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Advice For the GOP Field

18 Dec 2007 12:12 pm

Over the weekend, I suggested that Rudy Giuliani needed to make an early-state statement, ideally by finishing ahead of an Iowa-weakened Mitt Romney in New Hampshire, to have any chance of winning the nomination. Naturally, yesterday came news that Team Rudy is scaling down its ad buy in New Hampshire, effectively conceding first and second place to Romney and McCain. With this sterling track record of having GOP candidates follow my advice, I thought I’d offer my counsel to the rest of the field – free of charge.

Mike Huckabee: Pivot, dammit, pivot! You’ve come a long way in a short time, but consolidating the evangelical vote alone isn’t going to get you the nomination, and you’re in danger of being pigeonholed as the candidate of Christian-Right identity politics. You’ve advanced two “Huckabee for President” narratives so far: In one, you’re running for pastor-in-chief; in the other, you’re the populist candidate, the “Main Street” Republican fighting for the interests of the middle class against the Beltway elite and the “Wall Street” conservatives. The first narrative has served its purpose; now you need to pivot toward the second - less "Christian leader," more working-class underdog - and you need to put some meat on its bones. Your turn on immigration, however clumsily executed, was a decent start, but on that topic you’re just me-tooing the other guys; you need to find some issue, besides abortion and gay marriage, where you can draw contrasts with the GOP establishment that you’re taking on, and the Fair Tax isn’t it. Think health care, think family-friendly tax reform, think corporate welfare ... and if you start getting accused of “class warfare,” rather than “religious warfare,” you're probably hitting the sweet spot.

Mitt Romney: Don’t panic: You’re doing as well as can be expected, given that nobody seems to really like you. Huckabee’s surge has created an opening for you to spin a strong second place in Iowa as a victory, and you have a good cushion in New Hampshire; if you win there, you’re going to be the guy the conservative establishment rallies around to fend off the Man from Hope, and the nomination is probably yours too lose. In Iowa and beyond, you need to keep Huckabee from breaking out of his current twenty-five percent ceiling, and you aren’t doing a bad job of it: Attacking him on crime and illegal immigration is smart; so is co-opting any “Main Street” momentum he tries to generate (see above) by talking about middle-class economic anxieties yourself; so is presenting yourself as the leader of an ecumenical (as opposed to a sectarian) religious right. Arguably your biggest short-term danger at the moment is the prospect of a media-abetted McCain surge in New Hampshire, but as long as you’ve got a double-digit lead you should keep handling the Senator with kid gloves. You’ve got a chance to cruise to an easy New Hampshire win, which is a consummation devoutly to be wished. Until that NH lead starts to shrink, just stay cool; in a topsy-turvy race, you might still have the catbird seat.

John McCain: You have about fifteen points to make up in New Hampshire, and three rivals you can plausibly steal votes from – Rudy, Romney and Ron Paul. (You've already seemingly taken all of Fred Thompson's NH voters.) The Lieberman endorsement puts you in a good position to sweep up more national-security voters from a fading Rudy, and while you won’t win Paul’s anti-war voters, your stands on pork and earmarks and torture give you the hope of sweeping some wavering libertarians from his camp into yours. The key, though, is too bring Romney’s numbers down. If he gets thirty-five to forty percent of the vote, you probably can’t win the state, so at some point soon (maybe after Iowa, though that might be too late) you’ll need to hit him where he’s vulnerable and you aren’t, which means foreign-policy experience and flip-flopping. Your anti-Romney message should boil to two simple points: Mitt Romney doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and he doesn’t believe what he’s saying. Get enough New Hampshirites to buy it, and you might win.

Fred Thompson: It’s simple: All you need to do is win back a substantial chunk of the Bubba voters you lost to Mike Huckabee and win over a chunk of the NR-reading, “Reagan conservative” voters you never managed to swipe from from Mitt Romney, add them to your current 10 percent or so, and you’re off to the races. You’ve got the right message to do it: You’re a consistent conservative up against a slew of flip-floppers and heretics, and you've got plenty of fodder to attack every single one of your rivals. But you’ve been selling this message for six months, and nobody’s buying. So my advice is simple: Learn how to actually, you know, campaign for the nomination that a lot of conservatives were ready to hand to you on a silver platter, and maybe it can still be yours. (Though I doubt it.)

Ron Paul: See my previous post.

Comments (76)

Fred Thompson is no longer a contender. He's a squib fart in this GOP field of turds.

Shorter Ross: We Christianists are f-ed. I wonder if the libertarians will have me? I'll talk to Megan.

Well done. The Huckaboom was interesting to watch. Very instructive, but too bad for him about 2 weeks too soon. I am picking up that Romney might even be able to block and tackle his way to 1st in Iowa. (People seem to forget it is a caucus not an election)

All of a sudden Iowa has gone from a foregone conclusion worth absolutely nothing to Romney to what is potentially the whole enchilada but not a death sentence. THat is a much better deal actually for Romney than he had 6 weeks ago. I can't believe Huck got this far being such a liberal. What is up with Arkansas? Glad I don't live there, must have been torture for true conservatives the last 10 years.

...and you’re in danger of being pigeonholed as the candidate of Christian-Right identity politics.

Gee, I wonder why.

Good stuff, Ross. I think this sums things up on the Republican side really well. And I got a genuine chuckle out of your opening line for Mitt.

How could Mitt forget that he used to party with abortionists?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/12/romney-attended.html

I love seeing a stinking torture-loving Repiglican get outed with pictorial evidence!

Coming up next - documented proof of Dick Cheney's lesbian snuff film collection.

Did Al Gore or Dick Gephardt get slammed this hard for doing a U-turn on abortion? I don't believe they did. Only Republicans aren't allowed to do a 180 on this sacred-cow issue. And then in only one direction.

It's interesting that, while the "Repiglicans", as LMJ insists on calling them, regularly field presidential contenders who depart from party orthodoxy on abortion. The Democrats never, ever, ever do. In order to be even a semi-credible national candidate (I'm talking about you Dennis Kucinich), Democrats must renounce even the merest semblence of pro-life sentiment.

The supposedly rigid and intolerant GOP impose no such requirement.

That's probably because the corporatised, slaves to big business, scum bag, conservative MSM are all on the Republican side and....

Oh wait, that doesn't explain it. Then again, I'm probably wasting my time. MLJ doesn't come here for an argument. He doesn't have any arguments; just mindless abuse.

Tom O'Gorman writes: "Did Al Gore or Dick Gephardt get slammed this hard for doing a U-turn on abortion? I don't believe they did. Only Republicans aren't allowed to do a 180 on this sacred-cow issue. And then in only one direction."

That's because Repiglicans won't vote for a pro-choice candidate. The "slamming" is being done by them, as is the "not allowing." I'm just laughing at Mitt's discomfort.

Gore and Gephardt actually took quite a bit of flak on the issue during their failed primary runs.

Remind me, though, who the last pro-choice major Repiglican candidate was. Rudy doesn't count, since he's promised to toe the lifer line.

Rudy certainly counts. He says he's pro-choice, won't favor a right to life amendment to the Constitution, won't even say that he sees Roe vs Wade as wrongly decided.

Sure, he says that he 'hates abortion.' So he's personally against it, but will fight to keep it legal. By MoeLarryAndJesus's standard, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy are pro-lifers!

Let's see when running for the Senate in liberal MA Romney claims he is pro-choice and gives money to Planned Parenthood.....then while running for the Republican presidential nomination he has a "come to Jesus" moment and reverses course.....so explain to me why I should trust anything he says today when who knows what the political winds will require tomorrow?

Huckabee:

"you’re in danger of being pigeonholed as the candidate of Christian-Right identity politics."

LOL!! Oh I think Huck's gone way past the pigeonhole and is firmly in Iranian mullah territory.

I've read on so many blogs that if Huck gets the nod, they are leaving the party. Actually heard someone say that not only will they leave the party they will join Kierkegaard in an all out war on Christendom!!

Huckabee has turned the GOP primary into a Sunni/Shiite hate spewing doctrinal war.

Huckabee is bad for the GOP, bad for evangelicals and bad for America.

Plus, I want him out just based on that I'm sick of his name and all of its manifestations!!!

Huckabee is the strongest, wisest, and most charismatic leader in world history. All 7,000 years of it.

Yawn. Mitt/Planned Parenthood is an old story, not only in that this was 13 years ago but this has been asked often of Mitt on the campaign trail & in the debates.

Mitt has admitted that he was wrong to hold the view he did in 1994. He has said it loudly and often!

Maybe if he slits his wrists and writes in blood "I was wrong" this will satisfy the unsatisfiable.

Or perhaps they should buy some ear wax remover.

Gyrd flat-out lies: "Rudy certainly counts. He says he's pro-choice, won't favor a right to life amendment to the Constitution, won't even say that he sees Roe vs Wade as wrongly decided.

Sure, he says that he 'hates abortion.' So he's personally against it, but will fight to keep it legal."

Rudy has promised to appoint justices to the SC like Scalia and Thomas. He has made this promise specifically to lifer maggots of the furthest reaches of the wingnut population.

If that sounds like "will fight to keep it legal" to Gyrd, then I guess he also thinks Pavarotti sounded just like Edie Brickell.

sherylromney, Tagg's wife (or one of them) writes: "Yawn. Mitt/Planned Parenthood is an old story, not only in that this was 13 years ago but this has been asked often of Mitt on the campaign trail & in the debates."

Sorry, Ms. Romney. That your mom-in-law wrote a check to Planned Parenthood was long known. That Mitt was at the fundraiser with her was not. But of course you believe he "forgot."

Yawn again. He was pro-choice in 1994 so being at a PP fundraiser is negligible.

I guess the “I was wrong” in blood will not suffice. I guess he’ll have to bomb an abortion clinic for you to believe he’s changed his position.

Jasper, LOL. You forgot though that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Huckabee supporters hope his election will usher in the millennium, a 1000 years of Christmas.

Sheryl - If abortion was the only issue on which Multiple Choice Mitt had "changed his mind" you might have a point, but the examples of his shifts are numerous so one tends to be very skeptical of any positions he takes now for who knows what he will say tomorrow....

MLAJ flat out can't perceive reality.

He asks when was the last time the GOP had a major pro-choice candidate for the nomination. But Rudy doesn't count as pro-choice because... why?

lifers: Rudy, are you an originalist?
Rudy: Sure am!
lifers: so you're against Roe vs Wade?
Rudy: Did I mention I'll appoint conservative justices?

MLAJ: Aha! Rudy is pro-life!
Gyrd: Yeah, in the same way Democrats who support Roe are pro-life... the not meaningful way.

All of a sudden Iowa has gone from a foregone conclusion worth absolutely nothing to Romney to what is potentially the whole enchilada but not a death sentence. THat is a much better deal actually for Romney than he had 6 weeks ago.

It's really, really weird how the rise of Huckabee has helped Romney so much and hurt Giuliani, which is exactly the opposite of what it was supposed to do. Romney might very well look back six months from now and see Huckabee as his saving grace.

I like Mitt and I'm voting for him because I think the biggest issue facing the US is the global economy.

Mitt's background and his brilliant busniess acumen is the best investment this country can make for growing our economic future. He is also on solid footing with me on most of the other issues.

That said, if Mitt doesn't get the nod, I will vote for Fred or Rudy.

I won't vote for McCain because I disagree with too much of his record.

I'm leaving the party if Huck is nominated and will actively persuade as many Republicans I can to do the same.

The devastating exposure of Mitt Romney by Stephen Benson (see the internet), the grandson of the late Ezra Taft Benson who was the so called prophet in Mormonism a few years ago is sufficient reason to demonstrate why Romney will not win the nomination far less the Presidency.

Pigpile: Did Huckabee Actually Lose 100 Pounds Through The Power of Christ Or The Power of a Surgeon's Scalpel?

I was wary about posting this because it seems like piling on over something petty.

But:

This is persuasive. Seems a bit nutty because such evidence is amassed to prove something so minor, but... I'm buying it. Particularly that bit about the hernia.

Dan Riehl has a quick excerpt if you don't want to dig into the details.

I was debating putting this up with Dave in Texas. Here's the scary-professional news judgment analysis that goes on behind the scenes:

is this worth posting?
[Link to Riehl.]
or is it just piling on?

Dave: reading it now
wow. kinda big deal, but feels like piling on

...

me: maybe I can get someone else to post it to take the hit.
people are pissed at gabriel anyway


Thanks to jdub for sending that, too.

Speaking of Fat: I don't know why I didn't weigh in on the Jennifer Love Hewitt fatography controversy.

Look, she's not fat. She's got a few fun-pounds goin' on there. Nothing a month-long coke binge couldn't fix.

And I don't know if it has to be fixed. I mean, come on. I'm getting tired of the claim that men oppress women with "impossible standards of beauty" when the only people who are saying she's fat are 1, chicks who want to take her down a notch, 2, super-gay dudes (normal gay dudes would still hit that shit for the anecdote), and 3, guys like StudMan69 who dress up their virginity as "higher standards."

More Huckster: He's above demeaning Romney for his religion. Kinda sorta:

Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks in an upcoming article, ''Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?''
The article, to be published in Sunday's New York Times Magazine, says Huckabee asked the question after saying he believes Mormonism is a religion but doesn't know much about it. His rival Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, is a member of the Mormon church, which is known officially as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The authoritative Encyclopedia of Mormonism, published in 1992, does not refer to Jesus and Satan as brothers. It speaks of Jesus as the son of God and of Satan as a fallen angel, which is a Biblical account.

A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Huckabee's question is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine.

''We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all,'' said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah. ''That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for.''

Romney did not respond to a request for comment.

Earlier this month in Iowa, Huckabee wouldn't say whether he thought Mormonism — rival Romney's religion — was a cult.


Why Not? Okay, JackM. tipped this old Christmas card from the Huckabee family.

I wasn't going to post it, because I didn't want to pile on, but I guess that ship has sailed.

Look, I'm just saying: I don't know if this family, particularly the boys, strikes me as being keen on natural weight loss.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.


http://ace.mu.nu/archives/249077.php

FRED THOMPSON is the best person to lead this country. He is a true conservative and has been his entire life. All one has to do is check his record to see this.

During my time in the Army as an Intelligence Analyst, I served under both Presidents Carter and Reagan (as my commanders in chief). Without argument, President Reagan was the best commander-in-chief a military person could ever have served under. Fred Thompson possesses the same qualities and vision as President Reagan in that he is strong on national defense and sees a dire need to secure our borders and control immigration.

I can think of no better person to lead this country and fix the problems we have. He is the only candidate from either party who has specific and detailed plans on border security and immigration reform; revitalization of America's armed forces; saving and protecting Social Security; and tax relief and economic growth. These are detailed on his Web site at www.fred08.com. I challenge you to find any other candidate who has laid out specific plans to fix anything.

Fred Thompson has published his first principles, some of which are mentioned above. In addition to those, he strongly believes in individual liberty, personal responsibility, limited government, federalism, traditional American values, the rule of law and is a strong proponent of the Second Amendment -- all concepts established during the birth of our country and documented in our Constitution.

Again, try to find any candidate who has laid out their plans to "fix" this country. You will find they all speak in vague and abstract terms on their plans.

For those who have heard Fred Thompson speak, you will usually hear him say that the Fred Thompson you see today is the same Fred Thompson you saw yesterday and is the same Fred Thompson you will see tomorrow. He stands by his principles and values and doesn't shift his positions based on polls or public opinion; in other words, he doesn't say what the voters want to hear just to get elected, but remains steadfast on his views and convictions.

During his time in the Senate he focused on three areas: to lower taxes, strengthen national security and expose waste in the federal government. Fred Thompson has foreign policy experience, having served as member of the Senate Foreign Relations and Senate Intelligence committees.

As chairman of the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, he opened the investigation in 1997 on the Chinese government's attempt to influence American policies and elections, and this investigation identified connections with the Clinton administration (documented in the committee's report).

As a member of the Finance Committee, he worked tirelessly to enact three major tax-cut bills. Fred Thompson remains steadfast and even though a person may not agree with all his views and he understands some may disagree with him, you can count on him to be consistent and unwavering.

Don't be fooled by his laid back approach and what critics call his "laziness." As a former assistant U.S. attorney, he earned a reputation as a tough prosecutor and he possesses the toughness this country needs in order to tackle today's and tomorrow's issues.

I ask that you take a hard look at what this country needs, then take a hard look at all the other candidates' views, policies, their records and their track record on consistency. Fred Thompson possesses integrity, loyalty, commitment, energy and decisiveness, all traits of an effective leader, and will emerge as the best person to take this country boldly forward.

Why does anyone bother to respond to a bottom-feeding, wind-up artist with nothing to contribute, which charitably sums up MoeLarryAndJesus?

I definately agree with sheryl, the biggest problem we has is future economics. Romney is a financial genious and will pull us out. I dont think huck or rudy or mccain even comes close.

Romney's religion will not effect his presidency. The LDS chuch has a lot of members in the govermnet like Sen. Reid, and Sen. Hatch, both have said they have NEVER been influenced by the leaders in the church.

This is a Moment of Truth election for the Republican Party (of which I used to be a member. Currently a DLC Democrat.)

The differences between the Social Conservatives and the Fiscal conservatives that were already brewing when I was in the GOP are starting to come to a head. This is entirely unsurprising to those who pay attention to the internal dynamics of the GOP. Now is time for the GOP to answer its central question... which is the more important demographic, Evangelicals, or Business?

Social Conservatism and Fiscal Conservatism are entirely incompatible ideologies. Social conservatism is the product of a set of theological "first principles", that is, assumptions about the rightness and wrongness of behavior. For Social Conservative ideology, things are right simply because they are RIGHT. God commanded it, this is the way people ought to behave, and they shall use the power of the government to make people behave that way (or prohibit the behaviors they don't like).

Fiscal Conservatism, on the other hand, is not so overly concerned with things like "moral degredation" or tradition. Fiscal Conservatism is about getting the best outcomes out of the empirical world, its about the bottom line. Its also about keeping government out of our lives so that private citizens can help the market do its work.

Huckabee isn't an anomaly, Huckabee is the logical conclusion of Social Conservatism, a movement that actually DOES wish to use government to engineer society (no more gays, no more abortion). The far more logical ally for Social Conservatives is Fiscal Liberals, who wish to use government to engineer our society on the economic side.

Similarly, Fiscal Conservatives and their mistrust of government in one's pocketbook are more logical allies for Social Liberals and their mistrust of government in their personal decisions.

This could be the first tremor in a series of realignment elections. With business increasingly investing in the Democratic Party, and Huckabee leading a wave of Evangelical Populism, it may be only a generation or so before the parties each finally break the Faustian bargains they struck to form their coalitions and realign into more natural ideological alliances.

I see. Romney was "personally pro-life" at the time, but he and his wife just wandered into a fundraiser for abortion providers, and figured, "Hey, what the heck, let's give 'em some money!" Of course, the circumstances of that event were so scarring, so searing, that they burned a little hole in Romney's brain where his memories of it used to be.

I guess, though, when you can spend $7 gazillion to come in 2nd in Iowa, a coupla hundred bucks for Planned Parenthood counts as pocket change.

Huck is not as fixated on religion as you think, not after being a governor for 13 years. He has a three stage rocket going here and by introducing faith into the campaign he has sucessfully used his first stage to win first or second in Iowa and then hope for better in SC and Florida. The other two stages are coming and you mention the second, appealing to the populist movement, both Democrats and Republicans who are not convinced it is a wonderful thing to see our jobs get shipped to other nations. The third stage is to appear more mainstream than the three candidates he will face in the general election, Obama for the Democrats, and Paul as an independent, and Bloomberg as another independent.

Gyrd replies: "MLAJ flat out can't perceive reality.

He asks when was the last time the GOP had a major pro-choice candidate for the nomination. But Rudy doesn't count as pro-choice because... why?"

He doesn't count as pro-choice because he's already promised all of his Repiglican lifer pals that he'll appoint judges who'll punt Roe v. Wade into the Potomac, you silly child.

You probably think Dick Cheney is "pro-gay" because he hasn't strangled his lesbian daughter... yet.

Let me guess, though - you're backing Rudy because he's promised to let you screen some torture videos at your swing parties after he gets elected.

K Dub writes: "I see. Romney was "personally pro-life" at the time, but he and his wife just wandered into a fundraiser for abortion providers, and figured, "Hey, what the heck, let's give 'em some money!" Of course, the circumstances of that event were so scarring, so searing, that they burned a little hole in Romney's brain where his memories of it used to be."

Or maybe he just got totally shitfaced at the party and suffered a blackout. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Fiscal Conservatives will never align with the Democrats who they will align with is the libertarians. You are thinking that the Democrats are social liberals when they are really socialists and communists. The true social liberals are libertarians who also happen to be fiscal liberals. The evangelicals or Social conservatives actually align more with the Constitution Party. But if the the fiscal conservatives break from the GOP, the GOP will be destroyed and you will have the rise of a true third party - the libertarians. I don't think this is a good thing since the libertarians are pro open border and anti-foreign policy but they are better than the Democrats or a GOP liberal Theocracy under Huckabee.

Conservative elites sketch a quick caricature of Huckabee based on their own prejudices and then criticize it.

But I trust the huge political talent Huckabee has shown in the debates. He's winning there because people really do like him: he's simply better than the other candidates in that very important arena.

So, I say, build our team around him for the general election. Then put the ball in his hands and let him win the game.

Ed J writes: "I say, build our team around him for the general election. Then put the ball in his hands and let him win the game."

These days the Republican Party is playing without helmets.

Mike Huckabee = Worst GOP Candidate (click on my name for more)

Background:

Age: 52

Education:
- Ordained to ministry Southern Baptist Convention, 1974
- B.A. Religion, Ouachita Baptist University, 1976

Military Experience:
- None

Political Experience:
- Lt. Governor of Arkansas, 1993-1996
- Governor of Arkansas, 1996-2007

Religion:
- Baptist

- Huckabee Signed '98 Ad Urging Women to 'Graciously Submit' to Husbands

- Immediately upon taking office he signed a sales tax hike in 1996
- He raised taxes on gasoline in 1999
- He supported an internet sales tax in 2001
- He created a $5.25 per day bed-tax on private nursing home patients in 2001
- He publicly opposed the repeal of a sales tax on groceries and medicine in 2002
- He proposed another sales take hike in 2002 to fund education improvements
- He raised taxes on cigarettes in 2003
- He opposed a congressional measure to ban internet taxes in 2003
- He allowed a 17% sales tax increase to become law in 2004
- He increased taxes in the state by more than Bill Clinton did
- He increased state spending 65.3% from 1996 to 2004
- The number of state government workers rose 20% during his tenure
- Governor Huckabee refused to pledge not to raise taxes if elected President

- Overall, Huckabee’s substantial tax hikes far surpassed his modest tax cuts, with the average tax burden increasing by a whopping 47% over his tenure.

- Huckabee is the only Republican candidate to support the economy crippling Cap and Trade CO2 Legislation, Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) Regulation and Renewable Energy Standards

- Huckabee supported instate tuition for illegal aliens

ect...

No I am sorry once people learn about the REAL Mike Huckabee he will be done. I for one will drop the GOP and vote independent if the Huckster gets the nomination and I know plenty of other fiscal conservatives who will too.

Yes, Mike Huckabee is a real conservative. All the far-left attacks him only help him even more. The more the secular media attacks him, the better he'll do. In 2004, Bush crushed Kerry in the election, even though the whole liberal media-university elite was against him. Its like "did the majority of people you know vote for Bush in 2004? the majority of Americans did."
Actually watch the debates, I don't remember him saying 'that the earth was 6,000 years old.' Look on youtube, search for Huckabee and evolution, you'll see the clip. He just says he wasn't there. Only about 13% of adult Americans accept evolution as officially taught, and Huckabee isn't one of them. President Bush spoke favorably of intelligent design - I didn't see all the conservatives defecting to John Kerry and Hillary Clinton. Yes, that tiny minority of people that believe "official evolution" spend a lot of time online, but so do pornography addicts.

I hope when the primary is over we can stop comparing religous doctrine. Move on people respect differences, work together. Look for common ground. Nobody changes religon because of the POTUS. Don't feel like your religon threatened. When Eisenhower was president I doubt there was a huge increase in Jehovah Witnesses. Just chill.

Ross,
Unlike the others, Thompson is actually taking your advice and doing what you suggested! How about showing a little faith in Fred and your own words of wisdom? As you have clearly shown, there really is no reason he can't win in Iowa and the states that follow.

moelarryandjesus' wikipedia user talk page(LOL!!!):
"Sorry ML&J, but I can see at least four other admins who have looked this over or handled a request from you to be unblocked under this name, and I can't just unblock you. The block wasn't for your username (personally, I think it's fine), it was for your deliberate and knowing trolling."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MoeLarryAndJesus

baxter, you should have quoted my favorite line from that particular page - "I'm not sure about your choice of new username - User:NoBushpigsPlease. Given that this might be seen as a political comment (i.e. George Bush) and that Bushpigs is a slang term for ugly women, I think that one could get you into trouble with that one as well."

Wikipedia is a very weird place.

I look forward to seeing President Guiliani being sworn in on a wintry January day.

I suspect lisa posts while drunk.

Romney is status quo, and after 8 years of Bush ending up with a 38% approval rating, expensive war, defecits, and a housing mess, the country will not be looking too much at another rich republican with a business background to save the day. Giving them Romney as the nominee will make their job even that much easier! Romney gets 35% coz conservatives stay home. We won't mention the m word.

I like Moe, Larry and Curly much better. They had way more intellect and charm.

"Huckabee Signed '98 Ad Urging Women to 'Graciously Submit' to Husbands"

I'm not a Huckabee fan at all but you're leaving out the most important part. Wives were urged to submit to a husband who is a "servant leader".

A servant leader is someone whose goal is to serve the people he is leading and put their needs ahead of his own even when that involves self-sacrifice. It is the direct opposite of a leader who uses his position to gather power to himself or lord it over his underlings.

From the bible (Mark 10:42-45)
"You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:42-45)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servant_leadership

"Unlike leadership approaches with a top-down hierarchical style, Servant Leadership instead emphasizes collaboration, trust, empathy, and the ethical use of power. At heart, the individual is a servant first, making the conscious decision to lead in order to better serve others, not to increase their own power. The objective is to enhance the growth of individuals in the organization and increase teamwork and personal involvement."

The husband is supposed to put the family's needs ahead of his own even to the point of self-sacrifice. The wife, from a religious point of view, is supposed to submit to that. She isn't to be doing the sacrificing herself or trying to save the husband from himself whenever a little self-sacrifice is called for.

Is there anyone here who is seriously going to defend the idea that wives should submit to their husbands?

"Mitt has admitted that he was wrong to hold the view he did in 1994. He has said it loudly and often!"

The only problem with your logic is that this is not the only issue that he "miraculously" changed in order to pander to whichever group of voters he needed. The guy has flipped on immigration, gay rights, gun laws, and abortion, just to name a few. Now if it was just one issue, one time, I can see that being very believable. But when the guy's views change like the direction of the wind, then it starts to become plain dishonest. I really don't know how anyone can trust that the guy means what he says.

Lisa replies: "I like Moe, Larry and Curly much better. They had way more intellect and charm."

That explains why you like Rudy G, too. He's another slapstick comedian.

Advice for the GOP field: Don't listen to Ross. He was defeated for sergeant-at-arms in the fourth grade and hasn't run for anything since.

I think Ron Paul is the only candidate who can unify the Republican social and fiscal conservatives.

Fiscally, no one in this race is more fiscally conservative than Ron Paul.

Socially, Ron Paul is staunchly pro-life and a long timer Baptist who believes that faith is something you keep in your heart, not on your sleeve. He follows St. Francis' slogan, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words only when necessary." He lets his actions, not empty words, speak for his faith.

No one else in this race can unite these two factions of the Republican party.

Rudy: fails on social
Mitt: flip flopped on social issues
McCain: sketchy on social issues
Huckabee: not fiscally conservative at all
Thompson: worked with PP, weak socially

"Fiscally, no one in this race is more fiscally conservative than Ron Paul."

Is it just me or is that truly funny?

Heh. Actually, I'm a Romney fan. As such, no swinging parties for me.

MLAJ -- this gets back to your (willful?) problem with recognizing reality.

Rudy has emphatically not promised to appoint judges who will overturn Roe. Find a link where Rudy says Roe should go, or that he thinks judges he appoints will overturn Roe, or that he thinks Roe was wrongly decided. You can't.

You're being a literalist fool, Gyrd. If elected, Rudy will appoint justices who will vote to overturn Roe v Wade. He's made that promise to the Federalist Society and Pat Robertson in language they understand.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/14/opinion/edgiuliani.php

Obviously Rudy's a damn weasel who wants to have it both ways, and he's chosen a different weasel-way than Romney has - but since he would, of course, want to be re-elected, he'll keep his promise to the wackaloons. It's not like he has any real principles.

Is there anyone here who is seriously going to defend the idea that wives should submit to their husbands?

Well, sure. I'm game, Not out of context, mind, but I certainly don't think it was nonsense or bad advice in Ephesians 5, which is still in my (Catholic, admittedly, perhaps others have changed this?) Bible.

A misspelled TMoC speaks out for bondage fantasies:

"I certainly don't think it was nonsense or bad advice in Ephesians 5, which is still in my (Catholic, admittedly, perhaps others have changed this?) Bible."

Those of us who view our wives as full-fledged human beings and equals think that all of this SuperChristian nonsense about "submitting wives" has something to do with a nasty case of psychological impotence and (most likely) sexual incompetence.

But what can one expect from people who think women who don't have sex are superior to those who do?

Something for registered Republicans to remember... the rest of us will get to vote in Nov., so choose your guy wisely. I am not a Republican, but I will vote for Huckabee if he is nominated. No promises on the other guys.

Huck says a lot of things that transcend party politics, no matter how the GOP Establishment try to paint him into the margins. Rod Dreher's Dec 19 Op piece speaks volumes:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/12/mike_huckabees_legacy.html

I'm guessing Moe hasn't read Ephesians 5. Two points: earlier in the same chapter, the advice is given, in general, for Christians to "submit to each other." There are meanings of submission other than sexual. The instruction to wives is embedded in a profound, strange, rich, and mysterious analogy of the love of spouses to the mystical union of the Church as bride of Christ. One might notice the advice to men shortly after -- to sacrifice and love their wives as they love their own bodies. No selfish male-privilege is present here, though taking parts out of context (as usual with scripture) can give you most anything you want.

More generally, the Christian ideal is based on love and sacrifice, where "what's best for me, not you" is never the right question to ask, and especially not in intimate relationships. I suspect Moe subscribes to an "equality" of equal selfishness and getting out when the getting's good.

TMoC replies: "I'm guessing Moe hasn't read Ephesians 5. Two points: earlier in the same chapter, the advice is given, in general, for Christians to "submit to each other." There are meanings of submission other than sexual. The instruction to wives is embedded in a profound, strange, rich, and mysterious analogy of the love of spouses to the mystical union of the Church as bride of Christ. One might notice the advice to men shortly after -- to sacrifice and love their wives as they love their own bodies. No selfish male-privilege is present here, though taking parts out of context (as usual with scripture) can give you most anything you want."

As usual your guess is wrong, TMoC, but then you knew that.

Ephesians 5 quite explicitly tells women to submit to their husbands, and of course contains nothing saying men should submit to their wives in return. And since this is Paul talking, who in 1 Corinthians advises the little women to keep their mouths shut in church, I would say that "selfish male-privilege" is very much a part of your precious frigging scripture.

Of course I don't think Paul had much use for women in general, if you know what I mean and I think you do.

Ah yes. Moe's arguments, even against the dead, seldom come to more than a ten year old saying "gosh, Wally, you're GAY."

I was actually interested in talking to Hector about this. You're not worth the time, Moe. After the literature thread I briefly decided otherwise, but that was a mistake. You have enough content to make it tempting to reply, but there's too little of any value to make it sensible to respond. Moe's a troll -- presumably if we simply ignore he'll go away.

It's a shame, he's not really an idiot, or incapable of making an argument.

Ephesians 5 doesn't tell men to submit to their wives, it tells them to give up their lives for their wives, as Christ gave up his life for his Church.

I think its exhortation to men is stronger than it is to women: it is basically saying die for your wife, man.

Re: Ron Paul's fiscal conservatism, I don't see why you think my earlier statement is funny, MLJ. He is the most fiscally conservative out of all the candidates in the race. He's the only one who's proposed real, significant cuts in the size of government.

RonPaul -- I think it was the construction "Fiscally, no one in this race is more fiscally conservative" -- which is sort of funny. I mean, could you say "Socially, no one in this race is more fiscally conservative"?

TMoC replies: "Ah yes. Moe's arguments, even against the dead, seldom come to more than a ten year old saying "gosh, Wally, you're GAY.""

Well, no - I referenced another one of Paul's writings to support my argument that there certainly is a misogynist stench to his writings. It's hardly a novel observation. As for his sexuality, I think he was a sadist primarily, and highly repressed. There may be ten year olds who would come to similar conclusions, but I'm guessing there are of them who do, who do, who do believe in demons.

TMoC can't live without me: "RonPaul -- I think it was the construction "Fiscally, no one in this race is more fiscally conservative" -- which is sort of funny."

Yes, it is.

As for Paul's fiscal conservatism, I'd say he's actually radically conservative in his beliefs. Dismantling the Fed? Short of a nuclear holocaust or a worldwide financial collapse, nothing of the sort is going to happen. I'm not sure how Paul could put a functioning administration together, let alone work with Congress. His ideas are interesting on a theoretical level, but he's not going to be able to timeshift the national financial structure back 200 years.

Practically speaking his philosophy is not practical.

"I'm guessing there are of them who do, who do, who do believe in demons."

That should read "more of them." By the Holy Foreskin, I hate when I do that!

Hi, Marquis, I didn't realize you had responded to my question. I appreciate your response.

Here's what I think. The advice from Colossians (that's the book that I was reading with a Bible study group a couple weeks ago which contains similar advice) like the rest of the New Testament, contains a general message for all ages, but packaged in a specific message that was relevant and appropriate to a patriarchal age. It's akin to the advice in the same book where St. Paul tells slaves to be obedient to their masters.

The message WE should take from this book, as 21st century moderns who believe neither in slavery nor (I would assume) in patriarchy, is that there is virtue and glory in obedience and submission as well as in command and control. Some of us are called to obey, in general, and others are generally called to command, and for any one of us there are times in our lives where we may be called to do each one. We should know that we are serving God and fulfilling our own deepest nature in obeying as much as in commanding. This is the deeper truth that I get from St. Paul's commandment. St. Paul was expressing this deep truth in the only way that a patriarchal and slaveholding age could understand it.

Where I would differ from you, I think, is that I don't think that submission anymore needs to be the specific role of women or wives, or for that matter of slaves. I think that in an egalitarian age, submission should be understood as something that may be required of any one of us, depending on the time and circumstances, not from women in particular. There may be some women who are happiest in submitting to their husbands, and there may be some husbands who are happier in submitting to their wives. Speaking personally, I know enough of my character to know that I would make a fairly poor leader or commander. I'm not married now, but I would imagine that when I am, I would be more on the submissive side vis-a-vis my wife. I would be fairly happy to defer to my future beloved in anything that does not violate my conscience, and I would in no wise ask her to 'submit' to me.

As a more specific challenge, Marquis, do you believe that in general husbands ought to exert the leadership role, and wives the obedient role, in marriages?

If not, then I have nothing to argue with you about.

It's interesting how some people are eager to make the claim, on exactly zero evidence, that Christ, St. Paul and other significant religious figures were gay. But when it comes to the rogues' gallery of historical villains including Hitler, Mao, Sultan Mehmet II, some of the Taliban leaders, Caligula, and the guy who killed Mahatma Gandhi, who were all either gay or bisexual, suddenly these same people want to sweep the evidence under the rug.

Hector writes: "It's interesting how some people are eager to make the claim, on exactly zero evidence, that Christ, St. Paul and other significant religious figures were gay. But when it comes to the rogues' gallery of historical villains including Hitler, Mao, Sultan Mehmet II, some of the Taliban leaders, Caligula, and the guy who killed Mahatma Gandhi, who were all either gay or bisexual, suddenly these same people want to sweep the evidence under the rug."

It's interesting how Hector's extremely deep-rooted hatred of homosexuality gets him all worked up over this topic. I have no idea if Paul was gay - but I do think he was a misogynist and a sadist. There is no evidence of Jesus's sexuality at all, although he did, of course, ask 12 men to eat him.

(That a large percentage of the Catholic priesthood is gay is not really relevant to this point but I thought I'd mention it anyway just for fun.)

Moe,

I'll stop ragging on the gays when you stop ragging on the 'Jesoids'.

Hector says: "I'll stop ragging on the gays when you stop ragging on the 'Jesoids'."

Can't do it, man. The Jesoids (a sub-group of Christians) are busy trying to ruin the country. They have it coming.

Moe,

What's the difference between a Christian and a Jesoid? Do I fall into the 'Jesoid' class?

No, Hector - it's a term I use along with Christianist and SuperChristian and you'd have to be a torture-loving right-winger to qualify, among other things.

Hector & TMoC, I suggest not responding to MLJ. He's just baiting you. Matthew 7:6.

I do think Gal. 5 is applicable to Christians. Just because the world would have it different, that doesn't make it so! Romans 12:2

I might have some on-line resources on this topic that will help you make up your own mind. Ping me if you want them.

Cheers!

Moe,

I actually kind of enjoy your baiting the Christians. Helps keep us honest and test our faith. It would be a sad kind of world with no village atheists in it.

One of the missed opportunities in my mind is Mitt Romney not getting his mug on free media during the whole Subprime securitized finance blowup. You can't tell me the networks weren't dying for smart guests who could make sense of the mess on Wall Street. This is the one big and growing issue that Mitt Romney has an edge on everyone else in the field. And where the Hell has he been? I sure haven't heard about him getting his face on CNBC or Fox Business.

Mitt has instead been trying to be Mike Huckabee in Iowa while simultaneously trying to be Rudy Guiliani in New Hampshire.

Mitt had too much money at the start of the campaign. So he poured a ton of money into ads early on when they would be long forgotten before it counted and didn't work nearly hard enough at getting free media. Whether you like them or not McCain in 2000 and Huckabee in this cycle were able to keep their face in front of the public and get their message out using earned media.

Mightymouse1107 wrote: Similarly, Fiscal Conservatives and their mistrust of government in one's pocketbook are more logical allies for Social Liberals and their mistrust of government in their personal decisions.

Really it's the two halves of classical liberalism getting back together again. The original liberals were pretty close to the classical Northeastern Republicans: they didn't care what you did in your bedroom or to your employees. As long as those on the recieving end could in some some way be seen as volunteering for it then it was between you and them.