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The Art of the Possible

16 Oct 2007 09:42 am

Jonah G., on the question of whether we should have taken down the Soviets circa 1947, instead of wimping out, Kennan-style, and reconciling ourselves to two generations of enervating containment:

Before one engages the question of what was possible, it makes sense — and is very clarifying — to address the question of what was most desirable. And on this score, it seems to me any realistic examination of costs and benefits would find that it would have been far more preferable to take care of the Soviets at the time. It would have saved lives, reduced misery, unleashed prosperity, diminished fear and improved the lives of millions if not billions of people for two or more generations in innumerable ways. Contrafactuals are often childish because we never know what resides behind curtain number 2 when we retroactively decide we shouldn't have opted for curtain number 1. But, it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that if we'd forced regime change on the Soviet Union in, say, 1946, that there would have been no Vietnam and, perhaps, no Korean War and no permanently Red China (which alone would have reduced the pile of 20th century corpses considerably). Eastern Europe would not have been immiserated and enslaved. While the space program would have suffered without the Space Race, it seems a sure bet that the net gain of liberated human genius would more than have compensated for that.

The reason this is important is that there seem to be lots of people who think the Cold War was not merely the best we could get, but the ideal policy option period. It wasn't. The Cold War consensus agreed to kick the can down the road for half a century, leaving open all sorts of terrible possibilities regime change would have foreclosed. It maintained a balance of terror, and wrote-off millions of decent freedom-loving people to economic misery and political tyranny and warped our own politics and economy in not entirely healthy ways.

I certainly don't disagree that the Cold War was very, very bad for America in myriad ways, but I’m skeptical about Jonah’s formulation that we should always address the question of what’s “most desirable” before engaging the question of what’s actually possible. Yes, considering the ideal outcome can be clarifying in some cases, but it’s just as likely to degenerate into an exercise in fantasy politics. Of course it would have been desirable for the U.S. to find some relatively low-cost way to “take out” Russia’s Communist Party in the late 1940s and install a more democratic, pro-American government in Moscow; of course managing this trick would have spared our country, and the world, countless miseries over the next five decades. (Though the law of unintended consequences is a harsh mistress, and a different set of miseries might have come rushing in to fill the breach.) But low-cost regime change in late-1940s Russia was so far outside the realm of possibility (even before Stalin acquired atomic weapons) that I don’t see what’s gained by insisting that we give the ideal outcome its due; I don’t think it’s all that meaningful, frankly, to talk about “ideal policy options” that weren’t really options at all. Particularly since history is littered with policymakers who spent so much time meditating on the awesomeness of the the “desirable” option that they persuaded themselves to ignore all the reasons that it wasn't actually possible and go for it anyway.

I’m thinking of outrageous figures like Napoleon and Hitler, of course, both of whom actually attempted regime change in Russia; I’m also thinking of less extreme cases, in recent American history, where people who marched into folly because their gaze was fixed rather too firmly on their ideal ends. I’m thinking of the conservatives whose (entirely understandable) desire to roll back the horrors of Communism led them to rally around Douglas MacArthur’s half-cocked attempt to start World War III with China; I’m thinking of the liberals who staffed the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations and drove our country into a ditch at home and abroad; and yes, I’m thinking of the supporters of the Iraq War, myself included, who spent way too much time thinking about the ideal outcome in the Middle East, and not nearly enough time counting the cost of getting there.

On that last matter, here’s Jonah, in a later post:

Here's where I am coming from. I think the best possible policy toward Red China is regime change. Ditto North Korea. Ditto Iran. But, right now, the costs are just way too high to even consider forcibly removing those regimes. So we settle for some mixture of detente, containment and the Reagan and Truman Doctrines. These are all compromises. We did — and do — what we can, where we can. The problem with the Cold War approach to Iraq in the 1990s wasn't merely that it was terrible policy, but that it was unnecessary. We could have toppled Saddam in 1991. We could have supported the Shiites and Kurds. But for some people, the containment approach seemed the best approach in and of itself rather than a fallback, least worst, option. That is what I meant.

Insofar as Jonah means that the ideal outcome in Iraq would be for someone to take a time machine back to 1991 and tell George H.W. Bush to think twice about hanging the Shi’ite rebels out to dry, I basically agree. Insofar as he means that the cost of removing Saddam ourselves in the early ‘00s was low enough to make the ideal outcome of regime change worth pursuing in the manner that we did – well, I’d say the jury’s still out on that one. And I think there’s a very good chance that even if we stagger to some sort of less-than-horrible endgame in Iraq, our invasion and the carnage that followed in its wake will be remembered as a case study in why meditating on ideal outcomes can confuse as often as it clarifies.

Comments (28)

Hey, did you catch his later post where he implies that the New Deal was as onerous to the American people as WWII, and that a war with the Soviets would have been no more taxing than putting up with the New Deal for ten years? Yeesh.

Excellent post. To go a step further, if we're thinking about the "most desirable" approach and assuming that whatever approach we pick will be a low cost success, then wasn't the "most desirable" approach to engage diplomatically with Stalin and convince him to liberalize Russia?

Why does Goldberg assume that US foreign policy, or any state's foreign policy for that matter, should be driven by some ideal moral goal? Is he conflating his normative assumption that US policy should be moral first with his positive assumption that US policy was primarily moral in the early Cold War? Maybe thats the root of the problem that Ross uncovered.

Its no coincidence that the Truman doctrine and the merger between US oil companies and ARAMCO occurred on the same day.

A great post from Ross here. It seems that the more the neocons fail, the more utopian they get. NRO has really gone off the deep end here.

Yes, Jonah's right: a war with the Soviet Union was just what the world, especially the western allies would have wanted in the aftermath of WW2. Why, the immediate popularity of such in the US would have been considerable. Doubtless, Jonah - thinking back on his own wartime experience - assumes it would have been very much a "shock and awe" kind of thing, and easily done (not that we wouldn't have gotten our hair mussed up) and so is certain the huge armed forces we built up would have eagerly reported for this. And sending a massive assault on the Soviets would surely be just the thing. I'm surprised anyone would think it was crazy. Or divorced from reality. Surely Jonah is way ahead of wimps like Kennan and Acheson and Marshall and Truman as a first-rate geopolitical planner. And comic.

Frankly, I find the idea of a "most desirable" result separated from the "really possible" one almost absurd. It seems to confuse ends with means in a strange and moralistic sort of way. ¿What's after all, the point of imagining ideal outcomes but to help us to figure out our objectives? Certainly the point should not be imagining how wonderfully good would have been to obtain everything we wanted without any cost, right childish fantasy rarely serves any purpose)?. And Jonah's argument about the desirability of containment regarding Saddam is a proof of this confusion. There is no mention of a political objective anywhere to be found (except toppling Saddam, apparently for the fun of it). Removing Hussein from power is not a valuable objective if the ensuing political situation is even worse for you (an outcome that seemed likely). Only after separating those two ideas, the removal of Saddam (easy) and the creation of a desired political outcome (hard) is it possible to properly understand the history and evolution of the conflict.

Ross, thanks for trying to explain this extremely obvious logical point to Jonah and the Corner. (I mean this seriously!)

Jonah Goldberg is an unhinged warmongering fool. The notion that the US could have "taken out" the USSR in 1946 while also occupying Japan and maintaining forces in Germany is absurd - but since what Goldberg and the rest of the chickenhawk neocons seem to want is a state of perpetual war (albeit without participating themselves, ever) I suppose it's a pleasant engorgement fantasy for him.

The questions is how Jonah thinks we would have affected regime change in the Soviet Union circa 1947.

Nuclear weapons?

Seriously: Is he saying we should have nuked Moscow - and possibly Leningrad and Stalingrad and other Soviet cities in order to pound the USSR into submission? Because I don't see how it would have been possible to have affected regime change without doing so. The Soviets had just turned back the mighty Wehrmacht, yet we - from across the Atlantic, with a mighty military machine but frankly nothing compared to the size of the Soviet armed forces - were going to succeed where they failed?

This is utopianism at its worst. This is the neoconservative dreamer's view of history - and, unfortunately, of the present. Since we missed the opportunity to go for the ideal (as in idealistic) policy then, surely we must always opt for the ideal policy now, regardless of how unrealistic it actually is.

This is just a repeat of what the same fools were saying in the 50s. Next we'll hear the denunciation of Roosevelt-was-a-Commie-sympathizer, and Truman-lost-China. They'll comdemn Hilary for the Yalta Accord. Bill Buckley will rush back into print with 'McCarthy and His Enemies'. They'll drag old Whittaker Chambers back from his grave in a pumpkin field.

They are like Louis 14th: never forgot anything, never learned anything.

Pathetic. The right wing is just...pitiful.

Of course "nuke Moscow" was an idea put forth, some claim, very roughly, if memory serves, by noted neo-conservative Bertrand Russell.

I don't think much of Goldberg's hypothesizing here, but a point that's not well taken into account in some responses is that we did in fact play a bit of a gamble there, though I fail to see how it could have been done differently. Not so much with respect to the suffering behind the Iron Curtain, but from a probabilistic look at the chance that, once the USSR had the Bomb, it would someday either seize a chance for a first strike due to some technological/political windfall or collapse in chaos (as it halfway, in fact did) and launch off a lethal death-spasm as part of some endgame civil war. That kind of thing -- the chance of a non-Cold ending to the Cold war, still doesn't seem completely absurd to me, and was presumably at the heart of Russell's argument for a cold-blooded first strike , if he made such an argument.

Even Goldberg's fallback position is troublesome.

Sure, we'd all like to see democracy in every country. (Except for Pakistan and Venezuela, of course).

But to go around talking about how we want China and Iran's governments collapse does not encourage China and Iran to do anything good. Be prepared for war, and engage in careful and thorough diplomacy. That policy worked against the USSR.

Whereas the "Boundless Unilateral Antagonism" policy hasn't managed to push Fidel from power.

Maybe next we can discuss why America failed, following our victory over the British in 1783, to sail the Continental Army across the Atlantic and liberate Ireland.

Or, closer to home, how could we have allowed our Canadian friends to suffer under the cruel monarchist heel for so long? How did we allow ourselves to be bullied into trading in "54-40 or fight" for "49-0 and an open northern border?"

The most generous reading that I can give this is that he isn't actually suggesting that we should have gone to war with the Soviets, only that it would have been really, really nice if we could have deposed them; however, if that's the thesis then I'm perplexed as to the point of it.

Do we normally judge history on the basis of the most desirable theoretical outcome without giving any consideration as to whether said outcome was plausible or even possible? That seems a rather inverted way to study the subject.

Maybe Jonah Goldberg has a point. When has there been an invasion of Russia that hasn't worked?

Every invasion of Russia?

Rickm has to explain the joke: "Every invasion of Russia?"

Uh, dude.

Everyone got it already. Apologize to Lev for stepping on his joke.

John Savage,

NRO has really gone off the deep end here.

Comments by a single author in The Corner do not reflect the opinions of "NRO". They post editorials for that.

Elvis,

But to go around talking about how we want China and Iran's governments collapse does not encourage China and Iran to do anything good.

I assume you are referring to the Chinese and Iranian governments. The Eastern Bloc dissidents were greatly heartened by Reagan's "inflammatory rhetoric". And the Soviet leaders were incensed by it, because it made clear the moral travesty that they were perpetrating on their citizens.

When we were more aggressive, militarily or rhetorically, the Vietnamese treated the POWs better. When we were softer, militarily or rhetorically, they treated them worse. Sometimes putting pressure on adversarial governments makes them behave in less bad ways, if not necessarily in good ways. And it lifts the spirits of those being repressed by said governments.

Be prepared for war, and engage in careful and thorough diplomacy. That policy worked against the USSR.

For whom? Did it work for the Poles? How about the East Germans? The Hungarians? How about the Chinese under Mao?

The thought experiment need not include capturing Moscow, or nuking it. What if we were able to push the Red Army out of Eastern Europe? It would have given those countries the chance to develop free societies, as well as greatly diminishing the perception of the Soviet Union as a great world power.

Aside from ignoring the vast human costs of the Soviet revolution, you are also completely missing Goldberg's point. During the Cold War, many people thought that detente was, in fact, the best possible outcome - they weren't looking to win, like Reagan was. You are taking for granted the fact that we won, but the whole point is that a lot of people thought that that wasn't an option. You're also acting as if it was a foregone conclusion that nuclear war never broke out, when it very easily could have, no matter how much diplomacy was deployed.

Whereas the "Boundless Unilateral Antagonism" policy hasn't managed to push Fidel from power.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but to the extent we've been antagonistic towards Castro, it has hardly been boundless or unilateral. Besides, what are you implying, that treating Castro as a legitimate ruler would have somehow hastened his removal somehow?

I think one point Mike S. misses there at the end is that we did not actually invade or overthrow the U.S.S.R. "It", meaning "careful and thorough diplomacy" worked for the Poles and the rest in that the U.S.S.R. was allowed to collapse because we shepherded its downfall in a way that they could do it with dignity and without (they thought) too much national humiliation.

Of course diplomacy does not mean all nice words and concessions - harsh words and serious threats with clear consequences are part of diplomacy. So, what Reagan did with his strong, forceful rhetoric in pointing out the moral deficiencies of the U.S.S.R. was diplomacy, not "tak[ing] care of the Soviets" as Goldberg suggests, whatever that means in the specific.

The test for considering ideal outcomes is "what does doing that tell us?" In Jonah's case, it's pretty clear that his imaginative experiments say little more than "communism bad." Very true, but rather uninteresting.

"When we were more aggressive, militarily or rhetorically, the Vietnamese treated the POWs better. When we were softer, militarily or rhetorically, they treated them worse. Sometimes putting pressure on adversarial governments makes them behave in less bad ways, if not necessarily in good ways. And it lifts the spirits of those being repressed by said governments."

Actually, the POWs stopped being tortured the day that Ho Chi Minh died - see the documentary film RETURN WITH HONOR. Conditions improved progressively after that.

What if we were able to push the Red Army out of Eastern Europe?

What if the US had pushed for a just settlement of WWI?

The Mongols pulled off a successful invasion of Russia. It was a while ago, though.

Re: Every invasion of Russia?

Well, The Mongol hordes managed to invade and conquer Russia.

Re: How about the East Germans? The Hungarians?

Yep, worked rather well, as those countries today are free and democratic with nary a drop of blood being shed.

Re: How about the Chinese under Mao?

Who has long since shuffled off this mortal coil. In the end even the most ghastly of tyrants meets his demise.

Re: Aside from ignoring the vast human costs of the Soviet revolution

The vast bulk of those costs (and yes they were enormous) occured befoere the Cold War, during the Revolution itself, and in the days of Lenin's and Stalin's consolidation of power. In that period the US was not in any position to do much. And indeed, I am not sure I see that the US can or should be doing be much about such situations anyway, except where it is in our national interest to do so. For sure the idea that we should slaughter hundreds of thousands of people to "free" them strikes me as a moral irony that would be funny in comedy noir, but in the real world it fairly stinks.

"Perhaps you haven't noticed, but to the extent we've been antagonistic towards Castro, it has hardly been boundless or unilateral. Besides, what are you implying, that treating Castro as a legitimate ruler would have somehow hastened his removal somehow?"

Actually this is pretty close to the scholarly consensus on this issue. It was pretty clear that prior to, during, and immediately after (up intil about 1961) Castro was not a Communists. He deeply resented the PSP, the Communist party of Cuba. He wanted to maintain a safe distance from the overtly and dogmatically communist Che Guevara. The constant and omnipresent threat of invasion from the US gave Castro incentive to search for protection elsewhere, and thus, the USSR.

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