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What's The Matter With Scientology? (II)

06 Aug 2007 04:30 pm

Mark Oppenheimer, responding to my comments on his piece on Scientology:

Obviously, it's true that much of what makes us uncomfortable about Scientology is unique to Scientology. I think I was pretty clear about Scientology's unique oddness, its propensity for authoritarianism, etc. In fact, I linked to the exhaustive Rolling Stone piece that is if anything far more damning of Scientology than the Time piece you linked to (and I said I find it generally persuasive). So obviously I was making a circumscribed point, one which I think holds: Scientology is weird, but so too is religion weird, and we shouldn't sit there in Mass or Shabbat services and be so smug.

I do think Scientology has ruined lives. I think many, perhaps most of the horror stories, that we read are true. But if Scientology has 8 or 10 million members -- and I think that's a big exaggeration they make, so let's say 1 million committed members -- than even several hundred of these stories, however lurid and true, wouldn't make Scientology worse (by our admittedly fictional, utilitarian/consequentialist calculus) than other faiths. I know people whose lives were destroyed by Opus Dei -- indeed, I know people whose lives were destroyed by the massive church coverup of pederasty. I know people destroyed by the evangelical subculture, by the mainstream Mormon culture, by Judaism.

Here's the higher-order point: we shouldn't think about religions in terms of their worst excesses (take that, Mr. Hitchens).

We might, however, ask if there is something/systemically/ corrupt about certain religions. That's the implicit charge against Scientology: that something in its nature makes it inherently cult-like or authoritarian (more so than, say, Catholicism or Islam or Orthodox Judaism, all of which can be quite authoritarian in their ways). And I just don't think, based on my reporting, that the answer is obviously “yes.” I think power corrupts, so the leaders are going to be more corrupt than the laity. I think zealotry is bad, so you'll find more excesses among the “Sea Org” than among the more everyday Scientologists. But the point is that there /are/everyday Scientologists -- I've met dozens of them -- who aren't rejecting their families, aren't turning over all their money (or even much of it) to the Church. The point is that one can be a casual, or occasional, Scientologist. And that's what gets lost in most of the reporting on the subject.

I take the last point, but it doesn’t seem to me that the existence of “casual, or occasional” Scientologists exonerates the Church from the charge that it’s more inherently dangerous than, say, Lutheranism. (Full disclosure: I have a relative who is a Scientologist; we’re not terribly close, but so far as I can tell he fits the “everyday Scientologist” category that Oppenheimer identifies – he hasn’t rejected his family, turned over all his money, etc. etc.) Nor do I think that most people find Scientology suspicious primarily because its beliefs seem wackier than the doctrines of many mainstream faiths. Yes, people mock the weird teachings – the aliens, the volcano, the intergalactic civilizations, and so forth – that L. Ron Hubbard's Church allegedly reveals to its initiates. But what's most troubling about Scientology is precisely what Oppenheimer identifies as the crux of the matter: Namely, that it seems deliberately designed to be "cult-like or authoritarian," and that the horror stories he mentions, which range from brainwashing to fraud to worse, may represent not an excess but a fulfillment of what Hubbard had in mind when he founded the religion in the first place.

Obviously, every faith that lasts long enough produces institutional abuses (and worse); the question is whether one can have the religion without the abuses, and the more that the answer seems to be no, the more it seems reasonable to treat that faith as inherently rather than incidentally dangerous. This is why there’s so much debate about whether Mohammed was teaching bin Laden-style jihad right from the beginning, since the answer goes to the heart of how we think about Islam today. Or again, if there were evidence that Jesus of Nazareth had intended to found a religion dedicated to enabling and covering up the sexual abuse of children, then the Catholic sex abuse scandals would be cast in a very different light.

And in the case of L. Ron Hubbard's cash cow of a Church, I've read and heard and seen enough to give me a strong sense that the inherently-dangerous side has the better of the argument, and that a Scientology purged of its "worst excesses" wouldn't be Scientology at all.

Comments (48)

Yes, but the stated views of a religion's founder are only one factor—not always the largest one—in whether a faith is "inherently" dangerous. (I think "inherently" needs to be in scare quotes, because all we're really talking about are aspects of a religion that seem unlikely to change, usually because they're at the core of the religion's self-conception.)

So yeah, obviously Jesus wasn't in favor of molesting kids, but the question remains whether core aspects of the Catholic Church as an institution do present "inherent" dangers. For example, as to the sexual abuse scandal, one might point to the Church's strong hierarchy, its self-conception as an institution that is in many ways above the legitimate reach of civil governments, its (complicated) view of various forms of sex and sexual attraction, etc. Of course if you're a Catholic there's so much weighing on the positive side of the balance scale that you're clearly going to conclude that it's a good institution on balance -- after all, it's the institutional mediator between God and the world. But for those of us who aren't, it's not hard to make the case that the Catholic church does a bunch of things that are generally bad for people's lives, and indeed, that it's "deliberately designed to be ... authoritarian." (It's less so in practice primarily because so many Catholics reject the strong claims to authority that the Church itself makes.)

(You could make the same case about lots of other religions, of course. I only pick on Catholicism because I know it best and it came up here.)

I fear not your e-meters, Thetans. Your unwillingness to obey my mortal enemy--Tom Cruise--will be your undoing. Obey me! Obey me!!

Dark Lord Xenu

Ross, what a finely constructed argument for the inherent dangers of this bizarre cash-driven organization. The fact that Scientology started out as "Dianetics: The modern SCIENCE of mental health" and quickly morphed into a religion once the FDA came sniffing around the e-meters should be red flag number one. A quick trip to any org or mission to experience an "Oxford Capacity Test" should peg the BS meter of any reasonable person. As an Dawkins 6 agnostic, I find all religion nutty. However, those with their origins in earlier epochs at least have the aura of having been somewhat original at some point in history. Hubbard's hodgepodge of Freud, Jung, Buddhism and Space Opera is so unoriginal, poorly written and transparently lame, it beggars the imagination that there it had such a huge following in its heyday.

Of a criticsm, one should always ask if it is true. In the situation of persistant critics, one should ask what their motivation is. When a critic runs a large critical website for a long time, one should ask their source of funding to understand their motivation. Because many people say things like, "Scientology has been helpful for me" and get on with living, while a handful of persistent critics scream to the heavens with little apparent cause.

Your body thetans are overwhelming you. Have you considered an audit?

The motivations of the founder of a movement are of prime importance to the understanding of that movement.

Terryeo puts forth that "When a critic runs a large critical website for a long time, one should ask their source of funding to understand their motivation." Do you have any facts that you'd like to share on this, Terryeo?

Truth is, more people depart scientology than remain scientology; their dissatisfaction provides motivation to refute the lies that scientology repeats without compunction. I left scientology after embracing it for several decades.

At various times I would have agreed that scientology was helpful, but ultimately it is a mindset created by L. Ron Hubbard and cannot withstand critical analysis. Better never to get into scientology than to carry it around with you after you leave, in my experience.

My YouTube page exposes the scientology intention to "Salvage a Planet", and is an expression of my personal dissatisfaction. Others that maintain critical websites do so for the welfare of indviduals that may otherwise be lured into a relationship with scientology, one that cannot end well.

Speaking of relationships with Scientology, I have been in Scientology for over 10 years and it has helped me greatly.

I am much happier by knowing what I learned in my Scientology classes and by participating in Scientology's social rehab activities, such as promoting human rights and helping people get off drugs.

I am happy to recommend it to others. See for yourself what it is (by reading a book or doing a basic course_, and decide whether it works for you or not.

Alex

That's just the point, Alex. You've been in for over ten years, so far so good. But sooner or later, you may hit the wall as I did. What if it takes you thirty years to look back and say, what was I thinking?

I am happy to recommend to others that they not try it. Why run the risk that you'll need to recover from a bad experience with scientology, based on the recommendation of Alex (who has been in scientology less than half as long as me)?

Scientology has nothing to lose and something to gain with their standard promotional line "See for yourself what it is (by reading a book or doing a basic course), and decide whether it works for you or not." Why not see for yourself what's at the other end of scientology by watching my 'Salvage a Planet' series on YouTube, Alex?

You guys, hows nuts is it how the Scientologists find these posts so fast? I gare-ohn-tee that there are vast minions of actor wannabes in french sailor uniforms running google searches on iMacs in a basement on Franklin Blvd. Alex, you are in a cult, dude. GET OUT!!!!!!!

Aaron, back in the old days (pre-internet) scientology used a clipping service to provide them with every article that referenced scientology, dianetics or hubbard.

These days, all it takes is setting up a google alert to find these articles for you, no minions required. Plus, scientology prefers the minions not surf the web.

Just in the last three months, Scientology has purchased eight major buildings -- just this week, two in Harlem, NY. Last month, a 15 story building in Philadelphia. An 83,000 sq foot building in St Paul, MN.

Scientology distributed 100,000 copies of the BBC Exposed DVD that was sent to everyone of importance in England -- result, now the BBC is in the news being looked at carefully for its unethical reporting practices.

Scientology not only is growing faster, but also its influence is increasing as more people look for themselves.

Reporters are now writing articles that basically say, "Hey, enough is enough. Every religion has its oddities when viewed by someone of another religion."

Catholics and most Christian denominations damn to hell those who aren't "true believers." So? Who cares? Certainly not Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduim and members of more than 2,000 other faiths.

Amusing. We're here, more than half a century. No other religion in history has had such growth and such impact on world affairs. We've just started.

Hold on to your hats, guys. This is going to be one hell of a ride!

Aaron,

Some people just happen to have interests outside their own religion. I'm a Mormon. But I also like following politics. That's why I follow this blog - for the political talk.

It just so happens that when someone here happens to mention Mormonism, I have something to say.

Believe me, I'm not vigilantly Google-ing "Mormon" every day to find what some marginal, say... Italian Cooking blogger somewhere is saying about Mormonism and then descending swiftly and without mercy to defend the faith upon an unsuspecting audience of cooking enthusiasts.

Point being, I doubt there's some monolithic conspiracy out there to "police" the bloggosphere for wrongdoing. Just people with varied interests speaking on what they know.

I've been a Scientologist for 38 years. I don't give a rats a** about sniping critics because I have a personal reality of the workability of Scientology. I have been a successful executive, happily married for nearly 30 years, and my kids are ethical and happy kids that never took drugs and have a successful lives. In the main, the great majority of critics have never actually read Hubbard's books (Dianetics, New Slant on Life) or they've read some and never really understood his absolute love of mankind and intention to help. Scientology is essentially a blueprint for life, and Hubbard says time and again that you should accept or reject it based on your own determinism. If someone within the Church mis-applied what he said, that's another story.

There is no doubt that the calculations done by M. Oppenheimer were wrong to start with. Scientology has an extremely bad reputation, not because of its insane sci-fi story regarding Xenu or the Wall of Fire, but because it charghes giant sums for what it calls "religious" services, in fact mere pseudo-psychology sessions; it has promised cure of at least 80 % of illnesses, including mental ones, but has never delivered such cures; it has always lied about its true motivations, which are clearly power and money; it has been defending its lies with more lies and with violent attacks toward its own staffs and clients and opponents (known as Fair Game), and the result is evident: Scientology has lost and is losing its clientele and its potential clientele. One can estimate that less than 2 % of those clients having ever paid a "services" have left the cult.
Such a rate of failures shows the true image of the cult.(I was a founder and patron of a french profit center long ago).

On the first point, yes, considering Surah 5 & 9, and the campaigns to 'assimilate' Yathrib (Medina)
and Khaybar. A more charitable view would be that
proposed in Herbert's Dune; a parable of Mohamed blended with part T.E. Lawrence with a concurrent
analogy about oil; substituted for Spice, from the
Worm, not unlike Oil from the Dinosaur. Secondly, no, third how is it people who scoff at any monothesistic faith would adopt Scientology.

James, Steve:

Anyone who would disagree with scientology must perforce be wrong, because scientology is the only effective and ethical group on the planet, right?

I have looked deeper down the throat of scientology than either of you, and I have seen what scientology coughs up.

Hubbard had goals; those goals have nothing to do with helping mankind. But there's probably nothing that I can say that will dissuade you, so you're just going to have to figure it out for yourselves, like I did.

Oppenheimer should also take note that not only Scientology has ruined the life of members, but also has and is still working hard to ruin the life of those who chose to expose in one way or another the harmful doctrines of Scientology, and those who gives a voice to those former members whose life has been ruined.

Also Oppenheimer should take note that the current leader of Scientology is actually promoting deadly violence toward other citizens because they are doctrinally tagged as evil by Scientology.

Alex and Steve, I am not impressed that you haven't messed up your lives and credit that to Scientology. I haven't messed up mine either. But you are supposed to be to me, what I am to a psychotic. You are supposed to have perfect memories. You are supposed to not need glasses. You are supposed to have had your IQ's raised one point per hour of auditing. AND THAT IS JUST THROUGH DIANETICS! Read Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, and note L.Ron's claims. How many of them have you actually been witness to? Do you know anyone who has control knowingly and at will over matter, energy, space, time, life and thought? I used to know two but they both died in car accidents. Look at his claims and look at what you receive. They are quite different. A happy life and happy children are not what is offered in the books. People like you do what I was once told to do, which is not let people in on what really goes on until they are ready for it. We called it "truth in gradients", "shore stories" and "acceptable lies". We were the only church in town that had as part of it's sacred scripture a course that taught how to lie. It was called TR-L (training routine lie). If you haven't done it yet ask around. If no one will tell you about it without first making payment, check it out on the internet.

James, you are past the point of no return. You are what people call brainwashed. Sorry. It is hard to come to any other conclusion.

Why doesn't some Scientologist come on here and say, "I have a perfect memory. I can control nature. My sould goes to other planets and I can tell you exactly what is on Mars and it will be corroberated by the lander. I'll take the James Randi test on these things and prove it." That's all it would take. Debate would be over. Everyone would join Scientology.

Actually, the truth is there is a campaign that has been hatched that targets lichen. Unwittingly, brainwashed parents are helping by purchasing children kites for "summer fun."

Underlying this secret plot is a very special dye that is being added to the air from secret containers hidden in school children kites.

"The plan," a highly place source reports, "is to have lichen above latitude 095 degrees to turn lavendar."

"This," the official who has been operating undercover for decades, "will result in more than 65 percent of all oxygen breathers to die."

"Millions of properties will become vacant. Vacancies will plummet property value and the survivors (those who know the SECRET breathing techniques (hint: breathe on a 3-2-5 cadence from unmarked paper bags with the "hidden light" logo) will survive and be able to (finally) afford condos in Maui and Beverly Hills.

You see, the truth has finally come out! Pass the word!

Guys, there's no point in arguing with Scientologists. They've bought the lies. They believe them. They believe you are evil because you don't. They have to snap out of it and find a way out on their own.

I hope the people that say they've found success with Scientology are being genuine, but from my experiences with ex-cult members, this is probably not the case. If it is, good for them. If not, Scientologists - please know that if you ever decide to undertake the very difficult journey of leaving the "church" and claiming your life back, there are people out here who will help you, offer you support, and not judge you for falling for the ruse. All of my best wishes for your true happiness.

Scientology seems weird to me, but he's right-- all religions, or most, are going to look weird when examined. That's why I'm so amused when some fundamentalist or Catholic (disclosure-- I was raised Catholic) turns up the nose at Mitt Romney's Mormonism: "Do you know they (insert some weird practice)?" Well, yeah, but Catholics believe that the host is the actual for-real body of Christ, and fundamentalists believe that God causes good things to happen to them specifically and can and will cure corns on your toes.

It's all nuts. Some religions are currently more dangerous to practitioners than others, but most have been dangerous in their day, and Christianity is one (of many) that has been dangerous to everyone else too. (But Christianity, and many other religions, also inspired great art and music, which does go far to balance the scales. Maybe that's why scientology recruits actors, though Tom Cruise doesn't really compare to, say, the Cologne cathedral.)

James, that last comment is the most sensible you have ever been. Either that or say to yourself, "Non-confront! Flunk!" Do they still talk like that down at the cult offices?

If you really want to know about what lies at the heart of the man behind scientology, check out the 'must see' music video by PINK MUNKY directed by Karl-Rainier Blumenthal featuring L. Ron Hubbard in his own voice making fun of "neegrows" and the culture of blacks; about how 'they talk to their hats'; among other racist and bigoted statements;

Pink Munky: "What's the matter with you, Hat?" Music Video
A great song put together by Pink Munky with some help from the wise old sage, L. Ron Hubbard. This video was produced right around the one-year anniversary of "The Friend of Mankind," which shares some of the footage you see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJ7f1JUvMM

I would argue that its not about meauring the religiosity of Scientology or comparing it to any other church; to me, the whole religion/church angle was pasted on top of the organization after, as another poster points out, the FDA started sniffing around e-meters, Cal-Mag and other Scn, Inc. products.

The whole 'religion' argument is a distraction, because Scientology changes whether it is a religion or an 'applied religious philosophy' or not a religion [Hubbard even said it wasn't], as is convenient. (It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax!)

To me, the issue is the policy-driven abuses of people and the law. Hubbard wrote Policy Letters and Bulletins about just about every imaginable course of action. He clearly outlines how to 'handle' criticism, and it's all about character assassination and nothing about being accountable and taking responsibility for the pressures and actions imposed by the organization on individuals and communities.

There is no informed consent. What other "religion" has an army of barratrous attorneys and dirty-tricks department, and doesn't even let you know its cosmology until you've paid enough in 'fixed donations' to deserve to hear it?

What respectable church doesn't provide its own parishioners with accurate financial reports on where the money is spent? How many Scientologists know where the money goes?

Let us not forget that this organization had 11 of its top members indicted for infiltrating US government offices with the intent of stealing files that contained what they perceived as negative information about Scientology, and replacing them with positive information (Operation Snow White).

Let us not forget that this same organization is not considered a 'religion' of 'charitable' at all in many parts of the world; Germany's decision to view Scn, Inc. as a profit-making detriment to democracy was met with lobbying in the US to get legislators to condemn Germany's 'religious bigotry.'

Let us not forget one of Scientology's main goals is to 'destroy psychiatry' which it actively pursues through front groups and lobbying efforts.

The religion angle does not work for me as far as $cientology goes. They sell a product. They make a profit on a product. Furthermore, they don't pay taxes on the product they sell. That is ripping me off as a taxpayer. They clog up the courts with the most acenine lawsuits, further taking my taxpayer money. I do not want to prevent anyone from believing in "scientology," but reject its attempts to masquerade as a religion. If this were a business, they would be sued for fraud and false claims. They can not and never will be able to accomplish what they say they can with the "tech." In fact, there is a website that offers 3 million dollars to any Scientologist who can back up their claims of miraculous self changes and powers. To date there has not been one follower who has been able to physically prove a benefit from Scientology. As far as I am concerned, this "religion" should be shut down, taxed, opened to investors, and audited. David Miscavige should be thrown in jail with the rest of his cronies.

"Point being, I doubt there's some monolithic conspiracy out there to "police" the bloggosphere for wrongdoing. Just people with varied interests speaking on what they know."
Posted by Rathj


Are you sure about that Rathj? I see the same
scientologists here posting on every blog that mentions scientology.

Raymond Hill (runs a critical website) and Sal Planet, post variously and suggest their efforts are beneficent. Yet a great many people will tell you, "Scientology has been helpful to me". I'm in that group. I have directly observed the good Scientology does and have used it to help other people. No, critics aren't beneficent; take a hike, guys! Get out, get some fresh air, see the grandeur of our planet!

Except for scientologists and the person who is open about being a Mormon, I don't see others telling us what their religions are. Those who don't like scientology should be honest and let others know what they do support.

Justin, will you marry me ... or at least have my child? You're so sexy when you write what you do!!!

Scientology has two people detailed to handle
internet operations, it's their job to find stories about scientology and put some positive spin on it. There was a Tom Cruise poll and it was found that 11,000 postive votes came from just
10 IP addresses, those IP adresses were found to be owned by scientology. Terryeo, the guy who just wants us to stop talking about scientology, was on a mission at Wikipedia to insert positive
spin and delete anything negative until he got banned.

I first got involved with Scientology in 1972 and realized then its fraudulent nature. Shortly thereafter I went to work for a Scientologist-- and he was the biggest crook I've ever seen outside a cell, barred or padded. Then, at a science-fiction convention, I talked to a witness who was present when L-Ron bet his editor, John W. Campbell, that he could come up with a book that would get him a cult following and at least a million dollars; Campbell said "You're on!" and the rest is unfortunate history. Remember, this "church" has been convicted of breaking into FBI offices-- what else have they done and haven't been caught (besides murder, that is)?

--ScienceMikey

Sal - I know you. You are as dishonest as you were when you pretended to be a Scientologist for all those years. During those 30 years when you lied over and over again saying you wanted to continue in Scientology. Even when the Church didn't want you and you begged two times to come back, or did you forget? Which is it Sal? Huh? If what you say is true - that people can't change - then how are we to believe you? You're a proven liar? What was your purpose to claiming all your gains for so many years applying Scientology? So like I said - these people haven't read a book, haven't actually seen anything, their ignorance is, well, ignorance and they are not to fault. But you have. You wrote and convinced many people to let you continue in Scientology. It's people like you who begged to be in Scientology and then stealing like you did, have to try to give it a bad name through misinterpretations, to make yourself feel justified. That's fine. Like I said, these people haven't actually read or seen any true Scientology. I hope for your sake, for your own integrity, someone, anywhere helps you become honest with yourself your poor pathetic man.

DK:

Whooooaaaaahhhh. You are a vicious little sucker. Thanks for proving that Scientology is a sadistic cult that uses threats and intimidation to control its adherents and punish apostates. You are a sick puppy, man.

DK - "Even when the Church didn't want you and you begged two times to come back, or did you forget?" I guess I did forget, DK. Thanks for reminding me why I left scientology.

Are there Scientology lurkers out there? Sure there are, and Mr. James Lightfield is one of them. Gee, I hope I have one of those magic paper bags when 65% of oxygen breathing lifeforms die in order for me to get beachfront property in Malibu. Xenu works in mysterious ways. Oh, and I guess I don't know anything about Scientology since I've never finished a piece of literary trash like Dianetics. Nor have I been masochistic enough to take a course. I guess I can't be a part of "the fastest growing religion in the world."

I get it guys. Critics are evil for speaking out against scientology. They are either hiding crimes or being paid off by some unknown group. How silly can you get here?
Terryeo no critic rants near as much as you and James Lightfield. You two are everywhere on every site that does a critial story on scientology. You have been banned from Wiki for your behavor so lets not take the high road when you have been hiding in the ditch.

James, I hope everyone looks at the BBC exposed clip you are speaking of. I'm sure its on U Tube. Then to be really fair why don't you ask them to take a look at the special its self? The scientology one is very cut up and edited and the BBC one shows the whole special.

But you know Alex has a point. I hope everyone does go to the scientology site and have a look around. Its at scientology.org.
But again to be fair next take a look at xenu.net and xenutv.com . While they may claim the owner is a bigot or being funded by some unknown sorce which is not true, the public and court records stand on their own. As do the hours of video showing how the members of scientology really act when the public isn't watching.

See for yourself and then decide.

Actually, JeraldR, my efforts at Wikipedia were to present factual information on the page. First. Before the the archived quotes from newsgroups were presented. Such a methods allows a person to think for themselves, you see? But Wikipedia's donations are failing. As I said there, editing problems first manifest in Religion and Art and later in additional areas. Good luck to its Board of Directors, JeraldR.

I would like to make one point. I am a Scientologist, and it amazes me to see how the mere mention of the subject elicits so much hate. If someone were to post an article like this about what is called a "mainstream" religion, do you think they would ever get the kind of invective that some feel it is perfectly alright to spew here? Substitute "Catholic" or "Jew" or "Muslim" for "Scientologist" in some of the irrational statements above. And regardless of that, how would you feel if you were subjected to this kind of hatred? Really? As to my being a Scientologist, I'm very proud of it. I'm very happy with where I am in life, physically, spiritually and emotionally. I have a great marriage, excellent relationships with my (non-Scientologist) family members, I have been told by many that I look much younger than I am (a complement, let me assure you!). I enjoy people, enjoy helping, am interested in many issues. I'm pretty much like most people I know (but with a more positive outlook than a lot of them, and because of what I've gained from Scientology I'm often looked to to solve gnarly problems or to sort things out when people are upset with each other). I think the Internet tends to make bullies out of otherwise fairly rational people. I think for many of the people who are posting here, it would be a really good idea for you to get to know a Scientologist personally and learn that we're actually flesh and blood people with feelings and ideas that are not that different from your own, and who deserve to be treated with respect. I would also suggest that before you buy the kind of hatred you can see in some of these comments that you read a book by L. Ron Hubbard, such as Dianetics: the Modern Science of Mental Health. That is what Scientology is about.

Terryeo states: "my efforts at Wikipedia were to present factual information"

Than explain to me, what is your source supporting your 'factual' assertion that Wikipedia's donations are falling?

According to a 2006 independent audit, Wikipedia had revenue of over $1.6 million, and expenses of over $900,000. You can find this independent auditing report directly from the front page of Wikipedia. (and don't expect to find the same transparency from 'nonprofit' Church of Scientology.)

The above might be indicative of why you were banned from Wikipedia, your definition of 'factual' seems to differ significantly from its usual meaning.

In Scientology, there are policies (or scripture if you wish) which are at the root of violation of many basic human rights:

Article 12: "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation."

Fact: Auditing information has been used to blackmail/coerce people into not speaking out about their experience into Scientology.

Fact: There are policies of disconnection for Scientologists who have relative and/or friends that express concerns regarding their involvement in Scientology.

Fact: L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology wrote policies to "originate a black PR campaign" against people criticizing his worldview.

Article 9: "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile."

Fact: The list of instances of false imprisonment individuals by Scientology organization is very long.

Article 2: "Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status."

Fact: L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, wrote: "A truly Suppressive Person or group has no rights of any kind as Scientologists and actions taken against them are not punishable under Scientology Ethics Codes."

Etc. etc. etc.

The question is: why do you believe it's wrong to oppose an organization that has a lengthy record of abusing basic human rights? An organization that has a lengthy record of policy-driven *infiltrations* of institutions with the objective of gaining an advantage and thus undermining the democratic fabric of our societies.

But as per Scientology scripture, you are not allowed to consider the merit of what I wrote here, you are trained to dismiss everything I say, and focus on my supposed "hidden crimes", as I am certainly marked as an evil "suppressive person" by your organization, because I criticize it.

Jenny, I am happy you feel fulfilled and happy with your life. Nobody has nothing against that. But like Tom Cruise, you confuse 'criticism' with 'hate'.

You state: "I'm often looked to to solve gnarly problems or to sort things out when people are upset with each other"

That could be really handy to solve the irrational and dangerous stance Scientology has against psychiatry. This in particular:

http://www.xenu-directory.net/topics/miscavige-vs-psychiatry.html

The thing is, psychiatrists are also "flesh and blood people with feelings and ideas" like you say.

In any case, you miss the point: people criticize the countless Scientology policies/doctrines/scripture that lead to abuses/wrongs/lies/misrepresentations, and yes, crimes.

Maggie, and you have a problem with getting rid of psychiatry because....
1. It incarcerates people against their will?
2. It turns people into bumbling idiots with its drugs?
3. It performs irreversible electric shock therapy on people?
4. It puts people in its prisons called institions until their insurance won't pay anymore and turns them out on the street to form more homeless people addicted to mind alerting drugs?
5. It abuses Medicare and Medical by erroneously billing for services?
6. It's practitioners charge for office visits while raping their clients?
7. It says it cures people by cutting out portions of the brains.
Gee which one of these do you pick Maggie?

Another great piece, Ross Douthat!

If Mr Oppenheimer were a Scientologist, he'd wear the label 'Theetie Weetie' , a meaning Hubbard gave to those who sugar coat the hard truth because they cannot handle it.

Mark Oppenheimer tried unsuccessfully to conclude his opinion of Scientology based upon the unique situation Milton Katselas has managed to keep himself in. Being able to control his own involvement in the cult to his own advantage.

Katselas is the exception to the rule other scientologists must follow because he's a 'celebrity' who they are afraid of. You see, the church forgot Katselas about back in the 80's when David Miscavige took reign. All he has to do is make a few phone calls announcing he's called it quits, and the cardboard church falls apart in Hollywood.

Katselas is a fringe member who has not really moved up the cult 'bridge to total freedom' in years, sitting comfortably right where he is, using the parts of scientology that he feels are helpful, gaining a steady flow of clientele as a 'celebrity' while keeping the church staff & management pitbulls at bey.

One day I hope Katselas sees the damage he's doing to the minds of others by creating this facade around the truth, flimsey as it may seem to us 'wogs'.

Mary
ps: Because of your public disapproval of scientology, your scientologist relative may well be forced to 'handle or disconnect' from you. I hope he comes to his senses before they make mincemeat out of him for the connection.

Dear Scientologists:


Scientology says that they have ALL the answers. So why is Scientology struggling so much? Why is it attacked so much? Laughed at? Oh yes, they can blame the vast suppressive conspiracy, but, to repeat myself: They have all the answers. They have lots of OTs on their side. The vast suppressive conspiracy (assuming that such a thing exists) doesn't have the tools, those SPs are degraded beings; By definition, SPs can't complete a cycle of action. So why can't Scientology handle this problem? Haven't you noticed this?


Supposedly, Scientology has the ultimate administrative technology. So why is it shrinking? They tell stories of great expansion, but one walks into any Scientology Church in the world and the place is inevitably empty. That's not the official story but GO AND LOOK. All the churches that were previously "Saint Hill size" are now empty. What do you believe, the PR or your own eyes? Except for the poor staff, the places are deserted. This is not a localized problem, this is global and is a failure of top management. If one assumes that top management wants vast expansion, why can't they do that?


Apparently, top management is lying to you when the claim vast, wonderful expansion. They are failing miserably at their jobs. Haven't you wondered why you never saw any evidence of the expansion with your own eyes?


One more thing: Except for Miscavige, all the top management people have disappeared. Have you noticed? Do you want to know why? They have ALL been declared suppressive and kicked out or locked up by Miscavige. Think about that: Miscavige has gotten rid of every top management person, declared them suppressive, but still the problems persist. Are you thinking yet?


There is a drill in Scientology called the Obnosis Drill, has to do with "observing the obvious". Well observe the obvious. Don't explain it away. Don't ignore it. Don't just assume that "there must be a reasonable explanation." Look! See what is there. Don't assume. Don't explain. See what is really going on. Open your eyes.


It is time to wake up.

OK, just for yocks, give me an example of a modern day person who has been destroyed by the evangelical subculture of mainstream Mormonism.

Just one.

Name, story, degree of destruction.

That's all I ask.

Point being, why must we constantly associate Mormonism with Scientology? Didn’t the Mormons learn their lesson about a hundred years ago and straighten up? I’ve looked into both schools of thought and they seem to have nothing in common. One seeks to unite the soul with God; the other seeks to unite the wallet with Miscaviage. What is the common denominator here???

Up here someone mentioned the great and hilarious video Pink Munky, "What's the matter with you, Hat?".
Unfortunately it was removed from YouTube due to a DMCA complaint.
It is, however, online again!
Watch it here:
http://www.scamofscientology.nl/pagina1.html

Terryeo...

A member of the Cult of Scientologys OSA (black ops).

For more on this criminal please check out www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Terryeo

Terryeo...

A member of the Cult of Scientologys OSA (black ops).

For more on this criminal please check out www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Terryeo

Terryeo...

A member of the Cult of Scientologys OSA (black ops).

For more on this criminal please check out www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Terryeo