« Fred Thompson, Supply-Side Crackpot? | Main | Chuck Norris and the Culture War »

The Case For Religious Discrimination

27 Nov 2007 03:54 pm

Where candidates for office are concerned, that is. Jon Chait, responding to my critique of this column, complains that I don't offer much of a response to his original argument, which he summarizes thus:

It's unhealthy to have a politics in which candidates run on the basis of their religion because sectarian differences are irresolvable, and religious-based politics places nonbelievers and members of minority religions (like Romney) at an unfair disadvantage.

I think the original piece made much broader claims than this about the acceptability of mixing religion and politics, but judge for yourself. To the narrower point, I'm not entirely sure what I think. On the one hand, Mike Huckabee's attempt to brand himself as a "Christian leader" instinctively rubs me the wrong way. On the other hand, I have no difficulty with the notion of voters deciding not to vote for a candidate because they're put off by his religion, given how closely faith is usually bound up (and ought to be bound up, if the faith is sincere) with a politician's political worldview. As I said in my previous post, an American might reasonably decline to vote for a candidate because he belongs to a religion that institutionalizes practices alien to republican democracy (like polygamy or racial discrimination), or that opposes the separation of church and state, or that attempts to exert an untoward level of direct control over the everyday lives of its members.

These are somewhat extreme examples, though, so let me go further: All other things being equal, I would probably vote for a candidate who shares my religious beliefs if he were up against a candidate who doesn't, whether Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or agnostic. Now of course all other things aren't equal, and there are plenty of situations where I'd rather be governed by a wise Muslim than a foolish Christian. But religion affects values, values affect politics, and it isn't a coincidence that an awful lot of the people I disagree with politically I also disagree with theologically. And I don't mean this just as it applies to the liberal-conservative divide, since it's true within conservatism as well: I'm more likely to agree with the men (and women) of the Right who come to politics from a Christian perspective than those whose bedrock convictions don't partake of Christian belief, and many of the tendencies I dislike in contemporary conservatism (including, among other things, a disturbing consequentialism where issues of war-making and wartime conduct are concerned) are associated with the less-religious precincts of the Right.

You could counter that I should ignore the religious (or irreligious) underpinnings of political opinions with which I disagree, and just focus on the policy itself, but this seems both impossible to manage and intellectually unserious. After all, if you want to know why some conservatives are more comfortable with torture than others (to take an example with a fair amount of contemporary relevance), it helps to know what the Catholic Church has to say on the issue. If you want to know why George W. Bush defines himself as a "compassionate conservative" and his father didn't, it helps to know something about how evangelical theology has interacted with American politics. And so forth.

Moreover, when you're electing a President, you simply can't know every policy dilemma he'll face and every debate he'll be confronted with, so looking at policy positions alone inevitably leaves a large swathe of the map uncharted - and knowing about a candidate's religious beliefs can help to fill in those blanks. Thus I would be more likely to support, say, Rudy Giuliani if he were a sincere and devout Catholic rather than a seemingly-lapsed one even if all his professed political opinions were exactly the same as they are today, because knowing that he took the claims of Christianity seriously would give me more confidence that he'd make a decision I'd approve of in a situation whose contours I can't hope to foresee.

The question, to return to Chait's point, is whether my willingness to discriminate in favor of a candidate based on our shared religious beliefs can be reconciled with my discomfort with Mike Huckabee telling me to vote for him because he's a Christian. I'm not sure: Intuitively, I would say that it's appropriate for voters to consider religion (and for pundits and bloggers to discuss it, obviously) but not for candidates themselves to make explicitly sectarian appeals, but I wonder if that's a distinction that makes any logical sense.

Share This

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/17758

Comments (99)

Since the worst dunderheads and warmongering scumbags in office today are very, very religious (and publicly so) I cringe every time I hear a politician yapping about his or her sky fairy.

... Aaaand here's ML&J to drop the quality of discussion about 20 IQ points.

Like clockwork, at least for any topic involving religion.

One piece of information that might help Mike Huckabee's "Christian Leader" claim easier to swallow is the fact that, as president of the Arkansas state Baptist Convention, he more or less was a "Christian leader". That is, one could regard the claim as a reference to a specific role he has played in his career. In that context, I don't have a problem with it.

(To be honest, I don't really have much of a problem with it anyway)

As a cynic, I take the view that politicians invoke religion publicly because it works. The permissive anything-goes sexual revolution of the 60s produced a backlash. The mainstream of America remained (at least somewhat) religious. The Republicans realized the benefits of tapping into this and profited. The Dems were late in the game but belatedly are trying to play catch up. Hillary, Obama, and Edwards all have waxed eloquent about their 'faith'.

My sincere hope is that the pendulum has begun to swing the other way. Voters might have just had enough of "Jesus is my bestest pal" politics. Especially given the monumental hypocrisy of the moral values politicians. Personally I'd prefer my elected officials to be men/women of faith... as long as they keep it to themselves.

Some mousse types: "... Aaaand here's ML&J to drop the quality of discussion about 20 IQ points.

Like clockwork, at least for any topic involving religion. "

I don't remember seeing you contribute anything to any discussion. So I'll consider your critique and dismiss it and leave you to play with your pudding.

Re: Since the worst dunderheads and warmongering scumbags in office today are very, very religious (and publicly so) I cringe every time I hear a politician yapping about his or her sky fairy.

Are they really religious or just pretending to be? I suspect the latter is much closer to the truth and Tartuffe would feel right at home in today's GOP. Goerge Bush, I will grant you, appears to have a genuine religious commitment, though his muuddled comments on the subject suggest his faith resembles the Platte River: a mile wide and inch deep. As for Dick Cheney, I would be surprised if he has even as much religion as my cats.

OK, I will concede 2 minor points to Ross on this. If a voter is using religion as a proxy for other issues, that may make sense. E.g., a person who is an opponent of abortion and gay marriage and feels that Huckabee or Romney might be more effective in their opposition because of the mandates of their faith. And if a religion is truly crazy, e.g., the Branch Davidians, a voter can reasonably conclude that an adherent may not be fit for office.

But other than that, Ross is still dead wrong. The fact of the matter is, governance based purely on religion is illegitimate. Compelling people with the force of the state to believe in a religion is wrong; compelling people with the force of the state to adhere to a religious belief (i.e., to do things because an conjectured supernatural being ordered humans to) is also wrong.

And voting based on religion-- outside of the two above examples-- is all about governing based on religion. It's about making it more likely that YOUR religious preferences, rather than someone else's (or a set of secular preferences), get enacted, which will then force everyone else to obey your conjectured deity instead of whatever their own might say.

The funny thing is I am not too worried about this. Very few people really believe in religion anymore (most of the 90 percent of Americans who profess a belief in God are simply making Pascal's wager). As the populace gets more educated, belief goes down. Church attendance is way down.

Religion will never go away, but the power of religious sects to force the rest of us to obey their purported diety's laws is bound to decline, just as it already has among the educated peoples of western Europe.

Enjoy your power while it lasts, conservative Christians.

I just want to know why Romney thinks it makes sense to complain about people criticizing his religious beliefs, when he then goes and says things like this. I'm not sure myself what the right answer to Ross' dilemma is, but one thing I know is that you shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

Compelling people with the force of the state to believe in a religion is wrong; compelling people with the force of the state to adhere to a religious belief (i.e., to do things because an conjectured supernatural being ordered humans to) is also wrong.

This is fantastic, and I want it repeated.

jenny

Rather than just inquire into candidates' religious beliefs, or just their policy views, to get a sense of how they will handle the unexpected, why not ask about their philosophy of politics? What do they see as the good society? What ideals drive their work? How do they understand such basic yet contentious concepts as liberty, diplomacy, fairness, equality, national security, democracy, virtue, privacy, public discourse, opportunity, and so forth? Where do they perceive conflict among various of these concepts and how does their philosophy resolve such conflicts? How well are they able to speak in these broader conceptual terms in the first place?

My vote will certainly be influenced by my understanding of candidates' approach to such questions. One job of political journalists, I would argue, is to put these questions to candidates artfully, pressuring them to minimize vague platitudes and instead to produce coherent answers to questions that are nonetheless broader than policy minutiae.

It would be frightening to have a Christian or Muslim or Hindu (or any other type of faith) leader in power. Values are one thing that should be held precious...but if they are based on an external source, such as the mindless belief in these religions, they are naturally false. Religous conditioning is just that...a form of conditioning that acts as a filter on top of rational and mature independent thought processes which renders a person unable to see clearly. Also, collective conditioning always eventually leads to some level of facism. Always.

an American might reasonably decline to vote for a candidate because he belongs to a religion that ... attempts to exert an untoward level of direct control over the everyday lives of its members.

Like banning abortion?

Jonf replies: "As for Dick Cheney, I would be surprised if he has even as much religion as my cats."

True enough. I think Cheney worships money and power. I'd guess he follows some version of Christianity as an insurance move against the possibility of hell. But then that's not uncommon.

I began reading your post and got to this point...

"...(and ought to be bound up, if the faith is sincere)..."

What?!?!?

That's about the most idiotic thing I've read today.

Faith is something that demands sharing with others.

You would have me hide my faith under a bushel? No! I'm gonna let it shine.

I won't let satan (leftist self-worshippers too!) blow it out.

I'm gonna let it shine!

Liberals...shallow-thinkers and proud of the fact!

Sheesh...squared!

Francis,

Actually, if you looked at the broad picture, the modern Catholic church appears (to me, as a non-Catholic outsider) to be incredibly tolerant of political differences and dissension among its parishioners. You can be a politician of virtually every political stripe, and call yourself a Catholic. They don't even, as far as I know, excommunicate extreme political views anymore. Everyone from Rick Santorum to Hugo Chavez to Alvaro Uribe to George Galloway is a Catholic in (apparent) good standing, and the church doesn't threaten to excommunicate any of them (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, any of the Catholics here). They only have ONE unbreakable rule, ONE thing that as a politician you are not allowed to advocate (and that to their credit, all those four politicians are opposed to). Abortion (and i guess on second thought, euthanaisia too). Funnily enough, that's EXACTLY the issue that the Democratic party in the US is obsessed about. Why is it so hard to obey the ONE rule that the church gives politicians. it's not like there are hundreds of rules, not even the ten that are in the commandments, just ONE! And yet that ONE is too much to ask for people like Dilan. the church has bent over backwards to encourage a diversity of opinions and to encourage the primacy of the individual conscience and only as a last resort to excommunicate anyone. And yet even that absolute minimal standard, "no killing babies" is somehow too difficult for American liberal politicians to obey.

From my perspective, the abortiomania that has gripped the modern Democratic Party appears totally inexplicable.

The United States is founded on the "Enlightened" principle of the separation between Church and State, as stated by the first amendment of the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." However, this does not mean that religion should not have an influence on American domestic or foreign policy. Martin Luther King cited Amos, Jesus, Paul, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas in his speeches that were an integral--perhaps the most integral--part of the civil rights movement. The abolition movement had its earliest foundations in Christian churches. St. Katharine Drexel, one of the earliest American Catholic saints, gave up wealth and comfort to serve African and Native Americans, and was influential in ending segregation in Catholic Churches long before anti-Segregation legislation.

Religion provides a framework in which to identify a hierarchy of values and different religions offer different hierarchies. I do not think it is wrong to question how a candidate's religion influences his or her moral or political perception, nor do I think it is wrong to critique how a candidate's religion is made manifest in his or her's more or less prudential political choices. In this critical analysis of the influence of religion in the lives of our candidates, it is inevitable that we will find some influences to be better than others--that is, more in line with our own values. As a Roman Catholic, I approach the election with values informed by my religious beliefs--a concern for the respect of human dignity, the preferential option for the poor, stewardship of the earth--and I appreciate a candidate who can candidly say how not only his or her family, education, and socio-economic status effect his or her political views, but also how religion has formed and informed the decisions they have made and will make. This is no way violates the separation of Church and state. And those who don't bring religion to the table in the formation and expression of their values are free to disagree and debate with those who do. And if all works well, a candidate will be chosen whose hierarchy of values is suitable to a majority, without oppressing the expression of the values of the minority.

Hector writes: "From my perspective, the abortiomania that has gripped the modern Democratic Party appears totally inexplicable. "

That's because you're unable to accept a secular viewpoint, Hector. There are many, many people who think abortion is wrong who still would not insist on it being turned into a criminal offense because they ALSO see that making their own religiously-dictated morality the law of the land is not fair.

These people are willing to consider limitations on abortion - such as a 3rd trimester ban. They're not comfortable with outlawing 1st trimester bans, though - and since those constitute the vast, vast majority of abortions, your side is still losing.

Re: Very few people really believe in religion anymore (most of the 90 percent of Americans who profess a belief in God are simply making Pascal's wager).

Apart from the rare mystic who claims direct experience of God, hasn't the above always been true? That, or people are religious simply because they were brought up to be and they go along to get along.

Secularism is also a dogmatic faith.

So we are in a pickle.

The problem with using religion as a predictor of policy decisions is that, in practice, I don't think it works. Take Ross' example of torture. I suspect that party affiliation is a far greater predictor of support/opposition to torture than whether or not someone is Catholic. IOW, I don't see any evidence that Catholic Republicans are significantly more likely to oppose torture than non-Catholic Republicans, and I don't see any evidence than non-Catholic Democrats are any less likely to oppose torture than Catholic Democrats. It's the party, not the religion, that's the more reliable predictor.

If you look at voter break down stats, I'm not even sure there's such a thing as a "Catholic" vote any more.

Tell me your income and zip code, and I bet I can predict your politics a lot better than if you give me your religious background.

Is MoeLarryAndJesus an intentional parody of an atheist, or just immature? That "sky fairy" type stuff sounds a lot like the snarky argumentative style of adolescent atheists I knew in the 9th grade. To be fair, *some* adults talk that way, but it tends to be Hollywood types, who, stuck in their own perpetual adolescence, think that stuff like "Jesusland" is clever and hilarious.

Ross:

Intuitively, I would say that it's appropriate for voters to consider religion (and for pundits and bloggers to discuss it, obviously) but not for candidates themselves to make explicitly sectarian appeals, but I wonder if that's a distinction that makes any logical sense.

I have the same intuitive sense as you about this. And usually, I find, when you have that sort of sense, there is actually a rational reason behind it that you just haven't figured out how to articulate yet.

Here, I think, is the rational reason. It seems inappropriate for Huckabee to promote himself as a "Christian leader" for the same reason it's inappropriate for anyone to promote themselves as a "Christian leader" or a "good Christian", not just politicians running for office. If you really are a good Christian leader, then your actions will demonstrate it for you, and you won't need to label yourself.

When people explicitly try to promote themselves by self-labeling as good Christians, it reeks of self-righteousness, self-glorification, and a holier-than-thou attitude, which are off-putting character traits for anyone to possess. And off-putting traits are even more off-putting in politicians pandering for your vote. Also, I think promoting oneself as a Christian is potentially more off-putting to Christians than it is to other people, since Christianity explicitly teaches that you ought to be humble about your faith, since it doesn't come from yourself. So when one Christian sees another acting like a Pharisee, it can raise hackles.

"That's about the most idiotic thing I've read today.
Faith is something that demands sharing with others."

You do know that Jesus commanded that you conduct your faith in private. Something about if you do it very publicly you have "already received your reward" (the admiration of the public). The idea is that your actions will label you as a Christian, not your claims. So, when politicians wear their faith on their sleeve they are acting like the Pharisee's did in that time. Professing their faith to earn the admiration of the public (votes), instead of a sincere attempt to be closer to God.

From my perspective, the abortiomania that has gripped the modern Democratic Party appears totally inexplicable.

From my perspective, the abortionmania that grips the modern REPUBLICAN Party is inexplicable. Alcohol and abortion are both popular. The prohibition of one failed; all evidence suggests that the prohibition of the other will fail as well, with far more gruesome consequences.

Secularism is also a dogmatic faith.

uh, no. Nor is atheism. It's simply a recognition that there is no evidence for the existence of a compassionate god.

And yet that ONE is too much to ask for people like Dilan

Hector, I am not sure where you get this. I think the Catholic Church has every right to decide its own excommunication policy, including with respect to the issue of abortion.

What I would say is that if, of all the things are addressed either in Scripture or Christian tradition, this is the one and only dealbreaker for the Church, it goes along way to establishing what liberals like myself have always said about what the Church's position on the abortion issue is really about and why they care so much about it.

Secularism is also a dogmatic faith.

Lots of devoutly religious people apparently tell themselves this, but it doesn't make it true.

The prohibition of one failed; all evidence suggests that the prohibition of the other will fail as well, with far more gruesome consequences.

Oh come on. Francis is just crazy on this point -- abortion was about as prohibited before Roe as it's likely to be in a post-Roe world, in foreseeable political future. It was not a dystopia, or even a bizarre distortion of crime and law in the way that Prohibition ended up being.

Anyway, the prohibition comparison is silly. Comparing prohibition to the war on drugs is reasonable. Abortion really is a different kind of matter.

What I would say is that if, of all the things are addressed either in Scripture or Christian tradition, this is the one and only dealbreaker for the Church

Eh. It's the only dealbreaker currently popular with any politicians. Lots of other positions would probably invite excommunication (and more than the very fuzzy, half-arsed response to pro-abortion Catholic politicians, who, last I checked, still mostly take Communion if they bother) -- but they're positions no one's going to take (pro-genocide, pro-outlawing-the-Church, pro-chattel-slavery). Abortion is the big dealbreaker because:

1) It's about murdering the innocent, with no ambiguous pragmatic "is it a just case?" points as with, say, any particular war

2) It's in contention -- the Church would, under Dilan's reasoning, care just as much about birth control, which contributes to promiscuity more than abortion does, but there's no way it's going away, and the Aquinas-style "no one is killed, and the sense of the people would not make this law plausible" argument seems pretty solid

3) Probably a few bishops find the prospect of previously pro-life politicians who were (it appeared) sincere throwing away their conscience and soul to seek high office disgusting, and want to emphasize the cost being paid by these folks. Kucinich is not a guy I'd want to be president, in any world, but I respected him as wrong but a very good man until he flopped over to being strongly pro-choice after a history and rhetoric more consistent with his own views.

(The last point doesn't just apply to Catholics, of course -- Gore and a number of others have made the same "odyssey" from what I suspect were their sincere beliefs to a conformance with the tide of opinion around them, and to passing the one great litmus test of the modern national Democratic party: being in favor of killing the unborn. You can support or oppose war, or be fairly rightward on economics, but you can't oppose that!)

1) It's about murdering the innocent, with no ambiguous pragmatic "is it a just case?" points as with, say, any particular war

This is only true if you think women's rights aren't worth a crap, Marquis. And that gets us back to the real reason why conservative Catholics hate abortion.

The last point doesn't just apply to Catholics, of course -- Gore and a number of others have made the same "odyssey" from what I suspect were their sincere beliefs to a conformance with the tide of opinion around them, and to passing the one great litmus test of the modern national Democratic party: being in favor of killing the unborn.

FYI, Marquis, just as many people who are pro-choice flip-flopped the other way (e.g., Reagan, Bush 41, Romney). And since THAT decision screws over women, not blastocysts, it actually is immoral.

Marquis,

I agree with most of what you said, but i don't know if you're correct about Kucinich. I suspect that he is, even now, not particularly happy about abortion, and that he's faking his new pro-choice beliefs as much as much as Romney is faking his pro-life ones. I know that more than a few of the NARAL, NOW type liberals are not happy with Kucinich because he was pro-life until only a few years ago, and they suspect that he will be lukewarm at best in defence of abortion.

I actually hope very strongly that the Catholic church will go ahead, act on its threats, and excommunicate pro-choice Catholic Democrats. Even though I'm neither Catholic nor a conservative. I want it to happen because I think that it would force Catholic Democrats to make a choice between their conscience and political expediency. And I think enough of most Democratic politicians to believe that they would choose their faith over their politics. It would be bad for the Democrats in the short run, but good for them in the long run, because it would set them free of the albatross around their neck.

Dilan and Moe, maybe you can answer this. Why is it that of all the issues out there, the ONE that the Democrats are willing to go to the wall over, is the right to abortion.

Dilan,

I walked past a display case in my university yesterday, with an embryology exhibit inside it. One of the items on display is a four month old baby preserved in formalin. (kind of grotesque, i know.) this is a high ranked public university in a blue state, so it's not some kind of pro-life propaganda. that baby looks as human as you or me. go look at a picture of a three month old baby, and then tell me it isn't a person.

Would you, personally, be willing to use the vacuum tube on that little baby curled up in it's mother's womb. If not, which I hope not, then your heart knows better than your mind.

Hector,

I think you're right about Kucinich. Don't you think that is more damning than a genuine change of opinion, though?

Marquis,

Maybe. It's an interesting question....is it worse to be enthusiastically pro-choice or to knuckle under out of cowardice?

BTW, is it OK for a Catholic to vote for a pro-choice candidate...what's the current teaching of the bishops? I'm not Catholic but I would like to know what they are advising. I might vote Democrat next year, or I might simply not vote (i would rather vote for a purple dog than Republican).

I think that the idea of encouraging women to name their aborted babies, which I recently heard about happening at some Project Rachel retreats, is a really good idea. Actually I think Project Rachel in general is a pretty good idea. Maybe the first step in encouraging us as a society to recognize their humanity.


I actually hope very strongly that the Catholic church will go ahead, act on its threats, and excommunicate pro-choice Catholic Democrats.

How about pro-choice Catholic Republicans, Hector?

Dilan and Moe, maybe you can answer this. Why is it that of all the issues out there, the ONE that the Democrats are willing to go to the wall over, is the right to abortion.

That's not true. Sam Alito and John Roberts got Democratic votes in the Senate, despite that they are quite possible votes to overturn Roe. Scalia got a lot of Democratic votes. The Democratic Senate Minority Leader, the highest or second highest political position held by ANY national Democrat, is a pro-life Mormon from Nevada. The Democratic establishment endorsed Bob Casey because it wanted to win a Pennsylvania statewide race against a pro-choice opponent.

Yes, many pro-choice Democrats feel this is the most important issue. But many others don't-- personally, I would vote for a pro-lifer who would end the Iraq War completely, enact single payer health care, and keep us out of Iran.

To those who do think it is the most important issue, it is because of their profound commitment to women's rights-- and especially their belief that one of the great accomplishments of the last 50 years is that a woman can have a sex life, have a career, and not be forced to have children she doesn't want or isn't ready for. That's more important to them than a theoretical claim that's made about life in a petri dish. And they are right.

I walked past a display case in my university yesterday, with an embryology exhibit inside it. One of the items on display is a four month old baby preserved in formalin. (kind of grotesque, i know.) this is a high ranked public university in a blue state, so it's not some kind of pro-life propaganda. that baby looks as human as you or me. go look at a picture of a three month old baby, and then tell me it isn't a person.

Four months is a second trimester abortion, Hector. I am the first to concede (as did Roe) that as gestation proceeds, the interests of the fetus increase.

But at least 95 percent of the abortions that you hate so much occur in the first trimester, before the 12th week, when the fetus is much smaller. Many are now RU486 abortions that occur when the fetus cannot even be recognized. And the embryonic stem cell experiments you hate are done on microscopic blastocysts.

My problem with pro-lifers is precisely that they CAN'T recognize the difference between that fetus you looked at and a blastocyst which has no interests whatsoever.

1.3 million abortions in 2004. A massive movement of women into the workforce since 1972. A massive increase in the social, financial and political power of women since 1972.

yeah, prohibition of abortion will be just like turning the clock back to 1971.

Marquis, please speculate. What do you think will happen if the Sup Ct. overturns Roe and allows states to ban all abortions?

Dilan,

I'm not a Republican, and I don't care what the Republicans do. Let them be the pro-choice party if they want as they were when Governors Reagan and Rockefeller signed the first abortion laws in the country. Frankly, I don't expect anything better of the Republicans. I do expect something better of my party, the Democrats. I expect them to be the party of Sargent Shriver like they used to be.

I like what that one Catholic priest said when talking about why they were going to try excommunicating Democrats but not Giuliani..."We don't need to excommunicate Giuliani because he's already excommunicated himself' or something to that effect.

And no, Dilan, "Roe" doesn't protect a single baby. It is legal in this country to crush the skull of an almost born baby, and dismember it and then throw it in a waste bin. Right up to the day of birth, as long as you can find a doctor who writes you a permission slip. It's your side who will not accept a single restriction on abortion. It's your side who will not even let people pray in front of an abortion clinic in Boston or LA! You are the ones who are refusing any compromise here. Not us.

Dilan wrote:

"This is only true if you think women's rights aren't worth a crap, Marquis. And that gets us back to the real reason why conservative Catholics hate abortion."

Right, because the pro-choice position is automatically the pro-woman's position. That must be why Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and Victoria Woodhull opposed abortion, because they were secretly campaigning against the rights of women while publicly campaigning for the right to vote. Clever women they were!

This also surely explains why, according to a 2003 poll published by the pro-abortion Center for Advancement of Women, 51% of women in America think abortion should either be illegal outright or illegal with exceptions for when the life of the mother is at stake or when the pregnancy results from incest or rape. A 1998 poll by the feminist group Center for Gender Equality found that 53% of American women held the same position. In other words, a majority of women think roughly 95% of the abortions that take place today should be banned.

I guess these women just don't think that they deserve equal rights.

Dilan, an overwhelming amount of evidence has been presented on this board that directly refutes your assertion that all women think the way you think they should. There have been polls, discussions of Project Rachel (a group sponsored by the woman-hating Catholic Church that helps women deal with the after-effects of abortion), discussions of crisis-pregnancy centers and how much they are staffed by women, and more.

Through all of this, you have consistently ignored the evidence and continued to breezily assert something which is patently false. The irony here is that you are the first to dismiss members of the religious right when the topic is evolution because of their inability to confront the evidence. Yet you are just as allergic to evidence when the topic switches to abortion.

"To those who do think it is the most important issue, it is because of their profound commitment to women's rights-- and especially their belief that one of the great accomplishments of the last 50 years is that a woman can have a sex life, have a career, and not be forced to have children she doesn't want or isn't ready for. That's more important to them than a theoretical claim that's made about life in a petri dish. And they are right."

Again, I guess that a majority of women in America are just not committed to women's rights in this country. At least not as committed as Dilan is.

And your comment about the petri dishes is disingenuous. You leap nimbly from women wanting to have careers and active sex lives to...petri dishes? We're talking about abortion here, where the fetus that is being killed is much more developed than any embryo formed in a petri dish.

I have also presented evidence that shows that a majority of women who have abortions in this country are poor minorities. Most of the working women you care so much about get where they are without needing to have an abortion. And I would also really like to see your evidence that the abortion rate today currently includes ones brought about by RU-486.

"But at least 95 percent of the abortions that you hate so much occur in the first trimester, before the 12th week, when the fetus is much smaller."

Ah, so personhood and the corresponding right to life is a function of your size? So the bigger you get, the stronger your claim to personhood and the right to life? Since I'm 6'1, and my son is not yet 3 feet tall, does that mean that my son does not have as strong a claim on the right to life as I do?

Francis wrote:

"Marquis, please speculate. What do you think will happen if the Sup Ct. overturns Roe and allows states to ban all abortions?"

Since states won't vote to ban all abortions, my guess is that TMoC doesn't need to spend much time thinking about this hypothetical. South Dakota just recently voted down a poorly-written bill that would have banned most abortions. Since South Dakota is a fairly socially-conservative state--and again it voted down a law which would have banned most, but not all, abortions--then it's safe to dismiss your alarmist hypothetical question.



BTW, is it OK for a Catholic to vote for a pro-choice candidate...what's the current teaching of the bishops?

Narrowly, sure it is. For example, if Giuliani is running against Clinton, come the November 08, I don't think my bishop will have a problem with me voting either way, rather than for a third party candidate. Whether I'd actually vote for either is a different matter -- even if Giuliani were pro-life he wouldn't be high on my list of possible good presidents, and I can't imagine voting for Clinton under circumstances that are within the realm of the remotely probable.

In general, if some other issues weigh strongly enough, it might even be possible to vote for a pro-choice candidate against a pro-life one -- the bishops haven't been clear about what weighs how -- a pro-life candidate who wanted to, say, invade Canada would probably be ok to vote against, even if her opponent was very pro-choice! Prudential concerns come into play -- voting for a pro-choice governor or state legislator is in many ways less problematic because currently they often have relatively little to do with abortion policy.

Dilan: Reid is at best very weakly pro-life. Check his ratings (and his actual voting record, especially recently). He has some pro-life leanings, but he'd be seen as moderately pro-choice were he in the GOP, I think.

Franics: I really don't understand your understanding of American politics. If abortion is so unpopular that it'd be banned in many states, then it's an outright travesty that it's protected by the Supreme Court, and the minority that supports it would just make a black market, not overthrow the system or bring about a police state. In reality, "blue" states won't touch abortion, at least not until public opinion changes en masses, and even most "quite pink" states won't manage only-life-of-mother-or-rape-or-incest bans. A few very conservative states will manage those. And traveling to nearby states for abortions will be possible. It's true that the financial consequences for abortionists will be pretty dire.

"We don't need to excommunicate Giuliani because he's already excommunicated himself' or something to that effect.

Hector, believe it or not, now I get to lecture you on Catholic doctrine. Formal church excommunication and self-excommunication by conduct are two different concepts, with the former being a much more severe sanction.

It is my understanding that under the views of conservatives within the Church (though NOT, importantly, most of the American membership), pro-choice Catholic politicians of either party have self-excommunicated. That is the basis for the claim that they should be denied communion. The issue of formal excommunication is a separate, more drastic matter.

Fighting for majoritarian politics, we have the Marquis:

If abortion is so unpopular that it'd be banned in many states, then it's an outright travesty that it's protected by the Supreme Court

and in the other corner, we have the 5th and 14th Amendment to the US Constitution:

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

...

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

the meaning of the words liberty, due process and equal protection is, of course, so perfectly clear that no reasonable person could possibly believe that the right of a woman to control her reproductive decisionmaking without state interference is covered by those terms.

or not.

That must be why Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and Victoria Woodhull opposed abortion, because they were secretly campaigning against the rights of women while publicly campaigning for the right to vote. Clever women they were!

Torourke, many abolitionists felt that blacks and whites were unequal and that segregation was justified. Why? Because to be a civil rights advocate in the 19th Century was different than to be one in the 21st Century.

That goes double for abortion, because abortions back then, like all medical procedures, were often unsafe, and women were often trapped in patriarchal relationships where the HUSBAND was ordering the abortion.

Using 19th and early 20th Century feminists who lived in a very different world to justify 21st Century oppression of women is despicable and shameful.

This also surely explains why, according to a 2003 poll published by the pro-abortion Center for Advancement of Women, 51% of women in America think abortion should either be illegal outright or illegal with exceptions for when the life of the mother is at stake or when the pregnancy results from incest or rape.

Lots of people collaborate in their own oppression, you know. The issue is whether those people have any business stopping the other 49 percent (or that portion of the 51 percent which has hypocritically HAD abortions) from having them.

If you go to Africa, you will find that female genital cutting is supported by and conducted by women. That doesn't mean that they are right or that what they are doing is good for women.

Dilan, an overwhelming amount of evidence has been presented on this board that directly refutes your assertion that all women think the way you think they should.

It doesn't matter what they think. I want to make sure that even the most pro-life woman can sneak off to the clinic and have an abortion when she gets pregnant and decides she cannot care for the child. I care about THE ACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF WOMEN, not their opinion on the political issue. And NO woman is worse off because of legal abortion. They don't have to have it, but it is an OPTION that will help a lot of them further their careers and have enjoyable sex lives and not be tied down by oppressive men. That is good enough to me.

We're talking about abortion here, where the fetus that is being killed is much more developed than any embryo formed in a petri dish.

95 percent of all abortions are first trimester abortions. Most of those fetuses are tiny with very few, if any, humanlike features.

I have also presented evidence that shows that a majority of women who have abortions in this country are poor minorities. Most of the working women you care so much about get where they are without needing to have an abortion.

Really? If you actually talk to urban successful women-- the most admirable role models of ANY women in society-- you will find that is not true. Legalized abortion is a HUGE issue for them.

You have a bunch of dumb assumptions about women that come from reading pro-life propaganda and apparently not knowing any women who have succeeded in corporate America.

And by the way, it is not a bad thing when poor women have abortions either. Those abortions keep them in school, keep them independent of abusive husbands and boyfriends, and often save their lives.

Ah, so personhood and the corresponding right to life is a function of your size?

You are, like most extremist pro-lifers, completely oblivious. It isn't just size, it's ATTRIBUTES. A zygote isn't simply SMALLER than a person, it's DIFFERENT from one. It doesn't have a brain, it doesn't have a nervous system, it is not conscious, it doesn't have organs, it doesn't have limbs, it doesn't have a will to live, it doesn't have hopes, dreams, and ambitions.

As the fetus develops, it develops some of those things. But you will note that it isn't just a matter of size.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY-- that fetus is inside an ACTUAL WOMAN who has all those things, and whose life should never be screwed up because of the backwards and sexist desires of religious zealots to enforce biblical gender roles. THOSE interests are among the most important societal interests, and far outweigh the alleged rights of the tiny organism inside the uterus.

Dilan: Reid is at best very weakly pro-life. Check his ratings (and his actual voting record, especially recently). He has some pro-life leanings, but he'd be seen as moderately pro-choice were he in the GOP, I think.

Marquis, you miss the point, which is that if the Democrats were really enforcing the pro-choice orthodoxy in the sense that it was suggested by Hector, Reid would have never become Majority Leader.

Francis, don't throw around the 14th amendment when it does little for your side. The 14th amendment, properly interpreted, is pro-life. Unborn babies should not be unfairly deprived of their lives without due process.

The right to 'liberty' under the 14th amendment was also used to justify the right to employ children and people for below the minimum wage. The Southerners used to talk about their 'rights' to enslave and segregate African Americans. That is exactly analogous to the abortion issue. Nobody has the right to abort their child any more than they have the right to enslave someone or to hire someone for below minimum wage.

And NO woman is worse off because of legal abortion.

Dilan, unless you're an idiot, I don't see how you can believe that. No woman's ever aborted, under family or boyfriend pressure, when she REALLY REALLY wanted the baby, and would have been much happier with it, and lives with guilt, and wouldn't have gone to a back alley clinic if it was illegal? Only in a fantasy world. Pro-choice people who idolize abortion as a choice that only ends for the better don't do their side much credit.

Even if you think abortion should be legal, it seems beyond absurd to think that the legality of abortion hasn't undermined a case made by some woman, somewhere, who did something against her judgment and regrets it.

Have you, perchance, met any actual women? Any actual people?

Really? If you actually talk to urban successful women-- the most admirable role models of ANY women in society-- you will find that is not true. Legalized abortion is a HUGE issue for them.

The "most admirable"? Urban people are simply better? Success always follows decency, or some other quality that makes some people inherently better than others?

I think part of this just comes down to superficial, success-and-power-and-sex hungry jerks being Dilan's ideal people. That's a view of humanity that I find repulsive, so I don't have much in common with him when it comes to how our laws should work, either.

Dilan,

The early 20th century feminists knew better than the pro-abortion feminists that you hang out with, apparently.

So the 'role models' you advocate are apparently the corporate boardroom women that you keep going on about. Well, they're not my idea of good role models. If 'success' means being a well paid marketing executive who succeeds on the basis of boundless ambition, avarice, and 'killer instinct', has a big house in the suburbs, big car, no kids and doesn't want them, goes home with guys she meets at the bar and then takes care of it with an abortion, then I can think of better words to describe someone like that than 'successful'.

The women who hold pro-life views often suffer for them by being forced to have children at times when they are not ready for them. They are willing to undergo that suffering and that sacrifice of their life plans because of their love for unborn children and their unwillingness to hurt them. In their suffering and in their sacrifice lies their glory and their spiritual beauty. It would seem to me that if you really respected women so much but then again, abortion at least in the USA has never been about respecting women. it's been about treating their children as disposable and forcing them to deny their own essential nature and to kill their own children.

If you think that most women who have abortions today are not bullied into it by abusive men, you're sadly mistaken.

The 14th amendment, properly interpreted, is pro-life.

OK, Hector, let's be honest here. Do you know anything about the subject of constitutional interpretation? I do, and you are simply full of crap.

Consider the following:

1. The 14th Amendment, in its privileges and immunities clause, refers to all persons BORN in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction having the right to all privileges and immunities of citizenship. That suggests that the authors DID NOT believe "unborn persons" had rights.

2. There is extensive historical evidence about the purpose of the 14th Amendment. The narrow purpose was to extend civil and political rights to the freed slaves. The broader purpose-- which not everyone agrees was actually intended-- was to establish a principle of civic equality among persons similiarly situated. Neither of those purposes had anything to do with abortion.

3. It is perfectly clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's due process provisions DO NOT apply to discrimination against the very young. Nobody believed it outlawed child labor, which continued well into the 20th Century. Nobody believed it regulated corporal punishment of children or subjected it to due process requirements. So you would have us believe that a provision that had no application to 12 year olds nonetheless conferred rights on the unborn?

Outside of right wing "make up the Constitution and claim it supports whatever we'd like it to" land, no serious person believes that the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits abortion. Not one. Originalists like Bork and Scalia don't buy it. Living Constitution types like Ginsburg don't buy it either. Nor does any respectable legal scholar.

But I guess the BS put out by marginal pro-life organizations-- who wouldn't give a crap about the actual meaning of the Constitution except if it favors their position-- is the last word on this subject, right?

No woman's ever aborted, under family or boyfriend pressure, when she REALLY REALLY wanted the baby, and would have been much happier with it, and lives with guilt, and wouldn't have gone to a back alley clinic if it was illegal?

The fact that a woman might believe she is worse off doesn't mean she is actually worse off. Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

The "most admirable"? Urban people are simply better? Success always follows decency, or some other quality that makes some people inherently better than others?

Women who overcome adversity and discrimination to succeed in the outside world, using their minds and their talents to benefit themselves and others and contribute to prosperity, are the most accomplished and admirable women in the world. That's right, Hector. They are among the people who have actualized their potential, rather than giving it up to do what some man or group of men wants them to.

If some woman or man who HASN'T actualized his or her own potential wants to hold those women back, that is extremely bad for society.

Legalized abortion is necessary for these women to actualize their potential (and have a fulfilling sex life with anyone and any number of people they want to) without being derailed by a pregnancy. And that's more important than uneducated hallucinatory religious superstitions about how a clump of cells is really something other than a clump of cells.

I'm pretty much with Dilan and Scalia and Bork in noting that this 14th Amendment stuff is nonsense. The pro-choice reading is also nonsense, and not exactly the heart of Roe v. Wade, such as that bad case was, either. But the pro-life reading is junk, too. The Constitution is, in fact, simply silent on abortion. Too bad, perhaps, but true.

The early 20th century feminists knew better than the pro-abortion feminists that you hang out with, apparently.

Hector, they were living in an era when ABORTION WAS UNSAFE and MARRIAGES WERE UNEQUAL and DIVORCE WAS NOT AVAILABLE.

In those situations, feminists may come to different conclusions about abortion. But not because they "knew better", but because the world is different.

Let me give you an example of something going on right now. In parts of the world where sex selection abortions are rampant, some feminists oppose abortion. Why? Because all the girls are being aborted. And that's a respectable feminist position (though there are counterarguments). It also HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ANTIFEMINIST PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH INCLUDES MANY PEOPLE (not the whole movement, but many people) WHO ARE MYSOGYNISTIC AND THINK THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE FORCED TO BEAR CHILDREN BECAUSE IT WILL CREATE INCENTIVES TO FORCE THEM INTO MARRIAGES WHERE THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON MEN AND FORCE THEM TO STOP HAVING SO MUCH ALLEGEDLY "SINFUL" NONPROCREATIVE SEX.

You see, you can babble on and on about how in other contexts a feminist can oppose abortion. BUT NOT IN THIS CONTEXT. Opposing abortion IN PRESENT-DAY AMERICA is anti-woman, because IN PRESENT-DAY AMERICA abortion is a tool that allows women to actualize their potential, avoid dependence on men, and have great satisfying nonprocreative orgasms with whomever they want to.

Re: Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

There seems to be a misimpression in these types of debates that any time a woman bears a child she has no option but to rear it herself whether she has the resources and maturity to do so or not. Haven't you heard of "adoption"? Some years ago friends had a 15 year old daughter, a bit of a hell-raiser (and she still is at 25) who came home pregnant. The girl had the child (she wanted that) but gave it up for adoption through Catholic Social Services. The child was raised by a good family and the girl received (perhaps still does) occasional updates on his progress. Seems that everything worked out well for everyone, including the unborn child.

JonF,

That's a nice and heartwarming story. I was under the impression though that birth mothers usually are not allowed to know about the fate of their child, and vice versa...i.e. the adoption is completely 'closed'. which seems like it would be a sad situation. it's nice to hear that it's not always the case....is it changing?

Dilan,

Just because a practice has good effects (and actually, i don't think that enthroning the right of women to be as greedy, corrupt, selfish and promiscuous as men have traditionally been, is that good of an effect at all), doesn't make it right.

We could probably reduce the health care costs of our society by simply killing all the sick people. It would probably be good from a Darwinian fitness point of view, too. Certainly make the species stronger, and all that. Would that make it right?

Re: The fact that a woman might believe she is worse off doesn't mean she is actually worse off. Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

You know, the great thing about false consciousness arguments is that it's a game anyone can play. I choose to believe that just because women who are denied the right to an abortion think they are worse off, doesn't mean they actually are. I choose to believe that those women are actually better off for having been saved from the corruption of the American boardrooms and saved for the joys of motherhood. I choose to believe that if the women of America were all actuated by Rousseau's famous 'general will', then they would choose to be mothers rather than corporate executives. And you know, as long as we are arguing false consciousness, neither of us can prove the other one wrong.

Leaving aside the false consciousness argument, I am really saddened (but not really surprised) by your blindness to the realities that there are things some people value more than money, freedom, and comfort. Can you not understand how a woman might value being able to bear and raise a child, to bring new life into the world, to have a baby to love and hold, more than being wealthy and powerful by the standards of the world. Can you not understand how a woman might love her unborn baby and feel tremendous guilt and depression and hate herself for the rest of her life for giving in to the pressures from her parents/boyfriend/the pro-choice lobby.

The Planned Parenthood would apparently scoff at those women and tell them to go home, have a stiff drink, forget about all their quaint medieval superstitions, and show up to work at the sacred corporate boardroom the next day. Well, I'm glad that there is at least one organization that will welcome those women in, listen to their tears and their guilt and nightmares, and at the end of it all ask them to name their lost baby, so that when they meet their baby in heaven, they can embrace him or her and greet them by name.

I will go further....EVERY woman who has ever had an abortion is worse off for it, spiritually if not materially, even if she doesn't yet know it. Except when the mother's life is at stake, and perhaps a few other exceptions abortion is never the right choice.

The fact that a woman might believe she is worse off doesn't mean she is actually worse off. Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

Oh come on, Dilan. You're being stupid, or you're an anti-human monster of some sort. No baby has ever been a good choice for anyone? Too bloody bad you weren't put down before birth, I guess, since you cost your parents money and ruined at least your mother's life. This is insane -- unless you think that _every choice to have a child is wrong_, you have to admit that someone, somewhere, might have come out worse because of legal abortion. Look, this isn't granting much -- I think that it's great that it's legal to buy books, but someone, somewhere, has probably had a worse life because of that freedom.

Or maybe the straightforward, lunatic reading is right -- you actually think having a child is always a bad choice, and are not just in favor of freedom to abort, but believe all children should be aborted, for the good of the mother.

Also, people in Dilan's world have much happier and orgasms-only sex lives than real people, it appears. Further evidence he's either not met any actual women, or that he is, in fact, a Strong Libertarian, and thus does not live in consensus reality.

No baby has ever been a good choice for anyone?

That's not what I said. What I said is that the conjectured woman who doesn't have her baby because she chose to have an abortion and later regretted it, is not worse off because she didn't have the baby. She's better off, because she has more life choices available to her.

In contrast, a woman who is forced to carry and bear a child she doesn't want (and by the way, even the pregnancy is a big disruption which is why adoption is not the solution) IS worse off without the abortion right.

Also, people in Dilan's world have much happier and orgasms-only sex lives than real people, it appears.

Marquis, the point isn't that everyone's gonna have an orgasm whenever they want to. It's that everyone who WANTS to have a sex life that isn't within the narrow definition of what a ostensibly celibate religious leader in Rome approves of should be able to have it.

You miss the point of my comments, and this probably gets to the labeling issue of why pro-choicers call themselves pro-choice. If some women want to marry at 18, never work outside the home, have 6 babies, etc., that's their choice. But we must make the LEGAL RULES based on those women who do choose to actualize their potential, in the bedroom and in the boardroom. They must have the choice to have an abortion rather than playing by the rules that the rural teenage mother who has no greater ambitions plays by.

It is good for all women to have those choices, even though some will never exercise them, and it is good for society to get the maximum amount of talent into the workplace, including those women who might get held back by a pregnancy.

And the fact that devout religious Catholics can't recognize these things just shows you the folly of believing in things that were written 2,000 years ago by people who had no idea how society would work two millenia later.

She's better off, because she has more life choices available to her.

You know this? Maybe in her case, she would have been better off having the baby. Come on, denying this makes you look like a fool, as far as I can see. There's no reason to stick to this point. Someone could MAKE A MISTAKE and HAVE AN ABORTION that, counterfactually speaking (that is, we compare the outcomes in a hypothetical world where they had the baby), left them worse off. You can't define "better off" only in terms of "more life choices" -- and perhaps the woman became infertile for some reason after that, and so this was her last chance to be a mother, so she has less life choices, now. It's just absurd. It's a logical, philosophical point. But not granting it shows such an absurd and inhumane, dogmatic and malicious view of human life's purposes and such a monstrous antipathy to the idea of motherhood that it makes you look much more like a heartless demon than I imagine you are.

Again, who do choose to actualize their potential is, frankly, Nazi-speak to me. So women who are good mothers "only" rather than contributors to the engines of capitalism, aren't actualizing potential? Or men, for that matter, since if parenthood is un-actualizing work for women it can't be much good for men, either, I guess. You think people who make certain choices are _inferior_. It's in every word you write. You're a bigot, not just anti-Catholic, but anti- anyone who doesn't fetishize success and sex the way you do. A more intellectual version of the vapid malice that makes a COSMO or MAXIM magazine.

More generally, I think that "maximizing life choices" is a nice summary of the nastiness of a certain view of life. Loyalty and love do not maximize choices. Being unrooted, disloyal, cruel, and powerful maximizes pure choice, in a sense. The man with a conscience has a very limited set of choices in life; the man without conscience can choose to act well, but is not forced too, and he can certainly make more money, if he's smart enough to avoid getting caught. Maximizing choice is the life program of a thug, a cheat, or a sociopath. That some "liberals" fetishize it as the Good Life or an actual goal in itself speaks to the roaring vacuums at the heart of many people, and many ideas.

This is, as some noted in the analysis of the Sopranos, the appeal of the life of a mob BOSS -- his choices are maximized. He can even KILL PEOPLE, a choice most of us don't get -- it's ver nice. It's very free. He can make his money and pleasure first principles, only determines by the need to survive long enough to enjoy them (an optimization problem, rather than a real constraint like morality or love).

So women who are good mothers "only" rather than contributors to the engines of capitalism, aren't actualizing potential?

An intelligent woman who could be running a fortune 500 company but instead spends her days doing menial tasks that require no brainpower and which could be hired out is not actualizing her potential, and that choice-- while it is hers to make, if she can afford it-- is bad for society because it takes a person out of the workforce who could be contributing to the greater good.

Legalized abortion facilitates a society where those women who want to work and have enjoyable sex lives can do so.

You can't define "better off" only in terms of "more life choices" -- and perhaps the woman became infertile for some reason after that, and so this was her last chance to be a mother, so she has less life choices, now.

One can always become a mother, Marquis. There are plenty of children to adopt in this world.

You're a bigot, not just anti-Catholic, but anti- anyone who doesn't fetishize success and sex the way you do.

Marquis, again, I stand for the right of all those devout Catholic mothers who just want to marry early and take care of the kids to do so, so long as they can afford it. I don't see how that is bigotry.

I am for giving people the CHOICE to do something different, something that will allow society to take advantage of the talents of closer to 100 percent of its adult population. And yes, I think that is the right choice. But I don't believe in using government power to stop women from making other choices.

Only a warped mind would call that a form of bigotry.

You, on the other hand, want to use government power to FORECLOSE life choices.

More generally, I think that "maximizing life choices" is a nice summary of the nastiness of a certain view of life. Loyalty and love do not maximize choices. Being unrooted, disloyal, cruel, and powerful maximizes pure choice, in a sense. The man with a conscience has a very limited set of choices in life; the man without conscience can choose to act well, but is not forced too, and he can certainly make more money, if he's smart enough to avoid getting caught. Maximizing choice is the life program of a thug, a cheat, or a sociopath. That some "liberals" fetishize it as the Good Life or an actual goal in itself speaks to the roaring vacuums at the heart of many people, and many ideas.

What's missing in your vision, Marquis, is any mention of gender equality. I think equality is the single most important value-- we all must have the same opportunity to actualize our potential, without regard to our gender. It's more important than any of the stuff you mention in that paragraph.

I don't think you even believe in it-- or at the very least, you ignore it whenever it conflicts with anything that your untrue religious beliefs teach you.

I think equality is the single most important value

If equality is more important than love and more important than loyalty (without which there can be little love among humans, for one thing), yes, that is a rather significant divergence between us. Actualizing our potential to contribute to the engines of society -- for what purpose? You have no notion of anything higher than a good lay or loads of money, as far as I can tell. Your "equality" is all in pursuit of toys and orgasms, which doesn't even raise it to a very high level of equality in th eyes of most thinkers on that subject, as far as I can see.

You don't have to be a conservative Catholic to find a world view that thinks equality (in producing economic benefits for society alone, as far as I can tell) is more important than love is selfish, nasty, and inhumane. It's a popular POV among young, amoral, intelligent, emotionally stunted men, though. Oddly enough, for sexual reasons (I suppose) it seems to appear more on the left these days (true socialism is dead so the left isn't much to fear for the intelligent get-ahead guy -- it won't rob you, and it will help you get laid), and the Randian types on the right who are (to my old eyes) quite similar seem less a presence.

My goodness. What a dehumanizing and empty view of human nature Dilan seems to have.

Marquis, I don't particularly see that 'equality' is very important to Dilan's worldview. Quite the opposite, in fact. Look at the last few posts of his. He wants the world to be divided between the stupid rural women who do the hired labor and bear the children, and the smart, urban advertising executives who have fun in the bedroom and make lots of money in the boardroom and don't bother about menial labor like changing diapers, nursing babies, or sweeping their own homes. That isn't equality, it's aristocracy.

your precious boardroom/bedroom women are no better than the impoverished teenage welfare mother, and morally speaking probably a good bit worse. at least the welfare mothers have the decency not to kill their own children in pursuit of more money and more orgasms.

The idea that you can and should just