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Race, the GOP, and Paul Krugman

19 Nov 2007 02:44 pm

His latest column is yet another broadside in the whole "does race explain the Republican realignment" argument, and as you might expect, it combines convincing specific examples of Republicans playing the race card in the South with totally unconvincing macro-level analysis. For instance, there's this:

... everyone knows that white men have turned away from the Democrats over God, guns, national security and so on. But what everyone knows isn’t true once you exclude the South from the picture. As the political scientist Larry Bartels points out, in the 1952 presidential election 40 percent of non-Southern white men voted Democratic; in 2004, that figure was virtually unchanged, at 39 percent.

First, as Matt has pointed out, the fact that the bulk of the white-male shift occurred in the South doesn't mean that white males were simply changing their party allegiance in response to GOP race-baiting. Most white Southerners were conservatives - on God, gays and guns, among many other issues - who happened to vote for the more liberal party in the '30s and '40s because it was the segregationist party, and once that issue receded, and the Republicans moved rightward, you would have expected them to shift to the more conservative party even in the absence of dog-whistle politics.

More importantly for the sake of this example, 1952 is a really poor baseline to use for comparisons to present-day politics, since it was an exceptional year - a Republican landslide in a Democratic era, created by Eisenhower's celebrity and ostentatious moderation, Truman's unpopularity and Stevenson's mediocrity as a candidate. Ike took 55 percent of the vote to Stevenson's 44 percent, meaning that the GOP vote was much higher than the FDR-to-LBJ norm in almost every demographic category - and for Bush to match Eisenhower's share of the non-Southern white-male vote fifty years later while winning only 51 percent of the vote to Kerry's 48 suggests that conservative have made gains between then and now in that demographic, rather than just treading water as Krugman suggests.

Moreover, even if the Republicans had merely tread water it would still be an impressive achievement, given that a rightward shift - all other things being equal, which they weren't - would have been expected to produce a 1964-style result, in which the GOP consolidated the South and lost ground everywhere else. Arthur Schlesinger famously announced that the results of '64 proved that "if the parties were realigned on an ideological basis ... the Democrats would win every election and the Republicans would lose every election." It was an entirely plausible contention at the time, and Krugman's "race explains everything" narrative doesn't explain why he was proven wrong.

Then there's this:

Ronald Reagan was among the “some” who tried to benefit from racial polarization ... True, he never used explicit racial rhetoric. Neither did Richard Nixon. As Thomas and Mary Edsall put it in their classic 1991 book, “Chain Reaction: The impact of race, rights and taxes on American politics,” “Reagan paralleled Nixon’s success in constructing a politics and a strategy of governing that attacked policies targeted toward blacks and other minorities without reference to race — a conservative politics that had the effect of polarizing the electorate along racial lines.”

This is one way to put it. Another way to put it is that Reagan paralleled Nixon's success in constructing a strategy of governing that attacked policies targeted toward minorities that were obviously failing - more obviously by the 1980s, certainly, than in 1968 - and deserved to be attacked. But to acknowledge this part of the story would be to get in the way of Krugman's conclusion:

Why does this history matter now? Because it tells why the vision of a permanent conservative majority, so widely accepted a few years ago, is wrong.

The point is that we have become a more diverse and less racist country over time. The “macaca” incident, in which Senator George Allen’s use of a racial insult led to his election defeat, epitomized the way in which America has changed for the better.

And because conservative ascendancy has depended so crucially on the racial backlash — a close look at voting data shows that religion and “values” issues have been far less important — I believe that the declining power of that backlash changes everything.

Memo to the Democrats: Please, please listen to this man. Convince yourself that the Republicans' current difficulties have everything to do with the waning of racism, and nothing to do with conservative victories on crime, welfare, and taxes and the declining salience of those issues in the public consciousness (not to mention the party's Bush-induced loss of foreign-policy credibility). Persuade yourselves that the liberalism of the 1960s and 1970s has absolutely nothing apologize for. I can think of no surer guarantee of a GOP comeback.

Comments (64)

I don't deny your broader point, which is that there is a lot more to the GOP's success than race.

But I nonetheless think you are trying to let the GOP off the hook in a couple of big ways:

1. Reagan was, like many in the GOP (e.g., Trent Lott, Strom Thurmond), a supporter of segregation who reformed himself just enough to seem acceptable decades later.

Yes, I know, conservatives claim his opposition to civil rights laws was purely on libertarian grounds. But there's a way to oppose civil rights laws on libertarian grounds. You say "I think people who refuse to rent to blacks are contemptible and evil. But the principle of property rights is important, and the same principle that protects the bigoted jerk's right to refuse to rent to black people protects your right to refuse to rent to someone you have reason to believe will not pay his or her rent." You do not say, as Reagan did, that if a person doesn't want to rent to blacks, that's his right and leave it at that.

People who say the things that Reagan said are bigots.

2. You cite Southern attachment to God and Gay issues. But those issues arise out of the same bigotry as the race issues do. Yes, a lot of Southerners hated or still hate Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, secular people, agnostics, and atheists. And a lot of Southerners hate gays. So the fact that they voted on those hatreds as well as their hatred of blacks exonerates them or the Republicans exactly how?

Mr. Douthat,

Whether the policies that Republicans advocated were right or wrong, helpful or harmful is an important issue but a different one.

It is people like yourself, presumably embarassed by being part of a party which has benefitted from support from racist whites, who wishes to downplay the importance of that obvious fact. I haven't read Krugman's work so I am unsure if he overplays it.

You're not arguing that white southerners "attacked policies geared towards minorities that were obviously failing" because of a sincere desire to help those minorites, are you? If so, that means that the actual minorities effected by these policies are either too stupid to realize that they are being hurt by policies while clever white racists realize it, or they are deliberately voting to promote policies which they do realize are hurting them and their community (I'm not sure why they're supposed to be doing that.) Or maybe its both...minorities are too stupid to know what's good for them or to do what's good for them...I guess that's pretty much the conservative view of things...but mind you, they're not racist.

It would be more admirable if such people would just admit that they vote Republican because they feel it is in their selfish interests and they don't really care much about African American people, except to prefer that we build lots of prisons and bolster residential segregation to keep "them" away.

Don't misunderstand me, it is possible to really care about the poor and minorities and have different views on those programs but that is not what was going on with Reagan and those who voted for him, and really, Mr. Douthat, I think you know that.

You're not arguing that white southerners "attacked policies geared towards minorities that were obviously failing" because of a sincere desire to help those minorites [sic], are you?

Maybe not, but couldn't he be arguing that they attacked them because of a sincere perception that they weren't working?

Reagan made an honest attempt to appeal to both white southerners and black people based on his views of a free economy along with strong national security.

Black men, including Shelby Steele, Bill Cosby,and Alvin Poussaint in condemning contemporary black social behavior, especially on the issue of fatherhood, are actually far more outspoken than Reagan ever was on the subject of race.

The Democrats talk a good populist game on supporting racial minorities with various policies of redistributing income along with essentially the rhetoric of class; the Republicans at their best ignore this and stress fundamental economic issues along with individual and family responsibility, to say nothing of appointing such able people as Powell and Rice.

Krugman, a credible economist, is out of his depth on social and political issues.

Mr. Leavitt,

Bill Cosby? What in the world does he have to do with what we are talking about?

I don't actually disagree with anything Bill Cosby has been saying lately, but it is unbelievable how right wingers think he is agreeing with them or somehow validating their opinions.

Mr. Cosby has been a long time supporter of Democrats, in fact, quite liberal Democrats, like Maxine Waters and Jesse Jackson, Jr. During the 1980s we are talking about he was supporting Jesse Jackson Sr. for president.

Oh, yeah, Reagan was trying to appeal to Blacks..do you even believe that?

John,

What exactly does "not working" mean in this context?

I think Republicans promoted a myth that somehow the government was extending large amounts of assistance to people, including many minorities, that they did not deserve.

This is a ridiculous myth that is wrong on so many different levels...which is a big part of the reason why the debate over whether the programs "worked" or didn't work is really an entirely different issue.

I am trying to figure out what Mr. Douthat is arguing, I don't know, but vastly larger sums of money go to defense contractors or other corporations (corporate welfare) than ever went to poor people of any race? Do those programs work? That all depends on what they are designed to do...many of them accomplish little other than putting money into the pockets of interest groups which support politicians...which is what I pretty much think they're designed to do.

It is simply a lie to suggest that Ronald Reagan was a segregationist.

Note also how the strategy of winning southern whites over to the GOP was actually predicated on the GOP switching to support civil rights.

see:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/books/phillips-emerging.pdf

"Maintenance of Negro voting rights in Dixie, far from being contrary to G.O.P. interests is essential if southern conservatives are to be pressured into switching to the Republican party--for Negroes are beginning to seize control of the national Democratic party in some black-belt areas."

Moreover, even if the Republicans had merely tread water it would still be an impressive achievement, given that a rightward shift - all other things being equal, which they weren't - would have been expected to produce a 1964-style result, in which the GOP consolidated the South and lost ground everywhere else.

In the interests of precision, Mr. Douthat, Barry Goldwater carried just five Southern states in 1964; Lyndon Johnson carried the other eight Southern states. A number of Republicans were elected to Congress that year from states like Alabama, where the party had not been competitive in decades. Over the period running from 1952-1994, the Republicans generally acquired an electoral advantage in the peripheral South in advance of comparable gains in the deep South. The 1964 election was an exception to that rule.

Yes, I know, conservatives claim his opposition to civil rights laws was purely on libertarian grounds. But there's a way to oppose civil rights laws on libertarian grounds. You say "I think people who refuse to rent to blacks are contemptible and evil. But the principle of property rights is important, and the same principle that protects the bigoted jerk's right to refuse to rent to black people protects your right to refuse to rent to someone you have reason to believe will not pay his or her rent." You do not say, as Reagan did, that if a person doesn't want to rent to blacks, that's his right and leave it at that.


Dilan,

While there were large numbers of people given to behaving contemptibly and wickedly in 1963 - with regard to race matters and however many other aspects of human relations - is not reasonable to assert or assume

1. That it was the modal disposition among white Southerners of that era to wish to injure the blacks who lived in their midst;

2. That human beings who are behaving conventionally are to be regarded on a par with people whose behavior is self-consciously transgressive;

3. That the shabby acts people engage in define their essence as a person;

4. Or that a man who had had fifty-odd years of confronting his own messy human reality and that of those close to him should be striking sanctimonious poses;

5. Or that someone giving a political speech on his own behalf or that of a competitive candidate for office would be well advised to refer to broad swaths of the populations as 'contemptible', 'evil', or 'jerks';

6. Or that the quantum of moral slobbery in this world has been verifiably reduced (as opposed to having merely changed its venue) in response to the splendor of liberal social policy.

You cite Southern attachment to God and Gay issues. But those issues arise out of the same bigotry as the race issues do.


Neither white Southerners or any other communal segment of the population have any more obligation to adopt your conception of manners and morals than you do to adopt theirs, absent a discussion of what the good and right are with regard to sexual expression or with regard to fraternity. The normative questions are not resolved or clarified by impugning the character of the opposition. (These questions are seldom addressed, either, as few people are adepts at much other than the statement of moral sentiments).

What exactly does "not working" mean in this context?

Presumably it means, e.g., not helping people extricate themselves from the cycle of poverty, crime, unemployment, illiteracy, family breakdown, etc., etc. in the ways that government aid to the poor is meant to do.

The money paid to defense contractors is (or at least pretends to be) payment for services rendered: whether the level of payment is too high, the contractors unfairly chosen, or the work subpar are separate issues.

You do not say, as Reagan did, that if a person doesn't want to rent to blacks, that's his right and leave it at that.

Dilan Esper: Are you claiming, then, that Reagan did indeed "leave it at that.?" If that's your claim, you ought to back it up with a cite. I'd frankly be surprised to learn that Reagan never cited libertarian and personal freedom arguments -- à la Goldwater -- to buttress his opposition to civil rights legislation.

It is people like yourself, presumably embarassed by being part of a party which has benefitted from support from racist whites, who wishes to downplay the importance of that obvious fact. I haven't read Krugman's work so I am unsure if he overplays it.

It should be pointed out here that to have uncharitable views of communal groups other than one's own is perfectly banal and a matter of degree in most people's minds and hearts.

That aside, an animus toward blacks which might in the right circumstances be consequential was probably the mode among caucasians in this country up until about 1955. The political party in which they were most common at that time and for two or three decades after was not the Republicans.

I think Republicans promoted a myth that somehow the government was extending large amounts of assistance to people, including many minorities, that they did not deserve. This is a ridiculous myth that is wrong on so many different levels...which is a big part of the reason why the debate over whether the programs "worked" or didn't work is really an entirely different issue.

Sir,
A 'myth' is a particular type of fiction. Questions about who is or is not deserving are disputes over peoples social obligations, which are not arguments over fact.

Jasper and Art Deco:

I can't prove a negative, but I can tell you that it is well established that Reagan said during the fair housing fights in California in the 1960's that if a white man doesn't want to rent to a black man, he shouldn't have to.

And Art, it isn't that you have to put the condemnation of segregationists in the terms I did. But you do have to condemn segregationists. The fact is there is a reason libertarian arguments don't get a pass here-- those arguments WERE used by racists to justify anti-black racism. And that is how they were widely understood in the 1960's.

So, libertarians who are NOT racist have an obligation to condemn racism, because their arguments can be used to advance racism. Those that don't are, effectively, racists themselves, Reagan among them.

As for the issue about anti-gay issues, Art Deco, we are not talking about "manners and morals". We are talking about throwing gay people into jail for as much as 20 years under sodomy laws. That is hatred, pure and simple.

Indeed, one reason why the right has the reputation as a bunch of homophobes is because it didn't clean out its own closet and repeal those sodomy laws (indeed, it supported them), and that forced the Supreme Court to step in-- WHICH THE RIGHT CONDEMNED!

So when you combine anti-black, anti-Gay, and anti-non-Protestant sentiment, you have a pretty big platform of hatred, prejudice, and evil that the Republicans took advantage of.

Again, though, I want to make clear that Ross is right that there were other issues as well and it wasn't ALL about hatred as Krugman apparently assumes.

Art Deco,

The question I was discussing was a mixed one of fact and opinion...the notion that large numbers of undeserving people are receiving a benefit is based on a)perceptions of exactly who is receiving those benefits, how much they are, what they are doing with them, etc. etc. which are all questions of fact around which myths often flourish and b)the subesequent question defining a particular person once the true facts are known about his or her situation as "deserving" or "undeserving" which as you pointed out is a moral question.

I actually think its very similar to the example of defense contractors or corporate welfare in general. I have certain perceptions of what goes on in those areas which may indeed be myths or which may turn out to be wrong in a variety of ways, but I agree that once the facts are known there can still be disagreement about moral or values questions.

They are different but often related questions.

Art Deco,

The question I was discussing was a mixed one of fact and opinion...the notion that large numbers of undeserving people are receiving a benefit is based on a)perceptions of exactly who is receiving those benefits, how much they are, what they are doing with them, etc. etc. which are all questions of fact around which myths often flourish and b)the subesequent question defining a particular person once the true facts are known about his or her situation as "deserving" or "undeserving" which as you pointed out is a moral question.

I actually think its very similar to the example of defense contractors or corporate welfare in general. I have certain perceptions of what goes on in those areas which may indeed be myths or which may turn out to be wrong in a variety of ways, but I agree that once the facts are known there can still be disagreement about moral or values questions.

They are different but often related questions.

John,

"Presumably it means, e.g., not helping people extricate themselves from the cycle of poverty, crime, unemployment, illiteracy, family breakdown, etc., etc. in the ways that government aid to the poor is meant to do"

This is a vague statement and does not reflect the only possible or all the possible goals and purposes of "government aid to the poor" itself a vague idea in desperate need of definition. Are we talking about AFDC/TANF, are we talking about medicaid? medicare? food stamps? social security aid to the disabled? housing support? tax credits?

When you say 'help people extricate themselves from the cycle' you assume that such aid should be temporary...why are we assuming that? Do we assume social security or medicare benefits to be 'temporary' to help seniors extricate themselves from poverty or are they meant to be long term assistance to people? I am not saying I disagree with your statement of the purpose, but it certainly cannot be accepted without argument.

Secondly, my example of the defense contractor was meant to show that a stated justification for a particular government expenditure is not always or even usually the only thing hoped to be accomplished by that expenditure. This is the whole idea of pork, isn't it? And the fact is much more pork in this country goes to benefit rich people than poor people? And my only point was, if someone asks if a pork program "works," that question can be answered in a variety of different ways.

So I may think a particular welfare program did not "end the cycle of poverty" or some such statement but still think that the poor family with hungry children that got an extra couple of hundred dollars every month was not a bad thing or even a good thing.

What is curious about these discussion is the latent assumption on the part of certain participants that something unexpected, anomalous, and even egregious occured in this country after 1966, as if the bulk of the electorate could (absent the machinations of Clifton White or Kevin Phillips) be expected to pull the "D" lever forever and ever. There has been no precedent since the erection of the Federal Government of a political ecosystem lasting more than about thirty-odd years. Consider:

1800-24: Jeffersonian dominance

1832-60: Democratic advantage

1860-76: Republican dominance

1876-96: parity

1896-1930: Republican advantage

1930-68: Democratic advantage

1968- : parity

More particularly, the Democratic Party's advantage after 1930 was had with an electorate which had experienced an economic catastrophe and within which perhaps a third had lived in a household which had experienced a consequent elongated period of unemployment and deprivation. The change in the composition of the electorate as time went on was bound to erode this advantage, all else being equal. That aside, the sort of club loyalties, regional loyaltes, and patron-client formations which defined the ideologically-variegated parties of the 1920s were not sustained and may not have been sustainable. That there was a change in the balance of power between the parties in the post-war period and a change in the terms of opposition between them is unremarkable.

As for the issue about anti-gay issues, Art Deco, we are not talking about "manners and morals". We are talking about throwing gay people into jail for as much as 20 years under sodomy laws. That is hatred, pure and simple.

I cannot say what the law was in South Carolina (where I understand severe prison sentances for sex offenses are common). I can say what it was in New York: consensual sodomy was defined as a class B misdemeanor (along with such crimes as third-degree criminal trespass and patronizing a prostitute). Sentancing rules have in New York allowed judges to chose from quite a menu of penalties short of imprisonment for crimes of this class: unconditional discharge, conditional discharge, probation, fines, & c. The severest sentance that can be imposed is ninety days in the county jail.


Indeed, one reason why the right has the reputation as a bunch of homophobes is because it didn't clean out its own closet and repeal those sodomy laws (indeed, it supported them), and that forced the Supreme Court to step in-- WHICH THE RIGHT CONDEMNED!

Of course people condemned that particular Supreme Court ruling. The tenured judiciary has no warrant to make those sorts of policy determinations, which are a matter of discretion for elected legislatures.

That aside, these sorts of laws are inherently difficult to enforce. You would be hard put to find in the last thirty years much agitation for laws proscribing consensual sodomy. There has been considerable agitation against legislation extending 'civil rights' protections to homosexuals, but, again, such legislation is inherently coercive, and gives short shrift to cultural pluralism.


So when you combine anti-black, anti-Gay, and anti-non-Protestant sentiment, you have a pretty big platform of hatred, prejudice, and evil that the Republicans took advantage of.

The policy implications have been exactly what?

When you say 'help people extricate themselves from the cycle' you assume that such aid should be temporary...why are we assuming that? Do we assume social security or medicare benefits to be 'temporary' to help seniors extricate themselves from poverty or are they meant to be long term assistance to people?

People receiving Social Security and Medicare have (I may be mistaken on the precise number) a mean of 37 years in the labor force contributing, are old and entering years where disability is normal and they would be in danger of displacement from their jobs from their natural decline in productivity, and are in the state they are in from the inevitable aging process.

AFDC recipients are generally young, able-bodied, can ususually look forward to an additional fifty years of life, and are in the state they are in because of habits with regard to and conceptions about maturation, work, sex, and the nature of the bond between man, woman, and child, that a well-ordered society ought to discourage.

perceptions of exactly who is receiving those benefits, how much they are, what they are doing with them, etc. etc. which are all questions of fact around which myths often flourish and

IIRC, ca. 1986, about one million people in New York state were living in households dependent upon AFDC or 'general relief'. That they were on either of these doles suggests the head of household did not qualify as disabled even under the rather expansive understanding of that term that the Social Security Administration and other entitites have from time-to-time employed. One can certainly have some sympathy with people who have come into their young-adult years incompetant to take care of themselves. Continuing the portfolio of public policies that promoted and sustain this sort of adult life (if that is what it can be called) would seem less than wise.

Art Deco,

And this is what I mean by myths...you literally have no idea of whether what you are saying is true but it is the picture you have in your head...AFDC hasn't existed for over a decade..what data are you basing your statements on? Do you even know a single person who actually receives these benefits? Do you know how much a recipient receives?

I am not going to go any further, it was not my desire to get into a debate about welfare..but I believe my belief that opposition to it was and is based on 'myths' has been demonstrated.

Art Deco quotes and writes: "So when you combine anti-black, anti-Gay, and anti-non-Protestant sentiment, you have a pretty big platform of hatred, prejudice, and evil that the Republicans took advantage of.

The policy implications have been exactly what?"

In Art Deco's diseased medieval mind it's perfectly okay to whip people into a frenzy of bigotry as long as there are no "policy implications," I guess. That there are in fact numerous policy considerations wouldn't occur to him or matter if they were pointed out to him, because he approves of them.

In Virginia the GOP pushed and obtained a ban against gay partners forming basic contractual relationships to protect them against the predations of bigoted family members. A-OK with Art Deco. The Bushpigs have all but shut down the EEOC because Bushpigs don't believe racism in the workplace is a problem - they consider it to be a divinely-granted right. Insane SuperChristian lunatics run amok in the military - including the Air Force Academy - and the Art Decos don't see a problem, because they themselves think Jeezus is coming back any day now to pummel the wicked.

The atmosphere of general hatred and fear-mongering by the GOP helps idiots when they want to see a connection between Iraq and 9/11 when none exists - whe you're busy making hate the centerpiece of your existence, one "towelhead" is the same as another.

But trying to explain this sort of thing to worshipers of Saint Reagan who still see no racial animus behind gibberish about "welfare queens in Cadillacs" never works. True believers in St. Ronny who still think Dumbya belongs on Mt. Rushmore are the dumbest group of people on the planet.

That aside, these sorts of laws are inherently difficult to enforce. You would be hard put to find in the last thirty years much agitation for laws proscribing consensual sodomy.

Art Deco, actually there were attenpts to get the laws repealed, and they were vigorously opposed by the right. They wanted homosexual sex to remain illegal.

And the statute in Georgia imposed a maximum sentence of 20 years; the statute in Texas imposed a maximum sentence of 3 years, and there were convictions and sentences under both. That's right, gay people went to jail.

Again, I understand the critique against Lawrence v. Texas, but if you don't want the Supreme Court to strike down stupid laws, you should repeal them yourselves. Leaving them on the books to terrorize gay people pretty much justifies the Supreme Court reaching out and striking them down under the rational basis test (which is what they did). And it was precisely that Republicans are afraid to tell people who hate gays and lesbians to stuff it that is the reason those statutes stayed on the books for the Supreme Court to strike down.

Sodomy laws are sort of a weird tangent here -- sure, conservatives threw a fit about Lawrence, because it was ludicrous as constitutional law (and a rapid about-face on a recent precedent to boot). But, and I'd be interested in hearing if I'm wrong here -- did anyone conservative, in recent history (and let's make "recent" a long time ago, like 1980), of any stature, actually spend any political capital pursuing the enactment or enforcement of sodomy laws? Was this even on the conservative radar? The laws that were struck down, I thought (but I could be wrong) were generally remnants of long-ago, still on the books but almost never enforced, unless law enforcement in pursuit of something else (domestic violence complaints, etc.) stumbled upon sodomy-in-situ.

Unfortunate for the sodomites in question (and I'm sure that even where the law was evenhanded it was unfairly applied more often to gays, while very few straight couples thus barged in on were taken in), but not really a major or even minor goal of modern conservatism.

But, also, not unconstitutional.

And this is what I mean by myths...you literally have no idea of whether what you are saying is true but it is the picture you have in your head...AFDC hasn't existed for over a decade..what data are you basing your statements on? Do you even know a single person who actually receives these benefits? Do you know how much a recipient receives?


I gather from reading your comments that you fancy you understand what thoughts are passing through my head at least as well as I do.

I am aware that AFDC was discontinued in 1996. You were making reference to discussions of social policy that have been ongoing for nearly five decades and posing a question that is not novel but a variant of one that one could see in print from time to time during the long run of years when the effects of these programs were being discussed in the periodical press and books for the general reader (e.g. Ken Auletta's The Underclass, William Ryan's Blaming the Victim, and Edward Banfield's The Unheavenly City). Current experimentation with alternatives to open-ended doles was undertaken with reference to those discussions.

It has been some years since I had to study the question, but I believe that figures on benefit levels and numbers of recipients may be found in the New York State Statistical Yearbooks for that period of years. IIRC, R.M. "Mickey" Kaus, who used to specialize to some extent in journalism about social policy, once quoted the figure of one million in New York on the dole. I do not remember what the specified benefit levels were at that time (which would not have included the value of Medicaid, housing subsidies, Food Stamps, &c.).

In Art Deco's diseased medieval mind it's perfectly okay to whip people into a frenzy of bigotry as long as there are no "policy implications," I guess.

In Virginia the GOP pushed and obtained a ban against gay partners forming basic contractual relationships to protect them against the predations of bigoted family members. A-OK with Art Deco. The Bushpigs have all but shut down the EEOC because Bushpigs don't believe racism in the workplace is a problem - they consider it to be a divinely-granted right. Insane SuperChristian lunatics run amok in the military - including the Air Force Academy - and the Art Decos don't see a problem, because they themselves think Jeezus is coming back any day now to pummel the wicked.

The atmosphere of general hatred and fear-mongering by the GOP helps idiots when they want to see a connection between Iraq and 9/11 when none exists - whe you're busy making hate the centerpiece of your existence, one "towelhead" is the same as another.


But trying to explain this sort of thing to worshipers of Saint Reagan who still see no racial animus behind gibberish about "welfare queens in Cadillacs" never works. True believers in St. Ronny who still think Dumbya belongs on Mt. Rushmore are the dumbest group of people on the planet.

I can feel the unfrenzied love.

Art Deco, actually there were attenpts to get the laws repealed, and they were vigorously opposed by the right. They wanted homosexual sex to remain illegal.

I am sure there were factions in state legislatures that did oppose repeal of these laws. There are also factions who oppose the repeal of obscure tax abatements. Neither is an issue concerning which much popular mobilization has taken place.


And the statute in Georgia imposed a maximum sentence of 20 years; the statute in Texas imposed a maximum sentence of 3 years, and there were convictions and sentences under both. That's right, gay people went to jail.

You did not specify the actual length of the sentences.

It would not surprise me that there were occasional convictions under the law. In the Bowers case, police were allowed into an apartment by a resident to serve papers on another occupant and found him in his bedroom with his pants down. IIRC correctly, the last prosecution for consensual sodomy in New York concerned two chaps going at it in a car parked in the lot of a retail establishment. "Gay people go to jail" when they break the law and get caught. Husbands long banished to the davenport in the den also have been known to do jail time when they get caught with hookers.


Again, I understand the critique against Lawrence v. Texas, but if you don't want the Supreme Court to strike down stupid laws, you should repeal them yourselves.

Which relict community standards are and are not stupid is likely to be a matter of dispute. Like it or lump it we have elected legislatures to make these determinations.


Leaving them on the books to terrorize gay people

?

pretty much justifies the Supreme Court reaching out and striking them down under the rational basis test (which is what they did).

You're the lawyer, not me. Now recently, I came across and article in Law and Contemporary Problems by a professor at (as I recall) Duke Law School expounding on how the 'rational basis' test requires the judiciary of North Carolina to annul express statutory language and treat sport fishing and hunting as a violation of laws prescribing criminal penalties for cruelty to animals. Now why might I think the 'rational basis' test might just be a law professor's scam?

We have all gotten rather far afield of the original topic of discussion.

TMoC writes: "Unfortunate for the sodomites in question (and I'm sure that even where the law was evenhanded it was unfairly applied more often to gays, while very few straight couples thus barged in on were taken in), but not really a major or even minor goal of modern conservatism."

Unequal treatment under the law has long been held to be a gross evil by those of us who are interested in improving society. For most of today's conservatives this is no longer the case, and if a few homos end up in jail it's not something that bothers them even a little bit. I would conclude that it makes them happy, since it's entirely consistent with their authoritarian natures. (The libertarian conservative is a dying breed.)

The despicable pig Antonin Scalia - who thinks sodomy statutes should be allowed to stand and has no problem if they're enforced - was once asked if he had ever sodomized his wife. Naturally he refused to answer. A simple no would have sufficed to show that this is really a matter of morality to him. But it isn't. It's a matter of power. To Scalia and his ilk the state can arbitrarily pound the crap out of people for no good reason at all.

And he likes it. He loves it. Justice has no meaning to Scalia - he worships the power and apparatus of the Law.

Ross, stop playing this game.

The story is simple enough:

FDR put together a coalition of blacks, urban machines, liberals, and southern racists.

That machine fell apart in the late 1960s.

Coalitions with southern racists? How distastefully Democratic. I'm sure Krugman will cover that with his next column.

It'll be the sort of history where "sure enough" operates as an explanation. It'd be embarrassing, if the left were capable of such a thing.

Thomas pulls the same old train: "It'll be the sort of history where "sure enough" operates as an explanation. It'd be embarrassing, if the left were capable of such a thing."

Hey, Tommy, what's your favorite torture? And when you were at good ole BJU, where did you and the other Reaganite Young Republicans stand on the interracial dating ban?

I know you ilk wants to pretend time stood still in 1959, but it just isn't so. The Repiglicans became the default party for racists in the 60s and they have remained so ever since.

Update your Rolodex. (I suspect you still have one.)

Moe:

The Bushpigs have all but shut down the EEOC because Bushpigs don't believe racism in the workplace is a problem - they consider it to be a divinely-granted right.

Actually, Moe, perhaps they didn't like the fact that the EEOC imposes de facto quotas.

Well, that's my problem with the EEOC - although I must admit that I have a hard time ascribing any principed motivations to anything that Bush does.

(The libertarian conservative is a dying breed.)

Weren't paying attention to the news on November 5th, were ya, buddy?

The Repiglicans became the default party for racists in the 60s and they have remained so ever since.

Only for white racists. Non-white racists who hate whites and want to see them wiped out naturally gravitate toward the Democrats.

Which relict community standards are and are not stupid is likely to be a matter of dispute. Like it or lump it we have elected legislatures to make these determinations.

If you really believe that, then you shouldn't be surprised when the Supreme Court strikes down the statute as irrational.

What gets me about the sodomy statutes is that the right wing doesn't want to take any responsibility for maintaining hateful, bigoted, evil statutes on the books. It wasn't liberals that resisted repealing these things!

But if conservatives had the balls to take on their bigoted constituents and get rid of these things, this alleged blight on the Constitution, Lawrence, would have never happened. It's your own damned fault.

But, and I'd be interested in hearing if I'm wrong here -- did anyone conservative, in recent history (and let's make "recent" a long time ago, like 1980), of any stature, actually spend any political capital pursuing the enactment or enforcement of sodomy laws?

George W. Bush, in Texas, in the 1990's, Marquis.

Moe, my favorite torture is reading your comments. I'm a masochist.

I remain amused by the source of your anger: the New Deal coalition was built on southern racists, and fell apart with the decline in their number and with their shift to the Republican party. I'd be happy to let you have them back. I just don't get what you think any of it means. I mean, was the New Deal a bad idea because it was built on and did not challenge southern racism? Remind me which set of standards we're using.

The question: What sticks in the New Deal bundle appealed to the "southern racist" block qua racists?

It's pretty clear what sticks appealed to them in the GOP's Southern Strategy, but it seems FDR was able to keep them in the coalition because they were poor and wanted work and traditionally voted Democratic anyways. It may have hampered change, but its unclear that change would have sufficient political support anyway - look what happened to the Democrats when they passed the civil rights act, and that was AFTER the civil rights movement took hold in the 50s. I'm okay with this. FDR has a lot to respond to in history - internment and his failure to make stopping the holocaust a military goal are two examples - but being supported by cretins that he's offered nothing extraordinary to does not seem one of that.

The Repiglicans became the default party for racists in the 60s and they have remained so ever since.
Only for white racists. Non-white racists who hate whites and want to see them wiped out naturally gravitate toward the Democrats.
Posted by Glaivester | November 20, 2007 3:22 AM

They want to steal your precious bodily fluids Glaivester. Better go nuts and incenerate the world just to be sure they don't get you.

Oh wait the GOP is already doing that.. so I guess yer ok there buddy. Hang tight.

George W. Bush, in Texas, in the 1990's, Marquis.

You mean he had the state police crack-down on recreation activity at highway rest stops?

The question: What sticks in the New Deal bundle appealed to the "southern racist" block qua racists? It's pretty clear what sticks appealed to them in the GOP's Southern Strategy,

Just what was it that appealed to 'them'?


look what happened to the Democrats when they passed the civil rights act, and that was AFTER the civil rights movement took hold in the 50s.

Yet again, please note that the proportion of Republicans who supported the salient legislation exceeded the proportion of Democrats who did so.

That aside, just what happened, and why would you attribute whatever did happen to that particular antecedent? Please note, the Democratic Party retained control of the U.S. House of Representatives with out interruption for forty years (1955-1995) and the U.S. Senate for 34 of 40 years during that time period. The notion of some sort of instantaneous reconstruction of voting patterns is erroneous

The more graduated realignment in Southern voting behavior is clear largely in retrospect. I have not looked at any academic literature regarding the evolution of voting patterns during the years running from 1964-1980, but I do know what was being bruited about in the popular press. Rummage through back issues of Time magazine from the years running from 1974-77, and you will find articles remarking on the success of Jimmy Carter and Lawton Chiles and others in retaining the loyalty of white Southern voters for a Democratic Party bearing a non-segregationist platform. You will also find reported serious speculation on the possiblity that the Republican Party might simply disappear as an electoral force. Among those who thought it a possiblity was the House Majority Leader (who called Gerald Ford "the last Republican President"), the Governor of Oregon (who said the Republican Party is "already six feet under"), and the House Minority Leader ("we may go the way of the Whigs").


I'm okay with this. FDR has a lot to respond to in history - internment and his failure to make stopping the holocaust a military goal are two examples

Please see the work of historian William Rubinstein on this last point.

the New Deal coalition was built on southern racists,

In fairness to Mr. Roosevelt, the Democratic Party had a lock on the white Southern electorate from 1865 onward. The Republicans were competitive only in the peripheral zones along the Chesapeake Bay and Ohio Valley and in the Appalachian districts. What you saw in 1928-1936 was a corralling of people of all classes who had been shellacked economically in 1929-33 (by some accounts young voters in particular) and the consolidation of an enhanced position among sectors that stood to gain from social democratic and mercanilist measures (and a change in the political culture): industrial and service workers outside the South and some portion of the farm population as well. The Democratic Party (as of 1928) had about all the Southern votes there were to be got.

and fell apart with the decline in their number and with their shift to the Republican party.

There has been an incremental evolution in the social sectors who find the Democratic Party their preferred electoral vehicle, not some discrete and dramatic rearrangement of voting blocs. Think of all the other things that were going on in those years:

1. The continuing entry into the electorates of cohorts who did not witness what went on in 1929-33.

2. The increasing prevalence of real property ownership among wage earners.

3. The decline of industrial unionism.

4. The decline of urban machines.

Unequal treatment under the law has long been held to be a gross evil by those of us who are interested in improving society.

The difficulty with this notion is that it presumes what is in dispute: that certain differences in status or behavior are of no account.

The despicable pig Antonin Scalia - who thinks sodomy statutes should be allowed to stand and has no problem if they're enforced -

Mr. Justice Scalia's job is to ascertain if laws prohibiting consensual sodomy are in conflict with provisions of the Federal Constitution. That question is not a normative one. If they are not in conflict, he has no business manufacturing a binding precedent that would render unenforceable the duly enacted laws of Texas or any other state.

If you really believe that, then you shouldn't be surprised when the Supreme Court strikes down the statute as irrational.

I have not read the statute in question or the appended judical opinions, but color me skeptical that the provision of the Texas penal code in question was premised on a physical impossibility or demonstrably incorporated some line of reasoning which violated norms of Aristotelian logic. To call it 'irrational' (rather than, perhaps, distasteful).

Any human society more complex than a set of agricultural villages is likely to have disputes over what ought and ought not to be permissible behavior. Said society relies on constituted public authorities to enforce norms and adjudicate disputes. We have these disputes because fallen human beings cannot perceive moral truth with absolute clarity. Philosophical discourse has not proved powerful enough to demonstrate to all and sundry what is good and what is right, and different societies operate congruent with different principles to muddle through. Here and now elected deliberative bodies are vested with those decisions, not committees of tenured lawyers meeting in secret. (Which has not prevented said lawyers from usurpatious behavior).

Now, it is probable that lawyers are more adept at sifting and sorting ideas and spotting fallacious reasoning. That is of scant account if what is at dispute is reducible to a dispute over some ulitmate principles of action with regard to which neither side of the dispute can defend very effectively.

And then we encounter fallacies of socialization. Here we have members of the professional managerial class all receiving their terminal in similar sorts of institutions accountable only to their peers and (perhaps) socializing primarily with their own. That would seem to promote very effectively the habit of mind that what is taken for granted among one's referent group is what is real. That is Robert Bork's diagnosis of John Paul Stevens: that he hardly interacts with anyone outside of the elites of the Bos-Wash corridor and that he can scarcely conceive that the tastes and prejudices of his social circle are not universally valid or take seriously anyone who might dispute them.


this alleged blight on the Constitution, Lawrence, would have never happened. It's your own damned fault.

Now why does that remind me of the line of reasoning putatively favored by recidivist wife-beaters?

You mean he had the state police crack-down on recreation activity at highway rest stops?

No, I mean George W. Bush specifically supported the Texas sodomy statute.

Mr. Justice Scalia's job is to ascertain if laws prohibiting consensual sodomy are in conflict with provisions of the Federal Constitution. That question is not a normative one. If they are not in conflict, he has no business manufacturing a binding precedent that would render unenforceable the duly enacted laws of Texas or any other state.

Bear in mind that Clarence Thomas dissented and said that the Texas sodomy law was stupid but not unconstitutional. Scalia, in contrast, said it was a great idea. He LIKES throwing gays in jail; that-- and not his constitutional interpretation-- is what makes him a bigoted homophobe.

I have not read the statute in question or the appended judical opinions, but color me skeptical that the provision of the Texas penal code in question was premised on a physical impossibility or demonstrably incorporated some line of reasoning which violated norms of Aristotelian logic. To call it 'irrational' (rather than, perhaps, distasteful).

Art, "irrational" in constitutional jurisprudence means that every statute has to be rationally related to some legitimate state interest. Even Bork and Scalia accept this basic test of due process.

A statute throwing gays and lesbians in jail for having sex is not rationally related to any LEGITIMATE state interst, but only to the illegitimate interest of trying to discourage people from being gay. And it wasn't like Lawrence came out of the blue-- people were criticizing these statutes for 25 years, and they only survived by one vote in a Supreme Court case in 1986. The right had plenty of time to get rid of them but decided they would rather have the votes of the type of contemptible people who want to throw gays and lesbians in jail.

Now why does that remind me of the line of reasoning putatively favored by recidivist wife-beaters?

The difference is, it is profoundly wrong to beat your wife. It is profoundly right to seek to repeal statutes that throw gays in jail.

Look, you can blabber on about morals and behavior and regulation all you want, but these statutes were about THROWING GAY PEOPLE IN JAIL. They were horrible, evil statutes, designed to satisfy the desires of bigots who hate gay people. And your party decided it wasn't worth upsetting its most bigoted supporters to go to the mat to protect gays and lesbians from going to jail.

And you wonder why liberals think your party is full of bigots?

The difference is, it is profoundly wrong to beat your wife. It is profoundly right to seek to repeal statutes that throw gays in jail.

No, that is not the difference.

It is your considered opinion that the Texas legislature is responsible for abuses of power for not having anticipated the policy preferences of the Federal judiciary. She ain't to blame for his violent moods and the Texas legislature is not meant to be a passive instrument of Mr. Justice Kennedy's will.


Art, "irrational" in constitutional jurisprudence means that every statute has to be rationally related to some legitimate state interest.

If what is a legitimate state interest is not defined in the positive law which binds the judge, we have to repair to the realm of political theory to attempt to understand what is and is not a legitimate state interest. The question of what statute vested the tenured judiciary with the power to make such determinations is a question that remains here not broached, the political-theoretical argument that would understand political legitimacy to be served by the erection of a mandarinate remains unbroached, and the sociological argument that tenured jurists make more trustworthy moral or prudential judgments than elected officials remains unbroached.


A statute throwing gays and lesbians in jail for having sex is not rationally related to any LEGITIMATE state interst, but only to the illegitimate interest of trying to discourage people from being gay.

The legislative history of the statute in question I know nothing about, but I have a suspicion that it is sufficiently antique that to attribute to it a purpose of attempting to discourage people from "being gay" is anachronistic.

My grandmother grew up in a social world where divers impulses were expected to be contained by acquired self-discipline operating according to regnant understandings of manners. That applied to the whole realm of human relations, not merely to the erotic component. Sexual desire is not regarded as its own justification in such a world and sexual expression is understood in such a world as part of the esoteric aspect of life. Chastity is the default. An ancillary epiphenomenon of that is a statute that proscribes acts understood to be self-degrading; and is not understood as oppressive because because decent people have their portfolio of inhibitions and disgust reactions and would not wish to do these things and perhaps could not imagine them.

One can imagine in such a world that the dynamics and texture of human relations differ considerably from that in the world you and I grew up with.

You have said that the Texas sodomy statute was outrageous on its face. Now, I have to ask myself the question whether it would also be your judgment that for my grandmother's world to enact beacons and butresses of the mores they lived by was also outrageous; thence to the question of whether to shun individuals (without the intervention of the local sheriff) who transgressed those mores was also outrageous; thence to the question of whether the distinctive mores of that society were of no account and the system of social relations they animated stupid.

I do not think the political question (what is the proper purview of the state) or the social question (how ought we to live) is properly answered by making assertions about what is 'rational' or 'legitimate'. Maybe if we try to puzzle it all out we will come to a point where we discover what we say is derived from a few binaries the answers to which are just as arbitrary, but we ain't there yet, and I ain't ridin' in Justice Kennedy's wagon (presuming it's going anywhere).

And you wonder why liberals think your party is full of bigots?

I am registered to vote, but am not enrolled in any of the political parties here in New York.

As to why 'liberals' think this or that, I can only speculate what goes on in other people's heads. Conceptions of justice have to stand or fall on their own merits; that you may adhere to one more-or-less sincerely does not preclude the possibility of political discourse degenerating into an exercise in self-congratulation (of which impugning other people's motives is a component).

There's bigots and there's bigots, as I've been trying to tell you.

You have said that the Texas sodomy statute was outrageous on its face. Now, I have to ask myself the question whether it would also be your judgment that for my grandmother's world to enact beacons and butresses of the mores they lived by was also outrageous

Art Deco, you seem to think that the way people claimed to live in the past and the way they actually lived coincided. This is a common misconception among conservatives (e.g., lionizing the '50's, which were actually filled with teenage sex (e.g., at the drive-in) and pregnancy (e.g., shotgun marriages)).

Just because people claimed to uphold a "moral standard" when it came to sex doesn't mean they actually lived chaste lives. (See, e.g., "Peyton Place".) And certainly there was plenty of gay sex before Stonewall; there were drag clubs and gay parks and bathhouses in any major city.

There was no time in American history when a more than insignificant number of people had the type of sex lives that religious conservatives believe to the be the norm and the ideal.

Art Deco quotes and writes: "The despicable pig Antonin Scalia - who thinks sodomy statutes should be allowed to stand and has no problem if they're enforced -

Mr. Justice Scalia's job is to ascertain if laws prohibiting consensual sodomy are in conflict with provisions of the Federal Constitution. That question is not a normative one. If they are not in conflict, he has no business manufacturing a binding precedent that would render unenforceable the duly enacted laws of Texas or any other state. "

As a matter of law, chuckles, you're wrong, since Scalia was on the losing end of the decision. Sucks to be you, huh?

Conservatives are strict constructionists when it serves their purposes, for the most part. When it comes to a decision like the one that installed Dumbya in the White House, they become something else entirely.

Bear in mind that Clarence Thomas dissented and said that the Texas sodomy law was stupid but not unconstitutional. Scalia, in contrast, said it was a great idea. He LIKES throwing gays in jail; that-- and not his constitutional interpretation-- is what makes him a bigoted homophobe.

Which is one reason why Thomas is a much better justic than Scalia.

There was no time in American history when a more than insignificant number of people had the type of sex lives that religious conservatives believe to the be the norm and the ideal.

I am fascinated. Where did you come by this factoid?

As a matter of law, chuckles, you're wrong, since Scalia was on the losing end of the decision.

There is a distinction between the law and exercises of judical will.

I am fascinated. Where did you come by this factoid?

I cited some sources, Art Deco. You might also want to read about "flappers" in the 1920's, or watch the films made by my grandfather (Dwain Esper) in the 1930's chronicling what he called sin and debauchery.

I am shocked about how many conservative Americans have no idea that sexual promiscuity is a common experience of all human history.

Dilan Esper quotes Artie and writes: "I am fascinated. Where did you come by this factoid?

I cited some sources, Art Deco. You might also want to read about "flappers" in the 1920's, or watch the films made by my grandfather (Dwain Esper) in the 1930's chronicling what he called sin and debauchery."

For that matter he could try reading the bible - a book in which incest and polygamy and raping slaves are all just part of the life of the gawd-fearing.

In fact any biblical literalist must concede that Yahhoo created man with incest in mind, unless there's an unreported secondary creation which provided the children of A & E with suitable spouses.

The statement in question was a statement about modal behavior.

I think you are both confounding the range of human behaviors with the norm of human behavior (which has seen considerable evolution in the period under discussion). The statistics on the probability of divorce and the ratio of bastards to legitimate births compiled since 1919 are indicative of that evolution (as are changes in statutory law, changes in the content of mass entertainment, &c.).

You might also want to read about "flappers" in the 1920's, or watch the films made by my grandfather (Dwain Esper) in the 1930's chronicling what he called sin and debauchery."

Actually, both of my grandmothers saw the inside of speakeasy's during the 1920s, accompanied by their husbands. You can look at photographs of them taken during that era and compare them to photographs of their mothers taken ten or twenty years earlier and detect the changes to the aesthetical aspect of mundane life. The informality was transgressive as measured against the manners of the post-Victorian world in which they had been raised. However, when you got down to the brass tacks, these were two conventional married couples. I have it on Dilan Esper's authority that they were part of an insignificant minority.

However, when you got down to the brass tacks, these were two conventional married couples. I have it on Dilan Esper's authority that they were part of an insignificant minority.

Well, Art, to be very crass, if they had premarital sex, would you know it? If they had anal sex, would you know it? If either couple had a foursome with another couple, would you know it? If they were constantly cheating on each other, would you know that?

You see, a lot of what has changed is that the mainstream media now reports much of the "sinful" activity, whereas in older eras it wasn't reported in the mainstream media. (That's why my grandfather's films, pulp novels, various "exposes" that were printed in "yellow" papers, and porn film loops that were shown in makeshift theaters, are so important to understanding the history of American sexuality.)

A nice example everyone knows about is that presidential infidelities were covered in the Clinton administration but not in earlier administrations, even though if you went outside the mainstream press, you could find out about them.

But there are other examples. The reason everyone thinks Ozzie and Harriet was a typical 1950's family is because television in those days was heavily censored and didn't present the family with the abusive husband who married his wife in a shotgun wedding at too young an age after she got pregnant due to premarital sex. But I assure you, that family was as common as the Ozzie and Harriet version; the only reason conservatives think the '50's were so much more moral is because the media never told them about all the "transgressions".

Another example: the American swinging movement, which now has over 4 million members, traces back to practices on Army Air Corps bases during World War II. After the war, the airmen brought wife-swapping to the suburbs. This has been pretty well documented by academics-- but they didn't learn it reading the mainstream media or watching World War II movies!

As I said, plenty of documentation of American promiscuity in previous eras is out there, but you have to look beyond the anodyne presentation in the mainstream media and Hollywood to find it.

Dilan on Artie's grandmothers: "Well, Art, to be very crass, if they had premarital sex, would you know it? If they had anal sex, would you know it? If either couple had a foursome with another couple, would you know it? If they were constantly cheating on each other, would you know that?"

This is a great idea for the next HBO miniseries. I even know how it should end... with a 13 year old Artie helping a sheep over a fence.

Dilan, there is much that one cannot know about mundane life in previous historical periods. It has to be inferred from what demographic statistics are available, from contemporary correspondence, artifacts of popular culture, &c.

You keep asserting something that is decidedly counter-intuitive: that people's self-presentation and stated mores vary wildly and their actual behavior not at all. Again, an inspection of the statistics on divorce and bastardy should be enough to discredit that idea in this particular realm of human experience.

You are also making a kindred assertion that is a commonplace: that the legal regime with regard to a particular sort of behavior is neither indicative of nor influential upon the commonality of its practice; that it merely affects the venue of its practice. (Which causes the rest of us to wonder why you would bother about what is in the criminal code).

Now consider these remarks of your, conjoined:

Well, Art, to be very crass, if they had premarital sex, would you know it? If they had anal sex, would you know it? If either couple had a foursome with another couple, would you know it? If they were constantly cheating on each other, would you know that?...


The reason everyone thinks Ozzie and Harriet was a typical 1950's family is because television in those days was heavily censored and didn't present the family with the abusive husband who married his wife in a shotgun wedding at too young an age after she got pregnant due to premarital sex. But I assure you, that family was as common as the Ozzie and Harriet version; the only reason conservatives think the '50's were so much more moral is because the media never told them about all the "transgressions".


On the one hand, I can infer nothing about the character of my own grandparents. On the other, you are familiar with the internal dynamics of the marriages of countless strangers and can produce a taxonomy of marraiges and a distribution of types with quantitative precision.

The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet was a situation comedy on radio and television which depicted an amiable man presiding over a household with low levels of internal conflict. It was light entertainment, and that is all. Since I as a young schoolkid managed not to confuse Fred Rogers or "Eddie's Father" with a prototypical American man, I imagine the adult viewership of Ozzie and Harriet did not confuse that fiction with the other families on the block; and while there may be youngsters whose idea of mundane life fifty years ago is a carbon of the Nelson household as seen on Nikelodeon, it is less than winsome of you to assume that broad swaths of the population think like young children or idiots.

As to what was and was not presented in popular culture and mass entertainment, Come Back, Little Sheba and The Dark at the Top of the Stairs were products of that era. Good drama, both. People had a taste for that as well as light entertainment.

There are people who live in amiable and largely non-conflictual households and people who live in households where domestic violence is a staple. I assume there has been social research over the last forty years which elucidates how common such households are. Whether quantitative data is available back to 1955 or 1919, I claim no knowledge. Personally, I tend to think both sorts of households were and are decidedly atypical, because they have been unknown in my extended family.

All of this is rather far afield of intermediate question (the legitimacy of anti-sodomy laws) or the original question (the sources of the changing electoral fortunes of the political parties).

Artie writes: "Since I as a young schoolkid managed not to confuse Fred Rogers or "Eddie's Father" with a prototypical American man, I imagine the adult viewership of Ozzie and Harriet did not confuse that fiction with the other families on the block; and while there may be youngsters whose idea of mundane life fifty years ago is a carbon of the Nelson household as seen on Nikelodeon, it is less than winsome of you to assume that broad swaths of the population think like young children or idiots."

But recent polls have shown that a majority of Dumbya's remaining supporters - commonly known as Republicans - still think that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks.

Therefore we do know that one "broad swath" of the population does indeed think like idiots.

There's also a Creationist Museum in Kentucky which features a saddled triceratops exhibit - under the "theory" that man and dinosaurs coexisted. So please let's not pretend that idiocy is not rampant in this society.

As for who Artie saw as the "prototypical American man" when he was a kid, I'm guessing it was Rock Hudson.

You are also making a kindred assertion that is a commonplace: that the legal regime with regard to a particular sort of behavior is neither indicative of nor influential upon the commonality of its practice; that it merely affects the venue of its practice.

I don't think I ever said that. Indeed, I have no doubt that legal regimes do deter some people from doing some things. (If prostitution were legal, I am sure some greater number of men would hire them, for instance.)

What I was referring to is something else, which is the idea that somehow, in the 1950's, families were more stable, people didn't have premarital or extramarital sex, there wasn't sexual experimentation, nonprocreative sex, casual sex, group sex, homosexuality, etc. That is 100 percent false, and conservatives are sucked in by the fact that the media (under Hays code-style censorship) presented a reality that never existed.

Dilan writes: "That is 100 percent false, and conservatives are sucked in by the fact that the media (under Hays code-style censorship) presented a reality that never existed."

I'm not sure that's quite right. I would say rather that the Hays Code was driven by the intellectual (hah!) and spiritual (double hah!) ancestors of today's conservatives, who were using it to impose a standard that rational people (even then) knew was absurd.

What it points to is that the ability of conservatives to ignore reality is a constant. There should be a formula for this. How about C=(ri)2?

That's Conservatism = (religion x idiocy) squared.

I think that about covers it.