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The God Market

14 Dec 2007 10:19 am

Apropos of Romney's talk about Europe's empty cathedrals, Matt writes:

... whatever you may say about Europe's relative lack of religiosity, it's not a lack of entanglement of religion in public life that led to it ... In the United Kingdom ... there is, after all, an established church. And so it goes across northern Europe where each country traditionally had its own established Protestant church. And then across southern Europe, the Catholic Church always had official or quasi-official status. There was no question of pushing the church out of the public square. It's just that many people (the image of Europe as an all-atheist land tends to be overblown, there are churchgoers there, just not as many as in the US) wound up turning their backs on the church. This development most likely seems specifically related to the undue public-ification of religion in Europe. American religious groups, by contrast, have traditionally had to compete in a market of sorts for congregants. A church nobody wants to attend winds up shutting down, a popular church grows. Consequently, people have found ways to keep bringing people into the pews.

This point of view - that market competition is good for religious faith - has become the conventional wisdom nowadays. That doesn't make it wrong: America's most successful churches do behave a lot like successful corporations, and its most successful pastors like successful CEOs and pitchmen. I'm more convinced, though, that our free market in religion explains faith's success in America than that its supposed absence explains faith's eclipse in Europe. America, after all, doesn't just have a free market; it has a free-market culture, where people are used to be treated like consumers and thinking like consumers in almost every walk of life. The social geography of American life, in particular - car culture, suburbanization, and big-box stores - habituates people to constant mobility and competition, and thus makes the idea of church-shopping a natural fit in a way that isn't necessarily the case in Europe.

So it probably isn’t a coincidence that New England, arguably the most "Euro-American" part of the country, has the fewest megachurches of any American region; as Frances Fitzgerald noted in a recent New Yorker:

In Maurilio Amorim's opinion, New England is still the hardest place in the country to work as a church-growth consultant. Local television, he says, doesn't bring very many people to church there, and direct mail isn't as effective as it is elsewhere. Amorim believes that the main problem lies in the "bigger disconnect between the culture and the church." What he means is that church is not a pervasive way of life, as it is in the South. But there are other reasons. In Thumma's view, the strength and independence of the New England towns has militated against the development of regional churches. People just don't like to leave town in order to go to church. Also, in these towns, the civic culture has been shaped by the Protestant churches on the town greens, and the Catholics have fully participated in it. In New Milford, the clergy-mainline Protestants, Catholics, and Jews-long ago reached an unwritten agreement to respect one another's boundaries and to coöperate in community-service programs. (As a part of this agreement, they don't send mailings to members of other churches; Faith Church, of course, does.) In the urban and suburbanized parts of southern Connecticut, the towns may be losing their coherence, for regional churches have begun to spring up. All the same, New England remains a hard place to build a megachurch.

It isn’t that there isn’t the possibility of religious competition in a small New England town, or that the Establishment Clause somehow doesn’t apply; it’s just that the fabric of everyday life is woven in such a way as to discourage it. Which makes me skeptical that all the Continent’s churches need is disestablishment of religion, followed by an infusion of pastorpreneurs. It isn’t enough to have churches that behave like Wal-Mart; you need a culture and a social order that conditions would-be parishioners to think that shopping for a church is a normal thing to do.

It's also worth noting that the official establishment of Anglicanism (to take just one example from the European context) didn’t prevent a denominational free market from flourishing in England for hundreds of years: If anything, evangelicalism was strongest in Great Britain at a time when Anglican prerogatives were more jealously defended than they are today. (Go tell the Wesley brothers that the Church of England’s establishment hampered evangelization.) The opportunity for start-up churches and cross-congregation competition has existed in Britain for centuries, and preachers and religious entrepreneurs have taken advantage. Which suggests, in turn, that whatever's causing the recent turn away from Christianity runs deeper than the fact that Queen Elizabeth is addressed as Defender of the Faith.

If I were to look for a single factor driving the trend toward secularization, I’d single out the sheer size of the European welfare state, which reduces the need for many of the tangible services that religious communities provide, and crowds out the space where they would grow. (It isn’t a coincidence that European religion thrives in immigrant communities, where the welfare state’s writ runs weakest.) But obviously the explanation has to be more complicated than this. In an earlier discussion of this topic, Daniel Larison proposed a slew of plausible factors at work in Europe's turn away from God:

Here is a list, by no means exhaustive ... scientific advances, materialist philosophies, the uprooting and deracinating effects of industrialisation and urbanisation, the introduction of ideological politics and mass political mobilisation, the material and moral ravages of the two wars, followed by the effects of two essentially materialist worldviews that claimed to “deliver the goods” more effectively or justly than the other.

Where the experience of Europe clearly differs from our own, and one of the reasons why Europe has gone further in its secularisation, is in their experience of the wars. I have to wonder whether Americans would have been church-going and believing in the numbers that we are today if we had experienced the full horror of these conflicts and had endured the same losses.

I wonder too, though I believe the immediate aftermath of World War II produced a (short-lived) religious revival on the continent, coinciding with the ascendancy in Western Europe of self-consciously Christian politicians like Konrad Adenauer. (The enormous post-war expansion of the welfare state was, among many other things, an attempt to put a particular interpretation of Catholic social teaching into action; that it may have led to an eclipse of religion is one of those ironies that History specializes in. It’s also one reason, among many, that I’m wary of drawing parallels between “Sam’s Club conservatism” and Europe’s Christian Democrats.)

Perhaps it just took a while for the true horror of the World Wars to sink in; certainly the Holocaust, with all its implications for theodicy, has received steadily more attention as the conflict that made it possible has receded. Perhaps war itself and the aftermath of war make people more likely to fear God – no atheists in a foxhole and so forth - while the memory of war, particularly in a welfare-state society that places a premium on material comfort, makes people more likely to resent Him, and doubt His existence entirely. The experience of suffering breeds faith, in this reading of human nature, but meditating on suffering breeds atheism. Particularly when the suffering in question was caused by totalizing, pseudo-religious ideologies; after listening too closely to Marx and Hitler, today's Europe seems to have decided, to borrow from C.S. Lewis, that "the dwarves are for the dwarves."

Comments (118)

Ross,

There is also the overlooked role of the family in this matter. Weaker "natural family" leading to secularization, in short. Mary Eberstadt wrote of this in Policy Review.

I think her view cuts to the core of the issue. After all, just this week we find that 50% of babies in the UK are born out of wedlock -- not exactly the "natural family" setup.

Matthew Dallman

Addendum:

Eberstadt's final paragraph:

In sum, and given what we know now about the religious and familial situation in Western Europe some 125 years later, Nietzsche was right to declare that the great Christian cathedrals of Europe had become tombs. But he may have been wrong about what exactly had been buried in them. It was not so much God as the European natural family that has been largely laid to rest — an interment already well underway in some countries long before his madman entered the square and one that is surely an overlooked and critical part of the full story of how Christian Europe went secular.

Ross Douthat's final statement is utterly obscene:


after listening too closely to Marx and Hitler, today's Europe seems to have decided, to borrow from C.S. Lewis, that "the dwarves are for the dwarves."

Ross

I'm having trouble distinguishing - are you merely trying to explain what is going on that has caused the decline of religion in Europe, or are you specifically in favor of Europe or it's constituent states taking steps to increase church attendance?

If so, why is church attendance (or, broadly, religiosity) a worthwhile goal?

A

Don't disagree with any of the factors you've mentioned, but it's worth noting as well the impact of intellectual elites - and especially their impact on church elites.

To take one example - the Netherlands, which most folks will say is one of the more secular countries in Europe. Until the mid-1960s, the Dutch had one of the higher percentages of people who did not claim any religious affiliation. But they also had one of the higher percentages of people who were quite devout: high church attendance, lots of extra participation, lots of priestly vocations, etc. But especially among the mainline Protestants and Catholics, that all collapsed in the late 1960s. Priestly vocations went from something like 300 a year in 1960 to less than 20 a year in the early 1970s. One of the things that clearly contributed to this decline was, I think, the church leadership, the Catholic Bishops in particular. Dutch Bishops, before Vatican II, ripped the railings out of the altars, got rid of confessionals, and went on tv to tell folks that the Church wasn't all that interested in sexual morality. (A bit of an exaggeration on the last one, but only a bit). When church elites find themselves owing more to Hegel, Schleiermacher, and Heidegger than they do to Paul and Augustine, it's no wonder the churches emptied out. (And it's one of the reasons for evangelicals to worry, since too many "successful" evangelical pastors owe more to Dale Carnegie than, well....)

If so, why is church attendance (or, broadly, religiosity) a worthwhile goal?

Well, in secular terms, we have some evidence that believers are happier, better adjusted, and in some sense more reliable folks. But, really, if it's all hogwash I have to admit I don't care -- if there is no God, I'm enough of a jerk to think that I'd rather people be a bit miserable and badly behaved, because it seems to fit the general theme of the universe better.

On the other hand, I think that there is a God, as does Ross, so -- more church attendance might actually have some people worshipping Him, and that's a bit better life than existing to accumulate orgasms and toys, which seems to be the primary alternative aim for life offered these days. Better than Marx, but not too great.

Matthew,

I wonder if I might pose a simple question without being read to imply a counter-argument. Regarding out-of-wedlock births and religiosity (and their relation), might the African-American and, to a lesser extent, Latino communities in the US prove to be exceptions to the trend Eberstadt proposes? I have in mind the fact that rates of religiosity in the two communities in no way resemble those of the UK, yet out-of-wedlock births are still high -- in the case of the African-American community, higher than those of the UK (i.e., roughly 75% of all births).

Just wondering if this might call into question the relation, unless it is meant to apply only to the European context.

Best~

How about the impact of education? Europeans are more likely to know multiple languages, more likely to have an understanding of basic tenets of science, more likely to have realistic non-mystical views of sexuality, etc.

They have a better education system than we do. And well educated people are much more likely to understand that the beliefs of organized religions are not credible. Hence, fewer believers.

Yes, The dwarves are for the dwarves and we await Aslan. The mega-churches could be the barn.

I live in a New England where the Congregational, Episcopal, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, and Luthewran churches are doing well. The Unitarian church is in tough shape, though now that the UUA has dispensed with the Neo Pagan Caucus, perhaps its fortune will improve.

Nate,

You ask potentially good questions; I don't have any data on the religiosity of the groups you are talking about. I did mean to generally refer to the European context. For all I know, there may be other factors in the black and Latino communities that act to mitigate to some extent the impact of non-natural family arrangements over the long haul.

And, to be sure, Eberstadt, in the body of her piece, takes pains to point out that the natural family variable is not a lone, but rather one of several possible, leading indicators when it comes to societal religiosity.

Matthew,

Thank you for your response!

Mr. Dallman,

I would add to that criticism of your post. Rates of unmarried parenthood are very high among the devoutly religious countries of Central America and the Caribbean region (and to a lesser extent in South America too.) That doesn't appear to have made those countries any less religious. I believe that the four countries with the highest out of wedlock birthrates are Jamaica, Costa Rica, El Salvador and the DR, three of those four countries are not just highly religious but also have an official state religion.

Marquis,

We don't really agree on whether Marxism or 'toys and orgasms' is a better way to live your life....but we've been over that ground already and probably shouldn't tread it again. I would just point out that Marxism did at least set itself the goal of trying to create a 'new socialist man' who would be more virtuous, more self-sacrificing, etc. than the old. whereas liberal-capitalist society seems to have no concept of virtue at all. No less a right-winger than T.S. Eliot after all said that Marxism and fascism set up twisted and defective ideals of virtue, but liberal society sets up no ideal of virtue at all. To me that's a far bigger attack on the Christian, natural-law way of thinking about man's nature and destiny.

I also don't know whether it's fair to say that modern secular Europe is all about toys and orgasms. Modern Scandinavia after all seems to live by a fairly rigorous moral code in terms of the way they care for each other, for people in third world countries, and for the natural environment. (As Ross points out in another post, they also have fewer abortions and more couples, married or not, that stay together to care for their kids than we do). It seems to me that a plausible case can be made that This would seem to indicate that the practice of Christian virtue can outlive the decline of actual Christian faith. Or maybe the Christian faith of the Swedes is simply unconscious and in abeyance.

I would imagine that the greater religiosity of immigrants has more to do with the fervor of religious belief in their homelands than it does with the fact that they are less dependent on the welfare state. If you are a fervently Christian African and you move to France, then you are probably going to remain a fervent Christian regardless of you surroundings. Living in a "godless" country might actually increase the intensity of your beliefs.

There’s a lot here in this otherwise sort piece and I have several comments

1) Why are “mega-churches” being equated with religiosity in general, such that the secularism of New England is attributed to the region’s lack of mega-churches? First off, mega-churches are a fairly new phenomenon and their absence in, say, the 19th century did not hinder the religiosity of our ancestors. It’s a personal quirk of my own, perhaps, but I find the very concept of a mega-church very off-putting, and I vastly prefer small, intimate religious gatherings to large congregations where one becomes nothing more than a cog in the machine— there’s too much of that in modern life as is. I’m sure there are others who feel this way too, and I don’t see that as a hindrance to faith at all.

2) I am very skeptical of linking the World Wars to Europe’s decline in religion. This decline has proceeded just as much in countries like Ireland and Sweden that had no part in those wars. And the theodicy questions raised by the Holocaust, and by Hiroshima, are just as valid and necessary in the US as in Europe.

3) I can see some logic in the claim that a social welfare state may make churches less necessary—assuming that the churches in question were performing a social welfare function originally. This is very much true of the Catholic Church, but less true of others. The Orthodox churches tended to take the attitude of “The Tsar will provide”, regarding such work as the proper provenance of secular government, though the Church might serve as a conduit for the tsar’s social work. And the Protestant churches (with honorable exceptions) have a very poor record of doing social welfare work. Indeed, the Reformation was accompanied by the immiserization of multitudes as the destitute, the disabled and the mentally ill who had sheltered in monasteries before, were turned loose on the streets when the monasteries were shuttered and the Lutheran, Calvinist and Anglican clergy ceased to consider some people their proper charge. Moroever, to what extent do churches function as welfare agencies in the US? Among the poor, somewhat (but only to a very inadequate extent), but for the middle class not all. It’s not as if the US lacks a welfare state, after all; we aren’t Sweden, but we’re a lot closer to Sweden than we are to Haiti or Bangladesh in this regard.

4. Families: again, there’s something here, but I think Ms Eberstadt greatly overstated her case. The Europeans do have children after all, just fewer of them (and most are born to two parent families although the parents may not be joined with benefit of clergy). Surely any existential wonder and awe at the process and fact of birth accrues to the first birth one experiences more than to subsequent ones. Meanwhile, I believe that our experience with the other end of life may be contributing to the decline of religiosity. In the not so distant past people died at home (and not always at advanced age), and often enough funerals were conducted at home too. By isolating ourselves from death we are probably isolating ourselves from the eschatological questions which religion addresses—though this is as true in the US as in Europe

5. I am very dubious about the "education" theory because the gap between Americans and Europeans in education is very tiny (again, America is not Haiti!) and moreover religiosity is well-established among the college-educated middle and upper middle classes in this country-- as it once was in Europe among similarly well-educated people (Europe in 1950 was not Haiti either).

I am very dubious about the "education" theory because the gap between Americans and Europeans in education is very tiny (again, America is not Haiti!) and moreover religiosity is well-established among the college-educated middle and upper middle classes in this country-- as it once was in Europe among similarly well-educated people (Europe in 1950 was not Haiti either).

Not really. What percentage of Americans with post-graduate degrees regularly attend church? What percentage of Americans with degress in the natural sciences regularly attend church?

It is true that we have upwards of 90 percent of the people who proclaim a belief in God-- but that's merely a testament to Pascal's wager.

But in terms of how many people actually practice a religion, it goes way, way down among the most educated Americans. They know better.

Where's religious belief most common and most fervent in America? In the least educated, least tolerant, most backward, most ignorant region of the country, the South. It's no accident.

JonF:

To this point you make:

"Surely any existential wonder and awe at the process and fact of birth accrues to the first birth one experiences more than to subsequent ones."

If you are saying awe and wonder decrease with each subsequent birth of a child, then I disagree. As the father of three girls under 3, if anything the opposite -- no diminishing of wonder at the crazy mystery of it all, whatsoever. And with the impossibly subtle yet unmistakable personality similarities and differences between the girls changing/growing/swirling by the day, there is never a lack of reasons to wonder about it all.

I will say that what does diminish with subsequent children is the amount of "life-shock", if you follow me. Lots of it when child 1 was born -- all the responsibility, the changing of priorities, the adjusting to not getting enough sleep, and so on. Still some intense or as granular as with child 1.

In any event, Eberstadt's point on this -- awe and wonderment of childbirth leading to religiosity -- is something that simply makes sense to me, as in I can see its plausibility given my own life.

Last sentence of 2nd full graph should read:

"Still some, but not nearly as intense or as granular as with child 1."

Re: In any event, Eberstadt's point on this -- awe and wonderment of childbirth leading to religiosity -- is something that simply makes sense to me, as in I can see its plausibility given my own life.

I don't disagree with that basic point, but I don't see it as having much to do with Europe's falling away from Christianity. After all, most Europeans have at least one, often two children and so go through the same existential process. And our American birth rates are not all that much higher than Europe's, especially if you subtract out recent immigrants. I will concede your point about subsequent births since you've had kids and I have not. Which however brings up another question: why am I not a thorough-going secularist? I have never had the awe of witnessing birth, not counting the birth of kittens and that was pretty annoying since it stained up the carpet and the last thing we needed was more cats. And how to explain the intense faith of religious celibates? In my case at least if I had to point to life experiences I would point to the other end of life: I lost my mother at nine, my brother committed suicide when I was 18 and my father died when I was 24. Death, besides being wrenching, also forces one to confront vast existential questions and, as I said before, our modern world tends to hide death away. And many people nowadays never have to deal with major loss until they are well into middle age themselves.

Dilan,

I'm an American pursuing a graduate degree in the natural sciences. I also grew up in Blue states, in a non-religious household (and the religion I was exposed to most wasn't Christianity anyway) and consider myself on the political left. It looks like religious people aren't as monochrome as you make out.

And the claim that education makes people more able to see through religious lies is foolish. More accurate to say that education carries the risk of tempting people to believe they can explain more about the world than they actually can.

One factor that the author doesn't really mention is culture. Europeans are culturally very different to Americans - and you have to live there a while to really appreciate this. Cultural trends are very hard to reverse and, like it or not, Europe is heading rapidly towards a post-Christian society.

I find this a bit curious debate - mainly because as a general trend religiosity is related to intelligence - in terms of countries, the least intelligent countries are also the most religious and vice versus, and in terms of individuals this is also the case - a aggregative study (of previous studies back to the '40s)I saw recently found that non-religious people were on average 7 - 10 IQ points more intelligent, and this is also the case with educational class i.e. the higher your level of education, the less likely you are to be overly religious - by quite a margin.

However, there is an odd trend if you compare religiosity against intelligence by country, and that is that America sticks out like a sore thumb as a very intelligent, but also very religious country against the general trends, so surely that's a far more pertinent question than why Europe is becoming increasingly secularized.

As a non-religious European I look it at from the other side and wonder how America has managed to keep hold of religion.

I put it down to peer pressure. It seems to me that small town America can exert a sort of social pressure to conform. Americans seem to live in self selected social groups (middle class, old people, golf towns etc).

Where I live, it is way more cosmopolitan with all sorts of ages, incomes and beliefs rubbing shoulders. The chance of bumping into someone who is likely to re-enforce ones particualar brand of belief is next to zero.

I was once dining with a Dutch family who politely asked if I would like to take time for grace. It seem strange, it was the first time in my life that anyone had enquired about my belief (or lack of) in such a way. Usually religion is simple not mentioned in polite company. I have worked with people for years without knowing anything about their religion.

There is very little in religion that is self evident, so if no one talks about it or tells you what is beleived then surely it will rapidly decline. Which seems to be the case in Europe.

I'm an American pursuing a graduate degree in the natural sciences. I also grew up in Blue states, in a non-religious household (and the religion I was exposed to most wasn't Christianity anyway) and consider myself on the political left. It looks like religious people aren't as monochrome as you make out.

And the claim that education makes people more able to see through religious lies is foolish. More accurate to say that education carries the risk of tempting people to believe they can explain more about the world than they actually can.

Hector, reread my post. I asked about "percentages". I know there are educated people who are religious. There always have been, and there always will be.

But level of education certainly CORRELATES with being smart enough to know that the claims of religious hierarchies based on old books written by ignorant people are not credible.

Dear Douthat,

Your God Market feature has at least one serious omission and an error of commission.

Any reading of European politics from the French Revolution to 1945 will reveal without effort the Papacy and other churches heavily on the side of conservative politics; both in the sense of anti-democratic politics and restricted voting; as well as conservative about social and political responsibility and social justice in general. Pius IX 's Syllabus of Errors set the tone and priests directed from pulpits that to vote liberal was a mortal sin.

An illustrative Protestant example is that as late as the 1950's inclusive it was notorious in England and Wales that the Tory Party was the Anglican Establishment in politics usually expressed as "The Church of England is the Tory Party at prayer." Conversely the Labour Party was only too happy to declare itself, "More Methodist than Marxist," and the heads of union branches in printing and mining were often styled,"Father of the Chapel," and especially in South Wales met in Nonconformist chapels. This has all vanished with the post war social up-heavals. The oddest thing about the Thatcher government was precisely that it stopped being Anglican, and took up secular economic ideology.

The error is that in turning Protestant the English government at least, did not drop welfare but found it had to take up the formerly Church welfare role and did so by statutes: famously the Elizabethan Poor Law (1601) that consolidated a half century's experience and lasted till 1834. By this law every parish ie village or town quarter had to elect overseers of the poor who met in the vestry and raised poor rates to care for those in need. Understandably the wealthy landlords had the biggest say and the variability of public charity from town and village to town and village was considerable; but what killed the system was industrialisation and big towns that overflowed traditional boundaries. This led to the New Poor Law caricatured by Dickens in Oliver Twist. It was resented for refusing relief unless you entered the poorhouse or "workhouses" but it did build the first wave of urban hospitals of Victorian Britain. FDA

Mr. Adam,

You raise some very good points. The Catholic Church at least was traditionally (between 1789 and the Second Vatican Council) more often than not hostile to the left, to socialism and democracy in general, and to the general idea of social progress. At times this took extreme forms, for example being the patron of Franco in Spain. This wasn't totally their fault, because most (not all) left wing movements during this period were highly anticlerical and bitterly hostile to the Church. I don't know whether more fault lies with the Church or with the Left, but certainly each did a lot to antagonize the other.

None of this is to take away from the fact that the Church did do a great deal of good at moderating the injustices of both feudal and capitalist society. Not enough, but a good deal. Nor that some of the criticisms that the Church made of left wing movements were valid, nor that the Church was never quite as much a supporter of the status quo as it seemed to many.

Sociological explanations are all very well, but it makes more sense to me to (as they used to during Watergate), "Follow the money." Let's see where it leads.

Churches pay U.S. federal income taxes on "for profit" businesses. But a tax exempt entity does not pay income tax on "passive income" such as dividends, "rents" and royalties.

It's easy to corrupt this system. Suppose a church buys a privately-owned cattle ranch which is highly profitable and pays a goodly federal income tax under private owners. The church only has to lease the land back to a "for profit" corporation that operates the ranch and own the shares of the corporation. The rents paid by the ranch operation to the church are deductible business expense so the profits of the operation balloon. The rent payments to the church are passive so the church doesn't pay income tax either. The net effect is that a huge profit making, and tax paying, operation can be converted into another cost for everybody.

Hector writes: "None of this is to take away from the fact that the Church did do a great deal of good at moderating the injustices of both feudal and capitalist society. Not enough, but a good deal. Nor that some of the criticisms that the Church made of left wing movements were valid, nor that the Church was never quite as much a supporter of the status quo as it seemed to many."

Hector, through most of feudal European history the Church and the monarchies were locked together in one big obscene daisy chain. Far from "moderating" anything, the Church was a unifying force for the worst scumbags at the top. Then they decided witchburning was a cool summer sport.

In the days of the Fenian uprisings in Ireland rebels were threatened with excommunication by the Church. In fascist Germany, Spain, Italy, and Portugal, preserving Church assets was always more important than speaking out in favor of decency and liberty.

Oh, but at least the Church stood forthright here in America against Joyce's "Ulysses"!

To its own imaginary hell with the Church and your constant bizarre excuses for it. Next you'll be claiming the Church was the 20th century's leading champion of altar boy chastity... and even Bernie Law wouldn't agree with you there.

Re: through most of feudal European history the Church and the monarchies were locked together in one big obscene daisy chain.

No. The Church and the medieval kings were very often at loggerheads. Hence Henry IV kneeling in the snow at Canossa to beg the Pope's forgivesness, the murder of Thomas a Berckett by Henry II's henchmen in England, etc. Indeed, Church-state conflict even played a role in the origin of Magna Carta since King John not only had his nobles against him but also the Church.

Re: Then they decided witchburning was a cool summer sport.

The witch panics were far more common in the early modern era than in the Middle Ages, apart from the time of the Black Death when panics period were the order of the day. The Inquisition even defined belief in witchcraft as a heresy. Most witch panics took place in Protestant Europe (Germany and England) nor in the Catholic countries.

Moe,

I'm not denying much of what you say. I believe that I made it clear that the Church was often (not always) a reactionary force, a supporter of monarchy and the feudal order, and held on fiercely to its own land and privileges. I believe I also made it clear that this was why the anti-clerical nature of many revolutionary governments in places like France, Spain, Russia and Latin America was a tragic but not totally incomprehensible thing.

I don't think 'a refuge for the worst scumbags at the top' is a fair decription but I would agree with you that the Church had a fair bit to answer for.

"Hector, through most of feudal European history the Church and the monarchies were locked together in one big obscene daisy chain. Far from "moderating" anything, the Church was a unifying force for the worst scumbags at the top. Then they decided witchburning was a cool summer sport."

Not only that, but they also exported terror to a large extent. The reason that there are so few Hindus, Muslims and Jews in Goa today is that the Portuguese Catholics killed most of them (especially Indian Jews) during the Goa Inquisition.

I think Ross brings up some decent points. However, I would have liked to have seen him actually dive deeper into the whole Catholicism vs. Protestantism vs. Judaism issues that plagued the Northeast. New England and the greater Northeast used to be the home of mainstream Protestant thought in the US. After all, the idea of Protestant fundamentalism as a way of belief started at the theology department at Princeton. New England prep schools were the training grounds to be good WASPs. However, Catholic and Jewish immigration created conflict. Both groups were discriminated against both religiously and ethnically (with Catholics often being Irish or Italian and Jews often being Slavic). During the days of the New Deal coalition, Catholics and Jews were strongly aligned in the Democratic Party against WASP plutocrats in the Republican Party. This conflict probably helped to lead many towards secularism much like what happened in the Netherlands, where secularism and toleration (at least within Christian denominations) grew out of necessity and avoiding conflict. New England also remained rather wealthy through this time, unlike Catholic Louisiana, which is still rather religious in the way the South is religious. Meanwhile, the WASPs became rich enough that religion was no longer really needed.

Some of this also points to how secular Catholicism and Judaism, especially as practiced in New England, are simply different from secular Protestantism. If you want to beat any religiosity out of a young Catholic or Jew who has some religious inclinations, make them go to CCD or Hebrew School. Those were the bane of the existence of many Catholic and Jewish friends of mine growing up in New England. However, you never really heard about the Protestant kids going to Bible study or something during the week and we weren't even that rich a town compared to some of our neighboring towns when I was young (but this is changing now). The rise of Reform Judaism and the presence of the idea of being culturally Jewish without practicing Judaism also probably contributes to New England's secularism. Megachurches in general are also more of a Protestant thing than a Catholic thing. Last of all, even long before the scandal broke, all the kids would joke about not being left alone with a priest or he would molest you (and one of the local priests did turn out to be a child molester). Over the decades, as the Church started to be seen more as a threat to children's safety than anything else, it stopped being a sanctuary. The misogyny also probably doesn't help.

Reality Man,

Uh, Goa is a majority Hindu state. The total number of victims of the Goa Inquisition is believed to number in the hundreds, so while they may have terrorized Hindus, Jews, and Orthodox Christians, it would not be fair to say that they killed 'most of' them. You forgot to mention that the ancient community of (Orthodox) Christians dating from the first century also suffered greatly under the Portuguese.

I also don't think it's fair to call the entire Northeast 'secular.' We may be religious in quite the same way as the South, but we are religious. Certainly people in Massachusetts talk a lot about religion; one of the first things that I usually learn after meeting a new person is what church they belong to. Some Northeastern states, like Rhode Island, would probably place heavy restrictions on abortion if Roe vs. Wade was ever overturned.

Hector wrote: "I also don't think it's fair to call the entire Northeast 'secular.' We may be religious in quite the same way as the South, but we are religious. Certainly people in Massachusetts talk a lot about religion; one of the first things that I usually learn after meeting a new person is what church they belong to. Some Northeastern states, like Rhode Island, would probably place heavy restrictions on abortion if Roe vs. Wade was ever overturned."

Like hell it would Hector. The lie in your comment is revealed in your use of "some." What other states did you have in mind? Dumbya Bush uses the "some people" construction constantly, and it ALWAYS means a lie is coming.

Rhode Island MIGHT place some mild restrictions on abortion if Roe were overturned, but this "heavy" nonsense is just your fetus-fetish speaking.

One of the reasons I thought you were an immigrant is that your understanding of this country seems so at odds with my own. The Northeast IS a secular civilization. If someone ran for governor up here spouting the Jesoid line he'd be shot down pretty damn quick. People would assume he was a lunatic, and quite rightly.

As for this "one of the first things you learn" is "wat church they belong to," I'd guess that's a factor of you walking around wearing little silver feet and meeting most of your new friends while picketing outside of Planned Parenthood. Religion seldom comes up in normal conversations with strangers up here, unless someone's cracking a joke.

Moe,

Well, I suppose you're right about abortion, on closer examination it looks like Rhode Island is the only Northeastern state where they have a large number of pro-life voters. I suspect most of the pro-choice people in Massachusetts would drop their pro-choice voting like a hot potato if they were actually threatened with excommunication, and quite rightly. I think the Vatican (and perhaps the heads of other churches too) should stop talking about excommunication, and just actually do it, and then the abortion problem would be solved.

Perhaps our experiences vary because of the different people we know. But I assure you that religion is a fairly common topic of conversation with my friends, even those who are not particularly religious themselves. About 16% of Massachusetts population claims to be non-religious, only slightly above the 14% nationally.

And no, I've never participated in a anti-abortion rally, although perhaps I should consider it sometime.

Moe,

I just looked up RI's statutes. Guess what? RI laws already on the books prohibit minors from getting an abortion without approval from a parent or a judge; prohibit married women from obtaining abortions without notifying their husband; requires that a woman obtain counseling before having abortion; prohibits abortion after 12 weeks except when the mother's life is at risk. Obviously all of these laws are unenforced because they contravene Roe v. Wade. But they are still on the books, according to NARAL, and will presumably go into effect once again when Roe v. Wade is overturned, as it must eventually be.

I think that the good people of Rhode Island deserve to be congratulated for the good work they have done in fighting against the culture of abortion.

As a European who went to an American school, I'd like to offer a different hypothesis. Maybe it's not Europe and the US which are so different, but European Christianity which is so different from American Christianity. The former is New Testament-oriented and seems very much out of sync with rampant capitalism ("a rich person can no more enter the gates of Heaven than a camel can go through a needle's eye", indeed). American churches, with their Old Testament fire and brimstone and their obscenely rich preachers, may be better adapted to an age of robber barons. I recall Dick Cheney once saying, "If people are poor they must have done something wrong" - by which he meant, as the context showed, "they must have sinned". I can't imagine any European believer let alone a politician saying something like that.

I don't mean to be insulting but American "Christianity" seems to be all about form (going to church, saying the world was created in six days, singing certain songs) and no content (Jesus' words). Europeans don't put Jesus' words into practise either but they dumped the Sodom and Gomorrah bit at the same time they dumped the Gospels.

But it could be that I'm confusing cause and effect.

Marxism did at least set itself the goal of trying to create a 'new socialist man' who would be more virtuous, more self-sacrificing, etc

Yes, which tends to result in more of a bloodbath (because it isn't possible -- no economic restructuring or application or force by a party vanguard, or history, can undo the Fall of Man) than mere lack of virtue and love of comfort.

Marxism as she is practiced may (in some sense) be "better for Christians", because it grants the possibility of martyrdom. But playing the odds, I'm not sure that the Soviets, Cuba, or China aren't _more_ seductive in the sense that it takes more virtue and courage and love beyond most men to resist the little or big compromises that destroy souls there than it does in contemporary liberaldom. That is, "lead us not into temptation" -- I'd rather be tempted by a nice car and hot sex than not getting shot or jailed or lesser things. I know I (sometimes) resist the former, but I don't know how I'd do faced with the latter. The rewards of martyrdom are greater, but who are we to ask for Really Big Challenges?

The Soviets (pre-1960 or so) and China, sure. But Cuba? I think you overplay your hand here. Cuba imprisoned and, probably, tortured people for _political_ reasons, not religious ones. It never went to the extent of persecuting religious believers that Stalin and Mao did. And the executions that happened were not of simple dissidents, they were of people that had been involved in the Batista tyranny (army, police, etc.) They did send a bunch of reactionary Spanish priests back to Spain, but they didn't torture, imprison or execute them.

The Cuban state was never as stridently atheist as the Soviet, Chinese, or probably even the Mexican state. Although there was some anti-Catholic propaganda in the schools during the 1960s, there was never a policy of executing, torturing, or imprisoning people for religious reasons.

being smart enough to know that the claims of religious hierarchies based on old books written by ignorant people are not credible

But it's clearly not "being smart enough" in the same sense that one might say "being smart enough to understand Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem's argument" or "being smart enough to determine eigenvectors" etc. That is, there may be correlation, but that person A is non-religious and person B is quite religious don't really establish any facts about their intelligence. Physicists and mathematicians, I believe, are generally, most studies find, considerably more religious than sociologists, and -- well, I know which group I think is pulling more intellectual horsepower there.

Yes, Cuba's not as bad as China or the Soviets, but it's bad enough. And (without getting into the degree of religious persecution, which I think is more than you think it has been), the political things can make a man compromise his integrity in a way destructive to his love of Christ and man, even if it isn't primarily about religion, per se.

But yes, it's not in the same ballpark as China or the Soviets. I'd still, in many ways, prefer the West's way to Cuba's, even if it isn't the Gulag or the Cultural Revolution, by any means.

I mean, Franco wasn't a friend to human freedom and dignity, though he was possibly preferable to the alternatives at that time there, and was better than Hitler or Mussolini.

re: The Northeast IS a secular civilization.

True, but that does not mean that it can't be religious. It just means that it keeps Church and State, religion and politics very strictly separate.

Re: I don't mean to be insulting but American "Christianity" seems to be all about form (going to church, saying the world was created in six days, singing certain songs) and no content (Jesus' words).

You are describing American evangelical Protestantism (in which category I will, very incorrectly, include Pentacostals and Fundamentalists as well). That's a subset of American Christianity, a large one, but not even a majority. American Christainity also includes the Roman Catholic Church, which has more members than any other single church: American Catholicism was originally mainly Irish in culture, with touches of German, Italian and Slavic here and there; today it is becoming increasingly Hispanicized. Though rather reactionary on anything related to sexuality, on justice issues it's decidedly to the left of the American center. There are also of course Lutherans and Episcopalians and Orthodox and Presbyterians and oher such European-derived sects. And the LDS which is in a class all by itself. Be careful about generalizing on the subject of American religion. It admits no easy universals.

Pure "form" enthusiasm is a weakness of American evangelical protestantism, but I don't think it is a uniform failing, by any means.

Hector writes: "I just looked up RI's statutes. Guess what? RI laws already on the books prohibit minors from getting an abortion without approval from a parent or a judge; prohibit married women from obtaining abortions without notifying their husband; requires that a woman obtain counseling before having abortion; prohibits abortion after 12 weeks except when the mother's life is at risk. Obviously all of these laws are unenforced because they contravene Roe v. Wade. But they are still on the books, according to NARAL, and will presumably go into effect once again when Roe v. Wade is overturned, as it must eventually be."

Hector, perhaps I was wrong - I thought you were foreign because you didn't seem to know much about the US. Maybe it's just that you don't know much, period.

Laws such as the ones you're talking about in Rhode Island have been part of the REACTION to Roe v. Wade and generally do not predate it. You could look it up and actually learn something about what you claim is a very important issue to you, or you can continue to wing it and look like a clown.

I really don't care which choice you make - I'm pro-choice!

By the way, minors in Massachusetts are also legally prohibited from getting abortions unless they get permission from a parent, guardian, or judge. How the hell can you not know that and claim to be versed on this topic?

Hector again: "I think the Vatican (and perhaps the heads of other churches too) should stop talking about excommunication, and just actually do it, and then the abortion problem would be solved."

Yeah, and after that problem is solved they'll threaten to excommunicate all homosexuals... and voila! That "problem" will be solved, too!

Are you truly that naive or is it an act?

Moe,

Yes, I know that. _Obviously_ they were in reaction to Roe v. Wade. Before 1973 they didn't need to have specific laws about abortion because nobody thought sucking a baby's brains out were a good idea. Those laws were passed in reaction, and will take effect if Roe v. Wade ever falls. Hence why I said, 'the good people of RI have done a good job at fighting against the culture of abortion."

I did know that about minors in Massachusetts, btw.

Marquis,

Well, I suppose we are not going to come to much agreement, other than on the fact that Stalin and Mao were evil men. But I disagree about your claim that the fall of man means that we must settle for a modest politics. I think that some forms of government are obviously much better tahn others, that the government can actually achieve a lot in inspiring men to be better towards one another, and that there's nothing particularly 'natural' about the desire to own a company or a stock portfolio (as against the desire to own a house or a farm, etc.)

I mean, I would prefer a government that strove for a Christian model of virtue- some kind of Cromwellian* 'Republic of the Saints.' But failing that I would prefer a government that tries to make mandatory some degree of secular virtue (self sacrifice, hard work, equality and social justice) rather than a government that doesn't believes in 'imposing' anything at all. If we can't have Jerusalem, then better Sparta than Athens.

*yes I know Cromwell was a cruel man and repressive towards the Catholics; I mean Cromwellian, not Cromwell himself

Hector takes another big bong hit and replies: "Yes, I know that. _Obviously_ they were in reaction to Roe v. Wade. Before 1973 they didn't need to have specific laws about abortion because nobody thought sucking a baby's brains out were a good idea. Those laws were passed in reaction, and will take effect if Roe v. Wade ever falls. Hence why I said, 'the good people of RI have done a good job at fighting against the culture of abortion."

I did know that about minors in Massachusetts, btw."

Hector, if you "_Obviously_" knew any of this, why did you write that the laws were "unenforced" because they "contravene Roe v Wade"? That's pure angelshit, Hector, and only someone almost wholly ignorant of the reality would make such a claim. So which is it? Ignorant or dishonest?

You don't do your side of the debate a service by being either.

Moe,

OK, let me spell this out, as I understand it.

Rhode Island passed anti-abortion laws in reaction to Roe vs. Wade. They did this in the knowledge that the moral concensus that had once existed against abortion, existed no longer, and that henceforth there would have to be laws on the books. The hope was that when Roe v. Wade falls, these laws will keep the NARAL people at bay.

These laws are not enforceable, and were never enforceable from day one, as they contravene Roe v. Wade, as it is understood today. So at the moment, they serev little purpose. They will serve a purpose on the day that Roe v. Wade falls, because then they will serve as the scaffodling for a pro life legal regime to be established in Rhode Island.

Sorry I wasnt clear before. Is that clear enough now? Any points of information you want to correct me on?

Hector, hell yes. You're wrong. The law requiring minors to get parental/guardian/judge permission, for instance, is wholly enforceable and is enforced every frigging day. Again, are you totally new to this issue or do you just make shit up and hope it sticks?

State legislatures have been passing laws like that ever since Roe - some are challenged and survive, some don't. Holy Hymen, Batman! You yammer about how you love Bob Casey Jr but you don't seem to know anything about Planned Parenthood v Pennsylvania - how is that possible? Do some gawddamned homework already, you're embarrassing yourself.

Moe,

OK, I accept your correction. No need to be snippy. My point stands, which is that Rhode Island has a pro-life electorate which would probably vote to heavily restrict abortion when Roe v. Wade falls.

If we can't have Jerusalem, then better Sparta than Athens.

Ah, yes, we're not in agreement, then. Much wrong with Athens, of course, but I think "Sparta" always ends up having the Hunting of the Slaves.

I think governments can be good, in a limited sense -- and local governments can be quite active, in many ways, without much danger of great harm coming of it. But in general, the effort to bring the Kingdom of God to man through the state will end in the State either burying us all in warm tapioca, or a boot, stomping on a human face, forever.

I'd probably go considerably less far than you in mandating even social norms that I find less troublesome in many ways --- by and large, my cultural conservatism consists of wanting to stop the state from actively pursuing the ends of the enemy, not particularly turning it into a blazing fortress of justice.

Athens left behind a sparkling legacy of art and thought and is the true cradle of Western civilization's best impulses. Sparta was nothing beside it.

Jerusalem remains a sewer of sectarian spite and the essential message of the Jerusalem "ideal" has never changed - it's this:

"Share our beliefs or you're dead meat, either in this life or the next one."

Moe's tone-deaf to the transcendent, so don't expect him to appreciate Jerusalem. If he wasn't such a biased idiot, he might at least appreciate that some things he likes, including contemporary concepts of human rights and social justice, grow as much or -- really -- more out of the ideals of Jerusalem than out of the Athenian model.

There's a good bit of 'justice for the poor and downtrodden, aid to the widows and orphans and the stranger' in the Prophets. There's precious little of it in Athens, which, for all its virtues was an aristocratic slave culture at heart. Not getting that, or how it has influenced Western culture, strikes me as showing a bigoted limitation of understanding.

I can appreciate pagan Rome and Athens (and even aspects of Sparta, though in general I think Sparta was 'totalitarian', to use an anachronism, in a way that Athens was not), but Moe just doesn't seem to be well-read (I'd guess) or (perhaps) honest enough to grant much to ideas he dislikes. I guess that doesn't make you stupid -- Gore Vidal has this problem, to a large extent, and he's better read than I am.

TMoC may see "the transcendent" in a belief system which says that the vast majority of the human race ends up in eternal torment, but I do not. If that makes me a "biased idiot" in his eyes, I'll take it as an honor.

I do know full well that Hellenic ideals came before the "Jerusalem ideal" and gave it the few redeeming qualities it has, and not the other way around.

What's funny here is that I thought TMoC's post at 11:54 was the best thing I had ever read from him. It's sad that someone capable of writing that continues to donate money to the Cardinal's Pedophile Defense Fund, isn't it?

Oh, come on Moe. Maybe you're a hardcore libertarian type (I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong), in which case I can understand you're not liking the "help the poor struggler" strain of Western thought. But the welfare state owes a lot to the Jerusalem ideal, because (unless you can point out something I'm unware of) "justice for the poor and downtrodden" or duty to those who are weak and not particularly possessed of arete or other greatness simply isn't a key you find struck much in the Athenian music. It's not even much present in Rome, though you could argue that the population appeasing moves of some Emperors have that note -- but there the emphasis is on the mob as a power-structure, not on rendering justice to the powerless. The latter is a major element of the Jewish prophets, and was a key influence on Christianity. You don't have to like Christianity or Judaism to recognize that, you just have to have some knowledge of intellectual history.

As I said, perhaps you hate that note -- perhaps you're secretly more "are there no workhouses? are there no prisons?" -- but if you do admire the idea of justice and aid to the defenseless, you've got to admit that its prominence in modern thought is due much more to Jewish and Christian influences than to anything from Athens.

More to the point, Moe, you seem to have a weirdly blinkered inability in certain cases to see any good points at all in anything you generally dislike. It's not a good trait, if you want to understand anything, or be fair to anyone. The worst often have their best, and the best their worst. That tends to induce either willful ignorance or intellectual dishonesty in a man.

But, then, you seem much more interested in insults and irrelevant cheap shots than discussion, despite occasional emergence from the pit.

I suspect most of the pro-choice people in Massachusetts would drop their pro-choice voting like a hot potato if they were actually threatened with excommunication, and quite rightly.

To lay off Moe for a second. Hector, I think this is flatly absurd, naive, and flat crazy, and don't believe it for a second. There might be a good number who would openly drop the Church, but most would go on their merry way, annoyed at the pushy bishops.

Certainly "most" pro-choice people in MA are not (I bet) even nominally Catholic, and the portion who are Catholics who would change their political views when threatened with excommunication I suspect is quite small, a handful really.

TMoC replies: "More to the point, Moe, you seem to have a weirdly blinkered inability in certain cases to see any good points at all in anything you generally dislike. It's not a good trait, if you want to understand anything, or be fair to anyone. The worst often have their best, and the best their worst. That tends to induce either willful ignorance or intellectual dishonesty in a man.

But, then, you seem much more interested in insults and irrelevant cheap shots than discussion, despite occasional emergence from the pit."

Given all of the "idiots" and "ignorances" you've been tossing my way from our very first exchange, chuckles, I'd have to say that accusation sure shows a lot of chutzpah. But then you're a conservative Christian, so hypocrisy is the water of life to you.

Extolling the "good points" in Christianity isn't my job. Of course they exist - there are "good points" in every major religion. What's amusing is how bitter and resentful good Germans like you get when I point out the negatives - which I do see as my job in forums like this one.

You see red when I point out something as obviously true as the fact that your beloved Church functioned as an institutional accomplice for huge numbers of pedophiles over the course of (at least) several decades, and that your beloved Pope was ass-deep in that sickening corruption. Let's not pretend that your central problem with me is that I'm "stupid" or "biased." Of course I'm biased. So are you.

Thanks for letting me know that Christians invented charity, though. Who knew? Next you'll be telling me they started the practice of cooking meat.

I guess the fact that Rome had an evolved welfare state long before Jesoids shared the catacombs with the rats never occurred to your well-read self.

Ok, Moe just isn't smart enough to get that I noted that about Rome, and about its roots in the mob as power-source, not in any notion of justice owed to the powerless and downtrodden BECAUSE they are powerless and downtrodden -- because there are no 'consequences' to not giving it to them. Got it, no point in going on if he can't get that kind of distinction.

See? When pagans dispense charity, it's a scheme, according to TMoC. When his kiddie-diddling collared pals do it, it's "justice owed." I suspect he gets his information about Roman charity from gladiator movies.

That Christian charity has, traditionally, always been accompanied by preaching has been noticed by some of us. "Here's some soup, you poor starving heathen - now would you care for a little wafer to go with it?"

Re: If we can't have Jerusalem, then better Sparta than Athens.

Good grief, why? The Spartans were militaristic proto-totalitarians. The Gospel would have fallen on very stony ground indeed there had the city survived long enough to hear it. There's not a virtue unique to Sparta (as opposed to those general for all the Greeks, or even all humankind) that is consistent with Christian virtue. And as for Athens, getting past anachronistic concerns about slavery and the like, the city which produced Solon and Socrates, Plato and Euripides can hardly be seen as unconcerned with either virtue or justice.

Re: Jerusalem remains a sewer of sectarian spite and the essential message of the Jerusalem "ideal" has never changed - it's this

The above verges on anti-Semitism, though at least the authors of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion were themselves learned enough to know that the Jews were among history's less militaristically imperialistic folks and so had to be accused on secret cabals and conspiracies instead.

Re: That Christian charity has, traditionally, always been accompanied by preaching has been noticed by some of us.

So what? Isn't that true of most charity, including secular charities? Sure, secular charities don't talk about God, but they do preach about all the self help and self esteem stuff. And that's not nbecessarily wrong. The poor need to be fed, but they also need some help getting out of the rut they are in, and that means they need to hear about the alternatives to the way they are living. (And perhaps society as a whole needs some secular preaching too, so it will be more just toward the poor).

Moe, this is what I meant by the history of ideas. Do you know who the Prophets were? Have you read any of the relevant Roman discussion of the "welfare state" of the time? Have you read Christian and Jewish commentary on duties to the poor? Do you know there are such things as ideas -- even if they weren't implemented well, the discussion and rhetoric were pretty important to the birth of the modern welfare state, in a way that the Roman example really wasn't. Seriously, maybe you're not so bigoted it blinds you, you're just not terribly bright about some things.

Look, Moe. Find me something in the Roman or Greek literature that reads anything like the prophetic statements about widows and orphans -- not admonitions to render Justice in the sense of "X has worked and thus deserves Y", not filial piety in the sense of "you must take care of parents", but the more abstract concept of a special duty to stranger, orphan, widow -- the weak who are not kith and kin. Maybe it exists! I'm somewhat read in the area, but I'm certainly not a specialist. But I'm not aware of it, and it certainly wasn't much on the lips of any of the founders of the modern welfare state.

Lots to respond here to.

Moe- "Jerusalem" I use in the metaphoric sense. It does not refer to the actual Jerusalem, nor to Judaism as a religion. It refers to whatever was good within the Jewish religion, which was incorporated and surpassed by Christianity, and to the underlying ideal of the messianic reign which Judaism (and to a greater extent Christianity) invoked in its better moments. No doubt the actual, historical Jerusalem was also a 'sewer of sectarian spite'. Like other human institutions, it was a mixture of good and evil. When I say "Jerusalem", I mean the