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The Case For Religious Discrimination

27 Nov 2007 03:54 pm

Where candidates for office are concerned, that is. Jon Chait, responding to my critique of this column, complains that I don't offer much of a response to his original argument, which he summarizes thus:

It's unhealthy to have a politics in which candidates run on the basis of their religion because sectarian differences are irresolvable, and religious-based politics places nonbelievers and members of minority religions (like Romney) at an unfair disadvantage.

I think the original piece made much broader claims than this about the acceptability of mixing religion and politics, but judge for yourself. To the narrower point, I'm not entirely sure what I think. On the one hand, Mike Huckabee's attempt to brand himself as a "Christian leader" instinctively rubs me the wrong way. On the other hand, I have no difficulty with the notion of voters deciding not to vote for a candidate because they're put off by his religion, given how closely faith is usually bound up (and ought to be bound up, if the faith is sincere) with a politician's political worldview. As I said in my previous post, an American might reasonably decline to vote for a candidate because he belongs to a religion that institutionalizes practices alien to republican democracy (like polygamy or racial discrimination), or that opposes the separation of church and state, or that attempts to exert an untoward level of direct control over the everyday lives of its members.

These are somewhat extreme examples, though, so let me go further: All other things being equal, I would probably vote for a candidate who shares my religious beliefs if he were up against a candidate who doesn't, whether Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or agnostic. Now of course all other things aren't equal, and there are plenty of situations where I'd rather be governed by a wise Muslim than a foolish Christian. But religion affects values, values affect politics, and it isn't a coincidence that an awful lot of the people I disagree with politically I also disagree with theologically. And I don't mean this just as it applies to the liberal-conservative divide, since it's true within conservatism as well: I'm more likely to agree with the men (and women) of the Right who come to politics from a Christian perspective than those whose bedrock convictions don't partake of Christian belief, and many of the tendencies I dislike in contemporary conservatism (including, among other things, a disturbing consequentialism where issues of war-making and wartime conduct are concerned) are associated with the less-religious precincts of the Right.

You could counter that I should ignore the religious (or irreligious) underpinnings of political opinions with which I disagree, and just focus on the policy itself, but this seems both impossible to manage and intellectually unserious. After all, if you want to know why some conservatives are more comfortable with torture than others (to take an example with a fair amount of contemporary relevance), it helps to know what the Catholic Church has to say on the issue. If you want to know why George W. Bush defines himself as a "compassionate conservative" and his father didn't, it helps to know something about how evangelical theology has interacted with American politics. And so forth.

Moreover, when you're electing a President, you simply can't know every policy dilemma he'll face and every debate he'll be confronted with, so looking at policy positions alone inevitably leaves a large swathe of the map uncharted - and knowing about a candidate's religious beliefs can help to fill in those blanks. Thus I would be more likely to support, say, Rudy Giuliani if he were a sincere and devout Catholic rather than a seemingly-lapsed one even if all his professed political opinions were exactly the same as they are today, because knowing that he took the claims of Christianity seriously would give me more confidence that he'd make a decision I'd approve of in a situation whose contours I can't hope to foresee.

The question, to return to Chait's point, is whether my willingness to discriminate in favor of a candidate based on our shared religious beliefs can be reconciled with my discomfort with Mike Huckabee telling me to vote for him because he's a Christian. I'm not sure: Intuitively, I would say that it's appropriate for voters to consider religion (and for pundits and bloggers to discuss it, obviously) but not for candidates themselves to make explicitly sectarian appeals, but I wonder if that's a distinction that makes any logical sense.

Comments (99)

Since the worst dunderheads and warmongering scumbags in office today are very, very religious (and publicly so) I cringe every time I hear a politician yapping about his or her sky fairy.

... Aaaand here's ML&J to drop the quality of discussion about 20 IQ points.

Like clockwork, at least for any topic involving religion.

One piece of information that might help Mike Huckabee's "Christian Leader" claim easier to swallow is the fact that, as president of the Arkansas state Baptist Convention, he more or less was a "Christian leader". That is, one could regard the claim as a reference to a specific role he has played in his career. In that context, I don't have a problem with it.

(To be honest, I don't really have much of a problem with it anyway)

As a cynic, I take the view that politicians invoke religion publicly because it works. The permissive anything-goes sexual revolution of the 60s produced a backlash. The mainstream of America remained (at least somewhat) religious. The Republicans realized the benefits of tapping into this and profited. The Dems were late in the game but belatedly are trying to play catch up. Hillary, Obama, and Edwards all have waxed eloquent about their 'faith'.

My sincere hope is that the pendulum has begun to swing the other way. Voters might have just had enough of "Jesus is my bestest pal" politics. Especially given the monumental hypocrisy of the moral values politicians. Personally I'd prefer my elected officials to be men/women of faith... as long as they keep it to themselves.

Some mousse types: "... Aaaand here's ML&J to drop the quality of discussion about 20 IQ points.

Like clockwork, at least for any topic involving religion. "

I don't remember seeing you contribute anything to any discussion. So I'll consider your critique and dismiss it and leave you to play with your pudding.

Re: Since the worst dunderheads and warmongering scumbags in office today are very, very religious (and publicly so) I cringe every time I hear a politician yapping about his or her sky fairy.

Are they really religious or just pretending to be? I suspect the latter is much closer to the truth and Tartuffe would feel right at home in today's GOP. Goerge Bush, I will grant you, appears to have a genuine religious commitment, though his muuddled comments on the subject suggest his faith resembles the Platte River: a mile wide and inch deep. As for Dick Cheney, I would be surprised if he has even as much religion as my cats.

OK, I will concede 2 minor points to Ross on this. If a voter is using religion as a proxy for other issues, that may make sense. E.g., a person who is an opponent of abortion and gay marriage and feels that Huckabee or Romney might be more effective in their opposition because of the mandates of their faith. And if a religion is truly crazy, e.g., the Branch Davidians, a voter can reasonably conclude that an adherent may not be fit for office.

But other than that, Ross is still dead wrong. The fact of the matter is, governance based purely on religion is illegitimate. Compelling people with the force of the state to believe in a religion is wrong; compelling people with the force of the state to adhere to a religious belief (i.e., to do things because an conjectured supernatural being ordered humans to) is also wrong.

And voting based on religion-- outside of the two above examples-- is all about governing based on religion. It's about making it more likely that YOUR religious preferences, rather than someone else's (or a set of secular preferences), get enacted, which will then force everyone else to obey your conjectured deity instead of whatever their own might say.

The funny thing is I am not too worried about this. Very few people really believe in religion anymore (most of the 90 percent of Americans who profess a belief in God are simply making Pascal's wager). As the populace gets more educated, belief goes down. Church attendance is way down.

Religion will never go away, but the power of religious sects to force the rest of us to obey their purported diety's laws is bound to decline, just as it already has among the educated peoples of western Europe.

Enjoy your power while it lasts, conservative Christians.

I just want to know why Romney thinks it makes sense to complain about people criticizing his religious beliefs, when he then goes and says things like this. I'm not sure myself what the right answer to Ross' dilemma is, but one thing I know is that you shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

Compelling people with the force of the state to believe in a religion is wrong; compelling people with the force of the state to adhere to a religious belief (i.e., to do things because an conjectured supernatural being ordered humans to) is also wrong.

This is fantastic, and I want it repeated.

jenny

Rather than just inquire into candidates' religious beliefs, or just their policy views, to get a sense of how they will handle the unexpected, why not ask about their philosophy of politics? What do they see as the good society? What ideals drive their work? How do they understand such basic yet contentious concepts as liberty, diplomacy, fairness, equality, national security, democracy, virtue, privacy, public discourse, opportunity, and so forth? Where do they perceive conflict among various of these concepts and how does their philosophy resolve such conflicts? How well are they able to speak in these broader conceptual terms in the first place?

My vote will certainly be influenced by my understanding of candidates' approach to such questions. One job of political journalists, I would argue, is to put these questions to candidates artfully, pressuring them to minimize vague platitudes and instead to produce coherent answers to questions that are nonetheless broader than policy minutiae.

It would be frightening to have a Christian or Muslim or Hindu (or any other type of faith) leader in power. Values are one thing that should be held precious...but if they are based on an external source, such as the mindless belief in these religions, they are naturally false. Religous conditioning is just that...a form of conditioning that acts as a filter on top of rational and mature independent thought processes which renders a person unable to see clearly. Also, collective conditioning always eventually leads to some level of facism. Always.

an American might reasonably decline to vote for a candidate because he belongs to a religion that ... attempts to exert an untoward level of direct control over the everyday lives of its members.

Like banning abortion?

Jonf replies: "As for Dick Cheney, I would be surprised if he has even as much religion as my cats."

True enough. I think Cheney worships money and power. I'd guess he follows some version of Christianity as an insurance move against the possibility of hell. But then that's not uncommon.

I began reading your post and got to this point...

"...(and ought to be bound up, if the faith is sincere)..."

What?!?!?

That's about the most idiotic thing I've read today.

Faith is something that demands sharing with others.

You would have me hide my faith under a bushel? No! I'm gonna let it shine.

I won't let satan (leftist self-worshippers too!) blow it out.

I'm gonna let it shine!

Liberals...shallow-thinkers and proud of the fact!

Sheesh...squared!

Francis,

Actually, if you looked at the broad picture, the modern Catholic church appears (to me, as a non-Catholic outsider) to be incredibly tolerant of political differences and dissension among its parishioners. You can be a politician of virtually every political stripe, and call yourself a Catholic. They don't even, as far as I know, excommunicate extreme political views anymore. Everyone from Rick Santorum to Hugo Chavez to Alvaro Uribe to George Galloway is a Catholic in (apparent) good standing, and the church doesn't threaten to excommunicate any of them (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, any of the Catholics here). They only have ONE unbreakable rule, ONE thing that as a politician you are not allowed to advocate (and that to their credit, all those four politicians are opposed to). Abortion (and i guess on second thought, euthanaisia too). Funnily enough, that's EXACTLY the issue that the Democratic party in the US is obsessed about. Why is it so hard to obey the ONE rule that the church gives politicians. it's not like there are hundreds of rules, not even the ten that are in the commandments, just ONE! And yet that ONE is too much to ask for people like Dilan. the church has bent over backwards to encourage a diversity of opinions and to encourage the primacy of the individual conscience and only as a last resort to excommunicate anyone. And yet even that absolute minimal standard, "no killing babies" is somehow too difficult for American liberal politicians to obey.

From my perspective, the abortiomania that has gripped the modern Democratic Party appears totally inexplicable.

The United States is founded on the "Enlightened" principle of the separation between Church and State, as stated by the first amendment of the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." However, this does not mean that religion should not have an influence on American domestic or foreign policy. Martin Luther King cited Amos, Jesus, Paul, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas in his speeches that were an integral--perhaps the most integral--part of the civil rights movement. The abolition movement had its earliest foundations in Christian churches. St. Katharine Drexel, one of the earliest American Catholic saints, gave up wealth and comfort to serve African and Native Americans, and was influential in ending segregation in Catholic Churches long before anti-Segregation legislation.

Religion provides a framework in which to identify a hierarchy of values and different religions offer different hierarchies. I do not think it is wrong to question how a candidate's religion influences his or her moral or political perception, nor do I think it is wrong to critique how a candidate's religion is made manifest in his or her's more or less prudential political choices. In this critical analysis of the influence of religion in the lives of our candidates, it is inevitable that we will find some influences to be better than others--that is, more in line with our own values. As a Roman Catholic, I approach the election with values informed by my religious beliefs--a concern for the respect of human dignity, the preferential option for the poor, stewardship of the earth--and I appreciate a candidate who can candidly say how not only his or her family, education, and socio-economic status effect his or her political views, but also how religion has formed and informed the decisions they have made and will make. This is no way violates the separation of Church and state. And those who don't bring religion to the table in the formation and expression of their values are free to disagree and debate with those who do. And if all works well, a candidate will be chosen whose hierarchy of values is suitable to a majority, without oppressing the expression of the values of the minority.

Hector writes: "From my perspective, the abortiomania that has gripped the modern Democratic Party appears totally inexplicable. "

That's because you're unable to accept a secular viewpoint, Hector. There are many, many people who think abortion is wrong who still would not insist on it being turned into a criminal offense because they ALSO see that making their own religiously-dictated morality the law of the land is not fair.

These people are willing to consider limitations on abortion - such as a 3rd trimester ban. They're not comfortable with outlawing 1st trimester bans, though - and since those constitute the vast, vast majority of abortions, your side is still losing.

Re: Very few people really believe in religion anymore (most of the 90 percent of Americans who profess a belief in God are simply making Pascal's wager).

Apart from the rare mystic who claims direct experience of God, hasn't the above always been true? That, or people are religious simply because they were brought up to be and they go along to get along.

Secularism is also a dogmatic faith.

So we are in a pickle.

The problem with using religion as a predictor of policy decisions is that, in practice, I don't think it works. Take Ross' example of torture. I suspect that party affiliation is a far greater predictor of support/opposition to torture than whether or not someone is Catholic. IOW, I don't see any evidence that Catholic Republicans are significantly more likely to oppose torture than non-Catholic Republicans, and I don't see any evidence than non-Catholic Democrats are any less likely to oppose torture than Catholic Democrats. It's the party, not the religion, that's the more reliable predictor.

If you look at voter break down stats, I'm not even sure there's such a thing as a "Catholic" vote any more.

Tell me your income and zip code, and I bet I can predict your politics a lot better than if you give me your religious background.

Is MoeLarryAndJesus an intentional parody of an atheist, or just immature? That "sky fairy" type stuff sounds a lot like the snarky argumentative style of adolescent atheists I knew in the 9th grade. To be fair, *some* adults talk that way, but it tends to be Hollywood types, who, stuck in their own perpetual adolescence, think that stuff like "Jesusland" is clever and hilarious.

Ross:

Intuitively, I would say that it's appropriate for voters to consider religion (and for pundits and bloggers to discuss it, obviously) but not for candidates themselves to make explicitly sectarian appeals, but I wonder if that's a distinction that makes any logical sense.

I have the same intuitive sense as you about this. And usually, I find, when you have that sort of sense, there is actually a rational reason behind it that you just haven't figured out how to articulate yet.

Here, I think, is the rational reason. It seems inappropriate for Huckabee to promote himself as a "Christian leader" for the same reason it's inappropriate for anyone to promote themselves as a "Christian leader" or a "good Christian", not just politicians running for office. If you really are a good Christian leader, then your actions will demonstrate it for you, and you won't need to label yourself.

When people explicitly try to promote themselves by self-labeling as good Christians, it reeks of self-righteousness, self-glorification, and a holier-than-thou attitude, which are off-putting character traits for anyone to possess. And off-putting traits are even more off-putting in politicians pandering for your vote. Also, I think promoting oneself as a Christian is potentially more off-putting to Christians than it is to other people, since Christianity explicitly teaches that you ought to be humble about your faith, since it doesn't come from yourself. So when one Christian sees another acting like a Pharisee, it can raise hackles.

"That's about the most idiotic thing I've read today.
Faith is something that demands sharing with others."

You do know that Jesus commanded that you conduct your faith in private. Something about if you do it very publicly you have "already received your reward" (the admiration of the public). The idea is that your actions will label you as a Christian, not your claims. So, when politicians wear their faith on their sleeve they are acting like the Pharisee's did in that time. Professing their faith to earn the admiration of the public (votes), instead of a sincere attempt to be closer to God.

From my perspective, the abortiomania that has gripped the modern Democratic Party appears totally inexplicable.

From my perspective, the abortionmania that grips the modern REPUBLICAN Party is inexplicable. Alcohol and abortion are both popular. The prohibition of one failed; all evidence suggests that the prohibition of the other will fail as well, with far more gruesome consequences.

Secularism is also a dogmatic faith.

uh, no. Nor is atheism. It's simply a recognition that there is no evidence for the existence of a compassionate god.

And yet that ONE is too much to ask for people like Dilan

Hector, I am not sure where you get this. I think the Catholic Church has every right to decide its own excommunication policy, including with respect to the issue of abortion.

What I would say is that if, of all the things are addressed either in Scripture or Christian tradition, this is the one and only dealbreaker for the Church, it goes along way to establishing what liberals like myself have always said about what the Church's position on the abortion issue is really about and why they care so much about it.

Secularism is also a dogmatic faith.

Lots of devoutly religious people apparently tell themselves this, but it doesn't make it true.

The prohibition of one failed; all evidence suggests that the prohibition of the other will fail as well, with far more gruesome consequences.

Oh come on. Francis is just crazy on this point -- abortion was about as prohibited before Roe as it's likely to be in a post-Roe world, in foreseeable political future. It was not a dystopia, or even a bizarre distortion of crime and law in the way that Prohibition ended up being.

Anyway, the prohibition comparison is silly. Comparing prohibition to the war on drugs is reasonable. Abortion really is a different kind of matter.

What I would say is that if, of all the things are addressed either in Scripture or Christian tradition, this is the one and only dealbreaker for the Church

Eh. It's the only dealbreaker currently popular with any politicians. Lots of other positions would probably invite excommunication (and more than the very fuzzy, half-arsed response to pro-abortion Catholic politicians, who, last I checked, still mostly take Communion if they bother) -- but they're positions no one's going to take (pro-genocide, pro-outlawing-the-Church, pro-chattel-slavery). Abortion is the big dealbreaker because:

1) It's about murdering the innocent, with no ambiguous pragmatic "is it a just case?" points as with, say, any particular war

2) It's in contention -- the Church would, under Dilan's reasoning, care just as much about birth control, which contributes to promiscuity more than abortion does, but there's no way it's going away, and the Aquinas-style "no one is killed, and the sense of the people would not make this law plausible" argument seems pretty solid

3) Probably a few bishops find the prospect of previously pro-life politicians who were (it appeared) sincere throwing away their conscience and soul to seek high office disgusting, and want to emphasize the cost being paid by these folks. Kucinich is not a guy I'd want to be president, in any world, but I respected him as wrong but a very good man until he flopped over to being strongly pro-choice after a history and rhetoric more consistent with his own views.

(The last point doesn't just apply to Catholics, of course -- Gore and a number of others have made the same "odyssey" from what I suspect were their sincere beliefs to a conformance with the tide of opinion around them, and to passing the one great litmus test of the modern national Democratic party: being in favor of killing the unborn. You can support or oppose war, or be fairly rightward on economics, but you can't oppose that!)

1) It's about murdering the innocent, with no ambiguous pragmatic "is it a just case?" points as with, say, any particular war

This is only true if you think women's rights aren't worth a crap, Marquis. And that gets us back to the real reason why conservative Catholics hate abortion.

The last point doesn't just apply to Catholics, of course -- Gore and a number of others have made the same "odyssey" from what I suspect were their sincere beliefs to a conformance with the tide of opinion around them, and to passing the one great litmus test of the modern national Democratic party: being in favor of killing the unborn.

FYI, Marquis, just as many people who are pro-choice flip-flopped the other way (e.g., Reagan, Bush 41, Romney). And since THAT decision screws over women, not blastocysts, it actually is immoral.

Marquis,

I agree with most of what you said, but i don't know if you're correct about Kucinich. I suspect that he is, even now, not particularly happy about abortion, and that he's faking his new pro-choice beliefs as much as much as Romney is faking his pro-life ones. I know that more than a few of the NARAL, NOW type liberals are not happy with Kucinich because he was pro-life until only a few years ago, and they suspect that he will be lukewarm at best in defence of abortion.

I actually hope very strongly that the Catholic church will go ahead, act on its threats, and excommunicate pro-choice Catholic Democrats. Even though I'm neither Catholic nor a conservative. I want it to happen because I think that it would force Catholic Democrats to make a choice between their conscience and political expediency. And I think enough of most Democratic politicians to believe that they would choose their faith over their politics. It would be bad for the Democrats in the short run, but good for them in the long run, because it would set them free of the albatross around their neck.

Dilan and Moe, maybe you can answer this. Why is it that of all the issues out there, the ONE that the Democrats are willing to go to the wall over, is the right to abortion.

Dilan,

I walked past a display case in my university yesterday, with an embryology exhibit inside it. One of the items on display is a four month old baby preserved in formalin. (kind of grotesque, i know.) this is a high ranked public university in a blue state, so it's not some kind of pro-life propaganda. that baby looks as human as you or me. go look at a picture of a three month old baby, and then tell me it isn't a person.

Would you, personally, be willing to use the vacuum tube on that little baby curled up in it's mother's womb. If not, which I hope not, then your heart knows better than your mind.

Hector,

I think you're right about Kucinich. Don't you think that is more damning than a genuine change of opinion, though?

Marquis,

Maybe. It's an interesting question....is it worse to be enthusiastically pro-choice or to knuckle under out of cowardice?

BTW, is it OK for a Catholic to vote for a pro-choice candidate...what's the current teaching of the bishops? I'm not Catholic but I would like to know what they are advising. I might vote Democrat next year, or I might simply not vote (i would rather vote for a purple dog than Republican).

I think that the idea of encouraging women to name their aborted babies, which I recently heard about happening at some Project Rachel retreats, is a really good idea. Actually I think Project Rachel in general is a pretty good idea. Maybe the first step in encouraging us as a society to recognize their humanity.

I actually hope very strongly that the Catholic church will go ahead, act on its threats, and excommunicate pro-choice Catholic Democrats.

How about pro-choice Catholic Republicans, Hector?

Dilan and Moe, maybe you can answer this. Why is it that of all the issues out there, the ONE that the Democrats are willing to go to the wall over, is the right to abortion.

That's not true. Sam Alito and John Roberts got Democratic votes in the Senate, despite that they are quite possible votes to overturn Roe. Scalia got a lot of Democratic votes. The Democratic Senate Minority Leader, the highest or second highest political position held by ANY national Democrat, is a pro-life Mormon from Nevada. The Democratic establishment endorsed Bob Casey because it wanted to win a Pennsylvania statewide race against a pro-choice opponent.

Yes, many pro-choice Democrats feel this is the most important issue. But many others don't-- personally, I would vote for a pro-lifer who would end the Iraq War completely, enact single payer health care, and keep us out of Iran.

To those who do think it is the most important issue, it is because of their profound commitment to women's rights-- and especially their belief that one of the great accomplishments of the last 50 years is that a woman can have a sex life, have a career, and not be forced to have children she doesn't want or isn't ready for. That's more important to them than a theoretical claim that's made about life in a petri dish. And they are right.

I walked past a display case in my university yesterday, with an embryology exhibit inside it. One of the items on display is a four month old baby preserved in formalin. (kind of grotesque, i know.) this is a high ranked public university in a blue state, so it's not some kind of pro-life propaganda. that baby looks as human as you or me. go look at a picture of a three month old baby, and then tell me it isn't a person.

Four months is a second trimester abortion, Hector. I am the first to concede (as did Roe) that as gestation proceeds, the interests of the fetus increase.

But at least 95 percent of the abortions that you hate so much occur in the first trimester, before the 12th week, when the fetus is much smaller. Many are now RU486 abortions that occur when the fetus cannot even be recognized. And the embryonic stem cell experiments you hate are done on microscopic blastocysts.

My problem with pro-lifers is precisely that they CAN'T recognize the difference between that fetus you looked at and a blastocyst which has no interests whatsoever.

1.3 million abortions in 2004. A massive movement of women into the workforce since 1972. A massive increase in the social, financial and political power of women since 1972.

yeah, prohibition of abortion will be just like turning the clock back to 1971.

Marquis, please speculate. What do you think will happen if the Sup Ct. overturns Roe and allows states to ban all abortions?

Dilan,

I'm not a Republican, and I don't care what the Republicans do. Let them be the pro-choice party if they want as they were when Governors Reagan and Rockefeller signed the first abortion laws in the country. Frankly, I don't expect anything better of the Republicans. I do expect something better of my party, the Democrats. I expect them to be the party of Sargent Shriver like they used to be.

I like what that one Catholic priest said when talking about why they were going to try excommunicating Democrats but not Giuliani..."We don't need to excommunicate Giuliani because he's already excommunicated himself' or something to that effect.

And no, Dilan, "Roe" doesn't protect a single baby. It is legal in this country to crush the skull of an almost born baby, and dismember it and then throw it in a waste bin. Right up to the day of birth, as long as you can find a doctor who writes you a permission slip. It's your side who will not accept a single restriction on abortion. It's your side who will not even let people pray in front of an abortion clinic in Boston or LA! You are the ones who are refusing any compromise here. Not us.

Dilan wrote:

"This is only true if you think women's rights aren't worth a crap, Marquis. And that gets us back to the real reason why conservative Catholics hate abortion."

Right, because the pro-choice position is automatically the pro-woman's position. That must be why Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and Victoria Woodhull opposed abortion, because they were secretly campaigning against the rights of women while publicly campaigning for the right to vote. Clever women they were!

This also surely explains why, according to a 2003 poll published by the pro-abortion Center for Advancement of Women, 51% of women in America think abortion should either be illegal outright or illegal with exceptions for when the life of the mother is at stake or when the pregnancy results from incest or rape. A 1998 poll by the feminist group Center for Gender Equality found that 53% of American women held the same position. In other words, a majority of women think roughly 95% of the abortions that take place today should be banned.

I guess these women just don't think that they deserve equal rights.

Dilan, an overwhelming amount of evidence has been presented on this board that directly refutes your assertion that all women think the way you think they should. There have been polls, discussions of Project Rachel (a group sponsored by the woman-hating Catholic Church that helps women deal with the after-effects of abortion), discussions of crisis-pregnancy centers and how much they are staffed by women, and more.

Through all of this, you have consistently ignored the evidence and continued to breezily assert something which is patently false. The irony here is that you are the first to dismiss members of the religious right when the topic is evolution because of their inability to confront the evidence. Yet you are just as allergic to evidence when the topic switches to abortion.

"To those who do think it is the most important issue, it is because of their profound commitment to women's rights-- and especially their belief that one of the great accomplishments of the last 50 years is that a woman can have a sex life, have a career, and not be forced to have children she doesn't want or isn't ready for. That's more important to them than a theoretical claim that's made about life in a petri dish. And they are right."

Again, I guess that a majority of women in America are just not committed to women's rights in this country. At least not as committed as Dilan is.

And your comment about the petri dishes is disingenuous. You leap nimbly from women wanting to have careers and active sex lives to...petri dishes? We're talking about abortion here, where the fetus that is being killed is much more developed than any embryo formed in a petri dish.

I have also presented evidence that shows that a majority of women who have abortions in this country are poor minorities. Most of the working women you care so much about get where they are without needing to have an abortion. And I would also really like to see your evidence that the abortion rate today currently includes ones brought about by RU-486.

"But at least 95 percent of the abortions that you hate so much occur in the first trimester, before the 12th week, when the fetus is much smaller."

Ah, so personhood and the corresponding right to life is a function of your size? So the bigger you get, the stronger your claim to personhood and the right to life? Since I'm 6'1, and my son is not yet 3 feet tall, does that mean that my son does not have as strong a claim on the right to life as I do?

Francis wrote:

"Marquis, please speculate. What do you think will happen if the Sup Ct. overturns Roe and allows states to ban all abortions?"

Since states won't vote to ban all abortions, my guess is that TMoC doesn't need to spend much time thinking about this hypothetical. South Dakota just recently voted down a poorly-written bill that would have banned most abortions. Since South Dakota is a fairly socially-conservative state--and again it voted down a law which would have banned most, but not all, abortions--then it's safe to dismiss your alarmist hypothetical question.

BTW, is it OK for a Catholic to vote for a pro-choice candidate...what's the current teaching of the bishops?

Narrowly, sure it is. For example, if Giuliani is running against Clinton, come the November 08, I don't think my bishop will have a problem with me voting either way, rather than for a third party candidate. Whether I'd actually vote for either is a different matter -- even if Giuliani were pro-life he wouldn't be high on my list of possible good presidents, and I can't imagine voting for Clinton under circumstances that are within the realm of the remotely probable.

In general, if some other issues weigh strongly enough, it might even be possible to vote for a pro-choice candidate against a pro-life one -- the bishops haven't been clear about what weighs how -- a pro-life candidate who wanted to, say, invade Canada would probably be ok to vote against, even if her opponent was very pro-choice! Prudential concerns come into play -- voting for a pro-choice governor or state legislator is in many ways less problematic because currently they often have relatively little to do with abortion policy.

Dilan: Reid is at best very weakly pro-life. Check his ratings (and his actual voting record, especially recently). He has some pro-life leanings, but he'd be seen as moderately pro-choice were he in the GOP, I think.

Franics: I really don't understand your understanding of American politics. If abortion is so unpopular that it'd be banned in many states, then it's an outright travesty that it's protected by the Supreme Court, and the minority that supports it would just make a black market, not overthrow the system or bring about a police state. In reality, "blue" states won't touch abortion, at least not until public opinion changes en masses, and even most "quite pink" states won't manage only-life-of-mother-or-rape-or-incest bans. A few very conservative states will manage those. And traveling to nearby states for abortions will be possible. It's true that the financial consequences for abortionists will be pretty dire.

"We don't need to excommunicate Giuliani because he's already excommunicated himself' or something to that effect.

Hector, believe it or not, now I get to lecture you on Catholic doctrine. Formal church excommunication and self-excommunication by conduct are two different concepts, with the former being a much more severe sanction.

It is my understanding that under the views of conservatives within the Church (though NOT, importantly, most of the American membership), pro-choice Catholic politicians of either party have self-excommunicated. That is the basis for the claim that they should be denied communion. The issue of formal excommunication is a separate, more drastic matter.

Fighting for majoritarian politics, we have the Marquis:

If abortion is so unpopular that it'd be banned in many states, then it's an outright travesty that it's protected by the Supreme Court

and in the other corner, we have the 5th and 14th Amendment to the US Constitution:

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

...

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

the meaning of the words liberty, due process and equal protection is, of course, so perfectly clear that no reasonable person could possibly believe that the right of a woman to control her reproductive decisionmaking without state interference is covered by those terms.

or not.

That must be why Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and Victoria Woodhull opposed abortion, because they were secretly campaigning against the rights of women while publicly campaigning for the right to vote. Clever women they were!

Torourke, many abolitionists felt that blacks and whites were unequal and that segregation was justified. Why? Because to be a civil rights advocate in the 19th Century was different than to be one in the 21st Century.

That goes double for abortion, because abortions back then, like all medical procedures, were often unsafe, and women were often trapped in patriarchal relationships where the HUSBAND was ordering the abortion.

Using 19th and early 20th Century feminists who lived in a very different world to justify 21st Century oppression of women is despicable and shameful.

This also surely explains why, according to a 2003 poll published by the pro-abortion Center for Advancement of Women, 51% of women in America think abortion should either be illegal outright or illegal with exceptions for when the life of the mother is at stake or when the pregnancy results from incest or rape.

Lots of people collaborate in their own oppression, you know. The issue is whether those people have any business stopping the other 49 percent (or that portion of the 51 percent which has hypocritically HAD abortions) from having them.

If you go to Africa, you will find that female genital cutting is supported by and conducted by women. That doesn't mean that they are right or that what they are doing is good for women.

Dilan, an overwhelming amount of evidence has been presented on this board that directly refutes your assertion that all women think the way you think they should.

It doesn't matter what they think. I want to make sure that even the most pro-life woman can sneak off to the clinic and have an abortion when she gets pregnant and decides she cannot care for the child. I care about THE ACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF WOMEN, not their opinion on the political issue. And NO woman is worse off because of legal abortion. They don't have to have it, but it is an OPTION that will help a lot of them further their careers and have enjoyable sex lives and not be tied down by oppressive men. That is good enough to me.

We're talking about abortion here, where the fetus that is being killed is much more developed than any embryo formed in a petri dish.

95 percent of all abortions are first trimester abortions. Most of those fetuses are tiny with very few, if any, humanlike features.

I have also presented evidence that shows that a majority of women who have abortions in this country are poor minorities. Most of the working women you care so much about get where they are without needing to have an abortion.

Really? If you actually talk to urban successful women-- the most admirable role models of ANY women in society-- you will find that is not true. Legalized abortion is a HUGE issue for them.

You have a bunch of dumb assumptions about women that come from reading pro-life propaganda and apparently not knowing any women who have succeeded in corporate America.

And by the way, it is not a bad thing when poor women have abortions either. Those abortions keep them in school, keep them independent of abusive husbands and boyfriends, and often save their lives.

Ah, so personhood and the corresponding right to life is a function of your size?

You are, like most extremist pro-lifers, completely oblivious. It isn't just size, it's ATTRIBUTES. A zygote isn't simply SMALLER than a person, it's DIFFERENT from one. It doesn't have a brain, it doesn't have a nervous system, it is not conscious, it doesn't have organs, it doesn't have limbs, it doesn't have a will to live, it doesn't have hopes, dreams, and ambitions.

As the fetus develops, it develops some of those things. But you will note that it isn't just a matter of size.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY-- that fetus is inside an ACTUAL WOMAN who has all those things, and whose life should never be screwed up because of the backwards and sexist desires of religious zealots to enforce biblical gender roles. THOSE interests are among the most important societal interests, and far outweigh the alleged rights of the tiny organism inside the uterus.

Dilan: Reid is at best very weakly pro-life. Check his ratings (and his actual voting record, especially recently). He has some pro-life leanings, but he'd be seen as moderately pro-choice were he in the GOP, I think.

Marquis, you miss the point, which is that if the Democrats were really enforcing the pro-choice orthodoxy in the sense that it was suggested by Hector, Reid would have never become Majority Leader.

Francis, don't throw around the 14th amendment when it does little for your side. The 14th amendment, properly interpreted, is pro-life. Unborn babies should not be unfairly deprived of their lives without due process.

The right to 'liberty' under the 14th amendment was also used to justify the right to employ children and people for below the minimum wage. The Southerners used to talk about their 'rights' to enslave and segregate African Americans. That is exactly analogous to the abortion issue. Nobody has the right to abort their child any more than they have the right to enslave someone or to hire someone for below minimum wage.

And NO woman is worse off because of legal abortion.

Dilan, unless you're an idiot, I don't see how you can believe that. No woman's ever aborted, under family or boyfriend pressure, when she REALLY REALLY wanted the baby, and would have been much happier with it, and lives with guilt, and wouldn't have gone to a back alley clinic if it was illegal? Only in a fantasy world. Pro-choice people who idolize abortion as a choice that only ends for the better don't do their side much credit.

Even if you think abortion should be legal, it seems beyond absurd to think that the legality of abortion hasn't undermined a case made by some woman, somewhere, who did something against her judgment and regrets it.

Have you, perchance, met any actual women? Any actual people?

Really? If you actually talk to urban successful women-- the most admirable role models of ANY women in society-- you will find that is not true. Legalized abortion is a HUGE issue for them.

The "most admirable"? Urban people are simply better? Success always follows decency, or some other quality that makes some people inherently better than others?

I think part of this just comes down to superficial, success-and-power-and-sex hungry jerks being Dilan's ideal people. That's a view of humanity that I find repulsive, so I don't have much in common with him when it comes to how our laws should work, either.

Dilan,

The early 20th century feminists knew better than the pro-abortion feminists that you hang out with, apparently.

So the 'role models' you advocate are apparently the corporate boardroom women that you keep going on about. Well, they're not my idea of good role models. If 'success' means being a well paid marketing executive who succeeds on the basis of boundless ambition, avarice, and 'killer instinct', has a big house in the suburbs, big car, no kids and doesn't want them, goes home with guys she meets at the bar and then takes care of it with an abortion, then I can think of better words to describe someone like that than 'successful'.

The women who hold pro-life views often suffer for them by being forced to have children at times when they are not ready for them. They are willing to undergo that suffering and that sacrifice of their life plans because of their love for unborn children and their unwillingness to hurt them. In their suffering and in their sacrifice lies their glory and their spiritual beauty. It would seem to me that if you really respected women so much but then again, abortion at least in the USA has never been about respecting women. it's been about treating their children as disposable and forcing them to deny their own essential nature and to kill their own children.

If you think that most women who have abortions today are not bullied into it by abusive men, you're sadly mistaken.

The 14th amendment, properly interpreted, is pro-life.

OK, Hector, let's be honest here. Do you know anything about the subject of constitutional interpretation? I do, and you are simply full of crap.

Consider the following:

1. The 14th Amendment, in its privileges and immunities clause, refers to all persons BORN in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction having the right to all privileges and immunities of citizenship. That suggests that the authors DID NOT believe "unborn persons" had rights.

2. There is extensive historical evidence about the purpose of the 14th Amendment. The narrow purpose was to extend civil and political rights to the freed slaves. The broader purpose-- which not everyone agrees was actually intended-- was to establish a principle of civic equality among persons similiarly situated. Neither of those purposes had anything to do with abortion.

3. It is perfectly clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's due process provisions DO NOT apply to discrimination against the very young. Nobody believed it outlawed child labor, which continued well into the 20th Century. Nobody believed it regulated corporal punishment of children or subjected it to due process requirements. So you would have us believe that a provision that had no application to 12 year olds nonetheless conferred rights on the unborn?

Outside of right wing "make up the Constitution and claim it supports whatever we'd like it to" land, no serious person believes that the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits abortion. Not one. Originalists like Bork and Scalia don't buy it. Living Constitution types like Ginsburg don't buy it either. Nor does any respectable legal scholar.

But I guess the BS put out by marginal pro-life organizations-- who wouldn't give a crap about the actual meaning of the Constitution except if it favors their position-- is the last word on this subject, right?

No woman's ever aborted, under family or boyfriend pressure, when she REALLY REALLY wanted the baby, and would have been much happier with it, and lives with guilt, and wouldn't have gone to a back alley clinic if it was illegal?

The fact that a woman might believe she is worse off doesn't mean she is actually worse off. Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

The "most admirable"? Urban people are simply better? Success always follows decency, or some other quality that makes some people inherently better than others?

Women who overcome adversity and discrimination to succeed in the outside world, using their minds and their talents to benefit themselves and others and contribute to prosperity, are the most accomplished and admirable women in the world. That's right, Hector. They are among the people who have actualized their potential, rather than giving it up to do what some man or group of men wants them to.

If some woman or man who HASN'T actualized his or her own potential wants to hold those women back, that is extremely bad for society.

Legalized abortion is necessary for these women to actualize their potential (and have a fulfilling sex life with anyone and any number of people they want to) without being derailed by a pregnancy. And that's more important than uneducated hallucinatory religious superstitions about how a clump of cells is really something other than a clump of cells.

I'm pretty much with Dilan and Scalia and Bork in noting that this 14th Amendment stuff is nonsense. The pro-choice reading is also nonsense, and not exactly the heart of Roe v. Wade, such as that bad case was, either. But the pro-life reading is junk, too. The Constitution is, in fact, simply silent on abortion. Too bad, perhaps, but true.

The early 20th century feminists knew better than the pro-abortion feminists that you hang out with, apparently.

Hector, they were living in an era when ABORTION WAS UNSAFE and MARRIAGES WERE UNEQUAL and DIVORCE WAS NOT AVAILABLE.

In those situations, feminists may come to different conclusions about abortion. But not because they "knew better", but because the world is different.

Let me give you an example of something going on right now. In parts of the world where sex selection abortions are rampant, some feminists oppose abortion. Why? Because all the girls are being aborted. And that's a respectable feminist position (though there are counterarguments). It also HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ANTIFEMINIST PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH INCLUDES MANY PEOPLE (not the whole movement, but many people) WHO ARE MYSOGYNISTIC AND THINK THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE FORCED TO BEAR CHILDREN BECAUSE IT WILL CREATE INCENTIVES TO FORCE THEM INTO MARRIAGES WHERE THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON MEN AND FORCE THEM TO STOP HAVING SO MUCH ALLEGEDLY "SINFUL" NONPROCREATIVE SEX.

You see, you can babble on and on about how in other contexts a feminist can oppose abortion. BUT NOT IN THIS CONTEXT. Opposing abortion IN PRESENT-DAY AMERICA is anti-woman, because IN PRESENT-DAY AMERICA abortion is a tool that allows women to actualize their potential, avoid dependence on men, and have great satisfying nonprocreative orgasms with whomever they want to.

Re: Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

There seems to be a misimpression in these types of debates that any time a woman bears a child she has no option but to rear it herself whether she has the resources and maturity to do so or not. Haven't you heard of "adoption"? Some years ago friends had a 15 year old daughter, a bit of a hell-raiser (and she still is at 25) who came home pregnant. The girl had the child (she wanted that) but gave it up for adoption through Catholic Social Services. The child was raised by a good family and the girl received (perhaps still does) occasional updates on his progress. Seems that everything worked out well for everyone, including the unborn child.

JonF,

That's a nice and heartwarming story. I was under the impression though that birth mothers usually are not allowed to know about the fate of their child, and vice versa...i.e. the adoption is completely 'closed'. which seems like it would be a sad situation. it's nice to hear that it's not always the case....is it changing?

Dilan,

Just because a practice has good effects (and actually, i don't think that enthroning the right of women to be as greedy, corrupt, selfish and promiscuous as men have traditionally been, is that good of an effect at all), doesn't make it right.

We could probably reduce the health care costs of our society by simply killing all the sick people. It would probably be good from a Darwinian fitness point of view, too. Certainly make the species stronger, and all that. Would that make it right?

Re: The fact that a woman might believe she is worse off doesn't mean she is actually worse off. Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

You know, the great thing about false consciousness arguments is that it's a game anyone can play. I choose to believe that just because women who are denied the right to an abortion think they are worse off, doesn't mean they actually are. I choose to believe that those women are actually better off for having been saved from the corruption of the American boardrooms and saved for the joys of motherhood. I choose to believe that if the women of America were all actuated by Rousseau's famous 'general will', then they would choose to be mothers rather than corporate executives. And you know, as long as we are arguing false consciousness, neither of us can prove the other one wrong.

Leaving aside the false consciousness argument, I am really saddened (but not really surprised) by your blindness to the realities that there are things some people value more than money, freedom, and comfort. Can you not understand how a woman might value being able to bear and raise a child, to bring new life into the world, to have a baby to love and hold, more than being wealthy and powerful by the standards of the world. Can you not understand how a woman might love her unborn baby and feel tremendous guilt and depression and hate herself for the rest of her life for giving in to the pressures from her parents/boyfriend/the pro-choice lobby.

The Planned Parenthood would apparently scoff at those women and tell them to go home, have a stiff drink, forget about all their quaint medieval superstitions, and show up to work at the sacred corporate boardroom the next day. Well, I'm glad that there is at least one organization that will welcome those women in, listen to their tears and their guilt and nightmares, and at the end of it all ask them to name their lost baby, so that when they meet their baby in heaven, they can embrace him or her and greet them by name.

I will go further....EVERY woman who has ever had an abortion is worse off for it, spiritually if not materially, even if she doesn't yet know it. Except when the mother's life is at stake, and perhaps a few other exceptions abortion is never the right choice.

The fact that a woman might believe she is worse off doesn't mean she is actually worse off. Babies cost money, they ruin careers and education, and they make women dependent on men.

Oh come on, Dilan. You're being stupid, or you're an anti-human monster of some sort. No baby has ever been a good choice for anyone? Too bloody bad you weren't put down before birth, I guess, since you cost your parents money and ruined at least your mother's life. This is insane -- unless you think that _every choice to have a child is wrong_, you have to admit that someone, somewhere, might have come out worse because of legal abortion. Look, this isn't granting much -- I think that it's great that it's legal to buy books, but someone, somewhere, has probably had a worse life because of that freedom.

Or maybe the straightforward, lunatic reading is right -- you actually think having a child is always a bad choice, and are not just in favor of freedom to abort, but believe all children should be aborted, for the good of the mother.

Also, people in Dilan's world have much happier and orgasms-only sex lives than real people, it appears. Further evidence he's either not met any actual women, or that he is, in fact, a Strong Libertarian, and thus does not live in consensus reality.

No baby has ever been a good choice for anyone?

That's not what I said. What I said is that the conjectured woman who doesn't have her baby because she chose to have an abortion and later regretted it, is not worse off because she didn't have the baby. She's better off, because she has more life choices available to her.

In contrast, a woman who is forced to carry and bear a child she doesn't want (and by the way, even the pregnancy is a big disruption which is why adoption is not the solution) IS worse off without the abortion right.

Also, people in Dilan's world have much happier and orgasms-only sex lives than real people, it appears.

Marquis, the point isn't that everyone's gonna have an orgasm whenever they want to. It's that everyone who WANTS to have a sex life that isn't within the narrow definition of what a ostensibly celibate religious leader in Rome approves of should be able to have it.

You miss the point of my comments, and this probably gets to the labeling issue of why pro-choicers call themselves pro-choice. If some women want to marry at 18, never work outside the home, have 6 babies, etc., that's their choice. But we must make the LEGAL RULES based on those women who do choose to actualize their potential, in the bedroom and in the boardroom. They must have the choice to have an abortion rather than playing by the rules that the rural teenage mother who has no greater ambitions plays by.

It is good for all women to have those choices, even though some will never exercise them, and it is good for society to get the maximum amount of talent into the workplace, including those women who might get held back by a pregnancy.

And the fact that devout religious Catholics can't recognize these things just shows you the folly of believing in things that were written 2,000 years ago by people who had no idea how society would work two millenia later.

She's better off, because she has more life choices available to her.

You know this? Maybe in her case, she would have been better off having the baby. Come on, denying this makes you look like a fool, as far as I can see. There's no reason to stick to this point. Someone could MAKE A MISTAKE and HAVE AN ABORTION that, counterfactually speaking (that is, we compare the outcomes in a hypothetical world where they had the baby), left them worse off. You can't define "better off" only in terms of "more life choices" -- and perhaps the woman became infertile for some reason after that, and so this was her last chance to be a mother, so she has less life choices, now. It's just absurd. It's a logical, philosophical point. But not granting it shows such an absurd and inhumane, dogmatic and malicious view of human life's purposes and such a monstrous antipathy to the idea of motherhood that it makes you look much more like a heartless demon than I imagine you are.

Again, who do choose to actualize their potential is, frankly, Nazi-speak to me. So women who are good mothers "only" rather than contributors to the engines of capitalism, aren't actualizing potential? Or men, for that matter, since if parenthood is un-actualizing work for women it can't be much good for men, either, I guess. You think people who make certain choices are _inferior_. It's in every word you write. You're a bigot, not just anti-Catholic, but anti- anyone who doesn't fetishize success and sex the way you do. A more intellectual version of the vapid malice that makes a COSMO or MAXIM magazine.

More generally, I think that "maximizing life choices" is a nice summary of the nastiness of a certain view of life. Loyalty and love do not maximize choices. Being unrooted, disloyal, cruel, and powerful maximizes pure choice, in a sense. The man with a conscience has a very limited set of choices in life; the man without conscience can choose to act well, but is not forced too, and he can certainly make more money, if he's smart enough to avoid getting caught. Maximizing choice is the life program of a thug, a cheat, or a sociopath. That some "liberals" fetishize it as the Good Life or an actual goal in itself speaks to the roaring vacuums at the heart of many people, and many ideas.

This is, as some noted in the analysis of the Sopranos, the appeal of the life of a mob BOSS -- his choices are maximized. He can even KILL PEOPLE, a choice most of us don't get -- it's ver nice. It's very free. He can make his money and pleasure first principles, only determines by the need to survive long enough to enjoy them (an optimization problem, rather than a real constraint like morality or love).

So women who are good mothers "only" rather than contributors to the engines of capitalism, aren't actualizing potential?

An intelligent woman who could be running a fortune 500 company but instead spends her days doing menial tasks that require no brainpower and which could be hired out is not actualizing her potential, and that choice-- while it is hers to make, if she can afford it-- is bad for society because it takes a person out of the workforce who could be contributing to the greater good.

Legalized abortion facilitates a society where those women who want to work and have enjoyable sex lives can do so.

You can't define "better off" only in terms of "more life choices" -- and perhaps the woman became infertile for some reason after that, and so this was her last chance to be a mother, so she has less life choices, now.

One can always become a mother, Marquis. There are plenty of children to adopt in this world.

You're a bigot, not just anti-Catholic, but anti- anyone who doesn't fetishize success and sex the way you do.

Marquis, again, I stand for the right of all those devout Catholic mothers who just want to marry early and take care of the kids to do so, so long as they can afford it. I don't see how that is bigotry.

I am for giving people the CHOICE to do something different, something that will allow society to take advantage of the talents of closer to 100 percent of its adult population. And yes, I think that is the right choice. But I don't believe in using government power to stop women from making other choices.

Only a warped mind would call that a form of bigotry.

You, on the other hand, want to use government power to FORECLOSE life choices.

More generally, I think that "maximizing life choices" is a nice summary of the nastiness of a certain view of life. Loyalty and love do not maximize choices. Being unrooted, disloyal, cruel, and powerful maximizes pure choice, in a sense. The man with a conscience has a very limited set of choices in life; the man without conscience can choose to act well, but is not forced too, and he can certainly make more money, if he's smart enough to avoid getting caught. Maximizing choice is the life program of a thug, a cheat, or a sociopath. That some "liberals" fetishize it as the Good Life or an actual goal in itself speaks to the roaring vacuums at the heart of many people, and many ideas.

What's missing in your vision, Marquis, is any mention of gender equality. I think equality is the single most important value-- we all must have the same opportunity to actualize our potential, without regard to our gender. It's more important than any of the stuff you mention in that paragraph.

I don't think you even believe in it-- or at the very least, you ignore it whenever it conflicts with anything that your untrue religious beliefs teach you.

I think equality is the single most important value

If equality is more important than love and more important than loyalty (without which there can be little love among humans, for one thing), yes, that is a rather significant divergence between us. Actualizing our potential to contribute to the engines of society -- for what purpose? You have no notion of anything higher than a good lay or loads of money, as far as I can tell. Your "equality" is all in pursuit of toys and orgasms, which doesn't even raise it to a very high level of equality in th eyes of most thinkers on that subject, as far as I can see.

You don't have to be a conservative Catholic to find a world view that thinks equality (in producing economic benefits for society alone, as far as I can tell) is more important than love is selfish, nasty, and inhumane. It's a popular POV among young, amoral, intelligent, emotionally stunted men, though. Oddly enough, for sexual reasons (I suppose) it seems to appear more on the left these days (true socialism is dead so the left isn't much to fear for the intelligent get-ahead guy -- it won't rob you, and it will help you get laid), and the Randian types on the right who are (to my old eyes) quite similar seem less a presence.

My goodness. What a dehumanizing and empty view of human nature Dilan seems to have.

Marquis, I don't particularly see that 'equality' is very important to Dilan's worldview. Quite the opposite, in fact. Look at the last few posts of his. He wants the world to be divided between the stupid rural women who do the hired labor and bear the children, and the smart, urban advertising executives who have fun in the bedroom and make lots of money in the boardroom and don't bother about menial labor like changing diapers, nursing babies, or sweeping their own homes. That isn't equality, it's aristocracy.

your precious boardroom/bedroom women are no better than the impoverished teenage welfare mother, and morally speaking probably a good bit worse. at least the welfare mothers have the decency not to kill their own children in pursuit of more money and more orgasms.

The idea that you can and should just 'hire out' labor is at the root of all that i hate about capitalism, but you want to go one better on capitalism. you want to hire out everything, not just work, but motherhood! a more sweeping acknowledgement of modern American society is hard to imagine. Come on Dilan, come clean....you don't believe all this, do you? It sounds like a parody., "fun in the bedroom and power in the boardroom." I know a lot of pro-choice people (having grown up in MA) and very few of them talk like you.

Marquis,

I don't know that Dilan is particularly on the 'left'. the pursuit of more money, more power and more organsms, there's nothing remotely 'left' about that. You could say, I guess, that the root of Dilan's worldview is freedom, maybe- not equality, but freedom (i.e. 'more life choices'.)

But freedom isn't the highest thing, it isn't even among the highest class of things. Read what Simone Weil had to say about the hierarchy of values. There are some things that are good in and of themselves- courage, hope, generosity, friendliness, loyalty, honor, justice, charity, love, etc. And then there are those secondary values that have value inasmuch as we need them to pursue the primary goods. Freedom has value inasmuch as it allows us to pursue love, loyalty, honor, charity, etc. But to mistake freedom and 'choice' alone for the highest goods is to make what Simone called the root of most twentieth-century moral error, which is the mistaking of the means for the end.

Marquis,

true socialism still has more than a bit of purchase in the Third World, particularly in Latin America. It's more or less dead in the US, but it will probably come back if and when the US economy collapses. I think that people's faith in the US politico-economic system is largely a result of the fact that the US system works, and when the system fails to work anymore, many people's faith in it will go away.

Actualizing our potential to contribute to the engines of society -- for what purpose?

To produce the material benefits and progress that make our lives so much better than those of the hunters and gatherers, and which will make the lives of those 20 generations out so much better than ours.

Marquis, I don't particularly see that 'equality' is very important to Dilan's worldview. Quite the opposite, in fact. Look at the last few posts of his. He wants the world to be divided between the stupid rural women who do the hired labor and bear the children, and the smart, urban advertising executives who have fun in the bedroom and make lots of money in the boardroom and don't bother about menial labor like changing diapers, nursing babies, or sweeping their own homes. That isn't equality, it's aristocracy.

Now that's just silly. I am not a socialist. I want equality of opportunity. But I don't think society should favor EITHER of those groups; society should just create the baseline rules necessary to permit women to pursue either objective, or some other, if she wishes.

your precious boardroom/bedroom women are no better than the impoverished teenage welfare mother, and morally speaking probably a good bit worse. at least the welfare mothers have the decency not to kill their own children in pursuit of more money and more orgasms.

Only they are not killing "their own children". They are killing something that narrow minded religious zealots who don't know how to make distinctions equate with a child, but which actually isn't the same thing.

a more sweeping acknowledgement of modern American society is hard to imagine. Come on Dilan, come clean....you don't believe all this, do you? It sounds like a parody., "fun in the bedroom and power in the boardroom." I know a lot of pro-choice people (having grown up in MA) and very few of them talk like you.

Hector, modern American society is GOOD. We live better lives than the people who lived under Roman Catholic religious rule over the last 2,000 years. Our society is freer, we have more material possesions, we are more equal, we are better educated, etc.

Look, if you guys want to argue the innate superiority of life when the Catholic Church was in charge-- dark ages, inquisitions, crusades, patriarchy, heresy and blasphemy trials, etc.-- go ahead. I will take 21st Century America any day of the week, and it precisely because the feminist revolution has made us more equal and has allowed us to realize the prosperity that comes from utilizing the talents of as many of us as possible.

More importantly, though, modern America just is. In other words, you guys can blather on and on about how there's no purpose, how love and loyalty are more important than prosperity and equality, etc. It doesn't matter. Your society is DEAD. Your God is dead too-- church attendance is way down, and very few people believe that sex is about procreation, that artificial birth control is sinful, that any sex outside of a marriage for any reason is wrong, and that gays and lesbians should not be able to be who they are.

Even if you guys were right that we made this fundamental wrong turn somewhere along the line, turning away from God and virtue and love and justice, we aren't turning back. That's the thing about modern society-- it's modern. You guys are arguing for some premordial virtue that doesn't exist anymore. All we have is the prosperity that we can build for ourselves, and that is all we will ever have. And to build it, we need the contributions of everyone in society, men and women.

"You have a bunch of dumb assumptions about women that come from reading pro-life propaganda and apparently not knowing any women who have succeeded in corporate America."

I provided polls from a pro-abortion group and a feminist group, and you call this propaganda. You give us the opinions of your friends in the corporate world, and pretend that this represents the desires of all women in spite of the mountain of evidence to the contrary. Your evidence-free assertions, compounded by your keyboard-pounding caps, and complete inability to debate without assuming the worst among your ideological opponents has revealed who the real zealot is.

You also might want to do a little research before spouting off tired anti-Catholic arguments. For example, the Catholic Church in Ireland was hugely important in keeping Greek learning alive during the Dark Ages and then re-introducing it to a continent that had nearly lost the foundation of Western thought. The Catholic Church brought us out of the Dark Ages and did an incredible amount to build Western Civilization. I realize that your anti-Catholic bigotry runs pretty deep, but you might want to do at least some research before writing complete nonsense.

And you can point to declining church attendance in the West as some sort of victory for all the forces of truth and righteousness all you want, but you might want to temper your enthusiasm given that the religiously-inclined at least have a demographic future as opposed to the aging and decaying Europe. There won't be much of a victory party for secularism when no one is around to celebrate it. Of course, having a demographic future kind of depends on having kids, but I guess lefties like you can fill in all the extra time you have on your hands by congratulating each other on how profound your understanding of sex is along with how well you are all actualizing your potential.

By the way, I'm married to a doctor, and amazingly enough she does not credit her achievements to the availability of abortion-on-demand, although I realize that this might disqualify her as an "actual, successful" woman in your view. And I have to note that my favorite part of this back-and-forth was your brush-off of the polls I presented by remarking that "lots of people collaborate in their own oppression", and then later "It doesn't matter what they [a majority of women in America] think." This from the self-proclaimed defender of gender equality. Priceless!

Hector,

Ok, true. I just meant that Dilan and similar thinkers (how much is rhetoric and posture vs. actual adulation of selfishness, God knows) tend these days to more identify with the Democrats who are, such as it goes, "the party of the left" in the US. The religion stuff taints the Republicans too much, I guess, and the economic policies that matter for this view aren't much up for dispute? Metaphysical cooties.

You also might want to do a little research before spouting off tired anti-Catholic arguments. For example, the Catholic Church in Ireland was hugely important in keeping Greek learning alive during the Dark Ages and then re-introducing it to a continent that had nearly lost the foundation of Western thought. The Catholic Church brought us out of the Dark Ages and did an incredible amount to build Western Civilization. I realize that your anti-Catholic bigotry runs pretty deep, but you might want to do at least some research before writing complete nonsense.

If you want to be taken seriously, stop assuming that everyone who thinks your religious beliefs are BS is a bigot. I think you have every right to freedom of religion, and I recognize the many, many positive things that the Catholic Church has done and continues to do. You will never hear me bash on Catholic homeless shelters, Catholic schools, or the role of reason in the Catholic religion.

But the fact remains, the secular, feminist society that we have built in 21st Century America is simply a better society to live than the societies that have obeyed Catholic morality over the years. And the reason is because we have progressed past the world of almost 2,000 years ago in which people who had no idea how things would work thousands of years later authored religious texts that seemed to deal with the problems and questions that they were concerned with at the time.

Saying that is not anti-Catholic bigotry.

I would say one more thing about that charge. The VAST majority of American Catholics want no part of the views of the conservative minority that still believes in all the doctrines that Rome espouses. So the real anti-Catholic bigots, by your standards, are the conservative Catholics themselves, because they have the temerity to criticize the beliefs of the millions of American Catholics who disagree with them.

It doesn't matter what they [a majority of women in America] think." This from the self-proclaimed defender of gender equality. Priceless!

It doesn't matter because no woman has the right to cut off ANOTHER woman's right. If your wife wants to take the risk that pregnancy might derail her medical practice, that is her right. But she has no right to derail any OTHER woman's practice.

As I said, WOMEN defend female genital mutilation in Africa. That doesn't make the defense of that barbaric practice feminist. It just means that to be a feminist is to be concerned with the RIGHTS of women, whether or not particular women want those rights.

Let me say one more thing about this charge of anti-Catholic bigotry. Prejudice against people of particular religions is a real issue, and anti-Catholic bigotry has a sorry history. People lost jobs, were attacked by mobs, were unjustly convicted, etc., because they were Catholic. Obviously, I have done none of those things to any Catholics-- the charge against me is rather that because I criticize the Catholic Church and the doctrines that very conservative portions of the Church (though not the vast majority of American believers) espouse, that is anti-Catholic.

I think this cheapens the reality of anti-Catholicism. This is Bill Donohue style criticism, and it is a defensive mechanism trotted out by right wing Catholics who don't like seeing their ideas challenged. And I think it is insulting to those people who have lost their jobs or suffered violence because of their Catholic faith. You should cut it out for them, even if you don't do it for me.

But further, I think that Catholics-- or any religious people-- who enter the world of ideas and politics and argue that their doctrines should be enforced by the state at gunpoint expose themselves to valid criticism as to the source of their belief. Your free exercise of religion extends only as long as you don't try to impose it on anyone else-- including any of its doctrines.

So if Catholics want to hold a personal pro-life view, and not have any abortions, that is their right, and I respect that-- even though I think it is a stupid position. People do lots of things that I think are stupid, or superstitious, or have no basis in rational thought. People change the number of floors in skyskrapers from "13" to "14". People carry rabbit's feet. People don't open their Christmas presents until December 25.

More substantively, people adhere to moral principles that I don't think have anything to do with morality. Observant Jews keep kosher. Mormons wear temple garments. Muslims travel to Mecca. None of those things are things that I believe are necessary or sufficient to living a good life. But they have every right to do them, and what they do is their business, not mine.

Similarly, a devout conservative Catholic who wants to forego enjoyable sexual activities, abstain from contraception, and carry any fetus to term is well within her rights to do so. I don't think any of this has anything to do with getting to heaven, if there is one, and I certainly don't think doing any of this makes you any more virtuous. But if you want to live that way, that's fine with me.

However, the moment you start coming after someone else's right to have an abortion, trying to use the government to stop it, the basis for your belief that life begins at conception becomes fair game. And not only does that mean that the proclaimed basis is fair game (i.e., the stupid claim that a zygote has the same rights as a born human person), but also any other information about your religion that might cast doubt on the proclaimed reasons and suggest that there is, for instance, animus towards women who don't conform to Catholic sexual morality motivating your opposition to abortion. Further, the history of your Church's position on female sexuality, and its advocacy of gender inequality, patriarchy, and male supremacy also becomes an issue.

None of this is anti-Catholic bigotry. Rather, it is the give and take of political debate. Just as when we debate the issue of school vouchers, it is legitimate for conservatives to ask about the motives of teacher's unions bankrolling the opposition and whether the history of such unions suggests that they are an obstacle to real school reform.

If you don't want Catholicism injected into the political debate, subjected to criticism and, yes, ridicule, just like any other ideology or organization that proposes restricting the legal rights of others, there is a simple remedy, which is to stop trying to impose Catholic beliefs on people who think they are BS. Teach your children that abortion is wrong. Teach your congregations that. Advocate all you want that people, as a personal matter, should not have abortions because they are immoral. But stop there. Stay away from the law. Because when you try to put the law in the service of your religious belief, your religious belief becomes nothing more than a motivating political ideology, not exempt from criticism, ridicule, or any of the other painful truths of political debate.

The bottom line is Harry Truman's-- if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And rest assured that if there is ever a resurgence of ACTUAL anti-Catholic bias, with people being attacked because of their religious BELIEFS rather than any attempt to impose those on nonbelievers, I will stand right there with you and defend the Catholic Church and its adherents' right to equal and fair treatment, and stand against the real anti-Catholic bigots.

Dilan,

Everything you've said so far is so absurd I don't know how to refute it. Where to start?

Your crowing that 'Your God is dead'...please. Honestly, Dilan, your rhetoric combines the worst of capitalism with the worst of Bolshevism....I hesitate to say Marxism, since I don't think that Marx at his most crude and vulgar would use rhetoric as vulgar as yours. God is alive and well, Dilan. The fact that modern people may not buy the ideas that sleeping with your college girlfriend or using birth control or whatever is wrong, doesn't mean that they accept your totally absurd, sterile and unnatural secularized utopia where the Hindu sacred cows are turned over to the butcher in the name of hygiene, where sensible advertising executive women deal with the results of a one-night fling with a trip to the abortionist, where the goal is to accumulate as many toys and orgasms (thanks, Marquis) as possible, and where it's considered better to be a high powered Fortune 500 executive than a farmer, a fisherwoman, a social worker, a teacher or a mother.

I don't want to recreate the Middle Ages any more than I want to vituperate them. I would like to create the society of the future that integrates whatever was good of the Middle Ages (and there was a hell of a lot), with whatever is good of today, and probably with some entirely new features of its own. But certainly I wouldn't cite 21st century America as my standard of any absolute 'Good'. Who was it who said that in modern America the economy runs on greed, the popular culture on lust, and the foreign policy on pride. Read Simone Weil, Dilan.

In your ideal society, Dilan, what do people live for? What gives meaning to their lives? It can't be just toys, titles, and orgasms. Your worldview can't possibly be as shallow as it sounds.

lastly, it's funny that you would bring up clitoridectomy and compare it to us trying to save the lives of babies. You guys are the ones who, just like the Female Genital Mutilators, want to use modern technology to unnaturally commit acts of violence involving women's reproductive organs and reshape them according to the will of [African patriarchy/American capitalism/whatever.]

In your ideal society, Dilan, what do people live for? What gives meaning to their lives?

What, exactly, is this concept of "meaning" that you are speaking of? We are multi-celled organisms that evolved because we had traits that advantaged us in producing offspring. We have a long enough lifespan to reproduce and then we die, and we are intelligent beings who can organize societies, cooperate for mutual benefit, and produce more than we consume so that the next generation can live better than we do. And over time, our intelligence allows our societies to evolve to, from intolerant religiously based societies that distrusted knowledge and held onto backward traditions to tolerant societies that value freedom and individual choice.

Is that not meaning enough for you? Why do you have to assume you are so special, that God, with a universe to run and stars and galaxies to form and laws of physics to enforce, would give a crap about a pipsqueak on an obscure planet orbiting an obscure star on one of the spiral arms of a nondiscript galaxy? Why do you assume that if there is a God, you are any more important to her than a monkey, a dog, a tree, or a bacterium, much less the laws of the universe, the operations of black holes, or the space-time continuum?

If you seek meaning, look around you. Look at the natural world we live in. Look at the beautiful cities and human institutions we built. Look at the justice in the laws we have written.

If you look at these things, and you still don't think you have found meaning, then I'm sorry, there's no conceivable God that can help you on that one.

Eh, let's just develop medicine enough to the point where we can take the zygotes/embryos/whatever from women and stuff 'em in the bellies of pro-life men and women.

You think it's a life, you carry it to term. End of story.

And commentary about how women who have abortions don't know how bad it is for them "spiritually" is just smug, holier-than-thou prattling.

So the real anti-Catholic bigots, by your standards, are the conservative Catholics themselves, because they have the temerity to criticize the beliefs of the millions of American Catholics who disagree with them.

Religion is not a democracy. Most important things aren't, actually. Part of the problem talking to Dilan is that he hasn't a religious or philosophical bone in his body.

Dilan -- I don't think you're a bigot because you disagree with Church teachings, or my politics, and I don't think I've called you one for that. And yes, you're not a bigot in the sense of the Know Nothings, or the like. You're a bigot in a narrower, less unpleasant sense, to be sure, but in my book it is bigotry -- venial rather than mortal, I'd say, but bigotry, that distorts your emotions and lets you pass judgments on people due to their group membership. The two points are:

1) An enjoyment of collective punishment of people of a group you dislike -- the "zero sympathy" remark about the draconian (and in many cases, completely pointless) policies some parishes are taking with respect to child abuse struck me as animated either by a surprising general callousness (you just don't give a crap about people being hurt, if the hurt is a "reasonable" response to something) or a particular "serves 'em right for being Catholic" attitude, at heart, since decent people have sympathy for people when they have problems that aren't directly their fault, even if the problems are caused by "related" people's errors. I charitably assumed it was the latter, since the first is a more general thing, while the second is not uncommon -- I confess to it myself, on occasion, with adherents of ideas I particularly dislike.

You also take a view that I find bigoted, which is not only to disagree with policies that conservative Christians put forth, but always insult their motives and to continually argue that certain policies are ruled out as being "valid" options (even if wrong ones, in your opinion) because of who they are supported by. You NEVER admit that there could be genuine concern about the unborn, as far as I can see, don't even seem to be able to IMAGINE genuine hatred of abortion as a killing. You ALWAYS assume that it's about keeping women down. That's bigoted -- I don't accuse most abortion supporters of being all about abortion as a handy birth control in the pursuit of amoral hedonism, but I do accuse you of it, because you admit it's a primary motive. Moreover, without a more complex theory of democracy than you have, ruling out religious metaphysical motivations for policy preferences while allowing secular/scientific/ideological ones is a tactic of a bigot. You don't think it's horrible that Jim Wallis wants a bigger welfare state because of his Christian commitment to doing to the least of these. You're bigoted against _conservative_ religion, in that you think _it, and it alone_ is an invalid motivation for policy preference, but don't extend this invalidation to anyone else.

2) Finally, and most grating to me, you have a disdain for those who don't maximize choice and profit and love-free-orgasm the way you think is best. You openly look down on women (and men) who give up economic/societal productivity (and "pleasure," bizarrely, though I fail to see how you even gain any selfish benefit from that) for stupid reasons such as a love of children or God. That's "bigoted" in the narrower sense, like the smug man in a tie and suit who knows he's truly "better" than his car mechanic because he has a degree from Harvard, makes a load of money, and has "read all of F. Scott Fitzgerald's books" as Dylan put it.

I may be a reactionary crank, but I don't think I'm more "worthwhile" or "actualized" as a person than my waitress, or the illegal immigrant who hangs out by the U-Haul center waiting for work. As far as I can tell, you think that _productivity)_ is a very valid measure of _human worth_, about the only one (other than perhaps # of orgasms per year or something) there is, really. Not even intelligence, though I read between the lines that you probably think intelligence is also a very major way to evaluate the worth of human beings, and that women who raise children instead of being corporate whores are probably just stupid. I find that bigoted, yes. Not anti-Catholic, particularly, but bigoted.

If you look at these things, and you still don't think you have found meaning, then I'm sorry, there's no conceivable God that can help you on that one.

Ok, Dilan's not a heartless jerk. He's partly a fuzzy-minded "look at the pretty rainbows, that's meaning enough for me" guy.

I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to see "meaning" in nature who isn't (A) a heavy-duty working scientist or (B) a real wilderness type. Bigoted of me (I'll admit it) but the rest of the time it seems like yuppies going on about their "landscaping."

"serves 'em right for being Catholic" attitude, at heart, since decent people have sympathy for people when they have problems that aren't directly their fault

I think that to the extent that Catholics let their religious leaders off the hook, they are partly responsible. Actually, the Boston laity was pretty good on this-- they raised hell and got Cardinal Law out of there. In contrast, Mahony is still here in LA because the laity didn't care.

I don't think that just because the Catholic Church preaches salvation, it absolves its members from holding the hierarchy accountable for its actions.

But, to be clear, that really wasn't the point of my "zero sympathy" remark. What I had zero sympathy for was the COMPLAINT THAT NOW THEY HAVE TO TAKE ALL THESE PRECAUTIONS. Of course they have to take all these precautions. They blew it! And if you don't like the precautions, there are plenty of non-Catholic places to send your kids where they don't have to take the precautions, because those places don't have the recent history the Church does on this issue.

So it really didn't have anything to do with religion at all. I would have said the same thing about a secular institution that had a history of child molestation.

You also take a view that I find bigoted, which is not only to disagree with policies that conservative Christians put forth, but always insult their motives and to continually argue that certain policies are ruled out as being "valid" options (even if wrong ones, in your opinion) because of who they are supported by.

Marquis, I think Christianity-- and the other great monotheistic religions-- is obviously idiotic. The idea that people thousands of years ago who had no idea about the basic workings of the universe and had no idea how societies would change with technology and industrialization and medical progress and who lived very different lives that we do in very different societies with very differnt priorities would write books that should bind our lives and supersede our own powers of reason and analysis when applied to our own contemporary problems and based on our own superior knowledge is ridiculous.

I also think the idea that if there is a God (a matter I take no position on), the idea that of all the things in the universe that God would be compared about, all the galaxies that cover the size of quadrillions of solar systems, which themseves are so big that we cannot fathom the idea that a manned spacecraft could travel across one, all the intricate strings and quantum mechanics and relationships between space and time that govern our physical laws-- that despite all that, the thing that God is really concerned about is a tiny group of primates living on an obscure planet in a solar system on an arm of an obscure galaxy is a testament to the fact that human egos far exceed our intelligence.

And then, if God really is concerned about us as opposed to the big issues in the universe, we are to believe that what she is really concerned about is that we don't put a penis in a vagina except in very specific circumstances? Come on, this is all complete bunk!

We are evolutionarily programmed to believe all this stuff. It gives us an advantage in natural selection. And, since people fear death, and there's no apparent cost to belief, people who know better nonetheless espouse it as an insurance policy. Pascal's wager is alive and well.

Why do I mention all this? Because this is why I don't think it is legitimate for religious conservatives to start using the government to force the rest of us to live by their God's rules. Your right to believe in transparently untrue things stops when it begins trying to restrict my liberty to disregard such things.

Now, apparently, under your standards, that makes me an anti-Catholic bigot. But it doesn't at all. First of all, where am I singling out Catholicism? I object to Muslims imposing Sharia, I object to Hindus filling up the streets of cities with sacred cows, I object to Orthodox Jews insisting that the stores be closed on the Shabbat, etc.

Second, I don't support any effort to prevent practicing conservative Catholics from being who they are. Just because conservative Catholics want to force me to live my life by their rules doesn't mean I want to return the favor. If people want to be religious, that's their business. The government should stay out of the way.

You NEVER admit that there could be genuine concern about the unborn, as far as I can see, don't even seem to be able to IMAGINE genuine hatred of abortion as a killing.

That's not quite true. First, you need to separate various types of abortion. I think that it is quite rational for someone to view a ninth month partial birth abortion as akin to infanticide. The problem is pro-lifers refuse to make distinctions, because they want to stop women from aborting even a zygote or a blastocyst. (And that, by the way, is one of the reasons I question pro-lifers' motives, because there clearly ARE distinctions, but if the actual motive is to enforce sex and gender roles, those distinctions go away.)

Second, even among people who think that life begins at conception, I think there are some people who are simply believers that abortion is murder and who have no broader agenda. But you know what? The way you tell this is by looking at how they feel about feminism, sex and gender, etc.

And that gets to my problem with you and most conservative Christian pro-lifers (and note, it ain't just Catholics; many evangelicals are like this too). The fact is, you can't bring yourself to admit this, but most of the pro-life movement IS comprised of religious people who don't approve of the sexual revolution and who think women who behave in "immoral" fashion should face the threat of having a baby. If you don't believe me, check out the surveys in Kristen Luker's classic "Abortion And the Politics of Motherhood".

In other words, I refuse to separate it and concede an honest belief that life begins at conception because I don't see the evidence that any significant number of people believe that who do not also believe that the changes in female sexuality in the 1960's were a very bad thing.

Indeed, it goes farther than that. Whenever I engage pro-lifers about this issue, it seems like we eventually get to the point where they start arguing how abortions are really bad for women, that they don't think women who have abortions know what they are doing, that the society that we live in that allows women to be as career-focused as men are is really bad for women, that the vision of female sexuality that allows women to pursue hedonistic pleasures is bad for them, etc.

In other words, there is a fundamental intolerance of women who pursue the same things that men take for granted.

Look, Marquis, I am sure that in pro-lifers' own minds, they tell themselves that these issues are completely separate. But I don't think they are being honest with themselves here. The same way that pro-choicers probably don't pay a lot of attention to the moral status of the fetus (something that pro-lifers have pointed out to me that I will concede is at least sometimes true), pro-lifers don't seem to realize that whether you think that "life begins at conception" really is a compelling argument actually depends a heck of a lot about what you think about sexually active women and their reasons for not wanting to procreate, and whether those reasons are compelling or not. And that gets back to the worldview about sex and gender that Ms. Luker reports most pro-lifers share.

You openly look down on women (and men) who give up economic/societal productivity (and "pleasure," bizarrely, though I fail to see how you even gain any selfish benefit from that) for stupid reasons such as a love of children or God.

I don't think this is a fair criticism. I definitely think that modes of living that we have discovered post-feminism are superior to traditional modes. But I also am a firm believer in choice-- and that includes that nobody should be stigmatized for a choice that they make. In other words, when I talk about actualizing people's potential, I am talking about the bias that POLICYMAKING should take, because that is the route to a prosperous society.

But any INDIVIDUAL who wants to take a different path is entitled to do so, and while I may think that is the WRONG path, I don't think that anyone should be stigmatized or discriminated against or made fun of simply for taking a different path.

Let me make this clear. The reason we are having this discussion is NOT because I am trying to use the government to force Catholic women to become secular promiscuous career women. It's because you, and your Church's hierarchy, are trying to use abortion laws and other such measures to do the opposite.

In my ideal society, every woman who wanted to stay at home and care for the kids and could afford to do so would have that right. There would be no stigmitization, and no bigotry.

In contrast, I would hate to see what your ideal society would do to the lives of dissenters.

In other words, there is a fundamental intolerance of women who pursue the same things that men take for granted.

That the worst sort of men take for granted, that is.

Dilan, I don't think you want to prevent anyone from staying at home, but the tone of your comments about those who do seems to actively disparage the intelligence, "actualization" (actualization to what end? making IBM's profits slightly higher?) and so forth of those who make certain choices. That's not politically oppressive, I know -- but (in my book) it's _bigoted_. It's "ok" -- most of us are bigots in this sense in some way or other. All things equal, I assume people who prefer landscaped "pretty" suburbs to wilderness are nitwits.

Note that the coercive power I want to use is pretty limited. I think X is _killing_ a human being. There are a lot of legal and fairly effective birth control methods around. I wish to prohibit X, on the grounds that X is, you know, killing. I have no interest in legal band on contraception, and I think anyone who believes that even a national ban on abortion would restore earlier sex roles and sexual morals is a nutcase.

Moreover, so long as your argument is "this is a bad policy, and we shouldn't ban abortion" I have no problem with _that_. I think you're wrong, but that's not bigoted. It's disagreement. It is when you take the step to "you think X is killing BECAUSE of your religious beliefs, and THEREFORE you should NOT MAKE YOUR POLICY ARGUMENT AT ALL" that I think you step into bigotry. It's never, also, clear to me if some secularists just think "that's a bad 'form' of argument, and they should be more polite or better reasoners" or if it's closer to "had I the power, I would PROHIBIT policies based (in, say, the majority of supporters) on religious beliefs from being enacted, period." You may be just the first, but I certainly hear more than a bit of the latter from Hitchens and some secularists.

In contrast, I would hate to see what your ideal society would do to the lives of dissenters.

The state? Eh, probably not much of anything if they didn't want to get an abortion, sell pornography or a rather small list of other things. You could smoke pot in my ideal society, without much problem other than those generally associated with smoking (or if you get high enough that you fail in other ways), for example.

I am a conservative. Enforcing conservatism via the state, other than a small number of requirements for public order, requires too much dangerous machinery, and isn't the point, anyway.

It's never, also, clear to me if some secularists just think "that's a bad 'form' of argument, and they should be more polite or better reasoners" or if it's closer to "had I the power, I would PROHIBIT policies based (in, say, the majority of supporters) on religious beliefs from being enacted, period."

You have the First Amendment right to make political appeals based on religious doctrine. I don't think that the dictates of your religion are a proper ground to compel me to do anything, and I will exercise my First Amendment right to criticize you for making such appeals, but you have the right to do it.

I am not aware of too many secularists who have such disdain for the First Amendment that they would try to use government power to stop people from making religious appeals. Indeed, I think a lot of religious conservatives perceive secularists as opposing their First Amendment rights, when they don't.

Eh, probably not much of anything if they didn't want to get an abortion, sell pornography or a rather small list of other things.

1. "Pornography" is an elastic term. I think that adult pornography is protected by the First Amendment. But I can see the argument that some of the extreme stuff could be restricted without doing very much harm to society. I don't know to what extent you know about what goes on in porn, but there has been a tendency for the product to evolve from the simple depictions of intercourse in the 1970's to very disturbing depictions of extreme degredation of women now.

However, I don't trust religious conservatives to stop at the extreme stuff. Religious conservatives have a 15 century record of regulating public decency issues, and their decisions as to what books and movies to censor have not been very judicious.

Also, porn, like abortion, gets to the sort of lifestyle issues that conservative Christians are intolerant of. Many couples, for instance, use porn as a part of their sex lives. Many males, I don't have to tell you, use it as a masterbatory tool. A lot of conservative Christians probably believe that it is wrong for a couple to watch another couple having sex-- even for the purpose of learning better sexual technique! And most of them probably believe that masterbation for personal pleasure is wrong.

So when you bring up porn, you get to exactly the sorts of concerns that I have about the religious right. You don't have to purchase porn if you don't want to. But why should you be able to impose your beliefs on couples or men (or women, for that matter) who have different sexual practices than you do?

2. You mention a "small" list of other things. Doesn't it depend on what's on that list?

3. You shouldn't trust OTHER religious conservatives to stop where you want to stop. Pot, which you mention, is one nice example, because many conservatives associate it with 1960's culture and want to stamp it out for that reason alone. But other members of your political movement have supported such things as sodomy laws, bans on contraception, laws requiring compelled religious observance (say, REQUIRING schoolchildren to acknowledge the existence of God every day), etc.

And you should understand that this frames why people of my persuasion don't think that government should get into the business of enforcing religious beliefs. Any particular religious believer might say "it's just abortion, where there is a life at stake". But in many states and localities, where more conservative Christians have control, it may not stop there, and it could lead to all sorts of much more intrusive regulations.

I have a very nice example-- in 2 states, vibrators are now illegal. I am almost certain, from what you have said here, that you wouldn't favor such a law. Am I right? But in a couple of states, just recently, the religious right has been able to obtain legislative majorities to pass such a laws.

You should fear this, Marquis, because once you start the train rolling, it may not stop where you want it to stop, and it may end up crushing far more liberties than you are comfortable restricting.

Indeed, I think a lot of religious conservatives perceive secularists as opposing their First Amendment rights, when they don't.

Fair enough -- though comments like Dawkins' where he says that religious training for children is "child abuse" don't do secularists any favor.

Dilan -- of course. I just don't think that going too far in restriction is a big danger in the USA right now. It's (remotely) possible that (the internet, which raises technical issues, aside), America might ban "Anal Ravagers 14" at some point, with different First Amendment interpretation. And even a lot of softcore stuff, very maybe. ULYSSES and LOLITA aren't going anywhere, other than in some small jurisdictions. And, to be honest, I have no problem with more local government banning things that I might not ban myself. "Banned in Boston" sounds about right to me, by and large.

Also, I'll admit that my ideal society wouldn't ban a lot of things because I imagine if you did them and your neighbors found out, they'd make you regret it enough that it wouldn't happen that much. Not really my ideal, I guess, but my ideal that has actual humans and not saints only, anyway.

But Marquis, I am not sure history bears you out. In Canada, for instance, a modern antipornography law (supported by naive feminists, in fact!) was passed, and guess who they went after with it? That's right, lesbian bookstores selling sex manuals!

The reason is that in order to pass a meaningful antipornography law, you have to be pretty broad and pretty vague, and that gives whoever is in power the ability to go after whatever it is they don't like.

And as for banned in Boston, that concession makes your argument entirely symbolic, because, as you point out, the Internet permits national distribution anyway. Banned in Boston meant something when Boston could really enforce its ban. It doesn't now. So all you end up with is a law that may express some community's narrow "moral sense" but doesn't actually stop anyone from corrupting their morals. I can't believe that this would put you anywhere close to your goal in terms of changing or enforcing societal standards of decency.

Dilan,

I guess I actually have to admit: I'm callous. If the law ends up being a problem for lesbian sex manuals, or most straight ones for that matter, that's not something I care about as much as I do the bad effects of a porn-washed culture.

I have probably understated the degree to which I'd be ok with local (or, with enough support, non-local) bans on things -- no racy ads, no alluring Cosmo covers, Maxim magazine forbidden -- this is all fine with me. Unlikely, I think, but fine.

Re: Because this is why I don't think it is legitimate for religious conservatives to start using the government to force the rest of us to live by their God's rules. Your right to believe in transparently untrue things stops when it begins trying to restrict my liberty to disregard such things.

Dilan, just how far does that liberty extend? Are you trying to say that you should be free to do anything whatsoever you please no matter what anyone else thinks of it? I'm as suspicious of would-be theocrats as anyone, but I also see no way to eliminate the simple fact that our laws are ultimately based on people's opinions of what is right and what is wrong, and the only other alternative is anarchy-- everyone for himself.
Here's a historical example that ought trouble you. In WWII the Nazis ordered Bulgaria (an ally not a subject country) to round up its Jews and ship them to the camps. When the Bulgarian government began dutifully to obey, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church immediately and very publicly condmened the move and stirred up such enormous public opposition to it that the government was forced to back down and Bulgaria came through the war with its Jewish population intact. All of us would that's good-- but by your standard above what the Church did was illegitimate and it should have let the Jews go to the camps. How do you resolve this paradox? By saying, "The Church was right in that instance, but only because I agree with it"? If that sort of pure subjectivism is the only basis for your ethic then are you not as great a tyrant as you accuse others of being, because it all begins and ends with you and no one else has a voice?

Here's a historical example that ought trouble you. In WWII the Nazis ordered Bulgaria (an ally not a subject country) to round up its Jews and ship them to the camps. When the Bulgarian government began dutifully to obey, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church immediately and very publicly condmened the move and stirred up such enormous public opposition to it that the government was forced to back down and Bulgaria came through the war with its Jewish population intact. All of us would that's good-- but by your standard above what the Church did was illegitimate and it should have let the Jews go to the camps. How do you resolve this paradox? By saying, "The Church was right in that instance, but only because I agree with it"?

Absolutely. You don't need religious doctrine at all to point out that rounding up Jews and sending them to death camps is wrong.

I might add something else-- other branches of the Catholic Church had altogether different-- and more shameful-- reactions to the Holocaust. And there is a long history of Catholic anti-Semitism, including teaching that the Jews killed Christ and the inclusion of a prayer that the Jews be converted in the tridentine Mass. Many Catholic officials collaborated in various ways in the Holocaust. Historically, Jews were tried by Catholic hiearchies and burned at the stake.

The point is, the reason those Catholics in Bulgaria did the right thing is not because of their Catholic teachings, but because they were able to recognize the secular principle that sending people to their deaths because of their religion or ethnicity is wrong. Many other Catholics, with the same background of religious faith, have come to the conclusion that in fact it is right.

Look, the restriction to secular arguments DOES NOT mean that the right wing has no arguments against abortion. There are secularists who oppose abortion. It DOES recognize, however, that nobody has any right to force a nonbeliever to conform to the alleged dicates of their God. And conservative Christians want to force us to do exactly that and therefore will not accept that principle.

Dilan,

Christian anti-Judaism has little to do with the Nazi anti-Semitism. The medieval Christian position on Jews was that they ought to be converted, and that the loss of their homeland was fitting punishment for having denied Christ, not that they ought to be killed on account of their race. Converting to Christianity did nothing to save a Jewish victim of the Nazis.

On the subject of World War II, the best exemplar of a secular fascist regime was Germany, and the best example of a Christian 'fascist' regime was Spain. I would note that in spite of Franco's ostentatiously anti-Jewish rhetoric, he did exactly nothing to cooperate with the Holocaust (unlike the largely secular nations of France and the Netherlands). A Jewish person was substantially safer under the Catholic "fascism" of Spain than under the secular fascism of Germany or Italy (or for that matter, in the secular occupation regimes in France and Holland). I would say actually that the Catholic nature of the Falangista regime in Spain probably did something to moderate some of its worst excesses, certainly as compared with secular far-right regimes like the Nazis.

And of course, in spite of the fact that secular Marxist doctrine was opposed to racial discrimination, the Stalinist regime in Russia had quite a history of anti-Semitism itself. Look at the trial of Zinoviev and Kamenev and the names that they were called.

And of course there was a prayer that Jews be converted, and I see no reason why there shouldn't have been. It is a basic doctrine of Christianity that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between the Father and man, therefore it is fitting that all men be taught the gospel, that includes Jews as much as Hindus, Buddhists, whoever else. You might disagree with that doctrine, but it isn't anti-Semitic.

Isn't it bad enough that the Church was the patron of Franco, you don't have to go and make absurd and historically false claims that it was also the patron of Hitler, which it clearly wasn't. Making those claims just makes your argument sound fooish.

Marquis,

I don't think that mildly revealing movie posters or whatever (or for that matter people wearing somewhat revealing clothing in public) is necessarily morally wrong. I don't think it's constitutionally protected, of course, and if you want to pass such a law and have the votes, there's nothing i can do to stop you. But i would probably prefer a more liberal censorship regime than you.

I mean, banning Maxim and Cosmo sounds fine, I suppose....how far would you want to go, though? without getting into too much details, how many inches above the knee or below the collar is permissible in your society? i have a feeling that these are the kind of details that might be hard to work out.

Also, would you be fine with banning political speech, like the collected works of Marx and Engels (or for that matter, Bakunin, or Maurras)? I can't join you there.

On the subject of World War II, the best exemplar of a secular fascist regime was Germany, and the best example of a Christian 'fascist' regime was Spain. I would note that in spite of Franco's ostentatiously anti-Jewish rhetoric, he did exactly nothing to cooperate with the Holocaust (unlike the largely secular nations of France and the Netherlands). A Jewish person was substantially safer under the Catholic "fascism" of Spain than under the secular fascism of Germany or Italy (or for that matter, in the secular occupation regimes in France and Holland). I would say actually that the Catholic nature of the Falangista regime in Spain probably did something to moderate some of its worst excesses, certainly as compared with secular far-right regimes like the Nazis.

Hector, I've been to Spain. I've spoken to Spaniards who lived under Franco's horrible regime. You need to take "fascism" out of the scare quotes. It was fascism. If you want to argue it wasn't as bad a the Third Reich or Il Duce, that's your prerogative, but it was bad enough.

More generally, Hector, you shouldn't try and defend the Catholic Church's anti-semitism. First, you don't even answer the point that many Catholic officials had direct involvement in the Holocaust. You also ignore that Jews were executed for heresy and blasphemy by the Church and Church-run governments.

More generally, though, the accusation that the Jews killed Christ was classic anti-Semitism, blaming the group for something that their ancestors allegedly did (and actally did not do-- if Jesus even existed, the Romans crucified him). And the prayer to convert the Jews is classic religious intolerance-- obviously, the Church could not accept that some intelligent people might have different religious beliefs. And while that may have been the belief about all religions, the Catholics singled out Jews for the tridentine Mass prayer. Treating the Jews as a special case, again, is anti-Semitism.

The rest of your post is a screed about all the atheists and agnostics and secular people who were anti-Semitic. True enough, but it doesn't absolve any of the anti-Semitism that I catalog in my comment.

More generally, Hector, you shouldn't try and defend the Catholic Church's anti-semitism. First, you don't even answer the point that many Catholic officials had direct involvement in the Holocaust. You also ignore that Jews were executed for heresy and blasphemy by the Church and Church-run governments.

More generally, though, the accusation that the Jews killed Christ was classic anti-Semitism, blaming the group for something that their ancestors allegedly did (and actally did not do-- if Jesus even existed, the Romans crucified him). And the prayer to convert the Jews is classic religious intolerance-- obviously, the Church could not accept that some intelligent people might have different religious beliefs. And while that may have been the belief about all religions, the Catholics singled out Jews for the tridentine Mass prayer. Treating the Jews as a special case, again, is anti-Semitism.

The rest of your post is a screed about all the atheists and agnostics and secular people who were anti-Semitic. True enough, but it doesn't absolve any of the anti-Semitism that I catalog in my comment.

More generally, Hector, you shouldn't try and defend the Catholic Church's anti-semitism. First, you don't even answer the point that many Catholic officials had direct involvement in the Holocaust. You also ignore that Jews were executed for heresy and blasphemy by the Church and Church-run governments.

More generally, though, the accusation that the Jews killed Christ was classic anti-Semitism, blaming the group for something that their ancestors allegedly did (and actally did not do-- if Jesus even existed, the Romans crucified him). And the prayer to convert the Jews is classic religious intolerance-- obviously, the Church could not accept that some intelligent people might have different religious beliefs. And while that may have been the belief about all religions, the Catholics singled out Jews for the tridentine Mass prayer. Treating the Jews as a special case, again, is anti-Semitism.

The rest of your post is a screed about all the atheists and agnostics and secular people who were anti-Semitic. True enough, but it doesn't absolve any of the anti-Semitism that I catalog in my comment.

Dilan,

I'm not interested in defending Franco's regime. It was horrible enough (200,000 executions after the war was over) and I would probably argue with any of the Catholic conservatives here (of which i am neither one) about whether he was a good guy or not. The fact remains however that in spite of his contempt and dislike for the Jews, he did not cooperate with the Nazis in killing them, and any Jewish person who made it over the Pyrenees was generally safe. I put 'fascism' in scare quotes because I think that the term is really useless as a signifier, in much the same way as 'communist' has become pretty useless. The regimes of say, Stalin and Daniel Ortega had so little in common that it is utterly absurd, except for abusive purposes to group them together. Similarly with, say, the regimes of Hitler and Mussolini on the one hand, and Franco and Peron on the other.

More to the point, in general American discource, fascist has come to connote Nazi. Which ignores the fact that there were 'fascist' regimes during the war which stayed neutral, and were not genocidal, and there were even some 'fascist' regimes (like Dollfuss and Metaxas) which were actively anti-Nazi.

Regarding Christian anti-Semitism,

Of course it's absurd, and abusive, and bigoted to claim that 'the Jews' killed Christ. A people can't be collectively responsible for an act like that and in any case the guilt couldn't be transmitted to their descendents. But the bit about the Romans is just silly. If you accept the Gospels as reliable (no reason why you should, but there is virtually no other detailed record of the life of Jesus that even purports to be historical- I've read some of the apocryphal texts and while they are interesting as theology and mythology, they don't purport to be history in the same way as the Gospels), then Jesus was put to death at the instigation of the Jewish priesthood. SOME Jews were responsible for getting him crucified- obviously not all, but a few. Obviously, this has less than nothing to do with any other Jewish man woman or child.

Jews were obviously not put to death for 'heresy', it's a logical impossibility. A heretic is by definition a Christian who follows an unorthodox interpretation of the faith- if you don't claim to be a Christian, then by definition you can't be a heretic. The record of Christian anti-Semitism is a bad and bloody one, obviously. But the Jews certainly fared better than dissident Christians like the Protestants, Albigensians, Bogomiles, etc. Moreover, it was never the policy of the Church that Jews as a group be killed. Read what Aquinas had to say on the matter.

I have no interest in defending Church policy towards the Jews, but it was bad enough without you having to make up things which weren't true.

SOME Jews were responsible for getting him crucified- obviously not all, but a few.

If it in fact happened, it was the Romans who did it, Hector. They were the judicial authorities. Any role of Jews-- even as portrayed in the Gospels-- is simply one of urging the Romans to do it.

But that was a subsidiary point-- the point was that the Catholics' long-time teaching that "the Jews killed Christ" was anti-Semitic, and it appears you agree.

Jews were obviously not put to death for 'heresy', it's a logical impossibility. A heretic is by definition a Christian who follows an unorthodox interpretation of the faith- if you don't claim to be a Christian, then by definition you can't be a heretic. The record of Christian anti-Semitism is a bad and bloody one, obviously. But the Jews certainly fared better than dissident Christians like the Protestants, Albigensians, Bogomiles, etc. Moreover, it was never the policy of the Church that Jews as a group be killed. Read what Aquinas had to say on the matter.

I didn't say it was the POLICY of the Church. I said that the Church-- which had state power for hundreds of years-- executed Jews under laws that prohibited religious practices other than Catholicism. That is not "made up". That happened. A number of times.

In any event, again, you seem to agree that Catholic anti-Semitism was a real problem.

Dilan,

Well, no, not necessarily. I agree that anti-Semitism was a problem , a crime and an atrocity, but I suspect that some of the specifics of what you see as 'anti-semitism', I would probably see as the justified efforts of Christian governments to promote Christian values. We can both agree that medieval governments murdering Jews for no reason, or discriminating against them on the basis of their race, was an atrocity. But we would probably disagree on whether, say, theological criticism of Judaism as a religion, or the moral criticism of medieval Jewish moneylenders, etc. was anti-semitism or rather the justified promotion of Christian values.

Christianity and Judaism are two religions that are essentially very different, they largely defined themselves against each other from the beginning, and so it's only to be expected that Christianity would be, at least on a theological level, highly critical and hostile towards Jewish beliefs. For example, Christianity prizes faith over reason, in general, (although it gives reason a high place as well), while at least some branches of Judaism do the opposite. That does not make Christianity essentially 'anti-semitic', any more than it makes Buddhism 'anti-Hindu'.

And no, Dilan, the Jewish authorities were in fact responsible for killing Christ. Not every Jew, not more than a small minority of Jews back then, certainly not any Jew today, bears any responsibility for the crime. But the religious authorities at that time and in that place were in fact responsible for the crucifixion. In the same way that the ruling groups in the USA, a hundred years ago, were responsible for killing Native Americans. That doesn't mean that Americans today should be maltreated by other countries out of a misguided sense of revenge, but it does mean that history demands that we acknowledge that the American ruling hierarchy did kill the Native Americans.

The Gospels are very clear that the Romans did not up and decide to kill Jesus, and that Pontius Pilate was very loath to order the killing; there is even an apocryphal legend that Pilate was recalled to Rome after the crucifixion, berated by the Emperor for not standing up to pressure from Caiphas and the others, and was executed for his part in the Crucifixion. The primary person responsible for a crime is the one who orders it, not the one who carries it out.

I feel furthermore that some people throw the term anti-Semitism around very loosely and in inapplicable contexts. Simone Weil, one of the foremost Christian visionaries of last century, was on many occasions violently hostile both to the Jewish religion and to Jewish culture and history. Did that make her anti-Semitic in the sense of hating Jews as an ethnic group? She was Jewish by ethnicity herself, so it would be kind of hard to maintain that she was anti-Semitic. Moreover she starved to death on a hunger strike to protest the Holocaust and Nazism, so it would also be kind of hard to maintain that she did not see the evil of the Holocaust. So what's your answer, Dilan, is someone like that anti-Semitic or not?

Hector, I think you are being ahistorical here. The fact of the matter is that one of the main things that inspired ORDINARY believers to hate Jews, think they were subhuman, try to eradicate them or force them to convert, not associate with them, etc., is precisely that Catholic teaching that the Jews killed Jesus.

It isn't the only cause, of course, but it was certainly A cause. Indeed, I think that if you asked Pope Benedict, who was around at the Second Vatican Council when they finally got rid of it, he would admit that part of the reason that they changed the teaching was because of the Holocaust and a feeling that they didn't want anti-semites in the future to be citing any Catholic doctrines in support of their hateful beliefs, even if one could argue that it was a perversion of the teaching.

In a sense, you have given an explanation of Catholic anti-semitism-- that they were competing religions-- but not an excuse. And this gets to something that I discussed above. I hold religions to the same standard as I hold everyone else. So I don't think, for instance, that people who want to discriminate against gays and lesbians because they think that homosexuality is biblically condemned are any better than people who discriminate against gays and lesbians because they are insecure in their own sexuality. Discrimination is discrimination.

Similarly, it may be that the REASON for historical Catholic anti-semitism is that the two religions were competing, but that's no better justification for hating Jews than if one hated Jews because one thought they were cheap or had ugly noses.