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The Silence of God

24 Aug 2007 04:03 pm

That Mother Teresa endured a long dark night of the soul will come as no surprise to anyone who read Carol Zaleski's essay on the subject several years ago, but the depth and duration of her spiritual crisis nonetheless has the capacity to shock, and to humble.

Naturally, Christopher Hitchens has something to say about it:

In 1948, Hitchens ventures, Teresa finally woke up, although she could not admit it. He likens her to die-hard Western communists late in the cold war: "There was a huge amount of cognitive dissonance," he says. "They thought, 'Jesus, the Soviet Union is a failure, [but] I'm not supposed to think that. It means my life is meaningless.' They carried on somehow, but the mainspring was gone. And I think once the mainspring is gone, it cannot be repaired." That, he says, was Teresa.

I think that this is a rather poor analogy for all sorts of reasons, but chiefly because it conflates the experiential and ideological aspects of religion. One can, certainly, experience religious faith as a kind of ideological belief - as the adherence to a compelling and all-encompassing system of thought that explains the world and one's purpose in it. And this sort of belief is arguably analogous to Western Communists' (misplaced) confidence in Marxism generally, and the Soviet Union specifically. But the "mainspring" of religious faith for most believers - and particularly for a mystic like Mother Teresa - is the personal experience of God as a being who loves them and communicates with them, rather than the intellectual experience of Catholicism (or some other specific faith tradition) as a philosophical system that persuades them. This is why most religious people remain religious while being entirely ignorant of anything resembling serious theology, and indeed, why religious bodies can exist and thrive with at best a minimal theological superstructure. The theology is an attempt to make sense of the experience; the experience itself the primary thing.

So if one set out to find a secular analogue to what Mother Teresa experienced in her encounters with the divine, a more appropriate sneering comparison for Hitchens to employ might be to people caught up, not in an ideological fervor, but in a cult of personality - people who believed in the Soviet Union not for Communism's sake but for Stalin's, or in Nazi Germany because they were mesmerized by Hitler. And then her dark night of the soul would be analogous to, say, banishment from the Great Dictator's inner circle, rather than to ideological disillusionment. This analogy would seem to suit some of Hitchens' purposes, since he's forever complaining that the Judeo-Christian God is a totalitarian despot; on the other hand, the thing about cults of personality is that the personality in question tends to be, you know, real, which is hardly a notion that Hitchens is likely to entertain where Mother Teresa's God is concerned.

And his unwillingness to even entertain it is one of the (many) reasons why Hitchens' brief against religion is so thin: An ideologue himself, he finds it easiest to argue against faith-as-ideology, while leaving largely untouched the more difficult and more important question of what we should make of faith-as-experience. Confronting the case of Mother Teresa, who experienced the presence and love of Jesus Christ intensely throughout her young adulthood and (understandably) made these experiences the basis for her career as a missionary nun, Hitchens is like a man who seeks to disprove not only the faithfulness but the very existence of a woman's absent lover by arguing that her mind is held captive by a primitive, oppressive and dangerous theory of eros. Even if such an ideological critique were true (and obviously I find Hitchens unpersuasive on this count as well), it wouldn't get him where he wants to go, because the crucial question - whether the original experience itself is real; whether the now-absent lover still loves her, and whether he exists at all - would remain unanswered, and indeed unaddressed.

Comments (248)

Mother Teresa was like a young girl infatuated with a singer/pop star - let's call him Bobby Cassidy - who thinks she's in love with him and that the form letters she gets from his fan club are personal love letters. Then one day she finds out they're form letters and she hears he actually isn't the sweet guy he pretends to be on his TV show. She also starts to realize his records suck.

In most cases these girls throw out the records and the fan club crap and forget about Bobby Cassidy.

Not Mother Teresa. She went on telling everyone how special Bobby was and how much he loved her and how much he would love them, even though she didn't believe a word of it. And she did this for decades while watching people die. She even went on preaching against birth control because that's what Bobby would have done. Uh huh.

It's damned creepy. Hitchens may have gone crazy over Iraq but he's right on target about Teresa, a scam artist who built an empire on pain.

the distinction between ideology/theology and mysticism/experience is pretty important. that being said, i do think that some leftists viewed communism and its utopian eschatology with a hope which transcended the cult-of-personality. stalin was going to usher in the age of heaven upon earth, but when he died others could no doubt fill that same role.

Pretty sharp analysis. Having grown up in an evangelical community, I often wondered why so many Protestant Christian people I knew were so ignorant of what was actually in the Bible, while the Catholics and Mormons I knew really understood their stuff. I eventually came to the realization that, with the Protestants, their bond with God, was personal, emotional, and not based on an actual creed--they just felt that Jesus loved them. Which I found a little annoying, as my Christian faith was based more on reason and study than on mysticism and feeling, which I thought was silly, unserious, and arbitrary. It does seem as though that is how most people (and especially most evangelicals) see their relationship with God.

I'M STILL WAITING FOR ROSS DOUTHAT TO DEFEND THE TRUTH CLAIMS OF HIS OWN RELIGION.

(Or for someone to point me to any essay in which he does...)

razib writes: "i do think that some leftists viewed communism and its utopian eschatology with a hope which transcended the cult-of-personality. stalin was going to usher in the age of heaven upon earth, but when he died others could no doubt fill that same role."

Sure - Communism is very similar to Christianity in that regard. "You'll get pie in the sky when you die."

The revelation that, for all intents and purposes, "Mother" Teresa did not believe in God serves as a pretext for an attack on Christopher Hitchens. Meanwhile, Teresa's suffering is somehow an affirmation of faith. Displacement and denial--they'll get you through the night. One night, at least.

So now Teresa isn't a proper Catholic (saint and all) but a "mystic" whose belief in a (highly unCatholic) personal Lord and Savior legitimizes her in the eyes of another devout Catholic. Sure. Whatever.

Emphasis on *personal* that is. I don't know which amuses me more, the hierarchical Roman Catholic approach to Christianity or the solipsistic Protestant one. The one basically encourages the church to act like God, and the other basically encourages YOU to. Teresa, of course, wasn't self-absorbed AT ALL; her massive celebrity and money laundering didn't leave any time for that.

Man, the comments around here sure do get weird sometimes ...

Isn't there something in the Bible about "You shall know me by the Fruits" (of the Spirit) (sorry, not a great Biblical authority).

So, one could argue that, *even in her doubt* the Lord/Jesus/God was at work through her activities. She *did* manage to run a charity that provided succor to the most destitute of Indians.

Ah, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

I think most of us would be pretty satisfied to have provided as much improvement/comfort to individual lives as Mother Teresa did. In my understanding of Christianity, that puts one on the side of Jesus, regardless of one's "faith crisis." She certainly was a vessel of goodness.

She also provided "succor" to the Duvaliers of Haiti, cj, and her hospices denied painkillers to many patients and kicked dying men out for the great sin of drinking. But above that, she actively dissuaded poor Indian women from using birth control. You can try to make a case for the "goodness" of sitting around smiling while people die and procreate beyond their means as their children starve, but I'm fairly sure I won't be persuaded.

What made her more moral than Jack Kevorkian, who didn't lie to the people he cared for? Nothing. But he was imprisoned due to Christian morality, and she was lionized.

Theresa of Calcutta visited the US in 95 or 96 . I had the opportunity to duck out of the office during lunch to stand amongst the pilgrims trying to catch a glimpse of this living saint. The news this week makes me regret anew the fact that I squandered the chance in favor of paperwork. The world won't see her like again soon.

Pray for Hitchens's conversion.


It is a sad story.
It is a collective crime to a nice person.
It was a kind of coercive tortured life worse than a life time of worst ferderal prison for her.
and the crowd mob mockingly praised her into saint. what a joke and collective criminal attitude of worldy goodness while pushing a person into hell of life. ising praise, a joke.
If Jesus comes now, he will scold people committing crime in his name.
I applogize to her for our sham crime.
I embrace her with my warm friendship in a nice cruise ship travel. She doesn't need a saint after death, but many touching friends and joyful moments while she lived.
This is a mockery of truth in the name of Jesus.
Jesus will not premit this criminal mockery of evil poeple in his name, a contorted truth.

Jesus, Son of Man, forgive our collective crimnal joke to a nice person.

I met her on a few occasions, a private meeting left no doubt in my mind that she spent her whole life trying to answer the Mahatma's statement re her religion." I would consider being a Christian if I ever met one". She radiated the Life and Love of God as described in Newman's Jesus Prayer. "Let me shine so to shine as be a light to others, the Light oh Jesus will be all from you ,none of it will be ours, it will be You shining on those around us". True, true, true.

Theresa of Calcutta visited the US in 95 or 96 . I had the opportunity to duck out of the office during lunch to stand amongst the pilgrims trying to catch a glimpse of this living saint. The news this week makes me regret anew the fact that I squandered the chance in favor of paperwork. The world won't see her like again soon.

Pray for Hitchens's conversion.

*gag*

I met her on a few occasions, a private meeting left no doubt in my mind that she spent her whole life trying to answer the Mahatma's statement re her religion." I would consider being a Christian if I ever met one". She radiated the Life and Love of God as described in Newman's Jesus Prayer. "Let me shine so to shine as be a light to others, the Light oh Jesus will be all from you ,none of it will be ours, it will be You shining on those around us". True, true, true.

This perfectly encapsulates the typical solipsism of the religious mindset.

On the other hand, you could get over yourself and stop trying to be the Blessed Saint every waking minute. Constantly Radiating the Life and Love of God may go far towards turning yourself into a one-person institution and brand name, and thus inspiring devotion from vicarious hero worshippers. But I bet it'll do precious little to actually advance the well-being of people in actual need. Mother Teresa merely associated herself with the downtrodden in the name of proselytism; and the people she actually "helped" (i.e. "inspired") were basically idolaters like some of the commenters here -- i.e. people who would never dream of following in her footsteps. I'll take a Peace Corps volunteer any day. You admire an ascetic posing as a philanthropist.

Re: So now Teresa isn't a proper Catholic (saint and all) but a "mystic" whose belief in a (highly unCatholic) personal Lord and Savior legitimizes her in the eyes of another devout Catholic.

I'm not sure what your point in, but Catholic theology certainly embraces the mystic approach of an intensely personal experience of God. Therre have been more than a few saints who walked this path, inlcuding the two Teresas after whom this Teresa named herself (St Teresa of Avila and St Teresa of Liseux)

Re: What made her more moral than Jack Kevorkian, who didn't lie to the people he cared for?

"Dr" Kevorkian assisted depressed people in suicide. What's laudatory about that? As for the drinkers kicked out of the hospices, I suspect there was more to it than that. The Roman Catholic Church has no moral ban on alcohol. You might wish to consider that the drinkers were chronic alcoholics who actions were disruptive and perhaps even dangerous. Such people would have to be dealt with severely in any homeless shelter, hospital or hospice in this country too, and anywhere else.

I'm not sure what your point in, but Catholic theology certainly embraces the mystic approach of an intensely personal experience of God. Therre have been more than a few saints who walked this path, inlcuding the two Teresas after whom this Teresa named herself (St Teresa of Avila and St Teresa of Liseux)

I'll bear that in mind if I'm ever thinking about
"walking that path" and becoming a Catholic saint.

"Dr" Kevorkian assisted depressed people in suicide. What's laudatory about that?

Kevorkian really meant to relieve not people who were merely "depressed" rather in terminal and intolerable physical pain.

As for the drinkers kicked out of the hospices, I suspect there was more to it than that. The Roman Catholic Church has no moral ban on alcohol. You might wish to consider that the drinkers were chronic alcoholics who actions were disruptive and perhaps even dangerous. Such people would have to be dealt with severely in any homeless shelter, hospital or hospice in this country too, and anywhere else.

Uh huh. The only way any self-respecting homeless shelter can maintain normalcy is by keeping out the drinkers. Wouldn't want to disrupt or endanger the people already living in unhygienic squalor and busy dying of typhoid.

All this talk about religion is silly.

Saint T types: " I embrace her with my warm friendship in a nice cruise ship travel. She doesn't need a saint after death, but many touching friends and joyful moments while she lived.
This is a mockery of truth in the name of Jesus.
Jesus will not premit this criminal mockery of evil poeple in his name, a contorted truth.

Jesus, Son of Man, forgive our collective crimnal joke to a nice person."

Um, okay. How do you like writing for "The Onion," anyway?

An ideologue himself, he finds it easiest to argue against faith-as-ideology, while leaving largely untouched the more difficult and more important question of what we should make of faith-as-experience.

But the problem is, faith as experience is no threat to Christopher Hitchens or me or anyone else. But faith as ideology is. And too many believers may very well maintain personal faiths that are based on experience, but who insist nonetheless that the rest of us live by the ideology that they actually hold grave doubts about.

I think the mysticism of Catholocism and other great religions is deserving of great respect and tolerance. Nobody can walk into one of the great Catholic cathedrals of the world and not be awed. But if you don't want Christopher Hitchens types to treat your religion as an ideology, stop trying to impose those ideological beliefs on the rest of us.

This perfectly encapsulates the typical solipsism of the religious mindset.

Of course, secular people are never solipsistic. Hurray for them!

Dilan, perhaps you should look up the definition of "impose". Making claims about how things ought to be is not imposing.

About the birth control stuff -- it could be that Catholics aren't utilitarians. That is, their highest goal might not be the relieving of pain or the maximization of pleasure but encouraging of conduct that exemplifies (what they regard as) certain virtues -- e.g., temperance, etc. Now, it's a vexed question what to do with someone who you know is going to have sex, with or without birth control. Should you give the person birth control, effectively giving up on counseling them not to have premarital sex? Or should you not give the person birth control, knowing (well, not "knowing", but at least believing with justification) that they're going to have sex anyway?

For a utilitarian, the answer is easy: give them birth control, since there's nothing wrong with using birth control anyway. But for the Catholic non-utilitarian, the answer is not.

I suspect that most of you will think this simply shows the moral depravity of Catholicism. And maybe it does. But I suspect you would condemn any non-consequentialistic morality as depraved whenever it counsels acting in such a way that the good is not maximized.

I look forward to getting ridiculed for my stupidity and villainy, etc., etc.

"Religious experiences of God can only be explained by the existence of God."

1. Some people's experiences will be of a god who has reported features such that their experiences will be rejected as veridical by believers like Douthat and M. Theresa. When a dispute arises about earthly phenomena--about the fit between subjective experience and occurrences out there--we can all go out there, or access evidence indicative of what's going on out there, and determine which experience is veridical. When it comes to heavenly phenomena, to the supernatural, access is limited to subjective experience, and hence we can't get beyond it to settle what the experience really indicates.
2. There are on offer a number of plausible, non-supernatural, explanations of religious beliefs. (Atran's, Boyer's, Bloom's) If they're right, the quoted statement is false.
3. I gather that in her early years M. Theresa experienced the presence of God, and then for the many years later experienced only His painful absence. Suppose one grants the premise that subjective religious experience can be veridical. If so, might not the experience of the absence of God on the part of one desirous of and expert in experiencing Him be taken as experiential evidence of the non-existence of God?

Re: Sextus Empiricus's last question:

It would be really weird for someone to have a veridical experience of God and then a veridical experience of non-God -- it would imply that God existed until, what, 1948? And then died or something? I guess if you were empirically minded enough, maybe that would be true.

But regardless, it seems to me to be odd to imagine how you could have an experience of something's non-existence. What's the felt difference between someone's being away on a trip and someone's being out of existence altogether? I doubt there's much, if any, story to be told here, so I'm guessing that no, you can't an experience of the non-existence of God.

Sorry, by "non-God" I meant "God's not existing".

Bill, comments about "the religious mindset" (never mind the reductionism) might contribute more to a productive discussion if they weren't suffocating under the weight of that enormous chip on your shoulder.

I guess I'm from the pot-meet-kettle school. Why don't the Hitchens of the world see the possibility that their own psychology / experiences color and perhaps distort their conclusions? What about the delusions of various secular ideologies? What about the highest number of atrocities in human history being the fruit of secular ideologies? Or if a sharp distinction is drawn between these ideologies and the madmen (Stalin, Hitler) who distorted them, why do religious claims and those who distort them get conflated? It seems that our problems are not merely religious, but human.

Bobcat writes: "About the birth control stuff -- it could be that Catholics aren't utilitarians. That is, their highest goal might not be the relieving of pain or the maximization of pleasure but encouraging of conduct that exemplifies (what they regard as) certain virtues -- e.g., temperance, etc. Now, it's a vexed question what to do with someone who you know is going to have sex, with or without birth control. Should you give the person birth control, effectively giving up on counseling them not to have premarital sex? Or should you not give the person birth control, knowing (well, not "knowing", but at least believing with justification) that they're going to have sex anyway?"

I suppose I should respond to this since I brought up the issue of birth control. My comment about MT discouraging the use of birth control by poor Indian women isn't even remotely connected to any argument about 'premarital sex.' She condemned its use by MARRIED WOMEN. Your comment is a total non sequitur.

In a teeming slum, when married women wanted to use birth control in order to avoid having more children they couldn't feed, MT actively discouraged them from using any method but abstinence or the ever-popular rhythm method.

I'll bear that in mind if I'm ever thinking about
"walking that path" and becoming a Catholic saint.

That wasn't the point the Bill. The point was for you to stop writing on topics about which you appear to be entirely ignorant.

Someone who think mysticism and a personal relationship with Jesus to be at odds to Catholicism simply should not be writing about Catholicism.

or the ever-popular rhythm method

It's not the rhythm method. It's called natural family planning. And I use it. And it works.

Re: Kevorkian really meant to relieve not people who were merely "depressed" rather in terminal and intolerable physical pain.

A fair number of his victims were in the former category, not the latter. I seem to recall that there was one woman, though diagnosed with an incurable illness which would someday kill her, yet was hale and hardy enough to play a match of tennis shortly before her terminal appointment with the ghoulish doctor.
Now, there is indeed a problem with inadequete pain management in many terminal cases, I will grant you that-- and this is due in the main to the war of drugs which demonizes and perhaps crminalizes doctors who prescribe large quantities of narcotics. Nor do I have any trouble with the old and very common practice of giving the just-about-to-die patient narcotic doses sufficient to ease him or her peacefully out of life at the very end. But the notion that we should kill ourselves the moment we get unhappy health news strikes me as repugnant and cowardly. (FYI: I am a leukemia survivor so these issues are not merely hypothetical for me.)

Re: But if you don't want Christopher Hitchens types to treat your religion as an ideology, stop trying to impose those ideological beliefs on the rest of us.

I sometimes feel this way about the Religious Right too, especially when their homophobic demagogues are holding forth (I am gay). But then: I believe very firmly in the moral necessity of universal healthcare and at least some of that belief is grounded in my religion. Should I therefore be banned from speaking up on this issue, lest I too be guilty of trying to impose my ideology on others? Is it even possible to have a politics in which deeply held ideological beliefs do not come into sharp and sometimes fierce conflict with each other?

Re: In a teeming slum, when married women wanted to use birth control in order to avoid having more children they couldn't feed, MT actively discouraged them from using any method but abstinence or the ever-popular rhythm method.

I happen to regard the RC teaching on contraception as incoherent, absurd and flat out wrong. And yes, this is a blot on Mother Teresa and other modern Catholic workers in her tradition. But since when do we require saints to be infallible, or heroes to be impeccable? Let's recall that some of our own Founding Fathers owned slaves-- does that mean that we dare not admire their actions and ideas and even their character in matters not toucing on that particular evil?

Mark Adams-
My words were "personal Lord and Savior" not "personal relationship." Go study Catholicism yourself.

Actually, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, et al are rather spooked by seriously religious people. Hitchens, grasping at the straw of Mother Teresa's spiritual crisis, has little understanding or appreciation of the depth of faith that lasted to the end and caused her to build a fine arm of the Church.

My guess is that the recent spate of anti-religious books comes from a certain despair that radical secularism is being slowly but surely moved aside by a resurgence of serious religion. How else explain the influence people like John Paul II and Teresa, or even Neuhaus in the U.S.

Hitchens, grasping at the straw of Mother Teresa's spiritual crisis, has little understanding or appreciation of the depth of faith that lasted to the end and caused her to build a fine arm of the Church.

Or maybe, rather, he does possess such an understanding, and is in rebellion against his own nature. I personally think some of us will live to see this great man's religious conversion. It would truly be a miraculous sign.

But if you don't want Christopher Hitchens types to treat your religion as an ideology, stop trying to impose those ideological beliefs on the rest of us.

It doesn't bother me in the least when Hitchens treats my religion as an ideology, because it is an ideology. He's a first rate writer and polemicist in my view, and a man or gargantuan moral courage. Petty faiths attract petty enemies, but in the non-pettiness department, Hitchens ranks right up there with the Prince of Darkness himself. Which tells me God has been doing something right these last couple two millennia (to attract such a worthy opponent). Hitchens is too deep a thinker to be stuck in his dreary utilitarianism much longer.

So, no, sorry, no deal -- I shall continue to use my vote and pen to try to impose at least some of my ideological beliefs (principally those involving the injunction against murder, and the call to social justice) on you. I presume you'll do the same.

My words were "personal Lord and Savior" not "personal relationship." Go study Catholicism yourself.

It doesn't matter Bill. Neither phrase articulates something at odds with Catholic theology.

And if it were it wouldn't really matter since it's not language used by Ross in his characterization of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta's life.

You are correct though, I do need to study Catholicism and it should please you to know that I make it a priority to receive regular catechesis on my faith.

Whether it's married sex or premarital sex doesn't much change the issue. The point is, orthodox Catholics think that the use of birth control by anyone is immoral, similar to how Kant thought that even lying to the murderer at your door was immoral. You might think this position crazy, but for them, the use of birth control is immoral, and you're not supposed to condone immorality, even if by doing so you prevent another (sometimes worse) harm.

Mike S:

Banning gay marriage and legalizing discrimination against gays is imposing. Banning abortion and restricting access to contraception is imposing. Refusing to fund stem cell research is imposing. Introducing prayer and creationism into the schools is imposing.

What you are ignoring is that there is a big gap between justifying one's faith based on experiencing the holy spirit, but saying that the laws must reflect doctrines that the believers themselves have grave doubts about.

Jasper:

What I was directing my comments at was Ross' justification of his own faith on experiential grounds. If the position is "I have doubts about doctrine, but not about the existence of God", then it really pulls the rug out of the justification for forcing the rest of us to live according to those same doctrines (i.e., as to who we can sleep with, when, whether we can use contraception or have abortions, whether we can research on embryonic stem cells, etc.).

Mark Adams writes: "or the ever-popular rhythm method

It's not the rhythm method. It's called natural family planning. And I use it. And it works."

It's also called the rhythm method, chuckles. You could even look it up. And of course it works for you. You have no uterus.

Refusing to fund [embryo destructive] stem cell research is imposing.

So unless we agree to have our tax dollars spent on what we believe to be the killing of human life, we are imposing our beliefs??

Look it up where?

And by the way Moe, you should be happy to know that you really are as clever and funny as you think.

Bobcat replies: "Whether it's married sex or premarital sex doesn't much change the issue. The point is, orthodox Catholics think that the use of birth control by anyone is immoral, similar to how Kant thought that even lying to the murderer at your door was immoral. You might think this position crazy, but for them, the use of birth control is immoral, and you're not supposed to condone immorality, even if by doing so you prevent another (sometimes worse) harm."

But since MT had lost her faith, by her own admission, she was simply reciting the rules of a sect. Since the consequences of that preaching were something she could see every day, I say her morality was crap.

And yes, I do think the Church's birth control position is insane. I'll also note that Catholics (at least in this country) use birth control as much as non-Catholics do, and good for them.

Peter Leavitt writes: "My guess is that the recent spate of anti-religious books comes from a certain despair that radical secularism is being slowly but surely moved aside by a resurgence of serious religion. How else explain the influence people like John Paul II and Teresa, or even Neuhaus in the U.S."

MT has no influence to speak of, and not one in a hundred Americans has heard of Neuhaus, I'd guess. Your speculation is the wishful thinking of a True Believer.

JPII was a very influential man until the fall of the Iron Curtain. But he lost much of that influence when the Pedophile Curtain in his own Church was discovered, and he's dead now. His successor is about as influential as Jeffrey Dahmer and not much more pleasant.

ML&J: JPII was a very influential man until the fall of the Iron Curtain. But he lost much of that influence when the Pedophile Curtain in his own Church was discovered, and he's dead now.

John Paul II, along with Reagan, Thatcher, and Gorbachev was among the primary leaders that caused the fall of the Soviet Union. Read George Weigel on this.

While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it, the Catholic Church has dealt seriously with the issue and in the long run the Church, which deals in terms of centuries and millennia, will be little affected by this matter.

Meanwhile, the radical secularists whistle past the graveyard.

And yes, I do think the Church's birth control position is insane.

Insane, huh? Pretty strong words for a guy who evidently spends hours a day commenting on blog posts under a strange pseudonym.

Dilan,

This line of argumentation that only people of faith are "imposing" their beliefs (in one direction) on others gets old. One of the most well known of the Catholic Social Teachings is the one that states we should have a preferential option for the poor and vulnerable. Many Catholics of good will think this should apply in the U.S. by supporting higher minimum wage laws, supporting a progressive tax code to have the rich fund social programs, and having universal health care. Would this constitute an imposing of one's faith on agnostic libertarians?

Pope John Paul II once said that the use of the death penalty should be rare if not practically non-existent. If Catholics of good will seek to follow this teaching by outlawing the death penalty, are they imposing their beliefs on people who think the death penalty is necessary and clearly outlined in the Constitution?

There is a lot more to be said, particularly with respect to the idea that secularists are in no way seeking to impose their own beliefs on others (see Roe vs. Wade), but it's getting late.

Re: Refusing to fund [embryo destructive] stem cell research is imposing.

All laws are a form of "imposing". Telling me I can only drive 70 mph on I-75 up to St Pete next weekend when I'd rather do 80 mph imposes someone's conception of safety on me. Does that make it illegitimate?

Re: How else explain the influence people like John Paul II and Teresa, or even Neuhaus in the U.S.

JP II and Mother Teresa, well maybe, But Fr Neuhaus has disgraced himself by becoming nothing more than a partisan hack and a shill for the Bush administration. His once-interesting magazine, First Things, is now little more than a GOP manifesto with theology attached. The most recent issue, for example, contained a knee-jerk, stale-shibbleth-touting Global Warming denialist article, with no relevance whatsoever to the question of religion and public life, the magazine's supposed topic. Who paid for that I wonder-- Exxon and Karl Rove? And what next-- a screed denouncing the idea of taxing hedge fund managers' salaries as normal income?

Re: While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it

Those priests were not "gay": they were disturbed and troubled pederasts. Sure, most gay men will admnire a good looking 18 year old (just as staright men are turned on by a curvaceous 18 year old woman) but going after 13 year olds is not acceptable or wlecome in even the mosy louche corners of the gay world.

Mark:

Even if we assume arguendo the (totally silly) claim that a blastocyst is entitled to the same rights as a human person, yes, your tax dollars should fund it for the same reason that I can't stop my tax dollars from funding the Iraq War or the death penalty. Tax dollars are used to fund killing all the time, because the public's representatives voted for it.

And just because you believe that it is killing doesn't really answer my point, which is that religious believers who have doubts about doctrine (but no doubts about experiencing God) shouldn't put my life in jeopardy by denying me access to embryonic stem cell treatments should I need them.

Mark Adams says: "And by the way Moe, you should be happy to know that you really are as clever and funny as you think."

Oh, Christ, I know that.

While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it, the Catholic Church has dealt seriously with the issue and in the long run the Church, which deals in terms of centuries and millennia, will be little affected by this matter.

It's really convenient for conservatives to blame gays for the pedophile situation in the Catholic Church.

First, gays didn't cover it up or reassign those priests rather than going to the police. The Catholic hierarchy-- which had been basically remade in the image of the right wing John Paul II-- covered it up and reassigned those priests. And they did so because their own power was more important to them than the welfare of those children.

Second, lots of priests who identify as "straights" molested children too. Pedophilia and homosexuality are two very different things, despite conservatives' affinity for conflating them.

Third, the reason the Catholic Church had so much power to avoid official investigation of these acts for so long was because conservatives made alliances with the Church over abortion and other social issues.

Fourth, the reason the priesthood attracted a lot of people with sexual deviancies is because of the rules on celibacy and the Catholic Church's obsession with sexual "sin" (which, of course, is not actual sin at all but just private activities the Church disagrees with). Thus, many of these problem priests entered the priesthood with the encouragement of conservatives who thought that priestly celibacy was a good way to contain those sorts of urges.

There are many other Christian denominations that don't have the obsession with sexual sin and don't have the rules that ministers must remain celibate. Unsurprisingly, they also don't have the problems with sexual molestation that the Catholic Church did.

It is conservatives, not gays, who are at fault in the sex abuse scandal. Only when conservative Catholics stop endorsing bigoted homophobia and change THEIR ways will this problem really abate.

Peter Leavitt quotes and replies: "ML&J: JPII was a very influential man until the fall of the Iron Curtain. But he lost much of that influence when the Pedophile Curtain in his own Church was discovered, and he's dead now.

John Paul II, along with Reagan, Thatcher, and Gorbachev was among the primary leaders that caused the fall of the Soviet Union. Read George Weigel on this.

While the problem of "gay" priests, mainly due to the curse of the Sexual "Revolution" of the late sixties and seventies seriously marred it, the Catholic Church has dealt seriously with the issue and in the long run the Church, which deals in terms of centuries and millennia, will be little affected by this matter.

Meanwhile, the radical secularists whistle past the graveyard. "

Thatcher had very little to do with the fall of the Soviet Union, and Reagan had no more to do with it than any of the other US presidents from Truman on did. Brezhnev had more to do with it than any of them.

And while I do credit JPII with moral leadership in that event, I give Lech Walesa far more credit. So should you. But I know you're a hardcore movement conservative and you folks have your articles of faith as much as any al Qaeda member does.

Your Church had issues with sexual misbehavior long before the "Sexual Revolution" and had gay priests throughout its history, of course. Your equation of "gay" with "pedophile" is rather disgusting but is also typical of your type.

When your Church was encouraging the castration of choir boys 150 years ago it was just another sort of molestation. Eventually scandal and public disgust ended that practice, and those factors (as well as lawsuits) were the only thing that ended (we can hope) the Pedophile Curtain. Your Church only dealy seriously with the issue when decent outsiders hit it in the wallet. Left to its own devices it would have continued aiding and abetting child-rapers.

And please don't tell me they didn't know they had a problem, or that it was confined to America post-"Sexual Revolution." The problem in Ireland was just as severe. The only good side to it is that the scandal there broke the back of the insanely strict and powerful Irish Church.

This line of argumentation that only people of faith are "imposing" their beliefs (in one direction) on others gets old. One of the most well known of the Catholic Social Teachings is the one that states we should have a preferential option for the poor and vulnerable. Many Catholics of good will think this should apply in the U.S. by supporting higher minimum wage laws, supporting a progressive tax code to have the rich fund social programs, and having universal health care. Would this constitute an imposing of one's faith on agnostic libertarians?

Pope John Paul II once said that the use of the death penalty should be rare if not practically non-existent. If Catholics of good will seek to follow this teaching by outlawing the death penalty, are they imposing their beliefs on people who think the death penalty is necessary and clearly outlined in the Constitution?

"Raise the minimum wage because it will increase the wages of working class Americans without increasing unemployment" is not imposing faith on secular Americans. "Raise the minimum wage because it is consistent with the wishes of God" is.

And you are still missing my more general point, which is that if you have no doubts about doctrine, as well as no doubts about experience (i.e., a fundamentalist), then that may be one thing, but people who have DOUBTS about doctrine and are only sure about their experience have no business trying to nonetheless force that doctrine on everyone else.

John writes: "And yes, I do think the Church's birth control position is insane.

Insane, huh? Pretty strong words for a guy who evidently spends hours a day commenting on blog posts under a strange pseudonym."

"Insane" is only one word, and I suppose your parents neglected to give you a last name - or are you The Poster Formally Known As John?

And I guess you spent hours monitoring my posts. That's quite a compliment, but this complaint of yours marks you as a nitwit.

All laws are a form of "imposing". Telling me I can only drive 70 mph on I-75 up to St Pete next weekend when I'd rather do 80 mph imposes someone's conception of safety on me. Does that make it illegitimate?

No, because that conception of safety is backed by empirical data. On the other hand, telling you that you will go to jail if you speed because a supernatural being that you don't believe exists said that you can't speed IS illegitimate.

And more to the point, people who insist on imposing that conception despite the fact that they themselves have doubts as to whether it is really required are way out of bounds.

I can't stop my tax dollars from funding the Iraq War or the death penalty.

So does that mean opponents of those things should stop lobbying the government to end them without being accused of trying to impose their ideology?

Tax dollars are used to fund killing all the time, because the public's representatives voted for it.

Right, and thus far the public's representatives at the national level have been unable to get federal funding for embryo destructive research made into law.

As for your point, I wasn't trying to address it.

So do you get paid by the post? Or just a flat salary?

Mark Adams writes: "Right, and thus far the public's representatives at the national level have been unable to get federal funding for embryo destructive research made into law."

Right, because a Christianist wackaloon named George Bush vetoed the legislation. Don't worry though, he'll be gone soon.

So if you want to donate any frozen embryos to the public good, just hold on until January 21st, 2009. That's when America will rejoin the 21st century.

Of course you can try to remain in the 15th.

Don't worry though, he'll be gone soon

Phew! I was worried Moe. Thanks.

Of course you can try to remain in the 15th.

Of course.

Re: religious believers who have doubts about doctrine (but no doubts about experiencing God) shouldn't put my life in jeopardy by denying me access to embryonic stem cell treatments should I need them.

Let's not jump into the realm of science fiction. There are no "embryonic stem cell" tretaments, just as there is no faster-than-light starship drive.

Re: When your Church was encouraging the castration of choir boys 150 years ago

The Church did not do this. It was a weird fashion thing, nothing to do with sex (the desire to keep a boyish tenor voice). Youthful opera singers who wished to keep their higher pitched child voices did this too.

Re: No, because that conception of safety is backed by empirical data.

So what? It's still an imposition of someone else's will. And that same empirical data would show that if we lowered the speed limit on the interstates to 25mpg there were be even fewer fatalities-- a lot fewer in fact. So again, we are coming to back to a collective value judgment: we will accept the level of fatalities we get at 70 mph, but not at 80 mph (and also begged here is the qustsion of why people who can drive safely at 80 mph should not be allowed to do so-- why must one size fit all here?) All law is a matter of imposing a collective judgment on the individual; you can't wiggle out of that fact. If you want to fight the Religious right I'll be happy to help on most issues, but don't do so on the basis that, because they are religious, their opinions are somehow worthless and they have no place in the debate. No, fight them because they are wrong, not because they are not fellow citizens with the same rights to make their voices heard as you and I.

Dear Moe and Bobcat,

Just to clarify a couple of things, natural family planning actually does work, when practiced correctly, as well as any other form of contraception. Women in Poland currently rely primarily on natural family planning (as I recall, over 60% use NFP exclusively), and Poland has a fertility rate well below the replacement level.

I don't think the Catholic Church position on artificial birth control is that it discourages 'temperance' or encourages premarital sex or anything like that- those would in fact be consequentialist arguments, vulnerable to the same flaws of all consequentialist arguments, as well as to the fact that the premise is false (African countries where birth control is not widely used are far more promiscuous than, say, Scandinavian countries). Rather, the argument is that any interference with the procreative aspect of the sex act is against nature. As a non-Catholic, I disagree with that position, and I think the Church is wrong on this, but let's not try to distort their position into something it isn't. (I also won't deny that I do find something admirable in the willingness of the Church to stick to their guns.)

As an aside, I don't think the Catholic position on birth control is particularly relevant to the problems of family planning in the 3rd world. I spent three years as a Peace Corps volunteer in an African country, and among many other things, sometimes held presentations about family planning (including natural family planning). I worked with plenty of Catholics who were sometimes not even aware of the Church's position, and among the reasons that people gave for not using birth control, I never heard anything about it being immoral, or against their religion. My impression is that while the Church in the Third World is opposed to birth control on paper, it doesn't devote particularly a lot of energy to condemning it, nor does it particularly try to enforce its viewpoint. (It does, of course, try to further its opinion on the abortion question, as well it should). In the Catholic countries of Central and South America (as well as European Catholic countries like Poland, Ireland, etc.) birth control is very widely practiced. The one religion that does seem to be correlated with higher birth rates in today's world is Islam, not Catholicism.

Dear Moe and Bobcat,

Just to clarify a couple of things, natural family planning actually does work, when practiced correctly, as well as any other form of contraception. Women in Poland currently rely primarily on natural family planning (as I recall, over 60% use NFP exclusively), and Poland has a fertility rate well below the replacement level.

I don't think the Catholic Church position on artificial birth control is that it discourages 'temperance' or encourages premarital sex or anything like that- those would in fact be consequentialist arguments, vulnerable to the same flaws of all consequentialist arguments, as well as to the fact that the premise is false (African countries where birth control is not widely used are far more promiscuous than, say, Scandinavian countries). Rather, the argument is that any interference with the procreative aspect of the sex act is against nature. As a non-Catholic, I disagree with that position, and I think the Church is wrong on this, but let's not try to distort their position into something it isn't. (I also won't deny that I do find something admirable in the willingness of the Church to stick to their guns.)

As an aside, I don't think the Catholic position on birth control is particularly relevant to the problems of family planning in the 3rd world. I spent three years as a Peace Corps volunteer in an African country, and among many other things, sometimes held presentations about family planning (including natural family planning). I worked with plenty of Catholics who were sometimes not even aware of the Church's position, and among the reasons that people gave for not using birth control, I never heard anything about it being immoral, or against their religion. My impression is that while the Church in the Third World is opposed to birth control on paper, it doesn't devote particularly a lot of energy to condemning it, nor does it particularly try to enforce its viewpoint. (It does, of course, try to further its opinion on the abortion question, as well it should). In the Catholic countries of Central and South America (as well as European Catholic countries like Poland, Ireland, etc.) birth control is very widely practiced. The one religion that does seem to be correlated with higher birth rates in today's world is Islam, not Catholicism.

Sullivan, upon reading Mother Theresa's remarks, was impressed with how much she is like him, and helpfully pointed this out in a post to his blog:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/08/faith-in-doubt-.html

JonF quotes and writes: "When your Church was encouraging the castration of choir boys 150 years ago

The Church did not do this. It was a weird fashion thing, nothing to do with sex (the desire to keep a boyish tenor voice). Youthful opera singers who wished to keep their higher pitched child voices did this too."

Nonsense. The Church encouraged it by using the boys (called "the castrati") in choirs. Kids didn't volunteer for the procedure, either. And you can claim it had nothing to do with sex, but I would say that the desire to be surrounded by perpetual soprano eunuchs is a weird intersection of the abuse of power and twisted sexuality which was long present in the Church hierarchy.

It's not an accident that the Church became THE pedophile haven. The cult of celibacy, the secrecy, the emphasis on obedience and submission, the whole weird "altar boy" business - I mean, come on. It's like some weird pornographic prison movie.

Hector writes: "My impression is that while the Church in the Third World is opposed to birth control on paper, it doesn't devote particularly a lot of energy to condemning it, nor does it particularly try to enforce its viewpoint. (It does, of course, try to further its opinion on the abortion question, as well it should). In the Catholic countries of Central and South America (as well as European Catholic countries like Poland, Ireland, etc.) birth control is very widely practiced."

That's true, but it's also a relatively new phenomenon. In Ireland, for instance, condoms were illegal until 1979, and it was years after that before you could get them without a prescription. Now what institution do you suppose was responsible for that bit of stupidity?

Hint: It wasn't the IRA.

Point of clarification:

The Church did not commission eunuch choirboys, the boys' parents mutilated them and then gave them to the Church. Castration was an even more widespread practice in non-Catholic places such as the Arab world, India and China. The Church did sin passively by providing a market, true enough, but it never actively requested or even endorsed the practice of castration. On the contrary, castration was illegal under the laws of both the Catholic and Orthodox churches, for which reason parents of these poor boys had to make up fictions that the boy had been bitten by a pig or a dog.

I personally find the cult of celibacy, the emphasis on submission, etc. quite beautiful and admirable, even though I'm not a Catholic. The fact that these things are vulnerable to perversion does not detract from their value. Evil is the corruption of good, and great evils come from the corruptions of great goods. I would also argue that a good part of the reason we have so much child molestation in America is the fact that as a society we are too lenient in our punishment of the offenders.

If experimenting on human beings and cannibalizing the tissue of embryos is the hallmark of civilization/modernity, then I would hate to see what you consider barbaric.

Condoms are not the only means of birth control, nor are they a particularly good one. Many people would accept the morality of chemical birth control (i.e. the Pill) but not condoms (this was the dissident Catholic position that Pope Paul VI ruled against in the late 1960s). The relevant question is when was the Pill legalized in Ireland.

In any case, Ireland has had a very low rate of population growth for a long time, so whatever the official position of the Irish government on birth control, it wasn't exactly having a very great effect.

Since you bring up the IRA, I should point out that sexual puritanism is not just a feature of religious conservatives, but also of most left-wing radical movements (not U.S. liberals, but the socialist/communist movements on the actual far left). See Hobsbawm's essay 'revolution and sex' for more details. Is the fact that idealistic movements on both the religious right and the revolutionary left have seen the necessity to restrain the sex instinct, trying to tell us something?

Re: The Church encouraged it by using the boys (called "the castrati") in choirs.

My point was that this was NOT a moral or religious thing at all. No one suggested that eunuchs were more likely to go to Heaven. It was a fashion craze, one that affected the secular world too as my example of the castration of opera singers shows.

Re: On the contrary, castration was illegal under the laws of both the Catholic and Orthodox churches

"Illegal" is too strong a word here. However, canon law did not permit eunuchs to be ordained as priests.

Re: I personally find the cult of celibacy, the emphasis on submission, etc. quite beautiful and admirable

For those who wish to renounce the world for spiritual reasons, I would agree. Hence the celibacy of monks and nuns (and in the Buddhist tradition too). But priests do not renoucne the world: their role is to serve the world and so I think the Eastern Churches have it right by permitting married priests.

So I guess there's some strange coalition between conservatives and libertarians arguing that religious impositions are just as acceptable/unacceptable as all other legal impositions, either because they want more faith-based impositions or fewer impositions generally.

People of faith could get the raw end of this new bargain, as they currently benefit greatly from this distinction. Religious reasons can be cited to exempt you from numerous taxation and other regulations. The idea that religious motivations are distinct from secular motivations and should therefore be more free from interference and even accommodated is deeply embedded in our ethics, frequently to the benefit of the religious. Thus, laws with a purely secular purpose like zoning limits can be waived if they block your faith in way that they can't be waived if they block my secular whims.

The flipside of this special autonomy given to religious claims is that everyone else has it too--I can't stop you from following your religion, but you can't stop anyone else--or make them follow yours. Religious impositions are just a special kind of thing.

The irony is that it's now atheists who defending this idea, because why would an atheist think that the religious sphere of ideas should be in any way special? The special freedom of and from religion makes sense only in terms of it's sacredness.

But to the religious, or at least to Christians, it's perfectly obvious why coercion is more unacceptable in religious matters than secular ones.

Hector writes: "The Church did not commission eunuch choirboys, the boys' parents mutilated them and then gave them to the Church. Castration was an even more widespread practice in non-Catholic places such as the Arab world, India and China. The Church did sin passively by providing a market, true enough, but it never actively requested or even endorsed the practice of castration. "

Ah, yes - "passive sinning." The Church is very good at that. It was also a major factor in the Pedophile Curtain scandal.

They weren't officially endorsing child rape. They were just "passively" aiding and abetting it.

Hector replies: "Condoms are not the only means of birth control, nor are they a particularly good one. Many people would accept the morality of chemical birth control (i.e. the Pill) but not condoms (this was the dissident Catholic position that Pope Paul VI ruled against in the late 1960s). The relevant question is when was the Pill legalized in Ireland.

In any case, Ireland has had a very low rate of population growth for a long time, so whatever the official position of the Irish government on birth control, it wasn't exactly having a very great effect. "

Hector, this is simply stupid. The rate of population growth in Ireland was low because of the incredible amount of immigration which was taking place. Anyone with any knowledge of Irish history is well aware of that factor.

As for the Pill in Ireland, it would have taken you about 2 minutes to look the relevant history up instead of dumping a silly uninformed reply on me. Here, educate yourself:

http://goireland.about.com/od/preparingyourtrip/qt/contraception.htm

Jonf quotes and writes: "I personally find the cult of celibacy, the emphasis on submission, etc. quite beautiful and admirable

For those who wish to renounce the world for spiritual reasons, I would agree. Hence the celibacy of monks and nuns (and in the Buddhist tradition too). But priests do not renoucne the world: their role is to serve the world and so I think the Eastern Churches have it right by permitting married priests."

The Catholic Church actually permits married priests, also - when they're married Anglican priests who convert to Catholicism.

In actual practice, about half of all Catholic priests stray from the rule of celibacy - and those are the ones who admit it. I suspect the figure is much higher.

MoeLarryandJesus may have replaced "Jupiter" (who used to post semi-coherent racist rants at Steve Salier's site until Steve finally had enough and imposed comment moderation) as the worst commenter I have ever encountered.

The silence of Douthat.

Let's not jump into the realm of science fiction. There are no "embryonic stem cell" tretaments, just as there is no faster-than-light starship drive.

That's really not the point. Religious zealots oppose finding out whether there ARE such treatments. In other words, if it's between my life and the life of an unthinking, unsentient blastocyst, they would kill me and save the blastocyst. That is what is known as having deeply unserious moral beliefs.