With the charming folks at the Westboro Baptist Church taking it on the chin from a Baltimore jury for their "God Hates Fags" picketing of American soldiers' funerals, now seems like a good time to link to this, from the intrepid Louis Theroux:
« The Medium is the Message | Main | Rudy's Secret Weapon » Your Moment (Okay, Hour) of Phelps01 Nov 2007 02:14 pm Comments (19)
Fred Phelps. Satan's gift to lefties. His little sect protested my Catholic parish on Easter Sunday a few years back. They've been living off of lawsuits for some time, it's nice to see them taste their own medicine. 
Kevin Jones: I am a leftie. I am a veteran. I also happen to be an atheist but I don't believe all Baptists are like Phelps and his little band of punks. I am also a member of the Patriot Guard and stood with my brothers (of all political stripes) at the funeral of a young man killed in Iraq earlier this year. Bush's ridiculous war aside, no family should have to endure these despicable creatures. Rest assured I didn't check his political ID to make sure he was worthy of my time and effort. He was an American soldier. That's good enough for me. The next time our country gets in a jam make sure you check the political purity of those defending your ungrateful ass. But, I didn't carry a rifle to defend my leftie friends. I humped a full combat load for all Americans. Left and right. Have nice fucking day asshole.
Phelps is unquestionably an obscene lunatic, but he's hardly a jot worse than flaming bags of dog poop like Falwell (good riddance), Robertson, the Bob Jones gang, and many others have been in recent decades - and those scumbags were all rewarded with positions of power and honor in the GOP hate machine. Robertson and Falwell agreed that 9/11 was part of a punishment from Gawd. What about that is any more rational than the bilge Phelps pumps out?
What about that is any more rational than the bilge Phelps pumps out? Without defending Robertson or Falwell, I think there are two things that make Phelps a lot worse: 1. The ugliness of the language. Whatever Falwell's or Robertson's private beliefs or statements, they didn't/don't use anti-gay slurs in public. Leaving underlying beliefs aside, I think keeping crude and deliberately offensive language out of public discourse is a good thing. That said, I don't give Falwell or Robertson credit for NOT running around saying "God hates fags" (in so many words), because NOT saying stuff like that is literally the least that should be expected of any human being. That Phelps flunks that standard is pretty astounding. 2. The venue. First of all, picketing a funeral is disgusting, unless the funeral itself is some kind of political event (I probably wouldn't agree with folks who picketed at a US president's public funeral, but I'd at least recognize it as a legit form of political expression). Second of all, picketing the funerals of American soldiers, as a protest against gay rights, just doesn't make any sense. Not that it would be "better" if Phelps picketed gay men's funerals, but if the question is one of whether Pat Robertson is "more rational" than Phelps I think that's relevant. Robertson and Falwell certainly said a lot of stupid things about American decadence bringing on 9/11, but you didn't see them picketing firefighters' funerals. Not to defend Falwell or anything, but I think Phelps has managed the neat trick of being significantly worse.
"The next time our country gets in a jam make sure you check the political purity of those defending your ungrateful ass" ??? This is a weird non sequitur. Phelps is often referred to by lazy secularists as representative of Christianity as a whole.
Now, now, let's not quarrel. There is only one subject in American life about which hawks, doves, Conservative Catholics, New Age wiccans, mainline protestants, atheists, and even most evangelical Christians can agree upon: Fred Phelps and his followers are deranged loons. Let's not pass up this beautiful opportunity to achieve solidarity and consensus.
Phelps is often referred to by lazy secularists as representative of Christianity as a whole. Now, that is just a flat-out lie.
JB replies: "Not to defend Falwell or anything, but I think Phelps has managed the neat trick of being significantly worse." Why? Because he says "fags" instead of "homosexuals"? The root pathology is basically the same, and Falwell's "politic" language as opposed to Krazy Kenny's gave Falwell's malignant ass direct access to the White House from 1981-1993 and 2001-until he finally croaked his last repugnant word. Falwell was on the short list of fascist maggots consulted on Supreme Court picks, for instance. Phelps had no influence over anyone, really. Saying he was worse than Falwell just means you're not taking the rest of reality into account.
Woody Bombay quotes and writes: "Phelps is often referred to by lazy secularists as representative of Christianity as a whole. Now, that is just a flat-out lie. " I'm not sure they can help themselves any more, Woody. Their Great Leader, Dumbya, invents straw men like that in every speech. "Some say, some say, blah blah blah." Phelps is in the top 10% of Krazy Khristian Kranks. Ann Coulter and Franklin Graham are less krazy than he is. I hope that clears things up.
Kevin- I thought it would be good for me--someone who, having grown up in an oppressively Catholic country, has extraordinary hostility towards the Catholic Church--to disabuse you of the notion that lazy secularists regard Phelps as representative of Christianity. After all, I, being both secularist and rather lazy--you won't ever find me studying how Baptists differ from Methodists in doctrine--, find Phelps to be significantly more distasteful than Falwell and Robertson, incitements to commit assassination notwithstanding. Furthermore, aside from being hostile to Christianity (and to other religions that posit the existence of a God Whose moral character I find, via the truly haunting problem of evil, quite impeachable), I am the sort of fellow who dislikes being wished a Merry Christmas---I've even worn a yarmulke to prevent that from happening, believe it or not. So I suppose I roughly fit the caricature of choice of secularist-bashers, and yet I have a loving relationship with religious people, by familial ties and by friendship, I find Ross Douthat sensible, thoughtful, and utterly readable, I count Father Drinan as a personal hero, I enjoy the occasional Anthony de Mello short parable, and I cringe at the insinuation that most Christians are like Phelps (or that most Muslims are like bin Laden. mind you).
ML&J, Ann Coulter claims in public to identify as a Christian, but it's hard for me to see her included in a discussion of people like Phelps and F. Graham. She is, as Andrew Sullivan put it, a drag queen impersonating a fascist. It's not clear that she believes in anything except agitprop. Ads for your argument that Phelps is less bad than Falwell or Robertson... I guess your argument must be that Falwell and Robertson are pretty much just Fred Phelps after a shave and a haircut, which makes them more dangerous. That's probably true. But Phelps has to be more personally repulsive than those two. I'd much rather be locked in a room with Pat Robertson than Fred Phelps.
Elvis, I'd rather be locked in a room with both of them. Just let me bring a hockey stick and a roll of quarters in with me. I don't think it's clear what F. Graham or Phelps believe, either, by the way. I suspect they're both in it for reasons that have nothing to do with their public claims.
The question of who is worse than whom depends in part on what we're meaning. Falwell and Robertson have/had a larger following. Therefore whatever malign effect they have is/was larger. However Phelps's actions have hurt most everyone they've contacted and their rhetoric is clearly more extreme. As far as I know neither Falwell nor Robertson claimed the Asian tsunami was a punishment from God or that God Hates America. So it's sort of like asking whether L. Ron Hubbard was worse than Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate or whether Vladimir Putin is worse than the "Chess board killer." It's not an easy comparison to make.
Thomas R. writes: "As far as I know neither Falwell nor Robertson claimed the Asian tsunami was a punishment from God or that God Hates America." Boy, have you nor been paying attention. Falwell the Malign was on Robertson's comedy hour and he said 9/11 was a punishment from gawd because of America's immorality. Pat the Idiot agreed with him, though he later attempted to backtrack. Look it up already before you bother to respond. The comment is in perfect alignment with numerous moronic claims both worthless scumbags made/have made during their pointless and evil careers. Comparing a crank and a nuisance like Phelps to national poisons like Falwell and Robertson is like comparing a jaywalker to a serial rapist. Yet Robertson and Falwell have/had the ears of the White House. That this fact doesn't disgust more than 10% of Republicans is just one reason I use the term "Repiglican."
I know that, but it's not the same as saying God hates America. It's terrible, but saying God punishes America or Australia or France is not the same as saying God hates a nation. If I stated that my neighbor assaulted a college student it may or may not mean he will consistently do so or hates that student.
Oh, okay, Thomas. You're right, killing thousands of people and displacing many more is just Gawd's Special Kind Of Luv. Sheesh. My mistake was not going insane before commenting so that I could approach the matter from a religious perspective.
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Well, they're definitely going to heaven.
Posted by southpaw | November 1, 2007 5:15 PM