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The Canon Wars

17 Sep 2007 04:38 pm

Rachel Donadio, on Allan Bloom:

Today it’s generally agreed that the multiculturalists won the canon wars. Reading lists were broadened to include more works by women and minority writers, and most scholars consider that a positive development. Yet 20 years later, there’s a more complicated sense of the costs and benefits of those transformations. Here, the lines aren’t drawn between right and left in the traditional political sense, but between those who defend the idea of a distinct body of knowledge and texts that students should master and those who focus more on modes of inquiry and interpretation.

It's this latter debate that's crucial to understanding what's wrong with the contemporary university. In a better world, the multiculturalists and the canonists should have been able to meet halfway - preserving the idea of a canon, while expanding it to include more works from outside the circle of Dead White Males. Such a compromise would have ended up cluttering syllabi with more politically-correct junk than a reactionary like myself might like, but it would have preserved the essential liberal-arts notion that there are great books, and that one of the missions of the university should be to expose its students to as many of them as possible.

This did happen to some extent: As Donadio writes, "In 1965, the authors most frequently assigned in English classes were Shakespeare, Milton, Chaucer, Dryden, Pope and T. S. Eliot, according to a survey by the National Association of Scholars ... In 1998, they were Shakespeare, Chaucer, Jane Austen, Milton, Virginia Woolf and Toni Morrison." Obviously, having Morrison and to a lesser extent Woolf in that group is somewhat depressing, but it wouldn't be all that objectionable if most students at top-flight colleges were being required to read this group of authors; a week wasted on Sula seems a small price to pay for a student body that's acquainted with Shakespeare's tragedies. The trouble is that they aren't. Instead of keeping requirements in place but compromising on their content, too many colleges - my alma mater included - rushed to embrace the "modes of inquiry" (or in Harvard-ese, "approaches to knowledge") view of education, and then breathed a sigh of relief that they'd set aside the messy debates over whether there's a Proust of the Papuans, while freeing their overspecialized young professors from the burdens of teaching survey courses. And that was how the canon wars ended - they made a desert, and called it peace.

Comments (243)

I'm a professor in the humanities at a large research university, and to some extent I agree with your lament at how culturally illiterate our graduates are. But Ross, tell me this: do you think teaching (what you take to be the) canon should be mandated from "on high" within universities, or alternately by the government? That is, how do you propose solving this?

"How do you propose solving this?"

Step 1: Intelligent professors should acknowledge that Toni Morrison's work is low-brow junk.

Step 2: Colleges and universities should issue an apology to all students forced to read Beloved as a part of their liberal arts curricula.

Excuse me. Toni Morrison's work is not "low-brow junk." It's middle-brow junk.

"Dead White Males" are the reason we have such concepts as "multiculturalism." We got our sense of open-minded free inquiry from Plato, Descartes, Hume et al (not the Papuans).

The solution to the problem is to stop confusing literary criticism with sociology.

I'm not sure what's so important about literary survey courses. Either you read well and widely and take great pleasure in it or you don't. End of story. The students who aren't interested in serious literature--encompassing everything from Chaucer and Petrarch to Pynchon, Beckett, Genet and, gasp, Toni Morrison--are not going to benefit (whatever that means) from being forced to read Lear and Henri V and writing an essay on moral error or something.

do you think teaching (what you take to be the) canon should be mandated from "on high" within universities or alternately by the government

I'm not suggesting that the gov should be involved, but I've always found it to be strange that no one complains that 18 year olds in the second half of their senior year in high school have their education mandated from on high, but the idea of doing the same for 18 year olds in the first half of their freshman year is anathema to large numbers of people.

What I'm struck by is just how mediocre the 1965 list is. I mean, does anyone really think Alexander Pope is one of the 5 greatest English language writers? Better than Twain? Joyce? Dickens? I would argue Austen and Woolf were better.

The problem with the old canon was that some of the inclusions were poor choices. Morrison is not a good replacement but surely you can't be arguing we should go back to the 1965 canon? Isn't a better alternative to look for new voices with some quality work rather than try and argue the modern relevance of Pope and Chaucer?

What a casually bigoted little post, Ross. The canon" is inherited from and perpetuated by a deeply sexist, racist, and unjust society, and as such doesn't deserve our unconsidered respect. You'd have to defend works you would preserve on their own terms, overcoming the obstacle of our racist and sexist past, rather than just dismissing non-canon works because our bigoted forebears wouldn't have written them.

What a casually bigoted little post, Ross. The canon" is inherited from and perpetuated by a deeply sexist, racist, and unjust society, and as such doesn't deserve our unconsidered respect. You'd have to defend works you would preserve on their own terms, overcoming the obstacle of our racist and sexist past, rather than just dismissing non-canon works because our bigoted forebears wouldn't have written them.

Toni Morrison? What's wrong with Toni Morrison? I loved 'Song of Solomon.'

I don't know that Chaucer is necessarily the standard of high literature. His masterwork combined some really compelling pieces (eg. the Knight's Tale) with some dirty stories that are far more lowbrow than anything Ms. Morrison ever wrote. Have you read 'The Miller's Tale' recently? Using Chaucer as the standard of the highbrow is really rather ridiculous.

And I don't even know who Dryden is. Who is Dryden?

While I believe in the idea of multiculturalism in theory, I've personally read almost no Asian, Latin-American or African literature, on the grounds that I would rather have a moderate aquaintance with one cultural tradition than a superficial acquaintance with several. This is not an argument about inherent superiority, but rather an argument about breadth vs. depth.

Btw, I think that remark wasn't originally 'Proust of the Papuans' rather 'Tolstoy of the Zulus', and I think the best rejoinder was made by the guy who said that the Zulus may not have a Tolstoy, but they probably do have a Homer. Being a pre-literate culture and all that.

Jane Austen seems like something of a win, at least.

I just received BA in English Studies in 2007 and I think you are being absolutely ridiculous. The vast majority of my curriculum consist of those Dead White Male texts precisely because what makes those books great is their utility in educating people. And I was educated in an English Studies department that is extremely post-modern.

I have no idea whether you think those books have some sort of inherent Kantian value but as far as I know a book's value is in what it does. Does it make us think, challenge our values, explore our boundaries of knowledge?

The idea that such narratives have some sort of intrinsic moral value is either incredibly banal or profoundly sophomoric.

z, the claim is that there is a principled claim that makes e.g., "Pride and Prejudice" canonical and (to take an example from my own education) Nadine Gordimer's "July's People" non-canonical. I myself quite like "July's People" but it's a truth universally acknowledged that Austen is the greater writer and the deeper mind. If you have to require one of these novels in a survey of the best that has been written and thought, you assign Austen. That's not casual bigotry, that's knowing what constitutes a great novel.

Yeah, the addition of Austen is definitely worthwhile.

You can't be culturally literate without a knowledge of Shakespeare, but Dryden, Pope, and Milton are not indispensable. I prefer Wallace Stevens to Eliot, and I don't think it has hurt me much. Dickens bores the crap out of me in the same way that Toni Morrison does. I think they're on the same level, and it is middle-brow, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I love "The Canterbury Tales," which I was (thankfully) forced to read in the original, and I'm sorry, Hector, but the "dirty stories" are some of the best parts.

Orwell, Twain and Yeats are in my pantheon, but then so is Stan Lee.

See, Ben A, that's the whole point. "A truth universally acknowledged" really means acknowledged within academia, a community dominated by white men. That's far from universal, and narrow-minded to pretend that it is. The fact that you would call it universal shows your blindness to the exclusivity of academia. Our ideas about what makes a "great" novel are shaped by our cultural prejudices, and only by forcing ourselves to read outside the canon can we hope to gain the perspective to evaluate the canon fairly.

Joseph writes: "I just received BA in English Studies in 2007 and I think you are being absolutely ridiculous. The vast majority of my curriculum consist of those Dead White Male texts precisely because what makes those books great is their utility in educating people. And I was educated in an English Studies department that is extremely post-modern."

I had essentially the same experience in a similar school and graduated in 1984. I'm just glad the degree was in "English" and not "English Studies."

Yuck.

z writes: "Our ideas about what makes a "great" novel are shaped by our cultural prejudices, and only by forcing ourselves to read outside the canon can we hope to gain the perspective to evaluate the canon fairly."

In high school I recommended Frank Herbert's "Dune" to an English teacher who passed it on to the department head - and the next year it was added on to the reading list for the junior AP English class.

I thought that was very open of them - and that it's a great book well worthy of inclusion.

argue the modern relevance of Pope and Chaucer

"Relevance" is a word generally used by shifty people who want to sell ya something.

I think Pope is great, and anyone serious about this stuff should read Hugh Kenner on why -- but he's not going to do much for even most lit majors, and his absence from the canon isn't a shame. Everyone should read Chaucer, geez.

Moe: I can't believe Dickens bores you. "Dune" is like "Tarzan" or Lovecraft -- it may be a story that has some serious power and deserves study, but the actual writing is pretty awful. Except I (who liked the novel) don't think Dune is on the same level of story. And, that said, it'd be a fine thing to make high school students read, in that they might actually like it, and it isn't pure junk.

Saying that it's "obviously ... depressing" that Woolf replaced, for example, Dryden in a list of authors might be taken by some as anti-feminist, but I think you're saying it because you're anti-modern. The word that is really depressing in your sentence is "obvious." Some people learned something from the whole disagreement about what to teach, but the people who think everything about it is "obvious," on either side, didn't learn beans.

Multiculturalism as presently constituted is not a threat to the cultural heritage of the liberal arts. The fact that the university is being reformed as a set of pre-professional schools and the students are all majoring in Communications rather than English Lit is. This cannot realistically be blamed on mean old French post-structuralists or tenured radicals.

TMoC writes: "Moe: I can't believe Dickens bores you. "Dune" is like "Tarzan" or Lovecraft -- it may be a story that has some serious power and deserves study, but the actual writing is pretty awful. Except I (who liked the novel) don't think Dune is on the same level of story. And, that said, it'd be a fine thing to make high school students read, in that they might actually like it, and it isn't pure junk."

No, it isn't. I don't think the writing is awful, though he's no Twain, but he's certainly much better than Ayn Rand. And I disagree about the story. It sure beats Tarzan and Lovecraft.

Dickens was often paid by the word and it shows. Melville's "Billy Budd" on its own blows away anything Dickens ever wrote.

Ben writes: "Saying that it's "obviously ... depressing" that Woolf replaced, for example, Dryden in a list of authors might be taken by some as anti-feminist, but I think you're saying it because you're anti-modern. The word that is really depressing in your sentence is "obvious.""

Agreed. And I hated "Mrs. Dalloway." "A Room Of One's Own," though, is a non-fiction gem.

Moe: I hope we all have better standards than "better than Ayn Rand" around here.

Lovecraft you might be right, I've never seen what's so Library of America about him myself -- but Tarzan struck something the same way Sherlock Holmes did, and will be around long after Herbert's totally forgotten, unless the Butlerian Jihad takes all our pasts with it. Maybe it isn't literature, but it's in prose and it's for the ages, whether we like it or Johnny W. or not.

Dickens is bloated, at times, but it's often delightful sprawl. He simply isn't doing what Melville is doing -- Dickens is a comic sentimentalist, Melville is not -- but Dickens has other registers, too. Give me the opening of _Bleak House_ over "Billy Budd" any day.

_To the Lighthouse_ is fine and dandy.

But yes, I'm afraid conservatives get too worked up about this, in a way, just as some liberals (and conservatives) get too worked about about evolution.

The schoolin' will leave most students so un-affected that it isn't really going to matter too much. And the ones who would care will read Dickens and (if they're really hungry) Proust and Austen and Toni Morrison and Cormac McCarthy and Milton and Pope and Poe and everyone else, as soon as they can, because if they are serious they will be reading other things that cause them to go "hmm, Saul Bellow makes sense of THIS book by talking about THAT book, so I'd best read THAT book too." I'm on the conservative side on the canon wars, I suppose. The real "battle" that mattered was over long before the radical takeover -- as far as I can tell, the grasp of Shakespeare, Homer, and the KJV Bible needed to grasp a huge fragment of allusion in English lit. hasn't been around for a while.

Joseph, have you read The Closing of the American Mind? Because Bloom's argument is precisely that we should read canonical works because they "make us think, challenge our values, explore our boundaries of knowledge." What he (and, I suspect, Ross) object to is the abandonment of that enterprise altogether because the idea that some books are great in that sense is just an artifact of cultural prejudice. By all means, the canon shouldn't be fixed for all time and people ought to debate what should be included like baseball fans debate who should be in the hall of fame. That debate is what a liberal arts college should be about.

Hrm, I guess _Dune_'s writing is more just boring than awful. It isn't embarrassing, but there's nothing in the prose to even notice.

Ahem.

Virginia Woolf is behind only James Joyce among 20th century novelists.

Morrison, like many novelists, wrote one great novel and a lot of middling ones. Sula is in the second tier of American novels, behind Moby Dick or Huck Finn but certainly in the top ten.

And, by the way, as a doctorate student at a top-five English program, easily 95% of what undergraduates read is by white males. Easily. This is, of course, not a way to correct some overestimation of nonwhite, nonmale writers, but a way to further marginalize them, under the guise of "battling back against multiculturalism."

And Dryden sucks.

Toni Morrison? What's wrong with Toni Morrison? I loved 'Song of Solomon.'

What's wrong with her, of course, is that she is black and a woman, so her writing can't possibly be actually good, and any acclaim it engenders is strictly the result of political correctness, according to people like Douthat. I mean it's literally impossible for him to give her work an actual fair accounting, because he's so committed to the narrative that anything by someone who's a woman or black or gay or at all out of the classic writer form must be the beneficiary of identity politics. And let me mince no words: the idea that someone can only be being praised because of political correctness is a flatly racist thing, no matter how you shake and dance.

I guarantee you that when Ross saw black students at his little college in Boston, he assumed they couldn't really be deserving of their admittance, and only were there thanks to affirmative action.

"And, by the way, as a doctorate student at a top-five English program..."

Not a doctoral student? Is this a form of post-modern English where one uses nouns in place of adjectives?

"I guarantee you that when Ross saw black students at his little college in Boston, he assumed they couldn't really be deserving of their admittance, and only were there thanks to affirmative action."

Wouldn't that be a fair assumption, given the relative paucity of blacks capable of achieving the average Harvard student's SAT score?

Virginia Woolf is behind only James Joyce among 20th century novelists.

Oh balderdash. I like Woolf and Joyce, but Proust beats both, hands down. That college classes aren't going to assign the whole shebang doesn't change this.

My claim is that people who really care about this are still going to read the canonical works. There _is_ a competition for attention, and no way around it: most of what's written recently isn't actually as good as the "best of the older stuff." And the recent additions to the canon are more iffy, in general, and may be grinding someone's axe. But -- they're recent, and need to be discussed and read by somebody -- Samuel Johnson read a lot of things in his day that we don't have to bother with because he and his fellows did. But there's too much material, in general. It'd be nice if college could create more time to read for us all, but it can't.

The idea of a native English speaker majoring in English in college would probably have seemed like something of a bad joke to most of the dead white males.

Ross seems to think Harvard and other colleges fail because multiculturalism and relativism have produced an educational program that lacks rigor.

For the many students who study math, science, and engineering, being forced to read any canon, multicultural or not, is a distraction from their intended studies. This is true to a certain extent for some of the social sciences such as economics and political science, as well. (I know, I know run-on sentence, but how well can you use eigenvectors?)

From my own experience, literature survey courses at my university were abolished because they were an imposition of humanities on student bodies that increasingly desired specialized courses and technical education that more easily translated into a career after graduation. We can't all be film critics and bloggers.

Amongst my peers, English courses were only taken as forced electives or to lift GPA. Classes in abstract algebra or inorganic chemistry were quite rigorous, and I am sure they would reflect just as high standards as those found in 1964, the time of TS Eliot, or the education system described in The Education of Henry Adams .

Obviously, having Morrison and to a lesser extent Woolf in that group is somewhat depressing, but it wouldn't be all that objectionable if most students at top-flight colleges were being required to read this group of authors; a week wasted on Sula seems a small price to pay for a student body that's acquainted with Shakespeare's tragedies.

The real implications of such a compromise would be a coalition between Dead White Men and Living Women of Color against Living White Men. Political relevance, not being allowed to apply to old works, would completely overwhelm literary merit in discussions of modern works.

I suppose the "modes of inquiry" view is a coalition of LWC and LWM against DWM.

Because Bloom's argument is precisely that we should read canonical works because they "make us think, challenge our values, explore our boundaries of knowledge."

Different works make different people think about different stuff.

They should replace Morrison and Woolf with this shitty blog.

Moe,

'Billy Budd' was really more of an extended short story than a novel, wouldn't you say? It basically is about a couple of characters and one or two main themes. Surely 'A Tale of Two Cities' has a broader scope as well as a broader range of emotional power than 'Billy Budd', as good as Billy Budd is.

I was a biology major, so my literary tastes are strictly those of a reader-for-fun. With that said, how do you really evaluate the worth of a literary work? Is it in terms of literary craftsmanship, emotional power, or is in terms of the ideas presented, and how much one believes in them? For example, if I had to choose whether to save for posterity the works of Shakespeare or the poems of William Blake, I would probably choose Blake, even though I know Shakespeare was much the better literary craftsman. Blake may have been a fairly second-rate poet, but the power of his vision (literally; he was someone who claimed to have had divine revelations throughout his life), and what I see as the essential truth of that vision, is something that I don't think I could find in Shakespeare.

On a similar note, whether or not you like Toni Morrison's style, she was clearly saying something that speaks to vast numbers of people- particularly, I would imagine, to young African American people questioning their heritage, although not being African-American i can't realy speak to that.

I wonder what the academic conservatives think about dead white males of a left-wing political persuasion, like Graham Greene? Greene is another writer that I would certainly take to a desert island.

"freeing their overspecialized young professors from the burdens of teaching survey courses."

Yes, this is the real story here, not necessarily the "who's in, who's out?" approach to English Department reading lists. Somewhere around about 1990, professors at elite universities simply lost the will to teach survey classes of any kind. They are either made optional, scrapped altogether or farmed out to adjuncts. A lot of it is laziness pure and simple.

Classes in abstract algebra or inorganic chemistry were quite rigorous, and I am sure they would reflect just as high standards as those found in 1964, the time of TS Eliot, or the education system described in The Education of Henry Adams .

Well, this is true of the upper-level classes at decent schools, in technical fields. The lower level math classes, even at decent second-tier places, unfortunately, are rather dumbed down because _we have lots more people taking the classes now_. A good student in a technical field often will strike a strange curve where the first two classes of the calculus sequence, at least, are curved and paced such that they become trivial to anyone actually suited for calculus. Then at some point, perhaps differential equations, the classes will be geared for those who someone is willing to let graduate with, say, an engineering degree -- and the difficulty will suddenly increase massively. This has roughly nothing to do with the original post, though.

Graham Greene? A fine writer, though his politics were sometimes absurd -- but if you only have room for one jaundiced English Catholic, I'd go for Waugh. Not because he's more right-wing, but because he wrote better novels.

TMoC writes: "Hrm, I guess _Dune_'s writing is more just boring than awful. It isn't embarrassing, but there's nothing in the prose to even notice."

I'm guessing you prefer more flowery prose. It's been a long time since I've read "Dune," and I'm not going to dig it out, but I recall it being better than that - and the enthusiastic reception it was given by others I respected did nothing to make me think otherwise. But if you're a Dickens fan I suppose you need constant adjectival fireworks and endless rhetorical flourishes to be impressed.

"Oh balderdash. I like Woolf and Joyce, but Proust beats both, hands down."

I don't read any non-English writers in their native tongue, and I'm not sure how to assess non-English novelists fully. I know Joyce has influenced Marquez and Grass and Pynchon and Bellow and Coover and nearly every short story writer. I have no idea who Proust has influenced. Perhaps the same list.

I think Pynchon will be as highly regarded 50 years from now as any other 20th century writer is - and may be at the top of the heap. Kesey, Fitzgerald, Hemingway will all have a place at the table.

It's kind of silly to pretend there are objective standards here.

Survey courses have probably always been fairly poorly taught. I still claim that given the relative unimportance of _university_ education to the intelligent men of most recent periods of history, up until our age, the disappearance of the canon is as much about an explosion of knowledge of interesting material to read rather than the success of some conspiracy headed by Toni Morrison.

Hector writes: "I was a biology major, so my literary tastes are strictly those of a reader-for-fun. With that said, how do you really evaluate the worth of a literary work? Is it in terms of literary craftsmanship, emotional power, or is in terms of the ideas presented, and how much one believes in them? For example, if I had to choose whether to save for posterity the works of Shakespeare or the poems of William Blake, I would probably choose Blake, even though I know Shakespeare was much the better literary craftsman. Blake may have been a fairly second-rate poet, but the power of his vision (literally; he was someone who claimed to have had divine revelations throughout his life), and what I see as the essential truth of that vision, is something that I don't think I could find in Shakespeare."

I'd preserve the works of Philip K. Dick over those of Chesterton, Hector, so I see what you're saying. But I happen to think Dick was (in his better moments) twice the artist Chesterton was. Dick, by the way, also thought he had divine revelations. I think he was sort of nuts in that regard, but it doesn't impede my appreciation of his great works.

I'd pick Shakespeare over Blake, but I do admire Blake very much.

Speaking of Jesus-driven mad geniuses, do you know Gerard Manley Hopkins? If not, you need to.

TMoC writes: "Graham Greene? A fine writer, though his politics were sometimes absurd -- but if you only have room for one jaundiced English Catholic, I'd go for Waugh. Not because he's more right-wing, but because he wrote better novels."

Like hell. You're letting your political bias creep into your analysis. I'm quoting from memory here - a professor wrote about a section of my essay that dealt with Waugh - "You're at a bit of a loss with Waugh here, as are we all." Waugh's world view was a diluted puddle of piss.

Marquis:

If you read Ross's post, it is not about what should be considered canon, but the fact that canon (even a multiculturalism compromised canon) is no longer required for students. He thought it was due to the canon wars. I thought it was about a general change in the focus of modern universities.

This whole debate has been very interesting, but not really about the main subject of Ross's post.

Sorry also, I mentioned The Education of Henry Adams and TS Eliot, because Ross linked to his book which was about the degeneration of Harvard's education system.

I guess I meant deterioration.

I'll shut up now.

The end of the Freshman "Great Books" canon had very little to do with political correctness. As "Space Monkey" pointed out, this change stems from the declining importance of humanities to the modern university.

Generally speaking, the people who pushed against "Great Books" requirements were the science and engineering departments. As research dollars flowed into postwar university campuses, the relative influence of liberal arts departments went into a steep decline. This fundamental shift in the perceived purpose of a university education played a huge role in the demise of mandatory literature survey classes. With each passing year it became more and more difficult for universities to justify teaching Chaucer and Pope instead of allowing students to choose coursework that has more relevance to the world they actually live in.

I can't speak to the environment at Harvard. But in my experiences, out in Big Ten country, left-leaning Professors were just as dismayed as conservatives about the fact that many students are no longer required to read anything.

The level of vitriol directed at Toni Morrison here is ridiculous. Beloved wasn't really my cup of tea, but neither was The Sound and the Fury. It's hardly unreasonable for an American literature course to be built around the assumption that a proper understanding of American culture requires us to understand both Faulkner's perspective and Morrison's, and to appreciate both the highbrow traditions that influenced Faulkner and the folk narratives that influenced Morrision.

I don't have much patience for culture war zealots who think either one of those perspectives should "obviously" be dismissed because it doesn't comport with their own sense of what literature should be.

Ross, I agree with most of what you say, but think you aim too low. You are ready to accept a low-grade twat like Toni Morrison if - somehow - students were to be serious about their Shakespeare. That seems psychologically and morally unrealistic. To jumble together things so low and high merely creates, as you put it, a desert. And by what politically craven stretch does a mediocre American novelist like Morrison qualify as 'multicultural'? Just cos' she's got a black face? That's just racism.


The point is not merely to grudgingly accept multiculturalism as an unavoidable necessity but rather to champion it as an imperative and opportunity, while also - and this is key - hugely raising the entry standards. Throw out all-American nobodies like Morrison and bring in some of the genuine first rank masterpieces from outside of the western canon. They do exist you know! Think about the challenge and the sheer fantastic kick from reading Homer alongside the Ramayana, or Shakespeare alongside the dramatic masterpieces of Kalidasa. You bring them in not as a grudging concession to the darkies but because they're just so damn good! Yeah baby! Let’s go!

brm writes: "Ross, I agree with most of what you say, but think you aim too low. You are ready to accept a low-grade twat like Toni Morrison if - somehow - students were to be serious about their Shakespeare. That seems psychologically and morally unrealistic. To jumble together things so low and high merely creates, as you put it, a desert. And by what politically craven stretch does a mediocre American novelist like Morrison qualify as 'multicultural'? Just cos' she's got a black face? That's just racism."

You're in the wrong place, brm. The Klan meeting you're looking for is over at freerepublic.com. Have a blast.

I'm open to arguments that there's something special about Shakespeare; as another Bloom likes to say at great length, he really is sort of a god in literature. But honestly, Chaucer? I mean, I like the Canterbury Tales. But it's just strange to think that they are inherently Greater Literature than Morrison or O'Connor or Hurston or plenty of other multi-culti stuff. Like, failure of taste strange. Unless you very explicitly want to promote the idea of a Great Tradition, over and above any belief about the literary superiority of the people within it. Which, I guess maybe you do?

Poor Ross. He got an Ivy League education, a cushy job writing for a fancy magazine, and yet he's still The Victim here, a casualty of the Culture War, wherein someone made him read a book written by someone a little different from himself. People excluded for centuries are given a little attention, and suddenly the culture is rendered "a desert".

The search for a smart, reasonable conservative continues.....

If they brought back the canon, would there be an increase in the number of Harvard graduates with the rigorous education required to become a political pundit?

The "great books" (on which there is by no means a consensus) are themselves only the beginning. The history, politics, philosophy and sociology that goes with them, and the eventual linkages between the books in the Western canon is what makes them so Great. Although only a fool would deny themselves the rich bounty of world literature, there simply isn't a tradition of comprable caliber anywhere outside the West.

While I subscribe to the view oulined above, I in no way think that the way to measure if our children is learnin' is to look up their reading lists. The whole exercise of taxing young minds with the work seems both wrong-headed and sadistic. (I remember seeing "The Brothers Karamazov" on a public school's tenth-grade reading list--imagine the kids' delight!)

An interesting thread, but most people are missing Ross' main point. They are instead rehashing the secondary point of just which books deserve a place in the cannon. Mind you, I think that Ross is wrong, mostly, but only LaFollette Progressive has really addressed his point head on (and he makes the same points that I would have, so I won't repeat them).

Would I prefer a world where most young people, as part of their education, were exposed to, and developed a love of, "great books," however defined? Yes, in the abstract. But (1) college kids who go to college for primarily vocational reasons (i.e., most of them), and who don't have a pre-existing love of literature, aren't going to derive mush benefit from being exposed to the "great Books;" (2) college kids who are into that sort of thing have plenty of opportunities, both in the classroom and outside it, to reading the great books (again, however defined); (3) the value of exposure to such works, on a purely utilitarian/society level, is significantly overblown.

Like hell. You're letting your political bias creep into your analysis. I'm quoting from memory here - a professor wrote about a section of my essay that dealt with Waugh - "You're at a bit of a loss with Waugh here, as are we all." Waugh's world view was a diluted puddle of piss.

I'm decidedly left of center, albeit with a libertarian bent, but I think Waugh is great. So is Greene; really the fault of TMoC's post is the absurd notion of limiting oneself to a single jaundiced English Catholic.

Moe and Marquis,

I think Graham Greene's style was quite his own; not all 'jaundiced english Catholics' are the same.

Being quite left-wing in politics myself, I agree with most of Graham Greene's politics. I would probably think Waugh's world view was rather absurd, but that doesn't in itself make him not worth reading. Jorge Luis Borges, whose brand of aristocratic conservatism makes me want to throw up, and who skated close to treason and fascism by openly endorsing Videla's coup of 1976 ("it's better to be ruled by gentlemen than by pimps") is also one of my favorite writers, another one who I would certainly take to a desert island. Have you read any Borges, Moe?

Philip K. Dick...I've heard good things about him, both in terms of his writing and his speculative theological ideas, I should check him out. Chesterton obviously had his limitations, and I disagree with his worldview in many particulars, but I also think he had some good insights, and was a damn good writer.

Waugh's world view was a diluted puddle of piss.

So? Oh, Waugh was a nasty man, no doubt about it. But what's that to do with literature?

Look, I'm not knocking Greene at all -- one of his short stories, "Under the Garden," is one of the most affecting and potent things I've ever read, and even "entertainments" like _Travels with my Aunt_ are worth reading. I think it's quite possible he was a better human being than Waugh (hard contest -- both seem to have been high order asses in many ways). Anyone who cares should read _both_ of them. And, no, I don't think the styles are very similar. I just think that Waugh was better at constructing novels. Greene is very powerful in _The Power and the Glory_ or _The Heart of the Matter_, but the artistry seems to me to be of a lesser order than Waugh in _A Handful of Dust_, _Vile Bodies_, _Decline and Fall_, or _Put Out More Flags_.

I don't see how anyone thinks Dick could _write sentences well_ in general, but he's worth checking out because he manages to be great in spite of this. The ideas and the choice of names for things and images are completely his own, irreplaceable. _Ubik_ and _The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch_ are spectacular and unique.

Hopkins is good. I love Chesterton, and sometimes he was inspired, but he was too hurried and sloppy and unwilling to edit to be a great literary stylist.

But Great Books programs aren't necessarily meant to tell you which authors are Important, but to pass along the understanding that every discipline has an intellectual history, and that authors play off one another's prior research. (Basing this on Yale Directed Studies; don't know about elsewhere.)

In science survey classes you're introduced to first principles of the discipline, and then you break them down. A "Great Books" program means to do the same thing deep down: Introduce students to first principles of, say, political philosophy, survey how others break them down, and then hope the students will eventually pick up from reading others how to do it on their own. The content of the syllabus matters a lot less than its coherence -- how do the themes of the chosen texts all tie together? How do they refer to one another?

But I think undergrad STEM (science, tech, engineering, math) programs could do more to push future researchers to approach the sciences the same way. If designed for specific disciplines (say, one semester survey of history of molecular bio) then it wouldn't necessarily detract from publishing research.

Any reading list big enough to give students a background in the western literary tradition would be far too big for one class, or even for all of college. It's a life-long project, ideally, and not all as solitary reading either. I don't get much out of reading Shakespeare silently, for example, but I love to see it performed.

A better project for college is to get across the notion that there IS a western literary tradition. One aspect of this actually is about incorporating folk references into high-brow art. That idea wasn't invented in 1970, and it certainly occurred to a lot of white males down through the ages. I have no problem with discussing it as one of those things western literature does.

The problem I have is with the assumption that anything written by white males is automatically a reflection of the social power structure. That's silly. It is true that white men (rich ones, anyway) have had a lot of powerful positions in society, but saying that all the kings of England have been white is not the same as saying that all white people have been kings of England. Lots of white men have taken their shots at power structures, and ignoring them (or mischaracterizing their work) leads people to a very strange idea of how ideas developed over time.

TMoC again: "I don't see how anyone thinks Dick could _write sentences well_ in general, but he's worth checking out because he manages to be great in spite of this. The ideas and the choice of names for things and images are completely his own, irreplaceable. _Ubik_ and _The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch_ are spectacular and unique."

This "well written sentences" fetish of yours is hard to take seriously. It amounts to ntohing more than personal taste.

Dick's best work is "A Scanner Darkly." I haven't bothered to parse it sentence by sentence yet, and I don't think I'll be doing so anytime soon.

How about John le Carre? "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold" is tremendous. His politics have been exposed as quite leftward now that the Cold War is over, but he is definitely one of the best out there. (Perhaps he doesn't belong in the "canon," I don't know. I'm just enjoying this thread with its mulitiplicity of recommended writers.)

We're mostly into matters of taste here. I love Dickens, but it usually takes me a few chapters to get rolling on any given novel. I sometimes have to remind myself to slow down and enjoy. I started school in the mid-'80s and drifted away. I went back to get my degree a few years ago, and found that, while there were a few changes (colonial literature is apparently big now), the reading lists are still dominated by dead white men. My last two classes were a Joyce seminar (in which we also read a great deal of Ibsen) and a 20th century American lit class in which we managed to read both DWM (Crane, Hemingway, WC Williams, etc.) and (gasp) Toni Morrison. Literary reputations change, the canon changes, and it will ever be so. I find it hard to believe that the non-specialist actually read Dryden 40 years ago, and I don't really think that not reading him is much of a loss to anyone who isn't primarily interested in Restoration/18th century poetry.

Re: With each passing year it became more and more difficult for universities to justify teaching Chaucer and Pope instead of allowing students to choose coursework that has more relevance to the world they actually live in.

I'm not sure I would agree with this. There should be plenty of room in a freshman or sophomore's schedule for classes outside their major. For one thing, in their first year or two they are taking basic level courses in that major and cannot take higher level courses in the major until the intro classes are completed.

I notice more than one person questioning the (unquestionable) greatness of Geoffrey Chaucer. People of that sort are exactly why we need to keep teaching an established canon of great works. Greatness says nothing in particular about your personal tastes, but many things about how past writers shaped the language, changed the art of story-telling, and impacted the public imagination as well as that of future writers. Where Chaucer is concerned none of that is open to subjective dispute. Judging Chaucer by modern literary norms ("some of it is low-brow!") is risible and ignorant. People who appear to have decided literary criticism is about "what I like" are only hostages of their own limited worldviews and will likely never understand much of great literature. Which is fine - just don't pretend you have something to say about what should be taught to people who would care to appreciate it. (Notice that "appreciate" and "like" don't mean the same thing, and the former is what teaching literature sets about instilling.) If it weren't for Chaucer, we'd have a different English literature today. So shut up already. You want to understand English lit, you read Chaucer, like him or not.

"Multiculturalism," otoh, caters to one's personal tastes by turning students over to an indiscriminate & haphazard smorgasbord of writers. This will teach us a lot about what we're predisposed to like, but less and less about literature itself.

Great writers withstand the test of time, and that is essentially all that should be required of them. Calling them back under review because of some confused, anachronistic ideas about historical "sexism" or "racism" is misguided and arrogant. Nothing you can say about their personal faults, or the faults of their time viewed through the prism of today, can take away from what made them great writers in the first place.

This, posted by some brazen fool called "z", is what I mean:

The canon" is inherited from and perpetuated by a deeply sexist, racist, and unjust society, and as such doesn't deserve our unconsidered respect. You'd have to defend works you would preserve on their own terms, overcoming the obstacle of our racist and sexist past, rather than just dismissing non-canon works because our bigoted forebears wouldn't have written them.

First, that isn't anywhere near what Ross or anybody else is suggesting. Second, notice the unbelievably arrogant tone. Third, the post contradicts itself in the same breath by demanding that works be judged "on their own terms" while decrying the "bigoted" society that has brought them forth and preserved them. Which itself is bigoted! And betrays an utter lack of understanding of how a literary canon, not to mention a society, evolves, and handily ignores the fact that the poster's own sense of (self)righteousness has been inherited from the exact same source, indeed many of the same thinkers who made invaluable contributions to this supposedly "racist, sexist and unjust" canon. (Jane Austen was sexist??) What if Shakespeare had adopted this ridiculous, pompous attitude about his place and role in literature before he set to work?

Moe -- it's not a fetish, it's simply one aspect of a work's quality. It's not the only one. I think Dick is great. I think John Updike writes supremely beautiful sentences, at least in much of his work, but (except for his literary criticism, which is often good) generally is a waste of time -- too much polish on a few obsessive themes.

That said, it is important. I don't see how you can consider Hopkins or most 20th century poets interesting without granting that the very particular way words are used is as important as the ideas under the writing. It doesn't have to be "fancy" and "loads of adjectives" -- _The Great Gatsby_ or Hemingway when he wasn't diving into self-parody are _high quality writing_ but not a feast of descriptive baggage, in general. The difference is that I don't think Dick cared how a sentence worked, ever -- a sentence, for him (or for Herbert) is a device to convey a narrative or conceptual content, little more in most cases. Other writers tend to the details of words and syntax and arrangements, to control aesthetic effects. Writers who can do both the fine-grained work and have something to say with it are generally, I think, better than ones who can only manage one side or the other. That's all. I think that's objectively true, and it becomes clear if you consider poetry. Is "prose quality" of this sort the only important thing? Nah, of course not. But it is a thing that matters, and should be part of an education in English literature.

This helter-skelter discussion of favorite books is not off the point of Douthat's essay -- it illustrates just what was so lame about his premise. Taste is relative. And conditioned by gender, culture, income and all of that stuff. Those of you who feel free to dismiss Toni Morrison are saying more about yourself than you are about Morrison's work (and I don't mean that in a good way).

The canon idea is nothing more that a bunch of wealthy white men getting together to decide which books by other wealthy white men should be read to complete the education of young wealthy white men in college. The fact that right-wing folks cling romantically to the canon idea strikes me as nothing more than a yearning for a return for the days before all those women and people of color came and ruined the party.

Bill,
I agree with much of what you said in your comment (especially to 'z'), but I take issue with this:
"You want to understand English lit, you read Chaucer, like him or not."
I did read Chaucer in high school, and remember not a thing. I honestly don't think it helped me understand English lit, and I don't think it would help me if I were to read him again. I feel the same way about Beowulf, the honorable Bede, etc. Such works are worth reading for a historical grounding in how English became the language it has become, but they are not essential for understanding English literature on a broad scale. (Shakespeare and Milton certainly are essential.)

I did read Chaucer in high school, and remember not a thing. I honestly don't think it helped me understand English lit, and I don't think it would help me if I were to read him again. I feel the same way about Beowulf, the honorable Bede, etc. Such works are worth reading for a historical grounding in how English became the language it has become, but they are not essential for understanding English literature on a broad scale.

I regret to inform you that you are mistaken. Precisely for understanding English lit "on a broad scale." Sometimes it just takes the right teacher.

(Shakespeare and Milton certainly are essential.)

One wonders what inspired you to draw the line there and not before. Chaucer is our Dante.

It's important to remember that this argument is a lot older than the 60s.

Jonathan Swift wrote (satirically of course) about this very topic in the 18th Century with his "Battle of the Books" -- at the time the debate was over whether to include this "new radical" English authors like Pope and Dryden and Shakespeare (and oh my good Chaucer is just a bunch of sex and farting jokes!) over the "canon" of that time: Classical Greek and Roman works.

Interestingly, we still read Ovid and Homer (although not in the original languages, granted), and have successfully added those "radical" English writers (including Swift!) without harm.

I suspect the canon will absorb plenty more before it reaches "saturation."

I have a different take on this at my blog: http://incertus.blogspot.com/2007/09/sunday-times-book-review-updates-us-on.html

Chaucer is our Dante? Hardly.
The King James Version of the Bible, that is the source from which our language and our literature has sprung. (Sorry to sound verbose.)

From Sophie Brown: "The canon idea is nothing more that a bunch of wealthy white men getting together to decide which books by other wealthy white men should be read to complete the education of young wealthy white men in college. The fact that right-wing folks cling romantically to the canon idea strikes me as nothing more than a yearning for a return for the days before all those women and people of color came and ruined the party."

And Beethoven was black.

dear response,

I am afraid your biting wit escapes me. Are you saying that wealthy white men also have the monopoly on producing beautiful music? I guess that would be consistent with the canonical world view. It is also sadly limited and incredibly wrong.

Chaucer is our Dante? Hardly. The King James Version of the Bible, that is the source from which our language and our literature has sprung. (Sorry to sound verbose.)

The King James Bible doesn't even predate Shakespeare.

TMoC responds: "Moe -- it's not a fetish, it's simply one aspect of a work's quality. It's not the only one. I think Dick is great. I think John Updike writes supremely beautiful sentences, at least in much of his work, but (except for his literary criticism, which is often good) generally is a waste of time -- too much polish on a few obsessive themes.

That said, it is important. I don't see how you can consider Hopkins or most 20th century poets interesting without granting that the very particular way words are used is as important as the ideas under the writing. It doesn't have to be "fancy" and "loads of adjectives" -- _The Great Gatsby_ or Hemingway when he wasn't diving into self-parody are _high quality writing_ but not a feast of descriptive baggage, in general. The difference is that I don't think Dick cared how a sentence worked, ever -- a sentence, for him (or for Herbert) is a device to convey a narrative or conceptual content, little more in most cases. Other writers tend to the details of words and syntax and arrangements, to control aesthetic effects. Writers who can do both the fine-grained work and have something to say with it are generally, I think, better than ones who can only manage one side or the other. That's all. I think that's objectively true, and it becomes clear if you consider poetry. Is "prose quality" of this sort the only important thing? Nah, of course not. But it is a thing that matters, and should be part of an education in English literature."

Of course it matters, but I think you have a very limited appreciation for what constitutes "good sentence writing." If you don't think "Gatsby" is beautifully written I suggest you're, uh, "tone-blind."

Hopkins is one of the marvels of modern poetry in that his spectacular use of language makes up for his "few obsessive themes," as you note with Updike. This doesn't make him a better poet than Wallace Stevens, though.

I find this "wealthy white men" bit a little annoying. I guess by comparison to a dirt farmer or something most major figures of the canon were doing ok, but Shakespeare and Samuel Johnson weren't tycoons. Guess: Toni Morrison has more wealth by at least a few measures than a number of the "rich white guys."

Sophie Brown ingeniously opines:

The canon idea is nothing more that a bunch of wealthy white men getting together to decide which books by other wealthy white men should be read to complete the education of young wealthy white men in college.

Congratulations, Sophie, on piercing through the mists of time to bring everybody up to speed on which subset of the human species happened to author much of our past literature. Who knows, maybe you'll even find that in the Muslim world, the canonical authors are entirely wealthy brown men. We being Westerners, and hence largely white, could only expect to receive whatever our historically best-educated (historically, the wealthy! *gasp*) handed down to us -- tragically limited as they all no doubt were by the wealthy white world imprisoning them.

chaucerecchh writes: "I did read Chaucer in high school, and remember not a thing. I honestly don't think it helped me understand English lit, and I don't think it would help me if I were to read him again. I feel the same way about Beowulf, the honorable Bede, etc. Such works are worth reading for a historical grounding in how English became the language it has become, but they are not essential for understanding English literature on a broad scale. (Shakespeare and Milton certainly are essential.)"

It's "the venerable Bede," damnit, and you're right in his case. But Chaucer kicks Milton's ass every day of the week.

I was using _Gatsby_ as an example of beautifully written prose, Moe -- that, and good Hemingway. Neither is awash in adjectives, both are fine-grained beautiful prose.

I find this "wealthy white men" bit a little annoying. I guess by comparison to a dirt farmer or something most major figures of the canon were doing ok, but Shakespeare and Samuel Johnson weren't tycoons. Guess: Toni Morrison has more wealth by at least a few measures than a number of the "rich white guys."

Thank you. It's not just a little annoying, it's offensive, outrageous, ignorant, and totally snobbish. Many of our greatest writers were from the middle class. Many of them can take credit for the fact that we even have a middle class. The Sophie Brown's of the world will get what they deserve.

Sophie, may I suggest you list a few of those "wealthy white men" that you have in mind, and then look them up in an encycolopedia (even Wikipedia will do). I think you'll find many who weren't wealthy. Writing doesn't pay all that well.

Sophie, may I suggest you list a few of those "wealthy white men" that you have in mind, and then look them up in an encycolopedia (even Wikipedia will do). I think you'll find many who weren't wealthy. Writing doesn't pay all that well.

Never mind, she'll probably just claim they were co-opted by the wealthy white men handing down the canon. What she really means to say, though, is that wealthy or not they were white, and therefore racist, and therefore preventing (whether complicit or not) the recognition of authors of color and women of their own time, or still crowding out today's contenders. She probably learned just the other day that George Eliot was a woman and is still outraged by it. I'd pay a lot to hear Eliot's reaction to her mindset.

Is Jane Austen ok with sophie? She was middle-class, and a woman. But white, Christian, and arguably "Conservative."

andrew b writes: "The King James Version of the Bible, that is the source from which our language and our literature has sprung."

Now THERE'S a fetish. What a stupid claim.

ok, ok, ok, folks. I agree that writing tends not to make one rich. That was hyperbolic on my part and incited more anger than is productive, so I was wrong.

Bill, before you get too upset, let me assure you that most of the authors you love I appreciate too. I adore Eliot, have since I was a teenager. Where in the world would you get the idea that I don't know her history? I would wager, actually, that she would not put too much stock in the idea of the canon since (and this is what made her great in my opinion) she had an ear for the voice of people outside of the whole canon-oriented world....

I am sure you would approve (for the most part) of my choices of great literature, just as I tend to approve of many I see here. But it seems more important to me to recognize that our choices are highly contextual and say as much about our particular background and orientation as they do about the works themselves.

Maybe I'll try it this way: "Multiculturalism" doesn't mean that a fixed audience is going to broaden its view of what constitutes good writing. It means that the audience has changed, so that what resonates and strikes a chord has changed too. When people say Toni Morrison is junk, or middle brow, they seem to be missing that. And, to go one step further, dissing someone like Toni Morrison has the effect of communicating to those who love and respect her work that they do not really belong among the canon-makers.

Shakespeare may not have personally been wealthy, but I think it is generally acknowledged that was interested in pleasing the wealthy and powerful of his day, and was somewhat less than interested in making waves, and in challenging the power structure. I don't think it's controversial that a good many of the writers celebrated by the academic conservatives, are favored in large part, not because they were rich white men, but because their ideas were congenial to the power structure of their time and today, and continue to be favorable to the social/economic/political establishment of today.

I don't see More's "Utopia" on too many conservative reading lists (even though he was a contemporary of Shakespeare, and one of the foremost intellectuals of his day.) Perhaps because unlike Shakespeare, More makes a trenchant critique of the capitalism that was just beginning in England at that date, and even today you can't read his book and come away from it feeling happy about modern liberal-capitalist society. Unlike Shakespeare, (and like William Blake) More saw that his society was corrupt at its core, and he ultimately was willing to give up his life to say it. That should count for something.

For similar reasons, I wouldn't imagine that people of the Bloom ilk are big fans of "Saint Joan" or the poetry of William Blake, eminent writers as they were.

It seems to me reasonable to say that Shakespeare et al. were great writers, but that they have been 'canonized' in part because they buttress a certain ideology. That's not to take credit away from Shakespeare, but rather to say that we should hear other voices too. Ultimately a writer needs to be judged not just on the basis of his literary craftsmanship, but on the quality and power of his vision- and ultimately that depends in part on how true you think that vision was.

Sophie Brown,

I for one, love "Song of Solomon", I havent read any other Morrison but I've heard her other stuff well recomended.

Educated people today are not the same narrow group that they were in the 1950s, defined by race, gender, class, and ideology, thank the Lord, and it makes sense that the students of today will have different things that speak to them as well.

Thanks HDG, I think your point about Shakespeare, Blake and More is a terrific one. Thankfully, no one is claiming Rand belongs in the Canon.

I think Ayn Rand belongs in the canon. After all, she's a Russian woman. Where are all the Russians in the English canon?

And, to go one step further, dissing someone like Toni Morrison has the effect of communicating to those who love and respect her work that they do not really belong among the canon-makers.

I actually don't know Morrison's work well enough to say anything in her case (a possibly culpable omission -- none of my English lit. classes put her on my plate, and I haven't bubbled her to the top of the endless list of things to read myself in the many odd years since). But -- is there anyone who doesn't belong among the canon-makers, sophie? Are there contexts that can be deemed sub-literary, or lacking in merit or content? The Nick Carter spy novels are interesting cultural artifacts, but is there any argument for them as canon? Or for Tom Clancy or Terry McMillan, for that matter?

It means that the audience has changed, so that what resonates and strikes a chord has changed too. When people say Toni Morrison is junk, or middle brow, they seem to be missing that. And, to go one step further, dissing someone like Toni Morrison has the effect of communicating to those who love and respect her work that they do not really belong among the canon-makers.

Multiculturalism too often puts skin color and subject matter above writing quality. That happens to sum up my opinion of Morrison, and "dissing" her is only an expression of not liking her work. If the audience has changed enough that she turns out to be regarded as one of the most important and influential writers of the 20th century by the majority of critics then she'll belong in the so-called canon (whether I like her or not). The point, Sophie, which you seem to be missing about additions to the canon, is the normal generational delay. There are no present-day "canon-makers" who get to exclude certain people they disagree with.

Hrm, I'm not sure whose axe Shakespeare grinds. If you want suspicion of power structures and politics as mirror, theater, and sham, I'm not sure why you'd look elsewhere. You can find other things, too, of course, but that's one.

_Utopia_ is probably not on many lists because it is such a peculiar and difficult to get a grasp on book. More has more than six fingers on each hand, there, and when he's satirizing what is very hard to figure out, indeed. He didn't die for _Utopia_ after all, or anti-capitalist tirades (whatever those precisely would have meant then) -- he died on a sticklerish point of law and religion. I like More, and you could claim he went to his death a social conservative, dying for the supremacy of the pope and in hostility to divorce!

In Closing of the American Mind Alan Bloom lamented not only about a loss of the Western canon but mostly that American students were steeped in a culture of relativism where truth had become merely a matter of opinion. Not only were his students at Chicago illiterate regarding elementary Biblical and Shakespearean literature, they were, however saccharine, uncivilized and lacked backbone in relation to seeking to understand basic truths. If one wants to understand the logical result of this read I Am Charlotte Simmons.

These students of the sixties and seventies, also, had little respect for their forbears who had lived through the Depression, fought WW II and built the strong post-war economy that allowed them to attend a first-rate university.

While the multiculturalists, as Ross remarked, won the popularity contest, it doesn't follow that Bloom's argument for the classical canon was mistaken.

I think there are several different important questions here that ought to be addressed separately.

1. Is there such a thing as a "Great Book" than can be judged by some single, timeless set of criteria?

2. Is it worthwhile for universities to compel all of their students, regardless of major, to read a list of Great Books?

3. Should the subset of students who choose to study literature seriously be expected to read and appreciate a canonical list of important works?

I think the answer to #3 is yes, and even most of the "academic leftists" I know would agree with this. I would suggest a very broad literary canon that includes plenty of diverse authors who Ross doesn't like. I also think the canon needs to be constantly debated and frequently pruned. (Chaucer is too historically important to skip, but Dryden not so much) The mere existence of a literary canon, however, is worth defending.

I don't think that either #1 or #2 necessarily follows from this position. Times change, and so do standards of art and literary criticism. There's no reason to place a certain set of "classics" beyond reproach. If a work continues to be influential and highly regarded, great. If not, then not.

And while "The Rape of the Lock" is a lovely introduction to satire and essential to any 18th Century English Literature course, it's hardly an essential part of a well-rounded scientific education. What's wrong with letting students who are only taking one or two humanities electives choose from a set of survey courses that explore a certain culture or era with a little bit of depth, instead of just marching them forcibly through the "classics"?

LaFolette,

I think if they emerge from college without some at least slightly-in-depth reading of (A) the major plays of Shakespeare and (B) the King James Bible, students will be ill-prepared should they decide to get a grip on their literary heritage later on. Not knowing Hamlet and (say) David and Bathsheba leaves you generally adrift, and even the particular language in these cases is important to getting other works.

However, schools being what they are, no matter who triumphs or triumphed on 1 and 2, most students who would not acquire this knowledge without college (or high school) will not acquire it anyway.

Multiculturalism too often puts skin color and subject matter above writing quality.

I knew I'd see it if I hung around long enough--the biggest strawman in the history of multiculturalism, proudly on display. Thanks, Bill.

LaFollette-

If we're discussing the likes of Chaucer and Dryden, then I would think, by default, we're only speaking of literature (or humanities) students, and not the general student population. The battle over whether everyone has to read Chaucer or not was lost a long time ago (if you leave aside high schools whose honors' English classes make a very perfunctory stab at it). The Great Works have always been fairly lofty repositories, accessible only to a certain breed. They may have been forced on a lot of British schoolboys, but you can be sure only a few of them "got it." And the extent to which they were part and parcel of a normal American college education in the early 20th century, and are no longer so today, is as much a reflection of the fact that far more people attend college in America now than did then (and a far less elite bunch).

Upset I came so late to this post.

"while freeing their overspecialized young professors from the burdens of teaching survey courses."

This is the most scandalous aspect. Academics are all such preening narcissists (intellectually) that few of them feel obligated to do the heavy lifting of passing on our cultural heritage.

Some good anecdotal news from a graduate student I meant recently was his remark that “all he really wants to do is teach Shakespeare.”

I believe that as a new, less politically correct generation moves online they will have rediscovered the great on their own & wont feel burdened by the “dead hand of the past” when teaching them.

I knew I'd see it if I hung around long enough--the biggest strawman in the history of multiculturalism, proudly on display. Thanks, Bill.

You're welcome. I don't think either skin color or subject matter have anything to say about the quality of a piece of writing, and that's only my opinion. If you're suggesting that the "multiculturalist" movement doesn't give undue weight to those considerations, in the name of relativism, I guess I disagree.

Bill- "If we're discussing the likes of Chaucer and Dryden, then I would think, by default, we're only speaking of literature (or humanities) students, and not the general student population. The battle over whether everyone has to read Chaucer or not was lost a long time ago (if you leave aside high schools whose honors' English classes make a very perfunctory stab at it)."

This is why I felt it was important to clarify this question. I understood from context that Ross was lamenting the demise of the Great Books curriculum for undergraduates... and blaming the demise on multiculturalism. This, I think, is wildly inaccurate.

There are certainly a few rabble rousers taking potshots at "dead white men" and much conservative handwringing about the inclusion of authors like Toni Morrison in the canon. Yet there's more smoke to this controversy than fire. As far as I know, most literature majors across the country are still taking courses based on the Norton Anthology.

As far as I know, most literature majors across the country are still taking courses based on the Norton Anthology.

Even non-majors are generally required to take some form of survey course of literature, either divided by genre or by time period or some other arbitrary convention (like British Lit to 1789 or something). I teach those classes all the time, and I rarely have English majors in them--this semester I seem to have a larger than normal selection of budding engineers, I believe. They're getting a fair dose of the classics, along with a good chunk of contemporary stuff, most of which will probably never make the canon, but will hopefully speak to them in a way that Dryden might not.

Bill

And I concur. I, Rigoberta Menchu was complete drivel and pap, and I still assigned (not just for race) but political (Marxist) reasons.

It was legion in its heyday.

Marquis,

Of course Utopia is hard to understand, and of course More would be considered a social conservative today, by many (probbaly more a social reactionary, in fact.) Asking whether More would be a liberal or conservative, of course, is somewhat silly; great men transcend narrow political characterizations, especially when they predated them by five hundred years.

But this is part of what makes More so intresting to read for today's students. It would be interesting for them to think about why so many revolutionary thinkers have had stringent sexual ethics, and perhaps question their own ideas about sexual ethics.

of course it's an open question, when reading Utopia, to what extent More shares the opinions of the narrator. it's one which will probably never be solved. it seems pretty clear that he wasn't particularly a fan of the mores of early-modern England, but to what extent did he see Utopia as an alternative- did he see it as desirable, or achievable, or both? did he view the injustices and iniquities of 16th century england as an inevitable result of the fall of man?

But this is what makes reading More so interesting, that debates over what he really meant and what his opinions about the ideal society really were, can go on forever and ever. It's part of why I think more students should read
More; also, of course, because he was one of the first people to describe an ideal society, and indirectly the origin of the utopian idea which has haunted the last few centuries. i think he was an immensely fascinating as well as influential person, and if there is going to be a Canon, he ought to be in it.

And no, of course he didn't die for 'Utopia', he died in protest of Henry's divorce*. I don't know whether he was right or not, but that doesn't take away from the admiration that I have for his courage. The moral courage that led him to stand up to Henry, also led him to write his masterwork. It's hard to imagine Shakespeare going to the gallows to protest something a sexual peccadillo of King James. (I don't know if he had them, but I've heard it rumored.)

(*Technically, of course, it was an annulment, not a divorce, and More wasn't objecting to annulments in principle, just to the idea of it being done without papal authority.)

The odd thing is that while it's probably reasonable not to have most students read Dryden and Pope or lots of others, as far as "diversity" goes in point-of-view and such, we're really rather shabbily tame. Dryden and Pope, if you actually understand them, are more alien to most college students than Achebe and (I suspect) Morrison, and if we really wanted students to grapple with alien POVs, we'd reach outside both the established canon and anyone published by the major publishers in the late 20th century. Give 'em determinedly anti-modern and such POVs -- anabaptists and Islamic discourses on purity, serious old-time Marxists and British Navy documents.

Fitz,

You don't need to be a Marxist to sympathize with the Guatemalan guerrillas. I think most people would acknowledge that they were on the right side in that war.

I haven't read Ms. Menchú's biography, but I have heard the allegations that it was in part false. Is it the alleged falsity you're referring to, or the literary quality? If it's the latter, what do you expect? I can't remember the last time I read a politician's autobiography that was anything less than abysmal. They can be highly influential, though. If it's the falsity, I dont know enough to comment.

"And no, of course he didn't die for 'Utopia', he died in protest of Henry's divorce*.

(*Technically, of course, it was an annulment, not a divorce, and More wasn't objecting to annulments in principle, just to the idea of it being done without papal authority.) "

Well "technically" as well as actually - he died for Christ.

Ultimately it was a matter of love

Marquis,

I actually agree with you there. Even more than Shakespeare, I would have students read the "City of God". It's essential to the very idea of thinking about meaning in history. and as meaningful to us today as it ever has been.

if there's one foundational text of western culture i would choose to save, it would be the 'City of God'. St. Augustine was actually a great literary stylist as well as everything else, and his description of the kingdom of heaven in Book 22 is sublimely beautiful, in much the same way as his description of the corruption of pagan Rome is withering in its contempt.

No real disagreement on More from me, Hector.

Any class on political history and theory that doesn't touch More is definitely missing something. I just suspect it's a book that would completely fly over the heads of most students in a general survey course. I guess I'm just fairly cynical about the whole enterprise of education, in a rather "non-conservative" (and non -liberal) way? Probably comes of spending too much time dabbling in university teaching.

Yes! _The City of God_ would be fantastic, if lunacy in ambition (it is read in political philosophy classes fairly often, I believe). Heck, might even get some students to quit reading their horoscopes.

"I don't think either skin color or subject matter have anything to say about the quality of a piece of writing, and that's only my opinion."

No, but that's not really the issue. There are a great many high-quality pieces of literature and even more that are considered to be masterpieces by some and trash by others. "Quality" is not a terribly useful metric and it certainly isn't the ONLY useful metric. Historical importance and cultural relevance also come into play. After you've read the major works of Shakespeare do you keep plowing through his lesser works or do you move on to the most important works of lesser authors? There are always going to be trade-offs.

The issue at hand is whether a literary canon with only one skin color and a limited range of subject matter is as valuable as a canon with a broader range of styles and perspectives that includes works of controversial quality.

Personally, I don't think skin color should matter at all to anyone. But it does. An American Literature canon without any black authors at all wouldn't tell us very much about what it means to be an American. And a literary canon consisting exclusively of writings about the manners of the English Upper Classes would be filled with great works, but it wouldn't tell us very much about why we should still care about literature today.

I agree with all of the above about City of God. I'm a Secularist, but that one's indispensable.

Hector Dauphin-Gloire

"You don't need to be a Marxist to sympathize with the Guatemalan guerrillas."

well its not a matter of sympathy, its a matter of what we teach in our universities.

"Is it the alleged falsity you're referring to, or the literary quality?"

Both

"If it's the latter, what do you expect? I can't remember the last time I read a politician's autobiography that was anything less than abysmal.

She not a politician, her sole claim to fame is her autobiography. It has proven to entail multiple falsehoods.

My point was that it is assigned reading due to its Marxist/ feminist ideology.

Not due to either its credibility or literary value.

marquis,

it is fair to ask whether anyone is excluded from among the canon makers. remember, I am not enamoured of the whole idea of the canon, but assuming that we are going to engage in the act of selecting a body of great literature through the ages, you would want the decisionmakers to have familiarity with a body of work (leaving aside how you would define the body of work) and to be willing to engage in good faith in the exercise. Would we demand that they consider or not consider certain qualities in making their judgment?

Case in point. I am not totally enamoured of Toni Morrison, but I find that her writing possesses a rhythm and a cadence which is wonderful. I think that quality is what draws people to her work and I think it is a quality which Bill doesn't get at all (which is why he assumes her inclusion in the canon is a form of affirmative action). Is that quality of literature as music -- that way of feeling the spoken word -- a legitimate criteria? It is why I read and why books give me pleasure. Garcia Marquez, Faulkner -- they are at the heart of my canon because their words are music.

Is that a legitimate consideration? Who gets to say?

Sophie -- I think that's a perfectly reasonable consideration. "We" get to say.

I wonder if I should actually read Morrison. I'm trying to think of a writer I very much like who thinks highly of her, which is one of my prioritization methods.

I don't want to get this wonderfully interesting thread off the main topic, but I'd like to throw in a topic, to be answered by whoever would like (especially the more frequent commenters, whose insights I have appreciated).
What about arguments that a more recent author should be removed from the "canon"? If an individual believes that an author is undeserving of such respect, what is the proper way to challenge his/her inclusion?
For example, I have always thought that William Faulkner was extremely overrated. Maybe it's just a personal limitation, but I never "got" him, and I don't think I'm unintelligent, uncultured, or unsophisticated. There are plenty of difficult authors who I enjoy and can penetrate. Faulkner never reached me.
Now is that a completely personal eccentricity? I've known others who (reluctantly) acknowledged that Faulkner didn't do anything for them either. I've heard similar comments made about Joyce, but he is one major author I have never attempted and was never assigned.
But some might argue that the weight of critical opinion is that Faulkner belongs in the canon (at least a modern canon). And perhaps people who share my taste nevertheless should read him, because he is an essential part of our literary heritage.
Frankly, I consider Morrison to be a far better writer than Faulkner. (For the purposes of the discussion, I'll state that I'm Caucasian.) I thought Tar Baby, a lesser known work of hers, was full of power and impact, although not necessarily great literature. But Faulkner, who is supposed to be great literature, seems to me to be an emperor with no clothes on. I'm well aware that this would be regarded as heresy by many.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but what do others think? Aside from multicultural issues, what should be done to "tweak" the canon if it includes authors who are overrated? And what should college students (and others) aspire to if they read a "classic" author and don't see the value?
Also, feel free to name some other authors who perhaps don't belong in the canon, despite their critical acclaim.

Hi all. I posted on this at my blog, www.bustedhalo.com/bustedblog. Here are some thoughts:

There is the question of literary quality, and then also the question–which Charles Taylor tackles well in Multiculturalism–of whether a Tolstoy proper could come from the Zulus (Saul Bellow famously and allegedly said that he would love to read the Zulus if they ever produced a Tolstoy). A Zulu genius (says Taylor) would not develop as a Russian one would, so he or she would not be recognized as a Tolstoy. One would have to get to know that culture well enough to know if this work was brilliant or not. So quality is a trickier subject. But cultural inclusion, if for nothing beyond pragmatic purposes, seems a good idea.

Which is why the death of a canon is all the more lamentable–the “multiple modes of inquiry” tracks produce even more division in the professions, the academy, and the educated elite. We need common experiences to unite us (even if it’s literature’s surrogate experience), and I don’t see why that couldn’t be reading about this one kid named Macon Dead III, and how he tried to fly.

TMoC writes: "I think if they emerge from college without some at least slightly-in-depth reading of (A) the major plays of Shakespeare and (B) the King James Bible, students will be ill-prepared should they decide to get a grip on their literary heritage later on. Not knowing Hamlet and (say) David and Bathsheba leaves you generally adrift, and even the particular language in these cases is important to getting other works."

The KJV is hardly necessary college material. I took a couple of Religious Studies courses and we didn't use the KJV, which most of us were already familar with. Of course a knowledge of Judeo-Christian mythology is necessary, but then so is a knowledge of the Greco-Roman myths.

Since most of the bible - no matter which translation you use - is tedious repetitive crap, I think the merits of the KJV are overblown. I realize it's considered the only version that matters by nutjob fundies, but I'm not seeing it.

Fitz writes: "Academics are all such preening narcissists (intellectually) that few of them feel obligated to do the heavy lifting of passing on our cultural heritage."

That's such an obviously stupid and wrong comment that it makes me wonder what cow college Fitz went to. I have fond memories of many professors whose love for their subject and zeal for sharing it was stunning. I'm sorry Fitz was unable to find any such teachers - or if he was, even sorrier that he pisses on their profession in such a dishonest, Coulteresque fashion.

Moe --

No, no, not because of nutjob fundies (I'm Catholic, and partial to the New Jerusalem Bible, myself). KJV is useful because so much pre-1950 writing in English uses phrases (especially titles and such) lifted straight from the KJV. Just the Judeo-Christian mythology isn't enough, really, if you want to get "tares and wheat" or other things often phrased in the peculiar (if often nicely rounded) phrases of the KJV. Of course most is tedious and repetitive -- one does not run across many literary allusions to the depths of Chronicles and the like, while the particular phrasings of Genesis and the Gospels show up all over the place in English literature.

question: it's not crazy, but I think you're wrong about Faulkner. Did you try _As I Lay Dying_? It's quite funny, for one thing.

Moe,

I've never particularly 'gotten' the KJV-mania either (I prefer the Revised Standard version myself), but apparently the idea is that it is, as a literary work, supposed to be very beautiful.

In my experience the people you would probably consider 'nutjob fundies' (I don't know a whole lot of them) tend to use the New International Version, which is written in modern, simple language, and which I personally don't like. (I think the RSV has a good mix of meaning and poetry). The only person I know who strongly prefers the KJV is an Anglo-Catholic clergyman.

If you tried to explain your personal moral code and vision of a good society, I suspect it would have much (knowingly or unknowingly) that was borrowed from the Christian worldview, or at least from the medieval Christian conception of natural law. I would suspect that's the case for most of us. To live in the modern world is in large part to have been influenced by the christian narrative.

Incertus:

along with a good chunk of contemporary stuff, most of which will probably never make the canon, but will hopefully speak to them in a way that Dryden might not.

I feel obliged to say once again that the goal of studying literature, or making people study it, is not to find works that "speak to" the student. You're a teacher, right? So teach. We're supposed to be teaching students how to speak a language they don't yet know. Not delivering them something already in their own vernacular. They should be meeting Dryden more than halfway, not the other way around. It depresses me somewhat that that needs pointing out. Dryden made wonderful translations of Virgil and Ovid. Do you think those contributions should/could be made to "speak to" the modern student?

Case in point. I am not totally enamoured of Toni Morrison, but I find that her writing possesses a rhythm and a cadence which is wonderful. I think that quality is what draws people to her work and I think it is a quality which Bill doesn't get at all (which is why he assumes her inclusion in the canon is a form of affirmative action).

Neat bit of extrapolating, sophie. Whatever her musical gifts, I find her writing self-conscious and artificial. JMO.

Is that quality of literature as music -- that way of feeling the spoken word -- a legitimate criteria? It is why I read and why books give me pleasure. Garcia Marquez, Faulkner -- they are at the heart of my canon because their words are music.

Of course it's a legitimate criterion. What do you think the great poets are about if not language as music? Nobody's taking issue with "your" canon. Nobody's dictating what The Canon is. It will be what it will be. It's probably too early to say whether Toni Morrison will live on through the ages as a Great Author. I personally don't see it but I'm willing to be wrong. Just because she's being assigned in some lit classes within her own lifetime doesn't say a thing about the long term. Check out who was assigned 20-30 years ago. And I'm all for professors opting to teach Toni Morrison or anyone else they feel is important or great. I feel they err when they do so *at the expense of* certain older, greater writers, from a curriculum standpoint, and that's just my opinion. Your original "dead white men" remark I felt was indicative of that sort of knee-jerk compensating, or false parity (though I take it you've half disowned it by now). Affirmative action? She doesn't need it, she's hugely popular and Oprah loves her. No one faction has any say over her ultimate acceptance into the "literary canon." I mean she's already in Everyman right? So it's a done deal? Nobody knows how these things ultimately play out. J.S. Bach was very respected, then mostly forgotten, then lionized again. Ditto Shakespeare.

In response to "question":

Some people are of the opinion no work under 100 years old or so should be required reading in the study of a given culture/society's body of literature. Entirely unrealistic, but understandable in a way. And no Canon is going to be airtight from criticism, however long we wait to digest its contents. Obviously modern/avant garde writers like Faulkner and Joyce pose some "novel" (wink) difficulties; most of the older canonical authors don't challenge our normative (hardwired?) literary sensibilities as provocatively. But modernism & postmodernism are unavoidable and undeniably important movements in literature, and they're going to have to be represented by somebody. But as for "tweaking" the canon it's impossible and pointless. Canons evolve by collective will, and sometimes there's a pretty thin thread tying the literary greatness, or common expression of humanity, of a Faulkner to that of Shakespeare or Chaucer. Ideally all works in a canon have some unmistakable greatness in common, usually expressed as an ability to enrich the understanding and imagination of any age (since our central humanity is constant). I like to think that any Great Author would recognize, or could be made to recognize, the greatness of any other. Too ideal no doubt...

Anyway, I think there will never again be an Established Canon of English Literature for Students (if there ever truly was one). It's a noble idea, but one that ultimately founders on subjectivity. Great works will, however, continue to withstand the test of time and be read by at least somebody.

I'll just finally add that a Great Author has an unmistakably unique voice, too. I find a lot of the newer authors being hailed today as great have little that is original or unique or fresh about them. Mostly just old ideas in new clothes. I'm sure that's been the case in every age...

TMoC again: "I was using _Gatsby_ as an example of beautifully written prose, Moe -- that, and good Hemingway. Neither is awash in adjectives, both are fine-grained beautiful prose."

Fair enough. Since you had used the phrase "high quality" to describe them instead, I thought you were naming a third category in between Dickens & dreadful.

Hector replies: "I've never particularly 'gotten' the KJV-mania either (I prefer the Revised Standard version myself), but apparently the idea is that it is, as a literary work, supposed to be very beautiful.

In my experience the people you would probably consider 'nutjob fundies' (I don't know a whole lot of them) tend to use the New International Version, which is written in modern, simple language, and which I personally don't like. (I think the RSV has a good mix of meaning and poetry). The only person I know who strongly prefers the KJV is an Anglo-Catholic clergyman.

If you tried to explain your personal moral code and vision of a good society, I suspect it would have much (knowingly or unknowingly) that was borrowed from the Christian worldview, or at least from the medieval Christian conception of natural law. I would suspect that's the case for most of us. To live in the modern world is in large part to have been influenced by the christian narrative. "

Hector, American fundamentalists have made a cult in and of itself out of the KJV. I can only say that I've conversed with hundreds of them that claim it is the version of choice. The RSV is the one used in the college courses I mentioned earlier.

My personal worldview is a long way from medieval Christianity, since I regard the notion of an eternal hell as the most repugnant and stupid idea ever conceived by human beings. I'm sure you know that the Golden Rule precedes Christianity - you may disagree when I say that it is wholly superior to the Christian moral code.

It's pure arrogance for a Christian to think all that is good is "borrowed" from a religion which was a long way from original in the first place, and which contains so much that is disgusting. I suggest to you that if you're an orthodox Christian who thinks all non-Christians go to hell (or if you think most do, with very rare exceptions) your beliefs are about as close to insanity as any.

With all the outcry over Toni Morrison, I've yet to see any attempt to explain why her writing is supposedly so awful. The above "self-concious and artificial" comments, unelaborated, are the closest we've gotten, and they alone wouldn't pass in ninth grade, much less college. This does not instill in me confidence that her detractors here have learned much about literary analysis or composition from their own presumed studies of traditional canon.

Moe,

My Christianity is anything but orthodox (I probably without knowing it subscribe to various elements of about a dozen different heresies), and I don't think most non-Christians go to hell. I wasn't raised in a Christian family, and many of my friends, family, and people I most admire are not Christians. I think that no one will go to hell who doesn't explicitly choose to deny Jesus Christ (out of malice, not out of ignorance). If you have never seen anything to convince you that JC is divine, then I believe you will have that opportunity, if not in this life then in the life to come. Nobody will be tossed into hell who honestly couldn't bring themselves to believe in the existence of God.

(I should say that i don't believe God 'tosses' anyone into hell, rather He withdraws saving grace from those who don't want it, and allows them to sink into hell on their own accord.)

Someone who was really trying to convert you (which I'm not), might say that in your denial or an eternal hell, you're simply drawing from the Origenist heresy, and that you're still better termed a heretic, rather than an unbeliever, and that in fact all morally worthy doctrines are simply heresies, not denials, of Christianity, since Christ is the source of everything good. In other words, every seemingly self-sufficient doctrine that sets itself up against Christianity, inasmuch as it contains good within it, draws that good from what it shares with Christianity.

I would not make that argument, but rather simply say that it's possible to be a Christian and to disbelieve in eternal hell, like Origen did. (He also castrated himself, taking literally JC's line about eunuchs, which you may want to skip). St. Augustine devoted book 21 of the City of God to refuting those who denied the existence of Hell, which goes to show that even in AD 410, there were plenty of 'tender-hearted christians' around who denied Hell. I think they're wrong, but it certainly is possible to be a Christian and not believe in hell.

the golden rule may predate christianity, but it doesn't predate Christ (Who existed from eternity and who inspired men to think up the golden rule in the first place). i agree with simone weil, who said that effectively Christianity is big enough to enclude everything good that men and women have ever done. inasmuch as you are a good person, you are a follower of the church invisible, perhaps unwittingly.

i don't deny your experience, but i was under the impression that fundamentalists preferred the NIV. perhaps someone can enlighten the both of us?

I'm sympathetic to Sophie's criticisms of the discussion here. Almost all of the books that people have claimed are not worthy of being included in the canon are those by women or non-white or non-European writers. If all we are protesting is lack of literary quality, why should these especially cause such ire?

Many people seem to think that including writers for political or cultural reasons is wrong--that instead we should only measure them by some "pure" literary yardstick. There are a couple of glaring problems with this notion.

The first is that most of our notions of literary quality are contingent on our particular time and place--thus, what you learn in a literature class is how to appreciate a piece of art within the context in which it was created (and of course how that speaks to us now). This is as true of Ancient Greek literature as it is of the Russian novelists as it is of Japanese poetry. Thus, while it is possible to compare the literary worth of Morrison with Roth, it becomes pretty difficult to compare her with, say, Donne because of the differing standards by which we would judge their work.

The second problem is the silliness of the notion of a canon that ignores political and cultural ideas to focus on writerly literary quality. Many of the acknowledged great books of the canon--Aristotle and Kant are easy examples--have poor literary style but are still read because of the profundity of the authors. But more significantly, what is it that we are meant to be teaching in literature? How to write well? Appreciate a well-turned phrase? Or rather, the ability to understand, appreciate, and evaluate the insights of great writers? To think that literature is only about the "music" of the language (while not denying the importance of that element) would truly strip the canon of any importance.

Synonymous:

With all the outcry over Toni Morrison, I've yet to see any attempt to explain why her writing is supposedly so awful. The above "self-concious and artificial" comments, unelaborated, are the closest we've gotten, and they alone wouldn't pass in ninth grade, much less college. This does not instill in me confidence that her detractors here have learned much about literary analysis or composition from their own presumed studies of traditional canon.

Given that we're just blogging around exchanging opinions, "self-conscious and artificial" will have to do. I'm not going to use this space to bore anyone with a lengthy exegesis of Morrison's prose. I'm fine with you thinking that's a dodge; how you go about assessing the depth of other people's analytical skills is your own business. (I would suggest this isn't the place to do it.) At any rate if you're looking for Toni Morrison detractors who DO take the time, I'm sure (I know) they're many and only a Google away.

but mostly that American students were steeped in a culture of relativism where truth had become merely a matter of opinion.

They have been steeped in that culture because that view happens to be correct.

Shorter 90% of the commenters here: X woman or black writer is objectively bad; Y white male writer is clearly much better.

I just wonder what it must be like to be so powerfully in the grip of an ideological viewpoint that you can't even begin to challenge the tired stereotype of "she's only taught because she's black and a woman."

I feel obliged to say once again that the goal of studying literature, or making people study it, is not to find works that "speak to" the student. You're a teacher, right? So teach. We're supposed to be teaching students how to speak a language they don't yet know.

No. No, no, no.

Sabina's Hat:

Almost all of the books that people have claimed are not worthy of being included in the canon are those by women or non-white or non-European writers. If all we are protesting is lack of literary quality, why should these especially cause such ire?

I don't recall which non-white authors have been dissed in this thread other than Morrison, who was featured in Ross's post, but its worth remembering this is a discussion (or I thought it was) of the *English* literary canon, which kinda, you know, excludes a lot of non-white non-European authors.

The second problem is the silliness of the notion of a canon that ignores political and cultural ideas to focus on writerly literary quality. Many of the acknowledged great books of the canon--Aristotle and Kant are easy examples--have poor literary style but are still read because of the profundity of the authors.

That's changing the subject from literature (as art) to philosophy, which is judged by the quality of its thinking over its prose style. And nobody's saying "ignore political and cultural ideas."

But more significantly, what is it that we are meant to be teaching in literature? How to write well? Appreciate a well-turned phrase? Or rather, the ability to understand, appreciate, and evaluate the insights of great writers?

All of the above. Why the either/or construction?

To think that literature is only about the "music" of the language (while not denying the importance of that element) would truly strip the canon of any importance.

Nobody's saying it's only about the music.

As far as I know, most literature majors across the country are still taking courses based on the Norton Anthology.

I just think it's amazing that people who have no idea what is taught in undergraduate classes across the country still feel qualified to complain about those classes. Again-- easily 95% of what's taught in undergraduate English classes throughout the country is by white men. Easily. At the most liberal, "postmodern" colleges in the country, at Wesleyan, at Oberlin, at Sarah Lawrence and Berkeley and Amherst and (up until it folded) Antioch and Columbia and Vassar and every other college of mention, the vast, vast majority of what an undergrad will read is by straight, white men.

So how much is enough, Mr. Douthat? Bill? For you, the only acceptable answer is 100%. Sad.

Freddie:

Shorter 90% of the commenters here: X woman or black writer is objectively bad; Y white male writer is clearly much better.

*yawn*

I just wonder what it must be like to be so powerfully in the grip of an ideological viewpoint that you can't even begin to challenge the tired stereotype of "she's only taught because she's black and a woman."

Or, in her case, it could be kinda true. Seriously though, if you like, she's taught because she's an important modern writer who meets some minimum standard of literary quality. Good for her! Giving her equal time with Shakespeare and Jane Austen in an English lit class, however (the topic of this thread), makes her fair game to criticism, bub. I think you're working with your own tired stereotype: that anyone who calls into question Morrison's place in the literary canon must be an ivory tower racist.

So how much is enough, Mr. Douthat? Bill? For you, the only acceptable answer is 100%. Sad.

Don't know where you got that idea. If I'm arguing that race (or gender) shouldn't be a determining factor in what we teach to lit majors, I can't exactly turn around and say "they should all be white" can I?

Don't know where you got that idea. If I'm arguing that race (or gender) shouldn't be a determining factor in what we teach to lit majors, I can't exactly turn around and say "they should all be white" can I?

I notice that you don't dispute the fact that the average undergrad will go through his college career consuming, by a truly enormous margin, dead white men writers. So what do you have to complain about?

This is always the claim: "I'm not saying there shouldn't be black people in the Congress/at Harvard/at this corporation/in the canon. Perish the thought. It just so happens that I've weighed the merits of every black person, and they've all been found wanting. See? The fact that everyone I support for inclusion in Congress/at Harvard/at this corporation/in the canon is white doesn't mean my opinion is the product of racism. It just happens to be that every last black person is unqualified."

And, by the way, Toni Morrison is better at writing than you will ever be at anything in your life.

Oh, wait. *Yawn* Haha! I just yawned! My message board rhetoric is unstoppable.

Freddie,
Put words in my mouth and hurl personal insults all you want. I'm not interested.

Moe and Hector:

In my experience, the KJV has fallen out of favor with the younger evangelical set. It's been replaced by the NIV, which cuts away most of the flowery prose. Some also use the Geneva Study Bible, which I have never read but which I have heard is preferred by "neo-Calvinists." (n.b. I just made that term up, I doubt they refer to themselves that way).

That said, the KJV still has a lot of currency among older fundamentalists, so in my experience it really depends on the age group. In the very short period in my life where I attended an evangelical church (a mostly horrible experience partially saved by the fact that many of the people who I encountered were wonderful caring folks, even though I was doubly-doomed as a Catholic and believer in evolution (how you can argue that someone risks damnation by believing in God-inspired evolution, I'd love to know)), the readings at the services were from the KJV, but our bible study group (mostly college and grad students and recent graduates) all used the NIV. I prefer the Standard Revised, but I care at least as much about annotations as the language because I'm obsessed with the historical context. That said, I also think the prose is better than the NIV, which is a little flat and alternately bizarre at times.

I'd guess that there's likely an age difference between the two of you.

This has been an immensely interesting thread, by the way.

I notice that you don't dispute the fact that the average undergrad will go through his college career consuming, by a truly enormous margin, dead white men writers. So what do you have to complain about?

Lest it be thought I've avoided the issue: what do I have to complain about? Just a few nits here and there, already expressed (if you're interesting in engaging what I've actually said, as opposed to what you would have me say). And again, I'm not really interested in who's white and who isn't. It's not on my "agenda." You can interpret my supposed motives however you want to.

And again, I'm not really interested in who's white and who isn't. It's not on my "agenda."

Ok, but look-- that's commonly the claim of people in situations like this. The problem is, after they claim it, they side completely with the white norm, and continue to claim that they aren't engaging race. But if saying race isn't on your agenda always defaults to supporting the status quo then you are, in fact, engaging race. You can't choose to stand outside of this discussion. You are very much involved in a discussion on race right now, however uncomfortable that may be.

Look, Douthat is explicitly making a claim that Morrison and Woolf are merely the recipients of political correctness, that their work couldn't possibly be being appreciated on its own merits. So when you throw your voice into the mix, and support Douthat in denouncing Morrison, of course you're engaging race, at least tangentially.

My points are these:

1) the complaint that PC dreck is crowding out the great works by dead white males is nonsensical, because by an overwhelming margin, dead white males continue to dominate the reading lists of every college from Berkeley to Bob Jones U

2) Douthat and his supporters are so deeply invested in that narrative-- minority and women writers are only praised because of identity politics-- that he and they can't possibly give Morrison or others a fair reading; their opinions are dominated by their politics

3) Morrison, in my estimation, is way, way better than she is being treated here, which isn't surprising, considering she's being held up as a symbol of everything that's wrong with the university

4) The idea that being on college syllabi necessarily means a book is a "Great Work" is bizarre and counterproductive

5) The fact that we disagree should demonstrate the fundamental bankruptcy of "the Canon" as an enterprise.

And I have to say, look, your anger against Morrison is just out of all proportion. Sherwood Andersen gets taught all the time. Upton Sinclair. Wilkie Collins. Those guys are awful. Where's the protests against them? Where's your animus? If you're only motivated by the lack of quality being read in colleges, why is it always and only black or women writers who are condemned?

Freddie, I think you're basically over-interpreting my argument, and ballooning a few ad hoc remarks I've made into a systematic position I don't necessarily hold.

Ok, but look-- that's commonly the claim of people in situations like this. The problem is, after they claim it, they side completely with the white norm, and continue to claim that they aren't engaging race. But if saying race isn't on your agenda always defaults to supporting the status quo then you are, in fact, engaging race. You can't choose to stand outside of this discussion. You are very much involved in a discussion on race right now, however uncomfortable that may be.

That's fine, I accept. But I don't know how to state my belief other than I already have. I could easily turn this kind of argument back on you.

Look, Douthat is explicitly making a claim that Morrison and Woolf are merely the recipients of political correctness, that their work couldn't possibly be being appreciated on its own merits.

No. All works can be appreciated on their own merits. When discussing which works to include and which to exclude, the merits of course become relative.

So when you throw your voice into the mix, and support Douthat in denouncing Morrison, of course you're engaging race, at least tangentially.

Tangentially, and only because others have chosen to make it an (or the) issue (as I see it).

1) the complaint that PC dreck is crowding out the great works by dead white males is nonsensical, because by an overwhelming margin, dead white males continue to dominate the reading lists of every college from Berkeley to Bob Jones U

I haven't made this complaint. I'm against lesser writers crowding out greater ones, and I don't style them "dead white males" as you do. (Many of them are females.)

2) Douthat and his supporters are so deeply invested in that narrative-- minority and women writers are only praised because of identity politics-- that he and they can't possibly give Morrison or others a fair reading; their opinions are dominated by their politics

I don't know what your evidence is for Douthat being "so deeply invested." It sounds like polemical extrapolation to me. What does Ross stand to personally gain from refusing to give Morrison a fair reading?

3) Morrison, in my estimation, is way, way better than she is being treated here, which isn't surprising, considering she's being held up as a symbol of everything that's wrong with the university

No, she isn't "being held up as a symbol of everything that's wrong with the university." For me, she's suffering by comparison to more important writers. Such is the world of comp. lit.

4) The idea that being on college syllabi necessarily means a book is a "Great Work" is bizarre and counterproductive

I never advanced this notion.

5) The fact that we disagree should demonstrate the fundamental bankruptcy of "the Canon" as an enterprise.

I've even said as much in an earlier post. My words were: "Anyway, I think there will never again be an Established Canon of English Literature for Students (if there ever truly was one). It's a noble idea, but one that ultimately founders on subjectivity."

And I have to say, look, your anger against Morrison is just out of all proportion. Sherwood Andersen gets taught all the time. Upton Sinclair. Wilkie Collins. Those guys are awful. Where's the protests against them? Where's your animus? If you're only motivated by the lack of quality being read in colleges, why is it always and only black or women writers who are condemned?

Freddie, don't take a limited discussion that couldn't hope to be comprehensive and try to turn it into such. I'm not to be blamed for my failure to mention Sherwood Andersen. And I'm not "angry" at Toni Morrison. I wish her well, and am not the devil for saying she's no Jane Austen or whatever. I think she's over-rated; she's not the only one who is, hoo-ha.

Freddie,
I don't agree with you, but you make some important and interesting points.
Concerning the teaching of English, you said this: "[E]asily 95% of what's taught in undergraduate English classes throughout the country is by white men"
That wasn't my experience. Among the authors I read for college (I was not an English major, but took some excellent courses): Jane Austen, Virginia Woolf, Emily Dickenson, Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Harper Lee, George Eliot, Pearl Buck, George Sand, Kate Chopin, Carson McCullers, Eudora Welty, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Emily Bronte, Joyce Carol Oates, Amy Tan, and Sylvia Plath.
Concerning race, I think the difficulty in our assessment of the "English literary canon" is that by default you will of course have a majority of white males. Until recently, English was not considered a universal language. If you were to come up with a "Spanish literary canon," you would probably not find many whites. You will find Filipinos (Jose Rizal), Colombians (Gabriel García Márquez), Nicaraguans (Rubén Darío), Mexicans (Octavio Paz), Argentinians (Jorge Luis Borges), Chileans (Isabel Allende), etc.
I'm curious if the frustrations you express are similar when you confront the Western musical canon. That is where "95% white males" would be an accurate assessment of their dominance. So you have Palestrina, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Dvorak, Grieg, Mahler, Verdi, Puccini, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Bartok, Copland, etc. I don't think it makes any sense to blame this on "racism" or "sexism" (or the dominance of wealthy taste-makers, since so many of these composers could barely make a living). We could argue whether Scott Joplin belongs on this list, and no doubt he's a great composer for his own genre, but frankly, he just doesn't fit there.
Now a "canon" of jazz would be dominated by black musicians, including a large number of black females. White males would be few and far between. Then the argument could be whether Benny Goodman or Glenn Miller or Dave Brubeck belong in the canon. But as a white male I would not at all be offended, or take it personally, or assume bad motives, if the jazz canon does not have many white males. Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker belong in the canon, because they earned their right to be there. Dave Brubeck? Maybe, maybe not, but it isn't racism that keeps him out (if not).
But Freddie, something I think you are missing, for which I will refer you to my list of "classical" composers whose works no doubt belong in the canon: There is actually a lot of genuine diversity there. Handel was English, Mozart was Austrian, Beethoven was German, Tchaikovsky was Russian, Verdi was Italian. These are not all from the same culture of cut from the same cloth. And the fact that Germans and Austrians dominate the Western musical canon is not because there is an anti-Polish bias or anti-Czech bias. There are simply very few composers who deserve to be included in the canon who are Polish (other than Chopin), or Czech (other than Dvorak), or Finnish (other than Sibelius), etc.
Getting back to literature, I suppose what I'm saying, Freddie, in colloquial terms, is that you need to grow some thicker skin. There's lots of diversity in the English literary canon if you look for it, and tremendous wisdom that goes far beyond today's current fads and superficial tastes. Don't take it personally that there aren't more non-male and/or non-white writers in the canon. They simply haven't earned their place yet. Perhaps some day they will, on the strength of their work and not their skin or gender.

Handel was German!!!!!

(I know I know, he lived in London & wrote English oratorio etc etc). Just being pedantic.

btw, the response to Freddie is spot on.

Yes, you're right about Handel. I should have caught that. I'm a nit-picker for historical accuracy myself.
Maybe that shows an anti-English bias among the canon-makers after all. "The man" was keeping the English down!
Substitute Purcell, or maybe Vaughn Williams.
I hope that wasn't your only reaction to my comment, Bill! (I'm on your side, and have enjoyed your own comments immensely.)

Getting back to literature, I suppose what I'm saying, Freddie, in colloquial terms, is that you need to grow some thicker skin. There's lots of diversity in the English literary canon if you look for it, and tremendous wisdom that goes far beyond today's current fads and superficial tastes. Don't take it personally that there aren't more non-male and/or non-white writers in the canon. They simply haven't earned their place yet. Perhaps some day they will, on the strength of their work and not their skin or gender.

But I'm not the one complaining. That's the crux of the argument. Douthat is arguing here, as he has argued in the past (in his book, for one), that minority and woman writers are overrepresented in the academy because of politically correct identity politics. But that complaint is rendered ridiculous by an actual accounting of what is being taught at universities. I mean he implies above that Shakespeare isn't being taught at Harvard. That is simply absurd. I defy anyone to find a Harvard graduate with a BA who didn't read some Shakespeare. I defy anyone to find a Harvard English major who didn't read Milton or Chaucer or Dante or Pope. The "great writers" in the old sense, the sense that wouldn't include anyone outside of the status quo, are still being taught, at a frequency that dwarfs the "multi-culti" writers. I know! I'm teaching the freshmen now! And what truly galls is that Douthat has utterly written off the possibility that maybe, these writers actually have some positive quality. But he's so caught up in his "the white man can't get a break" narrative, he could never see that.

The relative paucity of great English composers (for so historically important a country) is a constant thorn in the Anglo's side. There's that distressing gap between Handel (co-opted -- really between Henry Purcell) and Elgar & V. Williams (neither of whom...etc). Really no one hands-down better than the short-lived Purcell, though Britten makes a run at it (whilst slavishly emulating him).

Most of what we have in the literary canon predates the establishment of popular higher education. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Coleridge, Austen, Dickens, Conrad et al. attained canonical status because a great many good readers read them, talked about them, alluded to them, etc. and because they were authors from whom later authors could receive inspiration and a sense of the possibilities of various literary forms. I may be mistaken, but I think well into the 20th century, most universities didn't include much, if indeed any, courses in authors that were more recent than a hundred years or so. My impression, for example, is that well into the 20th century, Oxford's English syllabus stopped at Wordsworth (a century earlier).

The academy, then, was a place to explore the canon (but it didn't make the canon).

There may be other reasons to include authors and books in literary studies (beyond exploring the canon), but does the widespread inclusion of a recent author make him or her "canonical"? I don't think so. The issue, then, as regards universities, is whether higher education will curb the natural proclivity of students for recent authors (who may be perceived as easier to read, more "cool," etc.) and emphasize works and authors to know whom is to know much that is integral with Western civilization itself. I'm persuaded that students need to study such works and authors, not that doing so will make them deeply acquainted with Western civilization, but that they'll get a start on what's really a lifelong project. Ideally we would not just read Homer, Virgil, Dante, Chaucer, Cervantes, but we would read them in the original languages. We could read the recent authors on our own or in the spontaneous
readinggroups that undergads used to form back when they were curious.

Freddie, maybe the crux of the argument isn't what's currently being taught at one of America's most elite and traditionally-minded universities (or am I misrepresenting Harvard at all). I certainly don't have any hard data on the topic, but suppose Allan Bloom wasn't being a Cassandra sans justification.

What Dale Nelson said.

this doesn't really have to do with the canon, but at my school (Tulane) we actually had english majors that didn't take Shakespeare, no histories, no comedies, no tragedies, nothing. I think they may have changed that since then to require WS, but I don't know that for a fact. Inevitable, some people didn't take Shakespeare because they were more interested in the (reputedly excellent) courses that were offered in carribean literature, native american literature, african literature, etc, or in cultural/literary/feminist "theory" or "studies" or whatever. Being a biochem major, I just took what I liked, which was a combo of Shakespeare and american lit pre- and post- civil war, but I did think that this was a bit of a joke.

Freddie writes: "And I have to say, look, your anger against Morrison is just out of all proportion. Sherwood Andersen gets taught all the time. Upton Sinclair. Wilkie Collins. Those guys are awful. Where's the protests against them? Where's your animus? If you're only motivated by the lack of quality being read in colleges, why is it always and only black or women writers who are condemned?"

Well, the answer to that is that conservatives like to slam academia as a tool of the left, and therefore those writers become victims of collateral damage. Just look at Fitz's silly fulminations.

Leave old Sherwood alone, though.

Freddie,
Your comment is in quotes, with my response(s) underneath.

"Douthat is arguing here, as he has argued in the past (in his book, for one), that minority and woman writers are overrepresented in the academy because of politically correct identity politics."

I for one agree with him. Minority and female writers are represented beyond the strength of their work, to the exclusion of greater writers who are white (males and females). There's nothing wrong with teaching Toni Morrison, or Maya Angelou, or Alice Walker, or Amy Tan. I consider them good (but not great) writers. Maybe I'm wrong and they are indeed great, and a century from now they will be ranked with Jane Austen or Emily Dickenson. Time (and only time, not present-day coercion) will tell. The problem I have (I won't speak for Ross) is when truly great writers are underemphasized or even cast aside. Maybe you don't agree with him, but I remember Jesse Jackson leading a chant of "Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western civ has got to go." I consider that obnoxious, ignorant, and counterproductive to an extreme. I don't agree with those who would replace great authors with lesser contemporaries because of a hostility towards Western civilization (which among other things has given us both the freedom of speech and the technology with which we can have this very conversation).

"But that complaint is rendered ridiculous by an actual accounting of what is being taught at universities. I mean he implies above that Shakespeare isn't being taught at Harvard. That is simply absurd."

Again, I won't speak for Ross. But I would say that Shakespeare, considering his greatness and his influence, is being grossly undertaught at Harvard and other high-ranking institutions.

"I defy anyone to find a Harvard graduate with a BA who didn't read some Shakespeare. I defy anyone to find a Harvard English major who didn't read Milton or Chaucer or Dante or Pope."

I can't produce any evidence, but since a "BA" can be in any of a large number of topical majors, I think it is almost a certainty that such Harvard graduates exist. For goodness sake, do you honestly think most college graduates read Milton anymore? How many college graduates in the U.S. have read "Paradise Lost" in its entirety. I didn't go to an Ivy League school, but I went to a good one, and Milton wasn't offered. Even an entire semester course on "Paradise Lost" can't possibly do it justice. (And most students don't even know the Biblical stories on which the poem is based.) And most students I knew were able to take courses in modern literature for their English lit requirement, so they could avoid Shakespeare altogether. I don't know if that's the case in Harvard or the Ivy League, but I assume so. Shakespeare (and Milton and Dante, etc.) is just not a requirement anymore.

I should add a tangential point: I took classical (koine) Greek for two years, and was one of four students out of thousands to do so. I don't blame anyone for this - other students have their own interests and priorities. But it troubled me that so few were interested in reading Plato (or the Gospel of John) in the original Greek. That, to me at the time, was a tragedy, because it means something very significant was being lost. It's amazing to me that the Greek professor could even keep his job, and I assume that was only because the university believed that the Greek classics were worth preserving for the students who cared, even though they could be counted on one hand.

"The "great writers" in the old sense, the sense that wouldn't include anyone outside of the status quo, are still being taught, at a frequency that dwarfs the "multi-culti" writers."

I don't know where you get the idea that these writers who make up the canon were part of the status quo. Many of the great writers who were popular in their day, like Twain or Dickens (or Hugo if you go beyond English lit), were attacking the status quo, not perpetuating it. I mentioned Plato above - his teacher Socrates was forced to commit suicide for going against the status quo (again, this is going beyond English lit). The conflict between the individual and the state is one of the great themes of Western civilazation and English literature. And even the great writers who might be considered to belong to the status quo (like Joseph Conrad, or like a woman named Jane Austen) still made subtle critiques.

Some authors who are clearly status quo, like Rudyard Kipling, are nevertheless worth reading for their literary merit and intelligence.

Some authors, like Shakespeare, are so truly great and profound that to speak of them in terms of the status quo is nonsensical.

"And what truly galls is that Douthat has utterly written off the possibility that maybe, these writers actually have some positive quality."

I didn't get that impression, and I think you are being over-sensitive. But a canon is not made up of works which merely have a positive quality. I think Morrison has numerous positive qualities, but I also think there are many writers from the past who deserve a college student's attention first. In fact (and I know this is going to offend), the more you read truly great literature, the more you can "see through" much of what passes for great literature today. I actually think Morrison is one of our better writers. (Maya Angelou is not. And Amiri Bakara sure as hell is not.) But did she really deserve the Nobel Prize? I don't think so.

"But he's so caught up in his "the white man can't get a break" narrative, he could never see that."

It isn't about giving a white man or any man a break. It's about quality. And if a work lacks quality, it should not be taught to college students in the place of works which have proven their high quality over time.

I recently read a John Grisham novel. It was a good read. Once in a while I read a mystery novel (I still think Agatha Christie was the best). I consider these books "rest for my soul." They don't challenge me that much, but they are usually clever, they demonstrate some skill, and they give me a diversion from my everyday pressures and responsibilities. But they aren't literature, and were never intended to be.

When an author creates a work, perhaps a novel or a poem or a play, and people argue that it should be taught as if it were great literature when it hasn't yet earned that distinction, don't be surprised if others say, "Wait a minute. Let's not be so quick." And don't assume the worst about a person like Ross who might respond, "Let me show you what a truly great author can produce." It's not about race or the status quo. Maybe Dickens had a few drops of Moorish blood in him. Who cares? "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times." That's great stuff, and people will be reading it for centuries.

Bill:

I haven't read Bloom's book, but my general understanding of his argument was that (one of) the purposes of the canon was to maintain a shared cultural heritage--which would go beyond just the English lit. canon to something like Western culture in general. The only point to having a canon is as the basis for a consistent curriculum across all (or most) subjects.

However, if you wish to focus only on the English language canon, even here it is worth pointing out that there are in fact many non-European (e.g. South African, Indian, Australian, Caribbean), non-white, or female authors that are relevant to this question.

Look, I don't doubt that you genuinely find Toni Morrison to be a not very good or interesting writer. I'm not arguing (here at least) that you should. The problem is this: we all have books that we think are brilliant that others don't appreciate as much and vice versa. However, in order to create a canon some basic level of consensus on literary standards is necessary. This creates a problem--why is it that book x, which seems to you so great according to these common literary standards seem to me to be pap.

In many cases we are willing to chalk this up to matters of taste (and I'm not presupposing non-objective standards here), or an appeal to future generations agreeing with me (or, crucially, we give up the necessary idea of common literary standards).

I think the ire comes in when you accuse those who like writers such as Toni Morrison (who is I take it standing for a whole group of female and black authors) of doing so because of her "skin color and subject matter" rather than the literary ("writing") quality of her novels (although I am still confused how subject matter is not part of this "writing quality"). However, I haven't heard anyone here suggest that the reason that Dickens (whom several have said they don't care for) is included in the canon was because he wrote about the poor and middle class rather than his writing quality. No, instead they acknowledge that maybe they haven't read his best work, or maybe they are deficent in their critical abilities.

In other words, it is often the case in these type of conversations that if someone doesn't like a proposed canonical writer that is not a DWM then it is claimed the reason that author is being put forward is because of cultural rather than literary reasons, whereas if it is Pynchon, or Sherwood Anderson (why would we complain about him again?), or Dickens an alternate literary reason is proposed.

As for your last point--I took your criticism of multi-culturalism to be that it included "non-writerly" qualities such as cultural ideas and subject matter in evaluation of what books to teach. If this is not your disagreement, then beyond a general discontent with the inclusion of some books you don't like I don't understand what your problem is.

In other words, one thing I was groping to say was that I think, sure, much of the conflict in the Canon Wars had to do with politics; but it was also mixed up with the dropping of languages as essential for the truly educated person. You can simply read some of the writing from early in the 20th century, in which authors were not writing for a tiny group, yet they could assume that one could leave untranslated swatches of Latin, French, German, and Italian, and even Classical Greek. And I'm saying that if languages are basic for an Education, then one of the things that canonical works and authors do is serve as the matter for such studies. One learned Greek in order to be able to read Plato in the original, and one studied Plato by way of getting to know Greek, etc.

But the idea of such literacy seems to have died out. We have hosts of people with Ph.Ds who really read comfortably only English and maybe, maybe, one other modern language, e.g. French. (I write this as someone who reads only English.) With one's linguistic knowledge so limited (to one or two modern languages), one naturally will be drawn to teach modern works in one's own language and to want to talk about them with one's professorial peers.

Bill asks: "I don't know what your evidence is for Douthat being "so deeply invested." It sounds like polemical extrapolation to me. What does Ross stand to personally gain from refusing to give Morrison a fair reading?"

It may not be personal - it's just business. Ross, after all, has a book to sell which is about "political correctness" at Harvard. It's disingenuous to pretend he's some sort of neutral arbiter of all that is good and holy.

That's my job.

Sabina's Hat:

I think the ire comes in when you accuse those who like writers such as Toni Morrison (who is I take it standing for a whole group of female and black authors)

No, she is not standing for anyone but herself!

of doing so because of her "skin color and subject matter" rather than the literary ("writing") quality of her novels (although I am still confused how subject matter is not part of this "writing quality").

Let's be careful about what I am and am not saying. *Liking* Toni Morrison for a host of unassailable reasons which all boil down to personal taste is dandy; elevating her literary importance in the college curriculum, for political reasons, in a very crowded field, ain't. I'm as free to have my opinion about whether that's an accurate description, and how appropriate or necessary it is, as anybody else.

However, I haven't heard anyone here suggest that the reason that Dickens (whom several have said they don't care for) is included in the canon was because he wrote about the poor and middle class rather than his writing quality.

Probably because no one who knows anything about Dickens' writing actually dreamed that could be the case.

No, instead they acknowledge that maybe they haven't read his best work, or maybe they are deficent in their critical abilities.

Well I'll just say this. No, Dickens decidedly IS NOT a canonical English author because of his attention to the poor & middle classes, i.e. subject matter. I'd dare anyone to argue he is. This conversation isn't about whether so-and-so likes or dislikes Dickens. For all his "foibles" -- I'm aware of them too; everyone who's ever read him is -- he's unquestionably one of the greatest and most inventive wordsmiths in the history of English literature. If English Lit is to be for anything, it should be for teaching the authors who literally reshaped the language, bent it into the service of their own unique minds - and Dickens is beyond a doubt one of the most noteworthy for this gift. I'll lay it all on the line and call that the objective truth, as the bags and bags of Dickens quotes in Bartlett's attest. His influence, his success at permeating the culture, are above dispute. Even if you don't like his style or are bored by him! He's unavoidable. Maybe Toni Morrison will come to be seen as such, too. I'm not banking on it.

Response to Freddie writes: "Again, I won't speak for Ross. But I would say that Shakespeare, considering his greatness and his influence, is being grossly undertaught at Harvard and other high-ranking institutions."

I suspect very few people get in to Harvard and other high-ranking institutions without already being familiar with Shakespeare. I know that as an AP English student in the late '70s I had read a solid selection of the plays (and the sonnets as well). I'm fairly certain the AP exam was Shakespeare-heavy as well.

This won't satisfy the traditionalist drumbeaters here, but they're being a little silly. George Orwell was educated at Eton and never went on to university, but he seems to have attained a successful education somehow. The same sort of "abbreviated" education was common among many of the canon authors themselves.

This won't satisfy the traditionalist drumbeaters here, but they're being a little silly. George Orwell was educated at Eton and never went on to university, but he seems to have attained a successful education somehow. The same sort of "abbreviated" education was common among many of the canon authors themselves.

The George Orwells of the world aren't anyone's concern. Genius always rises to the top. This argument is whether you care about our society sharing a sense of common literary heritage. If I were Italian I'd be upset about the younger generations forgetting about Italian opera. As an English-speaker I wouldn't want to see Shakespeare consigned to virtual irrelevance in the name of relativism. I don't know to what extent it's already happened, but I'm against it.

Bill writes: "For all his "foibles" -- I'm aware of them too; everyone who's ever read him is -- he's unquestionably one of the greatest and most inventive wordsmiths in the history of English literature. If English Lit is to be for anything, it should be for teaching the authors who literally reshaped the language, bent it into the service of their own unique minds - and Dickens is beyond a doubt one of the most noteworthy for this gift. I'll lay it all on the line and call that the objective truth, as the bags and bags of Dickens quotes in Bartlett's attest. His influence, his success at permeating the culture, are above dispute. Even if you don't like his style or are bored by him! He's unavoidable."

Wow. Just wow. Bill uses "unquestionably," "beyond a doubt," "objective truth," "above dispute," and "unavoidable" in just this small sample. That's FIVE BULLSHIT TERMS - terms used in place of actual argument. A stunning achievement in so small a space.

Bill replies: "The George Orwells of the world aren't anyone's concern. Genius always rises to the top. This argument is whether you care about our society sharing a sense of common literary heritage. If I were Italian I'd be upset about the younger generations forgetting about Italian opera. As an English-speaker I wouldn't want to see Shakespeare consigned to virtual irrelevance in the name of relativism. I don't know to what extent it's already happened, but I'm against it."

Well, bully for you. Let me know when you do know whether the nightmare you're trembling about ever shows up. Meanwhile everyone who has contributed to this thread seems to share a common literary heritage, so I think you're worrying about nothing.

Hold on...Back Up!!!
(did I just read Freddie respond to the statement )

"but mostly that American students were steeped in a culture of relativism where truth had become merely a matter of opinion."

With the retort....
"They have been steeped in that culture because that view happens to be correct."

That itself (the above) is anything but a relativist statement. On the contrary, it is itself a truth claim.

Sabina again:

However, in order to create a canon some basic level of consensus on literary standards is necessary. This creates a problem--why is it that book x, which seems to you so great according to these common literary standards seem to me to be pap.

I've made this point more than once, but here goes again. We already have a canon. Yes, books find their way into it over time. What's to be avoided, imo, is discarding or overlooking established canonical works in favor of the flavor of the time. The flavor of the time will always be read by many people, often many more than read the musty old greats. But we're talking about what to teach people about English literature, which is a very old subject matter by now. It's history hasn't changed: Chaucer is still Chaucer and Shakespeare is still Shakespeare, and the influence & importance are both established and ongoing. Therefore, you keep teaching them. And the many others of comparable status. Toni Morrison? She can't hope to claim that status for a good while. Contemporary American Lit survey? Great! General English Lit survey? Not so much!

Wow. Just wow. Bill uses "unquestionably," "beyond a doubt," "objective truth," "above dispute," and "unavoidable" in just this small sample. That's FIVE BULLSHIT TERMS - terms used in place of actual argument. A stunning achievement in so small a space.

Go ahead. Argue the other side about Dickens' importance to English lit, Moe.

Well, bully for you. Let me know when you do know whether the nightmare you're trembling about ever shows up. Meanwhile everyone who has contributed to this thread seems to share a common literary heritage, so I think you're worrying about nothing.

Gee, Moe, maybe "everybody reading this thread" is about the farthest thing from a representative sample of the American college student imaginable.

Bill quotes and writes: "Wow. Just wow. Bill uses "unquestionably," "beyond a doubt," "objective truth," "above dispute," and "unavoidable" in just this small sample. That's FIVE BULLSHIT TERMS - terms used in place of actual argument. A stunning achievement in so small a space.

Go ahead. Argue the other side about Dickens' importance to English lit, Moe."

Why would I do that? Dickens isn't my cup of tea, but he is a Very Important and Influential author and I have no problem with his position in the mythical Canon. But if you can't see the problem with your method of argument, Bill, you've been poorly served by your own past instructors, whoever they were and no matter how much Dickens they fed you.

Bill retorts: "Gee, Moe, maybe "everybody reading this thread" is about the farthest thing from a representative sample of the American college student imaginable."

I don't think it has been corrections officers or business majors who have been maintaining your beloved Canon all these years, Bill. The appreciation of Great Books has always been the pursuit of a small percentage of society. Yet somehow the tradition has endured.

It's not threatened by the constant evaluation of new writers and their possible place in the Pantheon, either - that process is absolutely necessary. This is unquestionably objectively true and is above dispute and beyond a doubt.

wow Fitz, you really got Freddie there. Of course, of course, it is just so obvious that anyone who believes that aesthetic criteria are culturally relative can't believe in any form of truth at all. Why their heads would explode! Yep, if only Freddie had read his Augustine he'd realize just what a simple elementary error he was making.

But if you can't see the problem with your method of argument, Bill, you've been poorly served by your own past instructors, whoever they were and no matter how much Dickens they fed you.

Okay, to appease his Moe-ness, I was to have undertaken a systematic, substantive defense of my opinions about Dickens' quality as a writer and his place in the canon. A thousand apologies.
A dissertation will be forthcoming.

I don't think it has been corrections officers or business majors who have been maintaining your beloved Canon all these years, Bill. The appreciation of Great Books has always been the pursuit of a small percentage of society. Yet somehow the tradition has endured.

Complacent much? It used to be the pursuit of a large percentage of people who would call themselves educated, which was Bloom's point. Point of debate, anyway.

It's not threatened by the constant evaluation of new writers and their possible place in the Pantheon, either - that process is absolutely necessary. This is unquestionably objectively true and is above dispute and beyond a doubt.

No, it's threatened by damned effete relativists and political activists.

Hugo,

thanks for your comments. from Moe's comments, I gather he is about 20 years older than me, so yes, probably a generational differece in the habits of American evangelicals. and the NIV has really done a hatchet job on the bible.

The reason I've been harping on this theme of subject matter and theme vs. literary artistry, is because I think it is related to the question of whether we should update the canon. I think that the ultimate importance of a work of art lies not just in its literary craftsmanship, but in the power of its ideas and its vision of life. In light of how important racial conflict has been in our history, and how important a role African American people have played in our culture and history, I think that if we don't hear from any African American voices in our college literature programs, we are doing a disservice to the students of today. It's important to know something about the African American experience in America, and to a large extent Song of Solomon was written not just to express Morrison's ideas, but the whole struggle for identity of an entire cultural group. that's part of the reason why it should be taught.

compare it to the Rape of the Lock, really, do compare it. One is about the African American struggle for identity, the other is about.....what, exactly? Which one will people remember when they're thirty years out of college? I don't even remember anything about the Rape of the Lock; when I read it in high school AP English, even my teacher acknowledged it wasn't really about anything, he was just including it because of the beauty of the language. Really, if we have to choose between Song of Solomon or the rape of the lock, the choice seems pretty straightforward.

maya angelou is grossly overrated, i would agree.

Bill quotes and writes: "It's not threatened by the constant evaluation of new writers and their possible place in the Pantheon, either - that process is absolutely necessary. This is unquestionably objectively true and is above dispute and beyond a doubt.

No, it's threatened by damned effete relativists and political activists."

I think it's cute when wingnuts do their Spiro Agnew impressions while quivering over imaginary dangers.

Every conservative I know is a relativist, they're just unwilling to admit it. The deep, deep fear that some students somewhere might be reading books by Negroes or Homos rather than Great Undying Selections from the Bill-approved Canon of Undeniable Unquestionable Unavoidables must weigh heavily on you, Bill. You must be Ever Vigilant and, uh, politically active yourself in order to overcome it.

Shakespeare's not In Love, he's In Trouble! And Bill will save him! Excelsior!

Hector writes: "compare it to the Rape of the Lock, really, do compare it. One is about the African American struggle for identity, the other is about.....what, exactly? Which one will people remember when they're thirty years out of college? I don't even remember anything about the Rape of the Lock; when I read it in high school AP English, even my teacher acknowledged it wasn't really about anything, he was just including it because of the beauty of the language. Really, if we have to choose between Song of Solomon or the rape of the lock, the choice seems pretty straightforward."

Funny stuff. I draw a blank on the Raped Lock, too.

There are a slew of literary works used chiefly as instructional tools in methods of rhetoric, and it may not matter much which ones students are exposed to. Lytton Strachey's biographical works are another example.

Re: I don't think it's controversial that a good many of the writers celebrated by the academic conservatives, are favored in large part, not because they were rich white men, but because their ideas were congenial to the power structure of their time and today

Aristophanes who satyrized the Athenian war effort and Euripides whose plays indicted both brutality in war and religious chicanery. Petronius whose (fairly obscene) work lampooned the pretenses of the Roman upper classes. Dante who loacted all manner of political and ecclesial leaders in various circles of hell. Moliere whose "Tartuffe" was banned as anti-religious. Voltaire whose criticism of both monarchy and religion was unrelenting. Marx who...
Well, you get the meaning. The traditional canon contains plenty of social criticism. Not every work of course, but why should it? Surely there are themes in the world and stories worth telling that have nothing to do with social struggle. At least I hope so. Politics isn't everything.

I wonder what recent authors will make it into the "canon". People in here keep talking about early twentieth century authors, but what about the second half of the century? Pynchon? Morrison? Tennessee Williams? I prefer Gore Vidal to all of them, but I don't think he'll be remembered a hundred years from now.

Bill:
I don't think you are addressing what I am saying. So let me make it clear. It seems to me you are making two claims:
1) Toni Morrison is taught in English lit survey courses for reasons other than literary quality.
2) The canon of English lit should include only writers of established influence through time, thus necessitating a certain (unspecified) length of time before induction.

Addressing (1): So far you have provided no evidence for this conclusion beyond your own unsupported response to her novels. This is not very convincing as you are proposing a revisionist view of her influence and quality and have provided no reason for me to accept your response as being in any way authoritative.

However, what riles people up is not your claim to dislike Morrison's books, but your further claim that she is taught so frequently because she is a black female (as you say, because of "skin color and subject matter"). This is not a claim about Morrison, but rather about the English profs who include her in their syllabi. You are saying that there is a systematic bias to include writers of lesser quality because of their (generalizing appropriately I hope) minority status (which, protestations to the contrary, would mean that she in fact does stand in this discussion for a host of other writers).

I have two responses. First, it seems to me that if you were being consistent you should not have a significant problem with including political and subject matter criteria in our canon evaluation. After all, if the main metric is influence, it is undeniable that many writers are influential at least in part for these reasons (this is why Harriet Beecher Stowe is still read).

Second, it is pretty disrespectful of other people. I can't really get into Saul Bellow much. I've read a couple of his books, started a couple others, and really just don't appreciate him. However, I realize that others find him an amazingly skillful and profound writer. If, instead of arguing on the merits (or demerits) of his novels I made the claim that fans of his work are either lying (claiming it is better than they actually think it is), or only support it for narrow parochial reasons (perhaps they are natives of Chicago), then I not making argument against the book, but against its fans. And that seems to me a poor way to discuss literature.

Addressing (2): This is the more interesting claim, and the one to which I am more sympathetic. Ultimately however, I tend to think that it is overly conservative--that in fact it is more valuable to have people read newer works instead of some older ones. I would be curious to hear what Bill's thoughts on the importance of the representativeness of an author for canon inclusion. In drawing up syllabi, this seems like a more important element in my choosing whom to include.

Moe:
We get it. You're a caricaturist. Homos and Negros? Quivering over imaginary dangers? Go find someone else to be your straw man.

Sabina:

1) Toni Morrison is taught in English lit survey courses for reasons other than literary quality.

Toni Morrison has some literary quality, just not enough to place her at or near the forefront of English lit surveys, IMO. So therre must some additional motivations. IMO.

2) The canon of English lit should include only writers of established influence through time, thus necessitating a certain (unspecified) length of time before induction.

Well, that's kind of the definition of a literary canon.

Addressing (1): So far you have provided no evidence for this conclusion beyond your own unsupported response to her novels. This is not very convincing as you are proposing a revisionist view of her influence and quality and have provided no reason for me to accept your response as being in any way authoritative.

Okay.

However, what riles people up is not your claim to dislike Morrison's books, but your further claim that she is taught so frequently because she is a black female (as you say, because of "skin color and subject matter"). This is not a claim about Morrison, but rather about the English profs who include her in their syllabi.

Ya think?

You are saying that there is a systematic bias to include writers of lesser quality because of their (generalizing appropriately I hope) minority status (which, protestations to the contrary, would mean that she in fact does stand in this discussion for a host of other writers).

I don't know how systematic it is, but I don't know how else to explain Toni Morrison's presence alongside Shakespeare et al.

I have two responses. First, it seems to me that if you were being consistent you should not have a significant problem with including political and subject matter criteria in our canon evaluation. After all, if the main metric is influence, it is undeniable that many writers are influential at least in part for these reasons (this is why Harriet Beecher Stowe is still read).

I said it was one consideration, but shouldn't outweigh certain others. Not that controversial.

Second, it is pretty disrespectful of other people. I can't really get into Saul Bellow much. I've read a couple of his books, started a couple others, and really just don't appreciate him. However, I realize that others find him an amazingly skillful and profound writer. If, instead of arguing on the merits (or demerits) of his novels I made the claim that fans of his work are either lying (claiming it is better than they actually think it is), or only support it for narrow parochial reasons (perhaps they are natives of Chicago), then I not making argument against the book, but against its fans. And that seems to me a poor way to discuss literature.

This is just too thin-skinned. I never said her fans were lying or anything about their reasons for liking her; that's absurd. I don't really care why or whether general readers like Toni Morrison! They're welcome to. I expressed my personal dislike of her work (which is as "disrespectful" as any other contrary statement of opinion I guess) and made a statement about what might be included in a general survey course instead of her. Deal with it.

Addressing (2): This is the more interesting claim, and the one to which I am more sympathetic. Ultimately however, I tend to think that it is overly conservative--that in fact it is more valuable to have people read newer works instead of some older ones. I would be curious to hear what Bill's thoughts on the importance of the representativeness of an author for canon inclusion. In drawing up syllabi, this seems like a more important element in my choosing whom to include.

If we're talking about the canon of English literature, I'm for including as many of the major authors who are already in it and have been for some time (i.e. more than one generation ago) as possible. If a course throws Morrison into the mix but leaves out Eliot or Melville, I say boo. I'm basically against including contemporary authors at all. Do you need more specifics than that?

Bill:

Tell me how you combine these two statements:

"I never said [Morrison's] fans were lying or anything about their reasons for liking her"

and your agreement with my characterization of your claim that Morrison is taught because she is a black female. Is your argument that the English profs who teach her are not people who also appreciate her work (and so your speculation as to their motives are not relevant)? Or that the opinions of the educated public is irrelevant in deciding the importance of an author?

It seems to me that you are trying to insult the motives of lit teachers, but then act aggrieved and innocent when they defend themselves. Yeah, actually you did say more than just that you didn't like Toni Morrison much--earlier in the very same comment you acknowledged as much.

As for your claim about the canon--what do you think is the purpose of general english lit survey courses? Is it just the passing on of a standard list of great writers?

BTW, as for your charge that I'm being too thin-skinned, respect is not a matter of personal offense, but a way of upholding the standards of humanistic discourse. I'm assuming we can both value those.

Every conservative I know is a relativist, they're just unwilling to admit it.

You must not know many conservatives. Actually, unless you know a very odd group of people (only hang out in the wilder realms of certain anthro departments or something), you probably don't know very _relativists_ at all. You know people with some relativistic tendencies, and other very absolutist ones, who (at most) don't have a very good metaphysic for supporting the absolutist bits.

I'd stick Enright/Moncrieff's Proust _translation_ into the canon, and if it took some nonsense about gay representativeness to do it, I'd be all for it.

I think that if we don't hear from any African American voices in our college literature programs, we are doing a disservice to the students of today.

Well, Ralph Ellison and James Baldwin are probably pretty good candidates for canonization if you admit contemporary folks at all, I think.

mad6798j asks: "I wonder what recent authors will make it into the "canon". People in here keep talking about early twentieth century authors, but what about the second half of the century? Pynchon? Morrison? Tennessee Williams? I prefer Gore Vidal to all of them, but I don't think he'll be remembered a hundred years from now."

Then there are Mailer, Coover, Gass, Elkin, Burroughs (not the Tarzan one), Roth, Kesey, and others I'm forgetting at this moment. Or Bukowski.

Bill quivers: "We get it. You're a caricaturist. Homos and Negros? Quivering over imaginary dangers? Go find someone else to be your straw man."

No need. You do the job so well. Good luck with your Canon Protection Mission.

Roth will probably last of Moe's group. The rest I'm more skeptical about, though I like some of them quite well. Other likely survivors from post-1950 as major figures (rather than "folks read by some small following") to end-of-century? Two I'd bet a little money on would be Cormac McCarthy and DeLillo.

Muriel Spark should, as Gore Vidal has noted, but I don't know if she will. Too unpeggable.

Bill is in denial: "This is just too thin-skinned. I never said her fans were lying or anything about their reasons for liking her; that's absurd. I don't really care why or whether general readers like Toni Morrison! They're welcome to. I expressed my personal dislike of her work (which is as "disrespectful" as any other contrary statement of opinion I guess) and made a statement about what might be included in a general survey course instead of her. Deal with it."

Conservative kneejerkers like Bill will ALWAYS use a Morrison or a Baraka or a Woolf as an example when bitching about modern intrusions into their precious canon because it's not really the canon they care about - it's about attacking "political activists" and expressing their nativist/wingnut frustrations. You'll never see them complain about Arthur Koestler's "Darkness at Noon" being included, for example.

Need further evidence of this? No one questions T.S. Eliot's place in the canon on the basis of "too soon," but they'll do so with Virginia Woolf, who was born 7 years before Eliot.

This notion of Bill's that contemporary authors shouldn't be included should have left Eliot out in the cold in 1965 (the year of his death), but of course it did not. Eliot - like Hemingway and Fitzgerald and Yeats and many others - had the honor of academic attention while they were alive. Now Morrison and Pynchon and many others have that distinction. Bill and Ross can toss vague stinkbombs about this all day long, but the wind is not with them.

So, who are the post-1950 poets anyone will defend for canon here? I know my Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry fairly well. The early bits have lots of people who are read by people other than folks taking classes on poetry -- non-lit-majors do still sometimes read and enjoy Eliot, Yeats, William Carlos Williams, Pound, Moore, Frost and friends. The last half of the book is "random" people that are, almost to a man or woman, not even memorable to lit majors who don't specialize in poetry.

TMoC asks: "So, who are the post-1950 poets anyone will defend for canon here? I know my Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry fairly well. The early bits have lots of people who are read by people other than folks taking classes on poetry -- non-lit-majors do still sometimes read and enjoy Eliot, Yeats, William Carlos Williams, Pound, Moore, Frost and friends. The last half of the book is "random" people that are, almost to a man or woman, not even memorable to lit majors who don't specialize in poetry."

Ginsberg, Philip Larkin, Seamus Heaney, Bishop, cummings, Roethke, Robert Lowell, James Wright, Robert Hayden, William Everson (aka Brother Antoninus - I would think you'd be all over him, TMoC), Philip Levine, Derek Walcott... damn, it's a nice bunch. For a field that doesn't get much attention these days, it has done very well.

They're all in the Norton book... along with some stuff I consider to be egregious crap, and some other very strong poets I didn't mention.

I'll take Larkin's "Churchgoing" over anything Frost ever wrote.

JonF,

I said 'a good many' writers were included because of their congeniality towards the power structure and towards liberal-capitalist ideology, not everyone. I suspect that if many of the academic conservatives had their way, Marx would be edited out of the canon as well. But you're right, internal self-criticism has been an important part of much 'canonical' literature, and I didn't sufficiently acknowledge that. Tolstoy, of course, held that Shakespeare was included in the canon for ideological reasons as well, because he wrote what he did to please the rising English bourgeoisie. In general, of course, you're right.

On a somewhat different note, I have difficulty with the idea that what we consider the West is a unitary whole. I'm intrigued by the claim made by people like Huntington that Christendom is actually made up of three very distinct civilizations: 1) western Europe and North America, ie the "West" proper, and the inheritor of Protestantism 2) Latin America, the inheritor of Catholicism and 3) the Greek/Slavic world, inheritor of Orthodoxy, which have all been at each other's throats as often as not. (to say nothing of the ancient exclaves of Christianity like Armenia and Ethiopia). as an Orthodox Christian, I'm curious to know what you think of Huntington's claim (and that of others) that many of the foundational ideas of liberalism that we think of as 'Western' are nowhere near as popular, traditionally or even today, in either the Eastern-Christian or Latin American worlds. (As someone who is no great fan of liberalism, I'm not saying this as a criticism at all).

Moe --

Hmm, good list, and you're absolutely right. Perhaps I have no point! Still, other than maybe Larkin, Ginsburg, and Heaney, they seem to be less known names to educated but not especially literary folks -- I think you're less likely to find an engineer who dotes on Lowell than one who dotes on Eliot or Frost. But maybe this is really just because Eliot and Frost have been around longer, or something. Or just a result of "Cats" and "Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening."

That there's more random junk in the last half of NAMP is also probably just a function of the whittling effect of time.

TMoC writes: "That there's more random junk in the last half of NAMP is also probably just a function of the whittling effect of time."

I think if you look back at the last few editions of Norton you'll see that there's a lot of tinkering with that last half, or at least the last third. Part of the problem is the nature of poetry - it takes a long time for most poets to make their mark. Eliot was unusual in that his famous work was done in a relatively short time... and then he spent decades doing essentially nothing.

Walcott is also prominent enough to have won a Nobel, and e. e. cummings gets a lot of attention. Some of the rest will have their day, also.

Moe, according to you everything I say must be in bad faith. I'm sure you've never lost an argument in your life.

Sabina:

Tell me how you combine these two statements:

"I never said [Morrison's] fans were lying or anything about their reasons for liking her"

and your agreement with my characterization of your claim that Morrison is taught because she is a black female. Is your argument that the English profs who teach her are not people who also appreciate her work (and so your speculation as to their motives are not relevant)?

Huh? Of course they appreciate her work.

Or that the opinions of the educated public is irrelevant in deciding the importance of an author?

I don't have a crayon, so I'll try caps: IT'S MY OWN FUCKING OPINION OF TONI MORRISON. MY OPINION DOESN'T INVALIDATE THE COLLECTIVE OPINION OF TODAY'S EDUCATED PUBLIC. MUCH OF TODAY'S EDUCATED PUBLIC HAS DECIDED, TEMPORARILY OR NOT, RIGHTLY OR NOT, ON THE IMPORTANCE OF TONI MORRISON TO THE ENGLISH CANON. THIS COULD LAST, OR IT COULD FADE LIKE ANY OTHER FAD. THE FUTURE CANON WON'T BE DECIDED BY TODAY'S EDUCATED PUBLIC. MANY AUTHORS WERE IMPORTANT TO PAST EDUCATED PUBLICS WHO ARE NO LONGER CONSIDERED IMPORTANT.

I thought I'd already said as much, but you seem to want to keep bending my position into something it isn't.

It seems to me that you are trying to insult the motives of lit teachers, but then act aggrieved and innocent when they defend themselves.

No I am not acting aggrieved. Yes I have insulted some people's motives FOR ELEVATING HER TO A DEGREE I FEEL IS UNWARRANTED. I didn't say they were doing it in bad faith, or lying. I didn't say they lacked reasons for liking her, or were pretending (?) to like her for political reasons. I just don't think she should be taught alongside the canonical English authors. YET!!!

As for your claim about the canon--what do you think is the purpose of general english lit survey courses? Is it just the passing on of a standard list of great writers?

I don't know what you intend by the phrase "passing on."

BTW, as for your charge that I'm being too thin-skinned, respect is not a matter of personal offense, but a way of upholding the standards of humanistic discourse. I'm assuming we can both value those.

Look Sabina, I feel you wanted to interpret my personal opinions as an attack on your character. If I'm mistaken I'm sorry about it. To say that an author is being elevated for politically correct reasons is to point out a perceived error in judgement, not some bad-faith or insidious motive.

I'm a huge fan of Walcott, Everson, and Heany, and the others you mentioned are great too, Moe. I also like Lowell quite a bit, although I'm not an engineer, I've been told that I'm about as close as a lawyer gets to one. Come to think of it, I don't think that was a compliment (not unlike my roomate in college, who was told he was "articulate for an engineer."

This notion of Bill's that contemporary authors shouldn't be included should have left Eliot out in the cold in 1965 (the year of his death), but of course it did not. Eliot - like Hemingway and Fitzgerald and Yeats and many others - had the honor of academic attention while they were alive.

Big deal. So do many authors who "make it" and many others who do not.

Now Morrison and Pynchon and many others have that distinction. Bill and Ross can toss vague stinkbombs about this all day long, but the wind is not with them.

You may be right. It's only opinion.

Oh, and you're a total jerkoff of an interlocutor.

As for my supposed opinion about the great canonical T.S. Eliot, I think he's...somewhat overrated. Hemingway even more so. (But I do love Yeats.) Sure they're all important for their time. Sure they'll probably last, to some degree, for all time. I don't feel apologetic for being something of an arch-conservative about the matter of the English canon, and as King of America I'd be far more concerned with teaching the hundreds-of-years-old set first to English majors.

And Moe...Baraka? Who's that? Sounds vaguely Negroid. Where's my elephant gun.

There seems to be this idea that the English Canon now hangs in the balance, with "conservatives" vs. "progressives" battling it out. Individuals pipe up with the their individual opinions about individual authors, and are assigned to one or the other camp. "Conservatives" are accused of trying to stamp out the new, "progressives" are accused of trying to stamp out the old. Neither "side" is trying to do any such thing.

I see two issues: 1) what you think should ideally be taught in a general English lit survey, and 2) what you think should be "recommended reading" for a well-rounded person.

It should go without saying that *each and every important contemporary author* belongs in category 2. The dispute is about whether you also throw them into the inherently more conservative category 1. A general survey of English literatur only has time for so many authors, and the field is heavily stacked in favor of those whose reputations are pretty unassailable after 100+ years of Rezeptionsgeschichte. So the question is do you fudge on some of these essential historical texts in order to bring students up to speed on the present day literary scene? You can try, but I think it's basically impossible to do this in a balanced judicious fashion. You might end up making politically correct decisions about which present-day authors have inherited the mantle of past greats.

The solution? Teach old authors in the general survey, and teach a wide array of newer authors in a Contemporary Lit survey. The former survey should ground students in the foundational texts of our language; the latter should broaden and challenge them with newer ones.

Which is another way of saying, no I'm not trying to "preserve my precious canon" from recent interlopers. I'd just be interested in prioritizing what's already there and has been lying there for centuries. Some people think the past gets less relevant the further it recedes. I think it's always relevant.

Bill replies: "Moe, according to you everything I say must be in bad faith. I'm sure you've never lost an argument in your life."

Not to you, at any rate.

Scratch a Bill and the real deal is revealed. He quotes and writes: "Now Morrison and Pynchon and many others have that distinction. Bill and Ross can toss vague stinkbombs about this all day long, but the wind is not with them.

You may be right. It's only opinion.

Oh, and you're a total jerkoff of an interlocutor."

And you're a big poopyhead.

It's not my fault you and yours talk out of both sides of your mouths, Bill. You never managed to address my accusation that when your sort is called upon to criticize the canon you ALWAYS zap a woman or a black or (be still your heart) go for the double play with Morrison or Angelou.

In my own college studies I had the following on my reading lists: James T. Farrell, Pietro DiDonato, Arthur Koestler and Kingsley Amis. There were many others I could use as example, but those four will do. I'm fairly sure they weren't in the canon then or now. Was I badly served by their inclusion? I would say no. I'm much better read than you are, judging by your comments here, too.

You're a mean one, Mr. Bill. You have spiders in your soul.

Bill again: "As for my supposed opinion about the great canonical T.S. Eliot, I think he's...somewhat overrated."

Gee, Bill. How heretical of you. And how late in the game.

"Sure they're all important for their time. Sure they'll probably last, to some degree, for all time."

Oh, great. ETERNALLY overrated!

I think Bill would let Larry the Cable Guy into the canon for a ham sandwich and a warm Yoo-Hoo.

man, DiDonato wrote powerful stuff. Of course, I would think so, being a paisan, and one who poured concrete for a living, at that.

hugo, yes, the book was "Christ in Concrete." At the time it was out of print, and it may be now. The professor had us read xeroxed copies.

I don't recall what the name of the course was, but it was the same one where I read Farrell's "Studs Lonigan." Being a Harpo-American who had done some housepainting in high school I loved that one.

Plenty of books outside of the canon have immense value.

(Now that I think of it it was a survey course of American novels rising out of various immigrant waves. Just the sort of neo-Marxist pablum that drives some cons crazy, I suppose. But it was a great course.)

it's in print at the moment, or at least it was when I was at Tulane in 2001. I read it in college for an Italian-American Lit and Film class (I suspect it's near impossible to get your hands on the film, but it was decent from what I remember).

Having dispatched Bill, and being in a sharing mood, I present my favorite minor poem by disgraced marginal canon member Ezra Pound.


Ancient Music

Winter is icummen in,
Lhude sing Goddamm.
Raineth drop and staineth slop,
And how the wind doth ramm!
Sing: Goddamm.

Skiddeth bus and sloppeth us,
An ague hath my ham.
Freezeth river, turneth liver,
Damn you, sing: Goddamm.

Goddamm, Goddamm, 'tis why I am, Goddamm,
So 'gainst the winter's balm.

Sing goddamm, damm, sing Goddamm.
Sing goddamm, sing goddamm, DAMM.

hugo writes: "I read it in college for an Italian-American Lit and Film class (I suspect it's near impossible to get your hands on the film, but it was decent from what I remember)."

Thanks for the tip - I've never heard of the film before. Sam Wanamaker? Who'da thunk it?

Okay Bill, I'll let you have the last word (if you wish) after this, because I think we've repeated ourselves enough. I will not be able to convince you because whenever I make a claim about the implications of your view you refuse to acknowledge these implications are relevant--not because they do not in fact follow, but just because you didn't explicitly say that you believe them (saying you don't believe them in all caps to make sure I got it too).

As I stated before, I'm not interested in your views on Toni Morrison (at least until you present reasons for me to agree with them). What I am interested in is your claim that the experts of literature: the professors, writers, critics, and publishers who regard Toni Morrison in such high esteem do so not because she is a great writer, but because she is a black woman. Now, if you read or listen to these experts, they certainly do not say that the reason we should admire her writings so much is because she is a black writer--rather they explain her (claimed) greatness by analyzing her books as literature, just like they will books by any other writer.

Now, if someone does this, and concludes that Morrison is a great writer of the sort worthy of being taught in survey courses for those very literary reasons, while actually having as their real (although perhaps unconscious) motive the non-literary one of wanting to praise a black woman then, yes, that is in fact a charge of bad faith. Since that was your claim, I took it that you were making such an accusation.

I'm not saying that such accusations are a priori incorrect. Perhaps they really are writing in bad faith. Alternately, maybe a more representative canon really is a proper literary goal. Or perhaps, they really do think she is a great writer--perhaps for reasons you disagree with, but still recognizedly literary ones. These are all possible alternatives. I'm just not sure why you keep retreating from the implications of your criticism (hence preventing me from defending the literary establishment from it).

Look, I recognize that this is a bit of a side issue from your main point, which seems to be that we should teach more old English lit. Fine, I don't have a problem with that discussion, and you find many people in English dept. that agree with you. Your proposed two course approach: English lit-1900 and 20th century lit. is not that far off from how many universities actually teach this subject.

Also, I recognize that issues of canonicity are irrelevant as your definition of the canon precludes anyone from the last 50-80 years or so being included.

I'm just protesting because while you are willing to say, for instance, Hemingway and Eliot are overrated, and just leave it at that, no talk of political influence or anything, when you claim that Morrison is overrated you feel it is okay to say that not only is she overrated, but that the way she got so highly rated in the first place wasn't even for literary reasons, but simple bias.

And as for respect, no, I don't feel insulted by your claims. My point was this: if you meet someone who thinks that Toni Morrison is a great writer who should be included in the canon (at whatever point that becomes relevant), telling her that the reason she thinks this is because she is biased doesn't actually give her any reason to reject her original view. Hence, my claim that humanistic discourse relies on dealing with the actual reasons for thinking Morrison is a great writer (or not) rather than the bad faith suppositions of your response.

Christ in Concrete is still in print. The movie was called something like "Forgive us our Trespasses."

Whoops no it was "Called give us This Day." I got the right prayer at least.

Sabina's Hat writes: "Or perhaps, they really do think she is a great writer--perhaps for reasons you disagree with, but still recognizedly literary ones. These are all possible alternatives. I'm just not sure why you keep retreating from the implications of your criticism (hence preventing me from defending the literary establishment from it)."

You're so much more polite than I am.

He keeps retreating because he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Review the discussion and try to find where Bill reveals his deep knowledge of and appreciation for great literature. You won't find much. He likes the canon. He hates "TONI MORRISON." He's an "arch-conservative." He probably has an autographed copy of "The Way Things Oughta Be."

I can't speak for Bill, but is it possible he's not "retreating because he doesn't really know what he's talking about," but rather he has lost interest, or he has better things to do with his time, or some other legitimate reason? I have read this comment thread with interest, and don't think Bill has gotten the poorer of the argument. It's not like he has reason to be scared off by the logic of the countervailing viewpoints.

Lots more desperate ad hominem invective from MoeLarryandJesus. Since he's obviously such a bright guy (and so obviously acutely aware of it -- and gosh, so well read) I'm gonna go with personality disorder (one ad hominem attack deserves another). But to address the accusation I apparently never addressed:

You never managed to address my accusation that when your sort is called upon to criticize the canon you ALWAYS zap a woman or a black or (be still your heart) go for the double play with Morrison or Angelou.

*drum roll*

No, I don't ALWAYS do that. So there. Maybe if you deployed fewer over-the-top rhetorical gambits (do you think nobody sees through them?) you'd be "dispatching" fewer "hapless opponents" and having more worthwhile exchanges in life.

Sabina,

I think a simple distinction regarding the interpretation of "bad faith" might clear things up. First a few points:

1. "Experts" hold Toni Morrison in high esteem because they think she is a great writer, for completely honest reasons. Not *because* she is black. Certainly not.

2. Not that anyone cares what I think, as I said I think Toni Morrison is a worthwhile author for contemporary lit classes. She's important, relevant, writes good and meaningful stories, blah blah blah. I dislike her writing style, her prose, and I won't get into why here (because no one is interested). C'est la vie.

As for WHY she's taught alongside Shakespeare and Milton and Thackeray (or whomever) in general English lit surveys, and whether it's in bad faith. That depends on whether you're persuaded by the notion that academics might advance a certain curriculum because it's both inherently excellent in their minds AND helpfully serves some extra-literary cause. The P.C. movement that swept through academia in recent decades made few efforts to disguise its transparently political aims with regard to influencing the education of college students. So, to me, the effort to include more black authors *because they are black* is virtually undeniable. And I think it was necessary to do in some fashion. That doesn't mean that they're going to choose just any token black author; Toni Morrison is anything but terrible. That's why I think "they" weren't acting in bad faith for teaching her. My quarrel was/is with the context into which her (and others) have been thrust, in relative haste. The (real) need to more fairly represent minority viewpoints in academia should not, imo, have translated into a need to overcompensate and portray some of these very recent voices as virtual equivalents of, or counterpoises to, or even rebukes to, the so-called "dead white male" set. (And let's not pretend that writers from Shakespeare on down weren't being irresponsibly lumped into some discredited racist past by many who ought to have known better. It's faded now, but this kind of shit was *flying* around 20 years ago.)

Is this "bad faith"? Probably not. I think the people responsible honestly believe it's necessary, justified and salutary. Where Morrison is concerned I just happen to disagree, and I'm comfortable being proved either right or wrong.

Finally:

I'm just protesting because while you are willing to say, for instance, Hemingway and Eliot are overrated, and just leave it at that, no talk of political influence or anything, when you claim that Morrison is overrated you feel it is okay to say that not only is she overrated, but that the way she got so highly rated in the first place wasn't even for literary reasons, but simple bias.

First, I'd again want to avoid equating bias with bad faith. Second, Hemingway and Eliot are from a different time. When they were "inducted", the cause, however you define or perceive it, of minority authors being neglected by academia was barely on the radar. Both are direct descendants of the dead white male canon, both are/were important authors who deserve to be read and taught, and of neither (imo) can anyone say with any certainty that their reputations will be undiminished in 100-200 years' time.

Thanks for listening...

Couldn't avoid responding to this from "MoeLarryAndJesus":

He keeps retreating because he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Review the discussion and try to find where Bill reveals his deep knowledge of and appreciation for great literature. You won't find much. He likes the canon. He hates "TONI MORRISON." He's an "arch-conservative." He probably has an autographed copy of "The Way Things Oughta Be."

Oh, PLEASE! I just reviewed the discussion and couldn't find much evidence of Moe's "deep knowledge of and appreciation for great literature" either. What I did notice was a lot of people listing authors they do and don't care for. With Moe leading the charge.

I guess everybody's supposed to start backing up every honest opinion with sterling literary credentials now. In a blog thread.

Bill writes: "Lots more desperate ad hominem invective from MoeLarryandJesus. Since he's obviously such a bright guy (and so obviously acutely aware of it -- and gosh, so well read) I'm gonna go with personality disorder (one ad hominem attack deserves another)."

So after calling me a "jerkoff" and going all CAPS and talking about how he FUCKING hates Toni Morrison Bill goes the usual conservative wienie route and whines about "ad hominem" blah blah blah. The only surprise is he didn't use the word "vitriol."

Grow a pair, Bill. You're a bigot. As you said yourself, "deal with it."

I like how drones like "nah" and "yeah right" contributed exactly nothing to the discussion and then come in and pat Bill on the back. There's no chance Bill himself penned those little kudos. Nah. Yeah, right.

And imagine the noive of people "listing authors the do and don't care for" in a thread about, uh, lists of authors. Even if "yeah right" isn't Bill it's the same sort of suffering sycophant.

So after calling me a "jerkoff" and going all CAPS and talking about how he FUCKING hates Toni Morrison Bill goes the usual conservative wienie route and whines about "ad hominem" blah blah blah. The only surprise is he didn't use the word "vitriol."

I never said I "fucking hate Toni Morrison." I said it was my fucking opinion. I can't use the f-word now?

Grow a pair, Bill. You're a bigot. As you said yourself, "deal with it."

Yep. Anyone who dislikes Toni Morrison is a bigot. Way to lay your mindset bare, jerkoff.

I like how drones like "nah" and "yeah right" contributed exactly nothing to the discussion and then come in and pat Bill on the back. There's no chance Bill himself penned those little kudos. Nah. Yeah, right.

And imagine the noive of people "listing authors the do and don't care for" in a thread about, uh, lists of authors. Even if "yeah right" isn't Bill it's the same sort of suffering sycophant.

Wow.

I'm the one who wrote earlier as "nah." I suppose there's no way anyone can verify this, but for the record, I am not "Bill," nor am I "yeah right." Moe says I am a drone who has contributed nothing to the discussion.
I actually contributed to the discussion earlier as "response to Freddie." That monikor no longer seemed relevant when I posted briefly as "nah," and I didn't feel like I needed to bother to become "response to MoeLarryandJesus." I figure he would just characterize me as a "bigot," no matter what I wrote.
Moe, you're the one who hasn't contributed much to the discussion, but you sure use many words.

Bill again: "Yep. Anyone who dislikes Toni Morrison is a bigot. Way to lay your mindset bare, jerkoff."

Not everyone, Bill. Just the bigots. Look the word up. You might learn something. Make a habit of that and you can stop breastfeeding and give your poor old mom a break.

nah again writes: "I actually contributed to the discussion earlier as "response to Freddie." "

Oh, right - you're the genius who read "To Kill A Mockingbird" in college. It's a book generally assigned in the 9th grade, so I guess the fact that you needed remedial instruction to get up to speed gives you a lot of credibility.

I'm guessing you thought the book was a comedy.

Moe, I think I've expressed a fair amount of tolerance for Toni Morrison. I tolerate her being read, taught, and appreciated by others. I applaud her huge success. So no, I guess I haven't learned something (from you). Least of all why you're convinced I'm a bigot. My posts on the topic have been more than fair. If your threshold for bigotry is that low you have a serious personality problem. Now fuck off.

Oh, right - you're the genius who read "To Kill A Mockingbird" in college. It's a book generally assigned in the 9th grade, so I guess the fact that you needed remedial instruction to get up to speed gives you a lot of credibility.

I'm guessing you thought the book was a comedy.

What an asshole!

Moe, it's possible to read a book in high school, and then get it assigned again in college with the view towards a deeper explication of it, within the broader context of modern Southern literature.

Bill writes: "Moe, I think I've expressed a fair amount of tolerance for Toni Morrison. I tolerate her being read, taught, and appreciated by others. I applaud her huge success."

That's nice, Bill. I'll bet you'd even let her use the front door if she ever visited your house.

"Now fuck off."

Is that supposed to make me go away, Billy? Are you really that stupid or is it an act?

nah #3 writes: "Moe, it's possible to read a book in high school, and then get it assigned again in college with the view towards a deeper explication of it, within the broader context of modern Southern literature."

Do you think that was a good sentence?

It was better than Morrison. :-)
Please excuse the bigotry.

nah (and previous names): Your comments have been among the best; you should adopt a permanent name (or psuedonym) in the future to avoid confusion.

MoeLarryandJesus: You've clearly revealed yourself in this thread to be a bright and well-read guy rather than the boorish troll you've previously come across as, but you still engage in profanity and nasty personal attacks at small provocation that detract from the quality of the arguments. (Although in this thread the person who called a Toni Morrison a tw*t was just as bad.)

James Kabala writes: "MoeLarryandJesus: You've clearly revealed yourself in this thread to be a bright and well-read guy rather than the boorish troll you've previously come across as, but you still engage in profanity and nasty personal attacks at small provocation that detract from the quality of the arguments. (Although in this thread the person who called a Toni Morrison a tw*t was just as bad.)"

Of course your comments mean nothing to me since you conveniently overlooked your ideological twin Bill's use of same. You hall monitor types really need to stop playing favorites if you expect to get promoted.

The tenor of my posts has remained constant on this and other forums for years. Maybe you just weren't paying attention before.

"The tenor of my posts has remained constant on this and other forums for years."

Ass-holish, that is.

Bill's mom quotes and writes: ""The tenor of my posts has remained constant on this and other forums for years."

Ass-holish, that is."

Thanks, Bill's mom. You raised a real winner.

Notice how Douthat provides no actual scholarly citations for his claim about what "too many colleges" did; as someone who worked at his alma mater, and has been employed by two universities since, I can offer one suggestion for Douthat's omission: his claim cannot be supported by evidence. It is utter crap.

But maybe he just wanted to impress us with his credentials while pimping his book at the same time....

This comment should be better.

The Bible is an important part of the Western canon in general. The KJV is not necessarily an important part of the canon because it is out of date. Those who teach the KJV have chosen to teach the Bible as literature.

The Venerable Bede wrote in Latin, not English.

A layperson will read and understand the Bible through a heavy veil of theology.

I don't see what's so "obviously depressing" about teaching Virgina Woolf, who between her novels and her criticism is almost certainly the most important figure in Modernism, her only possible competition being D.H. Lawrence.

But take a look at those two lists, one of which you find "obviously depressing." They share three writers -- all of whom have been dead for many centuries. But the 1965 list includes T.S. Eliot, a writer far more contemporary in 1965 than Virginia Woolf is today. Indeed, he is clearly the Morrison of the list. Eliot died in 1965, so his corpse was fresh when that list came out. To me, it would seem that each generation has at least one contemporary writer that is taught in university. Eliot obviously didn't make it very long, eventually being displaced by Woolf. That's part of gaining perspective on literature.

But I'd argue that it's vital for students to be exposed to the great writers of their time as well as "the Canon." Milton can tell us a great deal about human existence, but he didn't live through either World War or the Cold War, much less the Sexual Revolution. So perhaps Philip Roth, Toni Morrison, James Baldwin and William Faulkner have things to teach us too?

"Dick's best work is "A Scanner Darkly."

It most definitely is NOT. It's good, but these are better:

We Can Build You
Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said
VALIS
The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch
Time Out of Joint

"I took classical (koine) Greek for two years"

Koine is ancient, but it ain't classical.

*

"but mostly that American students were steeped in a culture of relativism where truth had become merely a matter of opinion.

They have been steeped in that culture because that view happens to be correct."

But by 'correct,' you don't mean that the view is 'true,' do you? Because then ... oh, never mind ...

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