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The Canon Wars

17 Sep 2007 04:38 pm

Rachel Donadio, on Allan Bloom:

Today it’s generally agreed that the multiculturalists won the canon wars. Reading lists were broadened to include more works by women and minority writers, and most scholars consider that a positive development. Yet 20 years later, there’s a more complicated sense of the costs and benefits of those transformations. Here, the lines aren’t drawn between right and left in the traditional political sense, but between those who defend the idea of a distinct body of knowledge and texts that students should master and those who focus more on modes of inquiry and interpretation.

It's this latter debate that's crucial to understanding what's wrong with the contemporary university. In a better world, the multiculturalists and the canonists should have been able to meet halfway - preserving the idea of a canon, while expanding it to include more works from outside the circle of Dead White Males. Such a compromise would have ended up cluttering syllabi with more politically-correct junk than a reactionary like myself might like, but it would have preserved the essential liberal-arts notion that there are great books, and that one of the missions of the university should be to expose its students to as many of them as possible.

This did happen to some extent: As Donadio writes, "In 1965, the authors most frequently assigned in English classes were Shakespeare, Milton, Chaucer, Dryden, Pope and T. S. Eliot, according to a survey by the National Association of Scholars ... In 1998, they were Shakespeare, Chaucer, Jane Austen, Milton, Virginia Woolf and Toni Morrison." Obviously, having Morrison and to a lesser extent Woolf in that group is somewhat depressing, but it wouldn't be all that objectionable if most students at top-flight colleges were being required to read this group of authors; a week wasted on Sula seems a small price to pay for a student body that's acquainted with Shakespeare's tragedies. The trouble is that they aren't. Instead of keeping requirements in place but compromising on their content, too many colleges - my alma mater included - rushed to embrace the "modes of inquiry" (or in Harvard-ese, "approaches to knowledge") view of education, and then breathed a sigh of relief that they'd set aside the messy debates over whether there's a Proust of the Papuans, while freeing their overspecialized young professors from the burdens of teaching survey courses. And that was how the canon wars ended - they made a desert, and called it peace.

Comments (243)

I'm a professor in the humanities at a large research university, and to some extent I agree with your lament at how culturally illiterate our graduates are. But Ross, tell me this: do you think teaching (what you take to be the) canon should be mandated from "on high" within universities, or alternately by the government? That is, how do you propose solving this?

"How do you propose solving this?"

Step 1: Intelligent professors should acknowledge that Toni Morrison's work is low-brow junk.

Step 2: Colleges and universities should issue an apology to all students forced to read Beloved as a part of their liberal arts curricula.

Excuse me. Toni Morrison's work is not "low-brow junk." It's middle-brow junk.

"Dead White Males" are the reason we have such concepts as "multiculturalism." We got our sense of open-minded free inquiry from Plato, Descartes, Hume et al (not the Papuans).

The solution to the problem is to stop confusing literary criticism with sociology.

I'm not sure what's so important about literary survey courses. Either you read well and widely and take great pleasure in it or you don't. End of story. The students who aren't interested in serious literature--encompassing everything from Chaucer and Petrarch to Pynchon, Beckett, Genet and, gasp, Toni Morrison--are not going to benefit (whatever that means) from being forced to read Lear and Henri V and writing an essay on moral error or something.

do you think teaching (what you take to be the) canon should be mandated from "on high" within universities or alternately by the government

I'm not suggesting that the gov should be involved, but I've always found it to be strange that no one complains that 18 year olds in the second half of their senior year in high school have their education mandated from on high, but the idea of doing the same for 18 year olds in the first half of their freshman year is anathema to large numbers of people.

What I'm struck by is just how mediocre the 1965 list is. I mean, does anyone really think Alexander Pope is one of the 5 greatest English language writers? Better than Twain? Joyce? Dickens? I would argue Austen and Woolf were better.

The problem with the old canon was that some of the inclusions were poor choices. Morrison is not a good replacement but surely you can't be arguing we should go back to the 1965 canon? Isn't a better alternative to look for new voices with some quality work rather than try and argue the modern relevance of Pope and Chaucer?

What a casually bigoted little post, Ross. The canon" is inherited from and perpetuated by a deeply sexist, racist, and unjust society, and as such doesn't deserve our unconsidered respect. You'd have to defend works you would preserve on their own terms, overcoming the obstacle of our racist and sexist past, rather than just dismissing non-canon works because our bigoted forebears wouldn't have written them.

What a casually bigoted little post, Ross. The canon" is inherited from and perpetuated by a deeply sexist, racist, and unjust society, and as such doesn't deserve our unconsidered respect. You'd have to defend works you would preserve on their own terms, overcoming the obstacle of our racist and sexist past, rather than just dismissing non-canon works because our bigoted forebears wouldn't have written them.

Toni Morrison? What's wrong with Toni Morrison? I loved 'Song of Solomon.'

I don't know that Chaucer is necessarily the standard of high literature. His masterwork combined some really compelling pieces (eg. the Knight's Tale) with some dirty stories that are far more lowbrow than anything Ms. Morrison ever wrote. Have you read 'The Miller's Tale' recently? Using Chaucer as the standard of the highbrow is really rather ridiculous.

And I don't even know who Dryden is. Who is Dryden?

While I believe in the idea of multiculturalism in theory, I've personally read almost no Asian, Latin-American or African literature, on the grounds that I would rather have a moderate aquaintance with one cultural tradition than a superficial acquaintance with several. This is not an argument about inherent superiority, but rather an argument about breadth vs. depth.

Btw, I think that remark wasn't originally 'Proust of the Papuans' rather 'Tolstoy of the Zulus', and I think the best rejoinder was made by the guy who said that the Zulus may not have a Tolstoy, but they probably do have a Homer. Being a pre-literate culture and all that.

Jane Austen seems like something of a win, at least.

I just received BA in English Studies in 2007 and I think you are being absolutely ridiculous. The vast majority of my curriculum consist of those Dead White Male texts precisely because what makes those books great is their utility in educating people. And I was educated in an English Studies department that is extremely post-modern.

I have no idea whether you think those books have some sort of inherent Kantian value but as far as I know a book's value is in what it does. Does it make us think, challenge our values, explore our boundaries of knowledge?

The idea that such narratives have some sort of intrinsic moral value is either incredibly banal or profoundly sophomoric.

z, the claim is that there is a principled claim that makes e.g., "Pride and Prejudice" canonical and (to take an example from my own education) Nadine Gordimer's "July's People" non-canonical. I myself quite like "July's People" but it's a truth universally acknowledged that Austen is the greater writer and the deeper mind. If you have to require one of these novels in a survey of the best that has been written and thought, you assign Austen. That's not casual bigotry, that's knowing what constitutes a great novel.

Yeah, the addition of Austen is definitely worthwhile.

You can't be culturally literate without a knowledge of Shakespeare, but Dryden, Pope, and Milton are not indispensable. I prefer Wallace Stevens to Eliot, and I don't think it has hurt me much. Dickens bores the crap out of me in the same way that Toni Morrison does. I think they're on the same level, and it is middle-brow, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I love "The Canterbury Tales," which I was (thankfully) forced to read in the original, and I'm sorry, Hector, but the "dirty stories" are some of the best parts.

Orwell, Twain and Yeats are in my pantheon, but then so is Stan Lee.

See, Ben A, that's the whole point. "A truth universally acknowledged" really means acknowledged within academia, a community dominated by white men. That's far from universal, and narrow-minded to pretend that it is. The fact that you would call it universal shows your blindness to the exclusivity of academia. Our ideas about what makes a "great" novel are shaped by our cultural prejudices, and only by forcing ourselves to read outside the canon can we hope to gain the perspective to evaluate the canon fairly.

Joseph writes: "I just received BA in English Studies in 2007 and I think you are being absolutely ridiculous. The vast majority of my curriculum consist of those Dead White Male texts precisely because what makes those books great is their utility in educating people. And I was educated in an English Studies department that is extremely post-modern."

I had essentially the same experience in a similar school and graduated in 1984. I'm just glad the degree was in "English" and not "English Studies."

Yuck.

z writes: "Our ideas about what makes a "great" novel are shaped by our cultural prejudices, and only by forcing ourselves to read outside the canon can we hope to gain the perspective to evaluate the canon fairly."

In high school I recommended Frank Herbert's "Dune" to an English teacher who passed it on to the department head - and the next year it was added on to the reading list for the junior AP English class.

I thought that was very open of them - and that it's a great book well worthy of inclusion.

argue the modern relevance of Pope and Chaucer

"Relevance" is a word generally used by shifty people who want to sell ya something.

I think Pope is great, and anyone serious about this stuff should read Hugh Kenner on why -- but he's not going to do much for even most lit majors, and his absence from the canon isn't a shame. Everyone should read Chaucer, geez.

Moe: I can't believe Dickens bores you. "Dune" is like "Tarzan" or Lovecraft -- it may be a story that has some serious power and deserves study, but the actual writing is pretty awful. Except I (who liked the novel) don't think Dune is on the same level of story. And, that said, it'd be a fine thing to make high school students read, in that they might actually like it, and it isn't pure junk.

Saying that it's "obviously ... depressing" that Woolf replaced, for example, Dryden in a list of authors might be taken by some as anti-feminist, but I think you're saying it because you're anti-modern. The word that is really depressing in your sentence is "obvious." Some people learned something from the whole disagreement about what to teach, but the people who think everything about it is "obvious," on either side, didn't learn beans.

Multiculturalism as presently constituted is not a threat to the cultural heritage of the liberal arts. The fact that the university is being reformed as a set of pre-professional schools and the students are all majoring in Communications rather than English Lit is. This cannot realistically be blamed on mean old French post-structuralists or tenured radicals.

TMoC writes: "Moe: I can't believe Dickens bores you. "Dune" is like "Tarzan" or Lovecraft -- it may be a story that has some serious power and deserves study, but the actual writing is pretty awful. Except I (who liked the novel) don't think Dune is on the same level of story. And, that said, it'd be a fine thing to make high school students read, in that they might actually like it, and it isn't pure junk."

No, it isn't. I don't think the writing is awful, though he's no Twain, but he's certainly much better than Ayn Rand. And I disagree about the story. It sure beats Tarzan and Lovecraft.

Dickens was often paid by the word and it shows. Melville's "Billy Budd" on its own blows away anything Dickens ever wrote.

Ben writes: "Saying that it's "obviously ... depressing" that Woolf replaced, for example, Dryden in a list of authors might be taken by some as anti-feminist, but I think you're saying it because you're anti-modern. The word that is really depressing in your sentence is "obvious.""

Agreed. And I hated "Mrs. Dalloway." "A Room Of One's Own," though, is a non-fiction gem.

Moe: I hope we all have better standards than "better than Ayn Rand" around here.

Lovecraft you might be right, I've never seen what's so Library of America about him myself -- but Tarzan struck something the same way Sherlock Holmes did, and will be around long after Herbert's totally forgotten, unless the Butlerian Jihad takes all our pasts with it. Maybe it isn't literature, but it's in prose and it's for the ages, whether we like it or Johnny W. or not.

Dickens is bloated, at times, but it's often delightful sprawl. He simply isn't doing what Melville is doing -- Dickens is a comic sentimentalist, Melville is not -- but Dickens has other registers, too. Give me the opening of _Bleak House_ over "Billy Budd" any day.

_To the Lighthouse_ is fine and dandy.

But yes, I'm afraid conservatives get too worked up about this, in a way, just as some liberals (and conservatives) get too worked about about evolution.

The schoolin' will leave most students so un-affected that it isn't really going to matter too much. And the ones who would care will read Dickens and (if they're really hungry) Proust and Austen and Toni Morrison and Cormac McCarthy and Milton and Pope and Poe and everyone else, as soon as they can, because if they are serious they will be reading other things that cause them to go "hmm, Saul Bellow makes sense of THIS book by talking about THAT book, so I'd best read THAT book too." I'm on the conservative side on the canon wars, I suppose. The real "battle" that mattered was over long before the radical takeover -- as far as I can tell, the grasp of Shakespeare, Homer, and the KJV Bible needed to grasp a huge fragment of allusion in English lit. hasn't been around for a while.

Joseph, have you read The Closing of the American Mind? Because Bloom's argument is precisely that we should read canonical works because they "make us think, challenge our values, explore our boundaries of knowledge." What he (and, I suspect, Ross) object to is the abandonment of that enterprise altogether because the idea that some books are great in that sense is just an artifact of cultural prejudice. By all means, the canon shouldn't be fixed for all time and people ought to debate what should be included like baseball fans debate who should be in the hall of fame. That debate is what a liberal arts college should be about.

Hrm, I guess _Dune_'s writing is more just boring than awful. It isn't embarrassing, but there's nothing in the prose to even notice.

Ahem.

Virginia Woolf is behind only James Joyce among 20th century novelists.

Morrison, like many novelists, wrote one great novel and a lot of middling ones. Sula is in the second tier of American novels, behind Moby Dick or Huck Finn but certainly in the top ten.

And, by the way, as a doctorate student at a top-five English program, easily 95% of what undergraduates read is by white males. Easily. This is, of course, not a way to correct some overestimation of nonwhite, nonmale writers, but a way to further marginalize them, under the guise of "battling back against multiculturalism."

And Dryden sucks.

Toni Morrison? What's wrong with Toni Morrison? I loved 'Song of Solomon.'

What's wrong with her, of course, is that she is black and a woman, so her writing can't possibly be actually good, and any acclaim it engenders is strictly the result of political correctness, according to people like Douthat. I mean it's literally impossible for him to give her work an actual fair accounting, because he's so committed to the narrative that anything by someone who's a woman or black or gay or at all out of the classic writer form must be the beneficiary of identity politics. And let me mince no words: the idea that someone can only be being praised because of political correctness is a flatly racist thing, no matter how you shake and dance.

I guarantee you that when Ross saw black students at his little college in Boston, he assumed they couldn't really be deserving of their admittance, and only were there thanks to affirmative action.

"And, by the way, as a doctorate student at a top-five English program..."

Not a doctoral student? Is this a form of post-modern English where one uses nouns in place of adjectives?

"I guarantee you that when Ross saw black students at his little college in Boston, he assumed they couldn't really be deserving of their admittance, and only were there thanks to affirmative action."

Wouldn't that be a fair assumption, given the relative paucity of blacks capable of achieving the average Harvard student's SAT score?

Virginia Woolf is behind only James Joyce among 20th century novelists.

Oh balderdash. I like Woolf and Joyce, but Proust beats both, hands down. That college classes aren't going to assign the whole shebang doesn't change this.

My claim is that people who really care about this are still going to read the canonical works. There _is_ a competition for attention, and no way around it: most of what's written recently isn't actually as good as the "best of the older stuff." And the recent additions to the canon are more iffy, in general, and may be grinding someone's axe. But -- they're recent, and need to be discussed and read by somebody -- Samuel Johnson read a lot of things in his day that we don't have to bother with because he and his fellows did. But there's too much material, in general. It'd be nice if college could create more time to read for us all, but it can't.

The idea of a native English speaker majoring in English in college would probably have seemed like something of a bad joke to most of the dead white males.

Ross seems to think Harvard and other colleges fail because multiculturalism and relativism have produced an educational program that lacks rigor.

For the many students who study math, science, and engineering, being forced to read any canon, multicultural or not, is a distraction from their intended studies. This is true to a certain extent for some of the social sciences such as economics and political science, as well. (I know, I know run-on sentence, but how well can you use eigenvectors?)

From my own experience, literature survey courses at my university were abolished because they were an imposition of humanities on student bodies that increasingly desired specialized courses and technical education that more easily translated into a career after graduation. We can't all be film critics and bloggers.

Amongst my peers, English courses were only taken as forced electives or to lift GPA. Classes in abstract algebra or inorganic chemistry were quite rigorous, and I am sure they would reflect just as high standards as those found in 1964, the time of TS Eliot, or the education system described in The Education of Henry Adams .

Obviously, having Morrison and to a lesser extent Woolf in that group is somewhat depressing, but it wouldn't be all that objectionable if most students at top-flight colleges were being required to read this group of authors; a week wasted on Sula seems a small price to pay for a student body that's acquainted with Shakespeare's tragedies.

The real implications of such a compromise would be a coalition between Dead White Men and Living Women of Color against Living White Men. Political relevance, not being allowed to apply to old works, would completely overwhelm literary merit in discussions of modern works.

I suppose the "modes of inquiry" view is a coalition of LWC and LWM against DWM.

Because Bloom's argument is precisely that we should read canonical works because they "make us think, challenge our values, explore our boundaries of knowledge."

Different works make different people think about different stuff.

They should replace Morrison and Woolf with this shitty blog.

Moe,

'Billy Budd' was really more of an extended short story than a novel, wouldn't you say? It basically is about a couple of characters and one or two main themes. Surely 'A Tale of Two Cities' has a broader scope as well as a broader range of emotional power than 'Billy Budd', as good as Billy Budd is.

I was a biology major, so my literary tastes are strictly those of a reader-for-fun. With that said, how do you really evaluate the worth of a literary work? Is it in terms of literary craftsmanship, emotional power, or is in terms of the ideas presented, and how much one believes in them? For example, if I had to choose whether to save for posterity the works of Shakespeare or the poems of William Blake, I would probably choose Blake, even though I know Shakespeare was much the better literary craftsman. Blake may have been a fairly second-rate poet, but the power of his vision (literally; he was someone who claimed to have had divine revelations throughout his life), and what I see as the essential truth of that vision, is something that I don't think I could find in Shakespeare.

On a similar note, whether or not you like Toni Morrison's style, she was clearly saying something that speaks to vast numbers of people- particularly, I would imagine, to young African American people questioning their heritage, although not being African-American i can't realy speak to that.

I wonder what the academic conservatives think about dead white males of a left-wing political persuasion, like Graham Greene? Greene is another writer that I would certainly take to a desert island.

"freeing their overspecialized young professors from the burdens of teaching survey courses."

Yes, this is the real story here, not necessarily the "who's in, who's out?" approach to English Department reading lists. Somewhere around about 1990, professors at elite universities simply lost the will to teach survey classes of any kind. They are either made optional, scrapped altogether or farmed out to adjuncts. A lot of it is laziness pure and simple.

Classes in abstract algebra or inorganic chemistry were quite rigorous, and I am sure they would reflect just as high standards as those found in 1964, the time of TS Eliot, or the education system described in The Education of Henry Adams .

Well, this is true of the upper-level classes at decent schools, in technical fields. The lower level math classes, even at decent second-tier places, unfortunately, are rather dumbed down because _we have lots more people taking the classes now_. A good student in a technical field often will strike a strange curve where the first two classes of the calculus sequence, at least, are curved and paced such that they become trivial to anyone actually suited for calculus. Then at some point, perhaps differential equations, the classes will be geared for those who someone is willing to let graduate with, say, an engineering degree -- and the difficulty will suddenly increase massively. This has roughly nothing to do with the original post, though.

Graham Greene? A fine writer, though his politics were sometimes absurd -- but if you only have room for one jaundiced English Catholic, I'd go for Waugh. Not because he's more right-wing, but because he wrote better novels.

TMoC writes: "Hrm, I guess _Dune_'s writing is more just boring than awful. It isn't embarrassing, but there's nothing in the prose to even notice."

I'm guessing you prefer more flowery prose. It's been a long time since I've read "Dune," and I'm not going to dig it out, but I recall it being better than that - and the enthusiastic reception it was given by others I respected did nothing to make me think otherwise. But if you're a Dickens fan I suppose you need constant adjectival fireworks and endless rhetorical flourishes to be impressed.

"Oh balderdash. I like Woolf and Joyce, but Proust beats both, hands down."

I don't read any non-English writers in their native tongue, and I'm not sure how to assess non-English novelists fully. I know Joyce has influenced Marquez and Grass and Pynchon and Bellow and Coover and nearly every short story writer. I have no idea who Proust has influenced. Perhaps the same list.

I think Pynchon will be as highly regarded 50 years from now as any other 20th century writer is - and may be at the top of the heap. Kesey, Fitzgerald, Hemingway will all have a place at the table.

It's kind of silly to pretend there are objective standards here.

Survey courses have probably always been fairly poorly taught. I still claim that given the relative unimportance of _university_ education to the intelligent men of most recent periods of history, up until our age, the disappearance of the canon is as much about an explosion of knowledge of interesting material to read rather than the success of some conspiracy headed by Toni Morrison.

Hector writes: "I was a biology major, so my literary tastes are strictly those of a reader-for-fun. With that said, how do you really evaluate the worth of a literary work? Is it in terms of literary craftsmanship, emotional power, or is in terms of the ideas presented, and how much one believes in them? For example, if I had to choose whether to save for posterity the works of Shakespeare or the poems of William Blake, I would probably choose Blake, even though I know Shakespeare was much the better literary craftsman. Blake may have been a fairly second-rate poet, but the power of his vision (literally; he was someone who claimed to have had divine revelations throughout his life), and what I see as the essential truth of that vision, is something that I don't think I could find in Shakespeare."

I'd preserve the works of Philip K. Dick over those of Chesterton, Hector, so I see what you're saying. But I happen to think Dick was (in his better moments) twice the artist Chesterton was. Dick, by the way, also thought he had divine revelations. I think he was sort of nuts in that regard, but it doesn't impede my appreciation of his great works.

I'd pick Shakespeare over Blake, but I do admire Blake very much.

Speaking of Jesus-driven mad geniuses, do you know Gerard Manley Hopkins? If not, you need to.

TMoC writes: "Graham Greene? A fine writer, though his politics were sometimes absurd -- but if you only have room for one jaundiced English Catholic, I'd go for Waugh. Not because he's more right-wing, but because he wrote better novels."

Like hell. You're letting your political bias creep into your analysis. I'm quoting from memory here - a professor wrote about a section of my essay that dealt with Waugh - "You're at a bit of a loss with Waugh here, as are we all." Waugh's world view was a diluted puddle of piss.

Marquis:

If you read Ross's post, it is not about what should be considered canon, but the fact that canon (even a multiculturalism compromised canon) is no longer required for students. He thought it was due to the canon wars. I thought it was about a general change in the focus of modern universities.

This whole debate has been very interesting, but not really about the main subject of Ross's post.

Sorry also, I mentioned The Education of Henry Adams and TS Eliot, because Ross linked to his book which was about the degeneration of Harvard's education system.

I guess I meant deterioration.

I'll shut up now.

The end of the Freshman "Great Books" canon had very little to do with political correctness. As "Space Monkey" pointed out, this change stems from the declining importance of humanities to the modern university.

Generally speaking, the people who pushed against "Great Books" requirements were the science and engineering departments. As research dollars flowed into postwar university campuses, the relative influence of liberal arts departments went into a steep decline. This fundamental shift in the perceived purpose of a university education played a huge role in the demise of mandatory literature survey classes. With each passing year it became more and more difficult for universities to justify teaching Chaucer and Pope instead of allowing students to choose coursework that has more relevance to the world they actually live in.

I can't speak to the environment at Harvard. But in my experiences, out in Big Ten country, left-leaning Professors were just as dismayed as conservatives about the fact that many students are no longer required to read anything.

The level of vitriol directed at Toni Morrison here is ridiculous. Beloved wasn't really my cup of tea, but neither was The Sound and the Fury. It's hardly unreasonable for an American literature course to be built around the assumption that a proper understanding of American culture requires us to understand both Faulkner's perspective and Morrison's, and to appreciate both the highbrow traditions that influenced Faulkner and the folk narratives that influenced Morrision.

I don't have much patience for culture war zealots who think either one of those perspectives should "obviously" be dismissed because it doesn't comport with their own sense of what literature should be.

Ross, I agree with most of what you say, but think you aim too low. You are ready to accept a low-grade twat like Toni Morrison if - somehow - students were to be serious about their Shakespeare. That seems psychologically and morally unrealistic. To jumble together things so low and high merely creates, as you put it, a desert. And by what politically craven stretch does a mediocre American novelist like Morrison qualify as 'multicultural'? Just cos' she's got a black face? That's just racism.


The point is not merely to grudgingly accept multiculturalism as an unavoidable necessity but rather to champion it as an imperative and opportunity, while also - and this is key - hugely raising the entry standards. Throw out all-American nobodies like Morrison and bring in some of the genuine first rank masterpieces from outside of the western canon. They do exist you know! Think about the challenge and the sheer fantastic kick from reading Homer alongside the Ramayana, or Shakespeare alongside the dramatic masterpieces of Kalidasa. You bring them in not as a grudging concession to the darkies but because they're just so damn good! Yeah baby! Let’s go!

brm writes: "Ross, I agree with most of what you say, but think you aim too low. You are ready to accept a low-grade twat like Toni Morrison if - somehow - students were to be serious about their Shakespeare. That seems psychologically and morally unrealistic. To jumble together things so low and high merely creates, as you put it, a desert. And by what politically craven stretch does a mediocre American novelist like Morrison qualify as 'multicultural'? Just cos' she's got a black face? That's just racism."

You're in the wrong place, brm. The Klan meeting you're looking for is over at freerepublic.com. Have a blast.

I'm open to arguments that there's something special about Shakespeare; as another Bloom likes to say at great length, he really is sort of a god in literature. But honestly, Chaucer? I mean, I like the Canterbury Tales. But it's just strange to think that they are inherently Greater Literature than Morrison or O'Connor or Hurston or plenty of other multi-culti stuff. Like, failure of taste strange. Unless you very explicitly want to promote the idea of a Great Tradition, over and above any belief about the literary superiority of the people within it. Which, I guess maybe you do?

Poor Ross. He got an Ivy League education, a cushy job writing for a fancy magazine, and yet he's still The Victim here, a casualty of the Culture War, wherein someone made him read a book written by someone a little different from himself. People excluded for centuries are given a little attention, and suddenly the culture is rendered "a desert".

The search for a smart, reasonable conservative continues.....

If they brought back the canon, would there be an increase in the number of Harvard graduates with the rigorous education required to become a political pundit?

The "great books" (on which there is by no means a consensus) are themselves only the beginning. The history, politics, philosophy and sociology that goes with them, and the eventual linkages between the books in the Western canon is what makes them so Great. Although only a fool would deny themselves the rich bounty of world literature, there simply isn't a tradition of comprable caliber anywhere outside the West.

While I subscribe to the view oulined above, I in no way think that the way to measure if our children is learnin' is to look up their reading lists. The whole exercise of taxing young minds with the work seems both wrong-headed and sadistic. (I remember seeing "The Brothers Karamazov" on a public school's tenth-grade reading list--imagine the kids' delight!)

An interesting thread, but most people are missing Ross' main point. They are instead rehashing the secondary point of just which books deserve a place in the cannon. Mind you, I think that Ross is wrong, mostly, but only LaFollette Progressive has really addressed his point head on (and he makes the same points that I would have, so I won't repeat them).

Would I prefer a world where most young people, as part of their education, were exposed to, and developed a love of, "great books," however defined? Yes, in the abstract. But (1) college kids who go to college for primarily vocational reasons (i.e., most of them), and who don't have a pre-existing love of literature, aren't going to derive mush benefit from being exposed to the "great Books;" (2) college kids who are into that sort of thing have plenty of opportunities, both in the classroom and outside it, to reading the great books (again, however defined); (3) the value of exposure to such works, on a purely utilitarian/society level, is significantly overblown.

Like hell. You're letting your political bias creep into your analysis. I'm quoting from memory here - a professor wrote about a section of my essay that dealt with Waugh - "You're at a bit of a loss with Waugh here, as are we all." Waugh's world view was a diluted puddle of piss.

I'm decidedly left of center, albeit with a libertarian bent, but I think Waugh is great. So is Greene; really the fault of TMoC's post is the absurd notion of limiting oneself to a single jaundiced English Catholic.

Moe and Marquis,

I think Graham Greene's style was quite his own; not all 'jaundiced english Catholics' are the same.

Being quite left-wing in politics myself, I agree with most of Graham Greene's politics. I would probably think Waugh's world view was rather absurd, but that doesn't in itself make him not worth reading. Jorge Luis Borges, whose brand of aristocratic conservatism makes me want to throw up, and who skated close to treason and fascism by openly endorsing Videla's coup of 1976 ("it's better to be ruled by gentlemen than by pimps") is also one of my favorite writers, another one who I would certainly take to a desert island. Have you read any Borges, Moe?

Philip K. Dick...I've heard good things about him, both in terms of his writing and his speculative theological ideas, I should check him out. Chesterton obviously had his limitations, and I disagree with his worldview in many particulars, but I also think he had some good insights, and was a damn good writer.

Waugh's world view was a diluted puddle of piss.

So? Oh, Waugh was a nasty man, no doubt about it. But what's that to do with literature?

Look, I'm not knocking Greene at all -- one of his short stories, "Under the Garden," is one of the most affecting and potent things I've ever read, and even "entertainments" like _Travels with my Aunt_ are worth reading. I think it's quite possible he was a better human being than Waugh (hard contest -- both seem to have been high order asses in many ways). Anyone who cares should read _both_ of them. And, no, I don't think the styles are very similar. I just think that Waugh was better at constructing novels. Greene is very powerful in _The Power and the Glory_ or _The Heart of the Matter_, but the artistry seems to me to be of a lesser order than Waugh in _A Handful of Dust_, _Vile Bodies_, _Decline and Fall_, or _Put Out More Flags_.

I don't see how anyone thinks Dick could _write sentences well_ in general, but he's worth checking out because he manages to be great in spite of this. The ideas and the choice of names for things and images are completely his own, irreplaceable. _Ubik_ and _The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch_ are spectacular and unique.

Hopkins is good. I love Chesterton, and sometimes he was inspired, but he was too hurried and sloppy and unwilling to edit to be a great literary stylist.

But Great Books programs aren't necessarily meant to tell you which authors are Important, but to pass along the understanding that every discipline has an intellectual history, and that authors play off one another's prior research. (Basing this on Yale Directed Studies; don't know about elsewhere.)

In science survey classes you're introduced to first principles of the discipline, and then you break them down. A "Great Books" program means to do the same thing deep down: Introduce students to first principles of, say, political philosophy, survey how others break them down, and then hope the students will eventually pick up from reading others how to do it on their own. The content of the syllabus matters a lot less than its coherence -- how do the themes of the chosen texts all tie together? How do they refer to one another?

But I think undergrad STEM (science, tech, engineering, math) programs could do more to push future researchers to approach the sciences the same way. If designed for specific disciplines (say, one semester survey of history of molecular bio) then it wouldn't necessarily detract from publishing research.

Any reading list big enough to give students a background in the western literary tradition would be far too big for one class, or even for all of college. It's a life-long project, ideally, and not all as solitary reading either. I don't get much out of reading Shakespeare silently, for example, but I love to see it performed.

A better project for college is to get across the notion that there IS a western literary tradition. One aspect of this actually is about incorporating folk references into high-brow art. That idea wasn't invented in 1970, and it certainly occurred to a lot of white males down through the ages. I have no problem with discussing it as one of those things western literature does.

The problem I have is with the assumption that anything written by white males is automatically a reflection of the social power structure. That's silly. It is true that white men (rich ones, anyway) have had a lot of powerful positions in society, but saying that all the kings of England have been white is not the same as saying that all white people have been kings of England. Lots of white men have taken their shots at power structures, and ignoring them (or mischaracterizing their work) leads people to a very strange idea of how ideas developed over time.

TMoC again: "I don't see how anyone thinks Dick could _write sentences well_ in general, but he's worth checking out because he manages to be great in spite of this. The ideas and the choice of names for things and images are completely his own, irreplaceable. _Ubik_ and _The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch_ are spectacular and unique."

This "well written sentences" fetish of yours is hard to take seriously. It amounts to ntohing more than personal taste.

Dick's best work is "A Scanner Darkly." I haven't bothered to parse it sentence by sentence yet, and I don't think I'll be doing so anytime soon.

How about John le Carre? "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold" is tremendous. His politics have been exposed as quite leftward now that the Cold War is over, but he is definitely one of the best out there. (Perhaps he doesn't belong in the "canon," I don't know. I'm just enjoying this thread with its mulitiplicity of recommended writers.)

We're mostly into matters of taste here. I love Dickens, but it usually takes me a few chapters to get rolling on any given novel. I sometimes have to remind myself to slow down and enjoy. I started school in the mid-'80s and drifted away. I went back to get my degree a few years ago, and found that, while there were a few changes (colonial literature is apparently big now), the reading lists are still dominated by dead white men. My last two classes were a Joyce seminar (in which we also read a great deal of Ibsen) and a 20th century American lit class in which we managed to read both DWM (Crane, Hemingway, WC Williams, etc.) and (gasp) Toni Morrison. Literary reputations change, the canon changes, and it will ever be so. I find it hard to believe that the non-specialist actually read Dryden 40 years ago, and I don't really think that not reading him is much of a loss to anyone who isn't primarily interested in Restoration/18th century poetry.

Re: With each passing year it became more and more difficult for universities to justify teaching Chaucer and Pope instead of allowing students to choose coursework that has more relevance to the world they actually live in.

I'm not sure I would agree with this. There should be plenty of room in a freshman or sophomore's schedule for classes outside their major. For one thing, in their first year or two they are taking basic level courses in that major and cannot take higher level courses in the major until the intro classes are completed.

I notice more than one person questioning the (unquestionable) greatness of Geoffrey Chaucer. People of that sort are exactly why we need to keep teaching an established canon of great works. Greatness says nothing in particular about your personal tastes, but many things about how past writers shaped the language, changed the art of story-telling, and impacted the public imagination as well as that of future writers. Where Chaucer is concerned none of that is open to subjective dispute. Judging Chaucer by modern literary norms ("some of it is low-brow!") is risible and ignorant. People who appear to have decided literary criticism is about "what I like" are only hostages of their own limited worldviews and will likely never understand much of great literature. Which is fine - just don't pretend you have something to say about what should be taught to people who would care to appreciate it. (Notice that "appreciate" and "like" don't mean the same thing, and the former is what teaching literature sets about instilling.) If it weren't for Chaucer, we'd have a different English literature today. So shut up already. You want to understand English lit, you read Chaucer, like him or not.

"Multiculturalism," otoh, caters to one's personal tastes by turning students over to an indiscriminate & haphazard smorgasbord of writers. This will teach us a lot about what we're predisposed to like, but less and less about literature itself.

Great writers withstand the test of time, and that is essentially all that should be required of them. Calling them back under review because of some confused, anachronistic ideas about historical "sexism" or "racism" is misguided and arrogant. Nothing you can say about their personal faults, or the faults of their time viewed through the prism of today, can take away from what made them great writers in the first place.

This, posted by some brazen fool called "z", is what I mean:

The canon" is inherited from and perpetuated by a deeply sexist, racist, and unjust society, and as such doesn't deserve our unconsidered respect. You'd have to defend works you would preserve on their own terms, overcoming the obstacle of our racist and sexist past, rather than just dismissing non-canon works because our bigoted forebears wouldn't have written them.

First, that isn't anywhere near what Ross or anybody else is suggesting. Second, notice the unbelievably arrogant tone. Third, the post contradicts itself in the same breath by demanding that works be judged "on their own terms" while decrying the "bigoted" society that has brought them forth and preserved them. Which itself is bigoted! And betrays an utter lack of understanding of how a literary canon, not to mention a society, evolves, and handily ignores the fact that the poster's own sense of (self)righteousness has been inherited from the exact same source, indeed many of the same thinkers who made invaluable contributions to this supposedly "racist, sexist and unjust" canon. (Jane Austen was sexist??) What if Shakespeare had adopted this ridiculous, pompous attitude about his place and role in literature before he set to work?

Moe -- it's not a fetish, it's simply one aspect of a work's quality. It's not the only one. I think Dick is great. I think John Updike writes supremely beautiful sentences, at least in much of his work, but (except for his literary criticism, which is often good) generally is a waste of time -- too much polish on a few obsessive themes.

That said, it is important. I don't see how you can consider Hopkins or most 20th century poets interesting without granting that the very particular way words are used is as important as the ideas under the writing. It doesn't have to be "fancy" and "loads of adjectives" -- _The Great Gatsby_ or Hemingway when he wasn't diving into self-parody are _high quality writing_ but not a feast of descriptive baggage, in general. The difference is that I don't think Dick cared how a sentence worked, ever -- a sentence, for him (or for Herbert) is a device to convey a narrative or conceptual content, little more in most cases. Other writers tend to the details of words and syntax and arrangements, to control aesthetic effects. Writers who can do both the fine-grained work and have something to say with it are generally, I think, better than ones who can only manage one side or the other. That's all. I think that's objectively true, and it becomes clear if you consider poetry. Is "prose quality" of this sort the only important thing? Nah, of course not. But it is a thing that matters, and should be part of an education in English literature.

This helter-skelter discussion of favorite books is not off the point of Douthat's essay -- it illustrates just what was so lame about his premise. Taste is relative. And conditioned by gender, culture, income and all of that stuff. Those of you who feel free to dismiss Toni Morrison are saying more about yourself than you are about Morrison's work (and I don't mean that in a good way).

The canon idea is nothing more that a bunch of wealthy white men getting together to decide which books by other wealthy white men should be read to complete the education of young wealthy white men in college. The fact that right-wing folks cling romantically to the canon idea strikes me as nothing more than a yearning for a return for the days before all those women and people of color came and ruined the party.

Bill,
I agree with much of what you said in your comment (especially to 'z'), but I take issue with this:
"You want to understand English lit, you read Chaucer, like him or not."
I did read Chaucer in high school, and remember not a thing. I honestly don't think it helped me understand English lit, and I don't think it would help me if I were to read him again. I feel the same way about Beowulf, the honorable Bede, etc. Such works are worth reading for a historical grounding in how English became the language it has become, but they are not essential for understanding English literature on a broad scale. (Shakespeare and Milton certainly are essential.)

I did read Chaucer in high school, and remember not a thing. I honestly don't think it helped me understand English lit, and I don't think it would help me if I were to read him again. I feel the same way about Beowulf, the honorable Bede, etc. Such works are worth reading for a historical grounding in how English became the language it has become, but they are not essential for understanding English literature on a broad scale.

I regret to inform you that you are mistaken. Precisely for understanding English lit "on a broad scale." Sometimes it just takes the right teacher.

(Shakespeare and Milton certainly are essential.)

One wonders what inspired you to draw the line there and not before. Chaucer is our Dante.

It's important to remember that this argument is a lot older than the 60s.

Jonathan Swift wrote (satirically of course) about this very topic in the 18th Century with his "Battle of the Books" -- at the time the debate was over whether to include this "new radical" English authors like Pope and Dryden and Shakespeare (and oh my good Chaucer is just a bunch of sex and farting jokes!) over the "canon" of that time: Classical Greek and Roman works.

Interestingly, we still read Ovid and Homer (although not in the original languages, granted), and have successfully added those "radical" English writers (including Swift!) without harm.

I suspect the canon will absorb plenty more before it reaches "saturation."

I have a different take on this at my blog: http://incertus.blogspot.com/2007/09/sunday-times-book-review-updates-us-on.html

Chaucer is our Dante? Hardly.
The King James Version of the Bible, that is the source from which our language and our literature has sprung. (Sorry to sound verbose.)

From Sophie Brown: "The canon idea is nothing more that a bunch of wealthy white men getting together to decide which books by other wealthy white men should be read to complete the education of young wealthy white men in college. The fact that right-wing folks cling romantically to the canon idea strikes me as nothing more than a yearning for a return for the days before all those women and people of color came and ruined the party."

And Beethoven was black.

dear response,

I am afraid your biting wit escapes me. Are you saying that wealthy white men also have the monopoly on producing beautiful music? I guess that would be consistent with the canonical world view. It is also sadly limited and incredibly wrong.

Chaucer is our Dante? Hardly. The King James Version of the Bible, that is the source from which our language and our literature has sprung. (Sorry to sound verbose.)

The King James Bible doesn't even predate Shakespeare.

TMoC responds: "Moe -- it's not a fetish, it's simply one aspect of a work's quality. It's not the only one. I think Dick is great. I think John Updike writes supremely beautiful sentences, at least in much of his work, but (except for his literary criticism, which is often good) generally is a waste of time -- too much polish on a few obsessive themes.

That said, it is important. I don't see how you can consider Hopkins or most 20th century poets interesting without granting that the very particular way words are used is as important as the ideas under the writing. It doesn't have to be "fancy" and "loads of adjectives" -- _The Great Gatsby_ or Hemingway when he wasn't diving into self-parody are _high quality writing_ but not a feast of descriptive baggage, in general. The difference is that I don't think Dick cared how a sentence worked, ever -- a sentence, for him (or for Herbert) is a device to convey a narrative or conceptual content, little more in most cases. Other writers tend to the details of words and syntax and arrangements, to control aesthetic effects. Writers who can do both the fine-grained work and have something to say with it are generally, I think, better than ones who can only manage one side or the other. That's all. I think that's objectively true, and it becomes clear if you consider poetry. Is "prose quality" of this sort the only important thing? Nah, of course not. But it is a thing that matters, and should be part of an education in English literature."

Of course it matters, but I think you have a very limited appreciation for what constitutes "good sentence writing." If you don't think "Gatsby" is beautifully written I suggest you're, uh, "tone-blind."

Hopkins is one of the marvels of modern poetry in that his spectacular use of language makes up for his "few obsessive themes," as you note with Updike. This doesn't make him a better poet than Wallace Stevens, though.

I find this "wealthy white men" bit a little annoying. I guess by comparison to a dirt farmer or something most major figures of the canon were doing ok, but Shakespeare and Samuel Johnson weren't tycoons. Guess: Toni Morrison has more wealth by at least a few measures than a number of the "rich white guys."

Sophie Brown ingeniously opines:

The canon idea is nothing more that a bunch of wealthy white men getting together to decide which books by other wealthy white men should be read to complete the education of young wealthy white men in college.

Congratulations, Sophie, on piercing through the mists of time to bring everybody up to speed on which subset of the human species happened to author much of our past literature. Who knows, maybe you'll even find that in the Muslim world, the canonical authors are entirely wealthy brown men. We being Westerners, and hence largely white, could only expect to receive whatever our historically best-educated (historically, the wealthy! *gasp*) handed down to us -- tragically limited as they all no doubt were by the wealthy white world imprisoning them.

chaucerecchh writes: "I did read Chaucer in high school, and remember not a thing. I honestly don't think it helped me understand English lit, and I don't think it would help me if I were to read him again. I feel the same way about Beowulf, the honorable Bede, etc. Such works are worth reading for a historical grounding in how English became the language it has become, but they are not essential for understanding English literature on a broad scale. (Shakespeare and Milton certainly are essential.)"

It's "the venerable Bede," damnit, and you're right in his case. But Chaucer kicks Milton's ass every day of the week.

I was using _Gatsby_ as an example of beautifully written prose, Moe -- that, and good Hemingway. Neither is awash in adjectives, both are fine-grained beautiful prose.