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Mitt Romney and Faith-Based Politics

20 Nov 2007 09:47 am

Jon Chait refers to me as "brilliant" in his latest TRB, no doubt in an attempt to defang my inevitable rejoinder to his critique of "faith-based politics" - but no such luck, Chait! He begins by complaining about evangelical Christians who might not vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon:

If it were possible for a politician to sue voters for religious discrimination, Mitt Romney would have an open-and-shut case against the Republican electorate. Here is a man possessing all the known qualifications for the job of GOP presidential nominee--strong communications skills, a successful governorship, total agreement on every issue, Reaganesque hair--and yet he may well be denied it on account of his faith. In a poll released in June, 30 percent of Republicans said they'd be less likely to vote for a Mormon. One conservative televangelist dispensed with the subtlety and warned his flock,"If you vote for Mitt Romney, you are voting for Satan!" These attacks have nothing to do with how Romney would conduct himself as president. They're purely theological. Romney's critics are declaring they couldn't support Romney on the sole basis that they consider Mormonism un-Christian.

Well, first of all, polls like this one (see Table 4) suggest that Democrats are more likely than Republicans to rule out voting for a candidate on the basis of his Mormon faith. Now maybe all those anti-Mormon Democrats are African-American Baptists or working-class Catholics, but Dems with a post-grad education are more anti-Latter Day Saint than Dems with just a high school degree, which at the very least suggests that there are plenty of secular voters who wouldn't pull the lever for a Mormon. Not, presumably, because they want to establish an "only Trinitarians need apply" standard for public office in the U.S., but because they consider Mormonism weird and cultish, and they don't want a President who buys into its tenets.

Now, I think this is a mistake where the contemporary Latter-Day Saints are concerned, but I don't think it's a mistake in principle. Having no legal religious test for office doesn’t mean that a candidate's religious faith isn’t worth considering when you're deciding whom to vote for. I probably wouldn't vote for a practicing Scientologist or a member of the Unification Church, for instance, for what I hope are self-evident reasons. I'd vote for a Mormon today, but I would have thought twice about voting for a Mormon candidate in the days of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. And even where my own faith is concerned, I wouldn't have thought it unreasonable for a Protestant American to be leery of a Catholic candidate for President in the era of The Syllabus of Errors. Taking these sorts of things into account is the essence of good sense, not evidence of religious bigotry.

Chait goes on:

Unless you yearn for a Romney presidency--which I don't, particularly--the real significance here is that nobody is challenging the premise of faith-based politics. Romney could argue that his religion is unrelated to how he would conduct himself in office, as John F. Kennedy famously did in 1960. But he hasn't done so, and,by all accounts, he won't. Instead, he is defending himself on theological grounds, trying to persuade social conservatives that Mormonism is more compatible with evangelical Protestantism than they think.

This seems to be basically wrong. Romney hasn't been giving speeches about how Mormon theology is consonant with Trinitarian Christianity. Instead, he's been dodging those kind of questions, while giving speeches arguing that his religious beliefs lead him to the same policy conclusions about abortion, same-sex marriage, and so forth, that conservative Catholics and evangelicals tend to reach. He's arguing that his positions on the issues are more important than their theological underpinnings, in other words, not the other way around.

I think that even this more minimalist theology-policy connection ticks Chait off, though, since he turns quickly from Romney to the big picture - his opposition to a "faith-based politics" that seems to embrace any intrusion of religious language or arguments into a political debate. He writes:

Advocates of faith-based politics take as their premise the inverted assumption that secularism is an assault upon faith. "Secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square," admonished Barack Obama last summer. The brilliant social conservative Ross Douthat has argued in First Things that the rise of the religious right is merely "the Republican reaction against the Democrats' decision to become the first major party in American history to pander to a sizeable bloc of aggressively secular voters."

"Aggressive" is a strange adjective here, given that secularists are not known for door-to-door proselytizing or massacring members of opposing religious groups. Secular political discourse does not place religious voters or candidates at a disadvantage. It merely denies them an advantage. A religious candidate can campaign on the war in Iraq or health care or gay marriage just as easily as a secular candidate can. But a secular candidate can't run on his faith in the way a religious candidate can. ("Secular," of course, means a lack of political religiosity, rather than a lack of religious belief.) Religion-infused politics places a massive handicap on candidates and voters who are secular or subscribe to minority religions.

I'll stick with the adjective. It's possible to be "aggressive," particularly in democratic politics, without physically bludgeoning someone over the head with your copy of Letter to a Christian Nation - and calling for an entirely "secular political discourse," and accusing those who stray outside its bounds of being "theocrats" or "Christianists" or what-have-you (I’m not fingering Chait here; just his co-unbelievers), seems pretty aggressive to me. Secularists who take this tack are essentially telling their fellow citizens that their deepest convictions, which often go to precisely the sort of just-society issues that politics is supposed to reckon with, are beyond the pale of public discussion. (Fr. Neuhaus made this point rather well in the recent Economist debate on precisely this subject.) So I can make an argument for racial inequality based on Social Darwinist theory, but you may not make an argument for racial equality based on the New Testament's vision of the nature of man. I can invoke Paul Berman in support of the invasion of Iraq, but you may not bring up Stanley Hauerwas to oppose it. I can make an argument against income redistribution based on Ayn Rand's Objectivist theory, but you may not make an argument for progressive taxation based on Walter Rauschenbusch's Social Gospel. And so forth.

I'll quote Neuhaus in response:

Our political system calls for open-ended argument about all the great issues that touch upon the question “How ought we to order our life together?” ... The idea that some citizens should be excluded from addressing that question because their arguments are religious, or that others should be excluded because their arguments are nonreligious or antireligious, is an idea deeply alien to the representative democracy that this constitutional order is designed to protect. A foundational principle of that order is that all citizens have equal standing in the public square.

Chait's chief complaint seems to be that the intrusion of religious language into politics inevitably leaves secular politicians and activists at a disadvantage. And he's absolutely right - by cutting themselves from metaphysical claims, secularists come to debates over justice and fairness, political right and political wrong, with arguments that can seem thin and bloodless compared to their religious counterparts, particularly in a country with a civil religion as potent as our own. But this is their free intellectual choice: Nobody's forcing them to disbelieve in the "endowed by their Creator" part of the Declaration of Independence (which lends that document an awful lot of its oomph). And it seems a little much to argue that in order to avoid handicapping their secularist fellow citizens, religious Americans should unilaterally disarm, divesting themselves of their own deepest convictions the instant they step into the political fray.

I do give Chait points, though, for coming up with an, um, unique rebuttal to the “what about MLK?” line of argument that always seems to flummox advocates of a purely secular politics.

Then we have the civil rights movement. This has become the social right's favorite example--a cuddly historical mascot for anti-secular politics. The argument is that, if you support Martin Luther King--and who doesn't these days?--you shouldn't have a problem with other kinds of faith-based politics.

It's certainly true that the civil rights movement was rooted in black churches and the language of religious liberation. But this was an artifact of a unique situation. Slavery, Jim Crow, and the one-party white supremacist character of Southern politics had destroyed every other possible outlet for African American politics other than the church. Civil rights activism took the form of preaching because that was the only form black politics could take.

There’s an important truth buried somewhere in this strange argument, which is that faith-based politics is more appropriately applied to deep political injustices than to superficial ones. When you invoke Biblical language to oppose slavery or segregation, abortion or an unjust war, there’s a consonance between rhetoric and reality that doesn’t exist when you invoke the New Testament to support progressive taxation or school vouchers.

But as I said, that point is buried; on the surface Chait’s argument is condescending and bizarre. It’s so kind of him to grant the civil rights movement permission to talk about Moses and the Promised Land, so gracious of him to let them appeal to their fellow Southerners’ Christian principles in making the case for human equality, so considerate of him to grant a special exception to the rule of secular politics. I wonder – just how many alternative political outlets would have had to be available to the civil rights movement to render MLK’s sermonizing speeches unseemly in Chait’s eyes? (Quite a few did exist, after all, starting with the NAACP – and of course as Christopher Hitchens never tires of pointing out, there were atheists and Communists doing their part for civil rights as well.) More importantly, where does one apply for the special License to Commit Faith-Based Politics that Chait grants to King and Abernathy? Is there an Office of Causes So Desperate That It’s Okay To Invoke the Supreme Being? (Maybe pro-lifers should camp out there, in the hopes that some kindly bureaucrat will smile on them one day.)

No, this won’t do. There’s no standard you can set that doesn’t fatally compromise the standing of religious Americans, and unduly privilege the interests (and prejudices) of their secular fellow citizens. Faith-based politics is often unwise and counterproductive, God knows. But it isn’t un-American; if anything, it’s more American than any purely-secular alternative. And so it should remain.

Comments (112)

Ross,

Chait's right: you're brilliant. But you're a coward.

The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy. Magazines you write for on a regular basis proudly endorse Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics. And we haven't heard a peep from you about any of it.

What's wrong? Afraid that The National Review won't publish anymore of your movie reviews? Sad, Ross, very, very sad.

Magazines you write for on a regular basis proudly endorse Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics. And we haven't heard a peep from you about any of it.

Since when does the left have a problem with the Khmer Rouge or any other leftist dictatorships?

That's what I find the most irritating about the embrace of torture by some on the right: it allows the left to pretend they're opposed to torture on principle. They're not. They're just opposed to Bush doing it. If Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro does it, who cares?

Very well done. The idea that "secular" language is somehow "neutral" language just simply doesn't hold water. The truth of the matter is that (as Eugene Volokh is always wont to point out) we all have basic moral, philosophical, or religious views that both conflict and cannot be adjudicated rationally. (This doesn't mean that they aren't rationally defensible - it's just that people in free societies come to different conclusions about basic moral claims and there's no reason to think that will ever change). So it makes no sense to say that someone should be able to make an argument rooted in hedonistic utilitarianism (surely a secular set of claims) and then turn around and say you ought not make one rooted in say a Biblical view of human nature (whatever that argument might be). And it's not the case that the non-believer is *necessarily* at a disadvantage here, since theistic arguments are not *necessarily* any better than non-theistic ones; rather, it's just that American culture has deep strands in it that resonate to religious language.

AK,

1. Nothing in my post indicates that I am a liberal, let alone a "leftist." It's called reading, AK. Try it.

2. True, there are some on the left--the far, far left--who supported (or at least apologized for) torture regimes. They were very much on the fringe, though. But the mainstream of today's conservative movement supports torture. The mainstream conservative presidential candidates (barring the loathed-by-the right McCain, of course) support torture; the mainstream conservative political magazines support torture; and the mainstream conservative think tank organizations support torture.

This is vile, AK. And you know it. Stop trying to change the subject. If you're a conservative, your side loves--loves--torture. That's evil. Do something to make it stop.

That goes for you too, Ross. Stop posting about movies and start posting about torture.

The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy. Magazines you write for on a regular basis proudly endorse Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics. And we haven't heard a peep from you about any of it.

What's wrong? Afraid that The National Review won't publish anymore of your movie reviews? Sad, Ross, very, very sad.

That's what I love about the left, every time they lose an argument, they change the topic.

Plus, as the commentator above stated, the left would probably be in a better position to make this argument if the regimes they have (and still do) supported (Kmer rouge; North Vietnam; USSR; Cuba, etc), ONLY used interrogation techniques such as water-boarding instead of true torture techniques. The fact that you equate water-boarding with "Kmher Rouge" torture techniques shows just how far from reality and facts you live.

It is sad when leftists try and take the moral high ground - as they generally do not even admit morals exist in the first place.

Wow. What a fantastic argument. I'm going to have to read it a few times to really let it sink in. As a practicing member of the LDS (Mormon) church, I have to say that I don't want Mitt to give the JFK speech in the sense that I don't want religion out of politics. It would be tough to make essentially moral arguments (life issues, caring for the poor and elderly, etc) based on the social contract and social evolution. The trick for Mitt is to express his values in a way that doesn't use LDS rhetoric (which is tough, trust me) and without using Evangelical rhetoric so he doesn't sound like he's pandering. How do you speak religion without sounding religious? Tough deal.

I think that Chait's point about the churches is that systematic white oppression left very few arenas open in which blacks could gather in number and voice their opinions - a very similar argument to why mosques became the only political rallying point in much of the Muslim world in the face of secular oppression, the leaders in power could not shut them down.

Perhaps Ross's response that there were the NAACP and various other secularists answer the point, but I think that otherwise he treats Chait's argument rather disingenuously by not engaging the 'religious infrastructure as institution, not as creed' idea. It is not a strange point - it is backed up by ample empirical evidence that blacks could not gather in the local civic center in loud, preaching numbers without getting lynched - and it goes far beyond just making the argument against Jim Crow more palpable to Whites.

True, there are some on the left--the far, far left--who supported (or at least apologized for) torture regimes. They were very much on the fringe, though.

That's just a flat out lie.

The Great Banana writes: "The fact that you equate water-boarding with 'Kmher Rouge' torture techniques shows just how far from reality and facts you live."

Meanwhile, Andrew Sullivan brings us a post with a photo captioned:

(Photo of a Khmer Rouge waterboarding, in a torture museum in Cambodia. They didn't get the Bush memo that the museum needs to be called one of "enhanced interrogation.")

Who am I to believe as to whether or not the Khmer Rouge used waterboarding to torture people - the Great Banana or the torture museum in Cambodia?

Nothing in my post indicates that I am a liberal, let alone a "leftist." It's called reading, AK. Try it.

It's called "reading between the lines," Jimbo. No non-leftist could allege that the "conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy." There are plenty of conservatives who do not support torture. By painting with such a broad brush, you reveal yourself to be a leftist. Don't try to deny it. You tipped your hand in your petulant response, again painting with a ludicrously broad brush:

If you're a conservative, your side loves--loves--torture

McCain is "loathed by the right." No one except a leftist could possibly think that.

And if you really think that it's only the "far, far left" who supported and continues to support leftist dictatorships, you have forfeited your right to be taken seriously. You're a leftist.

Just as a point of information,

1)There is no evidence, and in fact not even any serious allegations, that any torture has gone on in Venezuela since President Chàvez took office.

2)While there is reason to believe that torture went on in Cuban prisons in the '60s and '70s, I haven't heard any credible allegations about it happening more recently. certainly not from the main human rights organizations. The abuses in Cuban prisons traditionally took the form of deprivation of food and medicine (which are bad enough of course). In spite of that the death rate in Cuban prisons was fairly low, compared to other third world countries, and certainly there was far less torture than under the relatively civilized right-wing regimes in Argentina or Chile- to say nothing of the truly brutal right-wing regimes in El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, or the DR.

3) Torture did undoubtedly happen in North Vietnam. (it bears remembering that the country was in the middle of a war.) There was considerable debate about it in North Vietnamese government however, and reason to believe that torture was the product of Chinese influence on a Maoist clique. Ho Chi Minh, personally, was opposed to torture, argued against it, and went on national radio to issue a tearful apology for torture during the land reform campaign. And the South Vietnamese, of course, did more than their share of torturing as well.

There are enough genuinely brutal left wing leaders- Mao, Mengistu, Stalin, etc. - that it's not necessary to exaggerate the abuses of other left wing regimes.

If you're a conservative, your side loves--loves--torture. That's evil. Do something to make it stop. That goes for you too, Ross. Stop posting about movies and start posting about torture.

You're not the boss of me. I'll address the evil in the world on my own schedule.

There's a lot of evil in the world. Torture is one evil among many. If tortured terrorists want my sympathy, they can get in line behind about a billion other people.

So yes, given the opportunity, it would be nice if we could stop the evil of torture, just as it would be nice if we could stop the evils of poverty, disease, war, abortion, captial punishment, and famine. But you don't get to dictate how I allocate my time and resources.

Secularists who take this tack are essentially telling their fellow citizens that their deepest convictions, which often go to precisely the sort of just-society issues that politics is supposed to reckon with, are beyond the pale of public discussion.

The core issue missing in the logic is coercion. What the secularist (when sane) opposes is not faith, but the exclusion of pluralism. When you declare your religious book to be the guiding light of our state policy (or even explicitly reference your beliefs in state prayers and slogans), you convert the state into a banner for your religion, and require submission to American sovereignty to imply submission to your particular metaphysical views.

We currently grant religious institutions of all denominations a wide set of privileges from taxation and regulation. Sometimes the privileges one religion requests perhaps even offend the metaphysical views of another--see the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and drug use, for example. The separation of religion and state coercion works both ways--not because religion is some evil thing that we need to get rid of, but because religious autonomy is itself sacred. Even legitimate secular purposes like local zoning must bend somewhat when dealing with religious entities.

There's an irony here in that if you're an atheist there's no particular reason why religious autonomy is more important than any other kind of autonomy, but if you're a Christian it should be obvious--God wants us to come to him by our own free will, not by state dictation. The Christian submits to secular government only in secular matters--render unto Caesar and all that. You should be free to follow your faith's teachings which are holy and sacred AND free to not follow my faith's teachings which are profane and blasphemous--unless there is some publicly arguable and defensible reason to override that sacred autonomy.

That's not to say that no religious arguments are acceptable--those that can be mapped onto secular terms of justice/compassion/freedom/etc like slavery, segregation, abortion, war and even progressive taxation and school vouchers are perfectly sensible.

On the other hand, embedding Saint Paul's view of homosexuality into state policy would be a clear violation of religious freedom. It's completely arbitrary and difficult to defend in any terms but "God said so".

The point here is not to exclude certain categories of metaphysics, but to allow a great many metaphysical views to exist in the same physical space--either because freedom is inherently good, we believe missionaries of our metaphysical faction shall succeed in conversion, or we hope for some synthesis or evolution into better metaphysics.

Admittedly, quite a few secularists get this wrong too, to say the least. Chait might be one of them.

1. Great Banana: the Khmer Rouge waterboarded. The US, under Bush, waterboards. I'm sorry, but this is simply the truth.

2. Great Banana: if you think that support for the USSR and other torture regimes was a mainstream left-of-center position, then you're deluded. Could you direct me to those parts of past Democratic Party platforms calling for an embrace of North Korea?

3. AK: I assure you that I am not a leftist. Also, it's plain for all to see that opposition to torture as US policy is a decidedly minority position in today's conservative movement. I'm sorry but it's true.

4. AK and Great Banana: what's with calling people "leftists"? You do realize, I hope, that "leftist" is the typical term for someone on the far left who supports revolutionary socialism. Lenin and Mao were leftists. FDR, Truman, LBJ, and the Democratic Party--not leftists. Please, fellas, some terminological precision!

I've clearly touched a nerve. It looks as if some conservatives just can't stand the fact that their movement loves--loves--torture. Don't deny it, guys. (When Mitt Romney promises to "double Guantanamo" to appease the drooling right-wing hordes, you know there's a problem.) Do something about it.

The images evoked by "Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics" go a little beyond water-boarding. The fact that the U.S. government has sanctioned waterboarding in particular situations, on the one hand, and the fact that the Khmer Rouge also waterboarded people, doesn't really tell us anything important. In fact making the comparison is morally repugnant, since it either downplays the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge or implicates the U.S. government in them. The reason the Khmer Rouge evokes fear and horror is because they murdered millions of their fellow countrymen, including doing various grotesque things like cutting babies out of the womb in order to kill both mother and child. If all the Khmer Rouge did was waterboard people, they wouldn't be a monstrous example of inhumanity, and the moral taint you are trying to transfer to the U.S. government would be negligible.

The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy.

This is only true if one defines waterboarding as torture, and if one defines "in a specific circumstances where it is warranted" as "wholeheartedly".

Thanks for the giant non-sequiter, though.

On the other hand, embedding Saint Paul's view of homosexuality into state policy would be a clear violation of religious freedom. It's completely arbitrary and difficult to defend in any terms but "God said so".

Actually embedding _Saint Paul's_ view would certainly be problematic for the US political order, I agree. However, having policies (no gay marriage, no state sanctioning of gay relationships as such) that may be supported by some because of St. Paul's views is not problematic. Even public rhetoric in the democratic debate that raises Christian (which is not just Christian, of course -- orthodox Judaism and Islam are of similar mind here, as were many pagans if you look at history) sexual morality as a reason for this policy choice is appropriate. That a policy exists (in part) because of a religious view of a large portion of the population does not mean that the policy forces belief or embeds a theological doctrine. In its early days, it seems clear that both abolition of slavery and ending Jim Crow derived from Christian principles about the brotherhood of man -- this did not "force belief" on those who could no longer own slaves or segregate blacks.

When you declare your religious book to be the guiding light of our state policy (or even explicitly reference your beliefs in state prayers and slogans), you convert the state into a banner for your religion, and require submission to American sovereignty to imply submission to your particular metaphysical views.

Nonsense. This is the kind of hysteria that makes secularists so difficult to talk to on these matters.

Few things are more genuinely "coercive" than throwing around absurd accusations and blantantly misrepresenting the views of those who disagree with you.

Mike S.

1. Waterboarding is torture. Past US administrations always referred to it as such when other governments practised it.

2. Deroy Murdock wrote in the National Review that waterboarding--torture, remember--is something of which Americans should be proud. He actually wrote "proud." Sounds wholehearted.

I'm sorry, guys, but the conservative movement is now the torture movement. This is such a vile turn of events that it's almost impossible to believe. But it's true. Denying it won't do anyone--certainly not conservatives--any good.

Consumatopia,

It seems to me your argument goes wrong in thinking that if a democratic order imposed a particular policy choice *because* it reflected (in some way) their religious convictions, that would be impermissible in way not true of secular convictions. Why is that? You're right to note that "coercion" is a key component in this question, but the liberal (liberal in the broad sense of the term) protections of religious liberty limit religion's political involvement only to the degree that such involvement aims at coercing others in their religious beliefs and practices. That is, religious liberty protections mean that Ross can't make us all Papists. It doesn't say anything about the rationale citizens might employ in thinking about how the state should (or should not) act vis-a-vis sexuality. It seems to me that you're making something of a category mistake here.

I'm sorry, guys, but the conservative movement is now the torture movement.

Er, but a number of conservatives _don't actually endorse torture_, and some oppose it adamantly. Yes, there are conservative writers who do support torture. That's bad, I agree. But it is hardly the defining characteristic of contemporary conservatism (certainly not of the more "reactionary" strands), to the extent that, say, abortion-on-demand defines contemporary liberalism. FIRST THINGS, a bete noire of the anti-religious-right intellectuals, helped move my position on torture and "things that might be torture, but which one can genuinely argue about -- e.g., if they are used in training our own people" to a more committed absolute opposition, even in "ticking bomb" situations. Painting the right as monolithic here is simply unfair. Criticize writers who've supported torture, but don't pretend every conservative does, which is simply dishonest.

John, considering that "under God" is in the pledge of allegiance, it's pretty obvious that we explicitly require submission to the state to imply submission to God. You could argue that the pledge and coinage God references are of minor consequence, and I'd be inclined to agree, but you can't plausibly deny what you quoted.

Consumpatopia,

But if the pledge and the coinage invoke this problematic requirement to adhere to metaphysics -- well, then it's old enough and non-controversial enough that I think you should just give up. The American political order is, on your terms, theocratic. Maybe you can change that, but if _those_ are the indicators, then you probably have a lost cause. It seems to weaken your case, in fact -- if "under God" and "in God we trust" counterexample the secular order you desire, then I see no reason to assume that order had any normative force in American politics, and thus can safely stop worrying about its arguments, as I would dismiss the right-wing weirdos who talk about how the wrong naval flag flies in a courtroom and they "can't really" be taxed on their income because of some subtle logical contradiction in the relevant amendment.

It seems to me your argument goes wrong in thinking that if a democratic order imposed a particular policy choice *because* it reflected (in some way) their religious convictions, that would be impermissible in way not true of secular convictions. Why is that? You're right to note that "coercion" is a key component in this question, but the liberal (liberal in the broad sense of the term) protections of religious liberty limit religion's political involvement only to the degree that such involvement aims at coercing others in their religious beliefs and practices.

I agree with this except to the extent that you're ascribing the former view to me.

I just take a broad view of "religious beliefs and practices". Marriage, in particular, is a sacred religious institution. The state should not discriminate between the marriages recognized by one church and those recognized by another unless it has a very good secular reason. Incest and polygamy: good secular reasons for opposing. Gay marriages: not good secular reasons for opposing.

I think the applies more broadly--if the only arguments you can come up with are religious ones, that probably suggests that the thing in question is a religious practice, and imposing your will over the practice is an imposition of religious belief. But it definitely applies to sexuality--our love for God requires freedom to love (and therefore not love) God, and that is also true of our love for each other.

This does not mean that religious arguments for state policy are automatically crap as I guess Chait would argue--but those that don't have readily available secular arguments are suspect. It would be like I drew a metaphor from a novel where some state policy is bad in the same way some character is bad. If pressed, I should be able to explain why the novel's moral implications hold true in the real world. Citations to the Sermon on the Mount are equivalent to those to Orwell or Kafka--pertinent to policy because of the author's insight not the author's authority.

AK thumps: "Torture is one evil among many. If tortured terrorists want my sympathy, they can get in line behind about a billion other people."

In other words, AK loves the idea that "terrorists" are being tortured.

As GOP hero Rudy Giuliani said when asked if torture is wrong, "It depends on who does it."

This is the actual position of the vast majority of those who call themselves "conservatives" today. It is most certainly the position of 99% of the National Review gang.

But if the pledge and the coinage invoke this problematic requirement to adhere to metaphysics -- well, then it's old enough and non-controversial enough that I think you should just give up.

Actually, I think it's people who disagree with me on this point who should be disheartened. It's pretty clear that such things persist simply as the "junk DNA" of politics--they're old and harmless and people are fixated on them so let the baby have his bottle of ceremonial deism if it shuts him up. Elsewhere, religious autonomy seems fairly intact.

Honestly, when I read the first clause of your first sentence, I thought you'd write "if this is the best you can come up with, what are you complaining about?" And that would be true--I mostly like the status quo, accept on things like homosexuality which seem to be trending my way anyway.

Seriously, if Roe v. Wade doesn't make you give up, kindergarten chanting and coinage won't make me give up.

OK, let's get away from torture and back to Ross' post

First of all, Father Neuhaus is an idiot and I don't know why Ross quotes him. Neuhaus actually wrote that he thinks that it is reason enough to vote for Romney that he will promote a "false" religion (take the log out of your own eye, Dick!). As if the President is the Pope or something!

Second of all, on the merits of this, no, Ross, it ain't Democrats that are anti-Mormon. Democrats voted for Romney in Massachussetts. Indeed, Mormons can get elected in heavily Mormon states (Utah, Nevada, Arizona) and in heavily Democratic ones (Massachussetts). They can't get elected in states filled with conservative Protestant and Catholic bigots.

And most importantly, I think this really comes down to how nutty you think Romney's faith is. Yes, I would vote against David Koresh because of his religious beliefs. But Mormons aren't the Branch Davidians. Indeed, if we are going to get into comparative religious beliefs, Catholocism as practiced by right-wing Catholics is a lot "weirder" than Mormonism. But I am sure that Neuhaus and Ross would have NO problems with a person who said "I think anyone who believes that a cracker and wine turn into the blood and body of Christ, and that we can know that a woman who lived 2,000 years ago never had sex, is a complete whack-job and shouldn't be President". Right?

Incest and polygamy: good secular reasons for opposing. Gay marriages: not good secular reasons for opposing.

But there ARE numerous secular arguments that have been made against gay marriage, based on demography (or mere respect for tradition and "social conservatism" in the deep sense of not tinkering with what is important but not well understood). Moreover, your claim that there are good secular reasons for A and B and not for C is not some fundamental truth that everyone debating agrees with -- it's a controversial claim that you make. You don't have to sign up to that statement to enter the door of American politics, you know! In other words, if this is merely an "argument" you want to give in pursuit of _your_ policy preferences ("don't listen to these folks, their arguments are a kind we should not allow here") -- fine. If you want to pretend that some fundamental character of American democracy makes this a normative claim, however, you're barking up the wrong tree.

I'd note that I'm actually more open to polygamy than to gay marriage, myself. I dislike polygamy, and think it's a bad idea, but if the Muslim population (that was interested in polygamy) was large enough -- why not? The secular arguments seem about as abstract and "social sciency" as the anti-gay-marriage arguments, and the tradition is ancient, in many parts of the world.

And sure, Roe makes me want to give up on the whole order of American politics, and consider revolutionary alternatives, on the bad days. Arrogations of power, overthrowing both morality and democracy in one fell swoop, tend to do that to you. But I'll stick it out a little longer.

John, considering that "under God" is in the pledge of allegiance, it's pretty obvious that we explicitly require submission to the state to imply submission to God. You could argue that the pledge and coinage God references are of minor consequence, and I'd be inclined to agree, but you can't plausibly deny what you quoted.

Who's the "we" here? Conservatives? Americans in general? The schoolteachers who make their kids recite the Pledge? The people who added that phrase in to distinguish us from the Godless communists?

Sorry but that's about as weak of an argument as you could possibly make. I believe in God and believe that our nation is (metaphorically) under Him, but I don't think that you're disqualified from being a good American unless you "submit" yourself to Him. Hell, I don't even think you're required to believe what the Pledge says ...

But there ARE numerous secular arguments that have been made against gay marriage, based on demography (or mere respect for tradition and "social conservatism" in the deep sense of not tinkering with what is important but not well understood).

Marquis, I agree that there are secular arguments against gay marriage-- I don't buy them, but they are out there and do have to do with tradition and the like.

But remember, the anti-gay agenda goes beyond gay marriage. I don't think there are ANY arguments other than bigotry (and bigotry dressed up as religious belief is still bigotry) for enacting an entire government program against gays and lesbians, including no civil unions, no enforcement of contracts between partners, no employment discrimination legislation, no open gays in the military, no gay adoptions, reversing Lawrence v. Texas and restoring sodomy laws, etc.

When you look at the whole package of conservative policies on gays, it's clearly all about homophobia, not simply preserving the traditonal definition of marriage.

There's an irony here in that if you're an atheist there's no particular reason why religious autonomy is more important than any other kind of autonomy

Well, there is the first amendment.

The core issue missing in the logic is coercion. What the secularist (when sane) opposes is not faith, but the exclusion of pluralism. When you declare your religious book to be the guiding light of our state policy (or even explicitly reference your beliefs in state prayers and slogans), you convert the state into a banner for your religion, and require submission to American sovereignty to imply submission to your particular metaphysical views.

What, exactly, is wrong with making this argument, though? That's the whole point of politics - to determine what we will require submission to, and what we don't. Secularists are equally demanding that people submit to their particular metaphysical views. One must distinguish between disagreeing with a particular position and arguing that it is improper to make the argument in public in the first place.

For example, we don't have the federal government arrest the racists like David Duke when they argue for explicitly racist policies. The likes of Chait don't typically argue that the David Dukes of the world should be able to make their arguments in public - they just reject such arguments as bigoted and wrong. But when it comes to Christians arguing that our public policies should be different than they are with regard to abortion, or that they should not change to accommodate same-sex marriage, Chait et al. don't simply argue that they are wrong, they add the extra dimension that says that it is improper to make such arguments in the first place in the public square if they are religiously motivated. Which, as Ross points out, is contrary to the American way of doing things.

Look at it this way: if Romney was out their making theological arguments that Christians should embrace Mormonism, or that nonbelievers should convert to Mormonism, would he be leading in polls in Iowa or New Hampshire? The fact that he's leading means that he is appealing to people based on common ground: namely that they agree with his positions, or they think he'll do the best job as President. As Jonah Goldberg pointed out in the Corner, liberals never raise an eyebrow when Democrats use religion as a basis for their arguments - it's only when people use religion to argue for policies that they disagree with that they turn to the "no religion in the public square" position.

There will always be some possible secular explanation for religiously inspired policy. Sometimes they're not very deep and shouldn't be taken seriously. You can cite tradition for, say, the treatment of Dalits in India. Tradition is a valid thing to cite, but it's not absolute. Tradition is a vague reason not to screw with things for no reason, but once we have good reasons it doesn't have much force, especially in a society that's already as dynamic as ours. We have plenty of traditions that we've discarded like toilet paper, the argument for keeping this particular one while losing all the others doesn't really stand independent of St. Paul's brief mention. If marriage really is a sacred institution then it deserves religious autonomy. It's arguable whether the threat of becoming an illiberal, unequal society like those that tend to practice polygamy is worth limiting that autonomy, but I see no such plausible threat with gay marriage.

Admittedly I'm just asserting that the secular argument against gay marriage is too weak to stand independently and not actually providing evidence for it, but I think we've had that out elsewhere and I don't imagine either of us sees much utility in starting it again.

On the subject of the disheartening, if you don't mind me inquiring, what do you plan to do if a pro-choice, pro-torture candidate wins the Republican nomination?

likes of Chait don't typically argue that the David Dukes of the world should be able to make their arguments in public - they just reject such arguments as bigoted and wrong. But when it comes to Christians arguing that our public policies should be different than they are with regard to abortion, or that they should not change to accommodate same-sex marriage, Chait et al. don't simply argue that they are wrong, they add the extra dimension that says that it is improper to make such arguments in the first place in the public square if they are religiously motivated. Which, as Ross points out, is contrary to the American way of doing things.

I don't think "improper" captures the secular objection to these things. Obviously, if a Catholic wants to say that we shouldn't have abortion or capital punishment because scripture, or the Pope, or natural law prohibits it, that's within the person's right of free speech and people can consider the argument on its merits.

What us secularists have a problem with is this-- there are many people in this world who, for lack of a better term, think that any particular religious belief is complete unmitigated BS. This includes not only atheists and agnostics but also lots of believers who either have a different faith or who may even have the same faith but are not as doctrinaire or literalistic or accepting of the infallibility of the leadership of the church.

So when someone says that government should discriminate against gays or that a woman should be forced to bear a child because "God wants it", to many people, that claim is no more persuasive or binding than a claim that "my imaginary friend wants it". It is unprovable, unjustifiable, and based on a mystical experience that many of the rest of us don't share. And when implemented, it interferes with another person's ability to live his or her life.

Now I do realize that the civil rights movement and other movements that were unarguably good have made religious arguments. But that's not more persuasive to me than saying a stopped clock is right twice a day. Restricting someone's liberties based on the "orders" of another person's deity seems like the assertion of raw power. It is a recipe for adherents of majority religions to lord over the rest of us, not because their beliefs are true but because they have control of the apparati of the state.

And I think conservative Christians need to think about what it would be like if they lived in a state that was not secular-- as they seem to fear-- but rather was controlled by devout adherents of another religion. Would they enjoy living under a law that prohibited lending at interest? Would they enjoy living under a law that prohibited them from attending a college football game on a Saturday? Would they enjoy living under a law that prohibited alcoholic beverages, even for sacramental purposes? Remmber, mainstream faiths as influential as yours believe that God ordained those things.

You see, all this appealing to religious premises for legislation that infringes the liberties of nonbelievers and members of other faiths looks good only if you are a member of the faith that controls the government. The best argument for a secular society is that if we were all behind Rawls' veil of ignorance, we would all choose it, because we would have no idea whether we would belong to a majority religion or a minority one.

Sorry but that's about as weak of an argument as you could possibly make. I believe in God and believe that our nation is (metaphorically) under Him, but I don't think that you're disqualified from being a good American unless you "submit" yourself to Him. Hell, I don't even think you're required to believe what the Pledge says ...

I appreciate that, but if saying/believing the pledge isn't necessary to be a good American, well, what's the point of having it?

the argument for keeping this particular one while losing all the others doesn't really stand

In case you hadn't noticed, most actual conservatives (vs. a fairly large group of people who like capitalism very much but have no actual conservative inclinations) are really really really really really really against "losing all the others" too. Heck, a lot of us would like to roll back some of the lost traditions. So that's not much of a point.

Well, there is the first amendment.

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act goes beyond the First Amendment. Not all secularists agree this is a good idea, but Christians should understand why it is--because autonomy in sacred matters is especially important.

That's the whole point of politics - to determine what we will require submission to, and what we don't.

The point is that coerced religious submission is a special kind of no-no--in our society's core we value autonomy in the realm of the sacred in a way that we don't value, say, freedom from taxation.

Secularists are equally demanding that people submit to their particular metaphysical views.

The secular, plural bargain is basically a way of negotiating between different people's metaphysical and value systems. We give every person a share of autonomy within which they act according to their own understanding of what is worth doing. The activies that are most sacred to us, such as religious ritual and sexual relations, are given the wider space than more mundane things like interstate commerce. Admittedly, this does not please everyone--some people believe it is their sacred duty to coerce others into following their faiths' teachings. It seems, though as wide as we can get without contradiction.

It is not that the arguments are wrong and bigotted, it is that they attempt to coerce people in matters of faith. And that's actually what's against the American tradition.

The best argument for a secular society is that if we were all behind Rawls' veil of ignorance, we would all choose it, because we would have no idea whether we would belong to a majority religion or a minority one.

Oh dear heavens. That's not true, I hope. I'm in favor of _some_ elements of secularism, by and large, at least as a practical if not theoretical matter. If the best argument for _anything_ relies on Rawls' much-beloved let-us-abstract-until-we-have-vanished-up-our-own-navels "veil" then there are no good arguments for that thing, if you ask me.

On the subject of the disheartening, if you don't mind me inquiring, what do you plan to do if a pro-choice, pro-torture candidate wins the Republican nomination?

Not sure. Probably vote for the Republican, grudgingly, on various other grounds (there's precious little I can think of where I _prefer_ Democratic policies), but not be happy about it. See Hadley Arkes in FIRST THINGS this month for more on that.

In case you hadn't noticed, most actual conservatives (vs. a fairly large group of people who like capitalism very much but have no actual conservative inclinations) are really really really really really really against "losing all the others" too. Heck, a lot of us would like to roll back some of the lost traditions. So that's not much of a point.

Once the barn door is open there's no point in shutting the windows. So if you're just doing to gays what you'd like to do to everyone but can't, I hope you'll forgive the rest of us for not taking that seriously.

Admittedly, this does not please everyone--some people believe it is their sacred duty to coerce others into following their faiths' teachings.

So I assume you're adamantly against government funding for abortion, which coerces people to fund what their beliefs teach is murder?

Oh dear heavens. That's not true, I hope. I'm in favor of _some_ elements of secularism, by and large, at least as a practical if not theoretical matter. If the best argument for _anything_ relies on Rawls' much-beloved let-us-abstract-until-we-have-vanished-up-our-own-navels "veil" then there are no good arguments for that thing, if you ask me.

Marquis, you didn't answer my point; you just bashed on Rawls.

Here is a situation where whether one views the actions of the government as a oppressive and illegitimate or simply the expression of the natural order of things depends almost completely on whether your religious faith is in the majority or not.

And my problem with right-wing Christians' anti-secularism arguments is that they seem completely naive about how any of these policies seem to an adherent of ANOTHER religion, or an atheist or agnostic. Or what a Muslim or Mormon or Orthodox Jewish state following the same principles would do to right-wing Christians.

This is what makes the veil of ignorance a good tool in this circumstance; how you feel about this depends almost completely on whether you have the power to enact your preferences rather than someone else enacting their preferences.

Secularism says we're going to screw all the religions. I can see why religious believers don't like that, but that's much better than somebody forcing you to do something because a nonexistent (in your mind) diety allegedly ordered it.

Yes, I know, the ratchet of history only moves left, progress is inevitable, etc. etc. etc. Maybe, but I don't know that it's true in the long run, and anyway -- simply keeping some of the traditions we still do have seems like a valid goal, and thus far, at least, it hasn't actually failed in this case, unless an anti-democratic elite-opinion-fiat has established victory. Clearly the anti-gay-marriage movement has to be "taken seriously" at least for the next twenty or so years. I'll grant you have the young people -- but they also look, in many polls, more pro-life than your current cohorts, so perhaps there will be gains in other ways.

If social science starts demonstrating more persuasively that conservatively normative ways of life tend to better human results, then some trends may have a more powerful counterforce than they do now.

So I assume you're adamantly against government funding for abortion, which coerces people to fund what their beliefs teach is murder?

Money is a form of coercion, but it isn't the same as coerced practices.

Indeed, I have this argument with my fellow liberals who think that school vouchers are unconstitutional. Forcing us to pay tuition for some students at religious schools (which already happens at the collegiate level) is simply not the same as forcing us to engage in religious practice.

But that also means that forcing a believer to pay for an abortion he objects to is not at all similar to forcing a woman to carry to term an embryo because some believers think that a God that the woman doesn't believe in says the embryo has the same rights as a born person.

We all have to pay for things we don't like. How many pacifists have to pay taxes to fund the Iraq War? But drafting a pacifist to fight the Iraq War would be quite different, correct?

But, Dilan, my claim (and that of most American religious conservatives) is not that we want to enforce Christianity on everyone. It is that secularist policies (the ones talked up as secularist, vs. things that are simply not much relating to religion, such as the precise structure of most zoning codes) enact the preferences of people who believe certain metaphysical claims -- i.e., that an embryo has no moral standing, or that gay sexual relationships deserve as much recognition as heterosexual ones. That's not a neutral ground, it's a claim itself, and the pretense (highly irritating) that the _secular_ assumptions (or assumptions of some "liberal" religious folks, sometimes based on religious claims, for that matter) are not preferences, but some privileged neutral ground -- that's ridiculous. It's annoying. And it's false.

If the argument were whether everyone should be required to go to Mass, or observe the Sabbath, or acknowledge a Creator, then you'd have a good point. But outlawing abortion is no more this kind of thing than anything else. The problem is not just that I dislike Rawls, but this even misapplies Rawls -- you're asking for a veil of ignorance on your beliefs, not just your status. So, how do I know if I'll be someone who believes it's ok for the state to regulate the minimum wage I can pay someone, or someone who doesn't? Well, I guess we should maintain neutrality, because my freedom to pay people below the minimum wage will be trampled otherwise, in case I end up one of the folks who doesn't believe in mimimum wages! If you were applying this to more aggressive impositions of religious beliefs, rather than second-order morality sometimes derived from religion, it'd be a much stronger argument. As it is, it seems vaguely disruptive of anything other than a hyper-libertarian government, because hell, I might end up in the land where everyone believes in taxing all income at 100%, so I'd best not allow taxes at all.

From a conservative point of view, not particularly religious, though I think Christianity will have problems with this, too, based on an incarnational view of history, the problem with Rawls is that it pretends there is no history, that we are standing in an epistemological wasteland where we must only argue about structure, and never about content, because we don't get to observe content. But that's not reality, it's nothing like reality. Things exist in a context, a world, with a history, and an order already exists. Rawls takes the anti-reality nature of utopian thought (right or left, really) and elevates it to the level of the only principle of justice.

So I assume you're adamantly against government funding for abortion, which coerces people to fund what their beliefs teach is murder?

I would be on the fence, as my autonomy model privileges bodily control over financial control, though I haven't decided by how much.

Yes, I know, the ratchet of history only moves left, progress is inevitable, etc. etc. etc.

Actually, I was thinking out rather than left--like expecting an expanding gas to contract itself back into it's original container. Good or bad, The expansion is done and seemingly not undoable. The social entropy of, say, divorce, completely washes out any social order preserved by the absence of gay marriage.

If social science starts demonstrating more persuasively that conservatively normative ways of life tend to better human results, then some trends may have a more powerful counterforce than they do now.

Probably true, though I think there would be more resistance to ordering the fundamentals of their lives to the results of studies in the same way we adjust our diet to new nutritional studies.

I would be on the fence, as my autonomy model privileges bodily control over financial control, though I haven't decided by how much.

But that's _not_ about bodily control -- I'm free to get married in the US, but the state doesn't have to pay for the wedding. I'm free to have sex, but Uncle Sam doesn't make everyone pony up to give me viagra. You can't pretend making me PAY FOR someone else's right (geez, I like the right to go to Church -- can I get you to pay for my gas to drive there?) is about their having that right.

It is that secularist policies (the ones talked up as secularist, vs. things that are simply not much relating to religion, such as the precise structure of most zoning codes) enact the preferences of people who believe certain metaphysical claims -- i.e., that an embryo has no moral standing, or that gay sexual relationships deserve as much recognition as heterosexual ones.

But that's false. One can have a completely secular society where abortion is prohibited (because there are many secular arguments against abortion), gay marriage is not recognized (until recently, every secular society on the planet was like this), etc.

You are acting like adopting secularism RESOLVES all the culture war arguments. I don't see how this is true unless one of the central arguments made by cultural conservatives-- which is that there are arguments based on natural law and reason for their positions-- is actually false and the whole enterprise stands or falls on religion.

The problem is not just that I dislike Rawls, but this even misapplies Rawls -- you're asking for a veil of ignorance on your beliefs, not just your status.

We treat religion as a form of status, and for good reason. Unlike other beliefs, it both goes to the core of our being and really isn't very susceptible to rational argument. We believe the abilities of human reason to resolve the question of, for instance, whether a hawkish or dovish foreign policy will better reduce the threat of terrorism. However, human reason can't settle the question of the divinity of Jesus, or whether Muhammed ascended to heaven on a golden steed, or whether Moses spoke to God on top of the mountain.

So what we say, as a society-- and I am sure you support this-- is that you can't discriminate against somebody in employment or the receipt of government benefits, etc., on account of religion. We treat it like race. We assume that it is not like one's other beliefs.

And once religion is understood as a form of status, I think the veil of ignorance can usefully apply here.

As I said, though, you are still missing the broader point. Don't you think your views on secularism would be different if some other religion was in the majority and was passing legislation to compel adherence to its views of fundamental questions by nonbelievers? Isn't it undeniable that conservatives who decry secularism are assuming that Christians will always control the levers of government?

You can't pretend making me PAY FOR someone else's right (geez, I like the right to go to Church -- can I get you to pay for my gas to drive there?) is about their having that right.

Relative to the importance of the right and the cost of paying for it, I would. Keep in mind that I get forced to pay for lots of things that suck (Iraq) and I want to force other people to pay for lots of things they hate (schools, hospitals, police, fire, whatever. In cases where the autonomy gained is much larger than the autonomy lost, go with it.

On abortion in general I'd be on the face, but on, say, emergency contraception--yes, definitely, the government should guarantee that stuff is available to any women who asks at some reasonable price. The autonomy over the womb gained vastly outweighs my autonomy over my wallet.

I should emphasize that I think the secular arguments for banning abortion are more reasonable than those against gay marriage.

five previous Mormons ran for President....no
questions or problems....Why now? I am
Presbyterian....Listen up if you did notquestion
John Kerry on how he could continue with his
Catholic faith ....which has paid out over 2 Billion to family's for rape of members,since
the late fifty's. Priest going to prison,The
Cardinal from Boston cAN't think of his name
just before the previous Pope died he promoted
him to the Vatican...This Cardinal had full
knowledge of all going on in his Diocese,so we
have no right to question the Mormon faith.

You are acting like adopting secularism RESOLVES all the culture war arguments.

No, I misunderstood you. I thought you were acting like that. Some secularists -- Consumatopia seems to think this way, and Garry Wills and some others on their bad days -- do seem to think that if we all agree "let's not impose my religion on anyone" then, whammo! presto! it does settle the culture wars. Abortion and gay marriage are the neutral default, not policy choices. Doesn't look like that's your position.

I should note aside that I'm a little more skeptical about religion as an "unchosen" and irrational decision than you are. Kierkegaarde is well and fine, but most people's politics are also unchosen at the large-scale level, and I converted to Catholicism as more a matter of intellectual assent (originally) than of some fervent "feeling." Pure emotionalism is an enemy of faith and religion, just as it is an enemy of science.

Dilan: yes, I do think that. Of course. But this like saying "would you feel differently about police stopping terrorists if the state were a Nazi regime and the terrorists were the resistance?" Well, yeah. That's because the universe is not content-free -- it's not just "does someone have the power to do something" but "what is being done?" This is a major point where (I think) Burkean conservatives depart from libertarians.

""The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy.""

/shrug

This doesn't even rise to the level of B.S.

Torture is in-fact, the official BIPARTISAN policy of the US, and has been since the Clinton administration reversed policy going back to Jimmy Carter and began the rendition of suspected terrorists to countries where they were certain to be tortured.

While many on the political Left now decry Bush for engaging in "torture", they kept their mouths shut when Clinton outsourced it to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. And they also seem remarkably mute in the face of the failure of a now Democratic Party dominated Congress to even investigate the use of waterboarding by the US government, let alone take any steps to criminalize it.

The only honest thing that can be said here is that _some_ on the right are not hypocrites on the issue, unlike virtually the entire left which whines and whines and whines about the policy, but followed the same policies in the recent past, does absolutely nothing about that policy now and which will continue to follow the same policy if a Democrat is sitting in the oval office in 2009.

The issue most Conservatives have with "gay marriage" is the undemocratic re-definition of "Marriage" by courts angle. After all, if an absolute minority of people can get the supreme court to re-define crucial terms in their favor, why can't ANOTHER minority so win special favors?

If they want the change of law and it's 'reasonable' then go for a constitutional amendment. Ditto with abortion. If it truly was "on demand" and the People loved the idea, then a simple Congressional law in 1973 would have been do-able, or an amendment. But that's not what happened.

Most of the Left's major victories have come via the courts, not the ballot box. And that's what energizes alot of otherwise non-political people to wade into politics as Conservatives.

It's not our side that's been using the force of government to ram rod beliefs on people via government regulation and rulings that are imposed by courts rather than our elected representatives!


Marquis,

I agree with you that religion should not be treated like race or 'status' or whatever that means. People do change their religious views after all. I did, apparently you did, so do lots of people.

I would say though than many people adopt a new religion (or politics, or whatever) largely on the basis of personal experience, sentiment, vision, etc., not on the basis of cool rationalism. Pure emotion may be the enemy of faith, but so is pure reason; pure reason can't actually prove or demonstrate very much. I would argue that our innermost sentiments are probably less easily deceived than our reason. It's easy to make rational arguments in favor of torture, or abortion, or whatever other evil you choose. Much harder to overcome one's innate emotional- one could say, 'natural'- revulsion to actually handling the red-hot poker or the vacuum tube. I suspect that if we invoked a bit more sentiment about helpless little babies and so forth, and a little less talk about natural rights, we would win the abortion debate in short order.

Tertullian's famous argument, after all, 'Look at the beauty of a wildflower, thus do I refute Marcion', was nothing but an appeal to the heart and to the sentiments, and was all the more powerful for that.

I should note aside that I'm a little more skeptical about religion as an "unchosen" and irrational decision than you are.

I am really not saying it can never be chosen, and I don't think my argument depends on whether it is irrational either. My point is that for enough believers, religious belief is a matter of faith and a central part of their self-identity, and for these reasons, it makes sense to treat it as if it were innate.

Dilan: yes, I do think that. Of course. But this like saying "would you feel differently about police stopping terrorists if the state were a Nazi regime and the terrorists were the resistance?" Well, yeah. That's because the universe is not content-free -- it's not just "does someone have the power to do something" but "what is being done?"

Obviously, what is being done matters. But the problem is, I think that anti-secular conservatives are screwing up the theory of liberal democratic government to do what they think should be done. The reason why secularism is so important is actually a fundamentally conservative insight-- that empowering a government to push us to be more virtuous (as defined by any particular belief system) empowers the government to push us in other directions as well.

So, hypothetically (again, I know there are other arguments against abortion, but I am demonstrating a point here) if the US government, at a time when the majority of the country is Christian, decides to outlaw abortion, expressly because the correct teaching of God is that a zygote has the same rights as a born human being, then we are endorsing the principle that any religious majority can utilize the power of the state to impose its religious beliefs-- on pain of imprisonment-- on those who think that they are complete bunk.

Establishing that principle as a governing principle means that down the line, you could be compelled to do things you don't want to do. An obvious example of this is imagine if the Protestants who brought us prohibition had ginned up (pardon the phrase) enough anti-Catholic bigotry to get a law written that had no exception for sacramental wine, and as a result, priests started getting arrested for giving communion to their parishoners. I would think a conservative Catholic would be very concerned with a theory of government that said "as long as the protestants have the votes to do that, the only objection is that banning alcohol is not a sensible policy". Do you really want religious freedom to hang on nothing more than that? Don't we know enough about "zero tolerance" in the war on drugs context (which itself has impinged on, for instance, the worship practices of Native Americans) to know that this isn't really enough protection?

You see, what religious conservatives really receive from the secular society is something they don't recognize but which is very important; the principle that, down the line, somebody won't be outlawing their conduct based on the teachings of a "false God". That's a very important principle; one that works a lot better than simple majoritarianism (which is what we use to determine whether the policy is correct).

Hector: no arguments here!

Dilan, I'm not arguing against constitutional order. I'm probably, in the final analysis, more skeptical of pure majoritarian arguments than you are (the identification of populism and conservatism on some issues is mostly accidental, I think). I just disagree about what the would lead us to prohibit -- in particular, I think that most things you and I would both agree should be outlawed depend more on a metaphysics than you would admit. EVERYTHING is some "majority" or group with power imposing on a potentially unwilling group.

Hector: no arguments here!

Dilan, I'm not arguing against constitutional order. I'm probably, in the final analysis, more skeptical of pure majoritarian arguments than you are (the identification of populism and conservatism on some issues is mostly accidental, I think). I just disagree about what the would lead us to prohibit -- in particular, I think that most things you and I would both agree should be outlawed depend more on a metaphysics than you would admit. EVERYTHING is some "majority" or group with power imposing on a potentially unwilling group.

EVERYTHING is some "majority" or group with power imposing on a potentially unwilling group.

Not if countermajoritarian institutions are maintained.

I realize it drives conservatives crazy, for instance, when school prayer which 80 percent of the public supports is banned by the Supreme Court, but as I said, religious conservatives will be thankful for countermajoritarian secularism when it is some other religious group pulling the strings of the state.

And remember, countermajoritarianism has some important successes. Brown v. Board of Education, for instance, was countermajoritarian. So were much of the Warren Court's police procedure decisions. The Federal Reserve is countermajoritarian (the public would generally prefer a much more inflationary monetary policy).

Countermajoritarian secularism is an insurance policy that protects your liberty against a religious majority that worships a false God and leaves reason aside in justifying its policies. I say that is a very good bargain for everyone, including religious conservatives.

But Dilan -- countermajoritarian institutions themselves are an imposed power that not everyone likes. They don't have some special ontological status that makes _them_ not instruments of power, maintained in part by force (and consent, but to the unwilling to consent, by force).

I mean, I'm on board for countermajoritarian institutions, but somebody isn't, and is presumably thus being imposed on. If nobody is imposed on, then you don't need a constitutional or state structure at all, because nobody would imagine actions that would go against those countermajoritarian points.

No, I misunderstood you. I thought you were acting like that. Some secularists -- Consumatopia seems to think this way, and Garry Wills and some others on their bad days -- do seem to think that if we all agree "let's not impose my religion on anyone" then, whammo! presto! it does settle the culture wars. Abortion and gay marriage are the neutral default, not policy choices.

I guess I wasn't clear--I do not think secularism makes the abortion debate go away. But I do think the neutral default is "you do your thing, I do mine", and if someone wants to override that, they should have sufficient secular reasons for doing so. (They can have religious ones on top of that, e.g. MLK jr.) There's still lots of arguments to be had--gay marriage is just one of those few issues like school prayer where one side runs flagrantly out of bounds--the bounds being those legal claims that are defensible (if not actually defended) by sufficient secular terms.

This principle is fundamentally built into the character of American society and assumptions of government from the beginning--though we deviate occasionally. Though Ross is right that there are numerous moral crusades that are grounded in religious appeals, the ones that are grounded in solely religious appeals tend to lack either traction or staying power. Abolitionism, segregation, prohibition etc. rise and fall according to merits and circumstance and God's name plays a role, but stuff like school prayer, creationism, intelligent design, and ultimately the opposition to same-sex marriage seem doomed.

Something you said earlier

That's not a neutral ground, it's a claim itself,

That's half right. It IS a neutral ground, but the neutral ground itself is a claim. But it seems like the claim that is most conducive to the highest number of other claims coexisting in the same place. It is willing to live with all other claims that are as tolerant as it is. Moreover it seems like a claim that is likely true in that it's defensible in both secularist and Christian terms--Christianity spreads by proselytization rather than conquest and shouldn't have need to coerce people on faith matters.

Secular pluralism is claim, but a special sort of claim providing space for other claims.

But Christianity, in the US, isn't trying to coerce people on faith matters. It's trying to coerce people, sometimes, on moral matters -- things like whether to kill certain living beings, and what kind of relationships we give special recognition by the state. Nobody much (some libertarians aside) argues that the state shouldn't coerce on these matters at all. We're just arguing about how it coerces -- gay marriage, given the way marriage is worked into the law and culture, will force actions in response and recognition of gay marriages.

In other words, I don't want the state to make you believe gay sex is wrong, or that abortion is wrong -- I just want the state not to recognize gay marriages (though I'd like to see some ways to get some things gays want, legally, out of gay marriage, only open to people in non-presumably-sexual relationships) and not let people have abortions.

Just as I want the state to set minimum wages I can pay people in most cases, or to prohibit me from showing pornography to children.

I mean, I'm on board for countermajoritarian institutions, but somebody isn't, and is presumably thus being imposed on.

It's not that simple, though we are getting far afield. Countermajoritarian institutions, properly understood, are not about imposing on anyone's individual right, but on limiting the power of the government to act on the behalf of a majority. (Again, note the conservative theme of the importance of limited government here.)

So the countermajoritarian institution doesn't tell any religious schoolchildren that they may not pray in school; it tells the majority that it cannot use the power of the government to compel kids to pray in school.

There's a big difference.

I think the most important point made in this post is that Ross would exclude some persons as president based on their religion. So he is no different from persons that would exclude Romney based on his religion. Why would you exclude someone based on religion? It is because if we elect someone for the highest office in the world, we validate the religion of that person and send a message that it is OK. Do voters think that Romney's religion is OK? We will see. But giving a speech about it will not help. What question could he possibly answer that has not already been answered? Unless he can prove that his religion is true, his speech will be useless.

Nobody much (some libertarians aside) argues that the state shouldn't coerce on these matters at all.

Few would deny that that default policy is to not coerce on them, though. Your mother-in-law might disapprove of your marriage, but few Americans would argue that she has the right to legally prevent the two of you from marrying simply because she doesn't like it. She needs a publicly relevant reason--if the two of you were too young, for example. If her only reason is the dictate of God, and another reasonable reason cannot be found, that's coercing in faith matters--turning your faith into the banner of our country.

Keep in mind--if marriage really is a sacred institution, then government discrimination really is interference in a faith matter. When a secular purposes and sacred institutions collide, that's a gray area (tax and regulation exemptions abound but aren't absolute), but when one man's sacred purpose interferes with another's sacred institution, that's not complicated--to each his own.

I think the most important point made in this post is that Ross would exclude some persons as president based on their religion. So he is no different from persons that would exclude Romney based on his religion.

Well, not really. I think most readers, left or right, would agree that saying "I won't vote for a Mormon" is qualitatively different than "I won't vote for a Scientologist." Sorry, but it's true.

Consumatopia:

but when one man's sacred purpose interferes with another's sacred institution, that's not complicated--to each his own.

Part of the problem is that the state's marriage isn't the sacred institution for anyone, in any case. If we were seeking to prohibit gay couples from saying "we're married" because their church married them, that would indeed be problematic for these reasons. But just because the state doesn't give me any special privileges because I'm baptized doesn't mean that the state interferes with my sacred institution of baptism. It just means the state isn't using it to guide policy.

I am an evangelical Christian who goes to an Independent Bible Church, and I would definitely vote for Romney, as opposed to pro-choice, pro gay rights, Guliani. Fact is, Mormons and most religious conservatives would agree on social issues.

If Mitt Romney was honest about what his Church really teaches about people who belong to other Christian churches no one other than a Mormon would ever vote for him.

Here's what Mormons really think about Christian faiths other than their own.

Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said: "There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).
Brigham Young stated: "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).
Brigham Young also declared, "He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312).
Bruce McConkie, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day stated: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
Brigham Young said, "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity." (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
Orson Pratt, an original member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces. ... Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent." (The Seer, p. 255).

Mr. Satterlee -

That was really not helpful at all. You haven't fulfilled your promise to tell us "what Mormons really think about Christian faiths other than their own"; you've just pasted quotes that tell us what Brigham Young thought about faiths other than his own.

I would guess that most Mormons are like most Americans who profess other creeds: they have bought into the doctrine of tolerance, and if anything are curious about their neighbors. The Mormons I know are like that, at any rate.

Also, if you are anti-Mormon (as you appear to be), you should avoid the phrase "Christian faiths other than [Mormons'] own." It gives the impression that Mormonism is a Christian faith, as "Christian" has historically been understood.

Which it isn't.

Dilan says something substantially identical to this in at least five posts above:

Don't you think your views on secularism would be different if some other religion was in the majority and was passing legislation to compel adherence to its views of fundamental questions by nonbelievers?

I am a Catholic, and my answer is no. These days, other religions (e.g., Protestant Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, etc.) tend to be allies on cultural issues; any legislation they passed on gay marriage, abortion, etc. would be fine by me. Hell, a decade or so ago the Pope worked with Qadhafi and other Middle Eastern dictators to oppose attempts in the UN to encourage population control, as the means employed would have been distasteful to Catholics and Muslims alike.

Your references to scary things that might happen - e.g., what if temperance-mad Protestants banned the use of wine at Mass - don't frighten me very much. The salient fact of your Prohibition example is that the worst did not happen - however anti-Catholic the Protestants in power at the time may have been, they didn't want to squash the free exercise of the Catholic faith.

Only secularists want to do that.

Well, Joe Magarac went 1 for 2.

With respect to the second point he makes, he is dead wrong. The only functional definitions of Christianity that exclude Mormons, i.e., definitions that focus on trinitarianism or the nature of God, also would make Christianity a tiny religion, because most of the Christian believers in the world don't subscribe to such beliefs.

If you adopt a functional definition of Christianity, i.e., the divinity of Jesus, Mormons are Christians. The fact that other Christians disagree with them on doctrine is irrelevant-- nobody (other than Jesus, if he really is divine) has a monopoly on deciding who qualifies as a Christian.

But on the first point he makes, Joe Magarac is absolutely right. At the time of Brigham Young, the Mormons were very exclusionary when it came to other Christian sects. I don't want to get into details, but portions of their temple ceremonies specifically condemned other denominations as agents of Satan.

But those ceremonies have been changed, and the Mormons have become much more ecumenical in recent years-- indeed, far more ecumenical than many of the evangelical denominations that condemn them.

Dilan Esper wrote: "Democrats voted for Romney in Massachussetts. Indeed, Mormons can get elected in heavily Mormon states (Utah, Nevada, Arizona) and in heavily Democratic ones (Massachussetts)."

Perhaps you have to live in Massachusetts to know just how different the Mitt Romney who ran and won in Massachusetts is from the Krazy Konservative Kretin who's bombing around the country hammering homos and promising a Reverse Jihad. The Mitt Romney who ran here was a swell friendly guy with a big Streisand collection who didn't even know what a fetus was.

I have no idea which Mitt Romney would serve as president if he wins, though I suppose he'd want to run again, so we'd see the triple-K Mitt for at least 4 years.

Is it possible that Dick Cheney's brain has been transplanted into Mitt's skull?

"Ross Douthat has argued in First Things that the rise of the religious right is merely "the Republican reaction against the Democrats' decision to become the first major party in American history to pander to a sizeable bloc of aggressively secular voters."

Ross, I'm fine with your adjective ("aggresively") to describe many American seculars, and I agree that the Christian right political movement was largely a backlash against liberal policies (this is mostly a matter of historical fact)--policies instituted, however, by the Supreme Court, not by elected officials of the Democratic party. But I find very strange your assertion that the Democratic party does now or has ever "pandered" to these aggressive secularists. Are you making the lazy pundit's leap, equating "gets the votes of" with "panders to"? When did they pander? When their president was a sunday school teacher, or a church going Southern Baptist? Do national candidates commonly try to score points by bashing Creationism, or railing against religious fanaticism? "We're religious too!" is a message repeated ten times as much as "minimize the role of religion in politics and society" by the top leaders of the Democratic party. In fact it's quite striking the degree to which the Democratic party national leadership departs from the secularism of many other ideological liberals, and indeed from the relatively irreligious tendencies of their own core voters. The behavior of the Dems seems to indicate that they assume the median voter is a Christian who wants to vote for a religious candidate.

It seems you are making the exact opposite mistake that Jon Chait is making. Chait thinks that Romney's opposition to gay marriage and abortion rights could only be "theological"; Romney's candidacy, in its social conservatism, is a theological appeal from Mormonism to Evangelical Protestantism. You on the other hand seem to think that support for abortion rights and gay rights--which indeed national Dem leaders do support--are necessarily secular views and thus Dems are "pandering" to secular voters in holding these views.

I read the blog occasionally and it's good. But--ugh--I just now see that your comment thread is terrible. Which makes it likely that you aren't reading this.

Joe Magarac,

You wrote: you've just pasted quotes that tell us what Brigham Young thought about faiths other than his own.

Actually I pasted a lot more more quotes than that. The quotes from Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce McConkie, who spoke with all the authorty that their Church falsely claims, saying "There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith," and "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," are from the 1970s and 1980s. Ezra Taft Benson who was president of the Church until his death in 1995 said, "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165). All mormons still believe these things, that their church is the only true Church and that all other churches claiming to be Christian are not really Christian but are really from Satan. I know these things to be true. I studied with Mormon missionaries for quite some time. Most Mormons however will never tell an outsider these things in just so blunt of terms. And certainly not a slick politician like Romney.

Jeremiah J. posts: "Ross, I'm fine with your adjective ("aggresively") to describe many American seculars, and I agree that the Christian right political movement was largely a backlash against liberal policies (this is mostly a matter of historical fact)--policies instituted, however, by the Supreme Court, not by elected officials of the Democratic party. But I find very strange your assertion that the Democratic party does now or has ever "pandered" to these aggressive secularists. Are you making the lazy pundit's leap, equating "gets the votes of" with "panders to"? When did they pander? When their president was a sunday school teacher, or a church going Southern Baptist? Do national candidates commonly try to score points by bashing Creationism, or railing against religious fanaticism? "We're religious too!" is a message repeated ten times as much as "minimize the role of religion in politics and society" by the top leaders of the Democratic party. In fact it's quite striking the degree to which the Democratic party national leadership departs from the secularism of many other ideological liberals, and indeed from the relatively irreligious tendencies of their own core voters. The behavior of the Dems seems to indicate that they assume the median voter is a Christian who wants to vote for a religious candidate."

Absolutely dead on. I remember cringing when Al Gore refused to denounce creationism, for example.

I'm quite sure Ross can't document this so-called "pandering" to the "secularists," since it has never happened - unless Ross is stupid enough to think that not requiring praying to Jeezus in public schools is "pandering." To rational human beings that just seems reasonable in a religion-neutral society.

Michael Satterlee, You wrote:All mormons still believe these things, that their church is the only true Church and that all other churches claiming to be Christian are not really Christian but are really from Satan.

As a practicing member of the LDS Church, I can say at a recent General Conference of the Church, a church leader, President James E. Faust,Second Counselor in the First Presidency,
spoke about the massacre of the Amish school children in Pennsylvania. He called the Amish Christian people.

"In the beautiful hills of Pennsylvania, a devout group of Christian people live a simple life without automobiles, electricity, or modern machinery. They work hard and live quiet, peaceful lives separate from the world. Most of their food comes from their own farms. The women sew and knit and weave their clothing, which is modest and plain. They are known as the Amish people."

It seems your knowledge of our doctrine may not be as accurate as you would like to believe.

Michale Satterlee
You obviously put some effort into finding items that support your understanding. However you did not necessarily get it right. In fact, if I might suggest bearing false witness of another does not always mean a conscious choice to lie. It can be just not finding out what the facts are before telling a story about someone else. It can mean taking things out of context. In discussing what Mormons believe it can be using century old ideas from long dead people and portraying them as what the Church believes and practices today. There is no way of asking the dead what they meant when they put their ideas to paper or gave a speech or commented casually to some one else. You can’’t know whether what was said or written or heard was was taken out of context or if there is anything that would alter old notions or ideas. You can’t ask a writer whether he still believes what he wrote as a young man or if age and wisdom made him think differently. You can’t ask a dead prophet whether what he said was doctrine or just a notion he had. These are all courtesies honest commentators would give the living today without thinking twice about it.

The LDS Church has long held that the only authorized version of any principle, doctrine or teaching must come from the Church itself. Given that the dead don’t talk for the living except in canonized scripture, honest writers and commentators of things Mormon should ask the Church for comments or input before making claims about what we teach or believe. If they don’t they risk bearing false witness.

What you quoted is inaccurate and misleading. Please do a better job next time.

Dilan writes:

The only functional definitions of Christianity that exclude Mormons, i.e., definitions that focus on trinitarianism or the nature of God, also would make Christianity a tiny religion, because most of the Christian believers in the world don't subscribe to such beliefs.

Can I get a cite for this? Every Sunday, Catholics, Orthodox and many Protestants recite the Nicene Creed, which was adopted in the 300s AD (or well after Mormons claim the first Christians had lapsed into apostasy) and which makes claims about God and Christ that are very different from the claims that Mormons make. By definition, then, the majority of self-identified Christians subscribe to truth claims about God that are incompatible with those propounded by Mormonism.

If you want to argue that bulk of these people are not paying any attention to the words they say and would deny any conflict between their faith and Mormonism if asked to do so, fine, but the burden of proof is on you.

Rick and JLF,

As I pointed out earlier: Brigham Young said, "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity." (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

I know for a fact that his position as to who are really Christians, "as the New Testament defines Christianity" is still the position of The LDS Church.

Yes, I am aware that Mormons sometimes refer to people who are not members of their church as "Christians". But when they do so they have in mind the dictionary definition of "Christian" - not 'the New Testament definition of Christianity'.

Is your church "the only true Church upon the face of the earth," or is it not? If you say that it is, then how can people who are members of other Christian churches, some of whom are ex-Mormons and people who have thoroughly studied your church's special claims and teachings and have rejected them be considered by your church to be true Christians?

You wrote: It seems your knowledge of our doctrine may not be as accurate as you would like to believe.

It seems you are now being just as deceptive on this issue as some flip-flopping politician when asked about his latest stand on abortion.

Marquis,

Part of the problem is that the state's marriage isn't the sacred institution for anyone, in any case.

They aren't two different parallel institutions--the state bureaucracy recognizes your marriage, it doesn't create a new parallel marriage. Refusing to recognize marriages for sectarian reasons is interference in sacred matters. It would be as though the government gave tax deductions and regulation exceptions to Protestant churches but not Catholic churches. Those deductions don't create a new parallel state churches--they recognize already existing ones.

If we were seeking to prohibit gay couples from saying "we're married" because their church married them, that would indeed be problematic for these reasons.

Some polygamy laws approached that, and that does indeed go too far.

If you want to argue that bulk of these people are not paying any attention to the words they say and would deny any conflict between their faith and Mormonism if asked to do so, fine, but the burden of proof is on you.

Joe, I don't have the burden of proving that people don't pay attention in Church. That's well-established.

Further, church attendence is way down, and a significant portion of the majority of Americans who call themselves Christian don't go to church at all, or don't go to churches that recite the Nicene Creed.

Mormons are Christians. The fact that some people want to say they aren't just establishes that they are still a persecuted group. Of course, so were the first Christians.

Mormons are Christians. The fact that some people want to say they aren't just establishes that they are still a persecuted group.

Wrong on both counts. First, if you asked the vast majority of the American Christian population (i.e., self-identified Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants), however devout, some basic questions about Mormon theology and asked whether they agreed or disagreed, odds are very good that they would disagree. For example, if you asked your typical American Christian whether Jesus was first begotten when God the Father - who himself had died and been resurrected on another planet - had relations with one of several spirit-wives in the pre-existence, they would like at you like you were crazy and say no. If you then asked whether someone who believed that was Christian in the standard sense, they would also say no. I don't have evidence to prove this, but since you seem indifferent to evidence I will just throw it out there.

Does the fact that most people, to the extent they give it any thought, recognize that Mormons are not Christians in the standard sense mean that most people persecute Mormons? Hardly. Jews aren't Christians either, but simply saying so isn't persecution; that happens when Jews are ill-treated simply by virtue of their being Jews. Are Mormons sometimes ill-treated simply by virtue of their being Mormon? Maybe, but I have neither seen nor heard of it. So far as I can tell, most people think of Mormons the way that the Simpsons think of Ned Flanders: as good neighbors with some odd beliefs.

Michael Satterlee
I had hoped you didn't want to get too deep into doctrine but would accept that you had not done your homework and would do better next time. So at the risk of putting some people to sleep, let me get into it a bit. I promise it will be just a bit.

Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. He is the only begotten (born in the flesh) of God. It is only through Christ that mankind will be resurrected. That came about by Christ's sacrifice (atonement)on our behalf. We worship Christ. No one can return to the Father except through Christ. We believe the Holy Bible to be the word of God. These things make us Christian.

What differentiates us from historical Christians is that we reject the fourth century view of the nature of God, Christ and The Holy Ghost as taught in the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian view of the Godhead in that it distorts what the Bible taught and Christ said. The Trinitarian concept of God's nature can not be found in the New Testament because it is a man made construct.

We also believe that there is an open scriptural canon. That is, God has a real live prophet and apostles on the earth today just as Christ established 2000 years ago. Christ said the church would fall in to apostasy but he would re-establish it in the latter days and so He has.

We do not hold historical Christianity in low esteem. To the contrary, we believe historical Christianity kept Christ's name alive in an otherwise pagan world and today continues to bring people to a belief in Him.

Another issue I have with your presentation is that you have taken statements out of context without foundation and claimed them to be our practice and theology. Just as you were incorrect about our belief in Christ, you should have asked about the context of your other statements. My friend you do not know enough about our beliefs to accuratley reflect them to others. Cherry picking things that support your notions and prejudices and presenting them as proof of your conclusions is bearing false witness. If you want to know what we believe please just ask us. You have not. Also, please recognize that the dead do not necessarily represent the living, even if they are authority figures from 150 years ago. Living prophets are better than dead ones.

First, if you asked the vast majority of the American Christian population (i.e., self-identified Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants), however devout, some basic questions about Mormon theology and asked whether they agreed or disagreed, odds are very good that they would disagree.

One could also say that about the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Catholics.

For example, if you asked your typical American Christian whether Jesus was first begotten when God the Father - who himself had died and been resurrected on another planet - had relations with one of several spirit-wives in the pre-existence, they would like at you like you were crazy and say no.

But that's stacking the deck. If you asked how many Christians say they have no idea if the orthodox Catholic story involving the virgin Mary is correct, the answer would be quite a lot. Mormons have particular doctrines other Christians don't accept-- so do Catholics.

Hardly. Jews aren't Christians either, but simply saying so isn't persecution; that happens when Jews are ill-treated simply by virtue of their being Jews.

But Jews don't CLAIM to be Christians. The reason why refusing to call Mormons Christians is anti-Mormon prejudice is because they claim to be Christians-- and since this is all a bunch of conjecture anyway as to what happened thousands of years ago, they have no worse claim to it than anyone else does.

Michael Satterlee
I forgot to add that we do not shy away from answering difficult questions. All we ask is that you ask us what we believe before telling others what you think we believe. You may not agree with what we say and that is fine. Honorable people disagree. I promise we will not hold you up to derision. I hope you do not feel that I did so in my post above. If so, it is not my intent and I apologize if you felt I was abrupt or unkind.

The message we bring is in fact your heritage. Your Father in Heaven wants us to bring it to you for your consideration. He will tell you personally whether it is true. That is not for us to do. Only the Holy Ghost can provide that confirmation. We have not been given license to present it in any fashion that Christ would not agree with. We have taken a vow to do so. This is not our message, it is Christ's and it is for you.

JLF,

You wrote: The Trinitarian concept of God's nature can not be found in the New Testament because it is a man made construct.

The doctrine of the Trinity (one God in three persons) was created in the fourth century to help explain what many then saw as contradictions in the scriptures. (There we find that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all called God.) It was also created to defend Christians against charges of being polytheists (worshipping more than one God). The doctrine of the Trinity explains that Christians worship only one God, who exists in three persons. The doctrine of the Trinity states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are simultaniously both three and one, in a way that our limited minds cannot understand. Is the doctrine of the Trinity a clear teaching of scripture? No. Is it a reasonable interpretation of scripture? Most Christians believe that it is.

It has been said that the Mormon church did not become so strongly anti-trinitarian until several years after Joseph Smith's original work on the Book of Mormon was created. The following Web site provides full color photographic scans of every page of an 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon.

http://www.inephi.com/Search.htm

You may want to compare it to your present BOM. When you do you will find nearly 4,000 changes have been made to it over the years, most minor in nature, such as correcting Joseph Smith's often poor grammer which cast doubt on his claim to have translated the BOM "word for word by the power of God." But several changes seem to have been clearly made to bring the BOM into confomity with your church's later established strong anti-trinity doctrine. The 1830 edition was not divided into chapters and verses. So only page numbers are here provided for the 1830 edition. The web site allows you to search and view all pages by page number. Chapter and verse are here given for comparison with today's version of the BOM.

1) First Book of Nephi, p.25 (1830): "Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh."

Today: 1 Nephi 11:18: "...is the mother of the Son of God."

2) First Book of Nephi, p.25 (1830):."...behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!"

Today: 1 Nephi 11:21: "yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!"

3) First Book of Nephi, p.26 (1830): "And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God was judged of the the world..."

Today: 1 Nephi 11:32: "...yea, the Son of the Everlasting God was judged of the world..."

4) First Book of Nephi, p.32; (1830): "...that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Saviour of the world."

Today: 1 Nephi 13:40 "..the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world."

You wrote: We also believe that there is an open scriptural canon. That is, God has a real live prophet and apostles on the earth today just as Christ established 2000 years ago.

So you say. But if that is the case then I guess I must now take the time to listen to everyone who claims to have been given some sort of revelation from God. The problem is that the world is full of such people.

Consider my own case. I listened to Mormon missionaries at my door several years ago. Shortly thereafter I prayed to God and asked him for his direction in the matter and on how I should respond to the two young men when they returned. Immediately I felt God directing me to open my Bible. When I did so I felt very strongly that God was impressing on my heart that his word the Bible is sufficient and that since its completion in the first century he has no longer inspired any more written works like it. How did God impress this on my heart? Immediately after my prayer I opened my Bible to the book of Psalms. There I found something I had not noticed before. I noticed that Psalms was divided into five separate books, not just chapters, but "books". So I picked up a Bible encyclopedia and this is what I found. I found that Psalms was originally written and compiled as five separate books, and that it remains divided into five separate books in all Bibles today. Book I, Book II, Book III, Book IV, and Book V. I am not talking about being divided into chapters and verses which were in most cases added many years later. I am talking about Psalms being, and always having been, five separate books.

The Bible is normally thought of as being "sixty-six books." But, as I believe God pointed out to me, because the Psalms themselves are actually five separate books, our Bible is really a collection of seventy books. And because the Bible itself often uses the number seventy to signify spiritual completeness and spiritual perfection, I believe God gave us a Bible made up of seventy books to tell us that the Bible itself perfectly complete and that it contains all the written revelations God would ever give to man. I also believe that by God giving us a Bible made up of seventy books God was telling us that we should reject the testimony of anyone trying to convince us that their new written work was inspired by God and is equal in authority to the Bible.

You wrote: Christ said the church would fall in to apostasy but he would re-establish it in the latter days and so He has.

You are half right. Christ said the church would fall in to apostasy and so did his apostles. And it did. Every Christian denomination on earth today remains affected, to a greater or lesser degree, by that apostacy. But Christ and his apostles never said that a perfect Christian church would be re-established in the latter days. Christ told a parable in which he said that he had sown a field of fine wheat and that after his going away Saten would oversew that field with weeds. He said a time would come when the weeds would be cut down and thrown into the fire. He called that time "the harvest." But Christ said said that "the wheat and the weeds will grow together until the harvest." (Matt. 13:24-30, 44-46) Now I suppose you can say that "the harvest" time Jesus spoke of was the time from Joseph Smith forward. But that would be a very imaginative twisting of the scriptures.

You wrote: We do not hold historical Christianity in low esteem.

To say that all Christian denominations, other than your own, are filled with false doctrines and remain greatly corrupted by the apostacy is not holding historical Christianity in low esteem?

You wrote: Also, please recognize that the dead do not necessarily represent the living, even if they are authority figures from 150 years ago. Living prophets are better than dead ones.

The quotes from Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce McConkie, which I posted earlier saying, "There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith," and "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," are from the 1970s and 1980s. Thats not exactly 150 years ago. But even if it was, the words of a true prophet are just as true wheter he is alive or dead. Daniel is dead. Elijah is dead. John the baptist is dead. Does that mean we should now consider their words to be of little value? Your statement about dead prophets makes no sense.

Let me ask you something. If I told you that an angel appeared to me and revealed to me that much of what you presently believe about God is entirely wrong, would you belive me? Of course not. You would think I was either a liar or crazy, or that the "angel" I claimed to speak with was actually a demon. If I asked you to pray about it and that maybe if you prayed long enough with an open heart and mind that maybe God would reveal to you that what I was telling you and what the angel told me was true, would you pray to God about what I had told you, keeping an open mind and heart on the matter as you did so? I doubt you would. Not if what I told you contradicted much of what you now believe to be true. That's where most Christians now find themselves when presented with the Mormon gospel, a different gospel than they have read about in the Bible.

For the apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 1:6-9: "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

Michael Satterlee writes: "For the apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 1:6-9: "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!""

Paul wrote those words long before the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation were written, and probably well before Luke, as well.

So I guess you're all damned!

But read here the Good News according to MoeLarryAndJesus, apostle of reason - there's no place to be damned to, unless Texas and Oklahoma count. Idiots, lunatics, and scared kids think Hell is real. No one else does.

JLF,

I also want to comment on your statement, "If you want to know what we believe please just ask us.'

It has been my experience that asking a member of some faiths about their church's official teachings and church history is not the best way to get accurate information about those things. The reason is that some churches which have some really unusual official teachings hardly ever openly discuss them with their own members and because they do not most of their ordinary rank and file members don't even know about some of their own church's official teachings. I have also found that some faiths with very controversial church histories have "whitewashed" their own accounts of their histories and then present those sanitized accounts to their members, while instructing their members not to read anything on the subject matter published by anyone other than the church itself.

Take the case of Lyndon Lamborn, http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon430.html
Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, says his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."
Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. He says church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church. "We need to let people know if there is a danger to them, such as him teaching doctrine that is contrary to what is taught by the church," Molina said Friday.

Lamborn, a member of the Thunder Mountain Ward, said his Mormon roots go back generations, with a great-grandfather in the famed Mormon Battalion that trekked from Iowa to San Diego in 1846 and 1847. Lamborn served a two-year Mormon mission in 1977-79 in Belgium, was elders quorum president four times and led a Mormon Boy Scout troop. Most recently, he said he was assigned to teach older men in his ward and held other roles. But everything changed in early 2005. Lamborn, an engineer employed at Boeing in Mesa for nearly 25 years, was asked by a work colleague about the wives of church founder Joseph Smith. She had read "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith" by John Krakauer and asked Lamborn if what she had read was accurate. Smith, the first LDS prophet and president, had at least 33 wives by many accounts. "Well, I had no knowledge of multiple wives, so I did some research, including using the church's own genealogical Web site, familysearch.org," Lamborn said.

He found the information concurred with the book. "Nonmembers seemed to know more about the personal life of Joseph Smith than me," he said. Lamborn conducted further research, which led him to question many church teachings. "I was planning to leave the church quietly, but was denied that opportunity, presumably because I was speaking openly to other members about my findings and (was) writing things down," Lamborn said.

Lamborn has compiled his research into a lengthy testament called, "Search for Truth 6/07," in which he states: "There comes a time in the life of many church members when the desire to know the truth about the church becomes stronger than the desire to believe the church is true."

Moe wrote: Paul wrote those words long before the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation were written, and probably well before Luke, as well.

But the Gospel of John, the Book of Revelation and the Gospel of Luke do not preach a different gospel than that which Paul preached. Neither the apostle John (who also wrote Revelation) nor Luke told people anything different than Paul did so far as what God requires of us for our salvation. Paul, John and Luke all tell us we must accept Jesus Christ as our Lord to be saved. The Mormon church tells us we must also accept their "prophets" and their Church in order to be saved.

For instance, Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said: "There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190). I can quote you similar statements made by several other Mormon "prophets." That is one reason why Christians say that Mormons preach a "different gospel" that the apostles preached. And because they do they are condemned by Paul's words in Gal. 1:8,9.

Moe,

The concept of Heaven makes little sense without a corresponding evil. Free will means that there are people who will not choose good, and Hell is the state in which they end up after death. If there is no hell there can't be a Devil either, and if there is no devil then evil can't be a real thing. but if evil is not real, than neither is good- how can anything be good without evil to define itself against.

I can understand not believing in heaven, but i find it hard to understand not believing in hell.

Michael Satterlee replies: "Moe wrote: Paul wrote those words long before the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation were written, and probably well before Luke, as well.

But the Gospel of John, the Book of Revelation and the Gospel of Luke do not preach a different gospel than that which Paul preached. Neither the apostle John (who also wrote Revelation) nor Luke told people anything different than Paul did so far as what God requires of us for our salvation."

Hoo boy, Mikey, are you wrong. Luke and John both present details from the so-called life of Jeezus that are nowhere present in the writings of Paul. Also, no serious scholars think the GOJ and Revelation were written by the same person. You need to do your homework. In any event, you don't dispute my point that both are LATER WRITINGS and so "add to the Gospel" after Paul warned against such. You know why you don't? You can't.

Early Christianity evolved often and constantly - and, uh, Constantine-ly, and was no more a settled doctrinal religion than Mormonism was a century after the "death" of its "founder." There are many Christians who have the intellectual integrity to acknowledge this.

The hacks and the liars, on the other hand, still need to pretend everything was nice and neat and just like Jeezus wanted it.

Moe wrote: LATER WRITINGS ... "add to the Gospel" after Paul warned against such.

Paul did not warn against "adding to the Gospel," as in giving us some additional details of Jesus' life. He forbid 'preaching a different gospel' than that which was then being preached by the apostles.

The gospel (good news) which the apostles preached was that if someone would simply accept in their hearts that Jesus Christ's death was sufficient to pay the price for all their sins and then repent from the sinful life they had been living, submit themselves to water baptism and begin living a new life as a follower of Christ, God would grant them forgives for all their sins, give them the gift of eternal life, and allow them to rule with Christ when he returned.

The Gospel of John, Gospel of Luke, and the Book of Revelation do not preach a different gospel than this. They do not add conditions to receive the reward offered by the gospel preached by the apostles. Neither do they change the reward which the gospel preached by the apostles offered. The Mormon gospel changes both the conditions and the reward. The Mormon gospel is a "different gospel."

Re: Every Sunday, Catholics, Orthodox and many Protestants recite the Nicene Creed, which was adopted in the 300s AD (or well after Mormons claim the first Christians had lapsed into apostasy) and which makes claims about God and Christ that are very different from the claims that Mormons make.

The Nicene Creed was created as a response to Arianism, and no one doubts that the Arians were Christians-- but Christians (according to the orthodox view) who had some wrong ideas. Why isn't the same logic applied to the LDS?

Re: Further, church attendence is way down

I'm not sure about that, because I'm not sure that regular church attendance was ever that much greater than it is today. What has changed is that large numbers of people who in the past identified themselves nominally with this or that church (and maybe showed up on Christmas or Easter due to family tradition) have now dropped the pretense and are calling themselves "secular", "agnostic" or even "atheist".

Re: First, if you asked the vast majority of the American Christian population (i.e., self-identified Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants), however devout, some basic questions about Mormon theology and asked whether they agreed or disagreed, odds are very good that they would disagree.

True, but so what? If you ask any Protestant about some uniquely Roman Catholic doctrine (say, the Immaculate Conception) they will disagree too-- and vis versa.

Re: The doctrine of the Trinity (one God in three persons) was created in the fourth century to help explain what many then saw as contradictions in the scriptures.

I'm sorry, but this is historically not true. The Three Persons are referenced in scripture: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The early Church Fathers wrote about the Trinity and, yes, there were disagreements. The Fourth Century Councils hammered out its precise details, but did not invent the doctrine as you are claiming.

Re: Luke and John both present details from the so-called life of Jeezus that are nowhere present in the writings of Paul.

Huh? Plutarch's "Life of Alexander" gives us details about Alexander that are not found in Diodoros' history of themanand his deeds. Does this mean one or both works are inaccurate and should not be heeded by a serious historian?

JonF

I wrote: The doctrine of the Trinity (one God in three persons) was created in the fourth century to help explain what many then saw as contradictions in the scriptures ... [and] to defend Christians against charges of being polytheists .
You responded: I'm sorry, but this is historically not true. ... The Fourth Century Councils hammered out its precise details, but did not invent the doctrine as you are claiming.

I did not mean to imply that the Fourth Century Councils created the Trinity doctrine out of nothing. When a new model automobile is created it is almost always largely based on a previously existing model. So of course was the Trinity doctrine. Its creation was based on ideas found both in the Bible and in the writings of several early church fathers. Your statement that, "The Fourth Century Councils hammered out its precise details" is a good description of how the Trinity doctrine formally came into being.

Re: So of course was the Trinity doctrine. Its creation was based on ideas found both in the Bible and in the writings of several early church fathers.

You are misuing the word "created" then. A more fitting phrase would be "The doctrine of the Trinity was formalized..." To "create" or "invent" something implies that it is genuinely new. No one, for example, would say that GM just invented the automobile because they came out with a new Plymouth model.

Jon F,

You wrote: To "create" ... something implies that it is genuinely new.

In the early Fourth Century the Trinity doctrine, as DOCTRINE, was something genuinely new. For the Trinity DOCTRINE had never existed before. Why is this true? Because a "doctrine" is "something that is taught" as "an established opinion."

The concept that the Christian God exists in three persons who are co-eternal, co-equal, and co-powerful had existed before, but not as church doctrine. The Trinity had existed before only as a general understanding held by many Christian theologians. It had not existed before as official church "doctrine." So for me to say that the doctrine of the Trinity was created by early Fourth Century church councils is not technically an incorrect statement.

But, as I said earlier, I would not word it quite that way again, for fear that someone might misunderstand me to be saying that the general understanding of God's nature which is expressed in the Trinity doctrine had not widely existed previously. For it certainly had.

It's all very simple. Mormons are not Christian.
And Rudy Giuliani is the only Candidate with the strength, experience and know-how to assume the job of President of the United States.

Thanks.

Re: In the early Fourth Century the Trinity doctrine, as DOCTRINE, was something genuinely new.

Because the Church was only able to establish itself as a legal and public entity in the 4th century all of its doctrines date no further back than that time since it had no means to regulate itself or formalize its theology before then. So pre-Constantine there were no Church dogmas (a better word here than "doctrine") there were just opinions widely held or not and disagreements over this and that. But nota bene: in the 4th century the question of the Trinity was brought into dispute not by someone proposing it as a novelty, but by Arius dissenting from it with his theory that Jesus was not divine but was rather a sort of super-angel who was created first of all things.

JonF wrote: Arius [said] Jesus was not divine but was rather a sort of super-angel who was created first of all things.

This is the essentially the same position taken by the Mormons today. I believe their problem in understanding Christ's deity in large part comes from their failure to understand a couple of things.

First of all, Einstein proved that time is only a dimension of our physical universe. And that time began when our physical universe began. Thus, if Christ existed "with God" (John1:1) before the creation of our physical universe He must have existed before time began, and His origin can truthfully be said to be "from everlasting," and "from the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2 KJV, NAS) So, though in one sense God's Son had a beginning, in another sense He did not. For if Jesus Christ has existed since before time began, when did He begin?

They also fail to understand what it means to be God's "Only Begotten Son." (John 3:16) To be "begotten," according to both the Biblical and dictionary definitions, means to be produced, not out of nothing, but from a parent's own body. For instance, the Bible tells us that Abraham "begat Isaac" "from his own body." (Gen.15:4; 25:19) And it is widely understood that Isaac pictured Jesus Christ.

Children who are begotten by a human parent, once they are full grown, are also absolutely equal to their parents in every way. In physical stature, in strength, in intelligence, etc. Granted, the child may not have the same position in business or government as his father but, in reality, that child is the parent's equal in every way. I, for instance, will always show my father the special honor a son shows to his father, but at the same time I will always be my father's equal. So, if Jesus Christ was begotten from his Father's own body, so to speak, before time began, he is both eternal (without a beginning in time), as Micah 5:2 says, and his Father's equal, as Philippians 2:6 tells us.

Another thing I kept in mind was that our fathers are three dimensional physical people. As such they occupy only a few cubic feet of space. As their sons, begotten from their bodies, we too are three dimensional people who occupy only a few cubic feet of space. For fathers who beget sons always do so "after their own kind," so to speak. Now the Bible tells us that God is not a three dimensional being occupying only a few cubic feet of space. (No, he does not reside on a planet orbiting the star Kolob.) The Bible indicates God is omnipresent. He exists everywhere at the same time. So, if Christ was begotten from God's own body, so to speak, and "after his kind," so to speak, He too would have God's own omnipresent nature.

When I was born the cord connecting my mother and I was cut. At that time I was no longer physically a part of either one of my parents. We soon became even more "disconnected" when I was placed in the hospital nursery fifty feet down the hall. Right now I might be in New York and both my parents might be thousands of miles away from me in California. But if God begat a Son after His own kind, so to speak, He and His Son would both be of the same substance, and thus both omnipresent. If this is so, it becomes very difficult to think of them as two separate Spirit Beings. And since they both have and send forth the same Holy Spirit, as Scripture says they do, from their mutual omnipresent position, it is not difficult to think of God as "three in one." In fact it then becomes more difficult to think of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate entities.

Re: This is the essentially the same position taken by the Mormons today.

No, that's the position taken by the Jehovah Witness sect--- whom everyone still accepts as Christian just as the ancient Arians were considered Christians. The LDS (at least as far as I can discern-- FYI, I have a step-sister who is a Mormon) do accept that Jesus is "consubtantial" with the Father, the problem is they believe that both are corporeal, material beings, a heresy with no ancient precedent to refer back to as even intelligent Pagans in that era conceived of the gods as spiritual not material in nature.

Re: First of all, Einstein proved that time is only a dimension of our physical universe. And that time began when our physical universe began.

This is not, strictly speaking, true. What "begins" is the special geometrical relationship between time and space, details of which require some high level math to appreciate; most I can say on it is that the opposite of the Pythagorean theorem applies in the time-space geometry in our universe. Einstein's theory makes no comment on anything "elsewhere/elsewhen" i.e., outside the boundaries of our geometry.

JonF,

You wrote: that's the position taken by the Jehovah Witness sect--- whom everyone still accepts as Christian

Your're right I did confuse the teachings of these two cults. However, there are an awful lot of people who do not consider JWs to be Christians, myself included, since they do not consider Jesus Christ to be God.

Michael Satterlee is anti-Mormon; knowing that ahead of time will prepare you to not be surprised as you read some of his cantankerous and biased comments.

Your're right I did confuse the teachings of these two cults.

What you call a "cult" has 13 million members, and rather than trying to molest children, bully people who threaten to quit, or leading its followers into self-destructive activities (i.e., the type of things that cults do), the Mormons lead pretty clean lives, devote substantial amount of time to service, and promote wholesome family living.

The Mormon lifestyle isn't my thing by a longshot, but anyone who labels this a cult truly is an idiot.

Dilan,

Sometimes I wonder why a certain group of secularist liberals fall all over themselves trying to defend people who have nothing but contempt for everything they stand for. I'm specifically referring to the strange love some liberals seem to have for Islam and Mormonism in particular.

Think about it. If you're going to defend one particular branch of Christianity you could have chosen the Catholics, the Anglicans, the Orthodox, the Lutherans. Maybe the Armenians or the Jacobites. If you wanted to be the partisan of some particular heresy you might have chosen the Manichaeans or the Marcionites or the Montanists. But instead, you choose to defend the most indefensible, the most patriarchal, oligarchic, materialistic, racist and sexist pseudo-Christian sect that is out there. The one that has a history of preaching that God is a physical being (as JonF points out, something that was too absurd for any heresy or pagan religion in ancient times- a heresy so absurd only a modern man could believe it.) The one that preached that Black Americans were the sons of cannan or some such nonsense. The ones who preach about the planet Kolob. The ones who said that when you die and go to heaven you get your own universe complete with your own harem of 'heifers' (this was the charming word that Bringham Young used to describe his wives.)

What is it that you find so wonderful about the Mormons and the Muslims?

I won't speak for Dilan, Hector, but as an atheistic secularist I don't see that Islam or Mormonism are any more ridiculous than any other religion. And since I do believe that people have the right to believe any of these very silly faiths are True and Good, it seems odd to me when another theist attacks them. I have occasionally defended them on that basis.

I have entirely missed what you claim is Dilan's (or anyone else's) "strange love" for these beliefs. No one here has expressed any such thoughts.

But instead, you choose to defend the most indefensible, the most patriarchal, oligarchic, materialistic, racist and sexist pseudo-Christian sect that is out there.

Hector, I would never defend the Mormon Church of the 1880's (polygamous) or even the 1960's (anti-black).

But EVERY religion looks really bad in its formative years. You don't have that view of Christianity because you weren't around to see it, but I assure you, it wasn't pretty, filled with polygamy, murder of perceived heretics, bigotry, etc. A few centuries in, what became the Catholic Church was able to organize the faith, put a hierarchy on top of it, set some rules, settle on doctrine and scripture, and expel heretics (which, again, wasn't pretty). As a result, the average modern believer is insulated from the power struggles of early Christianity.

In contrast, the average Mormon is entirely aware of the church's past sins. If you don't believe me, talk to some.

In any event, I am not sure why you say that Mormons are the MOST of all those categories you cite. More patraiarchal/sexist than Southern Baptists or Mel Gibson-style Catholics? More oligarchic than Adventists, Catholics, various Eastern churches, etc.? More materialistic than the "prosperity gospel" folks? (Seriously, the Mormons I have known would TRULY laugh at the materialism charge; these are people who spend a lot of time volunteering at the soup kitchen or living in very sparse conditions in the 3rd world on missions.) More racist than the Southern Baptists, who found a scriptural justification for both slavery and segregation?

I also should note that I agree with MoeLarry-- all religions involve having faith in things that were thought up hundreds or thousands of years ago with no particularly good evidence. So when other Christian sects go after Mormons as some sort of "cult", to put it in scriptural terms, they are ignoring the log in their own eye.

Here's what I will tell you, Hector. Go to Salt Lake City. You will find this beautiful, clean city with very little homelessness and crime, where the poor are generally cared for and where there is a diversity of cultures present (because Mormons from all over the world come to live there). To choose an example at random, Salt Lake is one of a handful of American cities where one can find a good Peruvian roasted chicken restaurant.

Tell me, after visiting Salt Lake City, how the Mormons are really this awful cult. It doesn't fit with the evidence to use the same term that one would use to describe the Branch Davidians to describe this faith.

My bet is that the real reason other Christian sects have such harsh words for the Mormons is because they have a more effective message and are a threat, not because they are a cult.

Dilan,

I'll get to your defense of Mormonism later. (Mormonism isn't worse than the prosperity gospel, it IS the prosperity gosepl. Except instead of just getting lots of money if God favors you, you also get your own universe and a harem of 'heifers'.)The Mormon heaven is a twelve year old boy's most self indulgent vision.

About early church history: There was no 'murder' of heretics for the first few centuries; the Church was not a state religion until about 320 (?) AD when Constantine converted. Heretics were still not being murdered during the time of St. Augustine (mid 5th century) since he explicitly stated that they were to be banished and/or stripped of civil rights, but not murdered. I'm not sure when the death penalty for heretics began, but probably no earlier than the 6th century....maybe JonF or someone versed in ecclesiastical history can enlighten us.

Moreover, the Catholic and Orthodox churches did not up and 'create' a hierarchy. The hierarchy was there almost from the beginning, as were several rival hierarchies. What happened was that the rival hierarchies were gradually excluded, suppressed, etc. (see the fate of the Marcionites, Montanists, etc.) This was indeed a nasty procedure and there were lots of virulent anathemas, vicious rhetoric, religious suppression and discrimination going on. But still, as far as I know, not a whole lot of murder. And certainly no polygamy. There was as far as I know no Christian group that ever practiced polygamy, with the possible exception of the sixteenth century Anabaptists under Thomas Muntzer.


I'm quite sympathetic to some of those heresies/heterodoxies myself and I think that they may have had interesting insights and that it's a pity we lost them. But the sins committed by the apostolic church are enough already without you having to make up fictitious ones.

And by the way, none of these things were 'power struggles'. In contrast to the struggles within early Islam, they were struggles primarily over theology and only secondarily over politics. The issues being debated were of intense importance to one's view of God and of the world. The Catholics and the Marcionites were not fighting over power, they were fighting over a vital theological question- was the Old Testament the work of God, or of the Devil? It's worth repeating by the way, that as JonF points out, the Mormon view of God was so preposterous that not even the most heterodox of the old heresies espoused it. There is no parallel in any early heresy, nor in any world religion I know of, to the idea that God is a corporeal being. Indeed, such an idea is so logically absurd only a modern man could believe it.

AK writes, "No non-leftist could allege that the 'conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy.' There are plenty of conservatives who do not support torture. By painting with such a broad brush, you reveal yourself to be a leftist. Don't try to deny it. You tipped your hand in your petulant response, again painting with a ludicrously broad brush:
If you're a conservative, your side loves--loves--torture
McCain is 'loathed by the right.' No one except a leftist could possibly think that.
And if you really think that it's only the 'far, far left' who supported and continues to support leftist dictatorships, you have forfeited your right to be taken seriously. You're a leftist."

Wow, where to begin? Hmm, first that "conservative movement" is not a phrase typically meant to denote each and every conservative, but rather those writers, activists, and politicians who work to secure and regulate the "conservative" nature of the Republican Party and the fortunes of that party. Ross, for example, would not be thought part of the "conservative movement' as most people understand it. Nor would, say, heterodox thinkers like Daniel Larison or Reihan Salam. On the other side, you would not call James Fallows a member of "the liberal movement." So your argument that it's implied that every conservative supports torture--which you apparently do not consider to include water-boarding, as you make a distinction between it and "true torture"--falls. And McCain is loathed by large segments of the right--that this was unqualified by the "large segments" is unimportant, since most intelligible people appreciate that terms like "the right" and "the left" do not describe uniform entities. And what left-wing dictatorship has the support of a sizable element of the liberal mainstream? (There may be one, but I can't think of it. So pray tell.)

Sorry, it was Great Banana, not AK, that made the ghastly distinction between water-boarding and "true torture"--we're talking about Torquemada's favorite technique here, not to mention the one that was able to crack KSM.

About early church history: There was no 'murder' of heretics for the first few centuries; the Church was not a state religion until about 320 (?) AD when Constantine converted. Heretics were still not being murdered during the time of St. Augustine (mid 5th century) since he explicitly stated that they were to be banished and/or stripped of civil rights, but not murdered.

Um, Hector, you are assuming that the only way perceived heretics get killed is through judicial process.

Moreover, the Catholic and Orthodox churches did not up and 'create' a hierarchy. The hierarchy was there almost from the beginning, as were several rival hierarchies.

Depends on what you mean by a hierarchy. There were certainly many churches claiming to be the true church, but it wasn't until what became the Catholic Church got state power behind it that it was able to set up a hierarchy that was effective (and which forced other belief systems out of the church).

And by the way, none of these things were 'power struggles'. In contrast to the struggles within early Islam, they were struggles primarily over theology and only secondarily over politics.

That's a distinction without a difference. The fact is, the reason why Christians believe what they now believe has to do with who was able to wrest control 1,700 to 1,800 years ago, not who carried the true message of Jesus (if indeed, there was one).

My point is, it's easy to poke fun at the Mormons because their history is out there for everyone to see. But Catholic / orthodox Christian history didn't look like it was particularly related to the search for divine truth when it was unfolding either. It's just that the Catholics and orthodox Christians have had over a millenium to clean up the books, and much of the recorded history that contradicts aspects of the official story, is either difficult to penetrate or has been lost to time. It's not because of the superior epistemic qualities of orthodox Christian beliefs vs. the beliefs of the Mormons, trust me.

AK: "(G)iven the opportunity, it would be nice if we could stop the evil of torture, just as it would be nice if we could stop the evils of poverty, disease, war, abortion, captial punishment, and famine. But you don't get to dictate how I allocate my time and resources."

Isn't the torture caused by American policy much, much easier to be rid of than war, poverty, disease, etc? I mean, it only happens because our government wills it to, not because it's a problem we're unable to solve. But now I'm going to stop wasting my time on someone who is clearly not only a moral idiot.

Dilan,

The Catholic/Orthodox church has certainly not 'cleaned up the books'. They have always been fairly open and honest about the fact that there were a great many rival belief systems within the Christian fold during the first few centuries (and to be fair, that kept cropping up during the Middle Ages as well). They were largely the ones who kept the memories of the ancient heresies alive so that they could use them to tar their enemies in later centuries with the brush of Montanism, Donatism, Pelagianism, Marcionism, Manichaeanism, and I don't know what else. Much of what we know about, say, Marcionism today is from reading the writings of its adversaries.

The Catholic/Orthodox have never pretended that these heresies didn't exist. The difference is that they would say that they were diabolically inspired, while you or I might say that while some of these heresies were certainly evil and absurd, others contained some measure of truth and insight amidst some foolishness. The Church might have a different interpretation than you or I, but they have never tried to suppress the facts. (They did of course have a penchant for accusing their heretical opponents of lots of spurious crimes like sodomy, incest, bestiality, witchcraft, and infanticide, but that kind of language wasn't uncommon in those days, and in any case its not hard to pass that by.)

If you can give me any examples of early Christian churches engaging in extrajudicial killing of heretics, I would like to hear it. The early Christian church was pacifist to an almost absurd extreme. It wasn't till several centuries after Christ that the Church permitted war, the death penalty, etc.; it wasn't till the Middle Ages that the Catholic church legalized torture. (And contrary to that ridiculous movie 'Braveheart', it was always very much illegal for a cleric to personally direct or order torture. Surprising that a Catholic like Gibson would make such an elementary error.) I would be very surprised if the early Christians killed anyone.

Re: You don't have that view of Christianity because you weren't around to see it, but I assure you, it wasn't pretty, filled with polygamy, murder of perceived heretics, bigotry, etc.

Huh? Polygamy was not allowed under Roman (or Greek) law, so unless the Christians you're talking about were living in Persia or Aithiopia, they weren't polygamous. There were Christians who kept concubines (a universal practice in the ancient world), but that isn't polygamous any more than Louis XV's relationship with Mme. Pompadour was polygamous. As for the murder of heretics, it's not impossible, but remember that before Constantine Christianity has no legal apparatus to persecute dissenters. Bigotry-- well, probably, since it's a universal hunmn sin, like greed and hatred.

Re: In contrast, the average Mormon is entirely aware of the church's past sins.

Most Christians are well aware of the Church's later sins, which put any misdeeds of the Apostolic era in the shade: Inquisitions, corrupt clergy, and all the rest. Secularists never cease to remind us of these things. (Nor should we forget them lest we repeat them; the secularist critics are doing God's work there)

Re: will find this beautiful, clean city with very little homelessness and crime, where the poor are generally cared for and where there is a diversity of cultures present

Actually, I found a fairly dreary, dirty city with the usual sullen panhandlers, and warnings about locking my car, and the most interesting sight was of an obese couple walking a black cat on a leash.

Re: There were certainly many churches claiming to be the true church, but it wasn't until what became the Catholic Church got state power behind it that it was able to set up a hierarchy that was effective

Actually, the Church in the late imperial period was riven by profound schisms, state power or no state power. And indeed, Christianity has never not been so riven-- but it was in the age of weakest government after Rome collapsed and Byzantium weakened that the Church was at its most unified.

Re: It's just that the Catholics and orthodox Christians have had over a millenium to clean up the books

Which is why no one ever heard about the Inquisition I suppose. Realistically, no church and no state had the means to do what you suggest until technology made totalitarianism possible in the 20th century. And the jury is still out as to whether such knowledge suppression can last forever as it has failed in several states that practiced it assiduously.

The Catholic/Orthodox church has certainly not 'cleaned up the books'. They have always been fairly open and honest about the fact that there were a great many rival belief systems within the Christian fold during the first few centuries (and to be fair, that kept cropping up during the Middle Ages as well).

Hector, a copy of several of the gnostic gospels was found buried in the desert because the authorities of the entity which eventually won the power struggle (when the state got on its side) and later became the Catholic Church were attempting to destroy all copies of them as heretical works, and someone had enough foresight to protect copies of them. The Church has not been honest about this.

If you can give me any examples of early Christian churches engaging in extrajudicial killing of heretics, I would like to hear it. The early Christian church was pacifist to an almost absurd extreme.

Hector, there was no "Church". There were numerous loose groupings of Christian followers who all had very different beliefs. And there was a power struggle, which what we now call the Catholic Church eventually won when it was able to get itself attached to the Roman Empire, which then used force and coercion to suppress heretical sects.

Then, the Church went back and rewrote its early history so that it could claim a lineage back to the Peter in the Bible by claiming that he eventually made it to Rome where the power center of the Church was.

The Church got its position of power by force, not because its teachings were somehow closer to those of Jesus than any other Christian sect. Then it used that governmental power to stamp out the competing sects.

I get the feeling that the fantastic growth of Mormonism is making some here pine for the "good old days".

Very interesting... as always! Cheers from -Switzerland-.

A little more about Mormonism that you may not have known.

Matthew16:15. Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
16:16. Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17. And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
16:18. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

What happened here is Peter received personal revelation from the Holy Ghost that Christ is the Messiah. Christ said that Peter was blessed for the revelation and that He, Christ, would build his church upon revelation by the Holy Ghost- not Peter. This is what the LDS Church has claimed from the very beginning. That personal revelation from the Holy Ghost is what Christ's Church is built on.