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The Silence of God

24 Aug 2007 04:03 pm

That Mother Teresa endured a long dark night of the soul will come as no surprise to anyone who read Carol Zaleski's essay on the subject several years ago, but the depth and duration of her spiritual crisis nonetheless has the capacity to shock, and to humble.

Naturally, Christopher Hitchens has something to say about it:

In 1948, Hitchens ventures, Teresa finally woke up, although she could not admit it. He likens her to die-hard Western communists late in the cold war: "There was a huge amount of cognitive dissonance," he says. "They thought, 'Jesus, the Soviet Union is a failure, [but] I'm not supposed to think that. It means my life is meaningless.' They carried on somehow, but the mainspring was gone. And I think once the mainspring is gone, it cannot be repaired." That, he says, was Teresa.

I think that this is a rather poor analogy for all sorts of reasons, but chiefly because it conflates the experiential and ideological aspects of religion. One can, certainly, experience religious faith as a kind of ideological belief - as the adherence to a compelling and all-encompassing system of thought that explains the world and one's purpose in it. And this sort of belief is arguably analogous to Western Communists' (misplaced) confidence in Marxism generally, and the Soviet Union specifically. But the "mainspring" of religious faith for most believers - and particularly for a mystic like Mother Teresa - is the personal experience of God as a being who loves them and communicates with them, rather than the intellectual experience of Catholicism (or some other specific faith tradition) as a philosophical system that persuades them. This is why most religious people remain religious while being entirely ignorant of anything resembling serious theology, and indeed, why religious bodies can exist and thrive with at best a minimal theological superstructure. The theology is an attempt to make sense of the experience; the experience itself the primary thing.

So if one set out to find a secular analogue to what Mother Teresa experienced in her encounters with the divine, a more appropriate sneering comparison for Hitchens to employ might be to people caught up, not in an ideological fervor, but in a cult of personality - people who believed in the Soviet Union not for Communism's sake but for Stalin's, or in Nazi Germany because they were mesmerized by Hitler. And then her dark night of the soul would be analogous to, say, banishment from the Great Dictator's inner circle, rather than to ideological disillusionment. This analogy would seem to suit some of Hitchens' purposes, since he's forever complaining that the Judeo-Christian God is a totalitarian despot; on the other hand, the thing about cults of personality is that the personality in question tends to be, you know, real, which is hardly a notion that Hitchens is likely to entertain where Mother Teresa's God is concerned.

And his unwillingness to even entertain it is one of the (many) reasons why Hitchens' brief against religion is so thin: An ideologue himself, he finds it easiest to argue against faith-as-ideology, while leaving largely untouched the more difficult and more important question of what we should make of faith-as-experience. Confronting the case of Mother Teresa, who experienced the presence and love of Jesus Christ intensely throughout her young adulthood and (understandably) made these experiences the basis for her career as a missionary nun, Hitchens is like a man who seeks to disprove not only the faithfulness but the very existence of a woman's absent lover by arguing that her mind is held captive by a primitive, oppressive and dangerous theory of eros. Even if such an ideological critique were true (and obviously I find Hitchens unpersuasive on this count as well), it wouldn't get him where he wants to go, because the crucial question - whether the original experience itself is real; whether the now-absent lover still loves her, and whether he exists at all - would remain unanswered, and indeed unaddressed.

Comments (248)

Mother Teresa was like a young girl infatuated with a singer/pop star - let's call him Bobby Cassidy - who thinks she's in love with him and that the form letters she gets from his fan club are personal love letters. Then one day she finds out they're form letters and she hears he actually isn't the sweet guy he pretends to be on his TV show. She also starts to realize his records suck.

In most cases these girls throw out the records and the fan club crap and forget about Bobby Cassidy.

Not Mother Teresa. She went on telling everyone how special Bobby was and how much he loved her and how much he would love them, even though she didn't believe a word of it. And she did this for decades while watching people die. She even went on preaching against birth control because that's what Bobby would have done. Uh huh.

It's damned creepy. Hitchens may have gone crazy over Iraq but he's right on target about Teresa, a scam artist who built an empire on pain.

the distinction between ideology/theology and mysticism/experience is pretty important. that being said, i do think that some leftists viewed communism and its utopian eschatology with a hope which transcended the cult-of-personality. stalin was going to usher in the age of heaven upon earth, but when he died others could no doubt fill that same role.

Pretty sharp analysis. Having grown up in an evangelical community, I often wondered why so many Protestant Christian people I knew were so ignorant of what was actually in the Bible, while the Catholics and Mormons I knew really understood their stuff. I eventually came to the realization that, with the Protestants, their bond with God, was personal, emotional, and not based on an actual creed--they just felt that Jesus loved them. Which I found a little annoying, as my Christian faith was based more on reason and study than on mysticism and feeling, which I thought was silly, unserious, and arbitrary. It does seem as though that is how most people (and especially most evangelicals) see their relationship with God.

I'M STILL WAITING FOR ROSS DOUTHAT TO DEFEND THE TRUTH CLAIMS OF HIS OWN RELIGION.

(Or for someone to point me to any essay in which he does...)

razib writes: "i do think that some leftists viewed communism and its utopian eschatology with a hope which transcended the cult-of-personality. stalin was going to usher in the age of heaven upon earth, but when he died others could no doubt fill that same role."

Sure - Communism is very similar to Christianity in that regard. "You'll get pie in the sky when you die."

The revelation that, for all intents and purposes, "Mother" Teresa did not believe in God serves as a pretext for an attack on Christopher Hitchens. Meanwhile, Teresa's suffering is somehow an affirmation of faith. Displacement and denial--they'll get you through the night. One night, at least.

So now Teresa isn't a proper Catholic (saint and all) but a "mystic" whose belief in a (highly unCatholic) personal Lord and Savior legitimizes her in the eyes of another devout Catholic. Sure. Whatever.

Emphasis on *personal* that is. I don't know which amuses me more, the hierarchical Roman Catholic approach to Christianity or the solipsistic Protestant one. The one basically encourages the church to act like God, and the other basically encourages YOU to. Teresa, of course, wasn't self-absorbed AT ALL; her massive celebrity and money laundering didn't leave any time for that.

Man, the comments around here sure do get weird sometimes ...

Isn't there something in the Bible about "You shall know me by the Fruits" (of the Spirit) (sorry, not a great Biblical authority).

So, one could argue that, *even in her doubt* the Lord/Jesus/God was at work through her activities. She *did* manage to run a charity that provided succor to the most destitute of Indians.

Ah, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

I think most of us would be pretty satisfied to have provided as much improvement/comfort to individual lives as Mother Teresa did. In my understanding of Christianity, that puts one on the side of Jesus, regardless of one's "faith crisis." She certainly was a vessel of goodness.

She also provided "succor" to the Duvaliers of Haiti, cj, and her hospices denied painkillers to many patients and kicked dying men out for the great sin of drinking. But above that, she actively dissuaded poor Indian women from using birth control. You can try to make a case for the "goodness" of sitting around smiling while people die and procreate beyond their means as their children starve, but I'm fairly sure I won't be persuaded.

What made her more moral than Jack Kevorkian, who didn't lie to the people he cared for? Nothing. But he was imprisoned due to Christian morality, and she was lionized.

Theresa of Calcutta visited the US in 95 or 96 . I had the opportunity to duck out of the office during lunch to stand amongst the pilgrims trying to catch a glimpse of this living saint. The news this week makes me regret anew the fact that I squandered the chance in favor of paperwork. The world won't see her like again soon.

Pray for Hitchens's conversion.


It is a sad story.
It is a collective crime to a nice person.
It was a kind of coercive tortured life worse than a life time of worst ferderal prison for her.
and the crowd mob mockingly praised her into saint. what a joke and collective criminal attitude of worldy goodness while pushing a person into hell of life. ising praise, a joke.
If Jesus comes now, he will scold people committing crime in his name.
I applogize to her for our sham crime.
I embrace her with my warm friendship in a nice cruise ship travel. She doesn't need a saint after death, but many touching friends and joyful moments while she lived.
This is a mockery of truth in the name of Jesus.
Jesus will not premit this criminal mockery of evil poeple in his name, a contorted truth.

Jesus, Son of Man, forgive our collective crimnal joke to a nice person.

I met her on a few occasions, a private meeting left no doubt in my mind that she spent her whole life trying to answer the Mahatma's statement re her religion." I would consider being a Christian if I ever met one". She radiated the Life and Love of God as described in Newman's Jesus Prayer. "Let me shine so to shine as be a light to others, the Light oh Jesus will be all from you ,none of it will be ours, it will be You shining on those around us". True, true, true.

Theresa of Calcutta visited the US in 95 or 96 . I had the opportunity to duck out of the office during lunch to stand amongst the pilgrims trying to catch a glimpse of this living saint. The news this week makes me regret anew the fact that I squandered the chance in favor of paperwork. The world won't see her like again soon.

Pray for Hitchens's conversion.

*gag*

I met her on a few occasions, a private meeting left no doubt in my mind that she spent her whole life trying to answer the Mahatma's statement re her religion." I would consider being a Christian if I ever met one". She radiated the Life and Love of God as described in Newman's Jesus Prayer. "Let me shine so to shine as be a light to others, the Light oh Jesus will be all from you ,none of it will be ours, it will be You shining on those around us". True, true, true.

This perfectly encapsulates the typical solipsism of the religious mindset.

On the other hand, you could get over yourself and stop trying to be the Blessed Saint every waking minute. Constantly Radiating the Life and Love of God may go far towards turning yourself into a one-person institution and brand name, and thus inspiring devotion from vicarious hero worshippers. But I bet it'll do precious little to actually advance the well-being of people in actual need. Mother Teresa merely associated herself with the downtrodden in the name of proselytism; and the people she actually "helped" (i.e. "inspired") were basically idolaters like some of the commenters here -- i.e. people who would never dream of following in her footsteps. I'll take a Peace Corps volunteer any day. You admire an ascetic posing as a philanthropist.

Re: So now Teresa isn't a proper Catholic (saint and all) but a "mystic" whose belief in a (highly unCatholic) personal Lord and Savior legitimizes her in the eyes of another devout Catholic.

I'm not sure what your point in, but Catholic theology certainly embraces the mystic approach of an intensely personal experience of God. Therre have been more than a few saints who walked this path, inlcuding the two Teresas after whom this Teresa named herself (St Teresa of Avila and St Teresa of Liseux)

Re: What made her more moral than Jack Kevorkian, who didn't lie to the people he cared for?

"Dr" Kevorkian assisted depressed people in suicide. What's laudatory about that? As for the drinkers kicked out of the hospices, I suspect there was more to it than that. The Roman Catholic Church has no moral ban on alcohol. You might wish to consider that the drinkers were chronic alcoholics who actions were disruptive and perhaps even dangerous. Such people would have to be dealt with severely in any homeless shelter, hospital or hospice in this country too, and anywhere else.

I'm not sure what your point in, but Catholic theology certainly embraces the mystic approach of an intensely personal experience of God. Therre have been more than a few saints who walked this path, inlcuding the two Teresas after whom this Teresa named herself (St Teresa of Avila and St Teresa of Liseux)

I'll bear that in mind if I'm ever thinking about
"walking that path" and becoming a Catholic saint.

"Dr" Kevorkian assisted depressed people in suicide. What's laudatory about that?

Kevorkian really meant to relieve not people who were merely "depressed" rather in terminal and intolerable physical pain.

As for the drinkers kicked out of the hospices, I suspect there was more to it than that. The Roman Catholic Church has no moral ban on alcohol. You might wish to consider that the drinkers were chronic alcoholics who actions were disruptive and perhaps even dangerous. Such people would have to be dealt with severely in any homeless shelter, hospital or hospice in this country too, and anywhere else.

Uh huh. The only way any self-respecting homeless shelter can maintain normalcy is by keeping out the drinkers. Wouldn't want to disrupt or endanger the people already living in unhygienic squalor and busy dying of typhoid.

All this talk about religion is silly.

Saint T types: " I embrace her with my warm friendship in a nice cruise ship travel. She doesn't need a saint after death, but many touching friends and joyful moments while she lived.
This is a mockery of truth in the name of Jesus.
Jesus will not premit this criminal mockery of evil poeple in his name, a contorted truth.

Jesus, Son of Man, forgive our collective crimnal joke to a nice person."

Um, okay. How do you like writing for "The Onion," anyway?

An ideologue himself, he finds it easiest to argue against faith-as-ideology, while leaving largely untouched the more difficult and more important question of what we should make of faith-as-experience.

But the problem is, faith as experience is no threat to Christopher Hitchens or me or anyone else. But faith as ideology is. And too many believers may very well maintain personal faiths that are based on experience, but who insist nonetheless that the rest of us live by the ideology that they actually hold grave doubts about.

I think the mysticism of Catholocism and other great religions is deserving of great respect and tolerance. Nobody can walk into one of the great Catholic cathedrals of the world and not be awed. But if you don't want Christopher Hitchens types to treat your religion as an ideology, stop trying to impose those ideological beliefs on the rest of us.

This perfectly encapsulates the typical solipsism of the religious mindset.

Of course, secular people are never solipsistic. Hurray for them!

Dilan, perhaps you should look up the definition of "impose". Making claims about how things ought to be is not imposing.

About the birth control stuff -- it could be that Catholics aren't utilitarians. That is, their highest goal might not be the relieving of pain or the maximization of pleasure but encouraging of conduct that exemplifies (what they regard as) certain virtues -- e.g., temperance, etc. Now, it's a vexed question what to do with someone who you know is going to have sex, with or without birth control. Should you give the person birth control, effectively giving up on counseling them not to have premarital sex? Or should you not give the person birth control, knowing (well, not "knowing", but at least believing with justification) that they're going to have sex anyway?

For a utilitarian, the answer is easy: give them birth control, since there's nothing wrong with using birth control anyway. But for the Catholic non-utilitarian, the answer is not.

I suspect that most of you will think this simply shows the moral depravity of Catholicism. And maybe it does. But I suspect you would condemn any non-consequentialistic morality as depraved whenever it counsels acting in such a way that the good is not maximized.

I look forward to getting ridiculed for my stupidity and villainy, etc., etc.

"Religious experiences of God can only be explained by the existence of God."

1. Some people's experiences will be of a god who has reported features such that their experiences will be rejected as veridical by believers like Douthat and M. Theresa. When a dispute arises about earthly phenomena--about the fit between subjective experience and occurrences out there--we can all go out there, or access evidence indicative of what's going on out there, and determine which experience is veridical. When it comes to heavenly phenomena, to the supernatural, access is limited to subjective experience, and hence we can't get beyond it to settle what the experience really indicates.
2. There are on offer a number of plausible, non-supernatural, explanations of religious beliefs. (Atran's, Boyer's, Bloom's) If they're right, the quoted statement is false.
3. I gather that in her early years M. Theresa experienced the presence of God, and then for the many years later experienced only His painful absence. Suppose one grants the premise that subjective religious experience can be veridical. If so, might not the experience of the absence of God on the part of one desirous of and expert in experiencing Him be taken as experiential evidence of the non-existence of God?

Re: Sextus Empiricus's last question:

It would be really weird for someone to have a veridical experience of God and then a veridical experience of non-God -- it would imply that God existed until, what, 1948? And then died or something? I guess if you were empirically minded enough, maybe that would be true.

But regardless, it seems to me to be odd to imagine how you could have an experience of something's non-existence. What's the felt difference between someone's being away on a trip and someone's being out of existence altogether? I doubt there's much, if any, story to be told here, so I'm guessing that no, you can't an experience of the non-existence of God.

Sorry, by "non-God" I meant "God's not existing".

Bill, comments about "the religious mindset" (never mind the reductionism) might contribute more to a productive discussion if they weren't suffocating under the weight of that enormous chip on your shoulder.

I guess I'm from the pot-meet-kettle school. Why don't the Hitchens of the world see the possibility that their own psychology / experiences color and perhaps distort their conclusions? What about the delusions of various secular ideologies? What about the highest number of atrocities in human history being the fruit of secular ideologies? Or if a sharp distinction is drawn between these ideologies and the madmen (Stalin, Hitler) who distorted them, why do religious claims and those who distort them get conflated? It seems that our problems are not merely religious, but human.

Bobcat writes: "About the birth control stuff -- it could be that Catholics aren't utilitarians. That is, their highest goal might not be the relieving of pain or the maximization of pleasure but encouraging of conduct that exemplifies (what they regard as) certain virtues -- e.g., temperance, etc. Now, it's a vexed question what to do with someone who you know is going to have sex, with or without birth control. Should you give the person birth control, effectively giving up on counseling them not to have premarital sex? Or should you not give the person birth control, knowing (well, not "knowing", but at least believing with justification) that they're going to have sex anyway?"

I suppose I should respond to this since I brought up the issue of birth control. My comment about MT discouraging the use of birth control by poor Indian women isn't even remotely connected to any argument about 'premarital sex.' She condemned its use by MARRIED WOMEN. Your comment is a total non sequitur.

In a teeming slum, when married women wanted to use birth control in order to avoid having more children they couldn't feed, MT actively discouraged them from using any method but abstinence or the ever-popular rhythm method.

I'll bear that in mind if I'm ever thinking about
"walking that path" and becoming a Catholic saint.

That wasn't the point the Bill. The point was for you to stop writing on topics about which you appear to be entirely ignorant.

Someone who think mysticism and a personal relationship with Jesus to be at odds to Catholicism simply should not be writing about Catholicism.

or the ever-popular rhythm method

It's not the rhythm method. It's called natural family planning. And I use it. And it works.

Re: Kevorkian really meant to relieve not people who were merely "depressed" rather in terminal and intolerable physical pain.

A fair number of his victims were in the former category, not the latter. I seem to recall that there was one woman, though diagnosed with an incurable illness which would someday kill her, yet was hale and hardy enough to play a match of tennis shortly before her terminal appointment with the ghoulish doctor.
Now, there is indeed a problem with inadequete pain management in many terminal cases, I will grant you that-- and this is due in the main to the war of drugs which demonizes and perhaps crminalizes doctors who prescribe large quantities of narcotics. Nor do I have any trouble with the old and very common practice of giving the just-about-to-die patient narcotic doses sufficient to ease him or her peacefully out of life at the very end. But the notion that we should kill ourselves the moment we get unhappy health news strikes me as repugnant and cowardly. (FYI: I am a leukemia survivor so these issues are not merely hypothetical for me.)

Re: But if you don't want Christopher Hitchens types to treat your religion as an ideology, stop trying to impose those ideological beliefs on the rest of us.

I sometimes feel this way about the Religious Right too, especially when their homophobic demagogues are holding forth (I am gay). But then: I believe very firmly in the moral necessity of universal healthcare and at least some of that belief is grounded in my religion. Should I therefore be banned from speaking up on this issue, lest I too be guilty of trying to impose my ideology on others? Is it even possible to have a politics in which deeply held ideological beliefs do not come into sharp and sometimes fierce conflict with each other?

Re: In a teeming slum, when married women wanted to use birth control in order to avoid having more children they couldn't feed, MT actively discouraged them from using any method but abstinence or the ever-popular rhythm method.

I happen to regard the RC teaching on contraception as incoherent, absurd and flat out wrong. And yes, this is a blot on Mother Teresa and other modern Catholic workers in her tradition. But since when do we require saints to be infallible, or heroes to be impeccable? Let's recall that some of our own Founding Fathers owned slaves-- does that mean that we dare not admire their actions and ideas and even their character in matters not toucing on that particular evil?

Mark Adams-
My words were "personal Lord and Savior" not "personal relationship." Go study Catholicism yourself.

Actually, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, et al are rather spooked by seriously religious people. Hitchens, grasping at the straw of Mother Teresa's spiritual crisis, has little understanding or appreciation of the depth of faith that lasted to the end and caused her to build a fine arm of the Church.

My guess is that the recent spate of anti-religious books comes from a certain despair that radical secularism is being slowly but surely moved aside by a resurgence of serious religion. How else explain the influence people like John Paul II and Teresa, or even Neuhaus in the U.S.

Hitchens, grasping at the straw of Mother Teresa's spiritual crisis, has little understanding or appreciation of the depth of faith that lasted to the end and caused her to build a fine arm of the Church.

Or maybe, rather, he does possess such an understanding, and is in rebellion against his own nature. I personally think some of us will live to see this great man's religious conversion. It would truly be a miraculous sign.

But if you don't want Christopher Hitchens types to treat your religion as an ideology, stop trying to impose those ideological beliefs on the rest of us.

It doesn't bother me in the least when Hitchens treats my religion as an ideology, because it is an ideology. He's a first rate writer and polemicist in my view, and a man or gargantuan moral courage. Petty faiths attract petty enemies, but in the non-pettiness department, Hitchens ranks right up there with the Prince of Darkness himself. Which tells me God has been doing something right these last couple two millennia (to attract such a worthy opponent). Hitchens is too deep a thinker to be stuck in his dreary utilitarianism much longer.

So, no, sorry, no deal -- I shall continue to use my vote and pen to try to impose at least some of my ideological beliefs (principally those involving the injunction against murder, and the call to social justice) on you. I presume you'll do the same.

My words were "personal Lord and Savior" not "personal relationship." Go study Catholicism yourself.

It doesn't matter Bill. Neither phrase articulates something at odds with Catholic theology.

And if it were it wouldn't really matter since it's not language used by Ross in his characterization of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta's life.

You are correct though, I do need to study Catholicism and it should please you to know that I make it a priority to receive regular catechesis on my faith.

Whether it's married sex or premarital sex doesn't much change the issue. The point is, orthodox Catholics think that the use of birth control by anyone is immoral, similar to how Kant thought that even lying to the murderer at your door was immoral. You might think this position crazy, but for them, the use of birth control is immoral, and you're not supposed to condone immorality, even if by doing so you prevent another (sometimes worse) harm.

Mike S:

Banning gay marriage and legalizing discrimination against gays is imposing. Banning abortion and restricting access to contraception is imposing. Refusing to fund stem cell research is imposing. Introducing prayer and creationism into the schools is imposing.

What you are ignoring is that there is a big gap between justifying one's faith based on experiencing the holy spirit, but saying that the laws must reflect doctrines that the believers themselves have grave doubts about.

Jasper:

What I was directing my comments at was Ross' justification of his own faith on experiential grounds. If the position is "I have doubts about doctrine, but not about the existence of God", then it really pulls the rug out of the justification for forcing the rest of us to live according to those same doctrines (i.e., as to who we can sleep with, when, whether we can use contraception or have abortions, whether we can research on embryonic stem cells, etc.).

Mark Adams writes: "or the ever-popular rhythm method

It's not the rhythm method. It's called natural family planning. And I use it. And it works."

It's also called the rhythm method, chuckles. You could even look it up. And of course it works for you. You have no uterus.

Refusing to fund [embryo destructive] stem cell research is imposing.

So unless we agree to have our tax dollars spent on what we believe to be the killing of human life, we are imposing our beliefs??

Look it up where?

And by the way Moe, you should be happy to know that you really are as clever and funny as you think.

Bobcat replies: "Whether it's married sex or premarital sex doesn't much change the issue. The point is, orthodox Catholics think that the use of birth control by anyone is immoral, similar to how Kant thought that even lying to the murderer at your door was immoral. You might think this position crazy, but for them, the use of birth control is immoral, and you're not supposed to condone immorality, even if by doing so you prevent another (sometimes worse) harm."

But since MT had lost her faith, by her own admission, she was simply reciting the rules of a sect. Since the consequences of that preaching were something she could see every day, I say her morality was crap.

And yes, I do think the Church's birth control position is insane. I'll also note that Catholics (at least in this country) use birth control as much as non-Catholics do, and good for them.

Peter Leavitt writes: "My guess is that the recent spate of anti-religious books comes from a certain despair that radical secularism is being slowly but surely moved aside by a resurgence of serious religion. How else explain the influence people like John Paul II and Teresa, or even Neuhaus in the U.S."

MT has no influence to speak of, and not one in a hundred Americans has heard of Neuhaus, I'd guess. Your speculation is the wishful thinking of a True Believer.

JPII was a very influential man until the fall of the Iron Curtain. But he lost much of that influence when the Pedophile Curtain in his own Church was discovered, and he's dead now. His successor is about as influential as Jeffrey Dahmer and not much more pleasant.

ML&J: JPII was a very influential man until the fall of the Iron Curtain. But he lost much of that influence when the Pedophile Curtain in his own Church was discovered, and he's dead now.

John Paul II, along with Reagan, Thatcher, and Gorbachev was among the primary leaders that caused the fall of the Soviet Union. Read George Weigel on this.

While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it, the Catholic Church has dealt seriously with the issue and in the long run the Church, which deals in terms of centuries and millennia, will be little affected by this matter.

Meanwhile, the radical secularists whistle past the graveyard.

And yes, I do think the Church's birth control position is insane.

Insane, huh? Pretty strong words for a guy who evidently spends hours a day commenting on blog posts under a strange pseudonym.

Dilan,

This line of argumentation that only people of faith are "imposing" their beliefs (in one direction) on others gets old. One of the most well known of the Catholic Social Teachings is the one that states we should have a preferential option for the poor and vulnerable. Many Catholics of good will think this should apply in the U.S. by supporting higher minimum wage laws, supporting a progressive tax code to have the rich fund social programs, and having universal health care. Would this constitute an imposing of one's faith on agnostic libertarians?

Pope John Paul II once said that the use of the death penalty should be rare if not practically non-existent. If Catholics of good will seek to follow this teaching by outlawing the death penalty, are they imposing their beliefs on people who think the death penalty is necessary and clearly outlined in the Constitution?

There is a lot more to be said, particularly with respect to the idea that secularists are in no way seeking to impose their own beliefs on others (see Roe vs. Wade), but it's getting late.

Re: Refusing to fund [embryo destructive] stem cell research is imposing.

All laws are a form of "imposing". Telling me I can only drive 70 mph on I-75 up to St Pete next weekend when I'd rather do 80 mph imposes someone's conception of safety on me. Does that make it illegitimate?

Re: How else explain the influence people like John Paul II and Teresa, or even Neuhaus in the U.S.

JP II and Mother Teresa, well maybe, But Fr Neuhaus has disgraced himself by becoming nothing more than a partisan hack and a shill for the Bush administration. His once-interesting magazine, First Things, is now little more than a GOP manifesto with theology attached. The most recent issue, for example, contained a knee-jerk, stale-shibbleth-touting Global Warming denialist article, with no relevance whatsoever to the question of religion and public life, the magazine's supposed topic. Who paid for that I wonder-- Exxon and Karl Rove? And what next-- a screed denouncing the idea of taxing hedge fund managers' salaries as normal income?

Re: While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it

Those priests were not "gay": they were disturbed and troubled pederasts. Sure, most gay men will admnire a good looking 18 year old (just as staright men are turned on by a curvaceous 18 year old woman) but going after 13 year olds is not acceptable or wlecome in even the mosy louche corners of the gay world.

Mark:

Even if we assume arguendo the (totally silly) claim that a blastocyst is entitled to the same rights as a human person, yes, your tax dollars should fund it for the same reason that I can't stop my tax dollars from funding the Iraq War or the death penalty. Tax dollars are used to fund killing all the time, because the public's representatives voted for it.

And just because you believe that it is killing doesn't really answer my point, which is that religious believers who have doubts about doctrine (but no doubts about experiencing God) shouldn't put my life in jeopardy by denying me access to embryonic stem cell treatments should I need them.

Mark Adams says: "And by the way Moe, you should be happy to know that you really are as clever and funny as you think."

Oh, Christ, I know that.

While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it, the Catholic Church has dealt seriously with the issue and in the long run the Church, which deals in terms of centuries and millennia, will be little affected by this matter.

It's really convenient for conservatives to blame gays for the pedophile situation in the Catholic Church.

First, gays didn't cover it up or reassign those priests rather than going to the police. The Catholic hierarchy-- which had been basically remade in the image of the right wing John Paul II-- covered it up and reassigned those priests. And they did so because their own power was more important to them than the welfare of those children.

Second, lots of priests who identify as "straights" molested children too. Pedophilia and homosexuality are two very different things, despite conservatives' affinity for conflating them.

Third, the reason the Catholic Church had so much power to avoid official investigation of these acts for so long was because conservatives made alliances with the Church over abortion and other social issues.

Fourth, the reason the priesthood attracted a lot of people with sexual deviancies is because of the rules on celibacy and the Catholic Church's obsession with sexual "sin" (which, of course, is not actual sin at all but just private activities the Church disagrees with). Thus, many of these problem priests entered the priesthood with the encouragement of conservatives who thought that priestly celibacy was a good way to contain those sorts of urges.

There are many other Christian denominations that don't have the obsession with sexual sin and don't have the rules that ministers must remain celibate. Unsurprisingly, they also don't have the problems with sexual molestation that the Catholic Church did.

It is conservatives, not gays, who are at fault in the sex abuse scandal. Only when conservative Catholics stop endorsing bigoted homophobia and change THEIR ways will this problem really abate.

Peter Leavitt quotes and replies: "ML&J: JPII was a very influential man until the fall of the Iron Curtain. But he lost much of that influence when the Pedophile Curtain in his own Church was discovered, and he's dead now.

John Paul II, along with Reagan, Thatcher, and Gorbachev was among the primary leaders that caused the fall of the Soviet Union. Read George Weigel on this.

While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it, the Catholic Church has dealt seriously with the issue and in the long run the Church, which deals in terms of centuries and millennia, will be little affected by this matter.

Meanwhile, the radical secularists whistle past the graveyard. "

Thatcher had very little to do with the fall of the Soviet Union, and Reagan had no more to do with it than any of the other US presidents from Truman on did. Brezhnev had more to do with it than any of them.

And while I do credit JPII with moral leadership in that event, I give Lech Walesa far more credit. So should you. But I know you're a hardcore movement conservative and you folks have your articles of faith as much as any al Qaeda member does.

Your Church had issues with sexual misbehavior long before the "Sexual Revolution" and had gay priests throughout its history, of course. Your equation of "gay" with "pedophile" is rather disgusting but is also typical of your type.

When your Church was encouraging the castration of choir boys 150 years ago it was just another sort of molestation. Eventually scandal and public disgust ended that practice, and those factors (as well as lawsuits) were the only thing that ended (we can hope) the Pedophile Curtain. Your Church only dealy seriously with the issue when decent outsiders hit it in the wallet. Left to its own devices it would have continued aiding and abetting child-rapers.

And please don't tell me they didn't know they had a problem, or that it was confined to America post-"Sexual Revolution." The problem in Ireland was just as severe. The only good side to it is that the scandal there broke the back of the insanely strict and powerful Irish Church.

This line of argumentation that only people of faith are "imposing" their beliefs (in one direction) on others gets old. One of the most well known of the Catholic Social Teachings is the one that states we should have a preferential option for the poor and vulnerable. Many Catholics of good will think this should apply in the U.S. by supporting higher minimum wage laws, supporting a progressive tax code to have the rich fund social programs, and having universal health care. Would this constitute an imposing of one's faith on agnostic libertarians?

Pope John Paul II once said that the use of the death penalty should be rare if not practically non-existent. If Catholics of good will seek to follow this teaching by outlawing the death penalty, are they imposing their beliefs on people who think the death penalty is necessary and clearly outlined in the Constitution?

"Raise the minimum wage because it will increase the wages of working class Americans without increasing unemployment" is not imposing faith on secular Americans. "Raise the minimum wage because it is consistent with the wishes of God" is.

And you are still missing my more general point, which is that if you have no doubts about doctrine, as well as no doubts about experience (i.e., a fundamentalist), then that may be one thing, but people who have DOUBTS about doctrine and are only sure about their experience have no business trying to nonetheless force that doctrine on everyone else.

John writes: "And yes, I do think the Church's birth control position is insane.

Insane, huh? Pretty strong words for a guy who evidently spends hours a day commenting on blog posts under a strange pseudonym."

"Insane" is only one word, and I suppose your parents neglected to give you a last name - or are you The Poster Formally Known As John?

And I guess you spent hours monitoring my posts. That's quite a compliment, but this complaint of yours marks you as a nitwit.

All laws are a form of "imposing". Telling me I can only drive 70 mph on I-75 up to St Pete next weekend when I'd rather do 80 mph imposes someone's conception of safety on me. Does that make it illegitimate?

No, because that conception of safety is backed by empirical data. On the other hand, telling you that you will go to jail if you speed because a supernatural being that you don't believe exists said that you can't speed IS illegitimate.

And more to the point, people who insist on imposing that conception despite the fact that they themselves have doubts as to whether it is really required are way out of bounds.

I can't stop my tax dollars from funding the Iraq War or the death penalty.

So does that mean opponents of those things should stop lobbying the government to end them without being accused of trying to impose their ideology?

Tax dollars are used to fund killing all the time, because the public's representatives voted for it.

Right, and thus far the public's representatives at the national level have been unable to get federal funding for embryo destructive research made into law.

As for your point, I wasn't trying to address it.

So do you get paid by the post? Or just a flat salary?

Mark Adams writes: "Right, and thus far the public's representatives at the national level have been unable to get federal funding for embryo destructive research made into law."

Right, because a Christianist wackaloon named George Bush vetoed the legislation. Don't worry though, he'll be gone soon.

So if you want to donate any frozen embryos to the public good, just hold on until January 21st, 2009. That's when America will rejoin the 21st century.

Of course you can try to remain in the 15th.

Don't worry though, he'll be gone soon

Phew! I was worried Moe. Thanks.

Of course you can try to remain in the 15th.

Of course.

Re: religious believers who have doubts about doctrine (but no doubts about experiencing God) shouldn't put my life in jeopardy by denying me access to embryonic stem cell treatments should I need them.

Let's not jump into the realm of science fiction. There are no "embryonic stem cell" tretaments, just as there is no faster-than-light starship drive.

Re: When your Church was encouraging the castration of choir boys 150 years ago

The Church did not do this. It was a weird fashion thing, nothing to do with sex (the desire to keep a boyish tenor voice). Youthful opera singers who wished to keep their higher pitched child voices did this too.

Re: No, because that conception of safety is backed by empirical data.

So what? It's still an imposition of someone else's will. And that same empirical data would show that if we lowered the speed limit on the interstates to 25mpg there were be even fewer fatalities-- a lot fewer in fact. So again, we are coming to back to a collective value judgment: we will accept the level of fatalities we get at 70 mph, but not at 80 mph (and also begged here is the qustsion of why people who can drive safely at 80 mph should not be allowed to do so-- why must one size fit all here?) All law is a matter of imposing a collective judgment on the individual; you can't wiggle out of that fact. If you want to fight the Religious right I'll be happy to help on most issues, but don't do so on the basis that, because they are religious, their opinions are somehow worthless and they have no place in the debate. No, fight them because they are wrong, not because they are not fellow citizens with the same rights to make their voices heard as you and I.

Dear Moe and Bobcat,

Just to clarify a couple of things, natural family planning actually does work, when practiced correctly, as well as any other form of contraception. Women in Poland currently rely primarily on natural family planning (as I recall, over 60% use NFP exclusively), and Poland has a fertility rate well below the replacement level.

I don't think the Catholic Church position on artificial birth control is that it discourages 'temperance' or encourages premarital sex or anything like that- those would in fact be consequentialist arguments, vulnerable to the same flaws of all consequentialist arguments, as well as to the fact that the premise is false (African countries where birth control is not widely used are far more promiscuous than, say, Scandinavian countries). Rather, the argument is that any interference with the procreative aspect of the sex act is against nature. As a non-Catholic, I disagree with that position, and I think the Church is wrong on this, but let's not try to distort their position into something it isn't. (I also won't deny that I do find something admirable in the willingness of the Church to stick to their guns.)

As an aside, I don't think the Catholic position on birth control is particularly relevant to the problems of family planning in the 3rd world. I spent three years as a Peace Corps volunteer in an African country, and among many other things, sometimes held presentations about family planning (including natural family planning). I worked with plenty of Catholics who were sometimes not even aware of the Church's position, and among the reasons that people gave for not using birth control, I never heard anything about it being immoral, or against their religion. My impression is that while the Church in the Third World is opposed to birth control on paper, it doesn't devote particularly a lot of energy to condemning it, nor does it particularly try to enforce its viewpoint. (It does, of course, try to further its opinion on the abortion question, as well it should). In the Catholic countries of Central and South America (as well as European Catholic countries like Poland, Ireland, etc.) birth control is very widely practiced. The one religion that does seem to be correlated with higher birth rates in today's world is Islam, not Catholicism.

Dear Moe and Bobcat,

Just to clarify a couple of things, natural family planning actually does work, when practiced correctly, as well as any other form of contraception. Women in Poland currently rely primarily on natural family planning (as I recall, over 60% use NFP exclusively), and Poland has a fertility rate well below the replacement level.

I don't think the Catholic Church position on artificial birth control is that it discourages 'temperance' or encourages premarital sex or anything like that- those would in fact be consequentialist arguments, vulnerable to the same flaws of all consequentialist arguments, as well as to the fact that the premise is false (African countries where birth control is not widely used are far more promiscuous than, say, Scandinavian countries). Rather, the argument is that any interference with the procreative aspect of the sex act is against nature. As a non-Catholic, I disagree with that position, and I think the Church is wrong on this, but let's not try to distort their position into something it isn't. (I also won't deny that I do find something admirable in the willingness of the Church to stick to their guns.)

As an aside, I don't think the Catholic position on birth control is particularly relevant to the problems of family planning in the 3rd world. I spent three years as a Peace Corps volunteer in an African country, and among many other things, sometimes held presentations about family planning (including natural family planning). I worked with plenty of Catholics who were sometimes not even aware of the Church's position, and among the reasons that people gave for not using birth control, I never heard anything about it being immoral, or against their religion. My impression is that while the Church in the Third World is opposed to birth control on paper, it doesn't devote particularly a lot of energy to condemning it, nor does it particularly try to enforce its viewpoint. (It does, of course, try to further its opinion on the abortion question, as well it should). In the Catholic countries of Central and South America (as well as European Catholic countries like Poland, Ireland, etc.) birth control is very widely practiced. The one religion that does seem to be correlated with higher birth rates in today's world is Islam, not Catholicism.

Sullivan, upon reading Mother Theresa's remarks, was impressed with how much she is like him, and helpfully pointed this out in a post to his blog:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/08/faith-in-doubt-.html

JonF quotes and writes: "When your Church was encouraging the castration of choir boys 150 years ago

The Church did not do this. It was a weird fashion thing, nothing to do with sex (the desire to keep a boyish tenor voice). Youthful opera singers who wished to keep their higher pitched child voices did this too."

Nonsense. The Church encouraged it by using the boys (called "the castrati") in choirs. Kids didn't volunteer for the procedure, either. And you can claim it had nothing to do with sex, but I would say that the desire to be surrounded by perpetual soprano eunuchs is a weird intersection of the abuse of power and twisted sexuality which was long present in the Church hierarchy.

It's not an accident that the Church became THE pedophile haven. The cult of celibacy, the secrecy, the emphasis on obedience and submission, the whole weird "altar boy" business - I mean, come on. It's like some weird pornographic prison movie.

Hector writes: "My impression is that while the Church in the Third World is opposed to birth control on paper, it doesn't devote particularly a lot of energy to condemning it, nor does it particularly try to enforce its viewpoint. (It does, of course, try to further its opinion on the abortion question, as well it should). In the Catholic countries of Central and South America (as well as European Catholic countries like Poland, Ireland, etc.) birth control is very widely practiced."

That's true, but it's also a relatively new phenomenon. In Ireland, for instance, condoms were illegal until 1979, and it was years after that before you could get them without a prescription. Now what institution do you suppose was responsible for that bit of stupidity?

Hint: It wasn't the IRA.

Point of clarification:

The Church did not commission eunuch choirboys, the boys' parents mutilated them and then gave them to the Church. Castration was an even more widespread practice in non-Catholic places such as the Arab world, India and China. The Church did sin passively by providing a market, true enough, but it never actively requested or even endorsed the practice of castration. On the contrary, castration was illegal under the laws of both the Catholic and Orthodox churches, for which reason parents of these poor boys had to make up fictions that the boy had been bitten by a pig or a dog.

I personally find the cult of celibacy, the emphasis on submission, etc. quite beautiful and admirable, even though I'm not a Catholic. The fact that these things are vulnerable to perversion does not detract from their value. Evil is the corruption of good, and great evils come from the corruptions of great goods. I would also argue that a good part of the reason we have so much child molestation in America is the fact that as a society we are too lenient in our punishment of the offenders.

If experimenting on human beings and cannibalizing the tissue of embryos is the hallmark of civilization/modernity, then I would hate to see what you consider barbaric.

Condoms are not the only means of birth control, nor are they a particularly good one. Many people would accept the morality of chemical birth control (i.e. the Pill) but not condoms (this was the dissident Catholic position that Pope Paul VI ruled against in the late 1960s). The relevant question is when was the Pill legalized in Ireland.

In any case, Ireland has had a very low rate of population growth for a long time, so whatever the official position of the Irish government on birth control, it wasn't exactly having a very great effect.

Since you bring up the IRA, I should point out that sexual puritanism is not just a feature of religious conservatives, but also of most left-wing radical movements (not U.S. liberals, but the socialist/communist movements on the actual far left). See Hobsbawm's essay 'revolution and sex' for more details. Is the fact that idealistic movements on both the religious right and the revolutionary left have seen the necessity to restrain the sex instinct, trying to tell us something?

Re: The Church encouraged it by using the boys (called "the castrati") in choirs.

My point was that this was NOT a moral or religious thing at all. No one suggested that eunuchs were more likely to go to Heaven. It was a fashion craze, one that affected the secular world too as my example of the castration of opera singers shows.

Re: On the contrary, castration was illegal under the laws of both the Catholic and Orthodox churches

"Illegal" is too strong a word here. However, canon law did not permit eunuchs to be ordained as priests.

Re: I personally find the cult of celibacy, the emphasis on submission, etc. quite beautiful and admirable

For those who wish to renounce the world for spiritual reasons, I would agree. Hence the celibacy of monks and nuns (and in the Buddhist tradition too). But priests do not renoucne the world: their role is to serve the world and so I think the Eastern Churches have it right by permitting married priests.

So I guess there's some strange coalition between conservatives and libertarians arguing that religious impositions are just as acceptable/unacceptable as all other legal impositions, either because they want more faith-based impositions or fewer impositions generally.

People of faith could get the raw end of this new bargain, as they currently benefit greatly from this distinction. Religious reasons can be cited to exempt you from numerous taxation and other regulations. The idea that religious motivations are distinct from secular motivations and should therefore be more free from interference and even accommodated is deeply embedded in our ethics, frequently to the benefit of the religious. Thus, laws with a purely secular purpose like zoning limits can be waived if they block your faith in way that they can't be waived if they block my secular whims.

The flipside of this special autonomy given to religious claims is that everyone else has it too--I can't stop you from following your religion, but you can't stop anyone else--or make them follow yours. Religious impositions are just a special kind of thing.

The irony is that it's now atheists who defending this idea, because why would an atheist think that the religious sphere of ideas should be in any way special? The special freedom of and from religion makes sense only in terms of it's sacredness.

But to the religious, or at least to Christians, it's perfectly obvious why coercion is more unacceptable in religious matters than secular ones.

Hector writes: "The Church did not commission eunuch choirboys, the boys' parents mutilated them and then gave them to the Church. Castration was an even more widespread practice in non-Catholic places such as the Arab world, India and China. The Church did sin passively by providing a market, true enough, but it never actively requested or even endorsed the practice of castration. "

Ah, yes - "passive sinning." The Church is very good at that. It was also a major factor in the Pedophile Curtain scandal.

They weren't officially endorsing child rape. They were just "passively" aiding and abetting it.

Hector replies: "Condoms are not the only means of birth control, nor are they a particularly good one. Many people would accept the morality of chemical birth control (i.e. the Pill) but not condoms (this was the dissident Catholic position that Pope Paul VI ruled against in the late 1960s). The relevant question is when was the Pill legalized in Ireland.

In any case, Ireland has had a very low rate of population growth for a long time, so whatever the official position of the Irish government on birth control, it wasn't exactly having a very great effect. "

Hector, this is simply stupid. The rate of population growth in Ireland was low because of the incredible amount of immigration which was taking place. Anyone with any knowledge of Irish history is well aware of that factor.

As for the Pill in Ireland, it would have taken you about 2 minutes to look the relevant history up instead of dumping a silly uninformed reply on me. Here, educate yourself:

http://goireland.about.com/od/preparingyourtrip/qt/contraception.htm

Jonf quotes and writes: "I personally find the cult of celibacy, the emphasis on submission, etc. quite beautiful and admirable

For those who wish to renounce the world for spiritual reasons, I would agree. Hence the celibacy of monks and nuns (and in the Buddhist tradition too). But priests do not renoucne the world: their role is to serve the world and so I think the Eastern Churches have it right by permitting married priests."

The Catholic Church actually permits married priests, also - when they're married Anglican priests who convert to Catholicism.

In actual practice, about half of all Catholic priests stray from the rule of celibacy - and those are the ones who admit it. I suspect the figure is much higher.

MoeLarryandJesus may have replaced "Jupiter" (who used to post semi-coherent racist rants at Steve Salier's site until Steve finally had enough and imposed comment moderation) as the worst commenter I have ever encountered.

The silence of Douthat.

Let's not jump into the realm of science fiction. There are no "embryonic stem cell" tretaments, just as there is no faster-than-light starship drive.

That's really not the point. Religious zealots oppose finding out whether there ARE such treatments. In other words, if it's between my life and the life of an unthinking, unsentient blastocyst, they would kill me and save the blastocyst. That is what is known as having deeply unserious moral beliefs.

Just to clarify a couple of things, natural family planning actually does work, when practiced correctly, as well as any other form of contraception.

I don't deny that it can work, but it doesn't work as well as condoms or birth control pills, Norplant, diaphragm and spermicide, or IUD's, correctly used. It certainly works quite a bit less well than sterilization.

Also, I've heard a lot of people who use NFP express, shall we say, laccadisacal attitudes about whether they want additional children. In other words, if you don't really want another child but are perfectly willing to raise one if one comes along, NFP may be a perfectly good type of contraception. But if you want to use a method that will ensure that you won't need to have an abortion later on, it's not really the best method to use, and the methods the Church opposes (condoms, the Pill, etc.).

Plus, condoms are superior because they reduce the likelihood of transmission of STD's. The Church's position is that if a husband has HIV, he should transmit it to his negative wife and kill her as well rather than using protection. That's one reason why us secular types don't think much of the allegedly moral beliefs of the conservative wing of the Catholic Church.

Dilan Esper wrote:

"Raise the minimum wage because it will increase the wages of working class Americans without increasing unemployment" is not imposing faith on secular Americans. "Raise the minimum wage because it is consistent with the wishes of God" is.

So did John Kerry--who during the 2004 campaign stated in the debate at Arizona that his faith moved him to support raising the minimum wage and tighter regulations on the environment--seek to impose his faith on agnostic libertarians?


"And you are still missing my more general point, which is that if you have no doubts about doctrine, as well as no doubts about experience (i.e., a fundamentalist), then that may be one thing, but people who have DOUBTS about doctrine and are only sure about their experience have no business trying to nonetheless force that doctrine on everyone else."

This is very confused. This entire thread has to do with Mother Teresa's long dark night regarding her loss of the direct experience of Christ in her life. At times, this loss of the personal connection with Christ led her to question God's existence, but she never abandoned her faith outright. And from this account you conclude that this makes it illegitimate for Mother Teresa to impose her doctrines on the rest of us because she had lost that personal connection. And then, as examples of doctrines, you give us stem-cell research, gay marriage, abortion, etc.

Right, well first of all, the aforementioned are not Church doctrines in the way that transubstantiation and such are. The Church teaches with the authority of Christ (as Catholics see it)on moral issues, but these teachings are non-sectarian and can thus be grappled with and even accepted by people who are not Catholic. Nat Hentoff is not Catholic, but he is opposed to abortion for the same reason that the Church is opposed, because the act violates basic justice. You are constantly demanding that people put their arguments in secular terms so that people of no faith can grapple with them. Well guess what? the Catholic Church has. Even John Rawls came to see that the anti-abortion position could be formulated in a way that spoke to secular and religious alike.

Secondly, Mother Teresa was never a member of Congress and could thus not plausibly be accused of trying to impose her "doctrines" on the rest of us. She died in 1997, well before the most heated of the debates on stem-cell research and gay marriage in this country. She expressed her views on how people how to act, which is no more of an imposition on people who disagree with her than Richard Dawkins/Daniel Dennett saying that religious instruction of the young is a form of child abuse is an imposition on me. I disagree with those two, but unless they run for office and try to enshrine their views into law, I'm not going to get huffy about it.

As for your embarrassing and conspiracy-filled rant against the Church on the sexual abuse issue, one does not have to condone the negligent (and in some cases criminal) conduct of some bishops in the Church to call out ignorant cheap shots when they appear.

"Third, the reason the Catholic Church had so much power to avoid official investigation of these acts for so long was because conservatives made alliances with the Church over abortion and other social issues."

The Church has taught about the evil of abortion and the immorality of homosexual sex for, oh, about two thousand years, and yet you divine some sort of recent alliance between the Vatican and "conservative" bishops so they could avoid accountability. Did Dan Brown put you up to this?

"Fourth, the reason the priesthood attracted a lot of people with sexual deviancies is because of the rules on celibacy and the Catholic Church's obsession with sexual "sin" (which, of course, is not actual sin at all but just private activities the Church disagrees with). Thus, many of these problem priests entered the priesthood with the encouragement of conservatives who thought that priestly celibacy was a good way to contain those sorts of urges.
There are many other Christian denominations that don't have the obsession with sexual sin and don't have the rules that ministers must remain celibate. Unsurprisingly, they also don't have the problems with sexual molestation that the Catholic Church did."

This is utterly false. Catholic priests are no more likely to engage in abuse than their married counterparts in other denominations. See Philip Jenkins on this matter. And by the way, statistically the most sexual abuse of the young is performed by married men with children, so I look forward to your advice on how to deal with that issue.

As an aside, I don't think the Catholic position on birth control is particularly relevant to the problems of family planning in the 3rd world. I spent three years as a Peace Corps volunteer in an African country, and among many other things, sometimes held presentations about family planning (including natural family planning). I worked with plenty of Catholics who were sometimes not even aware of the Church's position, and among the reasons that people gave for not using birth control, I never heard anything about it being immoral, or against their religion.

That's really not much of an argument. All that says is the reason the Church's position doesn't do much damage is people ignore it anyway. I am all in favor of that-- indeed, one of the funniest things about these discussions with conservative Catholics is that such a high percentage of Catholics know that all this stuff on sexual morality is complete bunk. But it doesn't really say much in favor of the Church's claims.

I personally find the cult of celibacy, the emphasis on submission, etc. quite beautiful and admirable, even though I'm not a Catholic. The fact that these things are vulnerable to perversion does not detract from their value.

Um, actually it does. Tradition is worth diddly squat compared to the lives and well being of those kids. And one of the reasons the Catholic Church hierarchy tolerated, covered up, and facilitated all that abuse for so long is because they thought their traditions were a higher law than the mere welfare of children in their care.

Condoms are not the only means of birth control, nor are they a particularly good one.

That's an ignorant statement. Condoms, used correctly, are over 95 percent effective at preventing pregnancy over the course of a year. Bill Maher has a nice joke about it-- he says that he's used the product for over three decades and that the only thing that is as reliable is his toaster.

And remember, not everyone relies on only condoms. Condoms with spermicide, condoms with a diaphragm, and condoms plus the pill are as close to 100 percent reliable, when properly used, as they come.

But of course, I might add one thing-- if you really believe that condoms are ineffective, that's just an argument for keeping abortion safe and legal to protect women from the life-ruining consequences when they fail.

Many people would accept the morality of chemical birth control (i.e. the Pill) but not condoms (this was the dissident Catholic position that Pope Paul VI ruled against in the late 1960s).

I guess his alleged "God" didn't tell him there was going to be an AIDS epidemic.

I mean, really, I am so glad these guys in robes who claim to have never even HAD sex are such experts on the subject.

So did John Kerry--who during the 2004 campaign stated in the debate at Arizona that his faith moved him to support raising the minimum wage and tighter regulations on the environment--seek to impose his faith on agnostic libertarians?

I am no fan of liberals, any more than conservatives, saying that crap. Personally, when I hear that a supernatural being that nobody is sure exists has said that I shouldn't do something, that constitutes absolutely zero evidence as to whether I should do it but constitutes good evidence that the person saying it needs to stop telling the rest of us how to live.

Nat Hentoff is not Catholic, but he is opposed to abortion for the same reason that the Church is opposed, because the act violates basic justice.

That's begging the question. The Church thinks it violates "basic justice" because of religious beliefs about the nature of humanity and personhood. (I should add that the Church is also anti-feminist and devalues the importance of not forcing women to give birth.)

Secondly, Mother Teresa was never a member of Congress and could thus not plausibly be accused of trying to impose her "doctrines" on the rest of us.

Really? So all those speeches she gave when she called on governments to ban abortion and restrict contraception never happened?

Secondly, Mother Teresa was never a member of Congress and could thus not plausibly be accused of trying to impose her "doctrines" on the rest of us.

Instead of telling me what a bigot I supposedly am, why don't you defend THE HIERARCHY'S conduct in not calling police, keeping its files secret, transferring priests, not warning parents, and otherwise FURTHERING the abuse, over and over again?

Conservatives would like to say that it was a few bad apples, but this stuff WAS OFFICIAL CHURCH POLICY!

The Church has taught about the evil of abortion and the immorality of homosexual sex for, oh, about two thousand years

Not true. The Church said that abortion was PERMISSIBLE before quickening for 1,900 of those years, and the specific condemnations of gays and lesbians (as opposed to general condemnations of all sex acts that were not procreative) are also quite recent.

This is utterly false. Catholic priests are no more likely to engage in abuse than their married counterparts in other denominations. See Philip Jenkins on this matter. And by the way, statistically the most sexual abuse of the young is performed by married men with children, so I look forward to your advice on how to deal with that issue.

That last sentence of yours proves this is not a problem with gays in the Church.

But the rest of what you said is simply false. NO mainstream Church covered up the molestations and transferred abusive priests, other than Catholicism. NOT ONE.

James Kabala says: "MoeLarryandJesus may have replaced "Jupiter" (who used to post semi-coherent racist rants at Steve Salier's site until Steve finally had enough and imposed comment moderation) as the worst commenter I have ever encountered."

Since I can't remember a single one of your previous posts, I can only regard this opinion as being as significant as a fart in a hurricane. But thanks for your devotion to my posts.

torourke quotes and writes: "There are many other Christian denominations that don't have the obsession with sexual sin and don't have the rules that ministers must remain celibate. Unsurprisingly, they also don't have the problems with sexual molestation that the Catholic Church did."

This is utterly false. Catholic priests are no more likely to engage in abuse than their married counterparts in other denominations."

I believe that may be true. However, the Church's real problem with molestation wasn't that its priests were raping more children than other clergy were - it was that the Church itself, as an institution, engaged in endless coverups and allowed pedophile priests to transfer over and over again. This sort of organized and deliberate rug-sweeping wasn't possible in less organized, non-international denominations.

Defenders of the Church on this score are simply being disingenuous when they pretend there was nothing unique about this international crisis as it relates to the nature of the Church as an institution. I think it also remains to be seen if anything has really changed. Benedict's gay-bashing policies are not the answer. He was a huge part of the problem himself.

NO mainstream Church covered up the molestations and transferred abusive priests, other than Catholicism. NOT ONE.

Bullshit.

So name another Church that did so, Johnny. Go ahead.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were an isolated case or two - but the Catholic Church did it for decades, quite deliberately. In Boston, it happened under at least 3 consecutive Cardinals!

It's unique. Sorry if that gores your pointy-hatted ox.

Hector had written: "I would also argue that a good part of the reason we have so much child molestation in America is the fact that as a society we are too lenient in our punishment of the offenders.

If experimenting on human beings and cannibalizing the tissue of embryos is the hallmark of civilization/modernity, then I would hate to see what you consider barbaric. "

Using embryos for research is no more "barbaric" than organ transplants are.

And it's simply asinine to suggest that there's more child molestation in America than in other countries. You have no more basis for that than you do for your wholly uninformed comments about Ireland.

As far as "leniency" goes, you also have no basis for claiming child molestors are treated more leniently here than in other countries. In general sentences for criminal behavior are harsher here than they are in Europe, for example. Just ask George W. "Kill 'Em All" Bush.

Re: The Church said that abortion was PERMISSIBLE before quickening for 1,900 of those years

This is not true. The older teaching hypothesized a "quickening at about 40 note (note bene, that's well before most abortions are performed) and while an abortion prior to the quickening was not quite murder, it was the next closest thing and still morally condemnible.

Re: the specific condemnations of gays and lesbians (as opposed to general condemnations of all sex acts that were not procreative) are also quite recent.

Traditional Christian teaching never affirmed "sodomy" (by which was meant any non- penis-vagina sex act, no matter who was doing it, even married couples). It is true that the specific focus on male-male and female-female sex is rather recent (the equation of sodomy with homosexuality) and in the distant past there was a rite for joining of same sex lovers which was not a "marriage" as Boswell would have it, but certainly did celebrate same sex love. How this meshed with the sexual prohibition I have no idea, but then human beings are rarely 100% logical in their cultural institutions, and doubtless the far future will puzzle mightily over some of our contrardictions too.

JonF: I actually do agree with the Orthodox position here, I don't think celibacy should be mandatory for priests, but i do think it should be encouraged as an option, and treated as an admirable thing in the same way that other forms of discipline and renunciation for priests would be. I do think that priests should be allowed to marry if they so desire.

Moe and JonF: Don't get me wrong, I think that what the Church did by hiring castrati was a bad and hypocritical thing, however their responsibility in the matter wasn't quite as large as you imply. Castration was in fact illegal under canon law, and occasionally the person responsible for the castration was excommunicated. This was why the parents usually had to claim that their son had lost his genitals by accident. Of course the Church was at fault for hiring castrati, but it remains true that if people had followed canon law to the letter, there would have been no castrati to begin with.

So name another Church that did so, Johnny. Go ahead.

Try clicking here - and note how many of the accused are still serving. (Though of course they are innocent until proven guilty.)

Or maybe click your way over here.

None of this excuses the utterly disgraceful conduct of the Catholic magisterium, of course, nor does it affect the present debate in any important way. But misinformation is misinformation.

"Educate yourself" indeed. (Dare I add that "it would have taken you about 2 minutes to look the relevant history up instead of dumping a silly uninformed reply on me"?)

Johnny, nothing in those links says anything about a Church covering up molestation and transferring the molestors in an effort to retain their services. Nothing. I can only hope you misunderstood the comments you were replying to and you're not being a purposeful liar.

But I don't have much hope of that. I've been down this road before with too many True Believers.

Note to Johnny - "coverup" has an actual meaning here. It doesn't mean putting your pants back on afterwards. Just in case that's what you were, uh, "thinking."

Dilan,

The problem with claiming that 'condoms, when used correctly, are 95% effective' is that in practice they are not used correctly much of the time. In practice, they break or slip off and thus have a 15-20% failure rate. When used correctly, of course, natural family planning is also 100% effective. It's physically impossible to become pregnant if you are not ovulating. If natural family planning is so innefective, then explain how France in the 1800s, or Poland today, were able to have such a low birth rate in spite of little use of artificial birth control. Either we should compare NFP, used perfectly, to condoms, used perfectly, or we should compare NFP in practice to condoms in practice.

To clarify, Paul VI stated the official Catholic position which is all forms of contraception except NFP are illicit. There was a dissident Catholic position at the time, which he overruled, which if I remember correctly held that the Pill was all right, since it used hormones similar to those that were naturally present in the woman's body, but that condoms were not.

regarding disease prevention, I think that the problem of STDs would be better addressed through behavior change, trying to fight against prostitution, promiscuity, etc. Fidelity, and being careful about partners, would do more to militate against the spread of STDs than condoms would.

Condoms do fail, as do natural family planning, the Pill, etc. When they do fail, that's a tragic occurence, and we need to pity and try to better the lives of women who are the victims of unplanned pregnancies. I believe that the answer is better social provision, not abortion. We should try to create a society where we collectively try and ensure that each child's needs are taken care of. But to destroy the unborn child cannot be an acceptable solution.

nothing in those links says anything about a Church covering up molestation and transferring the molestors in an effort to retain their services.

Huh?

Miguel Prats, Texas coordinator for the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests and Other Clergy, said the convention is allowing ministers who have committed child abuse in one congregation to serve in other churches by not publishing its list of clergy members involved in sexual misconduct.

The BGCT keeps a confidential list of individuals who are reported by a church for sexual misconduct, including child molestation and extramarital affairs. Designated individuals from churches can write and find out if specific people are on the list, but they cannot find out why a person was reported.

(snip)

Prats cited the plight of one current Austin resident who was molested in 1969 by a youth minister serving in the Dallas area. The minister left the congregation shortly after the incident was discovered and went on to serve at several other Baptist churches.

Here's the link. And here's more.

I can only hope you misunderstood the comments you were replying to and you're not being a purposeful liar.

But I don't have much hope of that. I've been down this road before ...

Is that the best you have, Johnny? And if so, why didn't you provide it before, instead of those lame links you did provide?

But you're still far of the mark. Where do you see evidence of the Convention higher-ups covering anything up? Where do you see them taking an active role in transferring these ministers?

Nowhere. The Baptists simply aren't that organized. They don't have a hierarchy like the Church does. Nothing you have provided even comes close to addressing the question. And you piled a whole lot of nothing up in the first two links you provided.

Where are the Baptist "Cardinals" and "Bishops" who knew about these animals but passed them on to other churches knowingly and recklessly, Johhny?

Nowhere.

You're as cynical and disingenuous as Boston's Cardinal Law was. Hey, if you keep this up, maybe you can get a bigwheel Vatican post, too.

Hector writes: "The problem with claiming that 'condoms, when used correctly, are 95% effective' is that in practice they are not used correctly much of the time. In practice, they break or slip off and thus have a 15-20% failure rate."

No one who has ever actually used condoms would believe that for a second.

Have a nice day, Father Hector.

Johnny's failings notwithstanding, obviously the Baptists have a problem in this area. But they don't have a hierarchy cold-bloodedly taking Pastor Babyraper from parish A and sending him over to parish Z in order to retain his services and cover up his crimes. The Catholic Church did this repeatedly, and apparently quite deliberately.

Moe:

That response was remarkably cogent.

Why don't you check out a chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods

In which it states that condoms have a failure rate, in practice of 15% and under perfect use, of 2%. Natural family planning has a failure rate of between 3 and 25% in practice, and under perfect use, of as little as 1%.

Dilan:

As I said above, I don't agree with the Catholic Church and their condemnation of birth control. However, I don't think that we should underestimate the efficacy of natural family planning. Nor do I think we should go to the other extent of advocating lots of free condoms as the solution to every problem.

Hector, do you know what "typical use" means? It means the rate for people who rely on condoms as their primary form of birth control. The failure rate of 15% comes into play mostly because such users DON'T ALWAYS USE CONDOMS WHEN THEY HAVE SEX.

How a dishonest hack like yourself turns that into "15-20 %" because they "break or fall off" is between you and your therapist.

I don't think that we should underestimate the efficacy of natural family planning.

Oh no, it's much better making hilarious jokes ("of course it works for you. You have no uterus." Just freaking classic Moe) than actually dealing with the fact that NFP is remarkably effective at postponing pregnancy.

I'm glad that NFP cult members are here in full force. I look forward in future threads here to seeing vegans, breastfeeding advocates, Lego fans, Star Wars freaks, Tom Tancredo supporters, and Young Earth Creationists pushing their pet causes when they're not especially relevant.

NFP - with its wide range of methods and teaching, including basal temperature readings, may work very well for comfortable yuppies with lots of time on their hands. It's not what Mother Teresa was pushing on her poverty-stricken charges, though.

Hector is all over the place on this issue. First he claims NFP used correctly is 100% effective, then he has a chart saying it's 1-3% or 25% in practice. Hector's chart also says that NFP is generally associated with "periods of abstinence" in accord with "Catholic beliefs."

Which is Latin for "it's not much use in case of a spontaneous boink." I'm wicked impressed with such a method.

"Just think about the Pope and go to sleep, honey."

By the way, if I was mistaken and Mark Adams actually has a uterus, I apologize for making an incorrect assumption.

Which is Latin for "it's not much use in case of a spontaneous boink." I'm wicked impressed with such a method.

"Just think about the Pope and go to sleep, honey."

Good point. God forbid anyone have to go without an orgasm whenever and wherever they want.

pushing their pet causes when they're not especially relevant

Uh, you're the one that brought up the rhythm method.

By the way, if I was mistaken and Mark Adams actually has a uterus, I apologize for making an incorrect assumption.

No dude, that's what makes it so freaking hilarious. I *don't* have a uterus. So how could NFP *not* work for me right? Cause I can't get pregnant, right? That's the genius of the line. Because I couldn't have possibly meant that my wife and I used NFP to successfully avoid pregnancy not to mention using it to successfully conceive the first month we tried.

Mark Adams says: "God forbid anyone have to go without an orgasm whenever and wherever they want."

Yes, your god seems to do that. Good thing the critter's just imaginary and we responsible modern adults don't have to pay attention to such wackaloon prohibitions.

Mark Adams quotes and writes: "pushing their pet causes when they're not especially relevant

Uh, you're the one that brought up the rhythm method."

I wasn't pushing for it, chuckles. I was pointing out that abstinence and the rhythm method were what MT used to push. And despite what you claim, "the rhythm method" was what they were pushing back then. They weren't using the phrase "natural family planning." That's just the upgrade - as "intelligent design" is the upgrade on "being a freaking bonehead who takes Genesis seriously."

Moe and Mark,

Natural family planning, when used perfectly, is as I understand, 97-99% effective. 3-25% refers to the failure rate when used 'typically' (that is, accounting for human error). Natural family planning theoretically (i.e. if you were able to know exactly when you were ovulating) would presumably be 100% effective. I believe all of this was perfectly clear from the chart that I linked to.

Yes, I misspoke due to hasty response about the reason why condoms fail, I wasn't implying that it's due to manufactuerer's defects. They fail because of improper use, much the way condoms also fail due to improper use.

NFP may work well for 'comfortable yuppies', it also works very well for modern Polish women, and 19th century French peasants, as I mentioned above. France has been famous for having a very low birthrate since the time of the Revolution. Some of that may have been due to various herbal contraceptives, some of it presumably to NFP. Given that it is generally believed condoms of the time were poor quality, I doubt that they were much use in keeping the birthrate low.

Like i said, I don't particularly have a dog in the fight. I'm not a Catholic, and I believe that hormonal birth control is a good, morally licit and necessary thing, and the Church is wrong to condemn it. ("Necessary" in the sense that it's true that NFP is not workable for everyone, since it can be difficult to use correctly). But I think NFP is often cavalierly dismissed without much basis, and I think it should be encouraged as an alternative to hormonal birth control for those couples who are interested. (Hormonal birth control, meaning the Pill....I'm not entirely sure whether I think condoms are OK).

Mark,

If you don't mind my asking, what is your assessment of efficacy of NFP, and did you choose it for religious reasons or for others? I know it's becoming increasingly popular among non-Catholics as well.

Mark Adams boasts: "Because I couldn't have possibly meant that my wife and I used NFP to successfully avoid pregnancy not to mention using it to successfully conceive the first month we tried."

"Honey, the basal temp's right and the wall chart says all systems are go! Assume the position!"

I wonder how people managed to "successfully conceive" back before the phrase "Natural Family Planning" was invented, or at least before it was reduced to an acronym.

I could be wrong, but they probably just had sex.

I wasn't pushing for it, chuckles.

I could care less whether you were pushing for it. You brought it up, criticized it and then acted like those who came to defend were guilty of some massive non sequitur.

God forbid anyone have to go without an orgasm whenever and wherever they want.

You think you are being snarky and cute here, but in fact, there's no REASON why people shouldn't be able to have an orgasm whenever they want (wherever is not the issue here) any more than they should be able to go for a walk whenever they want or read a book whenever they want or have a drink of water whenever they want.

Having an orgasm is a normal human activity, and one that many people quite enjoy. If contraception method 1 allows a person to have one whenever they want to and contraception method 2 does not, that's a huge point in favor of method 1.

Mark Adams quotes and replies: "I wasn't pushing for it, chuckles.

I could care less whether you were pushing for it. You brought it up, criticized it and then acted like those who came to defend were guilty of some massive non sequitur."

Defend what, Marky? You denied that the rhythm method and NFP had anything to do with one another. What, then, were you defending?

Did your wall charts tell you it was time to play defense?

Hector Dauphin-Gloire,

We are faithful Catholics so we chose it first and foremost in obedience to the Church but of course we were also persuaded by Her reasoning. As indicated above we found it remarkably effective both in avoiding conception and in achieving it. But as I alluded to it also does requires self control which could mean going (gasp!) a whole 10 days without an orgasm. I can attest that a side benefit often referred to is indeed true which is the monthly honeymoon effect that results after the time of abstinence.

Without getting too personal I will say this: I have been married a little over three years and was unsure going into marriage how challenging NFP would be. I can honestly say that now I would not use any other method even if the pope were to turn around tomorrow and tell us it was okay. Sure it can be difficult, but it's not *that* difficult. But I will leave it at that. You can email me markadams [at] gmail if you have more questions.

Re: If natural family planning is so innefective, then explain how France in the 1800s, or Poland today, were able to have such a low birth rate in spite of little use of artificial birth control.

Ever hear of coitus interruptus? That's not what is meant by NFP, and yes, it's not 100% effective either. But it is how a lot of people pre-Pill and pre-Condom prevented unwanted conceptions.

NFP may work well for 'comfortable yuppies', it also works very well for modern Polish women, and 19th century French peasants, as I mentioned above.

According to easily accessible sources on the internet, almost 60 percent of sexually active Polish couples use artificial contraception. That may be lower than in the US, but that's clearly high enough to account for their fertility rate.

As for France, the fertility rate for France in the 19th Century was 3.2 children per childbearing age woman. Now that was low by 19th Century standards (although the US rate was actually fairly close to that), but let's be clear here. Nobody's claiming that the rhythm method can't reduce a fertility rate from 5 down to 3.2. Because that can happen if a lot of people go on the rhythm method but a lot of people still have children. Plus, some women died in childbirth, which dragged down the average, and some people were using condoms, which were available and did work (as well as modern "skin" condoms).

That's completely different from saying that the rhythm method or NFP is a good way of keeping your fertility rate at ZERO when compared to other methods.

Having an orgasm is a normal human activity, and one that many people quite enjoy.

Gosh, really!!?? I am just a repressed Catholic and have no idea about these things. I now realize that the idea of there being any benefit to denying instant gratification is completely without merit. Thanks Dilian!

I have been married a little over three years

So what you are really saying is that the fact that NFP hasn't failed you yet may just mean you have been lucky so far.

Again, if people feel that they don't really want to have a child but will welcome one if it comes, NFP may be a very good method of contraception. If people do not want to have a baby under any circumstances, it is a terrible method (unless one is willing to simply have an abortion if necessary).

But as I alluded to it also does requires self control which could mean going (gasp!) a whole 10 days without an orgasm. I can attest that a side benefit often referred to is indeed true which is the monthly honeymoon effect that results after the time of abstinence.

Sex is a learned skill. What you may not realize is that you are depriving yourself of valuable experience as to how to please your partner, especially since I assume you are also abstaining from masturbation (mutual or onananistic) and abstaining from oral and anal contact as well.

This is one situation where I can literally say you don't know what you are missing.

So what you are really saying is that the fact that NFP hasn't failed you yet may just mean you have been lucky so far.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Three years of marriage and we've just been lucky. Has nothing to do with the method.

But as I alluded to it also does requires self control which could mean going (gasp!) a whole 10 days without an orgasm. I can attest that a side benefit often referred to is indeed true which is the monthly honeymoon effect that results after the time of abstinence.

Sex is a learned skill. What you may not realize is that you are depriving yourself of valuable experience as to how to please your partner, especially since I assume you are also abstaining from masturbation (mutual or onananistic) and abstaining from oral and anal contact as well.

This is one situation where I can literally say you don't know what you are missing.

JonF,

You're right about that, and I appear to have been completely wrong. I was just reading up on some of the premodern societies with low birthrates (19th century France, and the Pacific island of Tikopia, among others), and coitus interruptus appeares to have been quite widely practiced. Moreover, it appears that natural family planning is actually a fairly recent thing (the pre-modern variety is the rythym method, which of course is far less effective).

Let me concede that I don't think natural family planning is workable for everyone, and certainly was not a particularly good method up until the 20th century. As I mentioned above, i don't have any particular moral problem with hormonal birth control, and I think that the Pill should be made available to people that want to use it to plan their families and avoid conception. I still maintain though that since NFP as practiced today can be highly effective, people who are interested in using it should be made aware of its efficacy and how to use it.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the stance of the Orthodox churches is on birth control? My impression was that they tolerate it, with some caveats, but I'm curious to learn more.

Gosh, really!!?? I am just a repressed Catholic and have no idea about these things. I now realize that the idea of there being any benefit to denying instant gratification is completely without merit.

You act as if depriving yourself of an orgasm is something akin to depriving yourself of a new iphone so that you can save the money for your retirement. In the latter situation, a critique of instant gratification would have some merit.

But not with orgasms. You see, you can have one today, and you can have another one tomorrow. It isn't an exhaustible resource (at least not at the frequency we are talking about here). So there's no concern about instant gratification doing us any harm.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Three years of marriage and we've just been lucky. Has nothing to do with the method.

You literally remind me of a teenager who figures it can't happen to her. Yes, the fact that its worked for you so far isn't any guarantee that it will continue to.

You literally remind me of a teenager

Literally? Not figuratively?

a teenager who figures it can't happen to her.

A teenager who figures it can't happen to her has nothing to base that on accept blind hope. There is an actual scientific basis for NFP.

Re: Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the stance of the Orthodox churches is on birth control? My impression was that they tolerate it, with some caveats, but I'm curious to learn more.

There's no one-size fits all teaching in Orthodoxy on the matter. You can find some Eastern moralists who oppose contraception as fiercely as Rome does (but generally not for the same reasons, since the Orthodox Church does not accept Natural Law morality and its Thomist underpinnings). However this is the minority view. Most Orthodox catechesis advises married couples to pray and seek the advice of their spiritual elder (generally their parish priest today). And those who use birth control to plan their families are not generally condemned. There is however a teaching that marriage as a whole must be open to children, even if specific sex acts are not.

Dilan,

I agree with much of what you are saying but I have to challenge your statistic about Poland. According to the United Nations, in the year 2000 only 5% of Polish women used the Pill, 38% used natural family planning, and 22% used coitus interruptus.

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2001/MostEuropeanWomenUseContraceptives.aspx

Sorry I don't have a more recent statistic. In any case, Poland certainly did have a below-replacement fertility rate in 2000, which means that that was achieved primarily through use of NFP and/or coitus interruptus.

JonF,

When you say 'the marriage as a whole should be open to children', do the catechesists specify a particular number? I.e. at least one, at least 2.2, at least three....? While I think that overpopulation is certainly an issue on a global scale, the Orthodox countries in general appear to have low populations uniformly declining birth rates, so I would understand why it might be reasonable for the Orthodox churches to encourage higher birth rates.

Are some forms of birth control permitted and others not? Also, what happens if your spiritual elder happens to be one of the conservative catechists who opposes birth control- do you have to follow their advice?

Dilan,

In your analogy, wouldn't orgasms be somewhat like ice creams in that the more you have, the less special they are, and the less you value them?

the Dani tribe of New Guinea typically abstain for 5 years following the birth of each child (ironically, this is the tribe who wears the giant penis gourds.) Presumably it's something fairly special for them, when they do indulge. I believe a similar situatiion characterized the precolonial Cheyenne.

you are depriving yourself of valuable experience

You need not worry about me. Users of NFP have just as much sex as those using artificial contraception.

http://www.local6.com/family/5083991/detail.html

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=332704

(sorry to burden you guys with so much correspondence, but i'm trying to get my blogging finished for a while before classes start tomorrow....)

JonF,

When you say the Orthodoxy does not accept the Thomistic underpinnings of natural law, can you elaborate on that? It seemed to me that while I might disagree with the conclusions of Thomistic natural law, it was quite convincing and strainghtforward as a framework for arguing about what ends and means are desirable for human behavior and social structures. Start by considering man as a physical/spiritual being with certain physical, mental, and spiritual features- certain capabilities and faculties. then examine how we should live in order to fully develop our faculties and capabilities, in order to live out our 'final end'. then set up a code of values, and rules, and social structures in accordance....for example, Simone Weil in 'The Need for Roots' tried to set up her own rival natural-law theory, based on different premises but the same type of reasoning. What is the Orthodox understanding of how to construct a basis for moral reasoning?

Jonf quotes and writes: "Re: If natural family planning is so innefective, then explain how France in the 1800s, or Poland today, were able to have such a low birth rate in spite of little use of artificial birth control.

Ever hear of coitus interruptus? That's not what is meant by NFP, and yes, it's not 100% effective either. But it is how a lot of people pre-Pill and pre-Condom prevented unwanted conceptions."

Looking around the net there was a study in 1978 or 1979 by someone named Van der Walle attributing the French phenomenon to just that practice.

I can think of some other possibilities but traditionalists may find them hard to, um, swallow.

Mark Adams writes: "You need not worry about me."

Why do so many conservatives and traditionalists use this stilted sort of language? Do they do it in real life?

I've been noticing this for years. Is there a secret squad of time-traveling Elizabethans among us?

I'm neither a conservative nor a traditionalist, but why not? Is it some sort of requirement of left-leaning politics that one needs to use the worst early 21st century permutations of Valley Girl speak?

I like a lot of the older English constructions, I think ours would be a richer language if we brought back the passive voice, the subjucntive tense, and more flowery language.

HD-G,

Are you really trying to reason with this guy? I mean, apparently he thinks the words "successfully conceive" are odd.

Mark,

maybe he doesn't like the split infinitive...:)

Hector:

Your statistics are labeled "1990's" in the article. It appears that under communism, Polish women used very few contraceptives, but they had abortions instead. Their abortion rate was gigantic.

In 1993, Poland banned abortions. What I can't seem to find is any evidence of Polish contraceptive practices POST-1993. It is possible, of course, that Polish women continue to rely on abortion illegally. (The Feminist Daily News estimates 200,000 illegal abortions a year in Poland.) In any event, absent data that segregates out pre-1993 and post-1993, I'd say your conclusions are a little sketchy.

In your analogy, wouldn't orgasms be somewhat like ice creams in that the more you have, the less special they are, and the less you value them?

Hector, you might want to ask a woman whether, if you only give her one orgasm a month, it is more "special" to her. Or whether she'd rather have more.

Orgasms are not a scarce good. It seems like a lot of the conservatives here are treating them as if they are one. That's weird.

You need not worry about me. Users of NFP have just as much sex as those using artificial contraception.

That's not the point. They could be having even more sex.

And further, to the extent these folks are conservative Catholics, they are also depriving themselves of other fun things in the bedroom as well.

Hector writes: "I agree with much of what you are saying but I have to challenge your statistic about Poland. According to the United Nations, in the year 2000 only 5% of Polish women used the Pill, 38% used natural family planning, and 22% used coitus interruptus."

I suggest you look into the availability of contraceptives in Poland, Hector. It's not a pretty picture.

I suspect our Polish friends are suffering from the Catholic oppressiveness Ireland has just recently shrugged off.

Hector writes: "Is it some sort of requirement of left-leaning politics that one needs to use the worst early 21st century permutations of Valley Girl speak?

I like a lot of the older English constructions, I think ours would be a richer language if we brought back the passive voice, the subjucntive tense, and more flowery language. "

Let me have a forsooth, Hector!

I don't think you can accuse me of using "Valley Girl speak," chuckles. I have my moments of lyricism and effective comedy. But you can take the "flowery language" and plant it somewhere close to Richard Nixon's malign bones.

Mark Adams writes: "Are you really trying to reason with this guy? I mean, apparently he thinks the words "successfully conceive" are odd."

For a supposed Catholic it is a very odd usage. All conceptions are "successful" in Catholic theology since they all result in the creation of a life. Since Limbo has now been abolished, even if that conception is aborted (in any way) the soul central to that life does not pay $200 but goes directly to heaven.

I'm surprised a heathen like myself has to explain this sort of thing to a Vatican Ace like Mark.

That's not the point. They could be having even more sex.

That's not the point? Really? I thought you reality based people loved empirical data. It turns out that we NFPers are having as much sex as the normals and your response is we could be having more. I suppose that's true but there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe we would be having more. What is it about people on NFP that makes you think that if they were put on artificial contraceptives they would have more sex than those people already using contraceptives.

I'm surprised a heathen like myself has to explain this sort of thing to a Vatican Ace like Mark.

I'm surprised too. Thanks.

And really Moe keep it up. I stand in awe of your rapier wit. You really are a comedy genius.

Mark Adams replies: "And really Moe keep it up. I stand in awe of your rapier wit. You really are a comedy genius."

I know you have ten days a month to fill, Marky, so I hope I give you a diversion. But I really wish you were bright enough to avoid using clunkers like "rapier wit."

I suppose if you were, though, you wouldn't be you. The extra 25 IQ points might have turned you into a real boy instead of JPIIetto's puppet.

If you don't get the reference ask Hector for help.

Mark again: "What is it about people on NFP that makes you think that if they were put on artificial contraceptives they would have more sex than those people already using contraceptives."

I can't speak for Dilan, but if you're under 50 or so and you're abstaining from sex for 10 days each month, you're probably not having as much sex as most people who have been married for 3 years are having.

But you can comfort yourself with some survey if it makes you feel differently.

Re: When you say 'the marriage as a whole should be open to children', do the catechesists specify a particular number?

No.

Re: Are some forms of birth control permitted and others not?

Abortifacient methods are to be avoided.

Re: Also, what happens if your spiritual elder happens to be one of the conservative catechists who opposes birth control- do you have to follow their advice?

If you have chosen someone like that for a spriritual elder then most likely you are like that too.

Re: When you say the Orthodoxy does not accept the Thomistic underpinnings of natural law, can you elaborate on that?

The Orthodox Church does not buy into Thomas Aquinas' scholasticism and its Aristoletelian foundations. The underlying metaphysics of Orthodox theology is almost completely Platonist.

Re: What is the Orthodox understanding of how to construct a basis for moral reasoning?

Orthodox morality is based quite simply on the Gospels as commented on by the Fathers and exemplified by the saints, with no real need for mind-bending abstractions. The Golden Rule is difficult to live of course, but not to understand.

But I really wish you were bright enough to avoid using clunkers like "rapier wit."

What clunker? I'm serious. Jokes about men with uteri; obvious and over the top mis-readings of other commenters' statements. It's all just comedy gold.

you can comfort yourself with some survey if it makes you feel differently.

I love it when the reality based community doesn't like the reality.

JonF,

so in principle, if some families choose to have only one child that is acceptable?

Interesting.....I was not aware that you could choose a spiritual elder (I was assuming it would be the priest of your parish, etc.)

Moe,

The low rates of contraceptive usage in Poland are more or less the same in 2000 as they were in 1990 or 1975. (I can furnish you the statistic if you want). Those were moments in time under which Poland was under a secular, Marxist regime whose relationship with the Church was rocky, so you can't blame the lack of contraception in 1975 on the Church.

Furthermore, I don't know that there is a single Catholic country in the world today where birth control pills are illegal, if there is I would be very interested to know.

Finally, why is it relevant WHY Poland has little contraceptive use: my point stands, that Polish women use primarily NFP/coitus interruptus, and it works for them, to the extent of providing a birth rate under 2.0.

... and it works for them, to the extent of providing a birth rate under 2.0.

Which should make us question, of course, the sense in which enabling people to reproduce below replacement rate should count as "working".

I don't know that there is a single Catholic country in the world today where birth control pills are illegal, if there is I would be very interested to know.

While not a Catholic country, Japan did not allow sale of the pill until 1999.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9505E5DB1139F93AA35755C0A96F958260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=all

Not true. The Church said that abortion was PERMISSIBLE before quickening for 1,900 of those years,

Ok. Dilan isn't a completely exasperating troll with no brain, like Moe, but I wish he'd actually learn a LITTLE more than what he read in some half-assed pseudo-Hitchens tract before tossing out facts about the Catholic church. Someone else already corrected this, but it gets annoying at times. Look, Dilan, it's fine if you don't know much about Catholic teaching. You're not Catholic, and don't believe in God. But at least check a reliable source or two before offering up such things. You're generally not totally in left field, you just don't check.

On the same note:

yes, your tax dollars should fund it for the same reason that I can't stop my tax dollars from funding the Iraq War or the death penalty.

Oh come on, Dilan. I hope to goodness that you try to vote for politicians who stop your tax dollars from funding the Iraq War and the death penalty, all things being equal. I do. What's the difference? You're trying to impose your beliefs on someone, as am I. Everyone does. This is a crazy little thing called "politics." You and I try to vote against people who want to continue the war; I may try to vote against people who support stem cell research on my tax dollar. Can you offer some principled difference other than "I, dictator King Dilan, declare that some reasons for voting for a policy are invalid"?

Carabass writes: "Dilan isn't a completely exasperating troll with no brain, like Moe"

In our last go-round, I stated that Ratzinger had been opposed to reporting Roman-collared rapists to civilian authorities. Carabass said I would not produce any evidence to support that claim.

I produced ample evidence, and eventually Carabass shut up about the matter.

Apparently Carabass has forgotten that humiliation. But then he thinks Ratzinger, a repeat defender of pedophiles, is a decent human being, and I think Ratzinger should be in a prison cell.

This really is some of the most sophomoric anti-Catholicism I have seen in one place in quite some time.

The volume of falsifiable facts concerning Church teaching is stunning. The ignorance of the nature of the abuse scandal is almost hilarious.

And who is the fellow that keeps insisting that Ross chime in and defend the entire magisterium point by point?

Thousands of years of constant teaching and the most advanced intellectual tradition of any world religion is not going to be "defeated" by tossing around tired smears.

Re: So in principle, if some families choose to have only one child that is acceptable?

I suppose so. I have never heard anyone say that having just one child is morally problematic.

Re: Interesting.....I was not aware that you could choose a spiritual elder (I was assuming it would be the priest of your parish, etc.)

well, for most people especially in the US their parish priest is it. In the old countries, and in the past, when monasticism was more common, people would often seek a monk (or nun) as a spiritual elder, and if the monk was also ordained (a hieromonk) he would also be their confessor. There was, I think, a sense that the parish priest was a busy man and perhaps a bit worldly (plus he had his own family too) so he might not be the best person to seek spiritual guidance from whereas a contemplative monastic would be an excellent guide.

Fitz ditz: "Thousands of years of constant teaching and the most advanced intellectual tradition of any world religion is not going to be "defeated" by tossing around tired smears."

I know True Believers like to use "thousands of years" constantly, but unfortunately it simply isn't true. The New Testament wasn't even cobbled together until the 4th century. That's 1600 years, chuckles. Do the math.

Priestly celibacy? Not a constant. Limbo? Here yesterday, gone today. Papal infallibility? Crap propagated in the 19th century. Galileo? On the books as a heretic until the 20th century.

As far as "ignorance of the nature of the abuse scandal," you're the ignorant one, pal. You and anyone else who makes excuses for the heinous behavior of the Church "fathers" during that still-ongoing scandal are moral lepers. If you had an ounce of human decency (though you don't believe there is such a thing) you'd be ashamed of yourself.

Thousands of years of constant teaching and the most advanced intellectual tradition of any world religion is not going to be "defeated" by tossing around tired smears.

Fitz:

Without identifying the smears, this comment is itself one. For instance, describing the Catholic birth control policy, i.e., that it is sinful for an African woman to insist that her HIV positive husband wear a condom, is not an anti-Catholic smear. Describing how the hierarchy facilitated the sex abuse scandal is not an anti-Catholic smear.

As I have said many times, the Church is a powerful institution-- it is treated as a nation-state! It seeks out a role participating in political debate. By doing so, it is going to get criticism. And sometimes, that criticism may be over-the-top or not entirely accurate. But that doesn't make the critics into bigots, comparable to people who enforced Jim Crow against blacks or people who refuse to allow gays and lesbians to visit their partners in the hosiptal.

Chuckles!! That's great. I love it.

Dilan Esper writes: "As I have said many times, the Church is a powerful institution-- it is treated as a nation-state! It seeks out a role participating in political debate. By doing so, it is going to get criticism. And sometimes, that criticism may be over-the-top or not entirely accurate. But that doesn't make the critics into bigots, comparable to people who enforced Jim Crow against blacks or people who refuse to allow gays and lesbians to visit their partners in the hosiptal."

Of course. Calling me "anti-Catholic" is absurd. Am I a critic of the Church? Absolutely. Do I harbor any bigotry against Catholics? Absolutely not. I don't think saying the Church behaved reprehensibly during the pedophilia scandal or that Ireland is better off now that it is moving in a more secular direction amount to bigotry.

This "chuckles" bit is like scraping of fingernails across a blackboard.

Moe, I still think you flatly misrepresented what Ratzinger said -- to such a point that the actual thing you were pointing to, which I do think was generally a bad decision on his part (though with a reasonable grounding in canon law, and some "in principle" supports that I think here were overcome in practice) was unidentifiable in the "paraphrase" you came up with. The point was actually relevant, it's your manner of presentation and "chuckles" and hostility that make you so unpleasant.

Thanks, Carabass. I find you to be very unpleasant also, so your opinion of my behavior means a whole lot to me.

I'll stand by my interpretation of Ratzinger's words. In his considered opinion as expressed in the letter in question, he thought acts of child rape committed by priests should be left undisclosed to civilian authorities and handled privately within the Church. You can think of that as a "bad decision," if you like. I certainly can't stop you. I'll continue to think that it marks him as a worthless amoral scumbag.


Moe,

My understanding is that the Church doesn't take its authority from the New Testament, on the contrary, the New Testament takes its authority from the church. In other words, the books that are in the New Testament were chosen because they reflected the thought and teaching of the Church, on the theory that the Holy Spirit would preserve the Church from error. So on this theory, it doesn't matter whether the New Testament was cobbled together in the 1st century, the 4th, or the 19th.

Anyway, the books that were cobbled together in the 4th century were presumably copies of copies of copies, etc. of oral traditions dating back to the time of JC.

You may or may not agree with the premise that the Holy Spirit preserves the Church from error. I don't accept it wholeheartedly, certainly I think that the Church has made errors both theologically and morally, and I would agree with you that at least some of the suppressions of rival books, and rival conceptions of Christianity, came down to brute force, who was the more powerful, not necessarily who had the better arguments or the most veridical experience of Christ. But the argument that the New Testament wasn't there from the beginning is really kind of irrelevant- the Church was there, which from the Catholic perspective is what really matters.

Moreover, you're picking a few examples of teachings that have changed, while ignoring the great number of moral and even more, theological concepts that have stayed the same.

Hector writes: "My understanding is that the Church doesn't take its authority from the New Testament, on the contrary, the New Testament takes its authority from the church. In other words, the books that are in the New Testament were chosen because they reflected the thought and teaching of the Church, on the theory that the Holy Spirit would preserve the Church from error. So on this theory, it doesn't matter whether the New Testament was cobbled together in the 1st century, the 4th, or the 19th.

Anyway, the books that were cobbled together in the 4th century were presumably copies of copies of copies, etc. of oral traditions dating back to the time of JC. "

You take the Church's word on where its "authority" comes from, Hector. I don't think it has any authority, any more than any other church or religious institution does. As for the "cobbled together" comment, I think it was fitting in answering Fitz and his "thousands of years" nonsense.

As for what Jesus actually taught or who and what he actually was, I can't really say. He and his teachings were buried under a mountain of legend and myth and Paulist doctrine in the decades after he died - assuming he wasn't a compilation of several characters. It's an interesting field for discussion.

And yes, many of the teachings have been consistent, but I don't see that as a great distinction for Christianity as opposed to other religions. I also think at least one major teaching - the notion of an eternal hell - is the single most revolting theological conception human beings have ever come up with. Nothing else even comes close.

Hector,

Jaroslav Pelikan does a good job (IMO) of describing the process here, though the textual assembly of canonical scripture isn't his main point, in most of his writings.

Dilan Esper |

Smears are a compilation of tone, ignorance, hostility and a grain of truth.
I never implied that the Church was above criticism. It was 5that the comments so far, with few exceptions) have been low-brow anti-Catholicism and just plain uninformed.

The comments of Marquis of Carabas & Hector Dauphin-Gloire have done a good job of illustrating some of the gaping holes in actual fact illustrated by most of the comments.

The very namesake of MoeLarryAndJesus shows the juvenile approach taken in this comment section.

For instance

“Priestly celibacy? Not a constant.”

This is verifiably false; starting even before Christ {a celibate himself} – Jewish law upheld the practice of celibacy. A celibate priesthood has been a constant tradition upheld within Paul’s Gospels and maintained institutionally within the Church. What he means (probably) is that a ALL celibate priesthood was not always the rule OR that there used to be married Catholic Priests. There are married Roman Catholic Priests today, in fact. The constant is a tradition of celibate priests.


You are correct; the Church is not above criticism… I just haven’t seen any.

Fitz types: "The very namesake of MoeLarryAndJesus shows the juvenile approach taken in this comment section."

In other words, you have no sense of humor. Got it.

" “Priestly celibacy? Not a constant.”

This is verifiably false; starting even before Christ {a celibate himself} – Jewish law upheld the practice of celibacy. A celibate priesthood has been a constant tradition upheld within Paul’s Gospels and maintained institutionally within the Church. What he means (probably) is that a ALL celibate priesthood was not always the rule OR that there used to be married Catholic Priests. There are married Roman Catholic Priests today, in fact. The constant is a tradition of celibate priests. "

Pure sophistry. You have no idea if Jesus was celibate or not, gay or straight, or even if he spent half the day fondling himself. No one does. You just assume that the fables you've been raised with are all true. That's what True Believers do. You would also insist that Mary remained a virgin her entire life, even though most non-Catholic Christians consider that belief to be absurd.

I'm sure there have always been celibate priests, just as there have always been celibate farmers. The point (of course) is that the Church did not make celibacy for priests the rule until roughly halfway through its history.

Your point about "not knowing" and "true believers" is a point you can make concerning any historical figure. We know only what we are taught.


"I'm sure there have always been celibate priests, just as there have always been celibate farmers.--- The point (of course) is that the Church did not make celibacy for priests the rule until roughly halfway through its history."


Well, then your point is wrong. Celibacy has always been practiced within the Church, honored and respected as a sacrifice for the heavenly kingdom - and most priests were celibate from the earliest days.

That’s a constant.

You have latched on to a half truth & stretched its context. (its even an anti-catholic mainstay used by early protestants to discredit the priest hood)

Try again.
(as stated “constant teaching’)

You are correct; the Church is not above criticism… I just haven’t seen any.

As I said, the criticism of the condom policy does not fit your definition of a smear. The condom policy really does say that an African woman married to an HIV-positive man can't ask her husband to use a condom.

Similarly, the sex abuse scandal really did happen, and one of the reasons it was so bad is because the hierarchy took the position for a long time that the police should not be called, files should not be turned over, and priests should receive treatment through the ministry and reassignment to other positions without warning the people in those parishes as to the priest's prior offenses. That was the Church policy which was dutifully followed. That is not a smear.

And you also missed my point about motive. Nobody here is saying what they are saying because they hate Catholics. They disagree, profoundly, with the political positions taken by the church, and with Catholic conservatives (importantly, MOST Catholics, at least in America, actually reject these positions, so maybe it's the conservatives who are "anti-Catholic").

This is quite different than people who discriminate against blacks because they are racists, or women because they are misogynist, or gays because they are homophobic.

I sort of agree with Dilan -- I think he's ill-informed and tends to take too much criticism of the Church as Gospel without checking the facts, but I don't think he's a bigot or animated by _religious_ animosity. Moe is another story -- I don't know if he's a bigot, but he's a twerp, and I think a visceral distaste for orthodox Christians is a primary motive.

Fitz,

You are probably correct that most priests were celibate from the early days, but wouldn't it be true to say that celibacy wasn't required. I remember reading in one of the Apocrypha about St. Peter having a daughter, and the letter to Timothy does say something about a bishop being the husband of one wife?

I don't personally believe that celibacy should be mandatory, I think it should be encouraged and admired but not required (perhaps like the High Anglicans, and maybe the Orthodox do?)

Moe,

if there was any evidence of Jesus having children, or a wife, I think there would be some trace of it in the literature? On the contrary, neither the official Church nor any of the various significant 'heresies', as far as I know, made any serious claims about Jesus having a wife, or a child. (The Christian heretics, since they took a dim view of sexuality in general, would have found the idea of JC having a sexual relationship even more offensive than the official Church.)

As for the idea of hell, what do you propose that God should do with people who do not want to spend Eternity with him. I personally believe that everyone will get a chance to know and love Jesus, if not in this world then perhaps in the world to come. But if some people choose to be unrepentant, then what would you propose that God do- change them by force?

My own views about heaven and hell are somewhat heretical, so I won't inject them into this discussion other than to say that the existence of free will means that some people are going to choose evil, which ultimately means choosing hell. What would your proposed afterlife be like?

Fitz again: "Your point about "not knowing" and "true believers" is a point you can make concerning any historical figure. We know only what we are taught.


"I'm sure there have always been celibate priests, just as there have always been celibate farmers.--- The point (of course) is that the Church did not make celibacy for priests the rule until roughly halfway through its history."


Well, then your point is wrong. Celibacy has always been practiced within the Church, honored and respected as a sacrifice for the heavenly kingdom - and most priests were celibate from the earliest days."

You may only know what you were taught, Fitzy. Some of us continue to ask questions and seek out additional learning. I'm not surprised you've never done that. Hell, you probably think the Little Drummer Boy is for real.

As for "most priests were celibate from the earliest days," how the hell do you presume to know that? Most priests aren't celibate now.

Carabass again: "Moe is another story -- I don't know if he's a bigot, but he's a twerp, and I think a visceral distaste for orthodox Christians is a primary motive."

I have a visceral distaste for the sorts of "orthodox Christians" who have been running/ruining this country for the past 6 1/2 years - that's certainly true. And for the "orthodox Christians" who are actually modern-day Pharisees - like Carabass and Fitz and their repugnant Prince Ratzinger.

I don't know if Carabass is a "twerp," but I do know he's a humorless prig with the morality of a March Violet.

Hector writes: "if there was any evidence of Jesus having children, or a wife, I think there would be some trace of it in the literature? On the contrary, neither the official Church nor any of the various significant 'heresies', as far as I know, made any serious claims about Jesus having a wife, or a child. (The Christian heretics, since they took a dim view of sexuality in general, would have found the idea of JC having a sexual relationship even more offensive than the official Church.)

As for the idea of hell, what do you propose that God should do with people who do not want to spend Eternity with him. I personally believe that everyone will get a chance to know and love Jesus, if not in this world then perhaps in the world to come. But if some people choose to be unrepentant, then what would you propose that God do- change them by force?

My own views about heaven and hell are somewhat heretical, so I won't inject them into this discussion other than to say that the existence of free will means that some people are going to choose evil, which ultimately means choosing hell. What would your proposed afterlife be like?"

I didn't say anything about Jesus having a wife or a child, Hector.

As for the rest of what you're saying here - is there some particular reason I'm supposed to buy into your conception of god? If there were a god I would guess it would behave better than most people tend to - but the biblical god behaves worse than Stalin did.

And having no reason to think there is an afterlife, why would I have a "proposed afterlife"? My objection to the Christian notion of eternal torture is based on moral grounds, not on religious ones.

Oh please. I'm not a humorless twerp, I just don' tthink you're very funny, Moe. Does anyone here? Please, stand up -- if you think Moe is humorous and insightful, keep those cards and letters coming!

I didn't call you a twerp, Carabass. I called you a prig.

And I know you don't think I'm funny. You seem like the kind of guy who likes "Mama's Family" reruns or the "Family Circus" cartoon. I don't think there would be much overlap in our respective humor preferences.

Moe,

Other than his position on abortion, stem cells, sexual fidelity being the best way to fight STDs, and perhaps a few other issues, I don't see that there's much Christian about GW Bush. Certainly nothing in his views of economics, foreign policy, or the environment strikes me as in any way Christian, or for that matter in any way moral. We could probably agree on many issues of practical politics if you werne't too busy slanging Christianity.

I agree with you that the Old Testament vision of God is often not a pretty picture, which is why I don't treat the OT with the same authority and reverence that I do the NT. The New Testament is quite a bit different, you could take a look sometime.

There are a lot of legitimate criticisms of the Church that you could be making, the problem is that all I have seen is exaggerations, half truths, and irrelevancies.

My question about the afterlife is intended to ask: assuming that immortal souls do exist, and something needs to happen to them after we die, if you don't think that heaven and hell are a good way to solve the problem that some people will choose evil, then what would your proposed solution be?

Ok, what do you find funny, Moe? "Chuckles"?

Hector: "I agree with you that the Old Testament vision of God is often not a pretty picture, which is why I don't treat the OT with the same authority and reverence that I do the NT. The New Testament is quite a bit different, you could take a look sometime.

There are a lot of legitimate criticisms of the Church that you could be making, the problem is that all I have seen is exaggerations, half truths, and irrelevancies.

My question about the afterlife is intended to ask: assuming that immortal souls do exist, and something needs to happen to them after we die, if you don't think that heaven and hell are a good way to solve the problem that some people will choose evil, then what would your proposed solution be?"

I'm very familiar with the New Testament, Hector, but I can't agree that it's an improvement on the Old. Ask any Jews you know if their religion teaches an eternal hell.

I don't think I've made any inaccurate comments about the Church.

As for immortal souls and a proposed afterlife, I'm sure we would disagree as to what constitutes evil, and whether Christianity actually deals with it honestly or realistically. Certainly a god who would create a sentient race knowing that the vast majority of them would end up being tortured forever would qualify as evil in my reckoning. But not in yours. The "evil" of rejecting such a concept certainly does not seem deserving of eternal torture (or even a term in Gitmo) to me.

Even if there is a god sorting out souls it would seem that simply annihilating the "evil souls" would be a better alternative than torturing the critters forever. But maybe I'm just not as sweet-natured as your god.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. People send themselves to Hell, by their own choice. Do you want God to force them into Heaven?

Hector again: "God doesn't send anyone to Hell. People send themselves to Hell, by their own choice. Do you want God to force them into Heaven?"

If god doesn't send people to hell, Hector, how do they get there? Do they take the bus?

I believe that may be true. However, the Church's real problem with molestation wasn't that its priests were raping more children than other clergy were - it was that the Church itself, as an institution, engaged in endless coverups and allowed pedophile priests to transfer over and over again.

Lest it be said I'm unwilling to note when a stopped clock gets the time right -- Moe's pretty much right on here. I think Ratzinger's recommendation was incorrect but not the heart of the problem, because the coverup problem doesn't appear to be present in every Catholic country. I don't know about Ireland, but I think systematic institutional habits in the American Church were central.

TMoC asks: "Ok, what do you find funny, Moe? "Chuckles"?"

I tried sending two links but they were held up pending approval - just in case, here are two sites I find hilarious:

jesusandmo.net
mrwiggleslovesyou.com

You seem like the kind of guy who likes "Mama's Family" reruns or the "Family Circus" cartoon.

And you are the kind of guy who thinks jokes about a man having a uterus and calling people chuckles is hilarious.

Ok, you got me. I was expecting some showing off here, something highbrow and ironic, genuinely clever and witty. At first glance, these looked pretty lame, but paging back a bit -- hey, some of these are fairly funny, above average for a webcomic.

Not as funny as Wodehouse, the Marx Brothers, or Sarah Silverman, but not bad.

TMoC claims that the "coverup problem doesn't appear to be present in every Catholic country." However coverups have been, uh, uncovered in several countries, and it is the nature of successful coverups to, uh, not be uncovered.

A previous Pope Benedict issued a document in 1741 dealing with sexual abuse by priests occurring in the confessional. This is hardly a new problem or a modern one, and it certainly is not a uniquely American one.

Eh, maybe sampling bias. There are some actual, well, chuckles, here. No belly laughs, though, and the average is not very good.

Mark Adams writes: "And you are the kind of guy who thinks jokes about a man having a uterus and calling people chuckles is hilarious."

The joke was about you not having a uterus, Mark. I'm assuming you still don't have one.

Calling people chuckles is not hilarious. The way they respond to being called chuckles often is.

Thanks for illustrating that fact yet again.

Do you do this "calling people 'chuckles'" thing in real life, too? How can someone not have murdered you by now -- you might not have family or friends, I understand that, but surely co-workers have some limits...

I'm assuming you still don't have one.

How does one man keep hittin em out of the park. Are you sure MoeLarryAndJesus isn't the name for a staff of four or five full-time writers?

Classic Moe. Just classic.

The joke was about you not having a uterus, Mark.

Here is what you said, "By the way, if I was mistaken and Mark Adams actually has a uterus, I apologize for making an incorrect assumption."

Now I realize it's hard to see but in there is a joke, the humor of which is based on me, a man, having a uterus.

"Do you do this "calling people 'chuckles'" thing in real life, too?"

Just on kids, who tend to react like you and Mark have.

Sarah Silverman is great. The Marx Brothers, too, but I do prefer the Stooges.

Wodehouse never did much for me. I prefer Twain and Vonnegut (at least up through "Breakfast of Champions").

As for Mark Adams, he should change his name to Don and get smart. But he'll probably just stick to his charts.

Yes, I'm disappointed with the level of detractors I have found on this comment section.

Yes Moe is particularly petty and juvenile.

Illustration.

"As for "most priests were celibate from the earliest days," how the hell do you presume to know that? Most priests aren't celibate now."

Uh...historians? We do know quite a bit about the past. We know the worldview of the ancients all the way to the moderns. People write things called books.

This is some strange crude reductionism equivalent to a "says who?" rejoinders.

I wonder if were operating according to the same definition of celibate or if he thinks I mean virgins or chaste?

He seems to be implying that the constant tradition of celibacy started with its Papal decretals and codification from 1298 all the way to 1582.
But then backs off into general sophomoric pap like above.

Occasional errors are inevitable, but here the extraordinary number of errors, often with reference to basic doctrines, implies a reckless disregard for truth. If he can’t get something as basic & well documented (like the Churches teaching on celibacy) correct…how can he be trusted on other matters.

He’s not an honest broker.

Well, yeah, Twain's a winner, no doubt. I don't agree on the Stooges, but it's a valid opinion.

Vonnegut -- hrm. I devoured the whole shebang long ago in early high school (when HOCUS POCUS, heaven help us, was the end of the mess), and even would defend BREAKFAST at the time. But he doesn't really stand up to re-reading that well, except maybe CAT'S CRADLE.

Fitz fits: " "As for "most priests were celibate from the earliest days," how the hell do you presume to know that? Most priests aren't celibate now."

Uh...historians? We do know quite a bit about the past. We know the worldview of the ancients all the way to the moderns. People write things called books.

This is some strange crude reductionism equivalent to a "says who?" rejoinders.

I wonder if were operating according to the same definition of celibate or if he thinks I mean virgins or chaste?

He seems to be implying that the constant tradition of celibacy started with its Papal decretals and codification from 1298 all the way to 1582.
But then backs off into general sophomoric pap like above.

Occasional errors are inevitable, but here the extraordinary number of errors, often with reference to basic doctrines, implies a reckless disregard for truth. If he can’t get something as basic & well documented (like the Churches teaching on celibacy) correct…how can he be trusted on other matters.

He’s not an honest broker. "

You're the dishonest one here, Fitz. No "book" exists which can possibly tell you that most priests were celibate in the early days of the Church. They may well have been called to be so, and most may even have striven to be so. So what? Human nature being what it is, there's no reason to think they achieved the goal, and ample reason to think they did not.

Reasonable people do not confuse the teachings of a religion with the way people actually live their lives. Honest people, even if they are adherents of a sect, should be willing to see the vast difference between what is taught and what is real.

As for books, I suggest you pick up Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" and see what he thought about celibacy in the priesthood. Or you can just consult your rosary on your way to your next Opus Dei meeting. Whatever works for you.

Oh, uh. Moe. Please, for the record, lay out what you think the term "celibacy" means. This may be of critical importance for the discussino.

And I'd wager that unless you count masturbation, though heaven knows how you'd ever get good stats on this, most Catholic priests are _chaste_ now (which I think is what Moe thinks the word "celibate" means).

Hrm, "chaste" isn't really the term we want, either. Let's abandon terms. Moe -- there is a very very long history of priests _not being married_, though it was not universal in all places and times.

The history of priests _not sleeping with anyone_ is a little harder to figure out, obviously, but the good money is that most priests in the US don't have sex with anyone.

As for Mark Adams, he should change his name to Don and get smart. But he'll probably just stick to his charts.

I know it's a clunker but what else to say but damn! that's some rapier wit. So devastating. So incisive. To be sure, it cuts to the quick.

Using a Maxwell Smart reference by way of Don Adams to tell me to be smart in such a seamless way. And then to land another blow by implying I'm dumb because I use NFP (we use a chart! got me again!) I mean honestly how do you keeping coming up with it? How do you keep all the pistons firing?

Moe, Since I have you here I am hoping I can benefit from your tutelage. I know I'm not the brightest bulb (Catholic + Charts = Grade A Maroon) but I'm trying to come up with some zingers and could use your help in crafting them.

Here is number 1:

"Hey bubbles, why are you so stupid? How about not being stupid or is that even possible with you? Stupid." What do you say, too subtle?

Number 2:

"I am hoping MLAJ will get 'moe' smarter but I fear he's just a 'stooge'." You see how I worked in the Three Stooges theme there?

I eagerly await your feedback.

Patience, Mark. I think Moe's off looking up what "celibate" means in this context.

It _is_ tricky. The word itself can be used to mean "not having sexual relations" -- a Venn diagram might be useful here.

“but if it hate crimes legislation would deter at least one more person from being killed, than it is worth it.”

Such rationales are inherently dangerous. Its moral grandstanding and requires no evidence that such legislation would actually deter such crimes. After all – the original point stands…murder is punishable by life in prison and even death in some states, yet such crimes still occur.

“How would the legislation harm anyone who isn't going to commit a hate crime?”

By politicizing crime so that certain privileged groups are seen as legally more worthy of protection than others it would undermine equality before the law and inspire tribalism.

Re: The New Testament wasn't even cobbled together until the 4th century.

This is not exactly true. It is true that the late 4th century saw the finalization of the canon of the New Testament since a couple of books (e.g., Revelation) were disputed, but certainly the four Gospels and the main Pauline Epistles had been recognized since the 2nd century AD.

Re: Priestly celibacy? Not a constant.”
This is verifiably false

Umn, priestly celibacy was certainly not universal in the ancient Church! In fact, until the 5th century there were even married bishops.
Re: Jewish law upheld the practice of celibacy.

???
I know of nothing in Judaism, ancient or modern, that advises celibacy (as opposed to chastity). This was more likely a borrowing from the more ascetic Pagan schools of philosophy, perhaps even the Gnostics, who saw sex as morally problematic in every and any context. Judaism on the other hand always affirmed the fundamental goodness of sex in its proper place within marriage.

Re: A celibate priesthood has been a constant tradition upheld within Paul’s Gospels

Paul wrote no Gospels.

Re: Celibacy has always been practiced within the Church, honored and respected as a sacrifice for the heavenly kingdom

True But:

Re: and most priests were celibate from the earliest days.

This is not true. Celibacy was common in the West, but not in the (more populous) East where a married priesthood was the norm, as it still is in Orthodoxy.

Did we overload the commenting software so that it is moving in comments Fritz made on some other thread?

{Sorry guys, my post above is a mistake: a paste from another conversation I was having}

Hector Dauphin-Gloire
”You are probably correct that most priests were celibate from the early days, but wouldn't it be true to say that celibacy wasn't required. I remember reading in one of the Apocrypha about St. Peter having a daughter, and the letter to Timothy does say something about a bishop being the husband of one wife?”

Yes, Peter was married himself – but the point I was addressing was the constancy of Church teaching regarding celibacy in the priesthood. It is common knowledge that a option for married clergy is Church policy not dogma or revelation.

“I don't personally believe that celibacy should be mandatory, I think it should be encouraged and admired but not required (perhaps like the High Anglicans, and maybe the Orthodox do?)”

Well, “High” Anglicanism has fallen on some pretty rough days of late, & the maintenance of their sexual ethic seems to be the primary culprit.

The eastern Orthodox cant be said to not have a mandatory celibacy policy. If a seminarian is not married at the time of his ordination then his vows are for lifelong celibacy. Furthermore, their hierarchy (Bishops and Superiors) are chosen exclusively from the ranks of the celibate clergy. It’s not like a celibate priest can suddenly decide to Marry.

Fitz,

"High" Anglicanism meaning the faction that is tends towards a more Catholic-type liturgy. These are, as far as i know, not the same faction who are promoting gay clergy, if that's what youre referring to. (I don't know that they even so keen on women priests).

My point is that there was a long time when celibacy was encouraged but not required, then in the 13th century it became mandatory (in Roman Catholicism, and not in the Eastern church.) It's true that the Orthodox place some limits on married priests (no marriage after ordination, no married bishops) but they do allow the existence of married priests, unlike the Catholic church. Thus, it would be true to say that they don't have a mandatory celibacy policy, in the same way that Catholicism does.

Celibacy in the Church is a fascinating topic... here's a little something from a site called FutureChurch.org. I'm sure Fitz will love it. Pope Urban's action in 1095 is worthy of Ratzinger himself.

Brief History of Celibacy in the
Catholic Church

First Century
Peter, the first pope, and the apostles that Jesus chose were, for the most part, married men. The New Testament implies that women presided at eucharistic meals in the early church.

Second and Third Century
Age of Gnosticism: light and spirit are good, darkness and material things are evil. A person cannot be married and be perfect. However, most priests were married.

Fourth Century
306-Council of Elvira, Spain, decree #43: a priest who sleeps with his wife the night before Mass will lose his job.
325-Council of Nicea: decreed that after ordination a priest could not marry. Proclaimed the Nicene Creed.
352-Council of Laodicea: women are not to be ordained. This suggests that before this time there was ordination of women.
385-Pope Siricius left his wife in order to become pope. Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives.

Fifth Century
401-St. Augustine wrote, “Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman.”

Sixth Century
567-2nd Council of Tours: any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580-Pope Pelagius II: his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children.
590-604-Pope Gregory “the Great” said that all sexual desire is sinful in itself (meaning that sexual desire is intrinsically evil?).

Seventh Century
France: documents show that the majority of priest were married.

Eighth Century
St. Boniface reported to the pope that in Germany almost no bishop or priest was celibate.

Ninth Century
836-Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.
St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century
1045-Pope Boniface IX dispensed himself from celibacy and resigned in order to marry.
1074-Pope Gregory VII said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: ‘priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.’
1095-Pope Urban II had priests’ wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century
1123-Pope Calistus II: First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.
1139-Pope Innocent II: Second Lateran Council confirmed the previous council’s decree.

Fourteenth Century
Bishop Pelagio complains that women are still ordained and hearing confessions.

Fifteenth Century
Transition; 50% of priests are married and accepted by the people.

Sixteenth Century
1545-63-Council of Trent states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.
1517-Martin Luther.
1530-Henry VIII.

Seventeenth Century
Inquisition. Galileo. Newton.

Eighteenth Century
1776-American Declaration of Independence.
1789-French Revolution.

Nineteenth Century
1804-Napoleon.
1882-Darwin.
1847-Marx, Communist Manifesto.
1858-Freud.
1869-First Vatican Council; infallibility of pope.

Twentieth Century
1930-Pope Pius XI: sex can be good and holy.
1951-Pope Pius XII: married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962-Pope John XXIII: Vatican Council II; vernacular; marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI: celibacy dispensations.
1970s-Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978-Pope John Paul II: puts a freeze on dispensations.
1983-New Canon Law.
1980-Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.

Popes who were married

St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)

Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy
Name of Pope Papacy Son of
St. Damascus I 366-348 St. Lorenzo, priest
St. Innocent I 401-417 Anastasius I
Boniface 418-422 son of a priest
St. Felix 483-492 son of a priest
Anastasius II 496-498 son of a priest
St. Agapitus I 535-536
Gordiaous, priest
St. Silverus 536-537 St. Homidas, pope
Deusdedit 882-884 son of a priest
Boniface VI 896-896 Hadrian, bishop
John XI 931-935 Pope Sergius III
John XV 989-996 Leo, priest


Popes who had illegitimate children after 1139
Innocent VIII 1484-1492 several children
Alexander VI 1492-1503 several children
Julius 1503-1513 3 daughters
Paul III 1534-1549 3 sons, 1 daughter
Pius IV 1559-1565 3 sons
Gregory XIII 1572-1585 1 son

History sources:
Oxford Dictionary of Popes; H.C. Lea History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church 1957; E. Schillebeeckx The Church with a Human Face 1985; J. McSorley Outline History of the Church by Centuries 1957; F.A.Foy (Ed.) 1990 Catholic Almanac 1989; D.L. Carmody The Double Cross - Ordination, Abortion and Catholic Feminism 1986; P.K. Jewtt The Ordination of Women 1980; A.F. Ide God's Girls - Ordination of Women in the Early Christian & Gnostic Churches 1986; E. Schüssler Fiorenza In Memory of Her 1984; P. DeRosa Vicars of Christ 1988.

Myths and Facts

Myth: All priests take a vow of celibacy.
Fact: Most priests do not take a vow. It is a promise made before the bishop.

Myth: Celibacy is not the reason for the vocation shortage.
Fact: A 1983 survey of Protestant churches shows a surplus of clergy; the Catholic church alone has a shortage.

Myth: Clerical celibacy has been the norm since the Second Lateran Council in 1139.
Fact: Priests and even popes still continued to marry and have children for several hundred years after that date. In fact, the Eastern Catholic Church still has married priests.

In the Latin Church, one may be a married priest if:

* one is a Protestant pastor first; or
* if one is a life-long Catholic but promises never again to have sexual relations with one’s wife.

Myth: The vocation shortage is due to materialism and lack of faith.
Fact: Research (1985 Lilly endowment): “there is no evidence to support loss of faith for less vocations...youth volunteer and campus ministry is rising.”

Gosh, Moe. With an unbiased source like that (and the mixed-bag of scholarly sources they "cite") I don't see how we can argue with ya. The man can google for places with a bone to pick, and canned half-accurate synopses to hand out.

Celibacy clearly isn't the only reason for the vocation shortage -- given that I don't think men were less inclined to like having wives sixty years ago when there wasn't a shortage.

Marquis,

As silly as some of Moe's comments might be, I think that mandatory celibacy is a bad policy for the Church, given 1) the fact that it dissuades men from going into the priesthood, 2) that it unfairly deprives priests of the possibility of a family, and 3) that it wasn't the policy of the early church. yes, I know, celibacy may have been encouraged, but it wasn't mandatory, as JonF points out even bishops were able to marry in the early Church. While, not being a Catholic, I would not want to tell the Church what to do, I really do think they have it wrong on this one.

i don't know how factual Moe's citations are, but if they are true, then they're definitely not very pleasant.

Arguably, the reason that the priesthood didn't have a shortage of vocations sixty years ago is because (I'm roughly paraphrasing what a friend of mine, a guy who left the seminary in the mid-1960s said to me), the priesthood, and the Church hierarchy as a whole, had a special status and glory, to share in that special status to many men was worth the sacrifice of celibacy. After the 1960s, the distinction between priesthood and laity was eroded a little bit, and the priesthood lost some of its special 'glamor' and so the benefits were no longer as great, while the costs were as great as before. Presumably, one way of dealing with the fact that the priesthood is less 'special' than it was then, is to reduce the cost and sacrifice of becoming a priest, i.e. to allow them to marry.

On a purely intuitive, emotional level, do you feel that it's fair to require men who want to serve God through the priesthood, to give up the chance to have a family? I don't (strictly intuitively) and so I think that mandatory celibacy is not a great idea. Especially since it wasn't (at least in its current form) the practioce of the early Church.

I don't think it would be a great disaster if the Roman Catholic Church were to adopt practices more like those of the Orthodox. I think the Protestant complete erasure of the practice does cause problems, and priests' families are a source of contention in a lot of Protestant churches.

TMoC writes: "Gosh, Moe. With an unbiased source like that (and the mixed-bag of scholarly sources they "cite") I don't see how we can argue with ya."

If you could, you would. Instead you impugn the source without debunking any of the claims it makes. And, of course, some of the sources cited are ones you would have no trouble with in any other circumstance.

"Celibacy clearly isn't the only reason for the vocation shortage -- given that I don't think men were less inclined to like having wives sixty years ago when there wasn't a shortage."

I would guess it's probably the single most important reason. But I'm sure there are others.

Yes, but when are you going to help me with my zingers Moe? I need you expertise.

Mark Adams asks: "Yes, but when are you going to help me with my zingers Moe? I need you expertise."

You have no natural aptitude, Mark. It would be like trying to teach Herve Villechaize to dunk a basketball.

And that's not just because of his dwarfism, but also because he's dead.

In the humor department you'd be facing that level of adversity. So stick to what you're really good at - drawing X's on calendars and taking cold showers.

I'm way late to the game here, but I can't help but throw in my $.02 on a subject as interesting as celibacy among priests (although far from the original topic!) As a Catholic, I respect and submit to the Church's practice of celibacy for priests. More, I'm fairly sure I understand it, and I don't think there's much support for tying the celibacy requirement to the sex abuse scandal - as others have noted, sadly, child abuse is not confined to Catholic clergy - (and I would never, ever defend it, seek to minimize it, or complain about "anti-Catholic" bias in the reporting of it, I mean, really...) - the coverup was the truly horrifying part, and that doesn't really have anything to do with any celibacy requirement - it goes to something a lot deeper in the Church that couldn't be changed by overturning one policy.

As I said, I understand the reasons for the celibacy requirement and, quite frankly, I'm very happy that the ultimate decision is made by those other than myself, because it's not an easy one. That said, there are either if the Church decided to change its policy.

From personal experience, I probably would be a priest but for the requirement. Now, that alone might be reason enough to have the celibacy requirement, but I have had several friends, brilliant, wise, kind, and deeply spiritual men, of whom the Church has also deprived herself because of the requirement. For me, and in much more of a loss, for my friends, the call to family was just too strong. Now it's certainly possible that both Church and my friends are better for them having to make that choice, I don't know. But we shouldn't try to pretend that there isn't a significant impact.

From a purely genetic standpoint, one would think you'd want to ensure that the genes of priests were passed on, they presumably representing some of the best and brightest. For the non-genetic determinists, from the standpoint of best social practices, you would think the same, except that, as was pointed out, the families of pastors has been a big problem for many Protestant churches, so it is more of a mixed bag.

Of course, it can be occasionally tough to swallow advice on sex/marriage/parenting from a priest who has never had those experiences, but sometimes that can be very valuable. It's a little easier for me to take than most, maybe, since my job is to advise clients about decisions I never have to make myself!

haha, edit much? the second paragraph of my comment should read, in the last sentence "I wouldn't complain a bit either if the Church decided to change her policy."

Mark Adams -

You should try to keep a sense of humor about NFP - as a practicioner, I have to admit, I find it pretty funny. Those graphs and the temperature readings and little notations for wet mucus v. sticky mucus?

Of course, it's also fairly ironic that many of the Whole Foods shoppers obsessed with organic food free of chemicals/hormones/etc. think nothing at all of treating their bodies with large doses of chemicals and hormones every day. I'm not ridiculing organic food at all, by the way - I'm a consumer of it.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. NFP is funny, but it's also a hell of a lot more scientific than just packing yourself with hormones or using a piece of latex. I know they say that it is just as effective, if not more, when used correctly, but it can be a lot harder to use correctly, particularly when alcohol is involved! Our first daughter wasn't exactly planned, though certainly welcome.

No doubt that NFP is the perfect method of birth control for happy married couples who are open to the possibility of having a child, and not necessarily for others. The thing is, under Church teaching, that's who sex is for, so no wonder the Church loves it...and no surprise that they don't like methods of birth control that are geared towards other kinds of sex.

Hugo,

If I appear humorless about NFP I apologize. My wife and I have had plenty of fun mocking numerous aspects of it. "What's the status? Sticky, tacky, sticky tacky, cloudy sticky?" And we often repeat memorable lines from our rather straight-laced instructors.

So stick to what you're really good at - drawing X's on calendars and taking cold showers.

And you keep ignoring the empirical data:
http://www.local6.com/family/5083991/detail.html

going back through all the comments backwards, it is easy to see why one would lose one's sense of humor about it, so I should be the one apologizing.

Incidentally, it sounds like we had the same instructors, but maybe they're all the same...

I think it's completely normal for any Catholic to question their faith at times; it's a part of growing as an individual and in one's faith. One must seek to understand more before he/she can be truly at peace. Most people have experiences that make them question their faith.
Since so many Catholics go through this, this makes Mother Teresa even more human and relatable; a role model for what to strive to be. Being a saint doesn't mean one is a completely content w/ his/her faith all the time, but takes what they can from their life and do good for others. What matters is that the person keeps trying, and does positive things.
Is there a truly "perfect" person out there? Too many people want to focus on the bad, when there is truly so much good.

You have no natural aptitude, Mark. It would be like trying to teach Herve Villechaize to dunk a basketball.

And that's not just because of his dwarfism, but also because he's dead.

In the humor department you'd be facing that level of adversity.

Really? No help in making strained, awkward references to '60s TV shows? No training in identifying minuscule and insignificant contradictions in other people's posts as a way of ignoring the substance of what they've said? No tips on mocking the sex life of married couples? What about your system for developing hilarious nicknames (Marky! Chuckles!). I am so disappointed.

And we often repeat memorable lines from our rather straight-laced instructors.

OHHHHHHHH, those instructors! Gosh was that experience a riot.

The textbook you get is even worse, though - some of our non-Catholic friends were interested in learning more about NFP and I was going to have to go through with a Sharpie blacking out all the times they beat you over the head with theology and moralizing.

Marky quotes and writes: "So stick to what you're really good at - drawing X's on calendars and taking cold showers.

And you keep ignoring the empirical data:
http://www.local6.com/family/5083991/detail.html"

I ignore it for very good reasons, Marky. First, the article you linked to provides no real "empirical data." It refers to a study - it's not the study itself. There's no information about the methodology, and there's no particular reason for me to take it any more seriously than I do articles about many other studies that I see on a regular basis.

Further, the study was done by a group at Georgetown which specializes in advocacy of "natural family planning methods." Anyone with any critical thinking ability would immediately ask if such a group would be likely to produce a study which might run counter to such advocacy - or if they ever have.

Gape-mouthed True Believers would read the article and call it "empirical," which is what you have chosen to do.

Marky again: "No training in identifying minuscule and insignificant contradictions in other people's posts as a way of ignoring the substance of what they've said?"

No, I think you have that part down. I mentioned the rhythm method, and you replied:

"It's not the rhythm method. It's called natural family planning."

But of course your hypocrisy in this instance will not be apparent to you.

By the way, Mark's "empirical data" producer also sells products, which is just swell. See www.cyclebeads.com.

I look forward to further debates in which Mark will be using Amway or Herbalife links to bolster his positions.

(I think anyone wanting to save 14 bucks could probably make their own CycleBeads out of used rosary beads. No need to thank me for the tip.)

I ignore it for very good reasons, Marky. First, the article you linked to provides no real "empirical data." It refers to a study - it's not the study itself. There's no information about the methodology, and there's no particular reason for me to take it any more seriously than I do articles about many other studies that I see on a regular basis.

I actually had searched for the study itself but my school does not provide electronic access to that journal. You were provided with more than the article. You were also provided a link to the abstract.

In any event I strongly urge you to contact the editorial staff at Cambridge journals as soon as possible so that you can alert them to the fact they have been duped.

By the way, Mark's "empirical data" producer also sells products, which is just swell. See www.cyclebeads.com.

Yes that definitely proves the invalidity of the study.

No, I think you have that part down. I mentioned the rhythm method, and you replied:

"It's not the rhythm method. It's called natural family planning."

Well there is an actual, substantive difference between the two phrases and your use of the phrase was intentional and not an innocent mistake. The term, rhythm method, is a term that is usually used as a pejorative and that's what I was responding to. Nevertheless you are correct, my correction on that mark was petty and unnecessary.

Marky again: "In any event I strongly urge you to contact the editorial staff at Cambridge journals as soon as possible so that you can alert them to the fact they have been duped."

I notice that you didn't answer a single one of my objections, or explain exactly what was so "empirical" about the information you provided.

I checked out the abstract, and it adds nothing that answers my questions, either.

I also notice that the abstract has links to two services that note where the article has been cited by other academics - and it hasn't been cited by any according to both services.

How singularly unimpressive.

By the way, Mark's "empirical data" producer also sells products, which is just swell. See www.cyclebeads.com. I look forward to further debates in which Mark will be using Amway or Herbalife links to bolster his positions.

I own a Sierra Club bookbag, a Brookhaven Laboratory courier bag, a Los Alamos "toothpick holder" (what normal folks call a shot glass), and a NASA coffee mug. What this does prove unequivocally is that I am a science geek. But what it doesn't do is invalidate any research performed by these institutions. Either the work (which I haven't seen) is sound, or it's not.

Gape-mouthed True Believers would read the article and call it "empirical," which is what you have chosen to do.

And those whose are completely blinded by their hatred of religion immediately discount the article because it might require acknowledging that orthodox Catholics are not the miserable, sexually repressed, cranks that your determined to see them as, which is what you have chosen to do.

Mark Adams quotes and replies: "No, I think you have that part down. I mentioned the rhythm method, and you replied:

"It's not the rhythm method. It's called natural family planning."

Well there is an actual, substantive difference between the two phrases and your use of the phrase was intentional and not an innocent mistake. The term, rhythm method, is a term that is usually used as a pejorative and that's what I was responding to."

My use of the phrase was intentional because "the rhythm method" was the phrase commonly used for most of MT's career to describe recommended Catholic family planning.

"While maintaining procreation as the primary function of intercourse, the December 1930 encyclical Casti Connubii by Pope Pius XI gave the highest form of recognition to a secondary—unitive—purpose of sexual intercourse. This encyclical stated that there was no moral stain associated with having marital intercourse at times when "new life cannot be brought forth." Although this referred primarily to conditions such as current pregnancy and menopause, the Sacred Penitentiary in yet another ruling in 1932,[18] and the majority of Catholic theologians also interpreted it to allow moral use—for couples with "upright motives"—of the newly created Rhythm Method.[17][19] In 1932 a Catholic physician published a book titled The Rhythm of Sterility and Fertility in Women describing the method,[12] and the 1930s also saw the first U.S. Rhythm Clinic (founded by John Rock) to teach the method to Catholic couples.[20] A minority of Catholic theologians, however, continued to doubt the morality of periodic abstinence,[17] and some historians consider two speeches delivered by Pope Pius XII in 1951[21] to be the first unequivocal acceptance of periodic abstinence by the Catholic Church.[12]

Humanae Vitae, published in 1968 by Pope Paul VI, addressed a pastoral directive to scientists: "It is supremely desirable... that medical science should by the study of natural rhythms succeed in determining a sufficiently secure basis for the chaste limitation of offspring." This is interpreted as favoring the then-new, more reliable fertility awareness methods over the Rhythm Method."

The phrase remained in common use long after 1968 among Catholics and was not considered "pejorative," although the method was not considered to be particularly effective. Having been alive in those days I can recall hearing the phrase fairly often.

"Nevertheless you are correct, my correction on that mark was petty and unnecessary."

Of course it was. And that was our first interaction. But then I'm used to that sort of thing from traditionalists, and I enjoy the opportunity to respond in kind, or even not so kind.

hugo says: "I own a Sierra Club bookbag, a Brookhaven Laboratory courier bag, a Los Alamos "toothpick holder" (what normal folks call a shot glass), and a NASA coffee mug. What this does prove unequivocally is that I am a science geek. But what it doesn't do is invalidate any research performed by these institutions. Either the work (which I haven't seen) is sound, or it's not."

I didn't say it did invalidate the work, of course. That's why I added it in a separate post after I had already addressed my qualms about the article. Neither Hugo nor Mark have bothered to address the central issue I raised - which is that a group based in advocacy produced a study supporting that which it advocates for. I think that demands a certain immediate level of skepticism, particularly when assessing an article and not the study itself.

Marky again: "And those whose are completely blinded by their hatred of religion immediately discount the article because it might require acknowledging that orthodox Catholics are not the miserable, sexually repressed, cranks that your determined to see them as, which is what you have chosen to do."

I don't hate religion at all. I've always been fascinated with it, in fact.

I suspect that "orthodox Catholics" have the same range of sexual desire other groups do - from uninhibited libertines to miserable, sexually repressed cranks. Of course I'm a first-generation Irish American and as far as I know all of my ancestors were Catholic - and all of my living relatives, to my knowledge, were raised as such - but I can honestly report that I've never heard a single one of them attach the label "orthodox Catholic" to themselves. They were just plain old Catholics.

I have obtained the study Moe and would be happy to email it to you.

I didn't say it did invalidate the work, of course. That's why I added it in a separate post after I had already addressed my qualms about the article. Neither Hugo nor Mark have bothered to address the central issue I raised - which is that a group based in advocacy produced a study supporting that which it advocates for. I think that demands a certain immediate level of skepticism, particularly when assessing an article and not the study itself.

Assuming you're correct, I agree with you (not to say that it couldn't be a sound study). I should add that most studies regarding sexual behavior involving self-reporting should probably demand a certain immediate level of skepticism, even if there is no immediately apparent agenda on the part of the study conductor. If a neutral party came out with a study saying the opposite of this one (not sure who a neutral party would be in this case, but let's table that), I wouldn't trust it any more or less without analyzing the methodology very closely.

Hector Dauphin-Gloire


I think we are talking at cross purposes. Let me explain a few things as to your question.

#1. It is Church law (not dogma or doctrine) that requires mandatory celibacy.

#2. The issue is NOT “should we allow priests to marry?” but RATHER – how do we best promote, honor & esteem the practice of celibacy.

#3. The scriptural basis for honoring celibacy is clear and unequivocal.

Mathew 19 (10-12)

“10 The disciples said to him, 'If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.'

11 But he replied, 'It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted.

12 There are eunuchs born so from their mother's womb, there are eunuchs made so by human agency and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.'”

Corinthians 1 (1-9)


“7:1 Now for the questions about which you wrote. Yes, it is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman;

2 yet to avoid immorality every man should have his own wife and every woman her own husband.

3 The husband must give to his wife what she has a right to expect, and so too the wife to her husband.

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and in the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

5Y ou must not deprive each other, except by mutual consent for a limited time, to leave yourselves free for prayer, and to come together again afterwards; otherwise Satan may take advantage of any lack of self-control to put you to the test.

6 I am telling you this as a concession, not an order.

7 I should still like everyone to be as I am myself; but everyone has his own gift from God, one this kind and the next something different.

8 To the unmarried and to widows I say: it is good for them to stay as they are, like me.

9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry, since it is better to be married than to be burnt up.”

So the question becomes.

What happens to celibacy (as practice NOT theory) if we allow Priests to marry.
I think if you honestly look at it – you will realize that this will ONLY undermine the practice of celibacy further.

Sure we could do it…. But what are the practical effects?

& (given scriptural support above)

Your comment ….

“I think that mandatory celibacy is a bad policy for the Church, given 1) the fact that it dissuades men from going into the priesthood, 2) that it unfairly deprives priests of the possibility of a family, and 3) that it wasn't the policy of the early church. yes, I know, celibacy may have been encouraged, but it wasn't mandatory,”

#1. No doubt.
#2. No…not “unfairly” (one is not required to enter the Priesthood – it is voluntary and this is a made a condition of service)
#3. No. its not proper to merely say it “was encouraged” – it was considered the superior –more Christ like – more Holy alternative.

Moe,

The efficacy of NFP, when used correctly, seems to be fairly widely acknowledged. Please find me a study that concludes that the perfect use failure rate is more than 3%. (The perfect use failure rate of condoms is 3%).

I wasn't a planned birth- my parents were not Catholics, or for that matter any sort of Christians, so I don't know what they were using but it certainly wasn't NFP. Condoms do fail too, you know.

NFP is currently used by a majority of Polish women, and by a plurality of women in India, and by a significant minority of women in Brazil, and all three countries have seen large decreases in the birth rate over the last few decades. In Poland, particularly, NFP is clearly effective since it is the only method used by most Polish women.

Hugo, I would like to take issue with your dismissive tone towards people who use hormonal birth control. The Pill is no more unnatural than an aspirin. (Both of which, come to think of it, are based on compounds found in nature). The Pill was developed by a Catholic doctor who believed (incorrectly, as it turned out) that the Vatican would endorse his discovery since it was based on analogues of hormones that were naturally present in the human body.

Most people who prefer organic food are, I think, doing it for environmental or other reasons, not for health. (I don't know that pesticide residues in food, in the concentrations they occur, are necessarily dangerous to the consumer; they are often dangerous to the environment and to farm workers, as well as creating insect resistance and thus necessitating a sort of 'addictive' spiral, which is why I prefer to avoid them). I don't think that the Pill is, in its means, necessarily any more artificial than any other form of medicine. and in terms of its end, NFP achieves the same end, almost as successfully, with the same intention. So I don't see a moral difference between them and I do really believe that the Catholic Church is wrong to condemn hormonal birth control.

And of course, NFP is used by lots of couples who aren't married, especially in the Third World, and other methods of birth control are used by lots of couples who are. Most non-Catholics, and even most Catholics in practice, do not accept the arguments against birth control that are supposed to be based in 'natural law' (i.e. self-evident to the informed conscience), nor do most non-Catholics appear to accept the blanket prohibition against all forms of premarital intercourse. The Pill, of course, doesn't protect against disease, so while it may make premarital intercourse easier, it can't be seen as a licence for promiscuity. (Barrier methods are of course another story).

None of this is intended to devalue the efficacy of NFP, but as Hugo says, it isn't right for everyone, so at least some other choices should be available.

Hector -

One may argue that the Pill is no less "natural" than aspirin (I'm not sure I agree) but that sort of illustrates my point, which is that there can be extremely serious health consequences for those who, for example, take aspirin every day. I really wasn't making any sort of moral argument about the Pill.

Many folks who buy organic and hormone-free food are primarily concerned with their own health and not only the environment (there are plenty of SUVs in the Whole Foods parking lot, although of course I agree with you that many folks, including myself, have concerns going far beyond their own health). I believe you are mostly correct about pesticides but that is only one aspect - there are also issues of hormones (for meat) and genetic modification, and people really are worried about possible long-term health consequences of these, because we don't really know what, if any, those consequences could be. I submit that the same may be true of the Pill. Many drugs come from "naturally occuring" substances but it doesn't mean we want to put them in our bodies, particularly not on a daily basis.

Of course, I'm not saying that access should be restricted, but only that folks might want to give a second thought to its use - and weigh various costs and benefits of different options. I didn't mean to be dismissive, but I see how I came off that way.

In an attempt to offer recompense for helping take this thread so far off topic.

I offer this article entitled The Dark Night of Mother Teresa
by Carol Zaleski

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=486

Hugo,

I didn't mean to sound too dismissive of your viewpoint either. I do agree that NFP should be presented as a realistic option for people, its advantages and disadvantages should be discussed. This was why when i talked to people about family planning, I did try to include a discussion of NFP as well. (I was working in a very poor country where NFP also had the benefit of being free). I just don't think that it should be presented as the only moral option.

If you weren't making a moral argument, then I'm sorry for assuming that you were. Are there actually any severe negetive health effects from the Pill?

Hector,

I've seen things thrown around, but I really don't know. I hope not. I think many women would tell you there are clearly short term chemical/hormonal effects, but I'm certainly not convinced there are any lasting ones. There is at least as much of a case to be made as for GM foods and hormone-fed beef, though (which is not much at this point).


Hugo,

Yes, I've heard about the short-term effects. The Pill has been around for about fifty years or so, so I would imagine we would know if there were any significant negative health effects.

I don't know that there are any documented health risks to hormone-fed beef or GM food; many people who oppose those things, of course, do so for ideological reasons (not that there's anything wrong with that) or because they're concerned that some effects could be discovered in the future.

Doesn't the Church actually permit the Pill to be used for medical, non-contraceptive purposes?

Mark Adams: "I have obtained the study Moe and would be happy to email it to you."

Sure, why not. This user name, @yahoo.com.

No doubt that NFP is the perfect method of birth control for happy married couples who are open to the possibility of having a child, and not necessarily for others.

Hugo, this is a very well-taken and sensitive statement, and gets to the problem I have with the position of many conservative Catholics on contraception.

One might say that there are two types of family planning: family planning to TIME childbearing and family planning to PREVENT childbearing.

NFP can be a very good method for people who want children, don't necessarily want them right now, but would welcome any child that was conceived. And I certainly have no problem with the method being promoted as a good possibility for those people (and one that avoids taking hormonal pharmaceuticals).

But for many people, they need a method that prevents any conception of a child. They don't have the money to pay for a child. They don't think their partner is ready to have a child. They have a career or are getting an education and a child would set their goals back. You will notice, by the way, that these reasons ARE NOT inconsistent with conservative Catholic teachings-- while it is true that some people may also want to bar any conception of a child for reasons conservative Catholics would find illegitimate, those are not the only people who need a perfectly reliable method of contraception.

For people in this second category, NFP is not a good method. It seems that Catholic conservatives have a lot of misconceptions about condoms, but condoms can approach 100 percent reliability where the user doesn't do obviously stupid things and a spermicide is also used. (They also prevent transmission of STD's.) And condoms with a backup method (such as another barrier, or a hormonal method) gets you as close to certainty as one can get in this life.

I think a lot of the problem here is that many conservative Catholics don't seem to imagine that there are a lot of people out there for whom having a child is simply NOT an option. And they require a different contraceptive calculus than people who are perfectly open to conceiving but just don't want to do it right away if they don't have to.

Since it seems like this thread has petered out, I have to say it was a blast.

Re: Furthermore, their hierarchy (Bishops and Superiors) are chosen exclusively from the ranks of the celibate clergy.

This is not quite true: bishops may be widowers. St Innocent of Alaska, having served as missionary in Russian Alaska with his wife and nine (I think) children, retired to a monastery in Siberia after his wife's death; but he was later elected Archbishop of Moscow.

Re: It’s not like a celibate priest can suddenly decide to Marry.

On very rare occasions this has been permitted, for example when a priest has been unexpectedly widowed and has young children.

Re: Council of Laodicea: women are not to be ordained. This suggests that before this time there was ordination of women.

Ordained to the priesthood presumably, as the female diaconate continued, at least in the East, for a long time after this.

Jon F.

"This is not quite true: bishops may be widowers. St Innocent of Alaska, having served as missionary in Russian Alaska with his wife and nine (I think) children, retired to a monastery in Siberia after his wife's death; but he was later elected Archbishop of Moscow."

Well, I was referring to the Eastern orthodox Church & not the Russian Orthodox. It does really reinforce my point about celibacy and the married priesthood as outlined by the Gospel passages & Paul’s epistles (above) & is entirely consistent with such a view of the priesthood & the married life.


"On very rare occasions this has been permitted, for example when a priest has been unexpectedly widowed and has young children."

Likewise the above. Interestingly enough, the Roman Catholic priesthood has quite a few married Catholic Priests leading congregations today.

Under a special papal dispensation, Anglican prelates fleeing their Church and wishing to become Roman Catholic Priests can enter fully into the Priesthood and are still validly
married with children.

Well, I was referring to the Eastern orthodox Church & not the Russian Orthodox.

The Russian Orthodox Church is part of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

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