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Why We Fight?

04 Sep 2007 11:26 am

troops5.jpg

Citing this Newsweek piece on the ethnic cleansing that's ongoing even during the "surge," both Kevin Drum and Matt suggest that, in Matt's words, "it's worth considering the possibility that the essential 'plan' in Iraq is just to stay there, in force, vaguely allied with whichever side (or sides) we perceive to be willing to ally with us, until, eventually, the civil war ends, a brilliant victory is portrayed, and the hippie peacenik scum are told to beat it. After all, civil wars do end if you just wait long enough."

Take out the sneering and yes, this is the case for staying in Iraq that seems most persuasive to me at the moment. By remaining there in force, this argument runs, the U.S. can mitigate the violence associated with ethnic cleansing, degrade al Qaeda's capabilities, and prevent the bloodletting from spreading beyond Iraq's borders - with the long-term goal of ensuring that the civil war burns itself out with as few civilian casualties and as little collateral damage to U.S. interests in the region as possible. The hope would be that Iraq eventually settles into a relatively stable state of de facto partition, with a weak central government and strong regional power centers, and with the various fault lines policed by a much-reduced American force. And were this goal achieved you would declare victory, not to stick it to the hippies but because that's what you would have won - not the victory we hoped for in 2003, certainly, and the not the kind of victory that lends itself to Gettysburg analogies, but victory of a certain kind nonetheless.

Now it may be that the American presence in Iraq, far from mitigating the violence, is actually making it worse (by effectively funneling arms to sectarian militias, etc. etc.). And it may be, as Matt says, that the civil war could take decades rather than years to burn itself out. Both of these possibilities, along with the ongoing loss of life, the cost of the occupation, and so forth, militate against the "stay till it burns itself out" strategy. But given that most of the plans for phased withdrawal that I've seen run the risk of ending up as a more-ineffectual variant of exactly the same strategy we're employing now - with a much-reduced U.S. presence trying to, well, fight al Qaeda and mitigate the ongoing violence - it's hard for me to dismiss the idea that staying in strength might be the lesser of two evils.

Update: I should note that this Hilzoy post, despite some fuzzy math in the title, is the most comprehensive rebuttal I've seen to the "stay till it burns out" point of view.

U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Scott Taylor.

Comments (35)

"...{i}t's hard for me to dismiss the idea that staying in strength might be the least bad option we have."

2003 - Let's invade Iraq since we can't think of a way to get Osama, and because we can find Iraq on a map!

2007 - Let's stay in Iraq because we're not absolutely sure we shouldn't stay!

The "thinking" on the right doesn't seem to be getting less stupid, does it?

... degrade al Qaeda's capabilities ...

Yeah. That's exactly what's going on.
Al Qaeda in messopotamia can't exist without american boots on the ground. Take away the American army and every other player in the arena, kurd, sunni tribe, shiite, saudi, jordan, syria, turky, iran, kuwait. Everyone is gonna want to kill these trouble making teenage yahoo miscreants. The US is getting in the way of stability.
As for the civil war burning out, well as Nir Rosen points out the Sunnis of Baghdad are going the way of the buffalo. Is the US committed to putting them back? How many casualties do you want to spend in that effort? General Odom is so right about all this. Too bad the Pentagon has buckled under to the Pres. I guess they felt they had no choice.

The Iraqis don't want us in their--repeat, their--country. I realize that at this point hawks are willing to place the "national interest" above such petty facts, but unless we are prepared to embrace--rather than merely follow--the path of 19th century Britain, the idea of outright imperialism ought to make us inclined to withdraw.

The "stay-till-it-burns-out" (STIBO, for short) strategy worked oh so well for the British in Northern Ireland. and in India. and in the United States (although our desire for independence outweighed, from 1776 to 1861, our desire to resolve the slavery issue). and in the Philippines.

civil war ended in former Yugoslavia once ethnic cleansing was complete, and notably we waited until after the war was largely over before stationing troops there.

It's very difficult not to be sneering when you miss the fundamental point that BY STAYING WE ARE PREVENTING THINGS FROM BURNING OUT!

what compromise will Sadr accept? or SCIRI? or Dawa? or the Sunni tribes? the only way to know is to leave, let them face the reality of nation building, and then see if we're welcome to come back to help keep the peace.

Al Qaeda is hated by almost all Iraqis. When we leave, al Qaeda stops getting to train against and kill our troops, and it gets pummeled by Iraqis.

Doesn't mean that a stable pro-western democracy would run Iraq, but enabling and training al Qaeda is a reason for us to leave, not to stay.

"victory of a certain kind nonetheless" ... ah, yes, I recommend looking it up under the term "pyrrhic victory."

Elvis and Northern Observer,

What evidence is there that our presence is inhibiting Iraqis from fighting al Qaeda? Our presence obviously isn't preventing the Anbar tribes from taking up arms against al Qaeda, since they are fighting with our troops now.

What evidence is there that the Iraqis would be better at fighting al Qaeda without U.S. support?

The notion that our troops are merely serving as training targets for al Qaeda is patently ridiculous. They've killed thousands of them, and captured thousands more. They've driven al Qaeda out of any city or town that they've wanted to - the problem has been holding that territory, not the ability to take out al Qaeda.

If we leave peremptorily al Qaeda will be strengthened, Iran will be strengthened, and the Shiite militias will be strengthened. And U.S. credibility will be shot for a generation or more. It's also possible that the entire Middle East would turn into a bloodbath. These things are all much worse than the current situation for both Iraqis and the U.S. The cost-benefit analysis only comes out in favor of leaving if one assumes that these negatives are inevitable, so it's better to get them over with sooner rather than later. But these results are not inevitable - the future will be shaped by the choices we make now.

Ashish,

The Iraqis don't want us in their--repeat, their--country.

Show me the calls from Iraqis that we leave now. Obviously they don't want us there indefinitely, but they don't want us to leave momentarily either.

S Mike rambles on and on about al Qaeda as though he's an actual parrot trained by the Bushpigs themselves, and I can only wonder how a parrot types.

In any event I'm not sure why it isn't clear to anyone that if all of the "al Qaeda" activity in Iraq ceased tomorrow it would scarcely be noticed. Or that whoever and whatever is calling itself "al Qaeda" in Iraq has little or nothing to do with the Osama organization.

If we invade Iran an "al Qaeda" will be found there, and the Bushpigs will start the same old crap all over again - trying to say this is all connected to 9/11, as they hope people will be stupid enough to swallow those lies again.

Moe writes in a way that's almost guaranteed to inflame, rather than enlighten. To what benefit? Presumably you're trying to make your case and persuade those who disagree with you, Mike, but your chosen tactic is almost certain to fail, at least in that regard.

Or perhaps you're just here to yell and call names, in which case you've obviously succeeded, but to what end?

Sorry: was speaking to Moe again in the 3rd line, not Mike. Apologies.

"If we leave peremptorily al Qaeda will be strengthened, Iran will be strengthened, and the Shiite militias will be strengthened."

So two opposing sides will be strengthened? This is stupid analysis. Iran is backing the same government we say we are backing. The Shi'ite militias are often just the Iraqi military's night shift. Also, opinion polls of Iraqis show (that with the exception of the Kurds) Arab Iraqis support attacks on US troops and want the US out of their country. Would you support the troops that were responsible for Haditha and Abu Ghraib if they were in your country? Understanding this is Nationalism 101.

Chris writes: "Moe writes in a way that's almost guaranteed to inflame, rather than enlighten. To what benefit?"

I've had numerous conflicts with Mike before, Chris, and he's not enlightenable. He is a True Believer, and so he is capable of writing a post in which he pretends (because Bush has told him so) that al Qaeda is THE MAJOR ENEMY in Iraq. That al Qaeda in Iraq is no such thing and is only a minor factor in the violence there is not something he is prepared to acknowledge or comprehend.

I truly don't care if you see a benefit in that or not.

Moe, if you really believed that Mike was that dense, why bother interacting with him? If not for him, than for whom are you writing? I propose that the rhetorical style you've chosen is likely only to get "Amens" from your choir and little from anyone else, on the fence or the other side. If that's fine with you, then so be it... perhaps we have different conceptions of the purposes of political argument.

Ross's argument is what Hilzoy calls "benefit anlysis" rather than "cost-benefit anlysis". The cost of remaining in force (blood, treasuse, continued loss of American prestige, continuing American diplomatic isolation, the inability to use those forces elsewhere, etc.) and the fact that that cost continues indefinitely has to be weighed against the hypothetical benefits of still having a presence in Iraq if things ever settle down. It's not a bargin.

Chris again: "Moe, if you really believed that Mike was that dense, why bother interacting with him? If not for him, than for whom are you writing? I propose that the rhetorical style you've chosen is likely only to get "Amens" from your choir and little from anyone else, on the fence or the other side. If that's fine with you, then so be it... perhaps we have different conceptions of the purposes of political argument."

I suppose we do.

I write for myself. If others happen to enjoy it and get something from it - and I have plenty of evidence that some do both - that's great, but I don't require it. I'm not a missionary. I'm expressing my perspective. I'm extremely tired of the Mikes of the world and the mess their True Believing has enabled in this country (and beyond). I plan to point this out with great frequency until I feel it's no longer needed.

For some reason that seems to bother you, but trust me - I don't care, even a little bit. Play hall monitor all you want, but I won't show you my pass.

"Why We Fight"?

Well unless your a G.I. over in Iraq( you are not), you Ross Douthat, aren't part of "We". Your just a chickenhawk writing from the safety of your cozy den. Invariably the bigger the cheerleader for staying in this fiasco, the further from the frontline said cheerleader resides. It's simply an immutable law of nature. The cheerleader analogy is quite apt,as we all know cheerleaders are more likely to get a hangnail then take a bodyblow.

You needn't worry, Moe: I know that you don't care. I am just making the point that a shrill voice isn't easy to listen to, but it doesn't seem that you're interested in being heard by anyone but those of identical mind... fair enough. Echo chamber away.

Oh, forgot to add: the only reason your style "bothers" me is because I think it's the dominant style of political "discourse" today (on both sides of the aisle), and I don't think it does the country any good. I am naive enough to believe in the power of persuasion and reasonable discourse, while also recognizing that disagreeing with me on any particular set of issues does not the devil (or an ignoramus) you make.

Apparently you disagree. So be it.

Chris replies: "Oh, forgot to add: the only reason your style "bothers" me is because I think it's the dominant style of political "discourse" today (on both sides of the aisle), and I don't think it does the country any good. I am naive enough to believe in the power of persuasion and reasonable discourse, while also recognizing that disagreeing with me on any particular set of issues does not the devil (or an ignoramus) you make."

You are indeed naive, Chris, and you're simply wrong about this "both sides of the aisle" crap. For years the Repiglicans have been screaming and smearing and calling those who disagree with them "shrill," among other terms. People who said the Iraq war was an ill-planned disaster from the very beginning were often called "shrill."

It's not "shrill" to point out that the S Mikes of the world are True Believers who have led us into a cesspool and are still spouting the same old nonsense as though nothing untoward has happened. You may want to sit down and make nice with such people. I'm no longer interested in doing that. It doesn't work.

I look forward to reading your next 100 posts and forgetting them almost immediately because your major concern is appearing reasonable and un-shrill and you don't actually care about anything enough to risk offending anyone.

Moe, almost all of your posts are full of insults of those you disagree with, yet you try to claim that it's only the other side which insults their opponents? Ever heard of DailyKos, et al.? There's *plenty* of bile to go around.

Apparently, you believe it's impossible to actually take positions and at the same time civilly interact with those who disagree with you. What a lousy outlook. If someone is offended by my positions, so be it. The difference between us is that your style almost guarantees that you'll piss the other guy off & consequently not be heard, while I at least attempt to persuade. I'm doubting that it's working, but I haven't written you off yet. :-)

moe,
so i'm hearing that you have given up trying to change the mind of anyone who doesn't believe that the iraq war was and is a terrible idea and that we should withdraw our troops.

i think it's worth it to try, because they're people, not demons, and furthermore, a lot of that 70+% of americans who now think bush is fucking up iraq voted for him in 2004, and are only against him now because they think he screwed up a swimmingly good and moral idea with a great chance for success. if we don't persuade them, as well as many of the loyal ~30% remaining bush supporters of how wrong that is, our nation risks repeating the same mistakes, based on the same willfully ignorant, enraged hysteria that led us down this path to begin with. this is why calm, reasoned, patient, and informed public discourse is vital to our republic's health, and why its health is failing today.

Chris replies: "Moe, almost all of your posts are full of insults of those you disagree with, yet you try to claim that it's only the other side which insults their opponents? Ever heard of DailyKos, et al.? There's *plenty* of bile to go around."

I never said it was only the other side, Chris. Ever. I will say that the "left" side was far too passive for far too long in the face of the Rush/Coulter/Savage pitbull attacks, though.

I'm certainly glad that's changed somewhat, and I'm glad Kos exists. I certainly don't think they're anything like the stupid bastards of the right, but I'm glad they're willing to mix it up with the liars and the morons. Is it "bile" to point out that the Iraq War is a mess and that anyone still pushing the administration line on it may just be insane, stupid, or both?

I'm trying to figure out how anyone could be offended by your positions, Chris. Perhaps I'll have a better idea once I actually see you take one.

sv writes: "if we don't persuade them, as well as many of the loyal ~30% remaining bush supporters of how wrong that is, our nation risks repeating the same mistakes,"

I don't think many of the remaining Bush supporters can be convinced of any such thing, sv, unless some new brain surgery technique in invented. These are people who heard or read Dumbya's recent comments comparing Iraq to Vietnam and thought the moron had made a good point.

True Believers exist, and very few of them will ever change. The ones who do won't change because of message board posts.

Reality Man,

So two opposing sides will be strengthened? This is stupid analysis. Iran is backing the same government we say we are backing.

Of course multiple opposing sides can be strengthened - they are all opposed to us, first, and will be strengthened if they are perceived to have fought off the giant. I'm not sure what it means to say that Iran is backing the government - if that is so, wouldn't their goal be to calm things down so that we would withdraw our troops? In which case, why are they stoking the sectarian fighting and attacking our troops? I think Iran wants Iraq destabilized so that it can gain de facto power over it, which they currently do not have.

The Shi'ite militias are often just the Iraqi military's night shift.

I think it is more apt to say that the Shiite militias have infiltrated the army (to a lesser extent) and the police (to a greater extent). But they can, and are, being removed.

Also, opinion polls of Iraqis show (that with the exception of the Kurds) Arab Iraqis support attacks on US troops and want the US out of their country.

How recent are those polls? It is clear that in many areas, the calculus of the Sunnis has changed. I don't doubt that a majority of Arabs want us out of the country, but the question is under what terms. If they really wanted us gone, they'd be making much more noise to that effect.

Would you support the troops that were responsible for Haditha and Abu Ghraib if they were in your country? Understanding this is Nationalism 101.

Well, all of the soldiers charged in the Haditha case, save one I believe, have been exonerated of wrongdoing. I'm honored to have such men fighting for me. The more pertinent question, however, is how the desire that the Iraqis have that we leave compares to their desire not to have their country descend into a bloodbath, with a new tyranny imposed at the end of it. Another aspect of Nationalism 101 is that one must publicly claim that the foreign occupiers must leave, even if one wants them to stay until security can be adequately provided by Iraqis.

True Believers exist, and very few of them will ever change. The ones who do won't change because of message board posts.

How do you know that you're not the "true believer" who's view of the world is warped by his ideological commitments?

S Mike quotes and asks: "True Believers exist, and very few of them will ever change. The ones who do won't change because of message board posts.

How do you know that you're not the "true believer" who's view of the world is warped by his ideological commitments? "

I'm a committed skeptic, that's how. And you mean "whose view."

Look, Mikey, I've read enough of your posts to realize that you do not think non-Bush thoughts. Your post at 9:45 where you use "al Qaeda" SEVEN times looks like an outtake from one of the moron's VFW speeches. I'd have to be drawing a weekly paycheck from the Onion before I could make myself write such putrid propagandistic crap, even in jest.

Of course none of this will help you. You'll probably think I'm working for al Qaeda.

Lest anyone is inclined to take Moe seriously, keep in mind that he thinks that the U.S. Army had Pat Tillman murdered because he espoused anti-Iraq War views. How far up does the conspiracy go, Moe? The Pentagon? The Joint Chiefs? Did Bush himself give the order?

S Mike lies like the Bushpigs he worships: "Lest anyone is inclined to take Moe seriously, keep in mind that he thinks that the U.S. Army had Pat Tillman murdered because he espoused anti-Iraq War views."

I have never said any such thing. Nor do I believe it. I do believe that the Army and the Bush administration committed multiple acts of necrophilia/propaganda on Tillman's corpse, though. And they're still lying right in the faces of the Tillman family. The S Mikes of the world think that's just swell.

Moe said

Thomas Nelson writes: "Consider how things stand.

The magazine is standing by a story the author has said is false."

I haven't seen the evidence for this, but considering that the author is an active military person and subject to the Pat Tillman treatment if he doesn't play along, who knows what he'll say?

Would I be surprised if he turned up dead? No. The Abu Ghraib whistleblower was outed by Donnie Rumsfeld. Pat Tillman was murdered and then used obscenely by liars.

Why do cons still trust this government in these matters? I guess when they say "support the troops" they mean "obey Bush or die."

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 11, 2007 2:05 AM

I am currently a lieutenant serving abroad in Baghdad Iraq. I can sa that I firmly agree with the assessment that our presence is needed to maintain stability for Iraq and the United States. The failure of this tottering state would prove to be a major emotional event for the Middle-East. The only comment I have is that from my experiences the current "civil war" is not one about "ethnic cleansing." In too many ways, a war is being waged in Iraq versus the "Haves" and "Have-Nots" of society (it just so happens that the Sunni minority has historically been the haves). Much sectarian violence and activities executed by The Mahdi Milita revolve more around criminal rackets and petty thuggery (extortion, theft, protection rackets...etc). At any rate, a difference is being made, but a rapid pull out could prove disastrous to the War effort and threaten to distabilize the entire region. Are actions here have consequences that will reverberate throughout the rest of the world.

It seems that Osama thinks Iraq is an important battle against the U.S.

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