hell"?

Rather, Mahony rather publicly called Olivares to account for his advocacy of Sanctuary. That's about as far as an archbishop will go in these situations. He was definitely the conservative choice for archibishop of LA, though.

Again, I have a feeling the myth of Mahony's "liberalism" has a lot to do with anti-hispanic bigots mostly from other parts of the country who see everyone through the lens of the immigration issue and are ticked off that Mahony defends illegal immigrants.

Dilan,

You haven't answered my distinction. What evidence is there that Mahony is on the right on any issue other than, er, Olivares and Sanctuary? That is, is there anything you have a reference to suggesting he got the spot as a "social issues" conservative?

On abortion, Mahony's been one of the most supportive of pro-abortion Catholic politicians, and has indulged in endless (and theologically suspect) "seamless garment" babble, such as suggesting that, well, death penalty supporters also shouldn't be allowed communion. Which suggests he either is completely ignorant of actual distinctions in teaching (and canon law points from which some of this arises) or is not terribly concerned about the issue at all.

I understand that Mahony is such an operator and unpleasant duplicitous figure that no side particularly wants to claim him, but casting him as an arch-conservative is... well, I'll need more evidence than Dilan's brought up. Yes, he isn't a liberation theologian. This is a bit north of the Rio Grande for that to fly. Who was the _liberal_ candidate for bishop against Mahony, and did this person have any actual chance at the spot?

That's the way the Church works. What do you expect him to say? "You're gonna burn in hell"?

First of all, you're not responding to the substance of my comment. Forget what Cardinal Mahony said about Fr. Olivares. Fr. Olivares himself is complimentary of the Cardinal's views on social justice issues. The article you cite simply does not portray Cardinal Mahony as some sort of advisary of Fr. Olivares. The worst that can be said (from Fr. Olivares' perspective) is that Cardinal Mahony wanted to force him to obey federal laws w/r/t/ hiring (after fed. officials approached Mahony on the issue). When Fr. Olivares refused Cardainal Mahony backed down.

He was definitely the conservative choice for archibishop of LA, though.

Oh. Well. If he definitely was the conservative choice then you must be right.

For all the whiny pro-Vatican posters - here's a film that shows a priest in a positive light in regards to the child rape issue. Sleepers, the Brad Pitt/Robert DeNiro/Kevin Bacon flick which showed DeNiro playing a priest lying under oath in order to get a small measure of justice for some victims of child molestation.

Of course the film is (apparently) fictional, but DeNiro's character showed greater moral courage than the entire Catholic Church did during the (still ongoing) child rape scandals.

Pope Ratzinger's considered opinion is that the victims should shut up and let the Church handle their complaints. Of course the Church "handled" such non-public complaints by ignoring them or shuffling the molestors over to fresh, uh, "pastures."

And they made the guy Pope as a reward for his, uh, deep spirituality. Yeah, that was it.

Pope Ratzinger's considered opinion is that the victims should shut up and let the Church handle their complaints.

Where and when did he say this (or anything approaching this)?

Don't hold your breath for evidence from Moe when he's insulting anyone Christian. He's interested in this as sport, not as dialogue.

Don't hold your breath waiting for The Missionary of Catholicism to ever admit Ratzinger or the Church ever behaved badly in regards to the massive child rape scandals.

"JAMIE DOWARD, OBSERVER, UK - Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret. The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week.

Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a 'clear obstruction of justice'. . .Ratzinger's letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been 'perpetrated with a minor by a cleric.' The letter states that the church's jurisdiction 'begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age' and lasts for 10 years.

It orders that 'preliminary investigations' into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger's office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the 'functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests'.'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.

The letter is referred to in documents relating to a lawsuit filed earlier this year against a church in Texas and Ratzinger on behalf of two alleged abuse victims. By sending the letter, lawyers acting for the alleged victims claim the cardinal conspired to obstruct justice. Daniel Shea, the lawyer for the two alleged victims who discovered the letter, said: 'It speaks for itself. You have to ask: why do you not start the clock ticking until the kid turns 18? It's an obstruction of justice.'Father John Beal, professor of canon law at the Catholic University of America, gave an oral deposition under oath on 8 April last year in which he admitted to Shea that the letter extended the church's jurisdiction and control over sexual assault crimes.

The Ratzinger letter was co-signed by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone who gave an interview two years ago in which he hinted at the church's opposition to allowing outside agencies to investigate abuse claims.'In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offence of paedophilia is unfounded,' Bertone said. Shea criticised the order that abuse allegations should be investigated only in secret tribunals. 'They are imposing procedures and secrecy on these cases. If law enforcement agencies find out about the case, they can deal with it. But you can't investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10 the priest will get away with it,' Shea added.

A spokeswoman in the Vatican press office declined to comment when told about the contents of the letter. 'This is not a public document, so we would not talk about it,' she said."

More on the Ratzinger child rape coverups:

""I would say he has the pope eating out of his hand. Who is going to touch him no matter what he does?" said J. Paul Lennon, a member of the Legion of Christ for 23 years, who has since left and has been helping those claiming to be victims. "He's untouchable."

Lennon said Macial is a master of Vatican politics: "He's worked with several popes, knows the inner workings, knows monsignors, knows cardinals, knows maybe the men who are really in power, knows that so well, so well."

Then, four years ago, some of the men tried a last ditch effort, taking the unusual step of filing a lawsuit in the Vatican's secretive court, seeking Macial's excommunication.

Once again they laid out their evidence, but it was another futile effort — an effort the men say was blocked by one of the most powerful cardinals in the Vatican.

The accusers say Vatican-based Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican office to safeguard the faith and the morals of the church, quietly made the lawsuit go away and shelved it. There was no investigation and the accusers weren't asked a single question or asked for a statement.

He was appointed by the pope to investigate the entire sex abuse scandal in the church in recent days. But when approached by ABCNEWS in Rome last week with questions of allegations against Maciel, Ratzinger became visibly upset and actually slapped this reporter's hand.

"Come to me when the moment is given," Ratzinger told ABCNEWS, "not yet."

"Cardinal Ratzinger is sheltering Maciel, protecting him," said Berry, who expressed concerns that no response was being given to the allegations against the man charged with sex abuse. "These men knelt and kissed the ring of Cardinal Ratzinger when they filed the case in Rome. And a year-and-a-half later, he takes those accusations and aborts them, just stuffs them." "

The Church hierarchy as a whole (particularly in the US, which is what I know most about in this respect -- though I've read that Ireland was pretty awful too) behaved abominably, with some notable exceptions. But in general, the American bishops were disgraceful, many were essentially culpable, and some were (I would guess) criminal.

I've said that before, and see no reason to deny it.

I do think most of the blame assigns to a relatively small number of guilty priests (comparable, as far as I've seen to the number of abusers in schools or Protestant youth ministry) and those (bishops and others) who covered for them, rather than on everyone associated with the Church.

I think some of Ratzinger's decisions were probably unwise, but I think your characterizations were unfair -- and the stories (like the ones you quoted) tend to be a series of quotes from lawyers for those claiming abuse, which isn't the most neutral analysis.

Didn't Benedict also re-open the case, shortly before the death of JP II? And was probably the key factor in the decision to ask Maciel to retire from priesthood and live in penance? The Vatican _is_ a bit like the Kremlin, in that it's hard to tell precisely what machinations are moving behind the scenes to produce the appearances we see, of course. But this is not the entire story, Moe.

Marquis, I take note of Mahony's statements all the time, and he is unambiguously pro-life AND anti-contraception.

If your position is that as long as the Cardinal ALSO vehemently opposes the death penalty, he's liberal, that's a silly position. Pope Benedict opposed executing SADDAM HUSSEIN! I understand there is a debate in the Church about HOW fervently the Church should oppose the death penalty, and how broad should the "exceptions" be, but there is no doubt that the Church, as it currently stands, EFFECTIVELY opposes capital punishment in all circumstances. If one opposes Saddam's execution, that pretty well means one is anti-death penalty.

Given that, I don't see how Mahony's opposition to the death penalty makes him anything other than doctrinaire Catholic.

Beyond that, I would really have to dig up the LA Weekly articles from 20 years ago to go through all the internecine battles that led to Mahony's ascension. But I do remember clearly that he was the conservative candidate, that the left bitterly opposed him, and he was chosen, in part, because he would be more loyal to Rome than other candidates, especially on the Sanctuary issue. And he is still clearly a conservative force in LA-- he is constantly protested by liberal groups.

I continue to believe that the reason he seems to be viewed as "liberal" by some is because he supports his undocumented parishoners, which, again, is an entirely orthodox position of the Church, especially in Los Angeles. But racists who mostly don't live in LA and who fear Hispanics don't seem to like it very much.

TMoC writes: "I think some of Ratzinger's decisions were probably unwise, but I think your characterizations were unfair -- and the stories (like the ones you quoted) tend to be a series of quotes from lawyers for those claiming abuse, which isn't the most neutral analysis."

You said I wouldn't provide evidence. I provided it. You then quibble about the source.

The source references a specific letter from Ratzinger. I could find other sources, but we both know the letter is genuine and that Ratzinger did, indeed, want such complaints against clerics handled within the Church. The coverup went to the very top, and Ratzinger, an aider and abettor of pedophiles, was elected Pope in spite of behavior that would gag a maggot.

And yes, he did reopen the Maciel case after JPII died. So what? He failed to do the right thing when it would have mattered. He did very wrong things quite deliberately. Why say anything less?

Dilan,

You seem to think Mahony must be right-wing, in terms of the church, if he is pro-life and anti-contraception, on the record. If so, there aren't any non-arch-conservative bishops in the US. Which makes the distinction rather meaningless, no?

Nobody pro-choice or pro-contraception is going to become a bishop in the US. Yes, Mahony has sexual morality opinions on the right. So do all US Catholic bishops, at least in their public statements. Mahony is more friendly to pro-choice pols and than many bishops, which is one reason even some folks who LIVE IN LA like myself think he's not exactly conservative.

Marquis:

What pro-choice politicians are you talking about? Villaraigosa? Riordan? Do you really think that the Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles is not going to buddy up with the Mayor, especially since he wanted to build that Cathedral and then had the sex abuse scandal (and had the LA DA breathing down his neck for awhile)?

All I can tell you is that he was clearly the conservatives' choice in the 1980's. Maybe some conservatives have soured on him, though I would note that if you were really correct that conservatives in LA had done so in any great number, he wouldn't last as the Archbishop because we know how liberals feel about him. The websites that I looked at indicate a lot of folks from the rest of the country who don't like Hispanics very much and see him as an enemy in the fight against illegal immigration. That doesn't tell me very much.

Liberals have hated him for over 20 years. You really need to go back and look at the positions that were staked out when he was elevated to see where he really fit on the spectrum.

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