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Mitt Romney and Faith-Based Politics

20 Nov 2007 09:47 am

Jon Chait refers to me as "brilliant" in his latest TRB, no doubt in an attempt to defang my inevitable rejoinder to his critique of "faith-based politics" - but no such luck, Chait! He begins by complaining about evangelical Christians who might not vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon:

If it were possible for a politician to sue voters for religious discrimination, Mitt Romney would have an open-and-shut case against the Republican electorate. Here is a man possessing all the known qualifications for the job of GOP presidential nominee--strong communications skills, a successful governorship, total agreement on every issue, Reaganesque hair--and yet he may well be denied it on account of his faith. In a poll released in June, 30 percent of Republicans said they'd be less likely to vote for a Mormon. One conservative televangelist dispensed with the subtlety and warned his flock,"If you vote for Mitt Romney, you are voting for Satan!" These attacks have nothing to do with how Romney would conduct himself as president. They're purely theological. Romney's critics are declaring they couldn't support Romney on the sole basis that they consider Mormonism un-Christian.

Well, first of all, polls like this one (see Table 4) suggest that Democrats are more likely than Republicans to rule out voting for a candidate on the basis of his Mormon faith. Now maybe all those anti-Mormon Democrats are African-American Baptists or working-class Catholics, but Dems with a post-grad education are more anti-Latter Day Saint than Dems with just a high school degree, which at the very least suggests that there are plenty of secular voters who wouldn't pull the lever for a Mormon. Not, presumably, because they want to establish an "only Trinitarians need apply" standard for public office in the U.S., but because they consider Mormonism weird and cultish, and they don't want a President who buys into its tenets.

Now, I think this is a mistake where the contemporary Latter-Day Saints are concerned, but I don't think it's a mistake in principle. Having no legal religious test for office doesn’t mean that a candidate's religious faith isn’t worth considering when you're deciding whom to vote for. I probably wouldn't vote for a practicing Scientologist or a member of the Unification Church, for instance, for what I hope are self-evident reasons. I'd vote for a Mormon today, but I would have thought twice about voting for a Mormon candidate in the days of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. And even where my own faith is concerned, I wouldn't have thought it unreasonable for a Protestant American to be leery of a Catholic candidate for President in the era of The Syllabus of Errors. Taking these sorts of things into account is the essence of good sense, not evidence of religious bigotry.

Chait goes on:

Unless you yearn for a Romney presidency--which I don't, particularly--the real significance here is that nobody is challenging the premise of faith-based politics. Romney could argue that his religion is unrelated to how he would conduct himself in office, as John F. Kennedy famously did in 1960. But he hasn't done so, and,by all accounts, he won't. Instead, he is defending himself on theological grounds, trying to persuade social conservatives that Mormonism is more compatible with evangelical Protestantism than they think.

This seems to be basically wrong. Romney hasn't been giving speeches about how Mormon theology is consonant with Trinitarian Christianity. Instead, he's been dodging those kind of questions, while giving speeches arguing that his religious beliefs lead him to the same policy conclusions about abortion, same-sex marriage, and so forth, that conservative Catholics and evangelicals tend to reach. He's arguing that his positions on the issues are more important than their theological underpinnings, in other words, not the other way around.

I think that even this more minimalist theology-policy connection ticks Chait off, though, since he turns quickly from Romney to the big picture - his opposition to a "faith-based politics" that seems to embrace any intrusion of religious language or arguments into a political debate. He writes:

Advocates of faith-based politics take as their premise the inverted assumption that secularism is an assault upon faith. "Secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square," admonished Barack Obama last summer. The brilliant social conservative Ross Douthat has argued in First Things that the rise of the religious right is merely "the Republican reaction against the Democrats' decision to become the first major party in American history to pander to a sizeable bloc of aggressively secular voters."

"Aggressive" is a strange adjective here, given that secularists are not known for door-to-door proselytizing or massacring members of opposing religious groups. Secular political discourse does not place religious voters or candidates at a disadvantage. It merely denies them an advantage. A religious candidate can campaign on the war in Iraq or health care or gay marriage just as easily as a secular candidate can. But a secular candidate can't run on his faith in the way a religious candidate can. ("Secular," of course, means a lack of political religiosity, rather than a lack of religious belief.) Religion-infused politics places a massive handicap on candidates and voters who are secular or subscribe to minority religions.

I'll stick with the adjective. It's possible to be "aggressive," particularly in democratic politics, without physically bludgeoning someone over the head with your copy of Letter to a Christian Nation - and calling for an entirely "secular political discourse," and accusing those who stray outside its bounds of being "theocrats" or "Christianists" or what-have-you (I’m not fingering Chait here; just his co-unbelievers), seems pretty aggressive to me. Secularists who take this tack are essentially telling their fellow citizens that their deepest convictions, which often go to precisely the sort of just-society issues that politics is supposed to reckon with, are beyond the pale of public discussion. (Fr. Neuhaus made this point rather well in the recent Economist debate on precisely this subject.) So I can make an argument for racial inequality based on Social Darwinist theory, but you may not make an argument for racial equality based on the New Testament's vision of the nature of man. I can invoke Paul Berman in support of the invasion of Iraq, but you may not bring up Stanley Hauerwas to oppose it. I can make an argument against income redistribution based on Ayn Rand's Objectivist theory, but you may not make an argument for progressive taxation based on Walter Rauschenbusch's Social Gospel. And so forth.

I'll quote Neuhaus in response:

Our political system calls for open-ended argument about all the great issues that touch upon the question “How ought we to order our life together?” ... The idea that some citizens should be excluded from addressing that question because their arguments are religious, or that others should be excluded because their arguments are nonreligious or antireligious, is an idea deeply alien to the representative democracy that this constitutional order is designed to protect. A foundational principle of that order is that all citizens have equal standing in the public square.

Chait's chief complaint seems to be that the intrusion of religious language into politics inevitably leaves secular politicians and activists at a disadvantage. And he's absolutely right - by cutting themselves from metaphysical claims, secularists come to debates over justice and fairness, political right and political wrong, with arguments that can seem thin and bloodless compared to their religious counterparts, particularly in a country with a civil religion as potent as our own. But this is their free intellectual choice: Nobody's forcing them to disbelieve in the "endowed by their Creator" part of the Declaration of Independence (which lends that document an awful lot of its oomph). And it seems a little much to argue that in order to avoid handicapping their secularist fellow citizens, religious Americans should unilaterally disarm, divesting themselves of their own deepest convictions the instant they step into the political fray.

I do give Chait points, though, for coming up with an, um, unique rebuttal to the “what about MLK?” line of argument that always seems to flummox advocates of a purely secular politics.

Then we have the civil rights movement. This has become the social right's favorite example--a cuddly historical mascot for anti-secular politics. The argument is that, if you support Martin Luther King--and who doesn't these days?--you shouldn't have a problem with other kinds of faith-based politics.

It's certainly true that the civil rights movement was rooted in black churches and the language of religious liberation. But this was an artifact of a unique situation. Slavery, Jim Crow, and the one-party white supremacist character of Southern politics had destroyed every other possible outlet for African American politics other than the church. Civil rights activism took the form of preaching because that was the only form black politics could take.

There’s an important truth buried somewhere in this strange argument, which is that faith-based politics is more appropriately applied to deep political injustices than to superficial ones. When you invoke Biblical language to oppose slavery or segregation, abortion or an unjust war, there’s a consonance between rhetoric and reality that doesn’t exist when you invoke the New Testament to support progressive taxation or school vouchers.

But as I said, that point is buried; on the surface Chait’s argument is condescending and bizarre. It’s so kind of him to grant the civil rights movement permission to talk about Moses and the Promised Land, so gracious of him to let them appeal to their fellow Southerners’ Christian principles in making the case for human equality, so considerate of him to grant a special exception to the rule of secular politics. I wonder – just how many alternative political outlets would have had to be available to the civil rights movement to render MLK’s sermonizing speeches unseemly in Chait’s eyes? (Quite a few did exist, after all, starting with the NAACP – and of course as Christopher Hitchens never tires of pointing out, there were atheists and Communists doing their part for civil rights as well.) More importantly, where does one apply for the special License to Commit Faith-Based Politics that Chait grants to King and Abernathy? Is there an Office of Causes So Desperate That It’s Okay To Invoke the Supreme Being? (Maybe pro-lifers should camp out there, in the hopes that some kindly bureaucrat will smile on them one day.)

No, this won’t do. There’s no standard you can set that doesn’t fatally compromise the standing of religious Americans, and unduly privilege the interests (and prejudices) of their secular fellow citizens. Faith-based politics is often unwise and counterproductive, God knows. But it isn’t un-American; if anything, it’s more American than any purely-secular alternative. And so it should remain.

Comments (112)

Ross,

Chait's right: you're brilliant. But you're a coward.

The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy. Magazines you write for on a regular basis proudly endorse Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics. And we haven't heard a peep from you about any of it.

What's wrong? Afraid that The National Review won't publish anymore of your movie reviews? Sad, Ross, very, very sad.

Magazines you write for on a regular basis proudly endorse Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics. And we haven't heard a peep from you about any of it.

Since when does the left have a problem with the Khmer Rouge or any other leftist dictatorships?

That's what I find the most irritating about the embrace of torture by some on the right: it allows the left to pretend they're opposed to torture on principle. They're not. They're just opposed to Bush doing it. If Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro does it, who cares?

Very well done. The idea that "secular" language is somehow "neutral" language just simply doesn't hold water. The truth of the matter is that (as Eugene Volokh is always wont to point out) we all have basic moral, philosophical, or religious views that both conflict and cannot be adjudicated rationally. (This doesn't mean that they aren't rationally defensible - it's just that people in free societies come to different conclusions about basic moral claims and there's no reason to think that will ever change). So it makes no sense to say that someone should be able to make an argument rooted in hedonistic utilitarianism (surely a secular set of claims) and then turn around and say you ought not make one rooted in say a Biblical view of human nature (whatever that argument might be). And it's not the case that the non-believer is *necessarily* at a disadvantage here, since theistic arguments are not *necessarily* any better than non-theistic ones; rather, it's just that American culture has deep strands in it that resonate to religious language.

AK,

1. Nothing in my post indicates that I am a liberal, let alone a "leftist." It's called reading, AK. Try it.

2. True, there are some on the left--the far, far left--who supported (or at least apologized for) torture regimes. They were very much on the fringe, though. But the mainstream of today's conservative movement supports torture. The mainstream conservative presidential candidates (barring the loathed-by-the right McCain, of course) support torture; the mainstream conservative political magazines support torture; and the mainstream conservative think tank organizations support torture.

This is vile, AK. And you know it. Stop trying to change the subject. If you're a conservative, your side loves--loves--torture. That's evil. Do something to make it stop.

That goes for you too, Ross. Stop posting about movies and start posting about torture.

The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy. Magazines you write for on a regular basis proudly endorse Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics. And we haven't heard a peep from you about any of it.

What's wrong? Afraid that The National Review won't publish anymore of your movie reviews? Sad, Ross, very, very sad.

That's what I love about the left, every time they lose an argument, they change the topic.

Plus, as the commentator above stated, the left would probably be in a better position to make this argument if the regimes they have (and still do) supported (Kmer rouge; North Vietnam; USSR; Cuba, etc), ONLY used interrogation techniques such as water-boarding instead of true torture techniques. The fact that you equate water-boarding with "Kmher Rouge" torture techniques shows just how far from reality and facts you live.

It is sad when leftists try and take the moral high ground - as they generally do not even admit morals exist in the first place.

Wow. What a fantastic argument. I'm going to have to read it a few times to really let it sink in. As a practicing member of the LDS (Mormon) church, I have to say that I don't want Mitt to give the JFK speech in the sense that I don't want religion out of politics. It would be tough to make essentially moral arguments (life issues, caring for the poor and elderly, etc) based on the social contract and social evolution. The trick for Mitt is to express his values in a way that doesn't use LDS rhetoric (which is tough, trust me) and without using Evangelical rhetoric so he doesn't sound like he's pandering. How do you speak religion without sounding religious? Tough deal.

I think that Chait's point about the churches is that systematic white oppression left very few arenas open in which blacks could gather in number and voice their opinions - a very similar argument to why mosques became the only political rallying point in much of the Muslim world in the face of secular oppression, the leaders in power could not shut them down.

Perhaps Ross's response that there were the NAACP and various other secularists answer the point, but I think that otherwise he treats Chait's argument rather disingenuously by not engaging the 'religious infrastructure as institution, not as creed' idea. It is not a strange point - it is backed up by ample empirical evidence that blacks could not gather in the local civic center in loud, preaching numbers without getting lynched - and it goes far beyond just making the argument against Jim Crow more palpable to Whites.

True, there are some on the left--the far, far left--who supported (or at least apologized for) torture regimes. They were very much on the fringe, though.

That's just a flat out lie.

The Great Banana writes: "The fact that you equate water-boarding with 'Kmher Rouge' torture techniques shows just how far from reality and facts you live."

Meanwhile, Andrew Sullivan brings us a post with a photo captioned:

(Photo of a Khmer Rouge waterboarding, in a torture museum in Cambodia. They didn't get the Bush memo that the museum needs to be called one of "enhanced interrogation.")

Who am I to believe as to whether or not the Khmer Rouge used waterboarding to torture people - the Great Banana or the torture museum in Cambodia?

Nothing in my post indicates that I am a liberal, let alone a "leftist." It's called reading, AK. Try it.

It's called "reading between the lines," Jimbo. No non-leftist could allege that the "conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy." There are plenty of conservatives who do not support torture. By painting with such a broad brush, you reveal yourself to be a leftist. Don't try to deny it. You tipped your hand in your petulant response, again painting with a ludicrously broad brush:

If you're a conservative, your side loves--loves--torture

McCain is "loathed by the right." No one except a leftist could possibly think that.

And if you really think that it's only the "far, far left" who supported and continues to support leftist dictatorships, you have forfeited your right to be taken seriously. You're a leftist.

Just as a point of information,

1)There is no evidence, and in fact not even any serious allegations, that any torture has gone on in Venezuela since President Chàvez took office.

2)While there is reason to believe that torture went on in Cuban prisons in the '60s and '70s, I haven't heard any credible allegations about it happening more recently. certainly not from the main human rights organizations. The abuses in Cuban prisons traditionally took the form of deprivation of food and medicine (which are bad enough of course). In spite of that the death rate in Cuban prisons was fairly low, compared to other third world countries, and certainly there was far less torture than under the relatively civilized right-wing regimes in Argentina or Chile- to say nothing of the truly brutal right-wing regimes in El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, or the DR.

3) Torture did undoubtedly happen in North Vietnam. (it bears remembering that the country was in the middle of a war.) There was considerable debate about it in North Vietnamese government however, and reason to believe that torture was the product of Chinese influence on a Maoist clique. Ho Chi Minh, personally, was opposed to torture, argued against it, and went on national radio to issue a tearful apology for torture during the land reform campaign. And the South Vietnamese, of course, did more than their share of torturing as well.

There are enough genuinely brutal left wing leaders- Mao, Mengistu, Stalin, etc. - that it's not necessary to exaggerate the abuses of other left wing regimes.

If you're a conservative, your side loves--loves--torture. That's evil. Do something to make it stop. That goes for you too, Ross. Stop posting about movies and start posting about torture.

You're not the boss of me. I'll address the evil in the world on my own schedule.

There's a lot of evil in the world. Torture is one evil among many. If tortured terrorists want my sympathy, they can get in line behind about a billion other people.

So yes, given the opportunity, it would be nice if we could stop the evil of torture, just as it would be nice if we could stop the evils of poverty, disease, war, abortion, captial punishment, and famine. But you don't get to dictate how I allocate my time and resources.

Secularists who take this tack are essentially telling their fellow citizens that their deepest convictions, which often go to precisely the sort of just-society issues that politics is supposed to reckon with, are beyond the pale of public discussion.

The core issue missing in the logic is coercion. What the secularist (when sane) opposes is not faith, but the exclusion of pluralism. When you declare your religious book to be the guiding light of our state policy (or even explicitly reference your beliefs in state prayers and slogans), you convert the state into a banner for your religion, and require submission to American sovereignty to imply submission to your particular metaphysical views.

We currently grant religious institutions of all denominations a wide set of privileges from taxation and regulation. Sometimes the privileges one religion requests perhaps even offend the metaphysical views of another--see the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and drug use, for example. The separation of religion and state coercion works both ways--not because religion is some evil thing that we need to get rid of, but because religious autonomy is itself sacred. Even legitimate secular purposes like local zoning must bend somewhat when dealing with religious entities.

There's an irony here in that if you're an atheist there's no particular reason why religious autonomy is more important than any other kind of autonomy, but if you're a Christian it should be obvious--God wants us to come to him by our own free will, not by state dictation. The Christian submits to secular government only in secular matters--render unto Caesar and all that. You should be free to follow your faith's teachings which are holy and sacred AND free to not follow my faith's teachings which are profane and blasphemous--unless there is some publicly arguable and defensible reason to override that sacred autonomy.

That's not to say that no religious arguments are acceptable--those that can be mapped onto secular terms of justice/compassion/freedom/etc like slavery, segregation, abortion, war and even progressive taxation and school vouchers are perfectly sensible.

On the other hand, embedding Saint Paul's view of homosexuality into state policy would be a clear violation of religious freedom. It's completely arbitrary and difficult to defend in any terms but "God said so".

The point here is not to exclude certain categories of metaphysics, but to allow a great many metaphysical views to exist in the same physical space--either because freedom is inherently good, we believe missionaries of our metaphysical faction shall succeed in conversion, or we hope for some synthesis or evolution into better metaphysics.

Admittedly, quite a few secularists get this wrong too, to say the least. Chait might be one of them.

1. Great Banana: the Khmer Rouge waterboarded. The US, under Bush, waterboards. I'm sorry, but this is simply the truth.

2. Great Banana: if you think that support for the USSR and other torture regimes was a mainstream left-of-center position, then you're deluded. Could you direct me to those parts of past Democratic Party platforms calling for an embrace of North Korea?

3. AK: I assure you that I am not a leftist. Also, it's plain for all to see that opposition to torture as US policy is a decidedly minority position in today's conservative movement. I'm sorry but it's true.

4. AK and Great Banana: what's with calling people "leftists"? You do realize, I hope, that "leftist" is the typical term for someone on the far left who supports revolutionary socialism. Lenin and Mao were leftists. FDR, Truman, LBJ, and the Democratic Party--not leftists. Please, fellas, some terminological precision!

I've clearly touched a nerve. It looks as if some conservatives just can't stand the fact that their movement loves--loves--torture. Don't deny it, guys. (When Mitt Romney promises to "double Guantanamo" to appease the drooling right-wing hordes, you know there's a problem.) Do something about it.

The images evoked by "Khmer Rouge-style interrogation tactics" go a little beyond water-boarding. The fact that the U.S. government has sanctioned waterboarding in particular situations, on the one hand, and the fact that the Khmer Rouge also waterboarded people, doesn't really tell us anything important. In fact making the comparison is morally repugnant, since it either downplays the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge or implicates the U.S. government in them. The reason the Khmer Rouge evokes fear and horror is because they murdered millions of their fellow countrymen, including doing various grotesque things like cutting babies out of the womb in order to kill both mother and child. If all the Khmer Rouge did was waterboard people, they wouldn't be a monstrous example of inhumanity, and the moral taint you are trying to transfer to the U.S. government would be negligible.

The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy.

This is only true if one defines waterboarding as torture, and if one defines "in a specific circumstances where it is warranted" as "wholeheartedly".

Thanks for the giant non-sequiter, though.

On the other hand, embedding Saint Paul's view of homosexuality into state policy would be a clear violation of religious freedom. It's completely arbitrary and difficult to defend in any terms but "God said so".

Actually embedding _Saint Paul's_ view would certainly be problematic for the US political order, I agree. However, having policies (no gay marriage, no state sanctioning of gay relationships as such) that may be supported by some because of St. Paul's views is not problematic. Even public rhetoric in the democratic debate that raises Christian (which is not just Christian, of course -- orthodox Judaism and Islam are of similar mind here, as were many pagans if you look at history) sexual morality as a reason for this policy choice is appropriate. That a policy exists (in part) because of a religious view of a large portion of the population does not mean that the policy forces belief or embeds a theological doctrine. In its early days, it seems clear that both abolition of slavery and ending Jim Crow derived from Christian principles about the brotherhood of man -- this did not "force belief" on those who could no longer own slaves or segregate blacks.

When you declare your religious book to be the guiding light of our state policy (or even explicitly reference your beliefs in state prayers and slogans), you convert the state into a banner for your religion, and require submission to American sovereignty to imply submission to your particular metaphysical views.

Nonsense. This is the kind of hysteria that makes secularists so difficult to talk to on these matters.

Few things are more genuinely "coercive" than throwing around absurd accusations and blantantly misrepresenting the views of those who disagree with you.

Mike S.

1. Waterboarding is torture. Past US administrations always referred to it as such when other governments practised it.

2. Deroy Murdock wrote in the National Review that waterboarding--torture, remember--is something of which Americans should be proud. He actually wrote "proud." Sounds wholehearted.

I'm sorry, guys, but the conservative movement is now the torture movement. This is such a vile turn of events that it's almost impossible to believe. But it's true. Denying it won't do anyone--certainly not conservatives--any good.

Consumatopia,

It seems to me your argument goes wrong in thinking that if a democratic order imposed a particular policy choice *because* it reflected (in some way) their religious convictions, that would be impermissible in way not true of secular convictions. Why is that? You're right to note that "coercion" is a key component in this question, but the liberal (liberal in the broad sense of the term) protections of religious liberty limit religion's political involvement only to the degree that such involvement aims at coercing others in their religious beliefs and practices. That is, religious liberty protections mean that Ross can't make us all Papists. It doesn't say anything about the rationale citizens might employ in thinking about how the state should (or should not) act vis-a-vis sexuality. It seems to me that you're making something of a category mistake here.

I'm sorry, guys, but the conservative movement is now the torture movement.

Er, but a number of conservatives _don't actually endorse torture_, and some oppose it adamantly. Yes, there are conservative writers who do support torture. That's bad, I agree. But it is hardly the defining characteristic of contemporary conservatism (certainly not of the more "reactionary" strands), to the extent that, say, abortion-on-demand defines contemporary liberalism. FIRST THINGS, a bete noire of the anti-religious-right intellectuals, helped move my position on torture and "things that might be torture, but which one can genuinely argue about -- e.g., if they are used in training our own people" to a more committed absolute opposition, even in "ticking bomb" situations. Painting the right as monolithic here is simply unfair. Criticize writers who've supported torture, but don't pretend every conservative does, which is simply dishonest.

John, considering that "under God" is in the pledge of allegiance, it's pretty obvious that we explicitly require submission to the state to imply submission to God. You could argue that the pledge and coinage God references are of minor consequence, and I'd be inclined to agree, but you can't plausibly deny what you quoted.

Consumpatopia,

But if the pledge and the coinage invoke this problematic requirement to adhere to metaphysics -- well, then it's old enough and non-controversial enough that I think you should just give up. The American political order is, on your terms, theocratic. Maybe you can change that, but if _those_ are the indicators, then you probably have a lost cause. It seems to weaken your case, in fact -- if "under God" and "in God we trust" counterexample the secular order you desire, then I see no reason to assume that order had any normative force in American politics, and thus can safely stop worrying about its arguments, as I would dismiss the right-wing weirdos who talk about how the wrong naval flag flies in a courtroom and they "can't really" be taxed on their income because of some subtle logical contradiction in the relevant amendment.

It seems to me your argument goes wrong in thinking that if a democratic order imposed a particular policy choice *because* it reflected (in some way) their religious convictions, that would be impermissible in way not true of secular convictions. Why is that? You're right to note that "coercion" is a key component in this question, but the liberal (liberal in the broad sense of the term) protections of religious liberty limit religion's political involvement only to the degree that such involvement aims at coercing others in their religious beliefs and practices.

I agree with this except to the extent that you're ascribing the former view to me.

I just take a broad view of "religious beliefs and practices". Marriage, in particular, is a sacred religious institution. The state should not discriminate between the marriages recognized by one church and those recognized by another unless it has a very good secular reason. Incest and polygamy: good secular reasons for opposing. Gay marriages: not good secular reasons for opposing.

I think the applies more broadly--if the only arguments you can come up with are religious ones, that probably suggests that the thing in question is a religious practice, and imposing your will over the practice is an imposition of religious belief. But it definitely applies to sexuality--our love for God requires freedom to love (and therefore not love) God, and that is also true of our love for each other.

This does not mean that religious arguments for state policy are automatically crap as I guess Chait would argue--but those that don't have readily available secular arguments are suspect. It would be like I drew a metaphor from a novel where some state policy is bad in the same way some character is bad. If pressed, I should be able to explain why the novel's moral implications hold true in the real world. Citations to the Sermon on the Mount are equivalent to those to Orwell or Kafka--pertinent to policy because of the author's insight not the author's authority.

AK thumps: "Torture is one evil among many. If tortured terrorists want my sympathy, they can get in line behind about a billion other people."

In other words, AK loves the idea that "terrorists" are being tortured.

As GOP hero Rudy Giuliani said when asked if torture is wrong, "It depends on who does it."

This is the actual position of the vast majority of those who call themselves "conservatives" today. It is most certainly the position of 99% of the National Review gang.

But if the pledge and the coinage invoke this problematic requirement to adhere to metaphysics -- well, then it's old enough and non-controversial enough that I think you should just give up.

Actually, I think it's people who disagree with me on this point who should be disheartened. It's pretty clear that such things persist simply as the "junk DNA" of politics--they're old and harmless and people are fixated on them so let the baby have his bottle of ceremonial deism if it shuts him up. Elsewhere, religious autonomy seems fairly intact.

Honestly, when I read the first clause of your first sentence, I thought you'd write "if this is the best you can come up with, what are you complaining about?" And that would be true--I mostly like the status quo, accept on things like homosexuality which seem to be trending my way anyway.

Seriously, if Roe v. Wade doesn't make you give up, kindergarten chanting and coinage won't make me give up.

OK, let's get away from torture and back to Ross' post

First of all, Father Neuhaus is an idiot and I don't know why Ross quotes him. Neuhaus actually wrote that he thinks that it is reason enough to vote for Romney that he will promote a "false" religion (take the log out of your own eye, Dick!). As if the President is the Pope or something!

Second of all, on the merits of this, no, Ross, it ain't Democrats that are anti-Mormon. Democrats voted for Romney in Massachussetts. Indeed, Mormons can get elected in heavily Mormon states (Utah, Nevada, Arizona) and in heavily Democratic ones (Massachussetts). They can't get elected in states filled with conservative Protestant and Catholic bigots.

And most importantly, I think this really comes down to how nutty you think Romney's faith is. Yes, I would vote against David Koresh because of his religious beliefs. But Mormons aren't the Branch Davidians. Indeed, if we are going to get into comparative religious beliefs, Catholocism as practiced by right-wing Catholics is a lot "weirder" than Mormonism. But I am sure that Neuhaus and Ross would have NO problems with a person who said "I think anyone who believes that a cracker and wine turn into the blood and body of Christ, and that we can know that a woman who lived 2,000 years ago never had sex, is a complete whack-job and shouldn't be President". Right?

Incest and polygamy: good secular reasons for opposing. Gay marriages: not good secular reasons for opposing.

But there ARE numerous secular arguments that have been made against gay marriage, based on demography (or mere respect for tradition and "social conservatism" in the deep sense of not tinkering with what is important but not well understood). Moreover, your claim that there are good secular reasons for A and B and not for C is not some fundamental truth that everyone debating agrees with -- it's a controversial claim that you make. You don't have to sign up to that statement to enter the door of American politics, you know! In other words, if this is merely an "argument" you want to give in pursuit of _your_ policy preferences ("don't listen to these folks, their arguments are a kind we should not allow here") -- fine. If you want to pretend that some fundamental character of American democracy makes this a normative claim, however, you're barking up the wrong tree.

I'd note that I'm actually more open to polygamy than to gay marriage, myself. I dislike polygamy, and think it's a bad idea, but if the Muslim population (that was interested in polygamy) was large enough -- why not? The secular arguments seem about as abstract and "social sciency" as the anti-gay-marriage arguments, and the tradition is ancient, in many parts of the world.

And sure, Roe makes me want to give up on the whole order of American politics, and consider revolutionary alternatives, on the bad days. Arrogations of power, overthrowing both morality and democracy in one fell swoop, tend to do that to you. But I'll stick it out a little longer.

John, considering that "under God" is in the pledge of allegiance, it's pretty obvious that we explicitly require submission to the state to imply submission to God. You could argue that the pledge and coinage God references are of minor consequence, and I'd be inclined to agree, but you can't plausibly deny what you quoted.

Who's the "we" here? Conservatives? Americans in general? The schoolteachers who make their kids recite the Pledge? The people who added that phrase in to distinguish us from the Godless communists?

Sorry but that's about as weak of an argument as you could possibly make. I believe in God and believe that our nation is (metaphorically) under Him, but I don't think that you're disqualified from being a good American unless you "submit" yourself to Him. Hell, I don't even think you're required to believe what the Pledge says ...

But there ARE numerous secular arguments that have been made against gay marriage, based on demography (or mere respect for tradition and "social conservatism" in the deep sense of not tinkering with what is important but not well understood).

Marquis, I agree that there are secular arguments against gay marriage-- I don't buy them, but they are out there and do have to do with tradition and the like.

But remember, the anti-gay agenda goes beyond gay marriage. I don't think there are ANY arguments other than bigotry (and bigotry dressed up as religious belief is still bigotry) for enacting an entire government program against gays and lesbians, including no civil unions, no enforcement of contracts between partners, no employment discrimination legislation, no open gays in the military, no gay adoptions, reversing Lawrence v. Texas and restoring sodomy laws, etc.

When you look at the whole package of conservative policies on gays, it's clearly all about homophobia, not simply preserving the traditonal definition of marriage.

There's an irony here in that if you're an atheist there's no particular reason why religious autonomy is more important than any other kind of autonomy

Well, there is the first amendment.

The core issue missing in the logic is coercion. What the secularist (when sane) opposes is not faith, but the exclusion of pluralism. When you declare your religious book to be the guiding light of our state policy (or even explicitly reference your beliefs in state prayers and slogans), you convert the state into a banner for your religion, and require submission to American sovereignty to imply submission to your particular metaphysical views.

What, exactly, is wrong with making this argument, though? That's the whole point of politics - to determine what we will require submission to, and what we don't. Secularists are equally demanding that people submit to their particular metaphysical views. One must distinguish between disagreeing with a particular position and arguing that it is improper to make the argument in public in the first place.

For example, we don't have the federal government arrest the racists like David Duke when they argue for explicitly racist policies. The likes of Chait don't typically argue that the David Dukes of the world should be able to make their arguments in public - they just reject such arguments as bigoted and wrong. But when it comes to Christians arguing that our public policies should be different than they are with regard to abortion, or that they should not change to accommodate same-sex marriage, Chait et al. don't simply argue that they are wrong, they add the extra dimension that says that it is improper to make such arguments in the first place in the public square if they are religiously motivated. Which, as Ross points out, is contrary to the American way of doing things.

Look at it this way: if Romney was out their making theological arguments that Christians should embrace Mormonism, or that nonbelievers should convert to Mormonism, would he be leading in polls in Iowa or New Hampshire? The fact that he's leading means that he is appealing to people based on common ground: namely that they agree with his positions, or they think he'll do the best job as President. As Jonah Goldberg pointed out in the Corner, liberals never raise an eyebrow when Democrats use religion as a basis for their arguments - it's only when people use religion to argue for policies that they disagree with that they turn to the "no religion in the public square" position.

There will always be some possible secular explanation for religiously inspired policy. Sometimes they're not very deep and shouldn't be taken seriously. You can cite tradition for, say, the treatment of Dalits in India. Tradition is a valid thing to cite, but it's not absolute. Tradition is a vague reason not to screw with things for no reason, but once we have good reasons it doesn't have much force, especially in a society that's already as dynamic as ours. We have plenty of traditions that we've discarded like toilet paper, the argument for keeping this particular one while losing all the others doesn't really stand independent of St. Paul's brief mention. If marriage really is a sacred institution then it deserves religious autonomy. It's arguable whether the threat of becoming an illiberal, unequal society like those that tend to practice polygamy is worth limiting that autonomy, but I see no such plausible threat with gay marriage.

Admittedly I'm just asserting that the secular argument against gay marriage is too weak to stand independently and not actually providing evidence for it, but I think we've had that out elsewhere and I don't imagine either of us sees much utility in starting it again.

On the subject of the disheartening, if you don't mind me inquiring, what do you plan to do if a pro-choice, pro-torture candidate wins the Republican nomination?

likes of Chait don't typically argue that the David Dukes of the world should be able to make their arguments in public - they just reject such arguments as bigoted and wrong. But when it comes to Christians arguing that our public policies should be different than they are with regard to abortion, or that they should not change to accommodate same-sex marriage, Chait et al. don't simply argue that they are wrong, they add the extra dimension that says that it is improper to make such arguments in the first place in the public square if they are religiously motivated. Which, as Ross points out, is contrary to the American way of doing things.

I don't think "improper" captures the secular objection to these things. Obviously, if a Catholic wants to say that we shouldn't have abortion or capital punishment because scripture, or the Pope, or natural law prohibits it, that's within the person's right of free speech and people can consider the argument on its merits.

What us secularists have a problem with is this-- there are many people in this world who, for lack of a better term, think that any particular religious belief is complete unmitigated BS. This includes not only atheists and agnostics but also lots of believers who either have a different faith or who may even have the same faith but are not as doctrinaire or literalistic or accepting of the infallibility of the leadership of the church.

So when someone says that government should discriminate against gays or that a woman should be forced to bear a child because "God wants it", to many people, that claim is no more persuasive or binding than a claim that "my imaginary friend wants it". It is unprovable, unjustifiable, and based on a mystical experience that many of the rest of us don't share. And when implemented, it interferes with another person's ability to live his or her life.

Now I do realize that the civil rights movement and other movements that were unarguably good have made religious arguments. But that's not more persuasive to me than saying a stopped clock is right twice a day. Restricting someone's liberties based on the "orders" of another person's deity seems like the assertion of raw power. It is a recipe for adherents of majority religions to lord over the rest of us, not because their beliefs are true but because they have control of the apparati of the state.

And I think conservative Christians need to think about what it would be like if they lived in a state that was not secular-- as they seem to fear-- but rather was controlled by devout adherents of another religion. Would they enjoy living under a law that prohibited lending at interest? Would they enjoy living under a law that prohibited them from attending a college football game on a Saturday? Would they enjoy living under a law that prohibited alcoholic beverages, even for sacramental purposes? Remmber, mainstream faiths as influential as yours believe that God ordained those things.

You see, all this appealing to religious premises for legislation that infringes the liberties of nonbelievers and members of other faiths looks good only if you are a member of the faith that controls the government. The best argument for a secular society is that if we were all behind Rawls' veil of ignorance, we would all choose it, because we would have no idea whether we would belong to a majority religion or a minority one.

Sorry but that's about as weak of an argument as you could possibly make. I believe in God and believe that our nation is (metaphorically) under Him, but I don't think that you're disqualified from being a good American unless you "submit" yourself to Him. Hell, I don't even think you're required to believe what the Pledge says ...

I appreciate that, but if saying/believing the pledge isn't necessary to be a good American, well, what's the point of having it?

the argument for keeping this particular one while losing all the others doesn't really stand

In case you hadn't noticed, most actual conservatives (vs. a fairly large group of people who like capitalism very much but have no actual conservative inclinations) are really really really really really really against "losing all the others" too. Heck, a lot of us would like to roll back some of the lost traditions. So that's not much of a point.

Well, there is the first amendment.

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act goes beyond the First Amendment. Not all secularists agree this is a good idea, but Christians should understand why it is--because autonomy in sacred matters is especially important.

That's the whole point of politics - to determine what we will require submission to, and what we don't.

The point is that coerced religious submission is a special kind of no-no--in our society's core we value autonomy in the realm of the sacred in a way that we don't value, say, freedom from taxation.

Secularists are equally demanding that people submit to their particular metaphysical views.

The secular, plural bargain is basically a way of negotiating between different people's metaphysical and value systems. We give every person a share of autonomy within which they act according to their own understanding of what is worth doing. The activies that are most sacred to us, such as religious ritual and sexual relations, are given the wider space than more mundane things like interstate commerce. Admittedly, this does not please everyone--some people believe it is their sacred duty to coerce others into following their faiths' teachings. It seems, though as wide as we can get without contradiction.

It is not that the arguments are wrong and bigotted, it is that they attempt to coerce people in matters of faith. And that's actually what's against the American tradition.

The best argument for a secular society is that if we were all behind Rawls' veil of ignorance, we would all choose it, because we would have no idea whether we would belong to a majority religion or a minority one.

Oh dear heavens. That's not true, I hope. I'm in favor of _some_ elements of secularism, by and large, at least as a practical if not theoretical matter. If the best argument for _anything_ relies on Rawls' much-beloved let-us-abstract-until-we-have-vanished-up-our-own-navels "veil" then there are no good arguments for that thing, if you ask me.

On the subject of the disheartening, if you don't mind me inquiring, what do you plan to do if a pro-choice, pro-torture candidate wins the Republican nomination?

Not sure. Probably vote for the Republican, grudgingly, on various other grounds (there's precious little I can think of where I _prefer_ Democratic policies), but not be happy about it. See Hadley Arkes in FIRST THINGS this month for more on that.

In case you hadn't noticed, most actual conservatives (vs. a fairly large group of people who like capitalism very much but have no actual conservative inclinations) are really really really really really really against "losing all the others" too. Heck, a lot of us would like to roll back some of the lost traditions. So that's not much of a point.

Once the barn door is open there's no point in shutting the windows. So if you're just doing to gays what you'd like to do to everyone but can't, I hope you'll forgive the rest of us for not taking that seriously.

Admittedly, this does not please everyone--some people believe it is their sacred duty to coerce others into following their faiths' teachings.

So I assume you're adamantly against government funding for abortion, which coerces people to fund what their beliefs teach is murder?

Oh dear heavens. That's not true, I hope. I'm in favor of _some_ elements of secularism, by and large, at least as a practical if not theoretical matter. If the best argument for _anything_ relies on Rawls' much-beloved let-us-abstract-until-we-have-vanished-up-our-own-navels "veil" then there are no good arguments for that thing, if you ask me.

Marquis, you didn't answer my point; you just bashed on Rawls.

Here is a situation where whether one views the actions of the government as a oppressive and illegitimate or simply the expression of the natural order of things depends almost completely on whether your religious faith is in the majority or not.

And my problem with right-wing Christians' anti-secularism arguments is that they seem completely naive about how any of these policies seem to an adherent of ANOTHER religion, or an atheist or agnostic. Or what a Muslim or Mormon or Orthodox Jewish state following the same principles would do to right-wing Christians.

This is what makes the veil of ignorance a good tool in this circumstance; how you feel about this depends almost completely on whether you have the power to enact your preferences rather than someone else enacting their preferences.

Secularism says we're going to screw all the religions. I can see why religious believers don't like that, but that's much better than somebody forcing you to do something because a nonexistent (in your mind) diety allegedly ordered it.

Yes, I know, the ratchet of history only moves left, progress is inevitable, etc. etc. etc. Maybe, but I don't know that it's true in the long run, and anyway -- simply keeping some of the traditions we still do have seems like a valid goal, and thus far, at least, it hasn't actually failed in this case, unless an anti-democratic elite-opinion-fiat has established victory. Clearly the anti-gay-marriage movement has to be "taken seriously" at least for the next twenty or so years. I'll grant you have the young people -- but they also look, in many polls, more pro-life than your current cohorts, so perhaps there will be gains in other ways.

If social science starts demonstrating more persuasively that conservatively normative ways of life tend to better human results, then some trends may have a more powerful counterforce than they do now.

So I assume you're adamantly against government funding for abortion, which coerces people to fund what their beliefs teach is murder?

Money is a form of coercion, but it isn't the same as coerced practices.

Indeed, I have this argument with my fellow liberals who think that school vouchers are unconstitutional. Forcing us to pay tuition for some students at religious schools (which already happens at the collegiate level) is simply not the same as forcing us to engage in religious practice.

But that also means that forcing a believer to pay for an abortion he objects to is not at all similar to forcing a woman to carry to term an embryo because some believers think that a God that the woman doesn't believe in says the embryo has the same rights as a born person.

We all have to pay for things we don't like. How many pacifists have to pay taxes to fund the Iraq War? But drafting a pacifist to fight the Iraq War would be quite different, correct?

But, Dilan, my claim (and that of most American religious conservatives) is not that we want to enforce Christianity on everyone. It is that secularist policies (the ones talked up as secularist, vs. things that are simply not much relating to religion, such as the precise structure of most zoning codes) enact the preferences of people who believe certain metaphysical claims -- i.e., that an embryo has no moral standing, or that gay sexual relationships deserve as much recognition as heterosexual ones. That's not a neutral ground, it's a claim itself, and the pretense (highly irritating) that the _secular_ assumptions (or assumptions of some "liberal" religious folks, sometimes based on religious claims, for that matter) are not preferences, but some privileged neutral ground -- that's ridiculous. It's annoying. And it's false.

If the argument were whether everyone should be required to go to Mass, or observe the Sabbath, or acknowledge a Creator, then you'd have a good point. But outlawing abortion is no more this kind of thing than anything else. The problem is not just that I dislike Rawls, but this even misapplies Rawls -- you're asking for a veil of ignorance on your beliefs, not just your status. So, how do I know if I'll be someone who believes it's ok for the state to regulate the minimum wage I can pay someone, or someone who doesn't? Well, I guess we should maintain neutrality, because my freedom to pay people below the minimum wage will be trampled otherwise, in case I end up one of the folks who doesn't believe in mimimum wages! If you were applying this to more aggressive impositions of religious beliefs, rather than second-order morality sometimes derived from religion, it'd be a much stronger argument. As it is, it seems vaguely disruptive of anything other than a hyper-libertarian government, because hell, I might end up in the land where everyone believes in taxing all income at 100%, so I'd best not allow taxes at all.

From a conservative point of view, not particularly religious, though I think Christianity will have problems with this, too, based on an incarnational view of history, the problem with Rawls is that it pretends there is no history, that we are standing in an epistemological wasteland where we must only argue about structure, and never about content, because we don't get to observe content. But that's not reality, it's nothing like reality. Things exist in a context, a world, with a history, and an order already exists. Rawls takes the anti-reality nature of utopian thought (right or left, really) and elevates it to the level of the only principle of justice.

So I assume you're adamantly against government funding for abortion, which coerces people to fund what their beliefs teach is murder?

I would be on the fence, as my autonomy model privileges bodily control over financial control, though I haven't decided by how much.

Yes, I know, the ratchet of history only moves left, progress is inevitable, etc. etc. etc.

Actually, I was thinking out rather than left--like expecting an expanding gas to contract itself back into it's original container. Good or bad, The expansion is done and seemingly not undoable. The social entropy of, say, divorce, completely washes out any social order preserved by the absence of gay marriage.

If social science starts demonstrating more persuasively that conservatively normative ways of life tend to better human results, then some trends may have a more powerful counterforce than they do now.

Probably true, though I think there would be more resistance to ordering the fundamentals of their lives to the results of studies in the same way we adjust our diet to new nutritional studies.

I would be on the fence, as my autonomy model privileges bodily control over financial control, though I haven't decided by how much.

But that's _not_ about bodily control -- I'm free to get married in the US, but the state doesn't have to pay for the wedding. I'm free to have sex, but Uncle Sam doesn't make everyone pony up to give me viagra. You can't pretend making me PAY FOR someone else's right (geez, I like the right to go to Church -- can I get you to pay for my gas to drive there?) is about their having that right.

It is that secularist policies (the ones talked up as secularist, vs. things that are simply not much relating to religion, such as the precise structure of most zoning codes) enact the preferences of people who believe certain metaphysical claims -- i.e., that an embryo has no moral standing, or that gay sexual relationships deserve as much recognition as heterosexual ones.

But that's false. One can have a completely secular society where abortion is prohibited (because there are many secular arguments against abortion), gay marriage is not recognized (until recently, every secular society on the planet was like this), etc.

You are acting like adopting secularism RESOLVES all the culture war arguments. I don't see how this is true unless one of the central arguments made by cultural conservatives-- which is that there are arguments based on natural law and reason for their positions-- is actually false and the whole enterprise stands or falls on religion.

The problem is not just that I dislike Rawls, but this even misapplies Rawls -- you're asking for a veil of ignorance on your beliefs, not just your status.

We treat religion as a form of status, and for good reason. Unlike other beliefs, it both goes to the core of our being and really isn't very susceptible to rational argument. We believe the abilities of human reason to resolve the question of, for instance, whether a hawkish or dovish foreign policy will better reduce the threat of terrorism. However, human reason can't settle the question of the divinity of Jesus, or whether Muhammed ascended to heaven on a golden steed, or whether Moses spoke to God on top of the mountain.

So what we say, as a society-- and I am sure you support this-- is that you can't discriminate against somebody in employment or the receipt of government benefits, etc., on account of religion. We treat it like race. We assume that it is not like one's other beliefs.

And once religion is understood as a form of status, I think the veil of ignorance can usefully apply here.

As I said, though, you are still missing the broader point. Don't you think your views on secularism would be different if some other religion was in the majority and was passing legislation to compel adherence to its views of fundamental questions by nonbelievers? Isn't it undeniable that conservatives who decry secularism are assuming that Christians will always control the levers of government?

You can't pretend making me PAY FOR someone else's right (geez, I like the right to go to Church -- can I get you to pay for my gas to drive there?) is about their having that right.

Relative to the importance of the right and the cost of paying for it, I would. Keep in mind that I get forced to pay for lots of things that suck (Iraq) and I want to force other people to pay for lots of things they hate (schools, hospitals, police, fire, whatever. In cases where the autonomy gained is much larger than the autonomy lost, go with it.

On abortion in general I'd be on the face, but on, say, emergency contraception--yes, definitely, the government should guarantee that stuff is available to any women who asks at some reasonable price. The autonomy over the womb gained vastly outweighs my autonomy over my wallet.

I should emphasize that I think the secular arguments for banning abortion are more reasonable than those against gay marriage.

five previous Mormons ran for President....no
questions or problems....Why now? I am
Presbyterian....Listen up if you did notquestion
John Kerry on how he could continue with his
Catholic faith ....which has paid out over 2 Billion to family's for rape of members,since
the late fifty's. Priest going to prison,The
Cardinal from Boston cAN't think of his name
just before the previous Pope died he promoted
him to the Vatican...This Cardinal had full
knowledge of all going on in his Diocese,so we
have no right to question the Mormon faith.

You are acting like adopting secularism RESOLVES all the culture war arguments.

No, I misunderstood you. I thought you were acting like that. Some secularists -- Consumatopia seems to think this way, and Garry Wills and some others on their bad days -- do seem to think that if we all agree "let's not impose my religion on anyone" then, whammo! presto! it does settle the culture wars. Abortion and gay marriage are the neutral default, not policy choices. Doesn't look like that's your position.

I should note aside that I'm a little more skeptical about religion as an "unchosen" and irrational decision than you are. Kierkegaarde is well and fine, but most people's politics are also unchosen at the large-scale level, and I converted to Catholicism as more a matter of intellectual assent (originally) than of some fervent "feeling." Pure emotionalism is an enemy of faith and religion, just as it is an enemy of science.

Dilan: yes, I do think that. Of course. But this like saying "would you feel differently about police stopping terrorists if the state were a Nazi regime and the terrorists were the resistance?" Well, yeah. That's because the universe is not content-free -- it's not just "does someone have the power to do something" but "what is being done?" This is a major point where (I think) Burkean conservatives depart from libertarians.

""The conservative movement has wholeheartedly embraced torture as official US policy.""

/shrug

This doesn't even rise to the level of B.S.

Torture is in-fact, the official BIPARTISAN policy of the US, and has been since the Clinton administration reversed policy going back to Jimmy Carter and began the rendition of suspected terrorists to countries where they were certain to be tortured.

While many on the political Left now decry Bush for engaging in "torture", they kept their mouths shut when Clinton outsourced it to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. And they also seem remarkably mute in the face of the failure of a now Democratic Party dominated Congress to even investigate the use of waterboarding by the US government, let alone take any steps to criminalize it.

The only honest thing that can be said here is that _some_ on the right are not hypocrites on the issue, unlike virtually the entire left which whines and whines and whines about the policy, but followed the same policies in the recent past, does absolutely nothing about that policy now and which will continue to follow the same policy if a Democrat is sitting in the oval office in 2009.

The issue most Conservatives have with "gay marriage" is the undemocratic re-definition of "Marriage" by courts angle. After all, if an absolute minority of people can get the supreme court to re-define crucial terms in their favor, why can't ANOTHER minority so win special favors?

If they want the change of law and it's 'reasonable' then go for a constitutional amendment. Ditto with abortion. If it truly was "on demand" and the People loved the idea, then a simple Congressional law in 1973 would have been do-able, or an amendment. But that's not what happened.

Most of the Left's major victories have come via the courts, not the ballot box. And that's what energizes alot of otherwise non-political people to wade into politics as Conservatives.

It's not our side that's been using the force of government to ram rod beliefs on people via government regulation and rulings that are imposed by courts rather than our elected representatives!


Marquis,

I agree with you that religion should not be treated like race or 'status' or whatever that means. People do change their religious views after all. I did, apparently you did, so do lots of people.

I would say though than many people adopt a new religion (or politics, or whatever) largely on the basis of personal experience, sentiment, vision, etc., not on the basis of cool rationalism. Pure emotion may be the enemy of faith, but so is pure reason; pure reason can't actually prove or demonstrate very much. I would argue that our innermost sentiments are probably less easily deceived than our reason. It's easy to make rational arguments in favor of torture, or abortion, or whatever other evil you choose. Much harder to overcome one's innate emotional- one could say, 'natural'- revulsion to actually handling the red-hot poker or the vacuum tube. I suspect that if we invoked a bit more sentiment about helpless little babies and so forth, and a little less talk about natural rights, we would win the abortion debate in short order.

Tertullian's famous argument, after all, 'Look at the beauty of a wildflower, thus do I refute Marcion', was nothing but an appeal to the heart and to the sentiments, and was all the more powerful for that.

I should note aside that I'm a little more skeptical about religion as an "unchosen" and irrational decision than you are.

I am really not saying it can never be chosen, and I don't think my argument depends on whether it is irrational either. My point is that for enough believers, religious belief is a matter of faith and a central part of their self-identity, and for these reasons, it makes sense to treat it as if it were innate.

Dilan: yes, I do think that. Of course. But this like saying "would you feel differently about police stopping terrorists if the state were a Nazi regime and the terrorists were the resistance?" Well, yeah. That's because the universe is not content-free -- it's not just "does someone have the power to do something" but "what is being done?"

Obviously, what is being done matters. But the problem is, I think that anti-secular conservatives are screwing up the theory of liberal democratic government to do what they think should be done. The reason why secularism is so important is actually a fundamentally conservative insight-- that empowering a government to push us to be more virtuous (as defined by any particular belief system) empowers the government to push us in other directions as well.

So, hypothetically (again, I know there are other arguments against abortion, but I am demonstrating a point here) if the US government, at a time when the majority of the country is Christian, decides to outlaw abortion, expressly because the correct teaching of God is that a zygote has the same rights as a born human being, then we are endorsing the principle that any religious majority can utilize the power of the state to impose its religious beliefs-- on pain of imprisonment-- on those who think that they are complete bunk.

Establishing that principle as a governing principle means that down the line, you could be compelled to do things you don't want to do. An obvious example of this is imagine if the Protestants who brought us prohibition had ginned up (pardon the phrase) enough anti-Catholic bigotry to get a law written that had no exception for sacramental wine, and as a result, priests started getting arrested for giving communion to their parishoners. I would think a conservative Catholic would be very concerned with a theory of government that said "as long as the protestants have the votes to do that, the only objection is that banning alcohol is not a sensible policy". Do you really want religious freedom to hang on nothing more than that? Don't we know enough about "zero tolerance" in the war on drugs context (which itself has impinged on, for instance, the worship practices of Native Americans) to know that this isn't really enough protection?

You see, what religious conservatives really receive from the secular society is something they don't recognize but which is very important; the principle that, down the line, somebody won't be outlawing their conduct based on the teachings of a "false God". That's a very important principle; one that works a lot better than simple majoritarianism (which is what we use to determine whether the policy is correct).

Hector: no arguments here!

Dilan, I'm not arguing against constitutional order. I'm probably, in the final analysis, more skeptical of pure majoritarian arguments than you are (the identification of populism and conservatism on some issues is mostly accidental, I think). I just disagree about what the would lead us to prohibit -- in particular, I think that most things you and I would both agree should be outlawed depend more on a metaphysics than you would admit. EVERYTHING is some "majority" or group with power imposing on a potentially unwilling group.

Hector: no arguments here!

Dilan, I'm not arguing against constitutional order. I'm probably, in the final analysis, more skeptical of pure majoritarian arguments than you are (the identification of populism and conservatism on some issues is mostly accidental, I think). I just disagree about what the would lead us to prohibit -- in particular, I think that most things you and I would both agree should be outlawed depend more on a metaphysics than you would admit. EVERYTHING is some "majority" or group with power imposing on a potentially unwilling group.

EVERYTHING is some "majority" or group with power imposing on a potentially unwilling group.

Not if countermajoritarian institutions are maintained.

I realize it drives conservatives crazy, for instance, when school prayer which 80 percent of the public supports is banned by the Supreme Court, but as I said, religious conservatives will be thankful for countermajoritarian secularism when it is some other religious group pulling the strings of the state.

And remember, countermajoritarianism has some important successes. Brown v. Board of Education, for instance, was countermajoritarian. So were much of the Warren Court's police procedure decisions. The Federal Reserve is countermajoritarian (the public would generally prefer a much more inflationary monetary policy).

Countermajoritarian secularism is an insurance policy that protects your liberty against a religious majority that worships a false God and leaves reason aside in justifying its policies. I say that is a very good bargain for everyone, including religious conservatives.

But Dilan -- countermajoritarian institutions themselves are an imposed power that not everyone likes. They don't have some special ontological status that makes _them_ not instruments of power, maintained in part by force (and consent, but to the unwilling to consent, by force).

I mean, I'm on board for countermajoritarian institutions, but somebody isn't, and is presumably thus being imposed on. If nobody is imposed on, then you don't need a constitutional or state structure at all, because nobody would imagine actions that would go against those countermajoritarian points.

No, I misunderstood you. I thought you were acting like that. Some secularists -- Consumatopia seems to think this way, and Garry Wills and some others on their bad days -- do seem to think that if we all agree "let's not impose my religion on anyone" then, whammo! presto! it does settle the culture wars. Abortion and gay marriage are the neutral default, not policy choices.

I guess I wasn't clear--I do not think secularism makes the abortion debate go away. But I do think the neutral default is "you do your thing, I do mine", and if someone wants to override that, they should have sufficient secular reasons for doing so. (They can have religious ones on top of that, e.g. MLK jr.) There's still lots of arguments to be had--gay marriage is just one of those few issues like school prayer where one side runs flagrantly out of bounds--the bounds being