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The Zeal of a Convert

28 Oct 2007 11:36 am

Ryan Lizza's piece on Mitt Romney is just as good as everyone says, but I found this passage somewhat puzzling:

In private, a Romney aide frankly conceded that, aside from accusations of “flip-flopping,” his greatest political liability is his religion, which is unfamiliar to most Americans. Jan Shipps, a leading non-Mormon scholar of Mormonism, said that it was useful to consider the difference between Romney and Harry Reid, the Senate Majority Leader, who holds the highest government post of any Mormon in American history. “Reid is a Church member,” Shipps said. “But he is a convert. I’m sure he’s devoted, I’m sure he’s a tithe-paying member and all of that”—devout Mormons contribute ten per cent of their earnings to the Church—“but he was not born into the Church. He didn’t get Mormonism with his mother’s milk, as it were. But Romney is a sixth-generation Mormon”—what scholars call a DNA Mormon. “His ancestors were some of the very first converts.”

I suppose I see what Shipps is getting at - Romney's family history emphasizes Mormonism's various strangenesses in a way that Harry Reid's non-Mormon family history doesn't. But if you're trying to decide whether you should vote for a politician with peculiar-seeming religious beliefs, wouldn't you be much, much less likely to vote for them if they were a convert, like Reid, than if they'd been born into the faith? After all, most people stay in the religion they're born into, regardless of its theology or history; conversion, by contrast, suggests a much more profound assessment, and acceptance, of your religion's beliefs and practices. So one can look askance at Mormon teaching and still say, well, of course Mitt Romney's going to stay in the Church - he's just sticking with the faith of his father and mothers (and mothers, and mothers ...). But Reid deliberately chose Mormonism (and apparently persuaded his wife to convert from Judaism as well), which suggests a different and more radical acceptance of its doctrines than you'd expect from a member of the Romney family.

(And I don't mean to single out Mormonism here: If you think that anyone who believes in Roman Catholicism should have their head examined, then a convert-politician - like, say, Bobby Jindal - ought to be much weirder and more worrisome than a cradle Catholic office-seeker.)

Comments (77)

Not so sure about this:

If you think that anyone who believes in Roman Catholicism should have their head examined, then a convert-politician - like, say, Bobby Jindal - ought to be much weirder and more worrisome than a cradle Catholic office-seeker.

Your's is one fair interpretation, however, another might be that people who grow up in strictly religious homes which they stay in are far more doctrinaire and far less open-minded than folks who go out and find a religion they're comfortable with and convert.

No?

I have been thinking this for a very long time. I have seen some mean and bigoted people questioning how such a smart man could be "fooled" by such a strange religion, but they fail to realize that he did not convert to Mormonism as a smart man, but was brought into it as an innocent baby and grew up in a family espousing its virtues. It's all he has ever known. From all accounts, the Romney family has been tremendously succcessful, loving, happy and decent. There has been nothing in their family history that would suggest that there is any reason for him to question his family tradition or his family's longstanding faith. Mormonism has been good to the Romney family. Like they say, if it's not broken, why fix it.

I see many people who were not born into strong and successful families with longstanding religious traditions waffling and wondering what to believe or which religion to embrace. To say, that their situation is better than the Romney family's strong and long-held beliefs would be nonsensical.

I believe Jindal converted as a young man, which is a bit more excusable than some alternatives. If you're a young person desperately trying to find some answers in faith and you sign up for Catholicism, that's one thing. However, converting in middle age (a la Sam Brownback) is an entirely different story, and in many respects stranger. Then again, Brownback is a peculiar fellow.

I do agree with your thesis. The expression is, after all, "a convert's zeal." Sure, I'm still with the religion I was raised in, but I did have a pretty intense agnostic/doubting period, and my conception of my faith and my worldview are miles apart from where I started. I personally feel more comfortable with religions that sorta accept a lot of different interpretations of what the faith is about (like Judaism and protestant Christianity to some degree) than the other ones, like Catholicism in particular.

Isn't this all just a sham, a make-believe effort to explaing the "puzzlement" of Romney's mormonism being a problem with voters while Reid's is not?

It seems obvious to me that the real distinction here is not conversion vs "born into" mormonism, it's the initial at the end of each name -- the R or the D.

The media and much of the american public has bought the notion that Republicans are a bunch of unreconstructed theocrats, but that Democrats are religion lite, hence mormonism is scary if one is a Republican, but it is just a quaint, vestigial ceremonial affectation for Democrats.

I think what I disdain most about the modern MSM is their unwillingness to examine the elephant in the living room (and I'm not talking about the GOP sysmbol).

Having been raised Catholic, I have certainly noticed that most of my relatives and peers weren't especially religious, and most, even while remaining members of the Church, maintained a healthy skepticism about many Church teachings. Converts I have known were almost always far more zealous and more attached to some of the truly bizarre and stupid aspects of Catholicism (the birth control crap, for example).

Mormonism's weird fantasy about Jesus powwowing with Amerinds is extremely odd, but no more so than the Virgin Mary fetish. I'm not sure why any otherwise-rational humans fall for any of this nonsense, and I've never seen an explanation of it that makes any sense.

Did you know that the majority of Mormons alive today were not born Mormon? It is essentially a church of converts. Why do you think so many people, many of them intelligent and hard-working, are going for such a "strange" religion, as you call it? Could it be that you are not as knowledgable of Mormon beliefs and culture as you think you are?

i think ships was implying that it would be harder for romney to communicate about his religion since it wasn't as conscious and reflexive a choice as for someone like reid, who had to convert.

Did you know that the majority of Mormons alive today were not born Mormon?

i doubt this is true of the united states. but i'd like to see data.

This topic has been raised here before.

Things are only going to get more difficult for Romney.

The possibility of a Mormon president is going to require Mormons to give a much more candid account of their beliefs about God, history, etc. Today those beliefs are regarded by the general public (if thought about at all) as vaguely Christian, with a gloss of Mormon history and culture.

But Mormon teachings are a radical departure from Christian teachings, particularly about the plurality of gods and their corporeal nature. Those beliefs could be true or false. My only point is that the more people actually learn about Mormonism the greater the potential disruption to Romney's candidacy. Maybe this is a great opportunity for Mormon's to explain their beliefs.

i doubt this is true of the united states. but i'd like to see data.

I think it depends on where you live. In the Eastern States, I'd bet that a large majority of members of the LDS Church are converts. In the West, it's probably more equal.

But Mormon teachings are a radical departure from Christian teachings, particularly about the plurality of gods and their corporeal nature.

How Mormons define "God" is very different than much of Christianity, but the fundamental concepts behind Jesus Christ and why He is important are almost identical. I agree that Americans need to learn more about the Latter-day Saints, but it isn't something that you can learn in a newspaper article. People have to be motivated to really understand what it means to be a Mormon, and most Americans simply aren't that interested.

This article in The Christian Century was one of the best examples I've seen of a reporter who did enough research to understand what it means to be a Mormon: http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=3594.

Reid is a Democrat, and Romney is a Republican. It is as simple as that. First of all Mormon is a nickname. The real name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint. Second, every strong member of the LDS Church is essentially a convert to the church. Each individual person is strongly encouraged to find out for themself whether or not the church is true. Romney and Reid both are, in my eyes, more or less, converts to the church. They are just on different sides of the aisle when it comes to political philosophies, and that is perfectly OK in the eyes of the Church.

The Church is growing at an extremely fast rate. I couldn't find statistics on convert membership, though they do announce it by year (if anyone does want to delve into the statistics portion of the Churches website, a person joins the church by baptism, a person who has grown up in the church still joins the church by baptism at 8 yrs old but are referred to as "child of Record Baptisms").

Anyway, with the church growing by 50% in the past 15 years or so, a significant portion have to be converts.

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=0272d93c8688f010VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=3e0511154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD

I just want to point out that just because you have grown up with your faith does not mean that you blindly accept it or do not have as strong a conviction as a convert !

I am a 17 year old latter day saint (mormon) in Scotland and the only young member in my whole town of about 20,000.
The pressure amoung young people to go out and get drunk regularly is huge here in Scotland. I am the only one in my group of friends who doesnt drink and I often get people harrassing me for my choice.

What I am trying to say is that I live many standards and morals that absolutely no one else lives around me.
The only reason that I do this is because I have a tremendous conviction of my faith and i know with all my heart that It is true.
Yes I have grown up in the church, but that doesnt mean that I havent studied, pondered and prayed about the church I am attending.
How else do you think that through all the pressures and influences that I face from all around, I manage to stand strong and true to my beliefs and have integrity which is something that is becoming less and less valued in todays world, especially amoung young people.
( I am not trying to boast, I'm just saying that it is possible for members who have grown up in the church to have very strong personal convictions of their faith)

Another point I wanted to make, the fact that Mitt has given up two years of his life to serve as a missionaty for the church already shows that he has a strong conviction of his faith. You dont just get a conviction like that by taking your beliefs for granted.

I think it depends on where you live. In the Eastern States, I'd bet that a large majority of members of the LDS Church are converts. In the West, it's probably more equal.

sure, but the vast majority of mormons live in the west. i grew up in a 20-30% mormon area. most were born mormon, they weren't converts. growth rates are also, of course, due in part to high birth rates.

here are mormon growth rates based on a national survey between 1990-2001
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/images/aris13.jpg

also, mormon switching in and out in the USA seems equilibrated
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/images/image019.gif

The focus one is making to distract the true virtue of what Mitt represents, is simply trying to persuade one away from the attributes that make the person the kind of candidate you should be seeking. To lead a nation which is troubled and has within its own backyards a need for good men to assist a great nation to become better, this is what should be the focus, his resume speaks for itself. Why would not one use simple logic and see for themselves the positive strength that this man has in the good to persevere and bring a nation to a continued freedom that it enjoys. It doesn't take a genius to understand Mitt has the qualities, conviction and belief of its people and wants to invite everyone to have the great bounties this nation has to offer. Bring the truth out, I would suggest that unfortunate in politics as it is, it is persuading rhetoric rather than honesty. Power is ultimate, so let not ones faith which in all respects has sustained the man as who he is, but it has done so for many others who have found this religion in their lives as it has for many who went away and returned, because it was a large void in their life when it was not part of their daily living. Let the true colors of the leaders be part of your voting, make it count, then have the faith to support and sustain this leader, to bring back a nation that rests in turmoil. Watch the stability of this country grow and have a positive influence to other countries.

There's nothing in Mormonism, or Roman Catholicism for that matter, that should make anyone think twice about voting for a candidate. And to imply that Romney is less sincere about his beliefs than Harry Reid is appalling. I'm sure Romney is just as devoted to his Church as Reid is (Romney has served as a bishop and stake president in the Church, which is roughly equivalent to a priest and bishop in the Catholic Church - the latter a major position that put him as the spiritual leader of several congregations).

This whole post is silly. It shouldn't matter if either is more sincere than the other -- though there is nothing to imply either of them is or isn't -- since there's nothing politically dangerous about Mormonism. Mormons have served the United States in the military, Senate, House, as governors, and presidential cabinate members for decades. There has never been a religious conflict with their positions.

since there's nothing politically dangerous about Mormonism

just because one observes that the population is hostile toward X does not mean that one shares said hostility. such a conflation is childish.

Mormonism isn't much weirder than any of the other major religions of the world. Mormons just had the misfortune of having their religion being founded and developed in an age in which newspapers were common. A long vintage and a general lack of first-hand journalistic accounts of the events surrounding the founding of a religion tend to help its public image.

In addition to the point about family history, it's worth noting that Romney went on his mission and serves as a deacon in the church while the converted Reid IIRC did not and does not. That would seem to provide further inconclusive evidence that tends to undercut Reid's supposed zealotry.

Sorry, my post above was sloppy. I should have said that there's substantial but inconclusive evidence that Romney is fairly committed to the Mormon faith and that, aside from his conversion, I'm not aware of similar evidence for Reid.

It seems to me that Mormonism is indeed a lot more illogical than mainstream Christianity. It suffers from logical contradictions that Christianity does not- for example, how can someone be retroactively baptized? Why would God say that polygamy was OK for Brigham Young but then not OK anymore after Utah became a state? How do the Gods of multiple universes interact? Most importantly, how is it even logically possible for man to become God? This last bit, about man becoming God, is not just highly offensive to me, it's also logically incoherent- if God and man are not inherently of unfathomably different kind, then the term 'God' has no meaning.

as well of course there is this business about JC coming to the New World, and about great Hebrew empires battling over control of North America, which is flatly contradicted by historical evidence.

There is also some reason to believe that Joseph Smith faked his supposed 'revelations', most notably making up the whole polygamy business to justify his prodigious lusts. Not to mention that Mormonism served until the 1970s as America's last religious bastion of racism, and continues until today as a bastion of patriarchy.

If anyone can't see intuitively how the veneration of the Virgin Mother of God is something sublime, while the idea that man can become God is something sordid and grotesque, then our intuitions are so far apart it is almost not worth bothering to argue.

If anyone can't see intuitively how the veneration of the Virgin Mother of God is something sublime, while the idea that man can become God is something sordid and grotesque, then our intuitions are so far apart it is almost not worth bothering to argue.

I'm compelled to offer the immortal words of Frankie Four Fingers from Snatch, which are better if you read them with his faux-hasidic accent:

. . . So the biblical scholars mis-translated the Hebrew word for "young woman" into the Greek word for "virgin," which was a pretty easy mistake to make, since there is only a subtle difference in the spelling. But back then it was the "virgin" that caught people's attention. It's not every day a virgin conceives and bears a son. So you keep that for a couple of hundred years, and the nexy thing you know, you have the Roman Catholic church.

I was raised in a staunch Latter-Day Saint home, by a mother who is an LDS convert and politically firmly Democrat. Despite her political leanings, all her children are now actively Republicans. Our basic values are the same, but we differ on the role of government.

I'm voting for Mitt Romney because he most closely reflects my fiscal and social conservative views. As a Latter-Day Saint who, like Mitt, grew up in the mid-western US, rather than in UTAH-- this is more important than how many generations his family has been active in church membership. There are far fewer LDS throughout the rest of the country. All our friends are Catholics, Lutherans, and Baptists. We think for ourselves and either live our religion or we don't.

Oddly enough, for the first time in decades, Mom donated to a Republican- Mitt Romney.

My Catholic mother insisted that any adult who converted to Catholicism was a having or recently had a mental breakdown - she may be correct

Mormonism is,er, bizarre (I am not known on these boards for making temperate remarks) Mitt seems normal enough, but - politics aside - I just would have lingering doubts about someone who was a staunch mormon. (Call it small-mindedness, I don't care)

As Hector points out above, the whole mormon story and credo just doesn't hang together well. It is easy enough to shoot holes in most religions (no punning here) but have you read any part of the Book of Mormon? Many beeter comics books have been written.

better commic books that is

razib,


I think you may find it interesting to note that, while relatively high, LDS birth rates, the increase of children of record, is not, relative to much of LDS history, very high. The average Caucasian LDS woman has only one more child per lifetime than the average Caucasian non-LDS woman in the US. And if you go down to Mexico the average LDS family size is actually SMALLER than the average family size for Mexicans in general. Natural growth in the Church is probably at, and has been for a while, a relatively low level. In fact considering Church growth in the last few decades the natural increase, the "children of record" baptized into the faith has been, in my opinion abysmal. It's yet to be seen if the first emphasis in something like a decade and a half (a talk given at the semi-annual General Conference, a world wide gathering of Mormons for instruction from the Church's leadership) will have any effect in increasing the abysmally low 'children of record' increase in the LDS/Mormon Church.

And also, with regard to your mention of a lack of converts in the area you are familiar with (I believe you said that it was 20-30 percent Mormon). It may be interesting for you to know that the Utah missions have quite often had some of the highest conversion rates. While some of that's born out of the reactivation of families born in familial settings there are many instances I'm aware of in which visitors and temporary residents have joined the faith and kept it after they return to their home, or when they move on to a new residence. So convert growth in the LDS faith is not quite fitting into the box you seem to be trying to place it.

Comments to Ed Goldthrup above: right on!

Gov Romney is probably the best candidate out there....honest to a tee, superb values and no departures from family commitment. This example is huge and tells alot about the man.

Been in the military 30 years and I can say, Gov R your example stands above all others. Lots of candidates are professional or preachers, I know the way you think you are for real....the democrats are scared the most, because of the contrast you bring to what Hillary and you would bring for governing. I realize this now...I get it...and many more are starting to get it. Keep teaching us by example and stand up to the professional politicians....this is someone who gets it. Thanks Ed Goldthrup for your thoughts...very well put.

Example is truth!
Ralph

Yes, I have read the Book of Mormon. And I came up with a different view than yours. It is a wonderful book to anybody who is honestly seeking spiritual guidance. I love it and will never exchange the experience to the world. And yes, I am converted from another Christian religion.

lomi's reply is for Jozef

Re: So you keep that for a couple of hundred years, and the nexy thing you know, you have the Roman Catholic church.

Just to clarify, the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary isn't strictly a Roman Catholic thing. The Mother of God is also, as far as I know, venerated by the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental churches, and many Anglicans.

And for anyone who believes in the Virgin Birth, presumably it doesn't matter if the term for 'young woman' was mis-translated as 'parthena' or whatever.
When they chose that term to translate 'young woman', whether it was gramatically correct or not, they presumably did so because they had been inwardly prompted to do so by God, who intended to make it clear to the world that there would be a virgin birth.

Ironic, isn't it, that the same people who are always criticizing Christianity on the (sadly smewhat justified) basis that it has been an anti-feminist religion and suppressed female spirituality, are so often the same ones who get really bothered and uncomfortable by the supreme example of Christian female spirituality, the devotion to the Mother of God. It would seem that something other than gender equality is their real hidden agenda here.

The issue about Mormon beliefs is not whether or not they are bizarre in some objective sense, but whether or not they are heterodox from the mainstream faith of the country.

The multiplicity of gods and the apotheosis doctrine (man becoming God) are extremely divergent from mainstream monotheistic Christianity in a way that Judaism and Islam (and in many ways, atheism and agnosticism) are not. This is where Mormon beliefs could prove problematic in an election.

Why aren't Reid's beliefs given the same scrutiny as Romney's? Reid is not running for President.

Sorry, my post above was sloppy. I should have said that there's substantial but inconclusive evidence that Romney is fairly committed to the Mormon faith and that, aside from his conversion, I'm not aware of similar evidence for Reid.

Check out the speech that Reid gave last month at BYU:

Harry Reid Speech

Joseph Antley is correct: Romney's service as "Bishop" and "Stake President" in the Mormon church shows a level of commitment, and (one would assume) belief that goes far beyond just going along with family tradition. These positions require a lot of dedication and sacrifice, and the men (always men) who fill them are overwhelmingly whole hearted true-believers.

The issue about Mormon beliefs is not whether or not they are bizarre in some objective sense, but whether or not they are heterodox from the mainstream faith of the country.

Why on earth would this be an issue when discussing who should be President of the United States? Was or wasn't our country founded on the basis of religious freedom? Is or isn't Mormonism the result of this freedom?

In my view, disqualifying someone from any political office in this country is un-American. It goes against everything our country is based upon. Our ancestors left Europe to get away from these types of attitudes.

The multiplicity of gods and the apotheosis doctrine (man becoming God) are extremely divergent from mainstream monotheistic Christianity in a way that Judaism and Islam (and in many ways, atheism and agnosticism) are not. This is where Mormon beliefs could prove problematic in an election.

It is true that Mormons believe that man has the potential to become like their creator and have a much more optimistic view of humanity and its purpose and potential than much of Christianity. What I don't understand is why this would "prove problematic" in an election.

Depending on how bad the Republicans beat up Mitt Romney over his religion, I'd be surprised if Mormon support for Republican candidates remains as strong in the future as it has in the past. Mormons have voted for Democrats in the past. I think they will do it again in the future. Afterall, the Republican Party was originally formed in part because of its opposition to the LDS Church. We were one of their "twin relics of barbarism" (along with slavery).

This should read: "In my view, disqualifying someone from any political office in this country because of their religion is un-American."

I am not sure this has been brought up, but I think one important difference is Reid is not running for President and the people do not select who will be Senate Majority Leader. If Reid ran for President many things might be brought up including Mormonism.

Although I agree the other issue is that the Democratic Party is considered the less religious party. In addition to that Mormonism is seen as a more "conservative" religion so being Mormon and Republican "doubles it up." It's similar to being a Quaker and a Democrat. People might assume a Quaker Democrat would be too weak on foreign policy and military or maybe too liberal on social issues. Both of our Quaker Presidents were GOP. (Although I think this is more because Quakers were traditionally pro-business, I'd still say a Quaker Democrat would not fair well)

The average Caucasian LDS woman has only one more child per lifetime than the average Caucasian non-LDS woman in the US.

that's a context free statement. if the average children per life of an average white woman in the USA is 1.8 and a white mormon is 2.8, that's a big difference! (i know that mormon fertility isn't what some would think, but 1.8 is about right for white women i think)

.So convert growth in the LDS faith is not quite fitting into the box you seem to be trying to place it.

the box that i'm trying to place it is that most american mormons were born into the faith, not converted. by most, i'm asserting more than 50%. i don't see anyone bringing up data to contradict me, and i'm the only one who has provided to links to statistics. like i said

1) mormon growth in the USA from 1990 to 2001 wasn't that impressive compared to charismatics and what not

2) defection balanced out conversion during this period

finally, raw conversion numbers are totally a bogus issue. everyone knows that for most religions there are many more converts than people who actually stick with it over the long haul and become active members of churches. there are a group of people who spend their life hopping from church to church and inflate the numbers for many denominations, from hare krishnas to mormons.

The church announces membership statistics each April in the morning session of General Conference. If you want to look them up, you can do so here: General Conference Archives. Look under "Statistical Report."

In 2006, there was an increase in "children of record" of about 96,000 and about 270,000 convert baptisms. So, appoximately 1/4 of the new members of the church each year come from births. I'd guess that over time about 30% of those who convert to the church stay active in it (I don't know how many are not active, but still consider themselves to be LDS), which means that the numbers of children born into the church and those who convert to the church is about equal.

finally, raw conversion numbers are totally a bogus issue. everyone knows that for most religions there are many more converts than people who actually stick with it over the long haul and become active members of churches

You're right. For the LDS Church, a much better number to look at is the number of chuch buildings being built and the number of new stakes being organized since this activity requires an active membership.

The LDS church is currently completeing approx. one new church building each weekday.

In 2006 there were 2,745 stakes and 27,475 wards and branches of the church. Ten years earlier in 1996, there were 2,296 stakes in the church and 23,528 wards and branches. Local leadership for stakes and wards is 100% volunteers, which means a new ward or stake cannot be organized unless there is enough membership of the church in an area to support the church and its organization.

What is 'mainstream Christianity' suppose to mean? Are you talking about Catholics or Protestants? If it’s Protestants, do you mean Lutherans, Methodists or Baptists? If it’s Baptists, do you mean Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Primitive Baptists or maybe the Free Will Baptists?

Mormonism is bizarre and contradictory? Mormonism doesn't teach God is great spirit-essence, large enough to fill the universe, yet small enough to dwell in every man's heart. Nor does it teach God is three parts which are co-eternal, of the same substance, and yet inexplicably different.

The church announces membership statistics each April in the morning session of General Conference. If you want to look them up, you can do so here: General Conference Archives. Look under "Statistical Report."

yeah, but to be honest, i don't trust religious denominations self-reporting of their numbers much. there is a tendency to inflate. the survey i liked to above, the american religious identification survey, goes out and asks a representative sample of americans their religious affiliation. if you believe muslim american community activists there are 6-8 million muslims. actually, it looks like more like 1.5-3 million. additionally, some groups, like catholics, have very loose standards for who is/was a member, while other groups have very strict standards (many protestant groups). so you need to normalize to the way the church records such things (the catholic vs. protestant difference isn't because catholics are sneakier, some protestants just emphasize persistent attendance and will purge from the rolls who don't attend, while catholics will generally not).

I'd guess that over time about 30% of those who convert to the church stay active in it (I don't know how many are not active, but still consider themselves to be LDS), which means that the numbers of children born into the church and those who convert to the church is about equal.

i don't know if your guess is correct or not (i spent trying for 5 minutes to figure out the numbers, but i'm not going to wade through the anti-mormon sites to find real numbers at this points, i am skeptical of their viewpoint for obvious reasons). but i do know that the american religious identification survey reported that as many people left mormonism between 1990 and 2001 as joined it.

Hector writes: "Ironic, isn't it, that the same people who are always criticizing Christianity on the (sadly smewhat justified) basis that it has been an anti-feminist religion and suppressed female spirituality, are so often the same ones who get really bothered and uncomfortable by the supreme example of Christian female spirituality, the devotion to the Mother of God. It would seem that something other than gender equality is their real hidden agenda here."

Hectr, Hector, Hector. Why is it that Mary can only be considered "the supreme example of Christian dfemale spirituality" if she never sat on a penis? This is senseless stuff. According to the buybull itself the woman had other children - Jeezus had siblings. This is not something non-fetishist Christians have had difficulty forgiving.

Despite what you may believe, having sex does not make a woman (or anyone else) unclean. Unless, of course, they have sex while voting Republican.

Hector,

It seems to me that Mormonism is indeed a lot more illogical than mainstream Christianity. It suffers from logical contradictions that Christianity does not
How can Jesus be both fully man and fully god?

How can Jesus be the only bridge between man and God when God defines what is sin in the first place?

What are the answers to all the questions on all the webpages you see when you Google for the words "biblical" and "contradiction"?

- for example, how can someone be retroactively baptized?
Are you limiting God? Is God not omnipotent?

Why would God say that polygamy was OK for Brigham Young but then not OK anymore after Utah became a state?
Why would God start to have a new relationship with the whole of humanity between the Old and New Testaments just because Jesus came around?

How do the Gods of multiple universes interact?
Are you again limiting God? How do you know there are no connections between "multiple universes"? How would, say, different angels interact?
Most importantly, how is it even logically possible for man to become God?

Genesis 3:22: `And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."'

This last bit, about man becoming God, is not just highly offensive to me, it's also logically incoherent
In one single post, you prove yourself: wrong, incapable of understanding logic and truly ignorant of your own Bible. You're truly a shameful example of a Christian, aren't you Hector?



if God and man are not inherently of unfathomably different kind, then the term 'God' has no meaning.

And finally, he says ONE thing right.

as well of course there is this business about JC coming to the New World, and about great Hebrew empires battling over control of North America, which is flatly contradicted by historical evidence.



If anyone can't see intuitively how the veneration of the Virgin Mother of God is something sublime,

... "If anyone can't see intuitively how the veneration of the Virgin Mother of God is something equally logical as the Mormon beliefs"...

There. Fixed it for you.



while the idea that man can become God is something sordid and grotesque, then our intuitions are so far apart it is almost not worth bothering to argue.

Is God not meant to be the ultimate father figure? Isn't every parent who loves their children wanting to see their children grow up, mature, become the absolute best they can be? Or are you limiting and belittling both your fellow man and the God you claim to love?

Shame upon shame upon you, Dauphin-Gloire. Shame.

Just to clarify, the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary isn't strictly a Roman Catholic thing. The Mother of God is also, as far as I know, venerated by the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental churches, and many Anglicans.

The point there, I think, is that all those other denominations came later, not that they believe differently in this respect.

In a larger sense, what I was trying to illustrate with the quotation is this:

The cause for greater skepticism of Mormonism is based in evidence, not the perceived weakness of the underlying theology--persuasive though that may be to people of other faiths.

If you want to be skeptical about the origins of a religion, it's generally not very difficult to find a persuasive argument. This is true of Mormonism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism . . . the works. The difference for skeptics of Mormonism--or indeed Scientology--is the incredible wealth of reliable historical evidence that contradicts the founder's claims and undermines his credibility.

Very true! Converts to faiths are known to be more zealous. The most dedicated Catholics ive ever met are those who used to be Protestants or belonged to a non christian faith and converted. They often faced ridicule for their decision and still kept with it. I think the more important question is not how these men became mormans but why Romney's mormanism is an issue but Harry Reid's is not.

Very true! Converts to faiths are known to be more zealous. The most dedicated Catholics ive ever met are those who used to be Protestants or belonged to a non christian faith and converted. They often faced ridicule for their decision and still kept with it. I think the more important question is not how these men became mormans but why Romney's mormanism is an issue but Harry Reid's is not.

Re: Hectr, Hector, Hector. Why is it that Mary can only be considered "the supreme example of Christian dfemale spirituality" if she never sat on a penis? This is senseless stuff. According to the buybull itself the woman had other children - Jeezus had siblings. This is not something non-fetishist Christians have had difficulty forgiving.

Moe,

The 'siblings' of Jesus were most likely cousins, or half-siblings. Joseph was presumably much older than the Virgin Mary and had had children by a previous marriage.

St. Mary isn't the only eample of female spirituality, there are a great many Christian saints....Felicity and Perpetua, St. Theresa of Avila, St. Joan of Arc, Juliana of Norwich, Hildegarde of Bingen, as well as many in our century. She is the supreme one because no one else had the honor of giving birth to God Incarnate.

There is reason to believe that Jesus wasn't the biological son of Joseph. Even the anti-Christian polemicists for a thousand years agreed that Joseph was not the father of Jesus. The mainstream churches as well as the heretical Christians, the Gnostics, the Zoroastrians, the Muslims, the Jews and the pagan Romans all agreed that either Jesus was a virgin birth, or he was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier. So it seems to me that those are our only two options. There must have been some conclusive evidence at the time, lost in the intervening centuries, that Joseph was not the father of Jesus. And between those two choices, a virgin birth or an illegitimate Roman, it seems obvious to me which one does more honor to the Son of God.

And you haven't answered my question about why, if you are so concerned about equality for women within Christendom, you insist on denigrating the greatest female saint of them all.

"I think the more important question is not how these men became mormans but why Romney's mormanism is an issue but Harry Reid's is not."

Because the Republicans are allied with the Christianist right who demand a Christian candidate. The Democrats don't have the same alliance, and don't make such a big deal about religion.

Re: Because the Republicans are allied with the Christianist right who demand a Christian candidate. The Democrats don't have the same alliance, and don't make such a big deal about religion.

I actually think that Thomas R's point has more to do with it. Many Democrats that I've talked to about Romney are somewhat creeped out by the idea of a Mormon president (and by Mormonism in general). In part because they see Mormonism as an ultraconservative religion, and therefore Romney's Mormonism reinforces his Republicanism....quite the opposite with someone like Harry Reid. whose Mormonism moderates his being a Democrat. I like the analogy of the Quaker Democrat.

I wasn't aware though that Quakers were traditionally pro-business? That surprises me a lot, I thought that they were traditionally on the economic left, and concerned about social justice?

Why can't we just judge each candidate based on their track record and resume. Why would Romney, Reid, etc etc, whoever, change their values, political platforms, agendas, etc upon which they base their decisions as a politician once they become elected as President???

Look at what Romney has done (and yes, his business career does matter because we've got problems in this country much like a poorly run business), look what Reid has done. These are good politicians and their faith should not take away at all from their track record. (Perhaps their faith and values are what make them such good honest politicians, working for the good of their constituents). Why would you discount that just because you disagree with some doctrine of their faith??

I'm going to vote for the candidate who I believe will help this country the most. And I'm going to base that on their track record as a polician.

Come on already!!! Get over the Mormon thing.

Hector, I'll take a crack at your challenge. I'm a Protestant, so I have no atheism axe to grind here. We reject Mariolatry because principally it's unBiblical. The words used in the New Testament to describe Jesus siblings are the ordinary Greek words for brother and sister. The Greeks had a specific word for cousin which is never used. And for what it's worth, there is nothing unique about virgin mothers in paganism. The most notable example I can think of offhand is Mithras' mother. The mother of Romulus and Remus was, remember, a consecrated Vestal as well.

As for Mary being a great example of female spirituality, you're just flat wrong Mary is used in the Catholic church as an archtype of female SUBMISSION, which is pretty much the precise opposite of an empowered woman. There is nothing in Mary-lore to indicate that she did or thought or said anything interesting and unique. Also, I have to point out that Catholic countries were vastly slower than Protestant countries -- with the exception of Switzerland -- to grant women economic and political rights. If Catholicism is so bloody great for women, where are the women political leaders in Catholic countires?

Hector replies: "The 'siblings' of Jesus were most likely cousins, or half-siblings. Joseph was presumably much older than the Virgin Mary and had had children by a previous marriage."

You're bending over backwards to do a lot of presuming there, Hector. Meanwhile I just read the text which refers to Jesus having brothers. You should know you're in trouble when you have to make stuff up to support your position.

"There is reason to believe that Jesus wasn't the biological son of Joseph. Even the anti-Christian polemicists for a thousand years agreed that Joseph was not the father of Jesus. The mainstream churches as well as the heretical Christians, the Gnostics, the Zoroastrians, the Muslims, the Jews and the pagan Romans all agreed that either Jesus was a virgin birth, or he was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier. So it seems to me that those are our only two options. There must have been some conclusive evidence at the time, lost in the intervening centuries, that Joseph was not the father of Jesus. And between those two choices, a virgin birth or an illegitimate Roman, it seems obvious to me which one does more honor to the Son of God."

Conclusive evidence? You think there was a DNA test or something?

For all you know Mary had a tumble with Schlomo the camel jockey. Your opinion that Jeezus was the product of a divine turkey baster is what leads you to your conclusions, not any "evidence."

"And you haven't answered my question about why, if you are so concerned about equality for women within Christendom, you insist on denigrating the greatest female saint of them all."

I don't believe in saints. I aso don't think it's "denigrating" a woman to suggest that she had sex or children without the aid of a - gasp! - Holy Ghost. I mean, come on.

I'm not a Catholic either, I'm Anglican, but there are lots of Anglicans who are devoted to the Mother of God as well. And by the way, the correct term is 'Marianism', not 'Mariolatry'. I might as well talk about 'Bibliolatry' if it comes to that.

How can Marianism be unbiblical? The Bible says 'All generations shall call me blessed' which indicates that she is to be set above all the saints. The book of Ezekiel says "He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed." which indicates that St. Mary was a virgin the rest of her life. the Bible definitely not forbid the veneration of St. Mary, even if it may not require it.

Mary is both an example of submission and empowerment, much as all of us are required both to empower each other and ourselves in some regards, and to submit to God and to nature in other regards. Neither submission nor empowerment are purely good in and of themselves in all circumstances. Mary was an important figure in the early Church, and apparently an associate of St. Luke.

I notice that Islam, which in its origins made a point out of denigrating the Virgin Mary, does not exactly have a stellar reputation when it comes to women's rights. To denigrate the Virgin Mary is to denigrate all women.

Switzerland isn't a Protestant country by the way, if I recall correctly it's split about half and half Catholic and Protestant.

Female leaders....Gee, where should I start? With Ireland, the Philippines, Argentina, Chile, Guinea Bissau, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Haiti, Malta....I don't see too many female leaders in US history either. Nicaragua in the 1980s, which I know something about, had lots and lots of women leaders in their government, including the head of the national police.

Any criticisms of Marianism seem to me to be petty, pointless, and ultimately denigrating towards women.

Moe,

No doubt my faith and convictions play a part. However, there is little reason to believe that Joseph was the father of Jesus primarily since no one made that claim for over a thousand years.

No DNA test of course, but maybe Jesus looked substantially different than Joseph, such that he couldn't have been the father. If God wanted it to be clear that His Son was a virgin birth, I'm sure he would have made it clear. I'm sure he did, and whatever evidence there was has subsequently been lost.

Apparently the word used to translate 'brothers' actually means 'kinfolk'.

What harm does it do to you if someone chooses to believe that the Virgin Mary was ever virgin, that she was bodily assumed into heaven, immaculately conceived, is first among the saints, co-redemptrix, etc.

Re: The point there, I think, is that all those other denominations came later, not that they believe differently in this respect.

If I wanted to be chauvinistic I would claim that the Orthodox came before the Roman Catholics (who are a schism from them). A Copt or a Nestorian would do the same. But to be fully ecumenical, let me just say that the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches are all three descended from the common Christianity of late antiquity. None of them is "older" than the other.

Re: The words used in the New Testament to describe Jesus siblings are the ordinary Greek words for brother and sister.

Hardly conclusive. I had a half-brother-- we had different mothers. I also have step-siblings (different biological parents entrirely). I routinely refer to my half-brother as my brother and sometimes also my step siblings as "brother and sisters". I would be surprised if ancient languages did not allow for similar latitude in kinship terms.

Re: The most notable example I can think of offhand is Mithras' mother. The mother of Romulus and Remus was, remember, a consecrated Vestal as well.

Concerning Mithras a great deal of disinformational nonsense is abroad, much it invented deliberately to challenge present-day Christianity. The ancient Mithras was a Persian god (later demoted to the Zoroastrian equivalent of an angel) who was conceived in the usual way (albeit with gods, "usual" is a relative term!). Romulus and Remus's mother had Mars (I think) as their father; their mother was a Vestal who ceased to be a virgin once Mars got hold of her.

sorry, but is this discussion of Mary and siblings of Jesus relevant to the article?

Perhaps it is if you consider that the debate highlights the fact that our country is made up of people with differing theological views and religious freedom is what allows us to coexist and prosper as a nation. So...why not truly embrace that freedom and support it by voting for a President for his qualifications and not for his agreeable religious beliefs.

The LDS Church is accepting of all faiths, look for common ground to build on and work together with other religions often in serving the community. All this hatred toward the LDS Church is not reciprocated back by them. I'd be more worried if a candidate demonstrated in their political career tendencies to be bias toward certain religious groups and unsupportive of others. That would be anti-American...much like this un-American treatment of a potential presidential candidate because of his religion.

I understand some level of concern, same as with Kennedy, but once there is a commitment from Romney to serve in office as a politician and not as a pawn to some outside group then we should all be willing to let it rest.

I also don't really know why it matters whether a convert or a DNA Mormon is more likely to be faithful to his/her Church? Are you saying it is good or bad to be faithful - or why does it matter?

I realize there is a lot of misconceptions about Mormons, especially by those educated mainly by anti-Mormon literature, and I think partially also due to the fact that Mormons haven't really done as good of a job as they could have at engaging in open discussions with people (without feeling a need to convert them). In my experience I think most people really do not want others to try to convert them, as it can easily come across as patronizing.
I recently blogged about my experience growing up Mormon:
http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/?p=75

Although I haven't really done anything like that before, I hoped it might help clear up some misconceptions/stereotypes. At the same time, I recognize that intelligent people can disagree with my faith and that is OK with me.

As a side note, quite unrelated to this article, I am also very interested in how people with very different belief systems can collaborate with each other on common goals in making the world a safer and better place (as opposed to attacking and trying to discredit each other). If anyone has any thoughts on that - I'd love to hear them.

The general evangelical doctrine as regards Mary is that she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus (this was important to show that he was God Incarnate rather than just an ordinary man conceived an ordinaty way).

After this, there is no reason to suppose that she remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

Why on earth would this be an issue when discussing who should be President of the United States? Was or wasn't our country founded on the basis of religious freedom? Is or isn't Mormonism the result of this freedom?
In my view, disqualifying someone from any political office in this country is un-American. It goes against everything our country is based upon. Our ancestors left Europe to get away from these types of attitudes.

If someone's religion is far outside the mainstream, it will likely become an issue for a lot of people, whether it ought to or not.

What is 'mainstream Christianity' suppose to mean? Are you talking about Catholics or Protestants? If it’s Protestants, do you mean Lutherans, Methodists or Baptists? If it’s Baptists, do you mean Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Primitive Baptists or maybe the Free Will Baptists?

All of the above are in the "mainstream." The point here is that all of these denominations in their basic theology have more in common with each other than they do with Mormonism.

Re: After this, there is no reason to suppose that she remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

No theological reason, I agree. But we have early Christian documents dating back to around 100 bc explaining that she did indeed remain a virgin. This isn't something some Pope invented a millenia after the fact.

Re: After this, there is no reason to suppose that she remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

No theological reason, I agree. But we have early Christian documents dating back to around 100 ad explaining that she did indeed remain a virgin. This isn't something some Pope invented a millenia after the fact.

JonF,

Right, it would be better to say that the Catholics, Orthodox and Orientals split from each other. I think the point about half brothers is a good one. I would also question whether pre-modern cultures would draw such a sharp distinction between brothers and cousins; my South Asian family members routinely refer to first cousins as their brothers/sisters and I wouldn't be that surprised in 1st century Palestinians had the same usage.

I would guess that the theological importance of the perpetual virginity of Mary has something to do with preserving the purity of the womb in which Jesus was gestated. Something along the lines of the verse from Ezekiel quoted above.

Just out of curiosity, are you Orthodox by birth or conversion? I'm a convert to Anglicanism.

I think the main point about Mormonism has been aired already-- it isn't any less plausible than any other religion (indeed, the early stages of Christianity are a mess and most of what we now know as Christian doctrine was picked by authorities from among competing scriptures and gospels in an attempt to obtain control over the populace and persecute heretics).

But on this virgin Mary stuff, can I just say one thing-- anyone who claims to have any idea whether any living woman from 2000 years ago was sexually active or not is, to not put too fine a point on it, full of it. It's fine if you want to believe that stuff as a matter of faith, but don't tell us that its unarguably true. Heck, its practically impossible for most parents of teenagers to keep track of the sexual activity of their own offspring-- don't tell us that you know whom people 2,000 years ago were and were not sleeping with.

Hector,

"If anyone can't see intuitively how the veneration of the Virgin Mother of God is something sublime, while the idea that man can become God is something sordid and grotesque, then our intuitions are so far apart it is almost not worth bothering to argue."

I can see what you're saying, and I agree.

Now we have nothing to say to one another.

Glad we cleared that up.

Boy, after reading all the bafflegab of the above entries, it would be great if God would would reveal himself to man again to sort out this imponderable mess.

Isn't is curious, the Mormons teach that Christ did exactly that.

If I were one of these mainstream Christians, I would be very careful about painting the other guy's pot black.

I think that to say that Marianism is unbiblical is stretching it, except to the extent that Protestants may have a general objection to veneration of the Saints. So did Luther, who proclaimed Mary "the highest woman," that "we can never honor her enough," that "veneration of her is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart" and that Christians "should wish that everyone know and respect her." Wesley, Zwingli, and Calvin made similar statements.

I think it's equally a stretch though, to think that there is some correlation between women's rights and Marianism. I'm Catholic by the way. According to church teaching and scripture itself, God chose Mary for the highest honor ever bestowed upon a human person. This cannot be understated. The Church, though, continues to deny the priesthood to women. As someone raised by a single mom, it's easy for me to think of women as leaders and authority figures, spiritual and otherwise. It's difficult for me to understand why the Church chooses not to avail itself of the untapped potential these women have to offer. That's a decision made by those who have the authority to do so, and as a Catholic I submit myself to that authority. But I have trouble seeing the Church as any kind of haven for feminine empowerment so long as they continue to make that choice.

Re: Just out of curiosity, are you Orthodox by birth or conversion?

Conversion. (But beware: political liberal here)

As for Mary's perpetual virginity (as opposed to the doctrine of the virgin birth itself) I suspect the theologizing came later once the doctrine was established. The extra-scriptural details of Mary's life (including her "dormition" as we call it) seem to have become established in popular legend long before the theologians got hold of them.

JonF writes: "But we have early Christian documents dating back to around 100 bc explaining that she did indeed remain a virgin. This isn't something some Pope invented a millenia after the fact."

So what? There were "early Roman documents" suggesting that Caesar's mother was a virgin. It was a common claim in antiquity designed to puff up the credentials of whichever figure of worship you were trying to puff up. No one writing those "early Christian documents" had any more credibility on that issue than if they'd been claiming Mary never farted or picked her nose.

Theists seldom have a standard for evidence that exceeds that of a 4 year old child, it seems.

And by the way, "100 bc"? I realize that's a simple error and you meant AD, but I hope you realize no one at the time was using the AD/BC system of dating. Ah, Jeezus! They don't know when he was born, they don't know when he died, but they're all sure his mom had a lifelong intact hymen!

Religion is the comedy that keeps on giving.

I'm on the political left too, with the exception of abortion and a couple other issues. Do Orthodox believers in America generally tend towards one political faction? Just curious. Are the liturgies in English or in Greek or Slavonic or another language?

hey Moe, how are you so sure that St. Mary had intercourse? Do you have any documentary evidence to support it? Since we can't prove the question either way, why not accept the claim which is more spiritually compelling?

If one of us saw the Virgin Mary in a dream or a vision, then would you accept that as evidence that she was in fact a perpetual virgin? because lots of people do claim to have had visionary experiences of the Mother of God.

why not accept the claim which is more spiritually compelling?

Occam's Razor?

hey Moe, how are you so sure that St. Mary had intercourse? Do you have any documentary evidence to support it? Since we can't prove the question either way, why not accept the claim which is more spiritually compelling?

Well, I, for one, think it is more spiritually compelling that women are able to enjoy their bodies and experience the intense pleasure that accompanies sexual activity between experienced persons who understand how to please each other.

I especially don't see why anyone would find it "spiritually compelling" for a woman to have to endure the pain of childbirth without experiencing those pleasures. By that definition, being impregnated by a rape is spiritually compelling.

In any event, even if we take the claim of Mary's perpetual virginity to be more spiritually compelling, that doesn't mean that anyone 2,000 years later can know anything about who was or wasn't sexually active during that era.

Hector again: "hey Moe, how are you so sure that St. Mary had intercourse? Do you have any documentary evidence to support it? Since we can't prove the question either way, why not accept the claim which is more spiritually compelling?

If one of us saw the Virgin Mary in a dream or a vision, then would you accept that as evidence that she was in fact a perpetual virgin? because lots of people do claim to have had visionary experiences of the Mother of God. "

Yeah, and supposedly many people who took LSD were convinced they could fly. Turns out not to be the case.

I don't see what's so "spiritually compelling" about never getting your rocks off, Hector. It seems to be right up there with "never eating pork" or "not listening to the demon rock'n'roll" among pointless acts of self-denial.

But since the buybull itself says the woman had more than one child, I'd have to say that (if she even existed) she rode the baloney pony at least a few times. I hope it was good for her, too.

By the way, as I understand it, Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary's hymen remained intact even after childbirth, which is quite the trick. But I suppose the magical powers of the Fetus Jesus knew no bounds. Speaking of which, isn't 9 months stuck in a uterus a much more grueling ordeal than 3 hours on a cross? Why doesn't this get more attention?

Re: There were "early Roman documents" suggesting that Caesar's mother was a virgin.

No there weren't. Caesar's position in Roman society was crucially dependent on his father's lineage-- the Caesar gens claimed decsent from the earliest Roman (Roman, not Etruscan) nobility, and ultimately from the gods through the Trojan Aeneas, whose mother was the goddess Venus. His mother Aurelia was celebrated for her beauty and wisdom, but her ancestry was not particularly exalted. of Virgin births (of the Christian sort) are simply unknown in classical mythology and (to be blunt) people who don't know what they are talking about need to quit inventing these fanciful and disinformational tales about ancient myths. The ancients from time to time suggested that someone might have been fathered by a god (Alexander the Great and Plato both had that tale attached to them) but these stories supposed a physical deity having physical intercourse of the normal sort with their mothers. There really is nothing like the mystical conception claimed of Jesus in the mythology of the ancient Mediterranean and Middle East. Of course skeptics are free to doubt it; I'm not advising otherwise and indeed I can think of any number of good scientific reasons for that skepticism. But to dimiss it with manufactured claims that virgin births were common in anient myths is a blatant lie.

Re: Theists seldom have a standard for evidence that exceeds that of a 4 year old child, it seems.

Um, you misread my point. I was not arguing that the documents were evidence prima facie of a virgin birth, only that they were evidence that early Christians held such a belief-- contra the ignorant claim that the virgin birth was invented centuries later.

rE: And by the way, "100 bc"?

I'm not sure what your point is (other than pointing out A typo, which I tried to correct, on "BC" as a way of criticizing me). Of course no one was yet using AD and BC. Am I expected in my posts here to date years in that era by using AUC or Olympiads? Should I someday be posting about the Mayans will you take me to task for not using their calendar instead of ours? Good grief, you are raising nitpicking to an art form here!

Re: Well, I, for one, think it is more spiritually compelling that women are able to enjoy their bodies and experience the intense pleasure that accompanies sexual activity between experienced persons who understand how to please each other.

The ancients (and this included pagans as well, and for matter also includes Buddhists and ascetic Hindus today) considered that anyone who could master the desires of the flesh was worthy of praise and admiration. After all, any cat in heat can have a ton of passing fun making whoopee. Now, I'm not at all a fan of repression and puritanism and prudery, but surely our society with its obseity and STDs and illegitimacy and addiction rates could use a bit more admiration for the virtues of self-control? It's not as if we are in any danger of a mass outbreak of celibacy and ascetism, I would think.

Re: Orthodox believers in America generally tend towards one political faction?

No, the Orthodox are all over the map. Though you will probably find a greater respect for tradition, a very small "c" conservatism, with them than among the average Americans. Those who are converts from conservative Protestant churches will often have brought their rightwing politics with them (example: Frankie Schaeffer, who can make James Dobson sound like a libertine). Those like me who came from a social justice Catholic outlook will also hold those beliefs (and historically the Orthodox churches in the old countries tended to have a strong communitarian viewpoint on social welfare and the proper role of government in providing for it, not unlike the Roman Catholic tradition on this). Of course the Orthodox Church is strongly pro-Life. But on foreign policy the old-line hawkishness that existed on the Cold War (understandable in that conflict given who many of the victims of Communism were) has yielded to pacifism in the current environment. I have heard two different metropolitans (the Bulgarian metroplitcan in the US and Archbishop Philip of the Antiochian archdiocese here) denounce the Iraq War from the pulpit. Philip's blunt condemnation of the war was rather shocking as I have never heard such a straight forward tirade on a political topic during a sermon-- words are usually well-minced in Orthodox pulpits when there is fear of offending the Faithful.

JonF resorts to the age-old Christian practice of calling me a liar while failing to do any research of is own. Here's a link detailing some of the "virgin births" claimed in antiquity. I could provide many more.

I raise your "liar," JonF, and call you a liar or a fool. The claims about Jesus's mom's chaste status are not unique or rare. Nor is your deep need to see something special in the myths you think are true.

Of course, the link:

http://englishatheist.org/indexd.shtml

I'm sure some Christians will think it's unfair that I didn't provide a link to a Vatican or BJU site.

How did this turn into a discussion of whether the virgin birth happened or not?

Anyway, someone mentioned that Reid did not serve as a "deacon" and "missionary" while Romney did as evidence of the possible greater commitment Romney has to the religion than Reid.

The jobs of "deacon" and missionary in the LDS faith are usually given to young men, ages 13 and 19 respectively. If Reid converted as an adult, he would have missed the age window for really serving in either capacity. The fact that he held neither title, really says nothing in particular about his religious level of commitment.

Moe,

No doubt myths of virgin births, in some form or another, were common in the pre-Christian era. I believe that God or His agents implanted such myths in the collective minds of pre-Christian peoples in order that they might be prepared for the day when such myth actually became fact. Perhaps one or two of those virgin births were real....if God can carry out a miraculous virgin birth once, then He could do it again. I would add though that as far as I know, quite a few of these 'divine births' were not wholly analogous to the virgin birth of Jesus. For example, in Hindu mythology there is a princess who gives birth to the child of the Sun god and whose virginity is miraculously restored afterwards, but as far as I know the conception is supposed to have happened in the normal way.

Re: Well, I, for one, think it is more spiritually compelling that women are able to enjoy their bodies and experience the intense pleasure that accompanies sexual activity between experienced persons who understand how to please each other.

It's amusing how social liberals so often are reduced to talking about sexuality in such clinical terms that it seems to strip the act out of any interest whatsoever. The perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary is admirable and spiritually compelling precisely because she gave up such a valuable and pleasurable part of life. She gave up the pleasures of this world in order to better serve God. That is what is spiritually compelling.

I'm not sure you guys fully understand the magnitude of what you owe to the Blessed Virgin Mary. She could have chosen not to go along with God's plan. She could have chosen not to conceive, she could even have swallowed a few sprigs of silphium (common plant in the Roman era), and aborted her child. And in so doing she would have extinguished all hope for the salvation of humanity. You, me, JonF, and every other person owe our possibility of salvation to the fact that she went ahead and carried the son of God. You owe a debt to her that is unfathomably great.