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The GOP, Pro-Lifers and Roe

17 Nov 2007 05:16 pm

Larison waxes indignant:

I understand why pro-life voters typically align with the Republicans. In theory, it makes sense: we pro-lifers vote for you Republicans, and you work to overturn Roe and generally oppose abortion itself (and, by extension, euthanasia and ESCR and so on). It sounds like a fair deal, until you, the pro-lifers, realise that you never really get very much out of it in all these years. But what about getting a majority on the Court, someone will ask. Well, pro-lifers have helped put Republicans in executive power for what will soon be twenty of the last twenty-eight years, during which time these Presidents have nominated seven Supreme Court justices, five of whom are still on the Court today. There has been a Republican-appointed majority on the Court for most of my lifetime, and most of the Republican appointees came in during the Reagan years or later, and yet Roe is realistically farther away than ever from being overturned than it was fifteen years ago. The latest two justices made it clear in their confirmation hearings that they accepted Roe as established precedent–and their nominations are supposed to represent the great clout and triumph of pro-life voters! Someone might point to the various bad choices and disappointments among the nominees in the past (Souter, O’Connor, etc.) and claim that pro-lifers just need to remain patient and gradually build up that anti-Roe majority they have imagined for such a long time.

Given the record of the last three decades, what makes them think that anything will change in the next administration or the one after that? The trouble with pro-life voters is that most routinely vote for the GOP, so the latter have no real incentive to keep them interested or give them anything more than symbolism or limited measures designed to keep them just attached enough to retain their loyalty for another cycle. Someone will say, “Well, that’s politics for you,” but my point would be that pro-life voters need to be much more shrewd in their willingness to withhold support and extract concessions. Yes, this is politics we’re talking about, which is why pro-lifers should play the game a lot better than they have been doing. Those who follow the path of Pat Robertson to pay obeisance to Giuliani are declaring to the party, “Please, exploit us for your own advantage!”

I agree about Robertson and Rudy, but otherwise I think this assessment is far too harsh. Consider what the pro-life movement has been up against over the last thirty years. First, Roe was decided with a 7-2 majority, meaning that opponents needed to flip three justices to overturn it, not just one or two. Second, it took the better part of a decade for the pro-life movement to even get off the ground in any substantial way, and for the evangelical-Catholic alliance on the issue to take shape. Third, elite culture in the United States - the culture of the media, of Manhattan and Washington D.C., and of the law schools that produce most future SCOTUS judges - is unremittingly hostile to pro-lifers. Fourth, Roe has the weight of both stare decisis and public opinion (however misinformed) on its side, which tends to give its defenders the political and legal high ground.

Yet in spite of all these handicaps (and I can think of several others), the alliance between pro-lifers and the GOP pushed Roe to the brink of extinction in the late 1980s. Obviously, the Souter pick was unforgivable, but even so, it took the combination of a shameful-but-effective Democratic smear campaign against Robert Bork and Anthony Kennedy's last-minute change of heart to save Roe from being overturned in 1992. Near-misses aren't the same thing as victories, but it's worth pointing out that from the vantage point of the early 1970s, when the Times famously declared that the Court had "settled" the abortion issue, this was closer to success than anyone would have expected a rag-tag band of religious conservatives to come. And the next Republican President - Bush, that is - looks to have improved on the Reagan-Bush record: This administration has had two SCOTUS vacancies, and filled both with judges who I would deem very likely to overturn Roe, or at least drastically reduce its scope, should the opportunity arise. It's true that if you think, as Larison does, that "Roe is realistically farther away than ever from being overturned," then yes, pro-life support for the GOP has been nothing short of folly. But I think he misjudges Alito and Roberts, and that Roe is closer than ever to being overturned - one vote away to be precise.

(Of course - returning to Daniel's final point, with which I agree - this makes it all the more baffling that the Pat Robertsons of the world have decided that now, of all times, is the moment to decide that abortion should take a back seat not only to fighting Islamists, but to "the control of massive government waste and crushing federal deficits," in Robertson's less-than-immortal words. Or that the National Right to Life Committee, in an effort to stop Robertson's preferred candidate, would decide to throw its weight behind a guy who's running fourth or worse in the early primary states, when there are several candidates with comparable anti-Roe bona fides and better poll numbers.)

Comments (80)

Larison ignores that the Robert's court upheld the federal law against partial birth abortion, much to the pro-choice court members chagrin.

Today's decision is alarming," Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote in dissent. She said the ruling "refuses to take ... seriously" previous Supreme Court decisions on abortion.
Ginsburg said the latest decision "tolerates, indeed applauds, federal intervention to ban nationwide a procedure found necessary and proper in certain cases by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists."

With one more appointee in the Roberts/Alito mold, step by step Roe Wade will be chipped away and become history.

Does Larison really think a Clinton or Obama presidency would in any way favor the pro-life position?

Ross makes several good points, and I am inclined to think that I may have been too negative in my assessment of the results that pro-lifers have achieved. I should have given the Roberts Court credit for upholding the ban, but I am still not fully persuaded that Roberts and Alito are "very likely" to overturn Roe. Now that they're confirmed, I suppose anything's possible, but based on what we know right now I wouldn't assume that it is "very likely."

At his confirmation hearings, Roberts said: "There is nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent, as well as Casey." Now I think Roberts was a reasonably good choice, but I am not at all sure that he will provide pro-lifers with the anti-Roe vote that they are expecting. I understand that Alito did not go so far as to say quite the same thing during his hearings, but he did say: "If 'settled' means that it can't be reexamined, then that's one thing. If 'settled' means that it is a precedent that is entitled to respect . . . then it is a precedent that is protected, entitled to respect
under the doctrine of stare decisis."

Of course I don't think that a Clinton or Obama presidency would do anything to aid the pro-life cause. The question pro-life voters ought to be asking right now is whether they really think that a Giuliani or Romney presidency would be substantially different or better on their issues. So long as pro-lifers feel compelled into backing the GOP out of fear of the alternative, they will not see their agenda advanced nearly as far.

I'd be interested to know how, exactly, the public is misinformed in its endorsement of abortion rights with limitations. Unless misinformed merely means that they don't agree with you.

What was shameful about keeping Bob Bork off of the Supreme Court?

Here's an obstacle the "pro-life" movement faces that Ross will cut his throat before acknowledging - most people know the movement is a crock of cattle-poop. Most of the lifers I know are pro-death penalty, pro-Iraq war, pro-New War On Iran, against universal health care (even for kids) and generally just nasty wingnuts in general.

Here's the deal, folks - if you think blowing away hundreds of thousands of actual people on spec is okay, and you damn well do, forgive if I think you're a frigging moron for worrying about cell collections that look like tadpoles.

As a pro-choicer, I will try to approach this question respectfully and without trying to advance my view of the issue.

I think the pro-lifers' biggest problem is one Larison only implicitly adverts to and one which Ross ignores entirely-- it may be in the Republican Party's interests that Roe never be overturned.

This is just a version of the old "they'd rather have the issue" scenario that is common in politics. In 2000 the "Patient's Bill of Rights" was an issue, and both Gore and Bush endorsed one. Bush won the election, and the Democratic congress decided not to give Bush a bill that he might be able to compromise on and sign, because they thought the issue was a good issue for them and felt it was better to run on it.

Well, so it is with Roe. The Republicans would rather appoint justices who will chip away at Roe without overturning it, because they believe that if Roe is overturned, pro-choice voters who have not historically been single issue voters the way some pro-lifers are will suddenly become single issue voters and will throw out pro-life politicians.

It may be that Robers and Alito are in on this strategy. Note that in the partial birth case, they did NOT join the Scalia/Thomas position that Roe should be overturned. This is in contrast to Rehnquist, who did.

I don't know what pro-lifers should do here. The truth is, I think their movement is probably slowly being supplanted with toughness on terrorism as the big litmus test issue for Republican presidential candidates. The American public is becoming less religious, more tolerant, and more libertarian on sex and gender matters. That's going to hurt pro-lifers in the future, especially if they are associated with other social conservative issues like anti-assisted suicide and anti-gay rights. So I am not sure pro-lifers have many cards to play.

But their complaint that the Party isn't really pushing as hard as they could to end abortion seems to me to be a completely sound one.

"pro-death penalty"

On average a person is, I believe, on death row seven years before they are executed. That might be the lower end in fact. They have appeals in cases of mental disability or evidence. They also have to be accused of a crime in the first place. Since 1930 4,727 people have been executed in the US.

In an average year around 60,000 abortions occur to fetuses who have been in gestation for 16 weeks or more. These fetuses have not been accused of a crime. In almost 70% of cases they are not accused of even endangering their mother's health let alone life. There is no appeals system and ultimately just two people decide their fate.

Still personally I'd prefer the death penalty be limited to murderers who killed 2 or more victims and murderers who raped their victim or victims.

"pro-Iraq war"

Some naively believed that the Iraq war would reduce the killing in Iraq by removing a genocidal dictator. I know because I was such a person.

"pro-New War On Iran,"

I was not then nor am I now for such a thing. The people who are pro-life and willy-nilly support unjust or implausible wars do not have my respect either. (Well I don't respect them as pro-life anyway, they might be okay people otherwise that just have blindspots)

On the main issue I don't think the Republicans have done much for Pro-Life, but Democratic administrations do tend to expand abortion rights even worse. So they've maybe helped keep us from absolutely being the most permissive nation on Earth when it comes to abortion. I think as is we're tied with Japan or the Netherlands or something.

Moe,

I don't much care what 'other pro-lifers' may or may not think. I'm against the Iraq war, against any new war against Iran, and for universal health care. (I am pro-death penalty at least in theory, but many of those opposed to abortion aren't.)I don't think that either war or the death penalty is a good comparison for abortion since the unborn child has not done anything remotely deserving of being killed.

Dilan,

It's been pointed out numerous times that opposition to abortion rights is strongest among the young, especially among young men. This means that you have it precisely backwards. There is not now, nor has there been for a while, majority support in this country for outlawing abortion. But there may be in the future, as today's young people become politicians and regular voters. If America is 'becoming' more pro-choice, then how come the young tend to be pro-life?

Abortion isn't a sex issue nor is it a gender issue- nor is it necessarily even a religious issue. I consider myself moderately liberal in matters of sexual morality, and an upholder of equality of women. I don't believe that expanding 'women's rights' means giving them the freedom to attain wealth and power at the cost of their own spiritual welfare and the lives of their unborn children. There isn't any necessary link between a society's general sexual conservatism and its tolerance of abortion. Latin American countries are moderately liberal on sexual morality and are very strongly against abortion; Japan and India are highly conservative in sexual morality and also have lots and lots of legal abortion.

Hey Hector,
I think I speak for the vast majority of women when I say that we can take care of our own spiritual welfare, thanks. Why don't you step aside and let us handle it ourselves.

Also, I think at all times, in all places, the abortion debate should be phrased strictly in terms of forced pregnancy. How, exactly, do you plan to get me not to have an abortion? Chain me to the bed? Put me in jail? Then please shut the hell up about your respect for "women's rights", as you call them.

But maybe I'm just misinformed. I am just a girl, after all.


Lisa,

I would forbid doctors from performing abortions. I think that women who have abortions are victims more than anything else, to be pitied and not punished. They have been crushed by the false consciousness imposed on them society that tells them that they are worthless, their baby is worthless, so they should just kill it. I think that women who have abortions should be embraced with love and mercy and encouraged to seek spiritual healing. In this regard I think that efforts like 'Project Rachel' are exactly what our society needs more of. The way for us as a society to deal with mothers who abort their children is to smother them with love and encourage them to repent and seek forgiveness.

Actually, Lisa, women are more likely than men (except young men) to be strongly pro-life.

No, I will not let anyone 'handle it for themselves' if that involves the cost of the baby's life and the mother's spiritual welfare. I care deeply for the women who are faced with unwanted pregnancy, and part of that caring is that I am unwilling that a cold-hearted and decadent society should lead the mother into sin and the child into death. I believe that a just society should care for all of women and children and that 'women's rights' cannot possibly be furthered by negating the unique aspect of femininity, the ability to give life. And that violtes women's essential nature.

Thanks, Hector. You have just made my point about the patronizing, ignorant, backward nature of the enforced pregnancy movement better than I ever could.

Still personally I'd prefer the death penalty be limited to murderers who killed 2 or more victims and murderers who raped their victim or victims.

What about people who have had 2 abortions? After all, abortion equals murder. I've seen the bumper stickers. And what about doctors involved with abortion? Are they also murderers or just accessories to murder? How many abortions would nurses have to assist before they too should be eligible for the death penalty? What about miscarriages due to, for instance, reckless driving by the mother? Manslaughter, or negligent homicide? Just curious. Your moral calculus seems so precise that I figure you can just clear all this up for us. Thanks.

Also, I think at all times, in all places, the abortion debate should be phrased strictly in terms of forced pregnancy.

Except in the case of rape/incest, prohibiting abortion is not forced pregnancy. No one is forcing women to get pregnant, but, rather, to live with the choices that the woman has made. For pro-lifers, it is permissible to restrict the woman's "choice" in such a situation because the life of an innocent unborn child at stake. I understand that the position is based on an analysis of spiritual and biological factors that people disagree on, which is that an abortion destroys an innocent human life. I don't expect someone to agree with or believe this statement just because I believe it (although I do believe it is supported by science and increasing knowledge about genetics only bolsters that argument), but the idea that pro-lifers are interested only in restricting women's freedom is ridiculous. For pro-lifers, a women's choice is a significant factor that is nonetheless outweighed by the human life hanging in the balance.

I would disagree that abortion on demand empowers women. I think it sends the message that human life is disposable and that some lives are more valuable than others, which empowers no one but eugenicists, racists, and elitists. In the U.S., at least, I believe it contributes to poverty and single motherhood by sending the message to would-be fathers that an unborn child is disposable, is a decision completely out of the father's hands, and, therefore, is not something that's worth dedicating time, energy, or money too. Ultimately, many women are left with a "choice" between raising a child alone without the means to do so and terminating the pregnancy.

I also believe that abortion on demand creates a situation where society is essentially telling poor women that any children they may have are their own problem and not society's responsibility. Abortion is a way of society abdicating its responsibility to care for the least among us. This is "illiberal" in every sense of the word.

I do think that abortion proponents are generally well-meaning and I do recognize that abortion may empower some women (mainly those who already enjoy significant power). However, on balance, it's neither morally acceptable nor beneficial to women. Honestly, though, I would not want to outlaw abortion unless society also made a concomitant commitment to care for poor children, which, of course, would include health care. Abortion is a problem in and of itself, but it is also symptomatic of a larger problem.

I do agree with Moe in the sense that I don't have much time for folks who are "pro-life" but also advocate executing the mentally retarded or those who were juveniles at the time of their crime, or wars of choice that destroy the lives of civilians. I think the Iraq War is more complicated than that in the sense that different people supported it for different reasons, but I opposed the war. I also strongly oppose torture. That said, I think destroying the unborn and innocent in the name of women's "choice" is worse than torturing terrorists in attempt to gain information to save lives.

No one is forcing women to get pregnant, but, rather, to live with the choices that the woman has made

Which is why the anti-abortion movement so strongly supports access to contraception.

Which is why the anti-abortion movement so strongly supports access to contraception.

Well, if you need to argue that pro-lifers oppose contraception in order to make your point, I think you're overreaching. Certainly lots of folks don't support distributing free condoms at middle schools and the like, but do you hear a lot of calls to make contraception illegal to anyone? Specifically, to tie it back to Ross' original point, Roberts came right out and said he supported Griswold, which held that access to contraception was a fundamental right under the constitution. Not only that, but he said it didn't even matter and he could freely discuss Griswold because, in his view, there was no chance of the court revisiting the issue and overturning it. Alito also came out and clearly supported Griswold as well as Eisenstadt, the case that extended the right to access to contraception to single folks (Griswold dealt explicitly only with married couples). So to the extent that we're talking about access to rather than promotion of contraception, both Alito and Roberts clearly came out on the side that access to contraception is protected by the Constitution.

DMonteith "What about people who have had 2 abortions? After all, abortion equals murder."

TR: No, it doesn't. Murder requires intent and forethought. Abortion is more like manslaughter if you want to compare it to anything. I don't even think that comparison is quite right. For legal purposes it'd probably have to be compared to animal cruelty or self-mutilation. Anyway I didn't even say "two or more manslaughters" gets a person the death penalty. Although possibly if a person is habitually proned to commit manslaughter they should be executed.

Lisa: Also, I think at all times, in all places, the abortion debate should be phrased strictly in terms of forced pregnancy.

TR: Sorry, but you don't get to phrase a debate the way best for you to "win." And I don't think anyone should be bullied by "I'm a woman, so you males shut up" type argument.

Discounting rape or incest the woman is choosing to do a thing that can get her pregnant. If a man drinks large quantities of alcohol and gets drunk am I forcing him to have a bad hangover if I decide against remedying it? If a man shoots heroin am I forcing AIDS on him by not giving him clean needles? It's even further in the case of abortion. You're asking that nine-months of discomfort, because of a chosen act, be seen as greater potential harm than a new human life is a potential good. I've heard this idea before from Pro-Choice people, but it just seems unconvincing to me. Well unless you deem pregnancy itself to be one of the most horrible things that can happen.

If America is 'becoming' more pro-choice, then how come the young tend to be pro-life?

Give them time - a lot of them probably haven't yet been faced with unwanted pregnancies.

Personally, I was "pro-life," until my early twenties when my girlfriend got pregnant. I turned pro-choice right quick, and have been ever since!

Larison is making a joke? Who on earth would vote a party merely based on their position on abortion?

If we are talking about Christian voters - clearly they would first consider the party's position on the death penalty and torture? Jesus was clear that we should not kill and forgive the sinners in case we want to be forgiven ourselves. An adult is definitely alive - whereas it is really not clear if semen transfer after a male orgasm that leads to an embryo can be considered a full life yet?

If anything - these beings are more alive than an embryo.

No real believer in Christ would, or better, could support an organization that kills and tortures adults. Jesus never recommended that one should start lying because somebody has lied to you. He never said that one should start sinning because somebody else has sinned? Christ never preached needless killing because we know of a murderer somewhere? And we do not need God for thinking through why this leads nowhere...?

Revenge, an eye for an eye, etc - this is the devils game?

PS: Why are also so many pro-lifers against condoms? After all, Jesus never said anything about condoms but he was very explicit about forgiveness and needless killings, etc.

I know what party Jesus would fight if he were to stroll along again... those who have corrupted his message for the sake of some misunderstood idea of power?

Actually, even Singer doesn't question the settled biological question as to when life begins. Modern embryology is crystal clear that the joining of sperm and ovum-the Zygote-contains the essentials of life that all of us once began with.

The question is at what stage do we protect life. Singer argues at some point in infancy, orthodox religious people at conception. Traditionally, abortion was regarded as illegal until the Supreme Court in a mistaken fit of judicial supremacy, known as Roe v. Wade, usurped the issue.

The Robert's court with the partial-birth abortion case has begun to move the issue back to the political side where it belongs. The whole issue of the right to life or the right to abort life is a political not a judicial issue, unless one, slave like, wishes to delegate the issue to a group of judicial mandarins.

Re: The question is at what stage do we protect life. Singer argues at some point in infancy, orthodox religious people at conception.

I'm not particularly orthodox, so I would say implantation. But conception seems like a reasonable starting point that we could argue about.

I think it's somewhat silly to quibble about judicial vs. political supremacy when it comes to abortion. The important thing is that abortion be suppressed, not how or who gets to suppress it. If the Supreme Court declared tomorrow that they think that the advance of embryological knowledge since 1972 indicates that the fetus ought to be classified as a person and protected under th 14th Amendment, i would be in favor of it- I don't know about you.

Re: Give them time - a lot of them probably haven't yet been faced with unwanted pregnancies.Personally, I was "pro-life," until my early twenties when my girlfriend got pregnant. I turned pro-choice right quick, and have been ever since

Ah, but that's exactly the point. These early to mid twenties voters that I'm talking about are exactly the ones who have the biggest risk of unwanted pregnancies. Young people from 18-25 are the demographic most at risk for unwanted pregnancies. Most of them are unmarried, and over 90% are sexually active, and many of them are not in a great financial position to care for a baby. In spite of that, young people are still pro-life. They are willing to take those risks, because they know that however hard and damaging to their life-plans a pregnancy might be, the fetus is still a child and a person and one whose life ought to protected and defended.

as an unmarried mid-20s guy, I know that if I got a girl pregnant, I would try to marry her and raise the child together- and if she didn't want either to marry or to raise a child then I would take the baby and raise it myself. I suspect most young men feel the same way, at least in the 50% who consider themselves pro-life.

Murder requires intent and forethought. Abortion is more like manslaughter if you want to compare it to anything.

I'm really confused here. How is it that abortion doesn't require intent and forethought. Manslaughter is distinguished from murder primarily through state of mind (i.e. heat of the moment), or negligence, neither of which seem to apply to electing to kill a living human via a planned medical procedure. If life does begin at conception, then abortion is a textbook case of murder, it seems to me. Where is the courage of your convictions?

For legal purposes it'd probably have to be compared to animal cruelty or self-mutilation.

I think that here lies the heart of your illogic. If abortion is akin to animal cruelty then you implicitly acknowledge that a fetus has a vastly different legal standing than does a human (like, for instance, a chicken). And your second option of self mutilation does not refer to fetal legal status whatsoever, but to female mental incapacity. So as soon as you start agitating for manslaughter convictions for dog fighting or getting a piercing, I'll start listening to you (if not taking you seriously) when you discuss abortion.

DMonteith is right. The abortion of a human being is quite distinct from the killing of an animal being, unless one follows the mistaken logic of neo-Darwinism that qualitatively human animals are not distinct from animals.

At base the whole argument is between a reductive naturalistic cosmos and a created theistic cosmos.
Many modern folk are imprisoned by their naturalistic world view.

Well unless you deem pregnancy itself to be one of the most horrible things that can happen.

Well, for a start, bacterial infection, toxemia, obstetrical hemorrhage, ectopic pregnancy, puerperal sepsis, and amniotic fluid embolism, not to mention unwanted children, aren't exactly a walk in the park. But, unless you are a woman named Thomas, you really don't have to consider these things when you find yourself having given into the overpowering biological urge to have sex, do you?


Monteith,

Murder requires the element of malice. Most women who have abortions are acting out of ignorance, not malice, because they (wrongly) believe that the fetus is not a person. While this is a tragedy, it does not make them equivalent to a murderer. The murderer knows that he is killing a human person, while the mother does not. The difference is not in the objective value of the act but in the subjective state of the mother.
This is why abortion is akin to manslaughter if it's akin to anything at all.

There are tons of ways to avoid unwanted children. Natural family planning. The Pill. Condoms. The birth control patch. The birth control injection. Adoption. If you use birth control and it fails, or if you aren't willing to give up your baby, then I feel for you and I think that society and your partner should both ensure that you have all the resources you need to care for your child and to pursue your own job/education/whatever as well. Beyond that, I would say that a certain degree of suffering is part of being human and living in the world, and that suffering can be redemptive and inspiring if we welcome it in the same spirit as Christ on the Cross. And i would also say that whatever the tragedy and unfairness for the woman, we cannot ask an innocent child to suffer for it.

It's been pointed out numerous times that opposition to abortion rights is strongest among the young, especially among young men. This means that you have it precisely backwards. There is not now, nor has there been for a while, majority support in this country for outlawing abortion. But there may be in the future, as today's young people become politicians and regular voters. If America is 'becoming' more pro-choice, then how come the young tend to be pro-life?

Abortion isn't a sex issue nor is it a gender issue- nor is it necessarily even a religious issue.

Hector, you are wrong on this for several reasons: (1) many of those "pro-life" men are not yet sexually active, and will become pro-choice when the threat of fathering an unwanted child becomes a reality; (2) I specifically pointed out that part of my predicted change in opinion about abortion relates to its relationship with sex and gender issues; I agree with you that if pro-lifers can keep it separated, they have a better chance of maintaining their support; BUT (3) I don't think that's going to happen, precisely because most pro-lifers DO have extremist paleolithic views about sex and gender-- I especially think that right wing opposition to contraception and gay rights are going to be deadly in the long term.

But mostly you are wrong about this because you don't understand how many people will become pro-choice when Roe is overturned. Pro-lifers have the luxury of advocating very extreme positions knowing that they are not going to be implemented. Overturn Roe and you will find that a lot of people will become very sympathetic with women in dire situations who are denied abortions.

Except in the case of rape/incest, prohibiting abortion is not forced pregnancy.

Well, it's either forced pregnancy or forced celibacy.

Really, it all gets back to right-wingers being a bunch of perverts when it comes to sex. The rest of us like sex, we want to have it, and we don't want to have children when we don't want to. Thanks to contraception and abortion, that lifestyle is available to us. You want to take it way from us by forcing us or our partners to become pregnant.

"Forced pregnancy" is thus completely appropriate.

At base the whole argument is between a reductive naturalistic cosmos and a created theistic cosmos.
Many modern folk are imprisoned by their naturalistic world view.

If you want to believe in things that don't have any basis, that's your right. But since this is the foundation of your belief that abortion should be illegal, you have no right to ask the government to use its monopoly on force to compel people who are intelligent enough to reject your fantasies to nonetheless live by the alleged rules of the universe as you see them.

Follow Matthew 6-- go practice your religion behind closed doors and leave the rest of us alone.

Beyond that, I would say that a certain degree of suffering is part of being human and living in the world, and that suffering can be redemptive and inspiring if we welcome it in the same spirit as Christ on the Cross.

Screw women's equality! Screw women who are in abusive relationships! Screw women who will be fired because they got pregnant, or who will be run out of town, or who will be forced into poverty! Suffering is the natural state of mankind, and we should welcome it the way a person we are not sure actually existed is alleged to welcome it in a legend that has been repeatedly proven false and self-contradictory over the course of 2000 years!

I am sorry, but the lives and hopes and dreams of those poor women are more important than your untrue religious beliefs.

"How is it that abortion doesn't require intent and forethought."

In most cases the woman has no intent or forethought to kill a person. It's like if you burn down an abandoned building and discover a person was in it. She also does not know a human being is in there. Or in other cases she might know it on some level, but have diminished capacity due to desperation and possibly hormones.

For it to be murder she'd have to be in sound mind, point-blank say it was a baby, and then do it anyway. Hence there are cases when a Pro-Lifer commits an abortion that might be murder.

Legally speaking though abortion I don't think was ever considered the same as even manslaughter and I think it is impractical or unreasonable to expect an unborn baby to be given the exact same legal rights as a born baby. However as a distinct human life it seems sensible it'd have some rights. The current situation is that it's nothing. It has less rights or protections than an ape or a woman's toe. If you doubt that see how easy you can get away with smashing a chimp to death because "I'll have a better career that way" or "it bit me and I got infected."

On another issue Monteith I'm celibate. Even if I wasn't my sister got pregnant at 20 when she was unmarried. The father was a drunk who later wound up in prison. When someone mentioned abortion to her she was deeply wounded they could think she'd do such a thing. I'm glad that she felt that way as her son's a great kid.

"women who will be fired because they got pregnant, or who will be run out of town, or who will be forced into poverty!"

What? Where is that happening? Isn't that a bigger injustice than any restriction on abortion?

I live in a small-town in a red-state. One of my classmates got pregnant at 15. Today she's running a fairly successful business. I'm sure she makes more money than I do. Granted that's an odd situation, but still where are they running women out of town?

Freddie wrote:

"I'd be interested to know how, exactly, the public is misinformed in its endorsement of abortion rights with limitations. Unless misinformed merely means that they don't agree with you."

There are two ways that Roe vs. Wade is misunderstood by the average American, and both misunderstandings make the pro-life cause more challenging than it would be otherwise. The first is that many people believe that if Roe were overturned, abortions would be automatically banned throughout the country. This misconception has been nurtured by pro-choicers in the media who argue as if this would be the case, when they must surely know that this scenario is false. The New York Times, for example, came out against the nomination of Samuel Alito on January 8, 2006 arguing in an editorial that he "might well...vote to make abortion legal." In doing so, the NYT created two misconceptions. First of all, Alito's confirmation still left five people on the court who had voted to uphold Roe in the 1992 Casey decision. Pro-lifers would need one of those five to retire, and replace them with an opponent of Roe for the NYT's alarmist account to be true. And even then, overturning Roe would not ban abortions across the country. It would simply return the issue of abortions to the states, which is where it was for the vast majority of our nation's history. I presume that socially liberal states would vote to make most abortions legal, and most socially conservative states would vote to restrict most abortions. But by claiming that an Alito would vote to ban abortions, the NYT makes the overturning of Roe appear more sweeping than it really would be, which is a major reason why a slight majority of Americans tend to oppose the reversal of Roe.

The second major misunderstanding about Roe is that most Americans don't realize how radical it was. Many people think that it legalized abortions in the first trimester but allowed states to place restrictions on abortions in the second and third trimester provided that there were exceptions for the life and health of the mother. This is a misconception, as the health exception was made so broad by Justice Blackmun in Doe vs. Bolton, the other abortion ruling handed down on that fateful day, that it essentially gutted any kind of potential restrictions. Blackmun wrote that the two decisions should be read together, and that the health exception should allow the medical judgment to: "...be exercised in the light of all factors--physical, emotional, psychological, familial..." In other words, any late term abortion could be justified by a doctor for perserving the woman's "emotional" health, which is another way of saying that abortions could be procured at any stage of the pregnancy for any reason. This is generally referred to as abortion on demand.

In sum, Roe vs. Wade and Doe vs. Bolton created a Constitutional right to abortion on demand. A solid majority of Americans oppose abortions in the second trimester, and an overwhelming number oppose abortions in the third trimester, yet abortions at this stage are considered a constitutional right.

Think of it this way, have you ever read about a doctor being prosecuted for performing a late-term abortion? I've read about one, but we know that while late-term abortions make up a small percentage of the total number of abortions, the number is still in the thousands (because the overall number of abortions is so depressingly high).

Finally, the media routinely gets the issue of Roe vs. Wade wrong in terms of carefully describing what it actually allowed. Most Americans simply don't realize how radical the ruling was, and that makes the task of the pro-life movement all the more daunting.

If the media did its job honestly and accurately stated what Roe vs. Wade did, while accurately stating what the reversal of Roe would do, then there is a decent chance that Americans would not view the reversal of Roe as such a bad thing. Again most Americans support the banning of second and third trimester abortions, and surely they would not oppose the right to put these views into law should they be given the democratic means to do so. This is generally how Europe has done it, and it's one of the major reasons why the abortion debate is not so divisive over there.

By the way, virtually everything I write about this subject is from Ponnuru's book, which I encourage everyone to read.

Dilan,

The number of people who are not just 'personally opposed' to contraception, but actually trying to get people to stop using it, is minuscule. First of all, the Catholic church is the only mainstream church body that disapproved of chemical birth control.

Even they don't talk much about the evils of contraception these days. I've never heard a homily in a Catholic church about contraception; I have heard a few about abortion. I worked for the last few years in a Third World country where I occasionally gave family planning talks. many of my collaborators were Catholic, they often didn't even know the official Church position on birth control. it's not something the Church devotes a lot of attention to. no Catholic leader has any intention of trying to legally or socially militate against birth control. they have a bigger struggle to wage, the struggle over abortion. The Catholic church is collecting all their political capital to wage a last ditch struggle against abortion.

Dilan,

Most men and women 18-25, who are a strongly pro-life demographic, are in fact sexually active, none of that changes the fact that they are pro-life. They are simply willing to accept the consequences if they happen because they know that the negative immpacts on their lives are less important than the death of a child.

I think that if any woman is fired on account of pregnancy (or just wants t quit) the government should provide for her financial needs through the pregnancy. I think the government should provide her with a job, with food and shelter, with prenatal and postnatal care, with child care, training, and moral support. I think that the baby's father should also be involved with raising his child. Do you know why those things aren't happening right now? Because neither the State nor the father has any need to because they can just say 'she should get rid of it', then it's her decision, and they are free from responsibility.

Abortion has destroyed the old notion of paternal responsibility, and has kept the new notion of societal responsibility from ever coming into existence, with the result that we're stuck with the worst of both worlds.

And your dismissive comment about the Son of God shows....well I don't know exactly what, but it shows something about hidden motivations.

Most men and women 18-25, who are a strongly pro-life demographic, are in fact sexually active, none of that changes the fact that they are pro-life. They are simply willing to accept the consequences if they happen because they know that the negative immpacts on their lives are less important than the death of a child.

They think they're willing to accept those consequences, but UNTIL IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS it's just a hypothetical.

Like I said, if you would have asked me the week before my girlfriend found out she was pregnant, I would have said the same BS about being willing to accept the consequences blah blah blah. Then I was faced with the actual situation, and decided it wasn't worth screwing up our lives for the sake of some fetus who on the consciousness spectrum doesn't even reach the level of a mouse.

Murder requires the element of malice. Most women who have abortions are acting out of ignorance, not malice, because they (wrongly) believe that the fetus is not a person. While this is a tragedy, it does not make them equivalent to a murderer. The murderer knows that he is killing a human person, while the mother does not.

What if I (wrongly) believe that black people are not human and I kill one. Will I be charged with manslaughter? After all, my intent is not to kill a human. I suspect that in this case, as in most legal matters, a claim of ignorance would not lessen my culpability. If you think that this example is different from the case of abortion, then the difference must stem from differences in the status of the victim in these cases because the intent is the same. Again, where is your certainty? The issue is clear if you really believe that a fetus is a complete human being with all the rights that implies. All this weaseling around about intent and ignorance and manslaughter implies that you don't really believe that fetuses are full human citizens.

Also, implicit in your view is a belief in the incapacity of women to understand their actions and their consequences. Are all women who have abortions ignorant? Is a well informed decision to terminate pregnancy impossible by definition? Have you tried explaining your theory to a woman who has had an abortion? Remind me to be far away when you do...

...suffering can be redemptive and inspiring if we welcome it in the same spirit as Christ on the Cross. Well, coming from someone who's not going to be doing the suffering (unless, of course, you're actually a woman named Hector or are an unwanted child), that is some piss poor consolation. And it does even less for those who don't care one way or the other about Jesus (i.e. the majority of humans on the planet).

...it is impractical or unreasonable to expect an unborn baby to be given the exact same legal rights as a born baby. Therefore you are not actually pro-life! Human rights are not just some neat idea that you indulge until you need to start being "reasonable" or "practical". If you truly believed that a fertilized egg was philosophically, spiritually and ethically the same as a human, then you would not so casually grant that fetal rights are impractical or, better yet, unreasonable. I mean, the pro-choice position is arguing that exact premise. In all of your posts you give away the game this way, by acknowledging that a fetus actually is different from a human.

Which brings us to your secondary claim (which is actually the totality of your argument since we've just established your lack of fetal rights bona fides): ...she might know it on some level, but have diminished capacity due to desperation and possibly hormones. Aha! Those damn women just don't know any better. We better just make sure they do what we know is best for them! Y'know...'hormones'! If you wonder why someone would call you a misogynist, this is it. This is also why your celibate lifestyle is liable to continue to be a viable option for you.

Miscellany:

It has less rights or protections than an ape or a woman's toe. It is extremely difficult to get an abortion after 20 weeks. There basically has to be a threat to the life of the mother or severe birth defects. And the vast, and I mean vast, majority of pro-choicers are just fine with that.

On another issue Monteith I'm celibate. Well, given that your lifestyle (assuming that it's by choice) lies at least three standard deviations from the mean, the point that most people find sex (and its unintended consequences) irresistibly compelling for biological reasons still stands.

PS--If you die a virgin, make that 5 or 6 standard deviations from the mean.

Well, it's either forced pregnancy or forced celibacy.

Really, it all gets back to right-wingers being a bunch of perverts when it comes to sex. The rest of us like sex, we want to have it, and we don't want to have children when we don't want to. Thanks to contraception and abortion, that lifestyle is available to us. You want to take it way from us by forcing us or our partners to become pregnant.

"Forced pregnancy" is thus completely appropriate.

Dilan, have all the mind-blowing, non-procreative sex you want to. You don't think I know that my own peculiar views on sex and procreation are about as relevant to contemporary america or americans as Otis Redding and Sam Cooke are to what is today called "R & B?" Trust me, I do, I'm reminded of it everyday, and I'm okay with it. Have your sex and make your family planning decisions in whatever way you think is appropriate. Just leave abortion out of it - it's not morally justified, it's not part of any responsible or useful birth control or family planning regime, and it doesn't work as one. The promise that abortion would ensure that every child was a wanted child has not come to pass - rather, the illegitimacy rate has skyrocketed since abortion on demand. Treating unborn human life as disposable has, by and large, been a catastrophe for America.

Just as you believe that having sex is a good thing, having children is a good thing. If the children are well-cared for, it is likely they will have fulfilling lives and make the world a richer, fuller and more beautiful place. So let's figure out a way to have them well-cared for instead of sending the message that they never should be born in the first place because their parents aren't married, because their parents don't own a home yet, or because their folks aren't in the right tax bracket. When I was born 27 years ago, my parents didn't fulfill any of those criteria (still don't in fact), but I'm glad I was born and not aborted.

The US can have non-procreative sex outside of marriage, women's equality of opportunity, and restricted abortion. Other countries do. And once we've established that unborn children should be valued and not disposed of, we'll get better prenatal care which will improve the health of our children, which is currently abysmal for a nation as wealthy as ours. And that's just the beginning.

Monteith,

6 s.d.'s from the mean means literally, about one in a million. I am sure there are more than 300 people in America who die a virgin. Isaac Newton did. Simone Weil, one of my favorite political thinkers, did. John Ruskin did. T.E. Lawrence did. Nikola Tesla did. The recently retired president of India probably will. Plenty of Catholic priests and Orthodox bishops do. When you say something like that it just detracts from your credibility.

An unborn child need not be the full equivalent of a legal human person in order to have certain rights- and if he or she has any rights at all, then the prime one must be the right to life.

It is a truth that the unborn child is a person, but that truth is a subtle one that can be known only through reflection, introspection, and the reliance both on healthy intuition and on informed reason. There are reasons why pre-Christian societies (including the Jews apparently) tolerated abortion while not tolerating murder; the reason is that without grace, people are not capable of understanding the truth about when life begins. But we live in the age of grace, since the first century, and in the age of embryology since the nineteenth, and so we should act on the new knowledge that both spirituality and science give us, and outlaw abortion. It isn't as easy to know, by pure reason, that life begins at implantation, than it is to know that all human beings are one species. Therefore, while it is still a truth that the unborn child is a human person, I believe that we should have mercy on those who sin out of ignorance, and not out of malice. We should still stop them from doing what they are doing of course, but they shouldn't be judged too harshly. The doctors who know about embryology should know better and should be treated as more culpable.

Modern embryology is crystal clear that the joining of sperm and ovum-the Zygote-contains the essentials of life that all of us once began with.

This is asserted constantly by anti-choice advocates, but it's usually untrue as they phrase it, or at base misleading. It's an attempt to establish a scientific answer (usually by misrepresenting the science) to what can't be other than a moral or philosophical question. To say that science says "Life begins at conception" is simply a lie. Science says no such thing. I'm afraid you can't extricate yourself from the moral question through appeals to science.

Monteith when a criminal doesn't know the difference between right and wrong or when they are deluded enough to think they're not killing people they actually can be declared to have diminished capacity.

And my statement on hormones referred to pregnancy alone. In some areas I have more respect for women than men. However pregnancy does effect mood. If it's different it's because men are quite likely more hormonal and moody, for us it's constantly a problem. I'm leery of letting a man drive me because we're bad drivers and we get this testosterone pumping in us that makes us take stupid risks. I almost killed myself in an electric wheelchair. Men represent over 90% of murderers and an even higher percentage of rapists. So women having moments of destructive irrationality is more worth commenting on because it's rarer.

I'm a bit sexist though. Part of me thinks it seems clear women are better. You wipe out half the male population and a society can eventually rebound. Maybe not a 100%, but something like that happened to Paraguay. I know of no society that lost half it's women and turned out okay. The Whiptail lizard is an all-female species, I know of no all-male species. In fact the idea of an all-men species strikes me as absurd. Men are expendable in comparative genetic terms and in nature boy babies are miscarried more. However due to tradition and my Christian faith I accept we are equal to women. Also there are some men who are okay.

As for other things the fact is rights do vary by age. A 2-year-old does not have the right to vote or be in a jury. A pre-born is not going to have the same rights as someone born. However I believe it should be allowed to have some. Rights aren't always an all or none proposition.

On another matter I think Hector is slightly wrong. The Catholic Church is quite clear it believes contraception is wrong. Although I believe it states that in cases of adultery and pre-marital sex it's kind of irrelevant. Those are already sins and using contraception won't worsen that or change it much. In a majority non-Catholic nation like ours contraception can be legal to avoid some greater evil. Although some Catholic Churches are uncomfortable with insurance that provides for it as they see that as forcing them to support sin.

Hector,

Your position relies on:

1)Hedged and inconsistent claims of fetal status.

2)Assumptions of female incompetence.

3)Appeals to christian dogma and that are utterly unconvincing and arbitrary to those who do not share your religious views.

I would argue that the above hodgepodge of misogyny and nonsense undermines your credibility far more than my editorial decision to substitute "6 standard deviations from the mean" for "very few people" in the postscript to my last comment. In fact, your picayune literalism presages the fact that you have no substantive rebuttal to offer concerning my weightier claims.

But, if it helps redeem my tarnished credibility, I am willing to accept the claim that there are currently more that 300 people in the US who will die virgins. What, my dear boy, will you do to redeem yours?

The first is that many people believe that if Roe were overturned, abortions would be automatically banned throughout the country.

tourourke, I agree this is a misconception that people have about Roe, but I think you are being a bit disingenuous about this. The goal of the pro-life movement is to ban abortions, not to leave the issue to the states. The Republican Party platform calls for a human life amendment, not simply the overturn of Roe. Republicans have already pushed national partial birth abortion laws and laws to prevent women from circumventing abortion laws by going across state lines; I assume that pro-lifers would seek to ban abortions nationally or at least make it very difficult for anyone not living in a very liberal state to get an abortion.

So it is a misconception, but it isn't as big a misconception as you portray it.

In other words, any late term abortion could be justified by a doctor for perserving the woman's "emotional" health, which is another way of saying that abortions could be procured at any stage of the pregnancy for any reason.

This is how pro-life groups read Doe, but it isn't actually what Doe holds. It is true that late term abortion is permitted to preserve a woman's mental health. I think pro-life groups that make fun of this restriction are callous evil bastards who don't give a crap about women-- mental health can mean the woman is going to commit suicide if she doesn't get an abortion. It is a serious issue and should not be mocked.

But saying that a woman can establish to her doctor's satisfaction that she has a mental health issue that requires a therapeutic abortion is very different than abortion on demand; the woman has to engage in some very intrusive discussions with her doctor, and the doctor may still turn her down. Abortion on demand is where you just go to the clinic and get the abortion. That describes 1st trimester abortions; it does not describe 3rd trimester abortions. The pro-life groups-- who have apparently forgotten their religious belief about bearing false witness (which unlike the alleged prohibition on abortion is actually IN the Bible)-- don't tell the truth about this.

Freddie wrote:

"This is asserted constantly by anti-choice advocates, but it's usually untrue as they phrase it, or at base misleading. It's an attempt to establish a scientific answer (usually by misrepresenting the science) to what can't be other than a moral or philosophical question. To say that science says "Life begins at conception" is simply a lie. Science says no such thing. I'm afraid you can't extricate yourself from the moral question through appeals to science."

So I suppose the following excerpts from embryology textbooks are just as a bunch of lies spread by anti-choice advocates:

1. "In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual." William J. Larsen, Human Embryology, 3rd edition (Philadelphia: Churchill Livingstone, 2001), p. 1.

2. "Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human (6th edition, 1998), p. 18

3. "It needs to be emphasized that life is continuous, as is also human life, so that the question, 'When does (human) life begin?' is meaningless in terms of ontogeny. Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a 'moment') is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte." Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola Mueller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition (New York: Wiley-Liss, 2000), p. 8.

4. "Fertilization is the process whereby two sex cells (gametes) fuse together to create a new individual with genetic potentials derived from both parents." The first sentence of the chapter titled "Fertilization: Beginning a New Organism" of Scott F. Gilbert's Developmental Biology, 6th edition (Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates, 2000)

Freddie, I think you're confusing life with personhood. No serious person who has reviewed the science can argue that a new, genetically-distinct member of the human species has not been created at conception. Of course, it seems that plenty of pro-choicers, including some on this board, want to deny this, which is amusing coming from members of the self-proclaimed reality-based community. Why do these people hate science?

But you're right that even if pro-choicers were to acknowledge the facts of basic embryology, they could still maintain that this genetically-distinct member of the human species is not an actual person with rights. And you're right again that this question is a philosophical and moral one. I think that trying to make a distinction between a living human entity and a human person is arbitrary as well as philosophically and morally bankrupt, but that's probably a discussion for another time.

Thomas R.,

Yes I know that the Catholic Church position is against artificial contraception. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I hope that it changes eventually, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm Anglican, not Catholic, so it doesn't affect me personally.

My point was that they aren't arguing, anywhere in the world, even in entirely Catholic nations, for the 'sin' of contraception to be illegal, nor are putting much effort into trying to stop people from using it. Contraception is fully legal and very widely used throughout South America, which is why the birth rate there has dropped from over 4 to now around 2.5 children per woman. My impression is that homilies are not often given against contraception. Catholic social service agencies do not fund, encourage, or provide contraception but nor do they go out and actively try to dissuade people from using them. (I'm talking more about the Pill here and other chemical methods than about condoms.) Catholic priests and bishops may think that it's a sin but certainly not one on the level of abortion. I've heard about priests in South American countries essentially saying, when asked, 'well, the teaching of the church is such-and-such, but i know it's a difficult situation....i'm sorry i can't help you more.' certainly very different than the stern condemnation they would give about abortion.

If you can give me evidence that the Church is right now actively trying to get people in, say, South American countries to stop using contraception, I would be very interested.

Hugo,

I agree with your post entirely and it was very eloquent. While we are coming from the issue from two different angles (I was actually pro-choice until I was in college, my conversion to pro-life paralleled my becoming a Christian), i think that we have some substantive agreement. I think that it would be nice if conservatives could compromise on a bigger role for social/state provision for families and children, liberals could compromise on a bigger emphasis on responsibility for one's children and sexual behavior, and both could help create a society in which abortion was both illegal and unncecessary.

You're 27? me too....interesting.

Personally, I was "pro-life," until my early twenties when my girlfriend got pregnant. I turned pro-choice right quick, and have been ever since!

In other words, "I am a bad person." Why exactly should we listen to people who decide, hey, killing isn't so bad when it's convenient?

(Ok, apologies to Eve Tushnet -- the concept of "a bad person" is problematic from a Christian perspective, though I think it has some defense from the Christian version of Aristotle's view of a nature for man, where one can be "bad at" being what is proper and best for man).

Still -- the argument "look, you think that sleeping with a fourteen year old is wrong, but then you find out how HOT she is" does not really carry moral weight. Sure, we all lie and cheat and steal and some of us kill, when push comes to shove. But is don't make an ought.

Dilan Esper wrote:

"tourourke, I agree this is a misconception that people have about Roe, but I think you are being a bit disingenuous about this. The goal of the pro-life movement is to ban abortions, not to leave the issue to the states. The Republican Party platform calls for a human life amendment, not simply the overturn of Roe. Republicans have already pushed national partial birth abortion laws and laws to prevent women from circumventing abortion laws by going across state lines; I assume that pro-lifers would seek to ban abortions nationally or at least make it very difficult for anyone not living in a very liberal state to get an abortion."

No, the real disingenuity is exhibited by people like Chris Matthews, who argued on Hardball that Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers might "actually operate on the court as someone who tries to outlaw [abortion] by getting rid of Roe v. Wade." I have a hard time believing that Chris Matthews and the editorial board at the New York Times are this ignorant with respect to a) how many anti-Roe judges would be on the court even after a Miers or Alito were confirmed, and b) that the Supreme Court could ban abortion nationwide by overturning Roe v. Wade.

You admitted that people do have a misconception on Roe, and I respect you for making that admission. But I'm curious as to why you think this misconception exists. Do pro-choicers in the media have any role in perpetuating this misconception, and do they have any obligation to refrain from alarmism even when it might not serve their ideological interests?

As for your other points, I have no problem admitting that pro-lifers want to restrict abortion as much as possible (most pro-lifers are not under the delusion that they will get a complete and total ban across the country). I don't even think any state will be able to achieve a complete ban on abortion, but as long as the state had its abortion law enacted through its state legislature after a vigorous debate, then I think most pro-lifers would at least feel that they had a fair shake in things, which is completely the opposite of what they have now.

The fact that Congress might vote to ban late-term abortions, as it has already voted to ban partial-birth abortion, is a perfectly legitimate expression of a representative democracy in action. Are you suggesting that this is somehow illegitimate? The vast majority of Americans opposed partial-birth abortion. How is it illegitimate for Congress to pass legislation based on the overwhelming desire of the American people?

Some pro-lifers may demand a push for a Human Life Amendment, but the chances of that passing are incredibly small, and if the public reacted against the amendment strongly enough, then pro-lifers would probably get hurt at the voting booth come election time. And the problem with this is...what?

As for Congress passing laws to prevent women from obtaining abortions across state lines, I could see this as a reasonable way of preventing wealthier women from procuring an abortion by flying to a different part of the country. Pro-choicers like Scott Lemieux over at Tapped are forever lamenting how the rich would still be able to obtain abortions while the poor would be stuck with whatever laws are on the books in the state they live in. Surely people who argue in this vein would not object to making it more challenging for rich women to flout the law that the poor have to live under. Right? Even then, if Congress enacted the law, and people reacted negatively enough by voting the pro-lifers out of office, then, well, that's the way it goes.
Presumably, if Americans felt strongly enough about the issue, they would vote people in to change said law.

Furthermore, I doubt Congress would take up anything related to abortion that did not have a clear majority of support one way or the other, because of the risk of backlash at the polls. In fact, I think Congress would be overjoyed to have most of the issue settled at the state level. Thus if Roe v. Wade were overturned, I think Congress would start off by banning third term abortions unless the life of the mother were at risk or the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest. From there, they might move to second trimester abortions with the same exceptions. And so on. It's impossible to predict exactly how things would go, but it's doubtful that pro-lifers would commit electoral suicide by trying to ram a nationwide ban on abortion at any point in the pregnancy through Congress.

It seems to me that most of your points stem from your objection to pro-lifers even having the right to have their views heard fairly within the democratic process at all. Yes, there would be some laws passed democratically that you would probably not like, but that's how life is supposed to work in a democracy. The Supreme Court imposed its liberal views on the entire country, in the hopes that the issue would be settled. They could not have been more mistaken. To argue that Roe v. Wade should still be on the books, is to continue to argue that a huge portion of the country should have no say in an issue that is simply not going away. Undemocratic and illiberal to the core.

We've tried one form of Prohibition in this country already, and it didn't work too well.

If Roe falls, the next time that there's a Republican president and a Republican/conservative Democratic congress, there'll be a national ban. In the interim, conservative states will ban it.

The years between state bans and a federal ban will be interesting. Wealthy (mostly white, mostly southern) women will suddenly take many more "long weekends" to New York, California, Nevada. Poor (mostly southern) women will suddenly get an education in the neo-underground railroad. Reproductive assistance services (IVF and the like) will shut down immediately in pro-life states. Aggressive county prosecutors will seek restraining orders preventing pregnant women from travelling. Civil rights groups will be labelled as criminal syndicates, and would start acting that way. etc.

A federal ban should be even more entertaining. The Governor of California would have no choice but to refuse to comply with the federal law, and send out National Guard troops to protect clinics against seizure by federal troops. Tremendous stress would be put on Army soldiers. Massive demonstrations could easily cripple the American economy.

Here's a very simple truth. If a law, especially a criminal law, is supported only by a bare majority, that law is doomed to failure. Laws work only when a large majority of the population supports the law, so that the society can afford the investigative/judicial/penological resources to punish the lawbreakers. Having a large percentage of society willing to break the law inevitably will drive the society toward a police state.

So, instead of trying so hard to get the law changed, I recommend that the pro-life community work much harder on changing people's minds.

You admitted that people do have a misconception on Roe, and I respect you for making that admission. But I'm curious as to why you think this misconception exists. Do pro-choicers in the media have any role in perpetuating this misconception, and do they have any obligation to refrain from alarmism even when it might not serve their ideological interests?

It is partly that. The pro-choice movement, like the pro-life movement, doesn't always tell the truth. (You should have seen the number of solicitations that said we were one vote away from overturning Roe when we were two.)

But it is also partly that the issue itself is complex. The average American thinks of the distinction between abortion legal and illegal, i.e., it's legal now and it will be illegal tomorrow, rather than what would actually happen if Roe were overturned.

But as I said, it's not as big an issue as pro-lifers claim it is, because pro-lifers really do want to ban abortions, not just send the matter back to the states.

The fact that Congress might vote to ban late-term abortions, as it has already voted to ban partial-birth abortion, is a perfectly legitimate expression of a representative democracy in action. Are you suggesting that this is somehow illegitimate?

It's not so much that (though actually I think the law is unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause, and Clarence Thomas, of all people, probably agrees with me). It's that it is a demonstration that the pro-life movement isn't going to be satisfied with state and local bans. They are going to seek federal legislation to make abortion as difficult as possible even in the liberal jurisdictions.

As for Congress passing laws to prevent women from obtaining abortions across state lines, I could see this as a reasonable way of preventing wealthier women from procuring an abortion by flying to a different part of the country.

I disagree with that, but again, that's not really my point. My point is that saying "it will be left to the states" is a lot different from saying "we will get a federal law passed that prevents women from getting an abortion anywhere else if their local jurisdiction prohibits it". That may be many things; it is not leaving the issue to the states.

If Roe falls, the next time that there's a Republican president and a Republican/conservative Democratic congress, there'll be a national ban.

Oh, what utter nonsense, and you're either a fool or you know it. Not to go the Larison route and assume almost all GOP pro-life noise is half-hearted and calculated, but a full-on abortion ban wouldn't even pass the state legislature of most conservative states. Politicians aren't fools, and they aren't (generally) that sort of pro-life idealist, and the public is (right now) not very open to that. Conservative states would ban a lot of abortions -- with rape, incest, and life of mother exceptions I'll wager ending up in almost every version. Some more "social moderate" places would have similar bans on third-trimester abortions (and the nation might get one). That's about it. That's democracy, buddy. I realize you don't like it, in this case, and prefer a ludicrous constitution-deforming piece of judicial arrogation, but the current state of affairs is _politically_ and _democratically_ problematic even if you think it's right, and the state of affairs after it ends is not a pro-life dream -- it's something closer to the reality of opinion in America.

Francis also offers a fascinating defense in his nutty scenario, of slavery and segregation.

Really -- even other pro-choice stalwarts -- Dilan, do _you_ think Francis' scenario bears any remote resemblance to anything like a post-Roe world? Massive rebellion, a nationwide ban, civil disorder, etc.? It's like Pat Cadigan's science fiction story, "Dispatches from the Revolution", which had a certain interest and was engagingly written, but for heaven's sake, it was science fiction.

"we will get a federal law passed that prevents women from getting an abortion anywhere else if their local jurisdiction prohibits it"

But, Dilan, you know that unless the opinions of the American people change a whole lot, that's _not going to happen_, right? Yes, pro-lifers want it.

Look, some folks pushing for Social Security wanted full blown SOCIALISM or COMMUNISM. It's true, you can look it up. But, er, as an argument against Social Security, it's weaker than arguments about Social Security itself. Liberals should understand this. The desires of some supporters of a movement aren't equal to the practical consequences of that movement, unless the movement becomes much more powerful and popular than it is. And, er, if the Strong Pro-Life position becomes so popular Congress passes a federal ban, I'm not sure what the argument against it is, other than the Constitutional argument that would have died with Roe, or the "my side can never lose." But, relax, breath, take a moment to consider. Your side is nowhere near losing that battle -- even getting Roe overturned is not likely in the near term, and a federal ban from Congress is stunningly unlikely. Admittedly, if the public face of abortion were Dilan's "well, it's just a really handy form of birth control so this stupid stuff about responsibility and concern for human life doesn't have to get in the way of good orgasms" or JK's "yeah, whatever, theory -- wait'll you knock somebody up and have to do the right thing, then you'll be totally willing to use the vacuum on the little skull yourself!", it might be possible, but that won't happen.

oh, i was wrong...6 s.d.'s actually means one in a billion, not one in a million, so by Mr. Monteith's calculation there should be only about 40 virgins left in the whole world.

Francis,

You're right, we need to focus first and foremost at changing people's minds. So how do you recommend we do that? The pro-choice people have prevented laws that would ensure that women have counseling about what an abortion is. they've struck down laws about waiting periods. They've made it easier for 15 and 16 year old kids to get abortions- these are kids who don't even know what their values are yet, they could well end up living the rest of their lives full of guilt, depression and self-hatred because they had an abortion and no adult was there to talk them out of it. They've made it illegal to pray outside an abortion clinic in Boston or L.A., both of which are predominantly Catholic cities. God only knows what they say if people tried to add an anti-abortion message to high school sex-ed classes. The pro-choice side wants to make sure that pro-life voices are never heard. I think it would be nice to have something modelled after suicide hotlines, for pregnant women who can call in and friendly people will try and dissuade them from having an abortion. Can you imagine the uproar that the pro-choice people would start if something like that ever became a reality?

So how are we supposed to change people's minds, again, when you guys do your best to make it impossible? The pro-choice side says 'let the people choose' and then they do their best to ensure that people can't make an informed choice.

Really -- even other pro-choice stalwarts -- Dilan, do _you_ think Francis' scenario bears any remote resemblance to anything like a post-Roe world? Massive rebellion, a nationwide ban, civil disorder, etc.? It's like Pat Cadigan's science fiction story, "Dispatches from the Revolution", which had a certain interest and was engagingly written, but for heaven's sake, it was science fiction.

To answer your question honestly, Marquis, I don't know what will happen for sure post-Roe. I do know, however, that there is a large, federal lobbying apparatus for pro-life causes (and I am not being pejorative here; there is also one for pro-choice causes) and it will seek national legislation of various kinds on the subject. Thus, I don't think that it is completely accurate to say that Roe will return the matter to the states; if Clarence Thomas had his way, I think it would, but in the real world, where there are probably 8 votes on the Supreme Court for expansive interpretations of the Commerce Power, there would be a distinct possibility of anti-abortion legislation of some kinds passing the Congress.

I also think there will be states that will ban abortion outright, and there will be a huge fight over women who seek to escape those regulations by going to other jurisdictions. That has happened in Ireland, for instance. I think there will also be a black market in illegal abortions.

But I really can't answer the ultimate question-- how easy will it be to get an abortion in a post-Roe world. I could see it being a basically symbolic ban in some states, easily circumvented; and I can also see states trying to make it stick and making it very difficult on women.

What I can say, however, with some certainty, is that one of the singular features of this debate is that even though pro-lifers are only about 1/3 of the population (the other 2/3 being either pro-choicers or mushy moderates), they have been able to attain the power they have over the GOP because of their willingness to vote on this single issue, whereas there are very few single-issue voters on the pro-choice side. If Roe were overturned, this would instantly change, and it would probably be an absolute disaster for pro-life politicians, especially in more liberal states. (You'd be surprised, for instance, how many pro-lifers sit in the California legislature-- almost all would be gone at the next election if the right to an abortion suddenly were a question that the California legislature had the power to answer.)

So I am much more certain about the political backlash to overturning Roe than I am about what would happen to the right.

"Most men and women 18-25, who are a strongly pro-life demographic, are in fact sexually active, none of that changes the fact that they are pro-life."

I think you may be misunderstanding how we feel. Since I am one of these young people, I feel like I have a decent understanding of what a lot of us believe. Most of us seem to be more in the category of 'I would never have an abortion, but I don't want laws against banning it' Certainly many think that partial birth abortion is wrong, and late term abortions are also wrong but to act like people who wouldn't have abortions are against others being able to make that choice is false logic.

Anyways, the majority of conceptions end up in miscarriages often before the mother knows it. Even a successful implantation is not any type of guarantee of a live birth. Don't you think that if God considered conception to be the start of life, he would have designed us to not kill off the majority of "lives" before they are born?

JordanT: er, last I checked God "designed us" so that every single one of us dies at some point. I'm not sure the existence of heart attacks and lung cancer is good justification for me going around bumping off stressed-out, heavy-drinking, chain-smoking, red-meat eating junior executives. But I'm willing to give it a shot, if it's ok with the law and with God, who seems to have it in for 'em already. Back in the days when disease and accident killed a huge number of people before they reached the age of ten, was child murder good stuff, or at least not something we'd want laws against?

Dilan: Not unreasonable. But the last point is exactly the key --- most pro-lifers I know would be a lot happier with the "mushy moderates" (who would end up winning in most places, I suspect, and almost certainly would triumph in the long run nationally) running the show than the current regime, which you have to admit is not really in step with the actual middle-of-the-road average of the American public. The current abortion regime is pretty peculiarly close to what NOW or NARAL would have it be, except for federal funding and (just recently, after a huge struggle) a particular kind of late-term abortion. That's oddly out of step -- if pro-choicers want that to be the case, they should concentrate on changing hearts and minds, not so much on keeping the undemocratic status quo in the law.

Marquis: Have you heard about the South Dakota abortion wars? The state is within a hairsbreadth of banning all abortions, including those arising from rape or incest.

(Parenthetically, I respect the logical consistency. If a fertilized pre-implantation egg is a "person" under law, then the only possible legal justification for killing it is self-defense, ie, the mother must be in immediate peril of her own death.)

So what do you think will happen in Georgia after Roe falls? NARAL may be pretty useless these days, but do you honestly think it will remain so when abortions go from being impractical to illegal?

Hector: The Bush presidency was the most evangelical ever and you're still complaining about not getting your message out? Maybe it's the message.

Oh, and try meeting more women who have had an abortion. Their lack of false consciousness and their lack of need for counseling may surprise you. Many of them simply chose, with a clear and sound mind, not to be pregnant. They weighed their right to personal autonomy, health and future reproductive desires against the rights of a small group of cells, and the cells lost.

Note: No one has addressed my main point -- Prohibition of an act that has the support of a substantial plurality is doomed to failure. It only engenders contempt for the law and the growth of criminal enterprises.

Francis,

But, politics being politics, at least in this case it's doubtful that "an act that has the support of a substantial plurality" is going to get banned. Second and third trimester abortions don't have support that's very deep, and in the places (South Dakota) where you might actually get a more blanket ban -- well, there isn't apparently _that_ big a plurality in favor of abortion. That's why it's possible, politically, to come close to banning it in those places.

Anyway, in practice the result won't be some gigantic criminal enterprise on par with, say, Al Capone or drug crime. Look at pre-Roe America. It wasn't a police state, and only a small number of pro-lifers are so dedicated that they'd impose lunatic restrictions (no travel between states by pregnant women?) in order to make abortion harder, once it is, to whatever extent it is, outlawed.

Abortions will still happen -- they'll be more difficult to attain and (yes) they'll be less safe. Moreover, advances in non-surgical abortions will probably eventually make it almost impossible to stop early-term abortions, anyway (yes, you may not be able to buy it at your local Rite Aid, but getting an out-of-state internet order won't be that hard, and someone will turn a tidy profit selling it to the poor who don't know how to ebay up a dead baby).

"So, instead of trying so hard to get the law changed, I recommend that the pro-life community work much harder on changing people's minds."

There's no reason the two are mutually exclusive.

In any event the rate of abortion would likely go down if abortion were banned. Yes I know there was a study that people claimed said otherwise, but the authors were deliberately misinterpreting it as they were a Pro-Choice organization. All they really showed is that the nations that ban abortion have high pregnancy rates. Per-pregnancy the restrictive countries had a low rate of abortion, but they end up as higher per-woman because of the pregnancy rate. When you control for pregnancy rates you find that nations that have low pregnancy rates and strict restrictions on abortion, like Malta or Chile, often have low abortion rates.

So the poor would likely have more children per-capita if abortion were restricted. In particular the poor in New York, Delaware, Florida, and Nevada

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_abo_rat-health-abortion-rate

As the poor in non-religious states, such as those, tend to be Democrats in time that could turn those states blue. In addition more kids raised in poverty might increase interest in government-aid for poor families. So in theory it's actually possible restricted abortion would turn the country Left.

I meant two of them could turn blue. New York and Delaware are already strong Democratic states. Florida and Nevada are more mixed, but lean red.

Re: As for Congress passing laws to prevent women from obtaining abortions across state lines, I could see this as a reasonable way of preventing wealthier women from procuring an abortion by flying to a different part of the country.

Such bans would be flat out unconstitutioinal (and counter to all legal reasoning going back to the Romans). A state can only criminalize what happens in its own borders; its laws cannot touch what occurs outside its jurisdiction. This is why people who live in states with no legal gambling can go to Vegas and bet up a storm; or people who live in dry counties can booze it up in the wet county next door.

Jonf is right, I'm pretty sure -- though there's no constitutional problem with laws against transporting a minor to another state for purposes of obtaining an abortion.

In practice, such laws would be totally impractical -- what, border inspections to see if you left pregnant and came back not-pregnant?

Marquis:

Such laws would probably become weapons in court fights to keep women in a particular state to have a baby. That's what has occurred in Ireland.

More broadly, I don't think that people on your side of this issue have really formed any consensus on what society is supposed to look like after Roe is overturned, i.e., federal vs. state bans, and how much will be done to make the ban "stick". I think this makes my point about pro-choice single issue voters coming out of the woodwork even more trenchant, because the right wing may be divided over the severity and extent of abortion restrictions.

Marquis,

I don't think there's anything unconstitutional about a state governing the behaviors of its residents when they leave. Certainly we have laws like that on a Federal level. For example, it's now illegal for an American guy to go to, say, England and sleep with a 17-year old girl there, even though she is over the age of consent in England. Even though it's not a crime in England, that guy will be arrested as soon as he gets back to the States. I imagine that similar laws could be made about abortion.

Thomas R,

I was under the impression that the (illegal) abortion rate in Chile was actually quite high. Can you link me to your statistic about abortion rates in Chile?

I'll take Jonf and Marquis at their word that a law prohibiting people from crossing state lines to obtain an abortion would be unconstitutional. I'm not well-versed in this area, so I'll defer to their judgments. But in thinking out loud (so to speak), are people allowed to cross into Oregon to "benefit" from physician-assisted suicide being legal there? Didn't Congress pass DOMA years back to prevent people from one state obtaining marriage licenses in a different state? Can't Congress pass laws like this, or am I comparing apples and oranges? Again, I'm thinking out loud here. Help me out.

But if JonF and Marquis are right, then surely pro-lifers would have to think twice about something that would only be struck down by the courts and invite the inevitable political backlash. All the more reason why the reversal of Roe would not bring about the sweeping changes people like Dilan fear. And all the more reason not to present such a reversal of something that is clearly unconstitutional--Roe v. Wade--as alarming.

Chile's rate was high, but has declined as overall fertility has declined. Guttmacher's latest on Chile, that I find, is from 1991 and is almost certainly out of date. Deaths from illegal abortion declined almost 80% from 1964-1979 alone.

Also of interest they aren't jailing massive amounts of people. The report I read said 50 are currently in jail for providing abortions.

Interesting. I did know that Chile, surprisingly, has quite a low fertility rate, only 1.94 this year. This is quite amazing considering that it's a highly traditional and religious country- I believe they only legalized divorce last year? In general, the countries of Latin America, even the ones which still have a state religion, don't have particularly high fertility rates these days.

Dilan Esper writes: "Such laws would probably become weapons in court fights to keep women in a particular state to have a baby. That's what has occurred in Ireland."

I believe the case Dilan is referring to involved a young girl who wanted to travel to England to have an abortion. (I forget the exact details, but the pregnancy may have been the result of a rape.)

One can well imagine the spectrum of cases that could arise here in the US - parents or would-be fathers lining up to essentially keep their wimmen-folk prisoner until the frog dropped, out of dreadful fear that she might escape to some rotten old Blue State. It's Dred Scott all over again.

If Roe goes down the fundies will be all over this sort of wrinkle.

Moe,

Surely you can understand the concerns of those of us who are concerned for the protection of babies, be they born or unborn, as much as for adults. It is a tragedy what happened to that poor girl in Ireland who may have been violated. But the problem is not solved by destroying the baby, you only compound it. Now you have two victims instead of one, and you compound the poor girl's pain over having been violated with guilt over destroying a child.

I'm not a 'fundie', nor am I a Catholic, nor am I even particularly orthodox in my Christianity. But if we are going to accept anything at all from the Christian tradition, then we need to accept the teachings of Jesus, who said "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for the kingdom of Heaven is made of such as these. Verily I say unto you, whosoever does not receive the Kingdom of Heaven like a little child shall never enter therein." If there is any group among us who is truly innocent and not deserving of death, it is the unborn.

You'd be surprised how many of us there are in the Blue States who are opposed to abortion.

I read an interesting statistic today. Did you know that young black women are the most likely demographic group to be pro-life? And older white men are the most likely to be pro-choice. So much for abortion being in the interests of women. Black women in America, the most oppressed of oppressed classes in this country, say they have had enough of white doctors telling black women to kill their babies. In the 1960s, we would have called that genocide. Today, we call it 'choice'.

Surely you can understand the concerns of those of us who are concerned for the protection of babies, be they born or unborn, as much as for adults. It is a tragedy what happened to that poor girl in Ireland who may have been violated. But the problem is not solved by destroying the baby, you only compound it.

Hector, I understand you are pro-life, but that may be blinding you to the procedural problem here, i.e., will a post-Roe world be filled with ugly, "Citizen Ruth"-style fights where pro-life groups and upset family members go to court to try and stop pregnant women from traveling to jurisditions where it may be legal to have an abortion.

The reason this has some importance is because a lot of pro-lifers are responding to pro-choice horror stories about a post-Roe world by saying that they are overblown, that there will still be plenty of states where one can get an abortion, etc.

And the point is, even if we assume that is true (and as I pointed out above, pro-lifers are eliding over their movement's support for national restrictions on abortion), there is a distinct possibility that there will be attempts by the pro-life movement use legislatures and courts to prevent pregnant women from crossing state lines. It has happened in Europe, as I pointed out.

Now, one response to this is "it doesn't matter, protecting fetal life outweighs that". But if that's the response, then I think that pro-lifers are being disingenuous when they are telling Americans that the post-Roe world won't look that much different than the pre-Roe world because abortion will still be legal in many places. I think a lot of Americans would in fact be much more concerned about, say, Mississippi banning abortions if desparate pregnant women had their images and their private family circumstances splashed across the 24-7 news media as they were forced to go to court to establish whether they had a right to travel.

As I said, I understand the argument that none of this outweighs fetal life. But that's different from the argument many pro-lifers (including some in this thread) make, which is that overturning Roe will not cause a serious disruption.

You are also going to have to add in the increased death rates due to women who have illegal abortions.

Look--women have always had ways to deal with unwanted pregnancies. It's not a question as to whether abortion is going to exist or not--it's whether it's going to occur in a clean medical clinic or in some back room with no anaesthesia, no sterile instruments, and no backup if something goes wrong.

For those who think that banning abortion is such a great thing, I suggest you read about the increased death rates in places such as Nicaragua and Guatamala where doctors don't even dare do anything against ectopic pregnancies (which WILL kill the woman 100% of the time) because of the punishments against doctors. I suggest you read up exactly on what the whole abortion system was like in the US before Roe vs. Wade. Read the histories of women who ended up sterile or crippled due to a botched abortion. Look at the pictures of dead women. Then tell your sister/girlfriend/niece that you're perfectly happy with going back to that.

To Hector and all those of you posting from a Christian viewpoint: you realize that you are impinging on other people's religious freedom with your "no abortion at any cost", right? Quoting Jesus to me does not convince me of anything except that you have no respect for my belief system as to when "life begins", my autonomy, and my religion.

Grumpy Realist,

Instead of looking at Nicaragua and Guatemala, let's focus on the United States, where the evidence simply does not back up the notion that legal abortion has improved the health of women by reducing the need for "back-alley" abortions. Mary Calderone, the medical director of Planned Parenthood, estimated that even back in 1960, 90% of illegal abortions were performed safely by doctors. Given that a reversal of Roe would hardly translate into anything approaching a national ban in this country (which was the scenario back in 1960), I have a hard time believing that abortions would be as dangerous as you describe should Roe be reversed.

Your other hysterical assertions about no anaesthesia and such are also not supported by evidence. Due to advances in antibiotics, the number of women dying from illegal abortions dropped dramatically before Roe--from 1,313 in 1940 to 41 in 1972. This drop, and its relation to the use of antibiotics, further suggests that illegal abortions were not of the "back-alley" nature, unless the doctors working in these alleys had access to antibiotics. Why the reversal of Roe would lead to an increase in back-alley abortions, when they were not heavily used even when abortion was completely banned simply doesn't pass the smell test. Let's remember that the reversal of Roe would not even come close to completely banning abortion, so there is even less reason to think that the back-alley scenario would become widespread. The numbers listed above, by the way, are from the National Center for Health Statistics.

In addition, the Centers for Disease Control reported that 39 women died from illegal abortions in 1972, while 24 died from legal abortions that same year. Eleven women died of legal abortion in 2000, so the legalization of abortion has had a statistically insignificant impact on the mortality rate of child-bearing women. Candace Crandall, writing in the 1996 issue of The Women's Quarterly, reported that according to the CDC, there was no noticeable decline in the death rate of women in the 15-34 age group following Roe. If women were really as threatened by illegal abortions as pro-choicers claimed they were, then the death rate for women of child-bearing age should have dropped after 1973. It didn't.

So the evidence simply does not bear out the scare stories told by pro-choicers about large numbers of women resorting to coat hangers and back-alley abortions in a post-Roe world.

Dilan,

Of course people would find it harder to get an abortion, and of course things would change, people's behavior and society's institutions would change dramatically, That would be the whole point of having restrictions. Any law that permitted women in Rhode Island to just hop over the border and get an abortion in Massachusetts would not be a law worth having. And any pro-lifer who tells you that things would be just the same after Roe v. Wade is overturned is trying to deceive you,

From my point of view, of course, that would be a good thing, inasmuch as it decreases the number of abortions and gives us as a society a greater deal of respect for the unborn.


If you look at the richer countries in Latin America like Brazil and Chile, large numbers of women are not dying from illegal abortions. WOmen who seek abortions there go to a sympathetic doctor and the clinic writes it off as a miscarriage. That is very far from ideal of course, but the stories about coat hanger abortions are just that, stories.

Hector replies: "Surely you can understand the concerns of those of us who are concerned for the protection of babies, be they born or unborn, as much as for adults. It is a tragedy what happened to that poor girl in Ireland who may have been violated. But the problem is not solved by destroying the baby, you only compound it. Now you have two victims instead of one, and you compound the poor girl's pain over having been violated with guilt over destroying a child.

I'm not a 'fundie', nor am I a Catholic, nor am I even particularly orthodox in my Christianity. But if we are going to accept anything at all from the Christian tradition, then we need to accept the teachings of Jesus, who said "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for the kingdom of Heaven is made of such as these. Verily I say unto you, whosoever does not receive the Kingdom of Heaven like a little child shall never enter therein." If there is any group among us who is truly innocent and not deserving of death, it is the unborn. "

Let's say your beliefs aren't nuts, Hector, and there actually is a heaven (and a hell as well). In that case the emancipated fetus goes directly to heaven after being aborted. It does not pass go, does not collect 200 mortal sins, does not suffer the risk of hellfire and the worms that die not and all of that crap.

So what's the problem? Meanwhile you're not forcing a raped child to bear her rapist's child.

Win-win!

In fact, Christians should be aborting at a record pace so as to ensure their seed will go to heaven. (No greater love hath a (wo)man than this...)

Since in the Jesoid scheme of things I figure only about 10% go to heaven to sit on the lap of Jeezus, if 35 million abortions have been performed here, that's 31.5 million more cherubs keeping Him company.

I hope he has a big lap.

Good point, Moe. There's actually been apparently some debate over this recently (the question of what happens to aborted babies.) I do agree with the position that some clerics have recently espoused, that aborted babies go straight to heaven. This is similar to the old folk belief in South America that babies who are the victims of passive infanticide, which was traditionally more common than abortion in those countries, go straight to heaven and become little angels (anjinhos).

But your criticism isn't really valid. If we followed that colcusion, then as St. Augustine pointed out, it would make sense for Christians to kill themselves as soon as they left confession, since it would assure that they were dying in a state of grace and would go to heaven. I believe some heretical sects taught that (maybe the Manichaeans?) but I don't agree with it and neither do you. Obviously, since it leads to an absurd conclusion, there must be something wrong with the logic.

God will take care of the aborted babies and make sure that they come to no harm. But he also wants us to allow the babies to enter the world and live their lives and experience all the things that we adults do. The fact that the babies souls will be taken care of, doesn't excuse us from taking care of their earthly lives as well. Taking care of each other's earthly existences, in fact, is the way in which we do the will of God, and prepare ourselves and one another to receive the kingdom. Earthly existence has its own value as well as being a portal to the world beyond.

Hector replies: "But your criticism isn't really valid. If we followed that colcusion, then as St. Augustine pointed out, it would make sense for Christians to kill themselves as soon as they left confession, since it would assure that they were dying in a state of grace and would go to heaven. I believe some heretical sects taught that (maybe the Manichaeans?) but I don't agree with it and neither do you. Obviously, since it leads to an absurd conclusion, there must be something wrong with the logic.

God will take care of the aborted babies and make sure that they come to no harm. But he also wants us to allow the babies to enter the world and live their lives and experience all the things that we adults do. The fact that the babies souls will be taken care of, doesn't excuse us from taking care of their earthly lives as well. Taking care of each other's earthly existences, in fact, is the way in which we do the will of God, and prepare ourselves and one another to receive the kingdom. Earthly existence has its own value as well as being a portal to the world beyond. "

There's nothing wrong with my logic, Hector, even within the weird strictures of Christian "thought." Sure, if they killed themselves after confession, it wouldn't work - because suicide itself is a sin. But if some altruistic fellow killed them right afterwards they'd go right to the Streets of Gold. It could all be a Jesoid Ponzi scheme. Kill, confess, kill, confess, kill, confess... on and on it goes.

For fundies it would be kill, kill, kill, kill, because as long as you've accepted Jeezus, you're already saved.

We're in the realm of absurdity any time we take religion seriously. There is no connection between religion and logic.

No, you're missing a point. The reason that suicide is generally considered a sin stems from the idea that earthly life matters and is not merely a passageway to the heavenly life, as the Albigensians believed. The Albigensians endorsed suicide because they believed that the world was essentially evil, having been created by the Devil. But if earthly life has meaning and value, in addition to the heavenly life, then we should no more untimely tear it away from an unborn baby than from ourselves.

Personally I have some problems with St. Augustine's blanket prohibition and I would say that there are some exceptions- the virgin martyrs were venerated by the people even though they were suicides, as were some of the Maccabean martyrs, so I don't think the prohibition ought to be absolute (in cases of rape, torture, political oppression, altruistic suicide, etc.) But that's neither here nor there. Certainly if suicide is (generally) a sin, then murder must be much more of a sin, it doesn't make any sense to say that you're not allowed to kill oneself, but are allowed to kill a perfectly innocent baby.

Actually I would consider the fact that you and I are having a lucid, civil, and fairly well informed debate about casuistical ethics, would belie your contention that there is no contention between religion and logic. Religion is an eminently reasonable thing, the conversation we are having is the very proof.

And I'm not aware of anyone that holds that you can never lose salvation. Then again, I'm not a 'fundie'/

Hector: "Actually I would consider the fact that you and I are having a lucid, civil, and fairly well informed debate about casuistical ethics, would belie your contention that there is no contention between religion and logic. Religion is an eminently reasonable thing, the conversation we are having is the very proof."

That we can have a logical discussion about religion doesn't mean religion itself is logical, Hector, since the basis for it is not rational or empirical. There's no logical reason to believe in Christianity's sky fairy/furnace fairy dichotomy over a pagan earth/air/fire/water spirits model, for instance. I don't understand the appeal of either one, in the same way I don't understand how anyone can stand the TV show "Scrubs."