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Collateral Damage

15 Nov 2007 10:51 am

My mother (yes, even I have a mother) has a web essay over at First Things on the impact of the Catholic sex abuse scandal on the laity, and the creeping tyranny of the insurance industry over the life of the Church. Here's how it starts:

Eight years ago in our urban Catholic parish in Connecticut, a teenager I’ll call Elizabeth started a club for girls ... In the beginning, the club met in the Parish Hall. Anywhere from six to twelve girls, aged ten to eighteen, would sit around a small table, reading the Bible together or making cards for the residents of a nursing home they visited monthly. They would share snacks and devise skits, pray the rosary, and celebrate one another’s birthdays. The older girls mentored the younger girls, modeling for them the endangered truth that a girl can be both sophisticated and innocent, devout and fun. On Holy Days, they attended Mass together. They studied the saints, went on field trips, dedicated themselves to Mary.

Eventually, there was a conflict. The Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, a religious education program for three- to six-year-olds, needed the hall on the same afternoon, and our girls asked for and received from our pastor permission to meet on an enclosed stage in the same hall, far enough from the younger children that noise wasn’t a problem. This stage area turned out to be a kind of teenage heaven, with comfortable sofas, a kitchen in the rear, and its own bathroom. In the wake of the sexual-abuse scandals in the Church, one or more mothers, our backgrounds checked and cleared by the relevant authorities, would sit outside an open door, keeping an eye on the club but also trying to preserve its charism, which was about peer formation, taking responsibility, and making the life of the Church their own.

Summer came, and the club didn’t meet. In August, referred by our pastor to a lay brother I’ll call Giles, I asked if the same arrangement would obtain in the fall. Not meeting my eyes, he said briefly that the girls could continue to meet but not on the stage. They could meet in the library next door, a dark masculine room whose dimensions are almost entirely taken up by a table.

A day later, gathering my courage, I telephoned Brother Giles, explained my concerns, and asked why the girls couldn’t meet on the stage. An abstract, evasive explanation followed, tinged with bitterness, in which the word “bifurcation” figured prominently. No two groups could meet in the same space at the same time, he said. An adult male organization, for example, couldn’t meet in the hall at the same time as the catechesis.

I was still confused, so finally he said what he meant: Our girls couldn’t meet on the stage on Wednesday afternoons because of the possibility that they might molest the younger children.

I was too stunned to make the obvious objections—the physical distance between the two groups; their entirely separate facilities; the intermediary presence of watchful adults. I simply blurted, “But Brother, some of those children are our girls’ younger brothers and sisters!”

“Oh,” he said grimly, “that’s no objection unfortunately.”
Read the whole thing.

Comments (40)

Very nicely done, although I, based on an admittedly superficial impression gathered from your writings and Blogging Heads appearances, have trouble picturing you as a child.

Seriously, your mother's piece is spot-on: the "thesis" of the Church's denial of the problem has spawned an absurd "antithesis" driven by lawyers and risk-reduction specialists. That's, in large part, because people are still in denial, as your mother noted, about what caused the problem in the first place. The story about telling an adult to flee the room rather than console a crying child is a powerful metaphor for how the Church is failing her children.

It's a sad article, how the organization must now swing far to the side of caution and loose intimacy and trust due to the abuses perpetuated by the hierarchy and predatory priests. I have one minor nit to pick. In the article the narrator mentions several times that she considers the acts and abuses in the Catholic scandal "homosexual" acts. Is this not incorrect? Homosexuals are men who are attracted to other men. The scandals involved adult priests preying on small children. Would this not be more accuratly described as "pedophiles"; ie men who prey on children? Pedophiles are generally quite uninterested in men their own age and thus aren't homosexual. Similarily homosexuals aren't generally interested in preying on the very young. I know that social conservatives find it convenient to lump them all together but is it fair in the article for the author to tar homosexuals for the predations of pedophiles?

North, you're an example of the problem. All of the abusers were men, substantially all were priests, and they overwhelmingly were preying on boys or young men. If you want to insist that men who want to have sex with teenage boys aren't true "homosexuals," that's fine, although it reminds me of the people who claimed that the Soviet Union wasn't true Communism. Let's call them "SSPPs" (for same sex pedophile priests), if it makes you happy. But let's not do what I suspect you want to do, which is to insist that same sex attractions weren't a major source of the problem.

The scandals involved adult priests preying on small children.

The vast majority of the scandals involved adult priests preying on teenage boys.

Thanks so much for posting this. I've heard dispiriting stories like this from other Virtus sessions; I learned at one that in my diocese husbands and wives don't count as "multiple adults" and are not allowed to teach or supervise in the same room without another adult present.

Let's not get too het-up about the homosexuality/pedophilia issue. "Homosexual" just means that you're attracted to persons of the same sex; it doesn't imply anything about whether those persons are adults or otherwise appropriate as objects of romantic affection. "Pedophile" just means that you're attracted to children, and implies nothing about gender. The two words are describing two completely different axes, so both are necessary if we're going to describe the situation with any precision. There is heterosexual pedophilia and homosexual pedophilia; by and large, the Church's problem has been one of homosexual pedophilia.

Ivanova, don't you think it's equally important to distinguish between being attracted to teenagers vs. pre-pubescent children?

Ivanova, thanks, that's specific and fair minded enough for me. I'd willingly agree with your definition.
Since most of the victims in the scandals were young, well before the age of consent though perhaps teenagers I'd think there's a good solid element of pedophilia involved, y81. I dare say a 13 year old boy is going to appeal to your average pedophile much more than your average homosexual (well unless the homosexual in question is 13). I'm not asking for any pc nonsense euphamisms, just accurate descriptions.

I do not consider myself "part of the problem" nor do I think that you are, y81.
The problem was a group of closetted, repressed and above all cowardly men in the priesthood and the insular myopic higher ups who shielded them at the expense of their flocks.

According to the DSM-IV definition, pedophilia involves sexual activity by an adult with a prepubescent child. Some individuals prefer females, usually 8- to 10-year-olds. Those attracted to males usually prefers slightly older children. Some prefer both sexes. While some are sexually attracted only to children, others also are sometimes attracted to adults.

http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZUZRUZGLC&sub_cat=355

Pedophilia is marked off by the pubescence of the children, not the age of consent. And most teenage boys are, I take it, past puberty, so attraction to them would not be counted as pedophilia under the standard definition.

* I meant, of course, the PRE-pubescence of the children to whom the pedophiles are attracted.

It is true that most of the Church sexual abuse involved (obviously male) priests abusing teenage males. But its also true that priests spend a lot more time with teenage males than with teenage females - whether because males are much more common as alter attendants, because many priests teach at all male Catholic high schools, or because its more common for Catholic families to send their troubled teenage sons than their troubled teenage daughters to their parish priest for counselling.

To observe that most of the sexual abuse was male-male does not establish that its a homosexual problem per se. It could just be that homosexual priests have a lot more opportunity to be alone with the teenage objects of their sexual interest than do heterosexual priests.

All of this discussion about various definitions of perversity misses the point, which is that the Church has been throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I can't really feel sorry for the Church, or its members, on this one.

With respect to the Church, the reason they have to take ridiculous precautions now is because they not only took insufficient precautions before, but actually harbored criminals and deliberately abetted the molestation of children by failing to cooperate with law enforcement to prosecute their priests-- and the bishops, archbishops, cardinals and Pope who abetted them. So, if now they can't be as chummy and intimate as other youth groups, that's something they should have thought of before they decided to aid and abet all those molestations.

With respect to the members of the Church, it was entirely clear after this scandal that the Church hierarchy, far from being God's representatives on earth, were the worst kinds of criminals, those who valued their own power more than the safety of children.

If you want your children to be able to freely interact and play without this oppressive fear of liability hanging over the enterprise, there are many churches and secular facilities where no children have been molested and such interaction is still possible.

But if you continue to believe that a bunch of proven aiders and abettors of child abuse who should all be serving long prison sentences are Jesus' representatives on earth, then yeah, you're going to have to deal with a climate where people are very careful about these sorts of charges for quite awhile. I don't sympathize.

Re: All of the abusers were men, substantially all were priests

True, so why not also conclude that "men" or "priests" were the core of the problem and therefore the Church should either A) have women priests or B) no priests at all.
To use some common sense here, the awful business should not be used as a hobby-horse for anyone's external agenda, whether of the Right or of the Left. It needs to be dealt with as is, not linked to any larger political themes. To heal, the Church must bring its people together, not divide them along the dreary left/right axis of the modern American culture war.

there are many churches and secular facilities where no children have been molested and such interaction is still possible.

Dilan, not to be too blunt about it, but you're an anti-Catholic bigot. Sure, there was a terrible scandal, and evil by a number of priests (not, as far as I've read, at a much higher rate than among, say, schoolteachers or protestant clergy, mind) -- and most importantly abominable CYA cover-up and callous disregard by bishops and the administrative side of the Church.

But there are plenty of Catholic churches where nobody has been molested -- it wasn't a universal problem. Not every priest is a molester, and not every bishop was involved in a cover-up. And, guess what? There are abuses and cover-ups in schools (I know this through first-hand experience) and protestant churches, too. They aren't as wide-ranging or as horrid, because of the scope of power of the people covering up, and some problems particular, for a time, to the Catholic clergy. But if you think getting away from Rome guarantees you admittance to a Great Disneyland where no child has ever been molested -- you're not just wrong, but you're willfully ignorant to support your bigotry.

But if you continue to believe that a bunch of proven aiders and abettors of child abuse who should all be serving long prison sentences

Every priest? Every bishop? They're all aiders and abettors? Do you even know anything about the scandal, other than that you hate Catholics, and particularly the clergy?

Mind, if someone had the goods to send Mahoney to prison for a while, I wouldn't shed many tears, but there are a lot of good men out there. And, as importantly -- lay Catholics (and their teenage children) are no more likely to be abusers than anyone else. If this climate of fear and distrust makes sense with respect to them as a fitting punishment (in your squalid little mind) for their faith, then it seems like you should find a climate of hostility and mistrust for Muslims (who continue to believe in a faith that inspires mass terrorism and cruelty) a wonderful thing.

Note: for myself, I don't particularly care for guilt-by-association or "well, they haven't denounced Mohammed and thus must love bin Laden" (the equivalent of visiting the sins of some bishops and priests on the teenaged children of Catholic laypeople) treatment of the good folks I know of that faith. But then, I'm a jerk but perhaps not such a jerk as Dilan seems to be.

Big Brothers/Big Sisters can’t even get insurance.

The "sex abuse" scandal in our countries public schools is 100 times the problem it is for Church of every denomination (and other venues)

It’s just never portrayed as an institutional problem, but rather as a series of discreet incidents.

The “cover up” is also present in our public schools (and other institutions) The parents and the victim don’t want to file formal charges, the institutions don’t want to destroy someone’s career & reputation based on mere allegations. Everyone is afraid of lawsuits so the predator is allowed to quietly slip away.

The Marquis and Fitz: You're right, of course (although I would question the accuracy of Fitz's 100 times the problem figure), but you'll never convince him, so it's not worth the effort.

James - Thanks

Yes 100 times was rehtorical (but given the shear size of public education not bombasticly so)

The real question is why??

Given that the "sex abuse crises" was an open secret. Given that it exists in multiple institution; indeed any institution with access to young people... why did this "crises" get "revealed" and reportesd on with such gusto at the time & place it did?

Hmmmmm.

But there are plenty of Catholic churches where nobody has been molested -- it wasn't a universal problem. Not every priest is a molester, and not every bishop was involved in a cover-up. And, guess what? There are abuses and cover-ups in schools (I know this through first-hand experience) and protestant churches, too. They aren't as wide-ranging or as horrid, because of the scope of power of the people covering up, and some problems particular, for a time, to the Catholic clergy. But if you think getting away from Rome guarantees you admittance to a Great Disneyland where no child has ever been molested -- you're not just wrong, but you're willfully ignorant to support your bigotry.

Marquis, you miss the point. The organization, from the Pope on down, abetted the molestations. In other words, I don't blame the Church for there having been molestations. I blame the Church for not turning in every single priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal, and Pope who either participated in or knew of the conduct, and turning over every piece of information about the molestations to the police. I blame the Church for reassigning priests so they could molest more kids.

And my point wasn't that there aren't molestations in other religious organizations either. My point was that there are many orginizations with a clean record where you can take your kids and you don't need to worry about all the precautions Ross' mother complains about. If a person insists on taking their kids to Catholic institutions, well, there are going to be lots of precautions. That's the cost of a big sex abuse scandal, and it is a low one compared to the cost that should have been paid.

I won't respond to your allegations of bigotry, except to say that anyone who calls someone a bigot for pointing out the Church's aiding and abetting child molestations obviously doesn't care very much about the welfare of all those people who will never get their lives back because of the Church's actions.

Every priest? Every bishop? They're all aiders and abettors?

Marquis, the organization is replete with individuals who should have gone to jail and didn't. This bothers me rather personally because the sitting cardinal in my hometown seems to have not been held responsible even to the level of Lindsay Lohan's 84 minutes in jail for what he did, and what he did caused untold number of children and teens to be sexually abused.

The point is, these people basically proved the falsity of their religion in the sense that the hierarchy claims to be God's representatives on earth-- God's representatives on earth would have reported molestors to the police so children could have been protected, and the HIERARCHY didn't. It is the hierarchy, not every individual bishop or priest, that I am complaining about. And anyone who continues to believe in THIS hierarchy is going to have to live with restrictions on what their church can do with their children. Again, zero sympathy for me.

Dilan, you have a very different view of God's representatives on earth than Catholics do. An examination of Renaissance popes would reveal that wise action, human decency, and so forth are not what serious Catholics take to be the mark of the Church. Teaching true doctrine, alas, is all we get. And we get that more in the negative than the positive sense (not teaching falsehood rather than being very vigorous in the defense of truth and wisdom).

More to the point, the restrictions talked about here aren't on priests, or the hierarchy -- they are on, for example, teenage children meeting. You have "zero sympathy" because you're a bigoted jerk who likes seeing people with beliefs you dislike punished for things other people did. That's a pretty common liberal/libertarian sentiment these days with respect to the religiously faithful, but it, at any time in history, makes you a colossal jerk.

More to the point, the restrictions talked about here aren't on priests, or the hierarchy -- they are on, for example, teenage children meeting. You have "zero sympathy" because you're a bigoted jerk who likes seeing people with beliefs you dislike punished for things other people did.

I have zero sympathy because the Church did a massive wrong-- as an organization-- and is going to have to reearn the trust of society, and in the meantime, must be very careful and cautious.

Look, if we weren't talking about your religion here, would there even be a controversy about what I said (much less accusations of "bigotry"?). Suppose the YMCA had this sort of a sex scandal-- I mean not only abuses at local chapters but systematic cover-ups going all the way to the top of the organization. So, as a result, after much public criticism, the YMCA put in some drastic rules that are preventative in nature and designed to ensure that situations don't arise where abuses can happen. If someone said "if they wanted to avoid this, they should have thought about it before covering up the prior abuses and if the parents want to avoid it, they need to go somewhere where there isn't a history of molestations", would you accuse that person of anti-YMCA "bigotry"?

Seriously, I think you hear any criticism of your church's hierarchy and you immediately scream that the person is a bigot. That's just flat wrong.

If the Catholic Church had reacted to the scandal by cleaning house and turning over all the people (including every person in the hierarchy that knew about the molestations or the cover up, or refused or approved the refusal to cooperate with law enforcement) and documents relating to the sex abuse scandal to law enforcement for prosecution, I wouldn't have any criticism of the church at all. Indeed, I would hold it up as the proper way to respond to such a scandal.

I am criticizing the Church's CONDUCT. I am not anti-Catholic. I am anti-the Catholic hierarchy that put their own interests ahead of their solemn, and if you are religious, sacred duty to protect the children placed in the Church's care.

You should learn to temper your charges of bigotry.

Dilan: I know you mean well, but a person can't just turn his religious beliefs on and off the way he can turn his club memberships on and off. As far as I can tell, and please correct me if I'm misreading you, you think the solution for the recent scandals would be for every Catholic to leave the Church and for the organization that built most of Western civilization (or at least far more than the YMCA) and teaches what many people still believe to be true to go belly-up overnight. That may not be bigotry in the technical sense, but it certainly is anti-Catholic.

"Seriously, I think you hear any criticism of your church's hierarchy and you immediately scream that the person is a bigot. That's just flat wrong."

The thing is you were quite sweeping about it. You basically referred to the entire hierarchy as "the worst kinds of criminals." I guess you are thinking that Catholics can just fire them all and start over, but even in democratic governments it doesn't work like that.

I imagine at least some of us know bishops. By painting the hierarchy with such a sweeping brush you come off a bit unfair. Should the Amish be dismantled because of instances of sexual abuse and their tendency to handle it "among ourselves." Is the entire Department of Education to blame for teacher abuse? Do you want to dismantle it? Think of all the abuse cops do and cover up for. Also do you really believe the Pope is capable or inclined to micromanage every diocese to the point he's responsible for every abuse? Why?

The Catholic Church in America is pretty screwy and if possible I'd be tempted to switch allegiance to some foreign diocese. Still to make it out like the hierarchy as a whole is a conspiracy of pervert abettors is a very old anti-Catholic calumny.

Re: Still to make it out like the hierarchy as a whole is a conspiracy of pervert abettors is a very old anti-Catholic calumny.

It's 'very old' maybe even more than you think; it goes back at least five centuries to the time of Luther, if not even older. I'm not Catholic but to my shame, I admit that when the sex abuse scandals started being rumored about, I didn't believe a word of it....those who oppose the Catholic church for good or bad reasons had cried wolf about this issue for so long (five centuries) that I thought it was just more of the same. I suspect that other people felt the same way....which is tragic but really the effect of many generations of those calumnies you were talking about.

Good point about every bureaucracy being liable to corruption. I doubt there is much MORE abuse in the Church than in schools, police forces, etc.

Other Churches, right down to the store-front ones, have a sex-abuse problem by clergy and other Church workers. The BIG turn-off for us all is that the traditional Churches all claim that their leaders are successors of the Apostles, who had some fairly powerful insights, e.g., Peter picked liars like Ananias and his wife. But the modern bishops can't even see that a seminarian who is having illicit sex is not suitable to be ordained! The leaders of many Churches and many televangelists are not living up to the teachings of Jesus. Therefore it is no good trying to tell us that there is some bad child sex abuse going on in State schools, in non-Christian religions, and even in the home. A clergyman is supposed to be a good shepherd, not a wolf in sheep's clothing. Just find the
www.bishop-accountability.org/abusetracker webpages which are filed daily by Kathy Shaw, and after a week of reading that you'll be very cynical about organised religion.

Lots of good points being made here.

The thing is you were quite sweeping about it. You basically referred to the entire hierarchy as "the worst kinds of criminals." I guess you are thinking that Catholics can just fire them all and start over, but even in democratic governments it doesn't work like that.

Dilan, this doesn't make me very popular with the other Catholics around (nor my Catholic friends), I'm sure, but I agree with you. I think they are the worst kind of criminals. Even other criminals believe that those who participate in molestation against children are the worst among them. Too broad a brush should not be painted, but those heirarchy members who knew about these events and covered them up are guilty of crimes. Shouldn't they be fired? Under U.S. law (at least in most circuits), a corporation's knowledge is considered to be the sum of the knowledge of the individual members. The corporation is responsible for the acts of its employees and agents when they act within the scope of that employment/agency. Why are these three sound legal theories suddenly tossed out the window when the Church is involved? It burns me beyond belief that my collection plate money goes to settlements, gag agreements, and lawyers fees, meanwhile nuns are being tossed out on the street and the Church has no money for other things.

Of course, I doubt very much that there is more child abuse in our Catholic Churches than in those of any other denomination, and certainly, not any more than in our schools. But:

Is the entire Department of Education to blame for teacher abuse? Do you want to dismantle it?

Well, no. Actually, yes, it probably should be dismantled, but that's not the reason. (Haha, that reminds me of the X-Files episode where Scully asks Mulder "Should we arrest David Copperfield?" and Mulder says "Yes. But not for this." ) The Department of Education does not employ the teachers in question, so it is not responsible for their actions. Certainly, if, for example, a principal or the school board is aware of abuse, and covers it up or does nothing about it, the principal should, at the very least, be fired, no?

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church is a source of great good in this world, and in this country. Something that good has the capacity to be that much more harmful if corrupted. That's not a reason to stop attending Church or destroy the institution, of course, but it is a reason for the Church to accept responsibility , clean house, and stop whining that media attention on the scandal stems from media bias. To turn the question around, don't you hold our Church to a higher standard than a freakin' public school?!

Dilan Esper (writes)

"The organization, from the Pope on down, abetted the molestations. In other words, I don't blame the Church for there having been molestations. I blame the Church for not turning in every single priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal, and Pope who either participated in or knew of the conduct, and turning over every piece of information about the molestations to the police. I blame the Church for reassigning priests so they could molest more kids."

This is simply intellectually dishonest. There are standards of evidence, formal complaints most be filed – even accused molesters are only alleged molesters. Priests have the same due process rights as every citizen. What you seem to want to understand as a single “scandal” is really the reactions of Dioceses & Bishops over a 40 year time frame. (as the article points out) For years, abusive priests were farmed out to therapeutic experts for rehabilitation. This was the best psychological evidence of the time telling everyone that molesters could be cured.

You had a variety of reactions and policies instituted for a “scandal’ that peeked in the 1970’s. Sometimes Priests were defrocked and taken out of ministry. Sometimes (when charges were pressed) they went to jail. Every Priest (as a standard part of ministry) is regularly transferred to different parishes. Often Priests with suspicion surrounding them (but no formal proof) were transferred to activities were the presence of young people was minimal or non-existent. The Vatican had initiated a of seminary training on the subject in the early 1980.

You need to read the John Jay report & other articles that give this “scandal” important perspective. It has been served up to you on a silver platter so you could draw the very “conclusions” you have drawn. Question Authority.

Hugo (writes)

"The corporation is responsible for the acts of its employees and agents when they act within the scope of that employment/agency. Why are these three sound legal theories suddenly tossed out the window when the Church is involved? It burns me beyond belief that my collection plate money goes to settlements, gag agreements, and lawyers fees, meanwhile nuns are being tossed out on the street and the Church has no money for other things."

Yes… Accountability financially goes all the way up the chain of command and ends at the local Bishop. This is how the Church is set up and it is fair. Neither the national conference nor the Vatican has effective control over every parish and its clergy. If it is a religious order it is the provincial general who is responsible.

The law suits you site have been against particular dioceses. The payouts are a responsibility of those diocese & their insurance companies. Were do you expect these dioceses to get the money other than parishioners and Church assets?

Often the first asset to go has been the Bishops residence, typically a lavish mansion bought at the time of the great Catholic ethnic migration to this country. This seems appropriate. The Slate article you quote is a typical smear piece. Usually orders of Nuns own their own property. These particular Nuns lived in property owned by the L.A. diocese. In a appraisal of the assets to liquefy for the settlement a decision was made to sell that particular parcel. Those Nuns will find another home probably provided by the dioceses. By all means Hugo, as a Catholic—I encourage you to contact those nuns or the L.A. Bishop and start raising funds so they can continue their good work.

I will do the same.

Fitz -

I don't mean to suggest that the Vatican or heirarchy members individually should be responsible for every act committed by a church official unless they bear some personal responsibility. What I mean is that using the organizational analogy, the Church as an instituion must bear some responsibility all the way up to the top.

It is easy to dismiss things as "smear pieces" or people as "anti-Catholic" bigots, and often it has the added bonus of being true. But to the extent that it becomes a way of avoiding the real problem, it's not helpful.

I think I previously posted that I have continued to attend church regularly and actually increased my donations and work for the church because I do believe it is a dark time (if not a crisis) for the American church and I think as a member, it's incumbent on me to increase my support in any possible way I can and, if anything, increase my devotion to the Church. I do not suggest otherwise. (Of course, my status as a Catholic doesn't really depend on anything that priests or officials do or don't do but on the fact that I believe in Christ, in the Bible, and in church teachings, so in that sense it doesn't really matter.) But I do find it upsetting that some of that support is going to payoffs for offenses committed against children after Church officials already knew that the priest in question was a risk, not because it's my money, but because those offenses were preventable.

And as a proponent of victim's rights in the criminal law arena, again, those ideals don't go out the window because the criminal in question is a church official. I'm definitely not interested in tearing down the Church, quite the opposite, but I'm also not particularly interested in making excuses.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church is a source of great good in this world, and in this country. Something that good has the capacity to be that much more harmful if corrupted. That's not a reason to stop attending Church or destroy the institution, of course, but it is a reason for the Church to accept responsibility , clean house, and stop whining that media attention on the scandal stems from media bias.

This is essentially as I view it. I am not anti-Catholic. Indeed, on many theological and philosophical matters, I think the Catholic Church makes much more sense than evangelical protestants. (If we had a discussion about the importance of human reason as opposed to blind aherence to scripture, you would see me defend the Church pretty vehemently.)

But what gets me is that this was a deep problem regarding the molestation of children, and the POLICY of the Church was cover it up, not cooperate with law enforcement, and keep the priests on the job.

And that's really my answer to all of you who say that the hierarchy is not responsible. The Pope could have, with one pronouncement, ordered every diocese in the western world to turn over its files on abusive priests, and cover-ups by bishops, to law enforcement for prosecution. Cardinals could have done that in their own jurisdictions.

And the evidence is clear that the hierarchy knew this was the policy. They had entire institutions set up where they would send problem priests, "cure" them with prayer, and send them back to other parishes-- WHO WOULD NEVER BE INFORMED OF THE PRIEST'S RECORD-- where they would end up molesting more kids. The police was never called, the files were never turned over.

I am sorry, but that is not like a school or another church having a child molestation issue came up. The hierarchy, in this case, behaved as a criminal conspiracy. And yes, there is evidence that John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger (now Benedict XVI) knew of and approved of these policies. Indeed, even now, Benedict XVI is keeping Cardinal Law-- a crucial witness and potential criminal-- in the Vatican, immune from a subpoena, and has not ordered dioceses to cooperate with law enforcement; many still aren't.

To those who say it is not easy to leave a church, I say two things: (1) to avoid the issues that Ross' mother identifies, all you have to do is send your CHILDREN to non-Church youth activities, not leave the Church; that's not a big imposition; and (2) I would hope that any serious Catholic would learn the facts of what happened and what the hierarchy's policies were and how they led to additional molestations, and that they would consider those facts in determining whether the believer still believes in these people.

I assume that if you saw hierarchy involved in some gravely evil activity, that would cause you to question your faith-- not in Christianity, but in the authority of THIS hiearchy. Your belief in this faith is a product, in part, of your belief in the Church's good works-- feeding the poor, opposing war and capital punishment and (I don't agree with this one, but I know many Catholics do) abortion, giving sanctuary to refugees, etc.

So here the Church-- as an institution-- had policies and practices that were designed to protect vile criminals in its midst and reassign them to new parishes where they could prey on more children without the knowledge of the parents who put the utmost trust in the Church to do what is right. In my mind, this was a profoundly evil series of acts. And I think if more Catholics had threatened to bolt, rather than claiming that this was all a product of anti-Catholic bias and bigotry, it might have induced the Church to do the right thing and turn over its files and everyone who participated in the crimes or the cover-up.

"So here the Church-- as an institution-- had policies and practices that were designed to protect vile criminals in its midst and reassign them to new parishes where they could prey on more children without the knowledge of the parents who put the utmost trust in the Church to do what is right. In my mind, this was a profoundly evil series of acts."

This is a myth and a lie that you a perpetrating.

This is simply intellectually dishonest. There are standards of evidence, formal complaints most be filed – even accused molesters are only alleged molesters. Priests have the same due process rights as every citizen. What you seem to want to understand as a single “scandal” is really the reactions of Dioceses & Bishops over a 40 year time frame. (as the article points out) For years, abusive priests were farmed out to therapeutic experts for rehabilitation. This was the best psychological evidence of the time telling everyone that molesters could be cured.

You had a variety of reactions and policies instituted for a “scandal’ that peeked in the 1970’s. Sometimes Priests were defrocked and taken out of ministry. Sometimes (when charges were pressed) they went to jail. Every Priest (as a standard part of ministry) is regularly transferred to different parishes. Often Priests with suspicion surrounding them (but no formal proof) were transferred to activities were the presence of young people was minimal or non-existent. The Vatican had initiated a of seminary training on the subject in the early 1980.

You need to read the John Jay report & other articles that give this “scandal” important perspective. It has been served up to you on a silver platter so you could draw the very “conclusions” you have drawn. Question Authority.

"maybe even more than you think; it goes back at least five centuries to the time of Luther, if not even older."

Thanks, but yes I knew that. I have a degree in history and I'm working (very slowly it seems) on my Master's.

I'm sorry Dilan, but you must not have understood what I meant. I don't mean "pedophiles happen everywhere", I meant the transferring and obstructing also happens many places. The school systems do transfer abusive teachers from one district to another. My local school has kept a lid on the fact that a former principle sexually harassed, or possibly more, high school students. In Australia the Anglicans did the same on abuse of Aboriginal people.

You might be unaware of this because the media is less interested in the matter when it involves non-Catholics. I don't think that's an anti-Catholic thing as much as an anti-celibacy thing. The idea of male celibacy is strongly viewed as a perversion by many in the media as is the existence of a male-exclusive group. Teachers or Anglican priests are neither thing at present.

And the idea we should never send youth to Church activities is moral panic and paranoia.

Still hugo has a point. The Catholic Church should be better than school systems or police forces. As a Catholic I might say it should ideally be better than Anglicans. I can't remember the encyclical, but there are ones going back to the 1700s that specifically state men shouldn't be allowed in the priesthood if they are of poor virtue or endanger kids. So something got screwed up there.

And the idea we should never send youth to Church activities is moral panic and paranoia.

I am not even saying that. Indeed, I bet that with the new procedures, things are a lot safer.

I was only saying that if someone wants to decry all the new procedures as overkill (as Ross' mother does), that was something that they should have thought of before transferring priests and assigning them to molest more children. The reason the Church has to be careful is because the hierarchy did a profoundly bad thing and now has to watch its back. The Church has only itself to blame for this.

So if you want to send your kids to places where they won't have the overkill safety measures, THEN you have to send them to non-Catholic events.

This is simply intellectually dishonest. There are standards of evidence, formal complaints most be filed – even accused molesters are only alleged molesters. Priests have the same due process rights as every citizen. What you seem to want to understand as a single “scandal” is really the reactions of Dioceses & Bishops over a 40 year time frame. (as the article points out) For years, abusive priests were farmed out to therapeutic experts for rehabilitation. This was the best psychological evidence of the time telling everyone that molesters could be cured.

Fitz:

Those treatment centers were an obstruction of justice. You see, it isn't up to the Church to decide that its priests do not need to go to jail but only need to be "treated" for sexual abuse. By sending the priests to those treatment centers, not turning over evidence of numerous crimes to the police, and then reassigning the priests to other parishes WITHOUT WARNING THE PARENTS ABOUT THEIR HISTORIES, the members of the Church hierarchy were accessories to child molestation.

And by the way, don't tell me there was no "policy". The treatment centers were a policy. They were set up and paid for by the Catholic hierarchy. And by setting them up, the Church hierarchy decided that it was above the law.

those facts in determining whether the believer still believes in these people.

I _believe_ in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The Saints and His mother, too. I think my local bishop is, God have mercy on us all, carrying on in the apostolic succession, but that is more about a means of transmitting a message, not the device of holiness or wisdom itself, alas. Maybe the problem is that the (modern? I guess not really) confusion between "this man holds an office and power and authority that is legitimate and which I must respect in those ways it is due respect" and "this man is virtuous, in his own right." It is _good_ when a bishop has virtue and wisdom, but it is not guaranteed. Looking at early church history, bishops can even be fountains of heresy. Looking at later church history, a pope may occasionally appear who is as bad a man as you can find, contemplating sacrificing his illegitimate children to the devil in order to further the politics of some city-state.

Ok, with some more elaboration I'm willing to cut Dilan some slack. I still think "zero sympathy" for the lay-people (who knew jack squat about any of this, in almost all cases, during the times it was a big problem) is pretty heartless -- the kind of "you (sort of, but not really) made your bed, now lie in it" thing _conservatives_ are generally accused of is pretty harsh, but the basic complaint about the shuffling to treatment centers I agree with. On the other hand -- some of the motivation was "expert guidance" and a (misguided and insane variation of) mercy and "hope for repentance" -- much of what was done was "cover it up" and clerical-chumminess, but some was less monstrously motivated. Moreover, it wasn't every bishop, and the Vatican's politices here are more complex and rooted in history, church claims of autonomy, and other sources than in the kind of repugnant motives that (I am afraid) most often moved the American hierarchy's worst actions. And, obviously, I'm more sympathetic than Dilan is to the church being "above the law" in some sense -- canon law punishing bad clergy goes back a long ways, historically.

On the other hand -- some of the motivation was "expert guidance" and a (misguided and insane variation of) mercy and "hope for repentance" -- much of what was done was "cover it up" and clerical-chumminess, but some was less monstrously motivated.

Marquis, I will agree with you that there were certainly officials in the Church hierarchy who believed they were doing the right thing, within their religious faith, in trying to "treat" these individuals. It is hard to figure out what the mixture was of those motives, though, because it happens that the ministerial desire to pray to God and treat these people just happened to coincide with the desire to cover things up and not go to the police. And, of course, lost in all of this was the children; in a sense, the worst part of the policy wasn't simply the treatment centers but sending the priests to new parishes without warning the parents or taking any action to ensure that the priests wouldn't be in situations whether they could recidivize. Even if we assume that some in the Church had good motives in trying to "treat" the priests' illness, the practice of not warning the new congregations seems to be 100 percent about cover-up rather than helping the priests.

But when it comes to child molestation or other similarly violent crimes in countries with a fair legal system, I don't agree with you that there is any role for the Church to be above the law. I do believe that the Church should get all sorts of exemptions from various sorts of things that go to the internal governance of the Church, and I don't want government agencies harassing the Catholic Church.
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But the need to protect children outweighs that. Someone getting fired who would have been protected by an anti-discrimination law, or not collecting some taxes that the government would have been able to collect from a secular enterprise, is a small price to pay to protect religious freedom. But the sexual abuse of a child is too big a price.

And the fact is, I don't think that the Vatican was acting as a matter of principle here. Calling back Cardinal Law and making him immune from process is not a matter of principle; it's ensuring that he never has to tell what he knows about the Church hierarchy's knowledge about the sex abuse scandal. But even if we assume it is a matter of principle, it is a bad one. How many fewer children would have been abused if the Church had better principles. Turning over criminals to the police strikes me as a fairly straightforward application of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Dilan,

I don't really disagree -- and in the cases where (clearly) someone in the hierarchy decided that there had been abuse, turning over to the cops was the right thing to do, and wasn't done -- and I think Vatican policy was wrong on that. I will admit that I don't know enough to know how much was honest (or semi-willfully dishonest but semi-honest) doubt about guilt -- in many cases there doesn't seem to have been much. But the actual clearly guilty pedophiles are a small number of egregious cases, covered up. The large number of cases appear to have been more dubious, "he says/ he says" cases, and some reaction to the unfortunate fact that child molestation (for good reasons) tends to result in witch hunts and "guilty until (per impossible) proven innocent behavior". Certainly in day care cases in the US in various places this seems to have been the case. How much was this? Not a lot, it looks like to me, but it did probably play into things.

Certainly in day care cases in the US in various places this seems to have been the case. How much was this? Not a lot, it looks like to me, but it did probably play into things.

I am not sure you are right that so many of the cases were "he said/she said"-- the victims who have come out have almost all sounded very credible to me, and the records indicate that there were pretty significant numbers of priests who were sent to treatment and reassigned.

But even if I assume that you are right about there being a large number of questionable cases, I still think they had to call the police. In a democratic society, the police, and not enterprises which may be acting out of self-interest to minimize the investigation, has to be in charge of these sorts of investigations. The fact that the McMartin Pre-School case was horribly botched, for instance, doesn't mean that if there is a claim of abuse at another pre-school, the administrators should handle it in house. The protection of children from abuse pretty much goes to the core of any conception of the functions of government.

And, of course, it wasn't as if the only sin here was not calling the police, as you concede.

Holy Astroglide! The same old suspects are back, defending their sick, evil old Church against the indefensible.

Here's the deal, folks - for decades on end, the Church covered up the rape of children - male and female, pubescent and prepubescent. The cover-up went all the way up to the gawd-damned top. The current Pope was hip-deep in it. (I understand if you hold a Shoe of the Fisherman up to your ear these days you can hear the anguished cries of raped children.)

Not a single one of these higher-ups has ever been held responsible in any way. Not by the authorities, and not by the Church itself. One of the biggest liars and scumbags, Cardinal Law of Boston, was actually given a promotion to a plum Vatican post after the heinous machinations he was involved with were revealed.

What the usual suspects would have you believe is that the kids who were molested weren't really victims because a lot of them were HOMOSEXUALS. They won't come right out and say that, but it is what some of them really believe.

Cardinal Law and Pope Ratzinger are men who should never be left alone with young children. Hell, I wouldn't leave either one of them alone with an incubator baby. And I have to say I'd have the same qualms about people who still make excuses for these detestable maggots at this late date.

(As for Fitz and his "100 times" nonsense, it's consistent with his honest treatment of this issue every time it comes up. Any rational person can distinguish between an international cabal of molestors and te incidence of molestation in the general public. When someone demonstrates that he can't do that, just slap a Knights of Columbus sash on him and point and giggle.)

As for the "creeping tyranny of the insurance company over the life of the Church," what's to prevent the Church from trusting in god and going without such insurance?

Is there some particular reason the Church needs to own uncounted billions -perhaps trillions- of dollars worth of art and gold? For those who believe in the legends, how much did Jeezus have in the bank?

But there I go again, supposing that there's something exceptionally hypocritical about the very existence of the worldly and super-wealthy Church. The original MegaChurch!

Which Hummer Would Jesus Drive?