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Why I Am A Social Conservative

20 Sep 2007 04:58 pm

Everybody's talking - Andrew, Rod, Will (who got there first), the Times - about Jonathan Haidt, his theory of moral instincts, and how it applies to American politics. I thought I'd jump in, starting with a long quote from Haidt's recent critique of the Dawkins-Hitchens-Harris tribe of neo-atheists.

In my research I have found that there are two common ways that cultures suppress and regulate selfishness, two visions of what society is and how it ought to work. I'll call them the contractual approach and the beehive approach.

The contractual approach takes the individual as the fundamental unit of value. The fundamental problem of social life is that individuals often hurt each other, and so we create implicit social contracts and explicit laws to foster a fair, free, and safe society in which individuals can pursue their interests and develop themselves and their relationships as they choose.

Morality is about happiness and suffering (as [Sam] Harris says, and as John Stuart Mill said before him), and so contractualists are endlessly trying to fine-tune laws, reinvent institutions, and extend new rights as circumstances change in order to maximize happiness and minimize suffering. To build a contractual morality, all you need are the two individualizing foundations: harm/care, and fairness/reciprocity. The other three foundations, and any religion that builds on them, run afoul of the prime directive: let people make their own choices, as long as they harm nobody else.
The beehive approach, in contrast, takes the group and its territory as fundamental sources of value. Individual bees are born and die by the thousands, but the hive lives for a long time, and each individual has a role to play in fostering its success.The two fundamental problems of social life are attacks from outside and subversion from within. Either one can lead to the death of the hive, so all must pull together, do their duty, and be willing to make sacrifices for the group. Bees don't have to learn how to behave in this way but human children do, and this is why cultural conservatives are so heavily focused on what happens in schools, families, and the media.

Conservatives generally have a more pessimistic view of human nature than do liberals. They are more likely to believe that if you stand back and give kids space to grow as they please, they'll grow into shallow, self-centered, undisciplined pleasure seekers. Cultural conservatives work hard to cultivate moral virtues based on the three binding foundations: ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity, as well as on the universally employed foundations of harm/care and fairness/reciprocity. The beehive ideal is not a world of maximum freedom, it is a world of order and tradition in which people are united by a shared moral code that is effectively enforced, which enables people to trust each other to play their interdependent roles. It is a world of very high social capital and low anomie.

It might seem obvious to you that contractual societies are good, modern, creative and free, whereas beehive societies reek of feudalism, fascism, and patriarchy. And, as a secular liberal I agree that contractual societies such as those of Western Europe offer the best hope for living peacefully together in our increasingly diverse modern nations (although it remains to be seen if Europe can solve its current diversity problems).

I just want to make one point, however, that should give contractualists pause: surveys have long shown that religious believers in the United States are happier, healthier, longer-lived, and more generous to charity and to each other than are secular people. Most of these effects have been documented in Europe too. If you believe that morality is about happiness and suffering, then I think you are obligated to take a close look at the way religious people actually live and ask what they are doing right.

I wouldn't endorse everything Haidt says here: I'm not sure, for instance, that contractualism (the belief that political life should be organized around a social contract that takes the individual as the fundamental unit of value) and utilitarianism (the belief that morality is about happiness and suffering) are quite so easily conflated. But I'm sympathetic to the broad outlines of his thesis, and I think the contract and the beehive aren't bad ways to look at the competing modes of social organization that one finds in America today.

A while back, I did a bloggingheads with Henry Farrell, in which he asked me to describe and defend my ideal society. I wasn't expecting the question, and since we were talking about Catholicism I launched into a rambling discussion of how I'd like to see religious issues debated in the public square. But if he asked me again now, I might say something like this: I think the contractual and the beehive models of human society both have qualities that recommend them, because both contribute to human flourishing in meaningful but radically different ways. Some types of people, perhaps the majority, are happier in a beehive, but many others are happier in a more deracinated, individualized, unrestricted form of social and political organization. This is a point suggested recently by Rod Dreher, who quoted Alan Ehrenhalt's The Lost City, a medititation on the urban social order of the 1950s:

There is no point in pretending that the 1950s were a happy time for everyone in America. For many, the price of the limited life was impossibly high. To have been an independent-minded alderman in the Daley machine, a professional baseball player treated unfairly by his team, a suburban housewife who yearned for a professional career, a black high school student dreaming of possibilities that were closed to him, a gay man or woman forced to conduct a charade in public -- to have been any of these things in the 1950s was to live a life that was difficult at best, and tragic at worst. That is why so many of us still respond to the memory of those indignities by saying that nothing in the world could justify them.

It is a powerful indictment, but it is also a selective one ... Our collective indignation makes little room for the millions of people who took the rules seriously and tried to live up to them, within the profound limits of human weakness. They are still around, the true believers of the 1950s, in small towns and suburbs and big-city neighborhoods all over the country, reading the papers, watching television, and wondering in old age what has happened to America in the last thirty years. If you visit middle-class American suburbs today, and talk to the elderly women who have lived out their adult years in these places, they do not tell you how constricted and demeaning their lives in the 1950s were. They tell you those were the best years they can remember. And if you visit a working-class Catholic parish in a big city, and ask the older parishioners what they think of the church in the days before Vatican II, they don't tell you that it was tyrannical or that it destroyed their individuality. They tell you they wish they cold have it back. For them, the erosion of both community and authority in the last generation is not a matter of intellectual debate. It is something they can feel in their bones, and the feeling makes them shiver.

One of the central questions of our time, to my mind, comes down to balance: How far do we want to go in the contractual direction, and to what extent do we want to preserve and shore up the beehives? To what extent do we need to provide space for the dissenters to breathe, and to what extent do we want a society where the conformists can flourish? My preference would be to inhabit a society that's formally contractualist, that protects the rights of minorities and provides opportunities for dissenters and free spirits to find their way in the world, but that is undergirded by sturdy beehives - by rooted communities that are, as Haidt puts it, high on social capital and low on anomie. This is the American model, I would argue, from Tocqueville's time down to our own: a nation balanced between contractualism and community. And the question becomes, for those who think this model has been a great success, where do you strike the balance? And which side of the equation needs shoring up?

This answer will vary depending on where and when you live. So, for instance, I probably would have been a liberal, in some sense, had I been alive, writing and voting at mid-century, since the America of that era seems to me to have erred too far on the side of in-group prerogatives, authority and (yes) patriarchy. But the America of this era seems to me to have become unbalanced in the opposite direction, requiring a different, more culturally-conservative approach to social reform than the United States of, say, 1952. This take on our current predicament doesn't require one to be on the political right, of course, and indeed I have a great deal of sympathy for communitarians and "left-conservatives," from Michael Sandel and Robert Putnam to Christopher Lasch and Russell Arben Fox. I incline away from them on questions of economic policy not out of any delusion that unfettered capitalism hasn't played a significant role in the cultural trends that I find worrying, but because I think that economic freedom was one of the freedoms that the 1950s order went too far in stifling - and more importantly, because the most likely alternative to Reaganism and Rubinomics wasn't some low-growth crunchy-communitarian utopia, but rather a steady expansion in government power that would have crowded out the "little platoons" even more quickly than free-market capitalism undercuts them. Traditional forms of social organization are weaker in today's America than they were fifty years ago, but they're still much, much stronger than in Europe, where the economic left has held the whip for decades.

Of course, it's possible to believe that this balancing act is pure folly, and that the traditional patterns of life deserve to largely perish. See, for instance, Will Wilkinson:

The American culture war is about how thoroughly the liberal sentiments will be allowed to dominate. If a thoroughly liberal society is worth having, liberals will have to spot the points of conflict between the liberal and illiberal dimensions of the moral sense, drive in the wedge, and pull out all the rhetorical stops--including playing on feelings of quasi-religious elevation and indignant moral disgust--to make Americans feel the moral primacy of harm, autonomy, and rights. When the pattern of feeling is in place, the argument is easy to accept.

... Perhaps Haidt's most significant contribution is helping liberals of all stripes see that liberalism is not a mere intellectual commitment, but a condition of the soul, a condition to be proud of--one that puts us at a far remove from tribalism, caste, and theocracy.

Obviously, this is pretty far from my own take on the matter. I would suggest, briefly, that Will ought to give more credence to the notion that he can't have his cake and eat it too: That what he terms "tribalism, caste, and theocracy" - and what a more sympathetic observer might call "family, community, and religion" - play a stabilizing role in society that would otherwise be filled, almost inevitably, by an ever-expanding state. You can have the kind of economic liberty that Will wants, or you can have the kind of personal liberty, but you can't necessarily have both. This is the old fusionist argument, of course, and while it's taken something of a beating of late, I don't think it's all that easily dismissed.

Update: In the original version of this post, I repeatedly misspelled Haidt as "Haight." Sorry about that.

Comments (61)

This is the American model

Can we please, dear Gawd, discard the notion of a single American model of anything? In a nation of the 300 mil., spread over 3.7 mil. sq. mi., you are likely to find a fair bit of diversity.

I'm not sure, for instance, that contractualism (the belief that political life should be organized around a social contract that takes the individual as the fundamental unit of value) and utilitarianism (the belief that morality is about happiness and suffering) are quite so easily conflated.

To put it mildly! It's bizarre that he glosses over this. The number one critique of utilitarianism tends to be that it is antithetical to common ideas of individual rights. That's why it's usually abandoned, or watered down into a version that contains none of the flexibility or clarity that are its strengths.

Thanks for this engaging post.

A quick first reaction-- you wrote, I probably would have been a liberal, in some sense, had I been alive, writing and voting at mid-century, since the America of that era seems to me to have erred too far on the side of in-group prerogatives, authority and (yes) patriarchy.

But that's clear only in retrospect. At the time, respectable conservatives like William F. Buckley thought that desegregation was catastrophic for the beehive.

We all hope and imagine that we would have stood with the good guys back then, but liberalism and conservatism may be as much impulses, born and/or bred, as they are philosophies that we consciously sign onto after weighing the pros and cons.

I identify more with the left than the right; would I have been blind to the evils of Stalin in the 1930s?

I believe that we should seek truth from facts; does that attitude result in a kind of Panglossianism that would have left me blind to the evils of slavery and segregation? Does it make me dismissive of, say the problems of the uninsured?

Thank you, Ross, for this thoughtful post.

One quibble, though. In passing, you wrote:

"Traditional forms of social organization are weaker in today's America than they were fifty years ago, but they're still much, much stronger than in Europe, where the economic left has held the whip for decades."

It's true that the "economic left" has long held the whip in Europe, but what's the evidence for the claim that "traditional forms of social organization" are weaker in Europe than they are in the US? Social conservatives say things like this quite a lot. Where's the data?

Purely anecdotal conclusion: Though I'm an American, my wife is an Italian citizen, and we spend a great deal of time in Italy. Even in cosmopolitan, highly sophisticated Milan the degree of conformity to traditional ways one observes is quite striking--especially if one is coming from North America. Indeed, the sheer *traditionalness* of daily Italian life--especially family life--can sometimes feel oppressive. Thoughts?

Also...

I really do hope you keep that second quote in mind. Because, yeah, the old social order was great-- as long as you were in the power base. But it could be incredibly hard if you were black or a woman or gay or a Jew. And I think that you are particularly guilty of a kind of myopia about the "good ole days". Because, look, the exclusion and oppression of those people wasn't a flaw in that system. It wasn't some wrinkle that could be iron out for a new, benevolent conservative patriarchy. Those things are fundamental and endemic to the old ways. And whether you were born with tangible difference, or you were simply different, a psychological outlier, it really, really sucked to live in those times. Better for things to be unkempt and wild and a little dangerous than pleasant and safe and clean, but stultifying, stale, oppressive.

Freddie,

But there are ways to be that suck now -- this is true of any order this side of utopia. It sucks in different ways, of course, and some of the suckage isn't quite so automatic, but it's not as if there are no losers.

Better for things to be unkempt and wild and a little dangerous than pleasant and safe and clean, but stultifying, stale, oppressive.

Er, isn't that a judgement call? And the crime rates in some places, during some periods of the experiment, went beyond "a little dangerous." Now, obviously it was a little dangerous to be certain people in that 1950 world.

More to the point, if you look at policies Ross endorses (or most social conservatives, even the most reactionary and suspicious of the Enlightenment such as myself), they don't do much to restore the more odious elements of the 1950s, at least not in any obvious way.

Re: If you believe that morality is about happiness and suffering, then I think you are obligated to take a close look at the way religious people actually live and ask what they are doing right.

Maybe so, but that religious belief has to be spontaneous. Anyone care to argue that you can impose religion on people and they'll be happier? And as far as I know there's no study showing that any one particular religious flavor produces happier people. A social liberal who is sincerely religious will enjoy a happier life too; he does not need to be a social conservative.

Re: If you visit middle-class American suburbs today, and talk to the elderly women who have lived out their adult years in these places, they do not tell you how constricted and demeaning their lives in the 1950s were. They tell you those were the best years they can remember.

Well, um, yes-- because they were young. That's why, absent some truly great horror, the past always looks so golden to those who lived through it: they had their youth still.

Now as to this "beehive" tyhing, there's nothing preventing people from living that way who want to. They need only find a like-minded spouse, like-minded friends and a like-minded church. And most jobs are usually so deadenly conformist that work shouldn't upset them too much either. What they can't do is force others to live that lifestyle. But is that what their happiness depends on, compelling others to agree with them?

Er, isn't that a judgement call?

Yup!

Elvis writes: "A quick first reaction-- you wrote, I probably would have been a liberal, in some sense, had I been alive, writing and voting at mid-century, since the America of that era seems to me to have erred too far on the side of in-group prerogatives, authority and (yes) patriarchy.

But that's clear only in retrospect. At the time, respectable conservatives like William F. Buckley thought that desegregation was catastrophic for the beehive.

We all hope and imagine that we would have stood with the good guys back then, but liberalism and conservatism may be as much impulses, born and/or bred, as they are philosophies that we consciously sign onto after weighing the pros and cons. "

I think there's something to this, and often I think about how the only people I ever hear bitching about "my tax dollars" are conservatives. With liberals/progressives it's usually only used as a rebuttal point - "I don't want my taxes used for torture, either" - but it's seldom a primary motivator.

"I identify more with the left than the right; would I have been blind to the evils of Stalin in the 1930s?"

I've never seen any true difference between dictatorships of the left and right. Watching Castro deny his people the simple right to say no by leaving Cuba has always offended me deeply. Bush's use of torture and abandonment of habeas corpus only hurt worse because the US is my home, and I expect more of it than a creep toward fascism.

TMoC writes: "More to the point, if you look at policies Ross endorses (or most social conservatives, even the most reactionary and suspicious of the Enlightenment such as myself), they don't do much to restore the more odious elements of the 1950s, at least not in any obvious way."

But Ross - and perhaps you - aren't the most baleful social conservatives out there. The real troglodytes have a good deal of power, too - look at the Oklahoma delegation for some evidence. And that's just one example.

Brown vs. Board of Education has been struck down or at least severely weakened by the "social conservatives" you endorse, and so a return to the 50s may not be as far away as you'd like to pretend. I'm waiting to see how that one plays out.

It wasn't some wrinkle that could be iron out for a new, benevolent conservative patriarchy. Those things are fundamental and endemic to the old ways

That's idiotic. There's no logical or historical reason -- or any reason whatsoever -- why the divorce rate of the 1950s (to take one example) is in any way connected (let alone "fundamental") to segregation.

That's idiotic. There's no logical or historical reason -- or any reason whatsoever -- why the divorce rate of the 1950s (to take one example) is in any way connected (let alone "fundamental") to segregation.

Man, you knocked the stuffing out of that straw man.

PLEASE NO MORE ITALICS

My problem with the beehive theory is that it is a facade. The rules (as we all know) never apply to the Queen bees (i.e. powerful) anyways, and, I think there is an economic rational for why beehives never work as they purport to work.

Any perceived social imbalance (for example, consentual sex before marriage) can either be openly accepted (contractual) or society can place restrictions either explicitly or implicitly (beehive) on that behavior. But all you do (just like with any consumer activity that is banned or rationed) is drive it into a blackmarket. So the bee-hive from the outside looks like a beehive, but if you were to pry it open, it would be as empty and devoid of what you expected as if you lived in the contractual world.

If we instead focused on education and social injustice, giving everyone equality of opportunitty, you would get much farther towards fostering a society which makes mature decisions (since educated people have more to lose from making immature decisions) than in a nation where decisions are dictated from above.

Face it - what causes you not to binge drink on a Wednesday night like you would in college? The fact your Parents told you it was wrong when a kid, or the fact that you have professional goals and aspirations that would come into conflict with such activity?

SCMtim,

You're at once on solid ground in denying that there is single no American (or European, or liberal, or republican) model and sliding sideways off of the point Douthat (correctly) makes. America has always -- really always -- been some compromise between explicit procedural liberalism and republican virtues that are, if not illiberal, at least non-liberal.

The moral change in American culture over the past 50 years -- feminism, civil rights, gay rights -- has been at once a triumph of the political left and the intellectually liberal. These isn't a necessary alliance (and to be sure, there is a loud and vocal illiberal left these days), but it was the alliance in fact. I don't think there is any mainstream political actor (and precious few good-faith actors) who want to turn back any piece of this advance. There are *lots* of people, however, who feel we have moved too far along the liberal axis vs. the republican (issues including: the economic liberty of, e.g., WalMart, the minimum wage, immigration, a legalistic culture). These concerns are shared by left and right (although, typically, with different emphasis), and I think Douthat is correct to note it as a flashpoint. Don't you agree?

ML&J-- I feel the same reaction to dictatorships, whether of the left or right, and have heard almost no one ever say anything admiring about Castro. But in 1930, it might have been different.

I'm finally giving up on the idea that you are a Catholic. There doesn't seem to be any trace of Catholicism in you're worldview. Just a bunch of mealy-mouthed, wonkish, junk designed to keep as many people on your side as possible. How sad.

No, I think Haight is missing the point about what modern liberalism has been all about since the 1960s. Before then, American liberalism was about the welfare of the majority: the farmer vs. the big landowner for Jefferson and Jackson, the working class vs. the capitalists for Franklin Roosevelt.

But ever since the triumph of the civil rights movement set the template of moral glamor once and for all, liberalism has been all about advancing the interests of minorities at the expense of the majority.

The long run problem for this world view is: what happens when there's no more majority left, when everybody's a minority?

Elvis says: "ML&J-- I feel the same reaction to dictatorships, whether of the left or right, and have heard almost no one ever say anything admiring about Castro. But in 1930, it might have been different."

That's true. I'm thinking of Orwell's commentaries on the Communists of that time who had to spin on a dime - first they despised Hitler, then had to make excuses for the Non-Alignment Pact (I may have the name wrong, just didn't feel like making it up), then could despise Hitler again after he began his assault on the East. I'm not sure how much information they had about real conditions in Russia in 1930, though.

There's a slice of the left that harbors admiration for "Fidel," and they always call him by his first name. There's a much larger portion of the right that's willing to make excuses for any cheap-ass thug Nixon or Reagan or one Bush or another champions and arms, though.

Steve Sailer writes: "No, I think Haight is missing the point about what modern liberalism has been all about since the 1960s. Before then, American liberalism was about the welfare of the majority: the farmer vs. the big landowner for Jefferson and Jackson, the working class vs. the capitalists for Franklin Roosevelt.

But ever since the triumph of the civil rights movement set the template of moral glamor once and for all, liberalism has been all about advancing the interests of minorities at the expense of the majority."

What a pure load of crap. Repiglicans are all about advancing the interests of the top 1% - the rest is a smoke screen. This "they're out for the minorities" nonsense is just Nixon's Southern Strategy.

Steve probably still thinks Bush is a uniter, not a divider. What sould be dumber than that?

More to the point, if you look at policies Ross endorses (or most social conservatives, even the most reactionary and suspicious of the Enlightenment such as myself), they don't do much to restore the more odious elements of the 1950s, at least not in any obvious way.

My emphasis, of course. Now, let's put race aside - it's a contentious issue, but I think that while some social conservatives would be very happy to go back to the fifties with regard to race (not even necessarily those "most reactionary and suspicious of the enlightenment"), it thankfully isn't happening. Aside from ending affirmative action, the absence of which even its most fervent supporter isn't going to claim would put us back to the 50s in terms of race, there aren't many serious proposals among social conservatives that would represent a serious U-turn on race.

Woman's rights are another matter. I have no idea what your own ideas on that are. Ross has expressed a good deal of real sympathy and understanding about those issues. But many - perhaps most - social conservatives have expressed pretty frank opinions about wanting to bring us back to the 50s in terms of gender roles. If we were to enact the whole social conservative agenda with regard to gender relations, we really would be a pretty fair way back to he 50s. Even closer, perhaps, if some changes were made in areas which aren't at the forefront of the agenda of the social conservatives, but certainly are openly advocated (significant changes in divorce law, for example).

Now, I don't think that this genie can ever be put entirely back into the bottle, so to speak. But the mere fact that Ross is personally sympathetic to women who want choices beyond being a stay at home mom, doesn't provide much comfort. Good intentions aren't enough, and many (most?) of Ross' fellow travelers don't have good intentions (on that issue, at least).

There are certainly other changes that I would consider negative that would occur if the social conservatives got their agenda enacted. Those changes, though, while from my perspective worth fighting, would not, I concede, be quite as catastrophic from a secular "individualist" perspective as some people claim. But the real negative effects on women would be, yes, catastrophic, and are worth every bit of hysteria (well, maybe not EVERY bit) that opponents can muster.

Moreover - or maybe this is a way of saying the same thing in a different way - many of Ross' fellow travelers have no interest in the balance that Ross talks about - they want to shift things dramatically the other way. Ross' basic argument with regards to those people is that some of the more extreme goals of the movement (goals Ross doesn't share) will never come to pass, so why worry. Now, I can think of a bunch of reasons why I'm not comforted by that, starting with the fact that the most vocal leaders of the movement seem, for the most part, to be the people that propose the most radical changes.

But perhaps a better way to explain why I find that particular argument by Ross so lame. Let's imagine a world where there was actually a very vocal and effective communist movement int he United States. Let's say that it decided to try to gain influence from within an established parties. Let's say that they became enormously influential in that party, not enough (yet) to get their agenda adopted, but strong enough to have almost a veto power over candidates. Let's say that I was a non-communist member of that party, with relatively moderate views. Let's say I started a blog defending my moderately leftest views. Let's say some of my moderately conservative or libertarian readers said something like this "hey man, we disagree with your views, but we agree that you personally aren't going to bring on the Gulags. But we're scared shitless of those communist guys you run with."

I DON'T think those readers would be comforted or convinced if I said "don't worry, I know those guys are a little extreme, but they'll never be strong enough to enact the more extreme elements in their program."

The problem, Steve, is that-- despite what you seem to think-- things are still much better for straight white men than anybody else. That is confirmed by almost any possible rubric we have for success in our culture.

More to the point, if you look at policies Ross endorses (or most social conservatives, even the most reactionary and suspicious of the Enlightenment such as myself), they don't do much to restore the more odious elements of the 1950s, at least not in any obvious way.

On race, I agree with this. I think there are some conservatives who are certainly pushing the envelope on race (trying to argue all sorts of psuedo-science about racial differences; pitching arguments against affirmative action and immigration-- which can be made in non-racist ways-- in a racist direction; etc.). But I don't hear any credible voices trying to repeal the civil rights laws or reverse the civil rights revolution.

But on gender, I do not agree with this at all. Obviously overturning Roe is some part of this, but many conservatives have also endorsed some or all of the following:

1. Restricting divorce.
2. Making contraception less available, both in the US and in the third world.
3. Curtailing sexual harassment laws.
4. Expanding the definition of bona fide occupational qualifications and therefore permitting more sex segregation and discrimination in the workplace.
5. Excluding women from some traditionally male jobs like firefighting.
6. Permitting public single-sex male military academies.
7. Making it more difficult for women to sue for pay discrimination in the workplace.
8. Giving husbands/boyfriends veto power over abortions.

Now, would all these things reestablish the patriarchy in all of its glory? Probably not. But they would go some way to doing so, and they would make women's lives-- especially working women's lives-- worse.

I also think that it is obvious that many people would like to roll back the clock on gay rights, to an era where Bowers v. Hardwick was the law of the land and gays could be prosecuted for sleeping with each other.

And I certainly think that people want to roll back the Supreme Court's religion cases and make the government a prosletyzing agent.

Somewhere up there someone named Jim said something about Italy being beehivish. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that in most cases (eg religion, birthrate) Italy is the exception to the general trends in Europe.

Do theocrats believe in theocracy because it is "stabilizing"? They may see that as an added benefit, but it isn't their prime motivation. Religious beliefs are much more fundamental than that. Theocrats need to impose thier beliefs on everyone out of fear that they may in fact be wrong about all of it. (I assume Ross would deny being a theocrat, but some of what he proposes seems awfully close. And Rod Dreher? Lord help us all if his ideas ever take hold.)

This is a good post. I think the reason that behivish religious believers are on average happier than contractual nonbelievers is that they are living lives more in tune with innate human nature. Why is human nature the way it is? That's a problem for evolutionary psychology.

In my opinion, though, happiness is not the highest ideal. I would rather be a somewhat happy, albeit troubled and sometimes despairing nonbeliever (which I am), rather than an always happy believer in an illusion.

I don't want to turn this into a conversation about Fidel, since I do enough of that with other people. But if any of you haven't heard admiring things about the Cuban regime, you probably haven't been hanging out with the same circles as me.

Most Americans I know either don't care much one way or the other, about Fidel, or they admire him; I don't know very many people who are passionately against the Cuban regime. (In the Third World of course he is quite widely popular). A recent study that was done showed that I think about 15% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Fidel, and I would assume much higher among the left. That's not insignificant. Guevara, of course, continues to be a folk hero among quite a lot of people. While I'm critical of certain aspects of the Cuban revolution, and of Fidel's rule, my opinion is certainly of the form, more good than bad. My best friend is even much more pro-Cuban than I am, and sees very little negative about Fidel at all.

Regarding immigration restrictions: My parents emigrated from an Asian country in the 1960s, as part of the wave of emigration of skilled people. Their home country suffered quite a bit from people like them leaving. There is something to be said for third world countries placing some restrictions on emigration of skilled people.

Sorry for the interruption.

And once again philosophy is ahead of science. Why has no one mentioned Alasdair MacIntyre or Charles Taylor in any of these discussions? They have been making similar critiques/observations about our morality for the last 40-50 years. I would think they would be both quite pertinent to the critique of Enlightenment liberalism, secularism, and the place of religion in society.

And once again philosophy is ahead of science. Why has no one mentioned Alasdair MacIntyre or Charles Taylor in any of these discussions? They have been making similar critiques/observations about our morality for the last 40-50 years. I would think they would be both quite pertinent to the critique of Enlightenment liberalism, secularism, and the place of religion in society. I have yet to read Taylor's recent book "A Secular Age" but my suspicion is that it's a going to be a classic.

There are *lots* of people, however, who feel we have moved too far along the liberal axis vs. the republican (issues including: the economic liberty of, e.g., WalMart, the minimum wage, immigration, a legalistic culture). These concerns are shared by left and right (although, typically, with different emphasis), and I think Douthat is correct to note it as a flashpoint. Don't you agree?

baa:

It's hard to say, because the terms are amorphous. When you talk about "procedural liberalism" and "republican virtues," it looks like you're comparing apples (procedure, empty of content) and oranges (virtue, all content). The two seem effectively complimentary to me, whatever the specifics of the relevant definitions. To the extent you're leaning on "republican" as an indicator of a tradition protected from mob defilement, then the specific tradition is going to matter. (And there are a lot of those in this country. Douthat notes that this tradition varies by time and place, but treats only time. I think place is equally important and more relevant.)

I think you find the nearly parallel necessary comparators in majority rule/minority rights arguments, which really have been around forever. I'm hard pressed to see that we've gone too far in protecting against majoritarian tyrany. The lesson of the last six years, it seems to me, is directly contrary.

Hector writes: "My parents emigrated from an Asian country in the 1960s, as part of the wave of emigration of skilled people. Their home country suffered quite a bit from people like them leaving. There is something to be said for third world countries placing some restrictions on emigration of skilled people."

My parents came here from Ireland, Hector. I'm quite sure there's not a country in the world that saw a larger portion of its citizenry emigrate over a longer period of time than Ireland has. Of course that's largely stopped now that Ireland has perhaps the strongest economy in Europe and is now itself attracting immigrants.

But you're wrong here. Being able to leave - for whatever reason - is an essential human right. Fidel's regime has killed people for trying to leave. He's a murderous scumbag.

Now as to this "beehive" tyhing, there's nothing preventing people from living that way who want to. They need only find a like-minded spouse, like-minded friends and a like-minded church.

Well, but the tax system is such that if they have more than a couple of children the state (and late capitalism's drive for more workers) mean they will either be hard pressed to ever acquire a house unless both spouses work constantly, and if they want to go to the grocery store (because they can't grow their own vegetables anymore -- Voltaire's "let us tend our own gardens" is dead for good in most places) they will walk down the aisle surrounded by magazines that would have gotten the place burned down in more civilized times.

It's true that Republicans don't do much about this -- and perhaps there's little that can be done. Eliot aside, perhaps some causes are (for a while at least, which I suppose was his real point) lost. Still, on my whimsical days I'd give Daniel Larison and Wendell Berry dictatorial powers (which they'd probably reject) and see what happened.

I don't know about uniter/divider, but I think Sailer never had much use for Bush (or the Iraq war), Moe.

Derrick,

Alasdair MacIntyre is, on the whole of it, actually in favor of virtue and notions of human nature. This is good, but it doesn't make the NYT happy like having some SCIENCE behind such ideas does. Maybe if he'd done some polling or psychological tests or something, instead of reading Jane Austen and Aristotle and Nietzsche...

Given the rise in single-motherhood and the like, it is far from clear to me that the status quo is the mix best suited to the happiness of women. I'm sure some people think a few more government programs can remedy this, but I am skeptical.

Dilan's list doesn't come anywhere near reproducing 1950 -- and the items that are remotely plausible for enactment (yes, I'm _sure_ we'll see birth control banned soon, with Catholics using it at 90% rates -- just as television, with its pernicious effects on the minds of the young, is in constant danger of being outlawed) are in some cases more popular with women than with men -- aren't young women the most pro-life group in polls?

Steve Sailer says:

But ever since the triumph of the civil rights movement set the template of moral glamor once and for all, liberalism has been all about advancing the interests of minorities at the expense of the majority.

The long run problem for this world view is: what happens when there's no more majority left, when everybody's a minority?

MoeLarryandJesus replies:

What a pure load of crap. Repiglicans are all about advancing the interests of the top 1% - the rest is a smoke screen. This "they're out for the minorities" nonsense is just Nixon's Southern Strategy.

But this doesn't address Steve's claim about liberals (all of them!). It just changes to the subject to how conservatives are worse (all of them!). As far as I know both claims could be true.

TMoC tells me: "I don't know about uniter/divider, but I think Sailer never had much use for Bush (or the Iraq war), Moe."

You're right - I just now looked at his website. He broke with Bush on the immigration issue, which seems to be the most important thing in the world to him. The site contains endless race-baiting and the usual garbage from that end of the Streicher-esque right. He'd make a good ventriloquism dummy for Michael Savage, or a vicious camp commandant in the Tancredo administration.

TMoC writes: "Well, but the tax system is such that if they have more than a couple of children the state (and late capitalism's drive for more workers) mean they will either be hard pressed to ever acquire a house unless both spouses work constantly"

This is simply not true in America.

ML&J -

Depending on how you define "country", one could make a strong case for Armenia as the country that has seen the largest portion of its citizenry emigrate over the longest period. AFAIK, large scale Catholic Irish emigration didn't begin till the late 18thC - the large (~250k) Ulster Scots migration to North America beginning in 1717 was of people whose ancestors' residency in Ireland was fairly short, often only a couple of generations.

But I agree with what I think is your broader point that a large diaspora overall appears to strengthen that portion of the emigrants' people which remains in the home "country". My Armenian example being a case in point.

Where it may get more "interesting" in terms of externalities of emigration drain is in a postcolonial nation state without a strong central identity (e.g. India, the Philipines).

This is simply not true in America.

It's true in parts of America, certainly. Well, it's not true if the one working spouse has a heck of a good job, or if they live somewhere where housing is dirt cheap. But these aren't universal things.

TMoC wrote:

Still, on my whimsical days I'd give Daniel Larison and Wendell Berry dictatorial powers (which they'd probably reject) and see what happened.

I suspect you're right about Wendell Berry, but I imagine Larison would take the dictatorial powers, change a bunch of things, then resign the dictatorship and run for consul under his new (restricted) franchise. He's a big fan of Sulla (Hi, Daniel).

Haight's commentary isn't completely worthless, but (generally speaking) any model that tries to divide the entire world into two camps is only good for one thing: highlighting the advantages of your own philosophy and caricaturing everyone who disagrees with you.

Haight is trying to use a dichotomy to highlight the advantages of two different ways of thinking, and as a result he caricatures everyone on earth.

The Left and the Right each have individualist and communitarian impulses... the fundamental differences lie in the particular aspects of life that we want to address contractually and which ones we want to handle communally. Any explanation of "liberalism" that doesn't leave room for the motivations that created the social safety net is fatally flawed. Likewise, any explanation of "conservatism" that has no room for rugged individualism is a non-starter.

Can we retire the term "rugged individualism" already? It was in fashion during the Hoover administration.

empiricus writes: "Depending on how you define "country", one could make a strong case for Armenia as the country that has seen the largest portion of its citizenry emigrate over the longest period. AFAIK, large scale Catholic Irish emigration didn't begin till the late 18thC - the large (~250k) Ulster Scots migration to North America beginning in 1717 was of people whose ancestors' residency in Ireland was fairly short, often only a couple of generations."

I don't count the Ulster Scots as Irish. Don't get me started...

You may be right about Armenia - I'm not familiar with the emigration situation there before, during, or after the genocide. I do know how remarkable Irish immigration was throughout the 19th century and up through the late 20th, though.

In both cases we're talking about relatively small populations, which is what makes the percentage extraordinary. In terms of raw numbers of emigrants, China and India probably beat everyone else.

"Can we retire the term "rugged individualism" already? It was in fashion during the Hoover administration."

What, and spoil all our fun? It's such an inherently mockable turn of phrase. "Marlboro Man" is out of fashion, too. What is the right-libertarian buzzword for fetishistic individualism these days? Someone help me out.

Hi Moe,

i don't think Fidel is a 'murderous scumbag', but this blog probably isn't the place to argue the point; email me if you want to discuss it further.

Whether a state has the right to limit emigration and immigration is a tough question, as it balances individual rights over the needs of the collective. But I do think that emigration massively bled Third World countries of some of their most talented people, during the twentieth century, and had bad effects on their home countries. is there any point at which you would agree that some limitations on emigration are legitimate? For example, India spent massive amounts of money from its scarce education budget- money taken out of the primary school system- to create what became some of the world's best science/technology universities. Only to see a great part of the graduates of those universities (not all, but many) go to seek their fortune in Europe, the US, Australia or the Middle East. Cuba saw vast numbers of its skilled professionals emigrate, including most of its doctors, in the early 1960s; the advances they've made in public health since then are in spite of that great setback. Emigration of men from Central America to the US has created a female-dominated society and weakened family structures. Emigration of Lebanese Christians out of Lebanon was so massive that that country, founded to be a Christian homeleand, is now majority-Muslim. Wouldn't you recognize a problem in these instances, even if you may not think that there is any acceptable solution? Of course I wouldn't have been born if my parents had not been allowed to emigrate. But I think that the world as a whole would have been better off.

I agree that people should have a right to emigrate, but there should also be some restrictions. Perhaps a certain number of years of labor in your home country, to repay the country for its investment in your education and health, before you get a permit to emigrate?

Hector asks: "I agree that people should have a right to emigrate, but there should also be some restrictions. Perhaps a certain number of years of labor in your home country, to repay the country for its investment in your education and health, before you get a permit to emigrate?"

Sure, Hector, I can see the fairness of that. It's certainly not what Castro has been doing, however.

Freddie wrote:

"The problem, Steve, is that-- despite what you seem to think-- things are still much better for straight white men than anybody else. That is confirmed by almost any possible rubric we have for success in our culture."

I think the Duke lacrosse team would probably quibble with that statement, but more importantly, I don't think the main point is entirely accurate. From what I gather, Asian-Americans are the ones who are doing the best materially (which is not everything granted, but it certainly helps).

What is the right-libertarian buzzword for fetishistic individualism these days?

I don't know what they're calling themselves, but they do have a bootstrap fetish.

Uh torourke, a pretty telling bit about the Duke Lacrosse case is that in the end they were exonerated, an inept, corrupt DA tried to railroad them and being rich white guys they had the resources to fight it. How many poor black men in similar situations languish in prison?

ML&J -

Neither I nor anybody with a scrap of knowledge would consider the Scots-Irish to be Irish in the same sense of Irish as the descendants of people who were already living in Ireland in the 16th Century either (and I say that having one great grandparent who was born in Ireland and being also about 1/4 Scots Irish). That's why I listed them separately, in a failed attempt to make that clear.

As far as Armenians go, I suggest that you might want to expand your time horizons - very substantial emigration (and in some cases backflow into the Armenian homeland of emigrants' descendants after generations in diaspora) goes back to at least the 11th C, and possibly the 5th C.

To tie it back to Hector's original point and even loosely to the topic of Ross' post, the nominally same percentage population emigrating can have vastly different continued integration with the home country. e.g. for one, the large scale emigration from Norway and Sweden (mostly to N. America) doesn't appear to have produced the demographic or cultural backflow that you see with e.g. Irish (to a limited degree), Armenians, Lebanese, Chinese.

Re: 8. Giving husbands/boyfriends veto power over abortions.

Most (all?) social conservatives would not do that at all: they would ban abortions period, except maybe for a very narrow range of exceptions. I sdee no evidence that SoCons think abortion is A-OK if the baby's father allows it.

Re: Well, but the tax system is such that if they have more than a couple of children the state (and late capitalism's drive for more workers) mean they will either be hard pressed to ever acquire a house unless both spouses work constantly, and if they want to go to the grocery store (because they can't grow their own vegetables anymore -- Voltaire's "let us tend our own gardens" is dead for good in most places) they will walk down the aisle surrounded by magazines that would have gotten the place burned down in more civilized times.


I know some natalists who have had 6+ kids and manage to make ends meet (no they are not independently wealthy). And somehow they go grocery shopping without suffering a coronary over Maxim in aisle 10. And after all, titillting magazines, calendars etc were never rare in that old beehive. Long before Playboy there was the Policeman's Gazette, often displayed and available for perusal in every barber shop.

empiricus writes: "Neither I nor anybody with a scrap of knowledge would consider the Scots-Irish to be Irish in the same sense of Irish as the descendants of people who were already living in Ireland in the 16th Century either (and I say that having one great grandparent who was born in Ireland and being also about 1/4 Scots Irish). That's why I listed them separately, in a failed attempt to make that clear."

You were very clear. That's why I answered that part of your comment in a single line paragraph that was meant humorously. (Don't get me started...) I guess the joke didn't work, but you were perfectly clear and I agree with you.

I think the Duke lacrosse team would probably quibble with that statement, but more importantly, I don't think the main point is entirely accurate.

That is an example that proves my point, not yours. Hundreds of black men are falsely accused of rape in this country every year. Nobody cares. Those privileged white kids get accused, the DA is fired, disbarred, and charged with crimes. It's on the cover of every newspaper. It's all you hear about for months. So who's disadvantaged?

And, more importantly-- that one piece of anecdotal evidence doesn't and shouldn't move anyone.

"That is an example that proves my point, not yours. Hundreds of black men are falsely accused of rape in this country every year. Nobody cares. Those privileged white kids get accused, the DA is fired, disbarred, and charged with crimes. It's on the cover of every newspaper. It's all you hear about for months. So who's disadvantaged?"

Overall I think you're correct that blacks suffer disproportionately at the hands of our criminal justice system. I have no solid numbers to back this up, but I think this intuition is probably correct. My guess is that there are poor whites who are also falsely accused of rape and get no attention called to their plight, but again blacks, especially poor blacks, probably suffer from this more.

But in the Duke instance, the fact that the players were white and upper class counted as strikes against them in the court of public opinion, and in the treatment of the players by the university and the press. In addition to the three players being railroaded by Nifong, the lacrosse players were essentially declared guilty by 88 professors at the university in a public statement in one of the campus newspapers (no doubt these professors considered themselves open-minded, tolerant, etc.),
two lacrosse players were assigned failing grades on assignments by a professor who was one of the 88, etc. The failing grade nearly prevented one of the players from graduating. Ultimately these grades were changed and there is a lawsuit pending, but it is hard to imagine the Duke faculty acting in such a sanctimonious manner were the students black basketball players accused of raping a white stripper. And the media was initially in a frenzy of "white, privileged athletes" preying on poor black women in a story that seemed to confirm the preconceived notions of the liberal chattering class with respect to race, class, and gender. So it's a bit disingenuous to state that the media was all over the unraveling of the case and the disgrace of Nifong and not mention that the media drove the meta-story of "white, privileged athletes" in the first place.

So in this one particular case, I think being white was a disadvantage, and I stand by my original statement that the Duke lacrosse team would "quibble" with your remark. That being said, I think your larger point is correct that whites are better off on virtually every rubric of success in our society.
But my main point, which has taken me a long time to get to, is that, again, Asian-Americans are doing the best right now, and it would be interesting to hash out why this is the case. My own view is that their low illegitimacy rates and strong emphasis on education and deferred gratification have led them to outperform everyone else. But this discussion will probably have to wait for another day.

"And, more importantly-- that one piece of anecdotal evidence doesn't and shouldn't move anyone."

Well, I think MLK Jr. said it best that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, no matter who is being railroaded. We should be outraged by the Duke situation as well as the Jena 6 situation if we are fundamentally concerned about justice.

torourke writes: "But in the Duke instance, the fact that the players were white and upper class counted as strikes against them in the court of public opinion, and in the treatment of the players by the university and the press. In addition to the three players being railroaded by Nifong, the lacrosse players were essentially declared guilty by 88 professors at the university in a public statement in one of the campus newspapers (no doubt these professors considered themselves open-minded, tolerant, etc.),
two lacrosse players were assigned failing grades on assignments by a professor who was one of the 88, etc. The failing grade nearly prevented one of the players from graduating. Ultimately these grades were changed and there is a lawsuit pending, but it is hard to imagine the Duke faculty acting in such a sanctimonious manner were the students black basketball players accused of raping a white stripper. And the media was initially in a frenzy of "white, privileged athletes" preying on poor black women in a story that seemed to confirm the preconceived notions of the liberal chattering class with respect to race, class, and gender. So it's a bit disingenuous to state that the media was all over the unraveling of the case and the disgrace of Nifong and not mention that the media drove the meta-story of "white, privileged athletes" in the first place."

This is a completely one-sided account of the media coverage of this case. There were plenty of indications in the MSM from the very beginning that this was a bullshit case. I thought it was from almost the very start. Accounts of the one accused player who had ATM receipts and a cab driver who gave him an alibi came out quickly. So too did the prior history of the stripper.

You mention 88 professors, which is a small percentage of professors at a school the size of Duke. You mention one professor who behaved idiotically. You also fail to mention that the players have in fact already settled a lawsuit with Duke. They're now suing the city for $30 million dollars. Despite serving no prison time these kids could walk away from all of this as millionaires. I suggest you are presenting a one-sided case because you care less about the truth than you do about your "white guys got screwed" scenario.

Sure, some douchebags like Nancy Grace jumped all over these guys, but she's a conservative hack. There were numerous voices of restraint, and the case was resolved relatively quickly and with a HUGE amount of positive publicity for the players.

All of these young men will be made whole and will probably actually benefit from their status as wounded veterans of the "culture war." Your example does indeed argue against your basic position.

The beehive/contractualist metaphor is a good one but Richard Rorty's treatment of the tensions here is for my money a richer one. For him, the tension is between society's promotion of solidarity (which encompassses the beehive proclivities) and one that supports personal projects of self creation (a richer sense of the the contractual, which is best solution compromise.) In fact, IMHO, both faces of this beehive/contract metaphorical coin are lacking in their descriptions of their adherents. Beehive does not get at the sense of longing for solidarity that goes beyond a hive of one's own (even if that longing translates into evangelism and conversion at the point of a gun or bomb, or international globalism); the contractual as described does not admit the unfathomable depths of experience and obligations that the existentialist experiences in his or her personhood, which are the experiences that fuel and shape the want for personal self-creation projects (a al Rorty's liberal ironist.) Those personal longings are just as pre-obligated as the one's Burke speaks of for beehive-ists. Which leads me to conclude, though, much along Ross's and Rorty's line that we do best to opt for the formal contractual in our governmental set up — although this cuts deeply into the craw of the real beehive enthusiasts, the "fundamentalists" in each and every society and tradition.

Chris

I always read Rorty as championing the idea that the only enlightened sense of solidarity among men is in the irony they find upon realization of their contingent status.

Ross made a pretty big switch in his argument here. He starts off talking about loners, dissenters, those who tear up society by the roots. But what are the examples cited? Women, racial minorities, gays and lesbians. Really? They're causing our society to break down? Isn't it the other way around? What about the bullies doing all the harm?

It's pretty rich to exclude a bunch of people and then blame them for our problems.

I have another idea. Let's stop mistreating these people and let them join our bowling leagues, churches, and get married too. Then we can go back to the 1950s social consensus but this time with no one excluded. Let's have a society worth conserving.

And you know what, this is happening already. It sure is on my street (I think quality of gardening is a sure sign of social conservatism, and by this measure my diverse little corner of Seattle can't be exceeded). And this is no thanks to Republican Party and the exclusionary social conservatives.

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