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Ethical Concerns And Church-State Violations

23 Nov 2007 10:24 am

I was thinking about saying something about this Richard Cohen column while I was ranting at Jon Chait about religion and democracy, but decided to let it slide. In the aftermath of the stem-cell news, though, it seems worth bringing up again. Cohen writes:

Back before Bush, it was considered narrow-minded and, worst of all, elitist, to judge a person by the intensity of his religious convictions. Belief was not supposed to matter, and so it was impermissible to conclude anything about a person even if he thought Darwin was wrong or, more recently, that homosexuals chose their sexual orientation, presumably just to irritate the Christian right. Religion was irrelevant. Everyone said so -- and I agreed.

Bush changed that. He infused government with religion, everything from ineffective programs that promote sexual abstinence to an adamant refusal to authorize federal spending for most embryonic stem-cell research. The administration even erected barriers to the marketing of the Plan B morning-after pill. All these measures ran up against obstacles that were essentially religious, not strictly scientific, in nature.

Richard Cohen, meet James A. Thomson:

Dr. Thomson’s laboratory at the University of Wisconsin was one of two that in 1998 plucked stem cells from human embryos for the first time, destroying the embryos in the process and touching off a divisive national debate.

And on Tuesday, his laboratory was one of two that reported a new way to turn ordinary human skin cells into what appear to be embryonic stem cells without ever using a human embryo.

The fact is, Dr. Thomson said in an interview, he had ethical concerns about embryonic research from the outset, even though he knew that such research offered insights into human development and the potential for powerful new treatments for disease.

If human embryonic stem cell research does not make you at least a little bit uncomfortable, you have not thought about it enough,” he said. “I thought long and hard about whether I would do it.”

He decided in the end to go ahead, reasoning that the work was important and that he was using embryos from fertility clinics that would have been destroyed otherwise. The couples whose sperm and eggs were used to create the embryos had said they no longer wanted them. Nonetheless, Dr. Thomson said, announcing that he had obtained human embryonic stem cells was “scary,” adding, “It was not known how it would be received.”

Hmmm. So he found the work ethically troubling, but decided to go ahead, on the justification that the embryos he would use were slated for destruction anyway. This is, of course, distinct from George W. Bush's more conservative position, which was that we should provide federal funds only for research on stem cells from embryos that had already been killed - albeit while making no attempt, one might add, to impede private research like Dr. Thomson's. But just how distinct are they, and what's the nature of the distinction? Well, that's a good question ... and hey, maybe Richard Cohen can answer it. He seems pretty sure of himself, after all. So my challenge to Cohen is this: Please explain why the Bush position is so distinct from Dr. Thomson's as to make the latter a responsible scientist, and the former a dangerously-religious zealot who elevated faith over "science," and permanently effaced the bright line between church and state. I'll give you, say, nine hundred words or so to do so.

Meanwhile, I'd saying something snide about this passage ...

If anything, Romney is the anti-Huckabee. There is not the slightest hint that his religion has constrained his politics in any way. You name the issue and he's been for it and against it -- gun control, abortion, gay rights. Call this what you may, it is proof that Romney is not enslaved by any dogma. His religion, to which he is committed, is distinctly his business and would not, as far I can tell, have any bearing on his presidency.

... but it would be tough to top Larison.

Comments (58)

I must have missed the line in Mr. Cohen's column that suggested Dr. Thomson was "a responsible scientist". Did he say it somewhere else?

Ross, I don't care how many scientists you bring up, the fact of the matter is that the reason BUSH opposed embryonic stem cell research was because of objections of religious conservatives who have beliefs about embryos that wouldn't change no matter what scientists said. So Cohen's criticism stands.

I don't think the bolded passage is referring to the same reasons that would make Bush and Ross uncomfortable.

“It is unusual in the history of science for a scientist to really want to think carefully about the ethical implications of his work before he sets out to do it,” Dr. Fost said. “The biggest problem in ethics is not anticipating problems.”

But Dr. Fost and Dr. Thomson guessed wrong about what would bother people most. They thought it would be what Dr. Fost termed “the technological power” of stem cells. What if someone put human stem cells into the brain of a rat, for example?

Getting stem cells from skin cells doesn't really alleviate those problems at all. So it's not just that there's some distance between Bush's position and Thomson's, the two positions are seem completely orthogonal.

"Ross, I don't care how many scientists you bring up, the fact of the matter is that the reason BUSH opposed embryonic stem cell research was because of objections of religious conservatives who have beliefs about embryos that wouldn't change no matter what scientists said. So Cohen's criticism stands."

Dilan, I think you are a bit muddled. Religious conservatives oppose embryonic stem cell research because it involves the destruction of embryos which are human life at an early stage of development. It is scientists that say that embryos are human life; religious conservatives combine that insight with the principle that human life should not be destroyed absent clear necessity (e.g. self-defense) and conclude that human embryonic life should be protected.

You likely share the insight that human life should be protected at some point in development. The question for you is, why do you choose that point and not another; how do you distinguish between life that is human and can be destroyed with life that is human and cannot be destroyed?

John B writes: "Dilan, I think you are a bit muddled. Religious conservatives oppose embryonic stem cell research because it involves the destruction of embryos which are human life at an early stage of development. It is scientists that say that embryos are human life; religious conservatives combine that insight with the principle that human life should not be destroyed absent clear necessity (e.g. self-defense) and conclude that human embryonic life should be protected."

This is at least a little disingenuous. "Religious conservatives" should be read as "Christian conservatives," and the reason they oppose embryonic stem cell research is because they think embryos have souls. That there is not a single rational reason to think souls exist or that embryos contain them has to be pointed out.

Also, the vast majority of Christian conservatives in this country displayed their reverence for life by looking on with gape-mouthed wonder and approval as Dumbya and company bombed the living hell out of a country filled with actual human life. Somehow they have never - not even for a single moment - let their "reverence" for life interfere with their support for this massive act of murder.

Perhaps they don't think Iraqis have what embryos have.

Moe, etc.
I'm afraid you have it wrong. Christians only believe that human embryos have souls because they believe they are human life, and the reason they believe human embryos constitute human life is because that is what science says. Whether souls exist or not is neither here nor there. Dr. Thomson recognizes equally clearly that human embryos are human life, and has ethical reservations (that he does not observe) on that account.

As to the Iraq war, certainly the majority of Christians supported it, as did 2/3 of the country. I did not, but I guess I don't have the same disdain as you do for many of the people that did.

Dr. Thomson recognizes equally clearly that human embryos are human life, and has ethical reservations (that he does not observe) on that account.

See what I bolded up above. It doesn't at all seem to be the destruction of human life that worried Thomson but rather leftist/crunchy "Frankenfoodish" objections like those linked to by Ross a few days ago. http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/11/stem_cells_race_and_the_future.php

Consumatopia,

Yeah, I saw your post and agree that is part of Thomson's objection, but the Cohen column explicitly says that he reasoned that the embryos were going to be destroyed anyway after noting his moral qualms, so it was probably a case of both/and rather than either/or. The destroyed anyway reasoning, assuming it is Cohen's as the article presents, doesn't address the 'frankenfoodish' concern either.

The destroyed anyway reasoning, assuming it is Cohen's as the article presents, doesn't address the 'frankenfoodish' concern either.

That's true, but I think that's parsing too closely an interview that's coming to us, as you note, second-hand (and not via Cohen--two different pieces here)--in particular, the destroyed-anyway part is not in quotes.

I point out all the time that the embryos will be destroyed anyway, but that doesn't mean I assign them much moral significance--it's more a "whether or not your ethics are right, your policy is still wrong" sort of thing. It also describes him as surprised that it became controversial as a life issue--even if it's a both/and, the horrors of rat hybrids seem to rank higher.

Even if Thomson does have life-begins-at-conception ethical difficulties with ESCR, it seems implausible that he would apply the statement Ross bolded to those discomforts. Living things of greater complexity than new embryos are destroyed with every with every fly we swat. If one believes that human life and our 46 chromosomes are everything and non-human life is nothing, then ESCR must stop and animal research can continue. But if you don't believe that, it need not be because you haven't thought about things enough.

On the other hand, one can find *something* uncomfortable about any "technological power" if one thinks hard enough.

This is a pretty good point. Bush's supposedly unparalleled religious nature is overblown at nearly every corner. I don't disagree with the idea that he's given in to some religious programs and rhetoric I think is absurd, but the bright line Cohen wants to draw is considerably more muddled.

In the history of atheism, for instance, Bush just might be the first President since George Washington who has outright said that non-believers are good people and citizens too. For all his others faults, I still give him credit for that: it's certainly not something he had to say.

And by and by, it's amazing the sort of dishonesty that both sides of this issue let their allies get away with...

"I'm afraid you have it wrong. Christians only believe that human embryos have souls because they believe they are human life, and the reason they believe human embryos constitute human life is because that is what science says."

This is, simply put, BS. What science says is that embryos are human life... in exactly the same way that a discarded skin cell is human life, no more, no less. i.e. they are cells which contain homo sapien DNA. The question of whether an embryo, which are cells executing the start of a particular genetic program to build a fetus out of the raw materials they consume from a uterine wall, are yet is a human person is not a question for which science has any answer.

Stop trying to cheat your way into your position via equivocation. If you are going to make a case for it, then do so. We're all waiting to hear it.

John B replies: "As to the Iraq war, certainly the majority of Christians supported it, as did 2/3 of the country. I did not, but I guess I don't have the same disdain as you do for many of the people that did."

I don't necessarily have "disdain" for all of those who initially supported it. I certainly do have disdain - or perhaps more accurately, contempt - for the bloodthirsty morons who continue to support it and the amoral tapeworms who led us into it based on lies.

For those whose initial support was based on bizarre Christianist crusade/apocalyptic fantasies I always have and always will maintain my disdain. They're an ongoing threat to the decency and sanity of this country.

Bad,

Somebody may be cheating, but it's not me. I said that human embryos are human life, to which you responded b.s. and proceeded to talk about...how embryos are human life.

I said nothing about personhood. Although it would be interesting to hear your thoughts about personhood, it is inherently a subjective determination; neither side can claim science on its side with regard to personhood. Singer is perfectly rational when he says that personhood begins with higher cognition and does not object to infanticide. Similarly, it is rational to assign personhood at the point in which human life begins (in the sense of a distinct genetic entity with DNA completely unique viz-a-viz it's parents comes into existence). Personhood is not a biological determination. It is basically a tautology once we've determined of what personhood consists.

I submit for your consideration that it is disingenuous (or if you prefer a form of equivocation) to talk about human skin cells as if they are the same as a human embryo. Yes, both are human cells. However, it is precisely the fact that the embryo is already a member of the species of homo sapien with a completely distinct genetic identity that makes the topic contentious. A skin cell, in contrast, has no such separate genetic identity nor will it develop a heartbeat within three weeks in a woman's uterus. To compare the two is to attempt to argue by inapposite analogy; an old debater's trick.

Should nor Richard Cohen also have to explain why promotion of sexual abstinence is strictly a religious position?

Should nor Richard Cohen also have to explain why promotion of sexual abstinence is strictly a religious position?"

Can you supply a non-theistic, rational reason to support such a clearly failed system of sexual education and promotion?

John B. claims: "A skin cell, in contrast, has no such separate genetic identity nor will it develop a heartbeat within three weeks in a woman's uterus."

Of course a skin cell has a separate genetic identity, chuckles. Watch any CSI episode and triple your scientific intelligence. You'll be glad you did.

As for what an embryo would develop, some develop and many do not. That's the actual truth, undiluted by whatever religious or political pollution you're bringing to this debate.

I just really can't believe that John B could claim skin cells have no distinct DNA and still think he's capable of speaking on behalf of science. I look forward to the cookie debate next week where he talks about the elves and the hollow tree and the excellence of their bakery.

"the reason they oppose embryonic stem cell research is because they think embryos have souls."

TR: Possibly, but there is other possibilities involved.

I know of a Pro-Choice Swiss theologian who opposed embryonic stem cell research. Her position was that if it's not in the woman's body it is irrelevant to her autonomy as a woman and so the main issue becomes experimenting on human life. As it has not granted permission to be experimented on this is opening the door for unethical violations.

I know others who are indifferent on embryonic stem-cell research in itself, but oppose it being funded by the government. Their idea being they do not know if it is or is not immoral, but as long as a significant percent feel it is immoral it should not be funded by tax dollars. (This is similar to arguments against the NEA or maybe even NASA for that matter)

I know of religious people who think that as these embryos will likely be destroyed anyway it's not meaningful on the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice. Some who take that position support it, provided none are created in order to be experimented on. Others who take that position still oppose it because they feel it is unethical to experiment on a person without their permission. (I presume they have to get the mother's permission, but if not that would add another layer)

Moe - I think you missed the point, maybe not accidentally, that the skin cell analogy is useful as a rhetorical device, but it does not address the issue under dispute which concerns precisely the way that skin cells are different than embryos. A skin cell does not have distinct genetic sequencing from the individual; that's why it's useful on CSI, and why skin cells will be more useful for research because there are not as many concerns about rejection because the tissue has the same DNA. The DNA of the embryo, by contrast would not identify the same person as the killer on your favorite tv show. Embryos half the time even have a different gender which is certainly not a general characteristic of stem cells. Of course many embryos die; everything and everyone dies; the question is do we choose to destroy them.

Thomas R - Of course people can have reservations about embryonic stem cell resarch for any number of reasons or only object to the government funding it. In a short blog paragraph generalizations are an unfortunate necessity. I should have probably said 'most'.

Must I remind people that embryonic stem cell research is completely illegal in Germany. Not deprived of “federal funds” or limited to private research; but completely illegal to pursue research on embryonic stem cells.

Why Germany???

Bad,

What science says is that embryos are human life... in exactly the same way that a discarded skin cell is human life, no more, no less. i.e. they are cells which contain homo sapien DNA. The question of whether an embryo, which are cells executing the start of a particular genetic program to build a fetus out of the raw materials they consume from a uterine wall, are yet is a human person is not a question for which science has any answer.

The embryo doesn't "build" the fetus - it becomes the fetus (and the newborn, and the adolescent, and the adult, and the senior citizen, provided death does not intervene along the way). The skin cell is not a complete, whole, organism - an embryo is. The person that is "Bad" was once an embryo, but s/he was never a skin (somatic) cell. You are correct that science cannot supply a definition of personhood - the question is whether personhood is intrinsic to being human, or depends on some characteristic obtained by some human beings but not others.


Consumatopia,

Living things of greater complexity than new embryos are destroyed with every with every fly we swat. If one believes that human life and our 46 chromosomes are everything and non-human life is nothing, then ESCR must stop and animal research can continue. But if you don't believe that, it need not be because you haven't thought about things enough.

One needs to defend the proposition that "complexity" is the relevant criteria for determining moral worth, and not simply assume it.

Human life does not have to be "everything", and non-human life "nothing". We allow that human life can legitimately be taken in particular circumstances, and we don't typically hold that it is OK to do whatever one wants with non-human lives (c.f. Michael Vick). The question is whether the basis for human rights (which other humans have a duty to respect) is inherent to being a human or is dependent upon having obtained particular characteristics or abilities.

On the other hand, one can find *something* uncomfortable about any "technological power" if one thinks hard enough.

Does this mean that we don't have a responsibility to think through the moral and ethical implications of technology in general or of specific technologies in particular?

Fitz asks: "Why Germany???"

It's also illegal in Italy, Austria, and Portugal - three of the old hardline Catholic fascist countries. I guess some old habits are hard to break.

After all, Hitler was pro-life, too. You could look it up.

Hmmm... "pro-life," yet pro-aggressive warfare and pro-torture and given to nationalistic thumpings about an entire religious group... who does that sound like?

This is, simply put, BS. What science says is that embryos are human life... in exactly the same way that a discarded skin cell is human life, no more, no less. i.e. they are cells which contain homo sapien DNA.

This is basically right. Actually, science draws some distinctions between skin cells and embryos, in that one can develop into a human being and one can't. (If it becomes possible at some point to develop a human being out of a skin cell, science will drop this distinction.)

But here's the thing. When the religious right says that science backs up their position about life beginning at conception, they either don't know what they are talking about or are lying. Science can tell you all the steps that are necessary to get to a naturally conceieved human being, but science does not take a position on the relative importance of those steps. They are all important.

Further, science takes no position on personhood, i.e., when a rights bearing individual is generated.

Finally, it's not as if religious zealots actually care what scientists said. If the world's scientific consensus announced tomorrow that life did not begin at conception, it would be denounced as a bunch of liberals.

"This is basically right. Actually, science draws some distinctions between skin cells and embryos, in that one can develop into a human being and one can't"

Dilian Esper Elides again!

Intellectually dishonesty is a halmark of weak argumentation.

One is a being that is human and developing and one is not!

Science tells us that an embryo is a developing human life.

Fitz writes: "One is a being that is human and developing and one is not!

Science tells us that an embryo is a developing human life. "

It is if it's in a uterus. If it's frozen it's not a developing anything.

It's amazing that I have to point this sort of thing out to a putative developed human.

Moe,

If you were frozen, you would stop developing too....

One needs to defend the proposition that "complexity" is the relevant criteria for determining moral worth, and not simply assume it.

You misunderstood my comment--you do indeed have to defend complexity as the relevant criteria. But anyone who says that complexity can be dismissed as a sign of not having thought about things enough is simply being absurd--bright people spend their entire lives thinking about this and come to that very obvious conclusion. I was not defending the assumption so much as citing it as defensible which surely you'd have to concede.

However, lets be clear, here--it is the most obvious assumption. It is far more obvious than assuming that independently living things with DNA sequences matching the 3 billion base pairs of the homo sapiens genome are morally significant, those not matching it are morally insignificant. The latter assumption--though not directly falsified by scientific fact--is arbitrary and unparsimonius. It's not a matter of contradicting the science involved, it's a matter of the conclusions you reach not having very much to do with the science--you changed your ethical premises to reach the conclusion already decided upon. And I don't mean the science of fetal development, I mean the science of life in general. Though at one time centuries ago it seemed reasonable to have two distinct moral theories for animals and humans, that time is long since passed.

Human life does not have to be "everything", and non-human life "nothing".

If you want to permit animal testing but not embryonic testing, yeah, it kind of does.

We allow that human life can legitimately be taken in particular circumstances, and we don't typically hold that it is OK to do whatever one wants with non-human lives (c.f. Michael Vick).

Yeah, our treatment of animals in general seems completely hypocritical and arbitrary. Because the pro-life movement wishes to make such razor-sharp distinctions on life issues, such hypocrisy and arbitrariness seems fatal to their arguments.

The question is whether the basis for human rights (which other humans have a duty to respect) is inherent to being a human or is dependent upon having obtained particular characteristics or abilities.

Being human is just a matter of DNA codes. There isn't something inherent about those billions of codes that is sacred--the only reason human DNA is of interest is that it creates something with particular characteristics and abilities--characteristics and abilities that other animals will also possess in varying amounts. Treating all born humans equally does not require us to become Jainists who refuse to destroy micro-organisms, nor does it require us to worship our particular set of base pairs.

One set of principles--among many--accomplishing this would be the following--each animal species gets a level respect corresponding to it's complexity by some measure. All born members receive respect appropriate for their species. Individual animals still in eggs or wombs--where the phenotypes of animals distinguish themselves from one another--receive respect equivalent to that of born animals matching their current complexity. (Under this calculus, we are almost certainly providing too little protection to both adult animals and late term human fetuses, given any reasonable measure of complexity.)

This starts from premise that equality is so important because of the great diversity of assessments of quality, and value--we would never be able to agree on precisely what qualities define a life worth living, and the temptation to abuse the system to give ourselves all rights and our foes none is too great. Thus, intra-species equality. However, though we all have different measures, we all ought to be able to agree that they start from zero--that single-cells and things close to them are insignificant relative to the born.

"Finally, it's not as if religious zealots actually care what scientists said. If the world's scientific consensus announced tomorrow that life did not begin at conception, it would be denounced as a bunch of liberals." Dilan

Dilan, you are in danger of self-parody. You have an unfalsifiable hypothesis about the beliefs of the 'religious zealots' who oppose stem cell research that cannot be contradicted by what they actually believe. Isn't that the type of error you are accusing them of viz-a-viz embroyonic life. 'I've made up my mind, don't bother me with the facts' neatly sums up your statement above.

Science tells us that an embryo is a developing human life.

Really? Does science tell us that a catarpillar is a developing butterfly?

Dilan, you are in danger of self-parody. You have an unfalsifiable hypothesis about the beliefs of the 'religious zealots' who oppose stem cell research that cannot be contradicted by what they actually believe. Isn't that the type of error you are accusing them of viz-a-viz embroyonic life. 'I've made up my mind, don't bother me with the facts' neatly sums up your statement above.

Bob, if you think there is no evidence for this, why don't you look at the global warming and Terri Schiavo debates. In each case, there was/is an overwhelming scientific consensus, and the religious right denounced it.

Dilan,

The point still stands with regard to ESCR. You said religious conservatives beliefs were not affected by the scientific evidence, evidence was brought in, you maintained your initial accusations with a snear. You would have to clarify for me what you mean with Terri Sciavo and global warming. As far as I can tell, the 'religious right's' response (as opposed to the right generally) to global warming has been varied. The Pope certainly treats it as an issue worthy of concern and numerous evangelical groups have said that it is an issue of importance.

As to Terri Schiavo, you'll have to remind me of the science textbook that declares authoritatively what the ethical response to end-of-life issues is; ethical principles are not determined by empirical observation.

"Though at one time centuries ago it seemed reasonable to have two distinct moral theories for animals and humans, that time is long since passed."

Consumatopia, it just depends on your presuppositions. Certainly the ethical inclinations of the United States and every country in the world as embodied in their legal systems suggests that many people find it in fact quite reasonable to have different laws governing the treatment of elephants (larger, more complex) and humans. I suppose that what was reasonable for people to hold on Monday could be unreasonable on Tuesday, but I don't think the expiration date of this particular belief has been reached. After all, we are making arbitrary distinctions here. You value complexity; I value the capacity reason and membership in the species homo sapien generally. Based on those value judgments we will reach different conclusions; whether it's monday or tuesday doesn't seem relevant to me.

"However, though we all have different measures, we all ought to be able to agree that they start from zero--that single-cells and things close to them are insignificant relative to the born."

Again, as you note it's just a matter of presuppositions. Science simply provides us with data; complexity as you note is one way to approach the problem of converting data to ethical guidelines, but it seems rather ridiculous to me. After all, humans themselves are rather insignificant in terms of the vastness of the universe and rather late comers even on our own planet; why bother to phrase ethical guidelines at all for creatures so insignificant by empirical criteria? Granted, you may think my ethical presuppositions are ridiculous also, but they at least avoid the vulgarity of equating numbers of cells or DNA codes with some sort of ethical obligations.

Dilan,

Utterly ridiculous. One's position on abortion need have nothing to do with one's position on global warming. The countries probably most concerned about global warming (because their countries are at risk of being obliterated) include conservative Muslims in the Indian Ocean islands and devout Christians in the Pacific and Carribean islands, all of whom I would assume are quite fervently opposed to abortion.

Many religious bodies like the Catholic Church, Anglican Church, etc. are quite active in the movement to try to slow the rate of global warming. I've been very fanatically concerned about global warming, and environmental destruction more generally, since I was in high school. I don't know what the evangelical response might be, since I'm not well acquainted with evangelical theology or culture generally.

As for Terri Schiavo, I disagree with the 'culture of life' people on that case and think it turned into an unfortunate circus. However, 'science' does not and cannot address the question of whether it's ever OK to take someone off a feeding tube. Science can prove fairly conclusively that that person will never recover, and that their higher brain centers are essentially gone, but they can't address the moral question of whether
it's OK to end their life. I believe it is, you probably do too, but that's not a question of science, it's a question of moral philosphy.


John B.,

Of course we ought to have two distinct sets of moral theories for animals and humans. At least until we have strong reason to believe that one or two other species are possessed of the capacity for rational thought, empathy, moral reflection, spiritual experience, etc. in other words, an immaterial soul.

Larry reminds me: "If you were frozen, you would stop developing too...."

That's certainly true.

And I haven't been inside of a uterus in decades... not that I haven't been trying.

Hector writes: "One's position on abortion need have nothing to do with one's position on global warming."

That's certainly true, Hector, but the group-think of "movement conservatives" in this country has led to this sort of conflation. They almost always agree on everything.

"However, 'science' does not and cannot address the question of whether it's ever OK to take someone off a feeding tube. Science can prove fairly conclusively that that person will never recover, and that their higher brain centers are essentially gone, but they can't address the moral question of whether
it's OK to end their life. I believe it is, you probably do too, but that's not a question of science, it's a question of moral philosphy."

In the Schiavo case it was a question of political expediency. Tom DeLay took his own father off of life support but moved (pardon the expression) heaven and Earth to stop Schiavo's husband from doing the same.

The subsequent autopsy showed the poor woman's brain was mush. Noted entrailologist Bill Frist never apologized for his asinine video diagnosis.

We've been back and forth on many issues here, Hector, and I'd say our basic moralities are much closer to each other than yours is to that of the Frists and the DeLays. I think that illustrates that morality is quite distinct from religion.

John B, your reasoning is flawed in a number of ways, but I'll present a few highlights.

Certainly the ethical inclinations of the United States and every country in the world as embodied in their legal systems suggests that many people find it in fact quite reasonable to have different laws governing the treatment of elephants (larger, more complex) and humans.

This is flawed thinking in a number of ways--the vast majority of countries have different laws regarding fetuses and born humans (none punishes abortion as strictly as infanticide). Different laws are not the problem--you can come up with different laws, but they have to procede from the same moral system. It is true that our outdated legal systems are inconsistent across all countries--the problems is the lack of any consistent, reasonable framework that applies to both animals and humans that would lead to anti-abortion policy conclusions.

Your view of the relationship between ethical presuppositions, facts, ethical conclusions seems flawed. The presuppositions should not change with the facts, but the conclusions should. The problem with the pro-life community is that they get that backwards--they change the presuppositions in order to make sure the same conclusions are reached from new data. This makes their presuppositions become arbitrary and unparsimonius.

I suppose that what was reasonable for people to hold on Monday could be unreasonable on Tuesday, but I don't think the expiration date of this particular belief has been reached. After all, we are making arbitrary distinctions here. You value complexity; I value the capacity reason and membership in the species homo sapien generally.

Your statements of our points of views are flawed here--you need to move reason capacity to my side. All you have is membership in homo sapiens. What makes your viewpoint more arbitrary than mine is that homo sapiens has been known throughout the past century to be in the same continuum of life as all other animals. I value complexity and reasoning capacity (synonyms, really), you value something like the Hamming distance from a particular set of six billion base pairs. That precise code of six billion is the unparsimonius nature of your presupposition.

Again, as you note it's just a matter of presuppositions. Science simply provides us with data; complexity as you note is one way to approach the problem of converting data to ethical guidelines, but it seems rather ridiculous to me. After all, humans themselves are rather insignificant in terms of the vastness of the universe and rather late comers even on our own planet; why bother to phrase ethical guidelines at all for creatures so insignificant by empirical criteria?

Because we are human-scale creatures who evaluate our actions on human-scales. Your observation about the insignificance of human life might be interesting in a theodicy argument in which we're evaluating ethics on a Universe-sized scale, though.

Granted, you may think my ethical presuppositions are ridiculous also, but they at least avoid the vulgarity of equating numbers of cells or DNA codes with some sort of ethical obligations.

Er, no, my views avoid that vulgarity. My views would apply to non-carbon based life that has no DNA whatsoever. It is your views that are vulgar in that sense--the only thing distinguishing homo sapiens fertilized eggs from other fertilized eggs is our particular set of DNA.

Consumatopia,

And I don't mean the science of fetal development, I mean the science of life in general. Though at one time centuries ago it seemed reasonable to have two distinct moral theories for animals and humans, that time is long since passed.

What is the basis for this change in reasonableness vis-à-vis the relative moral worth of animals and humans?

[Me] Human life does not have to be "everything", and non-human life "nothing".

[You]If you want to permit animal testing but not embryonic testing, yeah, it kind of does.

If human life were truly to be “everything”, then we would have extremely strict punishments for destroying embryos, such as life in prison or a death penalty. Likewise, if non-human life were truly “nothing”, then we would have no penalties for being cruel to animals.

[Me]We allow that human life can legitimately be taken in particular circumstances, and we don't typically hold that it is OK to do whatever one wants with non-human lives (c.f. Michael Vick).

[You]Yeah, our treatment of animals in general seems completely hypocritical and arbitrary. Because the pro-life movement wishes to make such razor-sharp distinctions on life issues, such hypocrisy and arbitrariness seems fatal to their arguments.

I have no clue what you’re talking about here. It would seem that our treatment of animals in general is only hypocritical and/or arbitrary on your understanding of moral laws. But most people don’t hold to your understanding, and thus cannot be considered hypocritical. What is an example of a “razor-sharp” distinction on life issues?

[Me]The question is whether the basis for human rights (which other humans have a duty to respect) is inherent to being a human or is dependent upon having obtained particular characteristics or abilities.

[You]Being human is just a matter of DNA codes. There isn't something inherent about those billions of codes that is sacred--the only reason human DNA is of interest is that it creates something with particular characteristics and abilities--characteristics and abilities that other animals will also possess in varying amounts. Treating all born humans equally does not require us to become Jainists who refuse to destroy micro-organisms, nor does it require us to worship our particular set of base pairs.

If being human is “just” a matter of DNA codes, why should we care about human rights in the first place? And if the relevant criteria is particular characteristics and abilities, does that mean it is OK to kill human beings who lack those characteristics and abilities? What animals possess the capacity for moral reasoning?

[You]One set of principles--among many--accomplishing this would be the following--each animal species gets a level respect corresponding to it's complexity by some measure. All born members receive respect appropriate for their species. Individual animals still in eggs or wombs--where the phenotypes of animals distinguish themselves from one another--receive respect equivalent to that of born animals matching their current complexity. (Under this calculus, we are almost certainly providing too little protection to both adult animals and late term human fetuses, given any reasonable measure of complexity.)

This is not a “set of principles”, it is a simple assertion on your part. You’ve given no reasons why this is a reasonable moral regime, and no reasons to support it over any other.

[You]This starts from premise that equality is so important because of the great diversity of assessments of quality, and value--we would never be able to agree on precisely what qualities define a life worth living, and the temptation to abuse the system to give ourselves all rights and our foes none is too great. Thus, intra-species equality. However, though we all have different measures, we all ought to be able to agree that they start from zero--that single-cells and things close to them are insignificant relative to the born.
So because there is a variety of assessments of moral worth, we should give priority to one particular way of assessing moral worth (equality)? You’re again simply making assertions without providing any reasons to support them. And you haven’t even specified what you mean by equality – equality of what? How are you going to define complexity? Etc. (For example, bacteria can act alone or in concert with other bacteria: a biofilm is a more complex system than a single bacterium. Does that mean that a biofilm has more moral worth than a single bacterium?)

You seem now to be arguing that size is a relevant criteria for determining moral worth, rather than complexity, since it would seem reasonable to presume that a human zygote is more complex than a bacteria, or amoeba, or yeast cell. I do not agree that a human embryo (or zygote) is of equal worth to a) an adult human cell, b) a microorganism, or c) an adult animal. Explain to me why I’m wrong to disagree with you.

Mike S., none of your objections are intellectually serious.

What is the basis for this change in reasonableness vis-à-vis the relative moral worth of animals and humans?

It's not a change in the relative worth--you can place them in different place on the scale, but you must place them on the same scale.

The change would be that humans are just one particular animal--the Cartesian separation of humans with minds from animals without is invalidated--whatever it is that makes humans valuable is also possessed by animals in varying degrees--unless, that is, all you care about is adherence to one particularly set of base pairs.

[Me] Human life does not have to be "everything", and non-human life "nothing".

[You]If you want to permit animal testing but not embryonic testing, yeah, it kind of does.

If human life were truly to be “everything”, then we would have extremely strict punishments for destroying embryos, such as life in prison or a death penalty.

If all human life were equal, then we would indeed have those things. That pro-lifers don't want that is an inconsistency on their part that I brought up above. If you want to permit animal testing but not embryonic testing, human life has to be "everything", and non-human life "nothing".

Likewise, if non-human life were truly “nothing”, then we would have no penalties for being cruel to animals.

Laws with regard to animals are simply arbitrary reflections of convenience and power right now.

It would seem that our treatment of animals in general is only hypocritical and/or arbitrary on your understanding of moral laws.

It's hypocritical by every reasonable standard--it's considered wrong to do things with animals the majority finds unappealing, but perfectly okay to do things with them that are vastly more cruel, like factory farming.

If being human is “just” a matter of DNA codes,

First of all, that's just fact. Being a member of homo sapiens is defined as having the right set of DNA codes. That's all it means.

why should we care about human rights in the first place?

Good question. One you need to answer.

And if the relevant criteria is particular characteristics and abilities, does that mean it is OK to kill human beings who lack those characteristics and abilities?

I explained in great detail why it would not be.

What animals possess the capacity for moral reasoning?

Lots of humans lack that capacity. Indeed, you may behave morally, but your actually reasoning ability in morality is not impressing at all.

This is not a “set of principles”, it is a simple assertion on your part.

Right, I asserted the principles.

You’ve given no reasons why this is a reasonable moral regime, and no reasons to support it over any other.

Nonsense. The reasons backing it up came immediately afterward, as you quoted.

This starts from premise that equality is so important because of the great diversity of assessments of quality, and value--we would never be able to agree on precisely what qualities define a life worth living, and the temptation to abuse the system to give ourselves all rights and our foes none is too great. Thus, intra-species equality. However, though we all have different measures, we all ought to be able to agree that they start from zero--that single-cells and things close to them are insignificant relative to the born.

So because there is a variety of assessments of moral worth, we should give priority to one particular way of assessing moral worth (equality)?

Equality is the mechanism of negotiating between many different assessments of moral worth.

You’re again simply making assertions without providing any reasons to support them.

In some cases the reasons are so obvious that they need not be explicitly stated.

And you haven’t even specified what you mean by equality – equality of what?

To reiterate: intra-species (not interspecies!) equality of rights. I didn't spend much time defending that principle because it seems like one that pro-lifers should accept. I've got three principles here

A and B aren't the ones I'd expect you to complain about

How are you going to define complexity? Etc. (For example, bacteria can act alone or in concert with other bacteria: a biofilm is a more complex system than a single bacterium. Does that mean that a biofilm has more moral worth than a single bacterium?)

Probably, though neither is very high. Certainly the biofilm would rank above the newly fertilized human egg, though all would rank so low as to be lost in statistical noise.

You seem now to be arguing that size is a relevant criteria for determining moral worth, rather than complexity,

No, though size is associated with complexity--bigger things will tend to be more complex because of scaling issues (a single cell can only be so big.)

since it would seem reasonable to presume that a human zygote is more complex than a bacteria, or amoeba, or yeast cell.

Not necessarily--because they reproduce so much faster, their DNA is arguably more evolved than our DNA.

I do not agree that a human embryo (or zygote) is of equal worth to a) an adult human cell, b) a microorganism, or c) an adult animal. Explain to me why I’m wrong to disagree with you.

I can't prove you wrong, and never said that I could , but it would appear that you've decided upon that conclusion first and then chosen your premises later to reach that conclusion. Especially C. Because DNA is the only thing separating the zygote from C, and human DNA is 3 billion base pairs, you essentially need to reference the entire human genome as a premise of your argument (that's what "human" means). That's extremely unparsimonius.

I've got three principles here

A and B aren't the ones I'd expect you to complain about

I forgot the label the principles:

A) Each animal species gets respect according to complexity.
B) Each member of the species gets the full respect of it's species complexity.
C) Members still in eggs or wombs only get respect according to the amount of complexity they've achieved thus far in development.

Like I said, A and B aren't the ones I'd expect objections too. It's C that is in question, but it seems reasonable given that fetal development is where the phenotypes of animals distinguish themselves.

Consum

"Your view of the relationship between ethical presuppositions, facts, ethical conclusions seems flawed. The presuppositions should not change with the facts, but the conclusions should. The problem with the pro-life community is that they get that backwards--they change the presuppositions in order to make sure the same conclusions are reached from new data. This makes their presuppositions become arbitrary and unparsimonius."

This is bluster without support. How have pro-lifers 'changed their presuppositions based on the facts'? Moreover, how on earth did I do so by observing that legal systems provide at least prima facie support to the idea that people believe it is reasonable to have different ethical systems for humans and animals?

"Your statements of our points of views are flawed here--you need to move reason capacity to my side. All you have is membership in homo sapiens. What makes your viewpoint more arbitrary than mine is that homo sapiens has been known throughout the past century to be in the same continuum of life as all other animals. I value complexity and reasoning capacity (synonyms, really), you value something like the Hamming distance from a particular set of six billion base pairs. That precise code of six billion is the unparsimonius nature of your presupposition."

Well, I think it's been a little longer than a century, and since I expressly stated that I value reason, I'm not sure you get to decide my presuppositions are different than I have stated them. Once again this is just bluster...I'm waiting for an argument.

"Because we are human-scale creatures who evaluate our actions on human-scales. Your observation about the insignificance of human life might be interesting in a theodicy argument in which we're evaluating ethics on a Universe-sized scale, though."

Ok, so an embryo's physical insignicance to a human is to be admitted as evidence that we can treat them any way we like. However, a person's insignificance in the universe as a whole doesn't have any moral implications? It seems like size jumps in and out of the presuppositions expressed above depending on the authors conclusions.

This is bluster without support.

I gave you plenty of support. It just went over your head. I'll try again.


How have pro-lifers 'changed their presuppositions based on the facts'?

Well, current definitions of human are based entirely on the particular sequence of DNA we have--stuff that wasn't known all that long ago. When human cognition was seen as different in kind from animal cognition--as far apart as mind and matter in Descartes's view--it was sensible for there to be an absolute black and white divide between the two sets of creatures. Now that we know this is bunk, pro-lifers switch to DNA--the only thing dividing a human zygote from a chimp zygote.

Moreover, how on earth did I do so by observing that legal systems provide at least prima facie support to the idea that people believe it is reasonable to have different ethical systems for humans and animals?

You didn't. That's nonsense for other reasons, explained above.

Well, I think it's been a little longer than a century, and since I expressly stated that I value reason, I'm not sure you get to decide my presuppositions are different than I have stated them.

Because you can't get to your conclusion from that premise. The zygote has no capacity for reason. The only premise remaining that would reach pro-life conclusions is the magical sacredness of our particular DNA code.

"Because we are human-scale creatures who evaluate our actions on human-scales. Your observation about the insignificance of human life might be interesting in a theodicy argument in which we're evaluating ethics on a Universe-sized scale, though."

Ok, so an embryo's physical insignicance to a human is to be admitted as evidence that we can treat them any way we like. However, a person's insignificance in the universe as a whole doesn't have any moral implications?

You are definitely way too dense for me to continue this. The person's insignificance in the universe as a whole would only be relevant if you needed to weight the person against some sort of universe-sized entity.

It seems like size jumps in and out of the presuppositions expressed above depending on the authors conclusions.

Entity A's relative complexity relative to Entity B becomes relevant in evaluating any claim that B must respect A's rights. The complexity of C relative to those A and B has no bearing that claim. The person jumping in and out of presuppositions would be you.

"Well, current definitions of human are based entirely on the particular sequence of DNA we have--stuff that wasn't known all that long ago. When human cognition was seen as different in kind from animal cognition--as far apart as mind and matter in Descartes's view--it was sensible for there to be an absolute black and white divide between the two sets of creatures. Now that we know this is bunk, pro-lifers switch to DNA--the only thing dividing a human zygote from a chimp zygote."

Consum, that argument has nothing to do with being pro-life. The pro-life presupposition is as follows 1) Human life should not be destroyed without serious reason (e.g. self-defense). This is combined with the fact that 2) Human embryos are human life (as science tells us). I guess most pro-lifers may believe that animals and humans should have different ethical obligations, but then as noted above most people believe that as reflected in their legal systems.

"Entity A's relative complexity relative to Entity B becomes relevant in evaluating any claim that B must respect A's rights. The complexity of C relative to those A and B has no bearing that claim. The person jumping in and out of presuppositions would be you."

Well, you still haven't pointed to a presupposition that I've jumped in and out of; you're argument about 'pro-lifers' changing presuppositions about human life because of the differences between humans and animals is rather bizarre. I guess your complexity argument has a certain intrinsic rationality. Fifteen year olds are more valuable than ten year olds who are more valuable than five year olds, who are more valuable than one year olds, who are more valuable than new borns, who (in some but not all cases because of children born prematurely) are more valuble than children in utero...the more cells the merrier I guess. Now how does the priority go with regard to animals? Are horses more valuable than dogs, or vice versa; and about monkeys - they are kind of small but they show pretty high levels of cognitive development? If there was a creature more complex than humans, they would have greater rights. I just don't see why lines of DNA code (or more cells) provide a creature more rights.

1) Human life should not be destroyed without serious reason (e.g. self-defense).

As soon as you use the word "human", you're trying to slip under the door all of the baggage I keep talking about. "Human" just means "organism closely matching the following 3 billion base pairs: GATCAATGAGGTGGACACCAGAGGCGGGGA...".

Thus the unparsimonius nature of your premises. Essentially, embedding the word "human" in the premises automatically changes the premises in response to scientific changes in the term human.

Most people believe researching stem cells is A-OK. It does no good to just refer to what most people believe.

Well, you still haven't pointed to a presupposition that I've jumped in and out of;

I did, but in that particular instance I was referring to your argument about the complexity of the universe.

you're argument about 'pro-lifers' changing presuppositions about human life because of the differences between humans and animals is rather bizarre.

Your view that rights derive from DNA matching is what I find bizarre.

I guess your complexity argument has a certain intrinsic rationality. Fifteen year olds are more valuable than ten year olds who are more valuable than five year olds, who are more valuable than one year olds, who are more valuable than new borns, who (in some but not all cases because of children born prematurely) are more valuble than children in utero...the more cells the merrier I guess.

Or you could just read where I derived intra-species equality from the difficulty of making complexity distinctions. The different status of embryos is not just tacked on--it's a consequence of the cross-species similarity of embryonic life.

Now how does the priority go with regard to animals? Are horses more valuable than dogs, or vice versa; and about monkeys - they are kind of small but they show pretty high levels of cognitive development?

These are interesting academic questions, but the protections offered to horses, dogs, and monkeys are currently so minimal that it's of little practical importance.

If there was a creature more complex than humans, they would have greater rights.

Possibly, but it's also reasonable to claim that rights just top out after a certain point. Either view would be defensible.

I just don't see why lines of DNA code ... provide a creature more rights.

Nor do I--that's why I don't think human zygotes have significant rights.

or more cells

if you want a moral system that distinguishes humans from common insects without saying "just because!", order of adaptive complexity seems like a good start.

As to Terri Schiavo, you'll have to remind me of the science textbook that declares authoritatively what the ethical response to end-of-life issues is; ethical principles are not determined by empirical observation.

Bob, science told us that she had no measurable brain activity, that her movements were random and were not a response to stimuli, and that she had no chance of getting better. This was established over and over again by consensus scientific opinion and proven to the satisfaction of the Florida courts

The religious right nonetheless dismissed all the science and claimed that she was responding to her blood relatives, and that she could recover.

After she died, the autopsy showed without a doubt the scientists were right.

So spare me the BS that the American religious right gives a crap about what science says. (I didn't, by the way, even bring up the obvious example of evolution.)

However, 'science' does not and cannot address the question of whether it's ever OK to take someone off a feeding tube.

Hector, see my post above. The anti-science thing wasn't the argument about the morality of taking her off the tube (though actually science has more to say on that one than you admit, due to the fact that this depends on the nature of consciousness), it was the emperical claims about her illness. Scientific consensus was clear, and the religious right convinced itself that the scientists were just a bunch of lying liberals.

Dilan,

Bill Frist is a nasty hypocrite, obviously. But there were more sincere people than Mr. Frist who didn't make absurd claims about Schiavo being responsive, etc.

The doctors demonstrated that Terri Schiavo lacked higher brain activity. But that doesn't really prove anything about the status of her soul or her consciousness; all it proves is that her consciousness was (possibly) no longer linked to her body. As long as you agree that the soul is ultimately intangible and immaterial- and rational thought depends on that premise- the status of her brain is kind of irrelevant to the status of her soul- all it means is that she wouldn't be talking, walking, sensing, or in any way interacting with the outside world.

By the way, I agree with you that they should probably have taken her off the feeding tube. But that's because I, personally, wouldn't want to live like that- it's certainly not a matter of 'science'.

There wasn't a legal document or recorded statement on her position on the matter. The majority of her relatives apparently favored her living. For me it didn't matter if she was functionally a potato, you shouldn't cut feeding tubes without a clear pronouncement of the patient's desires. Sometimes rules can lead to odd situations, but are still there for a reason. In this case to protect the rights of a patient. Even if Michael Schiavo was right for me he was still wrong. Because it became a situation that came close to stating that when legal documents are lacking a woman essentially becomes her husband's property. She lives or dies based on his interpretation of her desires. I found that disturbing, even if it's applied equally to both genders. (Meaning the husband can be the wife's property to do with as she sees fit)

It's just a shame they couldn't have come to some agreement amongst themselves and not brought the courts into it. I'd rather cases like this, where there is no legal document on the patient's views, be handle "in family" as much as possible.

Re: Thomas R's comment at 1:40 -

What a load of disingenuous crap - pretending to be a feminist in order to bolster a revolting argument!

Thomas R doesn't want the Husk Formerly Known As Terri Schiavo to be the "property" of her husband - he wants it to revert to the custody of her parents, who wanted her to stay "alive" as a plaything for the likes of Randall Terry and the disgusting Frist/DeLay gang. On what basis do the parents of an adult woman regain this sort of decision-making power on her behalf? And what "agreement" with the parents would have been acceptable to the right, other than capitulation?

That the eventual autopsy showed that Terri Schiavo no longer existed and that the unplugging of her Husk was the decent thing to do doesn't matter to the ideologues. The only thing that did was pursuing their end goal - which, as always, is telling other people what to do and when to do it.

Bill Frist is a nasty hypocrite, obviously. But there were more sincere people than Mr. Frist who didn't make absurd claims about Schiavo being responsive, etc.

It wasn't just Bill Frist, Hector. It was Sean Hannity. Randall Terry. I am sure there were others.

The Republicans were even distributing talking points on the floor of the Senate about how it was possible to recover from Schiavo's condition.

The point is, there are a lot of people in the religious right who don't give a crap about what science is telling us. (As I said in an aside, doesn't the evolution debate demonstrate this conclusively?) Then, suddenly, we are supposed to believe that the embryonic stem-cell debate is all about what SCIENTISTS tell us, rather than what the religious right believes God mandates.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Look, guys. I'm a working scientist. We're useful, but both sides here are giving way too much attention to doing what scientists tell us, given the semi-random lurchings of science in the short term. For example, sure there's a consensus on some degree of man-made global warming; there's no consensus at all, even if you extend to include economists as scientists, on the cost-benefit analysis, or even (at a detailed level) the probabilities of various more catastrophic results.

It's a bit weird to claim there's no scientific impact on the religious thinking -- the elevation of abortion as a concern to Catholics at least partly follows the biology. Aquinas was not in favor of abortion, precisely, but did not think about it as modern Catholic moral thinkers do, precisely because of a faulty Aristotelean embryology.

As long as you agree that the soul is ultimately intangible and immaterial- and rational thought depends on that premise-

No it doesn't.

the status of her brain is kind of irrelevant to the status of her soul- all it means is that she wouldn't be talking, walking, sensing, or in any way interacting with the outside world.

See--it's not embryonic science that Catholicism has a problem with. It just seems to be in complete denial that brains and neural consciousness are what make human beings what they are. And there are no semi-random lurchings here--no brains, no mammalian consciousness, period, end of story.

It just seems to be in complete denial that brains and neural consciousness are what make human beings what they are.

Oh, but what ARE they? That's not a scientific statement (brains are required for most activity -- fine, agreed -- but note that embryos don't have much brain activity as you might know), but a more metaphysical point, which science will be hard-pressed to answer. It is not clear to me that "mammalian consciousness" is the only trait we might consider in asking "what makes human beings worthy of respect." At the very least, the potential for that consciousness, rather than its presence at any given moment is the interesting point. In other words, I'm not sure how science can tell us the answer to Psalm 8:4.

On Schiavo, part of the issue is that it looked like there was less consensus than there (eventually) was, and it wasn't as if massive teams of scientists had examined her during the case (had they?) Other cases in various places had shown that the diagnosis of PVS could be problematic.

It is not clear to me that "mammalian consciousness" is the only trait we might consider in asking "what makes human beings worthy of respect."

Assuming that humans get a special level of respect other animals do not, it could hardly be clearer. There are other traits that divide humans from other animals, but the metaphysics required to give weight to any of those other traits would be strange indeed.

And the division from animals offered by our brains isn't really all that black and white anyway.

We don't need to know the precise nature of consciousness here--if we want to place humans above other carbon-based terrestrial life, brains are the place to look.

At the very least, the potential for that consciousness, rather than its presence at any given moment is the interesting point.

Now this I concede is a thoroughly metaphysical argument. We would agree that potential is necessary but not that potential is sufficient.

TMoC writes: "On Schiavo, part of the issue is that it looked like there was less consensus than there (eventually) was, and it wasn't as if massive teams of scientists had examined her during the case (had they?)"

This pure nonsense. She was examined up the wazoo. (Well, you know what I mean.) There was no credible evidence arguing against her PVS status, and there was considerable evidence that her brain was irreparably damaged. No one was home. For laughs, look up the dirty details on William Hammesfahr, the quack Schiavo's parents dragged into the case. (He claimed to have been a nominee for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, for instance. Uh huh. And I'm the Archbishop of Cadbury.)

Re:It just seems to be in complete denial that brains and neural consciousness are what make human beings what they are.

Well, if you expect me to believe that that is ALL that humans are, and that the soul is _nothing more than_ an epiphenomenon of the brain, then clearly I disagree. You are very thoroughly wrong here. Brains are generally, within our daily lives, required for our soul and consciousness to manifest themselves. But they are not identical with the soul, and the soul is not limited to the physical body. When Blessed Paul the Apostle, St. John of Patmos, and various other people journeyed to the heavens, their soul and life were temporarily separated from the body.

And rational thought does in fact require that our souls, minds and consciousness are ultimately not physically determined, which is another way of saying that they are not ultimately purely physical. Even Haldane, a Marxist atheist, conceded that point. If our minds are simply made up of physical processes, then ultimately they are determined, which means that we cannot speak of 'reasoning' or freely choosing between two alternative ideas, at all. Strict materialism is ultimately self-refuting.

But they are not identical with the soul, and the soul is not limited to the physical body.

It is not so much that I quibble with "soul" so much as I quibble with any definition of physical body that doesn't require a brain. Whether the soul lasts beyond the body has no ethical personhood implications--the soul is beyond our capacity to destroy. The question is which bodies we must treat with the respect of persons--bodies being the only things we have power to destroy. And the focus of that inquiry must be the brain--it is only the presence of our brains that allows our bodies to be suitable vessels for our souls.

If our minds are simply made up of physical processes, then ultimately they are determined, which means that we cannot speak of 'reasoning' or freely choosing between two alternative ideas, at all. Strict materialism is ultimately self-refuting.

Reasoning is not freely choosing. It is correctly choosing--or having some correct manner of choosing. It need only be free from deceptive influence.

You could claim that purely physical causality is inconsistent with free will (what isn't?) and qualia, but not rationality. But that's not much of a knockdown--hard core physical materialists don't seem tend to believe in free will and qualia anyway.

Actually, I don't think it's totally insurmountable, but it causes some problems for rationality defined by any "conformance with truth" criteria, as well. See the endless debates and problems with "intentionality" in cognitive science and artificial intelligence communities. Not that Searle is any good, but the underlying problems -- ascribing an "aboutness" to even a ("accidentally") always correct conformance of a sensor reading to another sensor reading is problematic.