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The Ahmadinejad Follies

26 Sep 2007 12:16 pm

From the LA Times, via Chris Suellentrop:

These critics not only disrespect such core American principles as academic freedom and freedom of speech, they disrespect the intelligence of Ahmadinejad’s audience. It isn’t likely that many were swayed by his wild-eyed questioning of the facts of the Holocaust or who was really behind the 9/11 attacks. The biggest laugh of the afternoon came when, in response to a question about the Iranian regime’s brutal treatment of homosexuals (a crime punishable by death), Ahmadinejad remarked, “In Iran, we don’t have homosexuals like in your country.” He also declared that “women in Iran have the highest level of freedom” even though they are forbidden from such basic social activities as attending soccer games, and said “we are friends with the Jewish people” while attributing nearly all the world’s ills to Jews. It’s hard to believe that anyone with a third-grade education would find him convincing.

In 1939, a journalist named Alan Cranston was outraged by a sanitized English-language translation of Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf,” so he edited his own abridged version that bared the German dictator’s sinister soul. Cranston, who later became California’s longest-serving Democratic senator, understood something that Obama, Romney, McConnell et al do not: The best way to discredit a tyrant is to let him do it himself, in his own poisonous words.

This is astonishingly dumb. As Matt says, "free speech" is not at stake in a private university's decision to invite speakers to address its student body. Nor, I hope, was anyone who opposed the Iranian President's appearance seriously worried that he was going to convert his Ivy League audience to Shi'a radicalism. But just because a bunch of Columbia students found him ridiculous doesn't mean that everybody else did - and it's the "everybody else" that he was playing to.

And yes, of course one shouldn't censor the rantings of a tyrant to make him sound moderate. But the notion that "the best way to discredit a tyrant is to let him do it himself, in his own poisonous words" is just pious nonsense untouched by experience. A dictator's "poisonous words" are quite often the source of his strength, not a chink in his armor; so it was with Hitler, and so it is (albeit to a far, far lesser extent) with Iran's dinner-theater demagogue. Alan Cranston's more-accurate translation of Mein Kampf was an admirable contribution to the West's understanding of the Nazi regime, no doubt, but if I recall my history right, it didn't exactly bring Hitlerism to its knees.

Comments (61)

I'm not so sure Hitler ever participated in an open forum in which he allowed himself to be ruthlessly criticized and openly mocked, and therein lies the difference.

Hitler's "poisonous words" were crafted and delivered in carefully controlled mediums where the aura and mystique of his power were never allowed to be questioned. Ahmadinejad's Columbia experience was in no way such an event.

The best defense against flawed propaganda is transparency and truth. I only hope Ahmadinejad will continue to make a fool of himself on such a big stage.

You don't recall your history right -- or more accurately, you willfully misread something I am pretty sure you actually know. Cranston did not intend to bring Hitler to his knees, nor did Columbia and its forum anticipate (in any public statement I have seen) that exposing Ahmadinejad to public scrutiny and ridicule would undermine him at home.

The bloviations of those opposed to the Columbia speech did, I think play to the Iranian President's interests -- they allow him to portray himself as the man whose words alone are too dangerous for Americans to hear. But Columbia did exactly what Cranston set out to do -- expose to the west the nature and character of an opponent who should not be taken lightly.

The real difference is that Ahmadinejad is not Hitler; he does not have a monopoly on power in his home country and he does not have anything like Hitlerine Germany's military capacity. When you, and your fellow travellers on the "don't bother me with reality" right boost him above his real status as dangerous but not all powerful foe, you help create exactly what you decry. So what else is new.

Hitler! Hitler hitler hitler hitler hitler! And Hitler hitler hitler hitler hitler, hitler hitler hitler? Hitler, hitler hitler.

Hitler, hitler hitler hitler hitler hitler - hitler hitler hitler.

I apologize for that last post. Billy Kristol and Ross and a few Podhoretzes burst in, beat me on the head with an autographed copy of "Mein Kampf," and then went over to my computer and started typing and cackling. Then Kristol used my cat's litter box before they all went running out to the street and piled into a Mercedes and drove off.

I'm keeping the door locked from now on.

You link to Larison but did you even read the links he offers as proof that Ahamdinejad's appearance had some wider impact? I'm afraid they don't come close to doing so.

Ahmadinejad's views on homosexuality dovetail nicely with those of ultra-conservatives in the U.S., and I guess that makes you uncomfortable.

The real stupidity here is the underlying belief that there is a trade-off between the natural outcomes of a liberal society and that society's strength, as if every second not spent actively hating Ahmadinejad is a second leading to defeat.

In the particular case of Ahmadinejad, he has been built into a genre villain by know-nothings eager for war and the chance to label those who don't drink the Iran kool-aid 'anti-american'. Having him speak at Columbia and appear completely deceitful and regressive was a benefit to anybody who actually cares about Middle Eastern peace and Iranian reform.

oh, ross, why go all nro on us? ahmad's 'poisonous words' are spoken in his home country where no-one can stop him. here, he moderated his tone, and still appeared a barking fool. of course he discredited himself - the fact that some people thought he did a sterling job is a function of the fact that those people are dumb or deluded or obtuse. in fact, this seems to be the substance of your position: some people are too dumb to be exposed to certain types of discourse. is that 'straussian'? is that 'patrician'? or is that just snobbism?

also, the reason he resonates with certain people on the israel / palestine issue, is because leaders in the west, especially in america, who could do something about solving it refuse to for nakedly political reasons.

i have no idea why the right got so worked up about the columbia incident - unless they were frightened that even this vacuous homunculus could expose the weaknesses in some of their positions.

waaay too many uses of the word 'fact' in my last comment, i apologise.

lesson: don't type, eat soup and watch CNN at the same time...

Also, echoing above, the links about Ahmadinejad's reception are underwhelming. Is it shocking that the MP of Iran and six Iranian university heads were outraged by Bollinger and thought that Ahmadinejad showed him a thing or two?

The fact that the smallest bit of progaganda from another country sends conservatives into a faint says something significant about the right-wing's view of actual humans.

a while back chris sullentrop was faced off against jackie shire on bloggingheads. they were talking about what women want to read and sullentrop observed contemptuously that female staffers at a publication he worked at suggested for fashion, entertainment, etc., aghast, he recounted to shire that they were insulting their own sex, to which shire asked "i like reading that stuff! what's wrong with that!" so chris took the standard male & female = no difference line, and proceeded to assume that all women would have his values. anyway, i think such infantile (and pandering in intent) thinking is a pretty much measure of a man....

(see it here)
http://bloggingheads.tv/video.php?id=208&cid=1056

MoeLarryAndJesus,

You're an idiot. Why are so angry all the time? You must be the perfect example of the result of a life of all cynicism and no substance. Tell me why I'm wrong.

I think what this entire exchange has clearly showed is that nearly all of Columbia's detractors and many of their defenders have a depressing lack of perspective.

It's a phenomenon best described as "World War 2 Envy." Our grandfathers fought in a colossal worldwide clash against unspeakable evils and existential threats to our way of life. Our parents survived the shadow of nuclear war, desegregated our societies, and stood firmly against a mighty totalitarian empire. We live in an era of relative peace, prosperity, and boredom. There are more news media than ever, and there isn't enough news to fill it unless we bother to take an interest in distant places like the Sudan and Burma, which our news media generally don't.

We are blessed to live in uninteresting times.

I suppose it's only natural that our culture has produced a large number of people who desperately, desperately want to fight in an existential worldwide clash against something or other and stand firmly against someone, even when the actual threat level is far, far lower than what our parents and grandparents faced. 9/11 was, of course, a horrible tragedy. A nuclear-armed Iran would be a very bad thing. But these are the sort of threats that pose more danger to us by overreacting to them as we do by underreacting to them, as the Iraq War has proven to our great cost.

Yes, Ahmedinejad is a despicable person who fronts a thuggish regime. Yes, people who protested the appearance were wildly overreacting but they were hardly "attacking free speech." And for God's sake, Ahmedinejad is no Hitler. He may want to wipe Israel off the map, but he hasn't got the capability, and considering that Israel has their own nuclear deterrent I think they're going to be just fine.

Your grandparents went through hell to provide you with a relatively free, peaceful, and prosperous world. Don't insult them by pretending that we're facing the same type of threats, and don't flatter yourselves by acting as if you would welcome sort of "excitement" they lived through. They didn't want it, and neither should you.

"Tell me why I'm wrong."

Bad genes, probably. Or massive drug and alcohol abuse by your host-mother while you were in utero, or the cord wrapped around your neck, or you were dropped on your head at an early age, or congenital syphilis - I really can't say for sure and I really don't care.

Ross needs to read Justice Holmes' dissent in Abrams v. United States:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=250&invol=616

And for God's sake, Ahmedinejad is no Hitler.

My unfortunate experience is that this cannot be repeated enough times -- people cannot let go of this analogy, and it enslaves many into believing we have no choice but to be unwaveringly belligerent to Iran, lest we all instantly become Neville Chamberlain.

I wonder how someone who buys into that goes through life. If they find out their lawn is regularly trespassed by schoolchildren walking home from class, does he jut out his jaw, exclaim "we shall nevah surrender," and start building high electrified fences to protect himself? It's a paranoid, over-dramatic analogy to use all the time.

DU

All of this applause for Columbia's provision of a podium to Ahmedinejad misses the forest for the trees, and shows a dangerous intellectual self- regard. The Iranian president's appearance was not a free speech issue at all, but was rather an embarrassingly simple act of political calculation on his part. He played successfully to the much bigger Muslim world, and the Columbia crowd played to themselves. Unfortunately, just because some pundits believe his shortcomings are readily apparent doesn't make a big enough difference in the greater scheme of things.

Lisa Podhoretz writes: "All of this applause for Columbia's provision of a podium to Ahmedinejad misses the forest for the trees, and shows a dangerous intellectual self- regard."

The ultimate "dangerous intellectual self-regard" is displayed by the neo-cons who argued for war in Iraq and now argue for the same with Iran.

Back when Khruschev came to the States during the Eisenhower presidency, we reacted like adults. And he actually had political power, in a country that actually did pose an existential threat.
http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/bet_wetter_nation

That, of course, was before the Republican Party became jingoist, delusional, and insane.

Why are conservatives so convinced that America might fall at any moment, from the twin dangers of the Iran-bin Laden-Venezuela superalliance and gay people living openly? Why do they lack any confidence in democracy and capitalism?

He played successfully to the much bigger Muslim world

Repeating this over and over won't make it true.

Elvis E asks: "Why are conservatives so convinced that America might fall at any moment, from the twin dangers of the Iran-bin Laden-Venezuela superalliance and gay people living openly? Why do they lack any confidence in democracy and capitalism?"

The rank-and-file cons buy into the "danger, Will Robinson, danger" hysteria because they're stupid, ignorant, and easily led. The ruling cons use it as a tool to get elected. One would hope few of them actually believe it, but I'm not sure about Dumbya, who sure seems like he's dumb enough to buy it.

Back when Khruschev came to the States during the Eisenhower presidency, we reacted like adults.

That's because Eisenhower and the people running this country at that time had fought their battles -- they were mature...adults.

Today's conservatives are like teenage kids. They never fought any battles. They were the wimps in school who couldn't ever win a fight. They avoided military service cause they were too scared.

So now they're spoiling for a fight like a teenager in the school-yard; they're trying to make up for their pathetic youth, with the knowledge that someone else will do the fighting for them.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

Your incisive analysis cuts through all doubt. Who can argue with your reasoned and unbiased view of how the world works? Mere mortals must tremble at your greatness and seek the counsel of one so wise. Either that or Saturday nights are litter box cleaning times for your lonely pathetic self.

Re MoeLarry comment above:
Don't leap to conclusions; this is not Lisa Podhoretz. Also, your comment about warmongers is off-point.
Re Woody comment above:
Ahmedinajad is crazy but not so stupid as your comment implies; and obviously, he wouldn't be where he is now if his rantings weren't lapped up uncritically by a great number of people.

Lisa Podhoretz replies: "Don't leap to conclusions; this is not Lisa Podhoretz. Also, your comment about warmongers is off-point."

Gee, I thought everyone had gotten the memo. "Podhoretz" is a new generic title for warmongers. Wear it wisely. Wear it well. It goes especially nicely with Making Hitler Comparisons, in case you're making such plans.

Anytime you want to return to the topic let us know.

"Anytime you want to return to the topic let us know." - Lisa Podhoretz

I'm right on target, chuckles. Read the article again. Did you perchance post on the wrong thread?

Ros says "A dictator's poisonous words are quite often the source of his strength" So the best response is to put your fingers in your ears and say "la la la la la"?

When you tell a dictator "we won't let you speak", you are saying "I'm afraid of your ideas". So let the clown speak, then tell the world why he's wrong.

A guy named George Bush spoke to Congress on Sept. 20, 2001. He said "We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies."

More stuff like that, less bombing. Otherwise, we're not who we pretend to be.

-DM

Ahmedinajad is crazy but not so stupid as your comment implies; and obviously, he wouldn't be where he is now if his rantings weren't lapped up uncritically by a great number of people.

Um, I wasn't implying that he was stupid, Ms. Podhoretz.

You guys may need to excuse my rampant lefty idealism, but: am I crazy for thinking that the liberal/democratic side of this debate also gets something from this? I can remember getting an email forward a while back that approvingly quoted an Ahmadinejad quote criticizing Bush, and if Ahmadinejad's appearance at Columbia effectively quashes any support the man might have received from the fringes of the my own side of the American politican debate, I'd have no problem with it. (And I think that, say, rescinding his invitation might have given him greater credibility in some circles.)

Seeing the academic left getting applauded by conservative front pages for their denunciation of Ahmadinejad also strikes me as a plus. Marty Peretz's shouts of "left-wing fascism" aside, I'm all for events that remind Americans, left- and right-wing alike, that there are world leaders out there that we can find equally odious.

Tobias writes: "Seeing the academic left getting applauded by conservative front pages for their denunciation of Ahmadinejad also strikes me as a plus. Marty Peretz's shouts of "left-wing fascism" aside, I'm all for events that remind Americans, left- and right-wing alike, that there are world leaders out there that we can find equally odious."

Or even better, it makes for a nice contrast with the public prostate massage Bush gave then-Prince Abdullah a few years ago.

Another difference between Ahmadinejad and Khruschev, of course, bears consideration. Khrushchev was a man who, whatever his faults and notwithstanding his repression of the Hungarian uprising, had made important efforts to humanize and liberalize the Soviet system. he was the man who denounced Stalin at the 'Secret Speech', mostly closed down the Siberian labor camps, shifted the Soviet economy in favor of consumer goods and more freedom and equality, slightly decentralized party authority, allowed the dispossessed minorities to return to their homelands, and rehabilitated many victims of Stalin's purges. Whether you view Stalinism as the essence of Communism, or as a perversion of it, Khrushchev did a lot to de-Stalinize the Soviet Union. (Perhaps he was in his way trying to make amends for the way he had faithfully served Stalin in the '30s.) One needs to consider not just the way a leader rules, but also how he rules given the constraints of the system, and in which direction he takes that system.

Ahmadinejad, of course, has not done too much to liberalize Iran, probably the contrary. Whatever your views about the balance of good and bad in the Iranian system, Iran is certainly no more liberal or humane a place to live than it was three years ago. In other words, a comparison to Khrushchev is inapt, it would be more accurate to call Ahmadinejad the Brezhnev of Iran (leaving aside the question of whether the Soviet Union was intrinsically a less evil place than Iran), so the real question isn't whether we would have invited Khrushchev, but whether we would have invited Brezhnev.

All:

I guess you guys haven't figured out that MoeLarryAndJesus isn't an actual person. "He" is a link to a left-wing cliche generator. The database was compiled using term papers written by sophomores at Oberlin. It's fun though. Let's see how it responds to this post!

I guess you guys haven't figured out that MoeLarryAndJesus isn't an actual person. "He" is a link to a left-wing cliche generator. The database was compiled using term papers written by sophomores at Oberlin. It's fun though. Let's see how it responds to this post!

No, the truth is far more ordinary. Just a garden variety douchebag.

Ok, Dilan. I know Holmes' dissent, and read it just now. And I don't get. Why would Ross want to read it, in this context?

Marquis:

Because Holmes espoused the theory behind our system, and the answer to those who are afraid of allowing Ahmadinejad to speak:

"But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas-that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out. That at any rate is the theory of our Constitution. It is an experiment, as all life is an experiment. Every year if not every day we have to wager our salvation upon some prophecy based upon imperfect knowledge. While that experiment is part of our system I think that we should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death, unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country."

Dilan cites: "While that experiment is part of our system I think that we should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death, unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country."

And to date, this has never actually happened, although authoritarian bullies and their lickspittles have claimed that it had many times.

I think we have millions of cons in this country who would spoon down bowls of Dick Cheney's warm vomit and call it bouillabaisse, even though they wouldn't pronounce bouillabaisse correctly.

Yes, free speech isn't at stake when a private university invites someone to speak because the only reason the term 'free speech' is important to Americans is as a restriction on the government's power to persecute us. We never use it to express any of our other values, such as the ability of citizens in a liberal democracy to hear challenging ideas and confront them rather than stick their heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist. Nope, that ain't a lesson worth teaching. It's just about the government.

You're killing me here Ross. I know that you are smarter than this.

"free speech" is not at stake in a private university's decision to invite speakers to address its student body

It is at stake when government officials threaten to punish the university for doing so.

Vermando writes: "Yes, free speech isn't at stake when a private university invites someone to speak because the only reason the term 'free speech' is important to Americans is as a restriction on the government's power to persecute us. We never use it to express any of our other values, such as the ability of citizens in a liberal democracy to hear challenging ideas and confront them rather than stick their heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist. Nope, that ain't a lesson worth teaching. It's just about the government.

You're killing me here Ross. I know that you are smarter than this."

That Vermando is still an undergraduate impresses me. It seems the Bushpig Era has turned a generation against stupidity - where far too many Rosses and so on spent their college years getting free drinks from Jack Abramoff and bowing at the shrine of Saint Reagan, maybe the next set is ready to piss all over that sort of selfish ignorance.

Yee-hah.

Vermando's insight is, I think, an extremely important one. "The value of free speech" encapsulates a much broader & significant set of values than just the importance of not having the gov't restrict speech. The latter is an essential precondition of the former, but nowhere near its full extent.

Unrelatedly: I would note that much of the left-right mutual incomprehension on this issue has an excellent explanation in terms of Haidt's theory. Conservatives tend to have a visceral concern for the respect of hierarchies that liberals tend not to have. Thus conservatives may be feeling a visceral concern that Columbia _has granted status_ to Ahmadinejad, where liberals are only experiencing the episode in harm terms and justice terms. So, since no one was hurt, and since Bollinger was acting within his rights, and even promoting the key justice-serving norms of the free clash of ideas in foro publico -- there's nothing in the situation to vex the liberal mind. So liberals are puzzling over the fuss, while conservatives are frustrated that liberals can't see the problem of giving such a position to such a man. Again, just the sort of thing Haidt predicts.

You do know Moesy, that bouillabaisse is cold soup, not warm? Not that I'd expect you to know, or care for that matter - don't let facts get in the way of cant and rant.

beneficial

bouillabaisse is most certainly NOT a cold soup - but surely, dick cheney's vomit would be cold as his heart?

Victor Davis Hanson sums up the absurdity of allowing Ahnadinejad the privilege of an Ivy-League forum.

In the circus that followed, Ahmadinejad weighed in on everything from Israel to homosexuals, and came off, as expected, like a petty bigot. All the same, by his very presence on an Ivy League stage, Ahmadinejad showed the world that a top American university considers his odious views worth showcasing.
Ahmadinejad has denied the first Holocaust and all but promised a second one. His country's government is on its way to having a nuclear bomb, sends Iranian terrorists into Iraq to kill American soldiers and customarily jails journalists and expels politically active students from their universities. But all that apparently still earned Ahmadinejad his publicity coup -- and occasional applause from the Columbia audience.

Peter Leavitt writes: "Victor Davis Hanson sums up the absurdity of allowing Ahnadinejad the privilege of an Ivy-League forum."

It's "Ivy League," Petey. No hyphen necessary.

You should also consider the absurdity of a warmongering lunatic like Vic - who has been wrong at every turn about the events in Iraq - being considered worth listening to about anything.

Let's recall what happened after the Kitchen table debate. There was Kruschev's promise in
June 1960?; to deploy missiles in Cuba. Then there was the building of the Berlin Wall; to which there was no response, unlike in '48 with the Berlin Airlift. Kennedy seemed to reply to that, with an equal promise to support the Cuban opposition. Which he would discard at the time of the Bay of Pigs; failing to support a second air strike and use the task force. Kennedy had week follow through with Mongoose, to which Kruschev followed up his pledge and sent the missiles and the 100,000 troops; which Kennedy didn't acknowledge until September 1962; despite contrary intelligence. Then came the game of nuclear chicken; which Kennedy blinked at forcing the removal of the Jupiter missiles from Turkey and forging the Kennedy/Kruschev understanding against exile intervention from US shores. The same crew having seen the Cuba operation as a success; moved on to Vietnam; with that history
of mixed signals and graduated responses.

Ok, I'll grant that Holmes in some ways was such a fool on these matters, so dedicated to a fetish verison of "the marketplace of ideas" that he might have meant "and by this I mean that major universities should be sure to give major platforms to every ludicrous, offensive, or hostile idea imagineable." But the narrower point of the ruling is not really in play here -- if Columbia and Yale don't _invite_ me to speak, I can't really say they are quashing my speech. If they are, then I have some bones to pick with most (not all) major universities!

I also wish to claim my NYT op-ed spot.

For instance, let us say that I think dinosaurs and cavemen lived together, and the fossil record is a work of Satan. If Columbia, or Yale, or NYU doesn't let me teach a class, they are squashing my right to expression -- a free marketplace of ideas, after all! Sure, my ideas are STUPID.

Now, if folks suggest that Bollinger did something against the law, or treasonous, rather than merely asinine, I agree -- that's a danger to free speech. But most criticism has been of the "this is a bad idea, and giving a forum to idiocy and malice" -- the "giving respect" point above. There's no danger to free speech in saying we shouldn't _respect_ some ideas (see my dinosaur nonsense above) and grant them forums. Liberals SHOULD be capable of seeing that this applies even if the idiotic ideas come from someone famous who "runs" another country.

There is no threat to free speech in suggesting that it is _bad_ (not illegal, just _bad_, unwise, imprudent, stupid, asinine, etc.) to give some ideas certain kinds of stage. Furthermore, whatever their more-Voltaire-than-Voltaire rhetoric, I don't know anyone on the left or libertarian right who actually applies or endorses in general this idiotic reductio-ad-absurdum of free speech. So why invoke it for this case?

We never use it to express any of our other values, such as the ability of citizens in a liberal democracy to hear challenging ideas and confront them rather than stick their heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist.

Note what Ross said in another post -- "If Sayyid Qutb were alive and writing, for instance, I would be very interested to watch him debate a liberal, secular Ivy League political philosopher."

I think this gets to the heart of _my_ problem with Columbia. Qutb would be a great choice to speak at Columbia -- I don't like what he said much, but he had a formidable intellect and was a true scholar. He had things to say that are not trivial, mere propaganda, or the like. I don't think anyone's pretending the ideas presented at Columbia don't exist -- if anything, conservatives who griped tend to go on about the "interesting" ideas of the speaker more than they deserve. Look, a class on macro-evolution might benefit, if taught from certain perspectives, from a visit by a serious proponent of punctuated equilibrium ideas (I don't know -- I haven't kept up with the science on this in the last many years since I got bored reading Stephen Jay Gould) -- but it would not benefit from "challenging" the ideas of my dinosaurs-and-cavemen-like-ebony-and-ivory fellow.

Ok, I'll grant that Holmes in some ways was such a fool on these matters, so dedicated to a fetish verison of "the marketplace of ideas" that he might have meant "and by this I mean that major universities should be sure to give major platforms to every ludicrous, offensive, or hostile idea imagineable."

The point, Marquis, is our whole system is premised on this theory. If we were afraid of false ideas being expressed, we wouldn't have a first amendment.

Thus, if one believes in the theory behind the First Amendment, one shouldn't be afraid of what might happen by allowing this man a forum to speak his views. And this is true even though the First Amendment's precise terms do not apply to this situation.

If, on the other hand, you think that disseminating Ahmadenijad's views is harmful, then you should be consistent and support the repeal of the First Amendment, because it must cause all sorts of harm by permitting the dissemination of dangerous ideas.

Re: Ahmadinejad has denied the first Holocaust and all but promised a second one. His country's government is on its way to having a nuclear bomb, sends Iranian terrorists into Iraq to kill American soldiers and customarily jails journalists and expels politically active students from their universities.

Conservatives have supported any number of pro-Western regimes that 'jailed journalists and expell[ed] politically active students from their university." If this had happened in Chile, or Colombia, or the Dominican Republic, Mr. Hanson would presumably applaud it as giving the Communists what they deserve, or similar such nonsense.

I suspect that the war in Iraq which Mr. Hanson enthusiastically supported has caused more human misery by a long shot than anything Ahmadinejad could dream of.

And Ross, really, given that Sayyid Qutb is dead, who would you choose to hear from if you wanted to give the ideas of Islamism a hearing. Or for that matter other radical, anti-liberal ideologies. Are there any spokesmen or thinkers from, say, Iran or China or Cuba or Venezuela that you would invite to Columbia?

Dilan, this is silly. The premise of the First Amendment is not some absolutist Holmes-ian marketplace of ideas theory -- and early US history bears this out. It was a particular concern about state power, not an axiom requiring, say, the NYT to grant everyone a podium.

I don't think the "harm" at Columbia is due to some nasty Goedel-encoding of his views blowing up poor undergraduate brains, it's in a (possibly minor) propaganda coup for Ahmadinejad in the areas he cares about.

If the First Amendment really stands on such a puerile notion as that the expression of ideas can never hurt anyone anywhere and that "the best idea" will always win in all marketplaces, then the First Amendment, to borrow from Dickens, is an ass. I don't think it is. YOU don't even buy this silly premise -- "if you think Yale offering an evolution course predicated on intelligent design could hurt anyone or be unwise in any way whatsoever, you HATE THE FIRST AMENDMENT."

This is silly. I have trouble believing that you even believe this -- you're just spouting boilerplate First Amendment "free speech" rhetoric without thinking, I suspect.

Or for that matter other radical, anti-liberal ideologies.

Wendell Berry? Daniel Larison?

If the First Amendment really stands on such a puerile notion as that the expression of ideas can never hurt anyone anywhere and that "the best idea" will always win in all marketplaces, then the First Amendment, to borrow from Dickens, is an ass. I don't think it is. YOU don't even buy this silly premise -- "if you think Yale offering an evolution course predicated on intelligent design could hurt anyone or be unwise in any way whatsoever, you HATE THE FIRST AMENDMENT."

Actually, Marquis, I'd have no problem whatsoever if Yale offered a class on that subject. Though I would hope, that like with Ahmadinejad at Columbia, divergent views would be presented.

I certainly am not afraid that harm will come because the ID crackpots are disseminating their ideas.

Fascinating. So, if I were to suggest my local rabbi was being rather unwise, perhaps even hurtful, by offering an hour at the synagogue in which a holocaust denier talks, I'd be just some kind of fascist?

Hmm. So, what theories shouldn't be included in my Physics 101 course? I mean, no harm (say resource allocation or appearance of being idiots) could occur if we make way for the "gravity is PUSH not a PULL" theory by dropping optics, right?

One problem once you extend "no harm can come, no complaints should be lodged" theory this far is that in fact "speech" in many realistic senses is a limited resource. There are only so many talks at Columbia, so many courses a university will offer, so many lecture hours in a semester (believe me, from trying to cram the "good stuff" into classes in my scientific discipline I know this reality), etc. Giving platforms to some viewpoints is harmful -- not in some "my heavens, the Republic will fall!" sense but in a resource allocation sense. If you dilute the actual macro-evolution class with ID, you're wasting everyone's time, don't you think? Or do you support teaching ID in high schools, so long as other views get time too -- I mean, no harm can come, right?

Actually, there's a more general point. Ignore the specifics of speech, let's look at:

If, on the other hand, you think that disseminating Ahmadenijad's views is harmful, then you should be consistent and support the repeal of the First Amendment, because it must cause all sorts of harm by permitting the dissemination of dangerous ideas.

What a bizarre notion! If I think it would be _horrible_ if the state proposed to ban people from gossiping about their neighbors, and I even agreed that this should be codified in the Constitution, I would be suggesting that, in fact, I must be agreeing in principle that no harm can come from malicious gossip? I might (A) think "of course harm can come", and (B) actually criticize some people for malicious gossip, and (C) still not think the state should outlaw it. I mean, I'm no libertarian, but even I am libertarian enough (and student enough of Aquinas) to think that many things might be reprehensible, fairly subject to criticism and attack, and not matters for state power. Don't you think so Dilan? The bizarre statement above seems to suggest not.

Most laws (or lack thereof) cause some harm. Politics is the art of the possible. I actually have no pure-absolute belief in "Free Speech" (I think there are periods in history when the quashing of certain expression, though preferably not by death, only exile or jail, was reasonable and when it perhaps should have been exercised _more_.)

Fascinating. So, if I were to suggest my local rabbi was being rather unwise, perhaps even hurtful, by offering an hour at the synagogue in which a holocaust denier talks, I'd be just some kind of fascist?

No, you wouldn't. But if you asserted that putting a holocaust denier on, followed by a rebuttal, would cause some grave harm to society, you would be underestimating the power of our First Amendment.

Holocaust deniers get to speak all the time, yet their views don't seem to take hold. Perhaps Holmes was right.

What a bizarre notion! If I think it would be _horrible_ if the state proposed to ban people from gossiping about their neighbors, and I even agreed that this should be codified in the Constitution, I would be suggesting that, in fact, I must be agreeing in principle that no harm can come from malicious gossip?

No, our First Amendment isn't premised on the idea that a free trade in gossip is a social good. But it is premised on the idea that a free trade in ideas-- including lousy ones-- is.

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