« Meritocracy vs. Democracy | Main | Huckabee And The Mormon Question »

Mormonism And Its Enemies (II)

04 Dec 2007 01:23 pm

Russell Arben Fox points me to this provocative meditation on anti-Mormonism, from Nate Oman:

... I think that Romney's speech will serve at least in part as an anvil on which one of the more surprising alliances in American politics will be hammered out: the one between conservative Catholics and Protestants. It wasn't so long ago that the idea of an Evangelical-Catholic alliance would have been anathema to both sides ... That changed beginning in the 1970s, when conservatives from both traditions decided that the forces of secularism were a greater threat than either Rome or heresy. The alliance, however, is not an entirely easy one. (Witness for example, the furor caused by Francis Beckwith's conversion from Evangelicalism to Catholicism.) I suspect that not too far below the surface of the Religious Right one will find a deep-seated theological ambivalence: Did the religious conservatives sell-out theologically by clasping hands across what had been the ultimate divide in American religious politics?

Part of this tension has been managed by the promotion of "The Great Tradition," a somewhat fictitious creation, that like 'Judeo-Christian culture," provides a coping mechanism for the cognitive dissonance created by the contradictory pulls of politics and theology. In effect, it allows Protestant and Catholic intellectuals to tell themselves, "I didn't sell out my beliefs for control of Congress; after all we both believe in Nicea and Chalcedon." In a world of un-conflicted sectarian competition, I suspect that the Mormon rejection of the creeds didn't matter all that much. Sure, it meant that Mormon theology was wrong, but everyone else's theology was wrong too, so there was no special Mormon problem. Likewise, Mormon rejection of the creeds didn't matter all that much when Ike presided over a culturally self-confident and complacent Protestantism. "Letting Mormons sit at the table," the Protestants in effect told themselves, "doesn't say anything about Protestantism because everyone understands that we wield ultimate control." (Hence, for example, Mormon apostle Ezra Taft Benson -- pictured at his swearing in left -- could serve in Ike's cabinet without the sky falling for Evangelicals.) Not so in a world where Protestant hegemony is challenged by the forces of godlessness.

Hence, I suspect that the reason why many within the Religious Right want to deny Romney (or any other Mormon) the Presidency is because Mormonism is an important theological marker that legitimizes the other theological compromises that have made the coalition possible. "Sure, we'll work with the Papists," the conservative Evangelical subconscious can say to itself, "but the Mormons are one theological compromise too far. I am not a theological sell-out because while I will accept Mormon votes, I will not accept a Mormon leader." Soft-bigotry against Mormons facilitates broader theological cooperation.

As a Mormon, I have to say that living on the anvil where the concerns of others get hammered out can be a bit uncomfortable. On the other hand, I take solace in the fact that much of the time it probably really isn't about my religion.

This analysis makes a lot of sense; I only object to note of self-pity at the end. Just because evangelicals (and Catholics, to a lesser extent) are using Mormonism as a marker to legitimize their own theological compromises doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable marker to use. It isn't only about Oman's religion, but it is about it to a great extent: Mormonism is a useful marker of how far ecumenism can go (and how far it can't) precisely because there are much, much deeper theological commonalities between, say, the Vatican and the Southern Baptist Convention than between either body and the the LDS Church. And while it's true that Mormons get more attention, and hostility, than other similarly-heterodox strands of American religion, they're at least partially victims of their own success. If the Jehovah's Witnesses, say, were doing as well as the Mormons are at winning converts, their tenets might be playing the same sort of "here's where the Great Tradition stops" role in debates over ecumenical cooperation. But they aren't, so they don't.

As an outside observer, it seems to me that Mormonism has a divided soul - there's a yearning for acceptance within the firmament of Christianity (and a hint of self-pity concerning other Christians' unwillingness to welcome them with open arms), combined with a pride in everything that makes the Latter-Day Saints unique. I'm inclined to think the latter is the healthier sentiment for members of a young and rising faith. Attention, and the hostility that comes with it, is the price of being a successful religion, as the larger history of Christianity's rise attests: You don't see Christopher Hitchens writing polemics against the Mithraists or the cult of Isis, after all.

Comments (124)

"You don't see Christopher Hitchens writing polemics against the Mithraists or the cult of Isis, after all."

True, though he's know expanded to polemics against Hanukkah, so I guess Jews can take solace in this as a marker of their own rising influence and strength?

I also don't see Dobson bitching about Mithraists or the Cult of Isis.

Those of us with longer memories than Ross has can remember when the fundies yearned to be thought of as something other than backwoods yahoos by the "establishment" Protestant churches. They think they've achieved that now. They actually haven't - but like the Mormons, they've expanded their market share and don't have to worry as much about such things these days.

This is an excellent post by Ross.

I am struck by the extent to which these theological debates are really irrelevant to the average believer. I do understand that there are plenty of average believers who have anti-Mormon prejudices, but I don't think they are theological; I doubt that what really upsets them is the Mormons' rejection of the Nicene Creed.

And the fact is, despite the fact that protestant and Catholic THEOLOGIANS place huge emphasis on the creeds, the truth is that the average Christian-- and the average Mormon as well-- isn't likely to have an opinion as to whether God is three substances or one. The average believer just knows that he or she has faith in Jesus.

Thus, if you look at the differences between the ACTUAL RELIGIONS (i.e., the beliefs of the believers, not the hierarchies), there aren't really any unbridgeable differences between Mormons and Christians. Perhaps THAT'S what scares the hierarchies (and the small number of devout believers who obey them) so much.

I don't want to sound too flippant here. But there is the slight problem that evangelical and Catholic Christians do not believe Mormonism is a Christian religion. Whatever their older hostilities, evangelicals and Catholics for the most part always recognized one another as inheritors of the same tradition--they shared the same Bible, beliefs about God, etc. There was always ground for a minimal commonality between them. No such ground exists between the historic Christian churches and Mormonism. So whereas the evangelical and Catholic relationship can be genuinely theological, any relationship with Mormons is bound to remain at a moral and political level. The soil is much, much more shallow.

@Brian

Actually, there is a lot of common ground between Mormons, Catholics, and Protestants. All three embrace the New Testament.

I ran into a blog last night that I thought shed some light on what effects we might expect from the speech. The conversation was based largely on how different regions of our country would view the speech.

Much has been said about the south already. It is no secret that the evangelical-laden south tends to think that Mormonism is a cult. I don't think there is anything that Mitt Romney will say about Mormonism that will change that view overnight. I do think he can look America square in the eye and promise to act as a politician and not a puppet of Salt Lake City. That will help in the South if he makes it to the general election and there is not an evalengical candidate left, but may not do much in the primaries were the south has more choices.

Not much has been said about the west when it comes to the general view people have out there about Mormons. Even setting aside Utah, the western states have a long history of integration with Mormons. It is taken relatively in stride, without as much pulpit-preaching against our church, and a good level of social acceptance. The west is not generally afraid of a Mormon president by the sheer fact that they are used to Mormons.

Very little has been written about what those on the east coast of America thinks about Mormonism. The east is a much more complex equation than the south. There are far fewer Mormons in the east than there are in the west and we are looked upon as being a bit...well...exotic, I think. The east has more religious diversity than the south and has had far less anti-Mormon indoctrination than the south. I believe that the speech may help Mitt gain significant ground among those on the east coast...if he delivers it well.

I would speak of the midwest too, but I really haven't spent enough time there to tell you what others think...but my gut feeling is that the speech can go a long ways towards social acceptance of a Mormon president.

Most fundi evangelicals do not consider catholics Christian. Mormons are easier to brand with the pronouncement.

As a Mormon, I agree with most of what you have written here. Most Mormons are proud to be different from other Christian denominations. To the extent that we grumble about what other Christians think of us, it's only because of the misinformation which is constantly spread by anti-Mormons. So, for example, I couldn't care less whether some pastor in Tuscaloosa thinks we are Christian since his mind is made up. I do worry that the only thing some people "learn" about our church is the false allegation that we do not worship Jesus.

I suspect that not too far below the surface of the Religious Right one will find a deep-seated theological ambivalence: Did the religious conservatives sell-out theologically by clasping hands across what had been the ultimate divide in American religious politics?

In what way did they "sell out" theologically? Did either Catholics or Protestants change their theological beliefs? They agreed to cooperate in the political arena* - in the public square - to fight for common goals. I don't see where this involves theological selling out.

This is not to say that there isn't a lot of theological discomfort with Mormonism that is making Republican evangelicals reluctant to vote for Romney. People are afraid that electing a Mormon president will legitimate Mormonism, which from a (conservative protestant) theological perspective is troubling. I still don't think that someone who has such concerns is "selling out" theologically by voting for Romney, however.

*Note that this cooperation is not uniform - there are many Catholics and Protestants who side with the secularist in the culture wars. And there are disagreements across confessional lines on the conservative side about things like capital punishment.

Dilan,

I do understand that there are plenty of average believers who have anti-Mormon prejudices, but I don't think they are theological;
....
there aren't really any unbridgeable differences between Mormons and Christians.

So what is the source of the prejudice, then, if it's not theological, and their aren't any large differences on a more pragmatic level?

What is interesting about this whole debate is how it, in so many ways, parallels what happened 2000 years ago in Palestine. You then had your "right" (Pharisees) and your "left" (the liberal, worldly Sadducees). And then you had the true "middle", the supposdely 'new kid' on the block' "Christianity". Both the 'right' and 'left' then, as now, disparaged one another. But, much like Pontius Pilate (a Roman) and Herod (more Roman, but probably somewhat of a Sadducee), though they had enmity between them, they could find common ground in putting Jesus Christ to death.

What did Jesus do that so antagonized the Pharisees and the Sadducees? One big thing is that he claimed that God spoke anew. Divine revelatioin in any current generation is distrupting, disturbing, and difficult to control (like Lenin, Pharisees and Sadducees could find comfort in old, dead prophets—because he who interprets the law [whether of Moses or otherwise] IS the law).

Also, Jesus himself caused great controversy when he was constantly haranguing both groups for replacing the commandments and doctrine that God gave Moses and the other prophets with their own customs and traditions. They substituted, He insisted, the "traditions of men for the commandments of God."

Romney, of course, doesn't even want to go there, because he is running to be President, not the Mormon President of the United States. However, so many modern (or even 'post-modern') day Sadducees and Pharisees see the writing on the wall, so to speak. "If we actually elect this guy, we are (supposedly) legitimizing this religion or sect which we regard as teaching heresy.

And here is where some even more interesting parallels between Christians then and "Mormons" ('Latter-Day Saints') come into play. The big 'traditional Christian' doctrine that God is a 3-fer (three gods in one) is challenged by Mormonism's, three separate beings, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost, make up 'One God'. Not one in "substance" or "entity", but one in unity and purpose. That doesn't fit with their (overly?) simplistic notion that "one God" must be "one entity".

If Mitt Romney WOULD have answered the question on the YouTube/CNN Debate accurately about taking the Bible "literally", he would have said, "Mormons take the Bible more literally than anyone. However, there are parts of the Bible that 'traditional Christians' and even Jews take literally that Mormons take figuratively. For example, Adam and Eve have belly buttons. This means they were born of parents like the rest of us. And the fact that Genesis says that Adam was made of "the dust of the ground" is just another way of saying that his body is made of elements.

On the other hand, where Genesis says, "Let US go down and make man in OUR image...", we believe it REALLY means that! This implies a plurality of persons (gods, if you will) in the creation. The Bible also says that God created man "...in his image and likeness". Does God look like man? Duh! Because man looks like God!

But, furthermore, the Bible says about this "image and likeness" stuff that God created "them" "male and female"! The implication here is that there are MALE and FEMALE gods! Eliza R. Snow, early LDS poetess and prophetess wrote in the words to the LDS hymn, "Oh My Father" -

"In the heavens
are parents single?
No the thought
Makes reason stare,
Truth is reason,
Truth Eternal,
Tells me I've
A Mother there!"

Another point of contention between 'traditional Christians' and 'Latter-Day Saints' is the doctrine taught by Mormons that men can become like God.

Of course, Paul wrote that—

"5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

We are bid to follow Jesus, are we not?

And the Bible said that Jesus will sit on the throne of his father. And it also says that those who follow him will sit on that throne with him! What are the implications there?

He even gave to his disciples the explicit command to "...be ye therefore perfect" (and NOT just 'goody goody perfect') "...even as your Father in Heaven is perfect".

Whether you take this to mean to become perfect in all things as God the Father is, or to mature to be like our Father, the ultimate meaning is powerful, and far different from that taught in and by 'traditional Christianity'.

Anyway, there is much more that could be said. But this will suffice for the moment.

diligent dave

diligent dave: I am also LDS, and I have been blogging my head off lately trying to get people to talk about politics in political forums and leave the religious agendas for other outlets.

As much as we may share beliefs, I have to say that your comments are not to the point of this article and belong somewhere else.

This is a political process and we have a specific religious candidate. We are asking people to look past what they feel are religious differences and look at the candidate himself, and we need to do the same.

I find Oman's post a bit perplexing. He seems to be under the impression that conservative evangelicals and Roman Catholics justify their alliance on the ground that they share a common allegiance to the creeds, which the LDS rejects. But as a born-and-reared Southern Baptist, I can attest that SBs reject the creeds as well. TBS, the present leadership of the SBC shows much more sympathy with Catholicism than previous leaders did, but it's basically because the authoritarianism of Catholic conservatives offers a convenient justification for their own assaults on the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer. There's little more substance to it.

In any case, I suspect all this goes over the head of the ordinary evangelical believer. I was going to defend Ed Kilgore on this in a post that never got sent, so I'll do it now. I'm not convinced that there's much deep-seated anti-Mormon prejudice among rank-and-file evangelicals [or, for that matter, southerners]. To most evangelicals, religion is a matter of experience, not doctrine, and displays itself primarily in the form of good, middle-class behavior--behavior in which LDS members excel. Evangelical leaders might fulminate, but it's hard for me to see just what the average suburbanite megachurchgoer would see as threatening about Mormons; to all intents and purposes, they look and act exactly the same.

Ross said "I only object to note of self-pity at the end." Actually it is not self pity. It is a sense of failure or set back. It is trifling I know, but accurate.

Mormons accept from the outset that we are not like historical Christians in part due to our rejection of the Trinitarian view of the nature of God, Christ and The Holy Ghost and that we believe in an open canon. Maybe another distinction is that Mormon theology does not tell members what to think but how to think. That removes the ecclesiastical authority from the role as “provider of the last word” to a secondary role. Mormon theology says everyone should seek for a testimony of ALL doctrine and teaching regardless of who provided it. That makes us different in a fundamental way. It puts the onus on the believer to come into harmony with Gospel principles so he can get or maintain the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

When a member goes to his ecclesiastical authority with a personal problem one of the first things discussed is whether the person is living the principles of the Gospel. This is because failure to do so limits the Holy Ghost from playing the central role in a member’s decision making as He can’t dwell in an unworthy vessel. It is this constant companionship of the Holy Ghost that we seek. The trick is learning how to listen for His promptings and having enough self control to follow them.

One additional word. Above I said "It is this constant companionship of the Holy Ghost that we seek. The trick is learning how to listen for His promptings and having enough self control to follow them."

You may hear us say that those who claim they know all about us in fact do not. One must have the Holy Ghost's promptings in order see what is beyond the mere words on a page or understand what is just spoken.

So what is the source of the prejudice, then, if it's not theological, and their aren't any large differences on a more pragmatic level?

I am not completely sure, but a couple of hypotheses seem like they might have some weight:

1. Most of the anti-Mormon prejudice seems to be concentrated in the South. Many white Southerners carry quite a few prejudices-- against blacks, against gays, against foreigners, etc. It's not surprising that Christians who are bigoted against those different than they are would be bigoted against people who adhere to a different sort of Christianity as well.

2. As Ross noted in an earlier post, there is a competition for converts between Mormons and evangelicals. Saying bad things about Mormons may be an effective tactic of winning converts and keeping the converts they have; thus, there may be a strategic reason for church leaders to espouse anti-Mormon prejudice, and the churchgoers follow that.

Dilan Esper's assumptions may correct to a degree ("there may be a strategic reason")but given Baptists and Catholics, not confirmed) make up the lion's share of new converts to the Church it doesn't seem to be working. I do think the basic doctrinal isssues make up the most significant part of the historical Christian's disdain for Mormons. It becomes a really hard sell though when you look at who is converting.

Dilan writes: "Most of the anti-Mormon prejudice seems to be concentrated in the South. Many white Southerners carry quite a few prejudices-- against blacks, against gays, against foreigners, etc. It's not surprising that Christians who are bigoted against those different than they are would be bigoted against people who adhere to a different sort of Christianity as well."

It's also not surprising that this question comes up in the Republican race, since it is the GOP which is the default party for bigots these days. I'd bet that a poll of likely Dem voters (and include independents as well) would show that very few could correctly identify the Xian sect the Dem candidates belong to. But how many GOPers don't know that Giuliani's a dirty Papist, Romney's the Big Love guy, and Huckabee is a snakehandler?

The last time religion was a major issue in a campaign also involved the South, but we weren't in the middle of a declared Culture War then, because the virus of fundamentalist insanity was pretty much dormant.

Things have gone downhill in that department since.

Nothing happens in Western Christianity without the Catholic Church. It is the one indispensable Western institution.

To get a sense of how Christian-Mormon relations really stand--its real foundation--it might be a good idea to look at how Catholic-Mormon relations stand. This will be sobering to some: Mormons are well at the back of the line here, not even vaguely considered within the widest ambit of Christianity. Mormonism simply is not on the theological radar of Western Christianity still, which explains why all Christian-Mormon polemic always involves some backwater evangelical. That may be unfair or unsound, but there it is.

Catholics have more in common with Jews, in many ways, than they do with Mormons.

None of this bears directly on Romney, who may turn out to be (besides a god of course) a wonderful president.

I also don't see Dobson bitching about Mithraists or the Cult of Isis. Those of us with longer memories than Ross . . .

Somehow I knew that Mr. Jim Keane (MoeLarryAndJesus) couldn't help but make an entirely unhelpful, bitter and contemptuous comment to this post.

Brian writes: "Nothing happens in Western Christianity without the Catholic Church. It is the one indispensable Western institution."

Most of Western civilization has dispensed with it quite happily. It's now a growing concern in Africa and South America, and that's about it.

Thus, if you look at the differences between the ACTUAL RELIGIONS

Hrm. Dilan's probably less right than he thinks about the size of the set that has some clue about the Nicene Creed, at least among those who actually attend church regularly, but he's not that far off. Still, this identification of the "ACTUAL RELIGION" as the vague ideas of most of those who profess a faith is a bit peculiar, and a misunderstanding of religion. Not in the sense that a religion is merely a set of doctrines, but in the sense that those doctrines do shape (and emerge from) things like the liturgy and the moral teachings, which may not be very well understood by most believers, but are things they care about.

And, really, Mormonism just _isn't_ "a different form of Christianity." It's not. It's a non-Christian religion with some overlap with Christianity. Mormons don't all agree with this, obviously, but it's the most sensible definitional approach to take. Barring some quibbles over the Coptics or some such, it's reasonable to define Christianity as "Nicene creed, thanks" if you want a definition that does any defining.

Let's see... they have Jesus in the name of their Church, they use the New Testament, they believe in angels and the resurrection, they've used their god to justify their various bigotries, they kilt them some Injuns, they fancy sily titles like "bishop," they don't like Muslims much...

Yep. They sure seem like Christians to me.

Moe,

I'm maybe going to stay out of this fight because I don't think people should be too sanguine about denying others the title of Christian. I have some pretty heterodox views too, although not the same ones as the Mormons. I think Mormonism is an uncommonly silly set of beliefs, but I would let themselves call themselves Christians in the same way that early Christian heresies were Christian. Anybody who believes that Jesus Christ was the son of the one true God is a Christian in my book. But your accusations are just silly. Muslims have done quite a bit to justify anti-Muslim sentiment on the part of Christians, Hindus, Zoroastrians, and every non-Muslim who had the bad luck to have their territories stolen by the armies of the crescent. And the Catholic church was pretty much the only instution that defended the rights of indigenous people in the south and central America for hundreds of years.

Hector writes: "But your accusations are just silly. Muslims have done quite a bit to justify anti-Muslim sentiment on the part of Christians, Hindus, Zoroastrians, and every non-Muslim who had the bad luck to have their territories stolen by the armies of the crescent. And the Catholic church was pretty much the only instution that defended the rights of indigenous people in the south and central America for hundreds of years."

They didn't do a very good job of it then, Hector, did they?

Christians and Muslims have both done some pretty despicable things under cross and crescent. You can pretend the British Empire was a secular enterprise if you wish, for example. I won't. Christian bigotry towards the heathen hordes was always - always - a part of what made the British feel entitled to kill and rob at will.

Re: Sure, we'll work with the Papists," the conservative Evangelical subconscious can say to itself, "but the Mormons are one theological compromise too far.

If they are willing to work with (politically conservative) Jews why would they have a problem with (politically conservative) Mormons? Judaism is a whole order of magnitude further removed from Protestantism than the LDS is.

Re: You can pretend the British Empire was a secular enterprise if you wish, for example. I won't.

From the Glorious Revolution on down, the British Empire was very secular. Sure, the British government gave some minor assistance to Church of England missionaries, but that was about it. If you want an empiret hat had very specifically religious motives, the Spanish Empire is what you want to cite.

Uh, the British certainly were a secular enterprise, certainly by the standards of 19th century Spain or Russia. The British made little effort to convert the people of India, at least compared to the Muslim rulers. If you poll 100 Hindus in India today whether they feel more antipathy towards the Muslims or the British, I think you know what the answer would be.

And certainly, the status of American Indians in South and Central America became worse as the power of the monarchy and the church was gradually replaced by the power of mercantile bourgeoisie (first Spanish and then Criollo). The Indians had it badly in the 16th and 17th centuries, but even much worse in the 18th through early 20th. under the rule of crown-and-altar, the treatment of the Indians was at least moderated by some degree of noblesse oblige. under the rule of the Liberal oligarchies in the 19th and early 20th centuries it was pure unmoderated greed. there is a reason why Tupac Amaru the revolutionary started out as a monarchist, after all.

Jonf quotes and writes: "Re: You can pretend the British Empire was a secular enterprise if you wish, for example. I won't.

From the Glorious Revolution on down, the British Empire was very secular. Sure, the British government gave some minor assistance to Church of England missionaries, but that was about it. If you want an empiret hat had very specifically religious motives, the Spanish Empire is what you want to cite. "

I don't think you read the balance of my comments. I'll repeat: "Christian bigotry towards the heathen hordes was always - always - a part of what made the British feel entitled to kill and rob at will."

This was even true when the heathen hordes were Catholic, as they were in Ireland. Check out the adventures of Oliver Cromwell, Mass Murderer For Jesus, as he killed his way across Ireland under the cross.

Hector replies: "Uh, the British certainly were a secular enterprise, certainly by the standards of 19th century Spain or Russia."

Right, and Dumbya Bush isn't much of a fascist when compared to Hitler. Fortunately I don't make my judgments by the standards of 19th century Spain or Hitler - I make them by the standards of an educated 21st-century rational secularist. By that standard the British Empire reeked of Christian arrogance and the assumption that it was on a mission from gawd. (Just as today's GOP loves to talk about "American exceptionalism" and so forth.)

Haven't you read your Kipling, Hector? Check out "Recessional."

I don't know why Jehovah's Witnesses were ever even mentioned in the article.

Everybody knows they are completely separate from the world, and even under pain of death never involve themselves in ANYBODY's politics, actively or passively.

If anybody understands what the author was trying to say, please email me at Tom.Rook@Technik-SA.US.

Thank You

"You don't see Christopher Hitchens writing polemics against the Mithraists or the cult of Isis, after all."

Oh, if he knew how many of us there still are, and the Texas-size can of whoop-ass we are planning on opening up on him, Hitchens would be writing some polemics for sure, I'll tell ya.

I'm actually totally on the same page as Ross about the self-pity part. I've always been a bit proud of my religion's unique points and irritated by the suck-up urge that seems to infect portions of the LDS conscious.

I also think this "are Mormons Christian" debate is rather juvenile at its heart. Mormonism still hasn't managed to completely break free of its American beginnings and take up its birthright as the first major world religion since Muhammad walked out of the desert hundreds of years ago. This debate of "yes we are!" "no you're not!" seems like a spat with our Protestant mummy and daddy that we haven't grown out of yet.

Who cares if the Southern Baptists think we're Christian or not? This is a purely American debate and therefore is not really becoming for a new world faith. No one else in the world really gives a flying leap whether Mormonism has arrived in the USA or not.

Mormonism is better served concerning itself with how to challenge Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and Buddhism on the world stage than worrying whether the Christian Right likes us or not.

Time to grow up and start exhibiting some cultural maturity.

As a non-Mormon, I'm obviously an outsider to this part of the conversation, but I like Seth R.'s comments. Mormonism is a global religion, and it makes sense for it to start thinking of itself in non-US-centered terms. Plus, those last two sentences show some stones rather than cultural cringe, and that's something worthy of praise.

In many ways, Mormonism and Unitarian Universalism are worth analyzing as post-Christian religions (I know many if not most Mormons might dispute that description, but it's one worth using for a lot of reasons, some of which Seth R. has alluded to) that have emerged from modern American society. Granted, the latter group is much smaller, but it tends to draw its members from the more prosperous parts of society, so its influence is bigger than its numbers. As Europe has become post-Christian, it has leaned to atheism. As the US has become post-Christian, it has leaned to new forms of religious expression. That's a subject worth exploring.

The anti-Mormon movement was started by the Christian-Right leadership. They resented the Mormons for converting so many of their members because it hit them in the pocketbook. The anti-Mormon movement was then perpetuated by the liberal press, as they like nothing better than bashing people and stirring up hatred.

It appears to me that the Mormon Church has always been one of the first groups to respond to floods, fires, hurricanes and other disasters. They do this as a Church and also encourage members to be generous on a personal level. Most of the Mormons with whom I'm acquainted are decent people who try to raise families with Christian values, and are pretty good neighbors.

If you want to vote for someone other than Mitt Romney, that's fine, but do it because of some reason other than the fact that he is Mormon.

Mormons aren't all that desirous of being welcomed to the 'Christian table.' Sure, we would love to work more closely with our Christian friends, and enjoy less acrimony and theological disputes. But if people want to look at us as "different," I don't know of one Mormon who would resent that point of view.

What is irritating at least and hurtful at most is the accusation that we are not Christian. The implication is that we do not believe in Jesus Christ, do not follow Him, do not honor or worship Him, or even deny Him. It is a false characterization of our faith, and it denies the words, actions and most personal and deeply held beliefs of millions in the Son of God.

Seth R says: "I also think this "are Mormons Christian" debate is rather juvenile at its heart. Mormonism still hasn't managed to completely break free of its American beginnings and take up its birthright as the first major world religion since Muhammad walked out of the desert hundreds of years ago."

You forgot the Sikhs and the Baha'i and the Scientologists.

Man, religion cracks me up.

Oh, and the Moonies. How could I forget those guys? They even have their own wingnut newspaper.

umm, i hate to point out that reason right thinking religious people hate hate mormons is that

1) MORMONS ARE FREAKY AND CLANNISH
2) JOSEPH SMITH WAS A FRAUD
3) THEY HAVE MULTIPLE WIVES
4) THEIR RELIGION WAS MADE UP
5) THEY PRETEND THEY ARE CHRISTIAN


Sure, we'll tolerate some weirdos (Sikhs, Hare Krishna, Amish, Hasidic Jews, Moonies) but don't try to buy the Presidency. Well, I guess the Moonies tried as well.

If y'all find Mormons (who do accept Jesus as God) beyond the pale, it's pretty obvious that the first part of "Judaeo-Christian" is merely a polite noise. Not that that should count as news.

Hello-Mormons are mainstream and 'normal' compared to oppressive Jehovah's Witnesses

Who are Jehovah's Witnesses?
Up close and personal Jehovah's Witnesses can be wolves in sheep's clothing.
Think about this-When the devil comes knocking on your door he may not have the 'dark goth look'.They could be smartly dressed and wielding the Christian Bible.

The central core dogma of the Watchtower is Jesus second coming (invisibly) in 1914 and is a lie.Jehovah's Witnesses are a spin-off of the man made Millerite movement of 1840.
A destructive cult of false teachings, that frequently result in spiritual and psychological abuse, as well as needless deaths (bogus blood transfusion ban).
Yes,you can 'check out anytime you want but you can never leave',because they can and will hold your family hostage.

The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world.
----
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years and 3rd generation

I enjoyed your post, but I disagree with one of your comments. I do not believe that the "theological distance" between Mormonism and Catholicism or Mormonism and Protestantism is any greater than the "theological distance" between Catholicism and Protestantism. All three of these branches of the Christian tree are substantially different from one another. Likewise, all three share many commonalities.

I don't think that many people understand, or even care to understand, what Mormons mean when they insist on the term "Christian." The best way to understand is to quote two opposing, but for many Mormons complimentary, statements here:

"I also think this "are Mormons Christian" debate is rather juvenile at its heart. Mormonism still hasn't managed to completely break free of its American beginnings and take up its birthright as the first major world religion since Muhammad walked out of the desert hundreds of years ago. This debate of "yes we are!" "no you're not!" seems like a spat with our Protestant mummy and daddy that we haven't grown out of yet."

This should be followed by:

"What is irritating at least and hurtful at most is the accusation that we are not Christian. The implication is that we do not believe in Jesus Christ, do not follow Him, do not honor or worship Him, or even deny Him. It is a false characterization of our faith, and it denies the words, actions and most personal and deeply held beliefs of millions in the Son of God."

Regardless of what the poster of the first quote said, most Mormons don't care to be part of the greater Christian family. They know there are huge differences that they are proud to hold. What irks them is that those who insist Mormons aren't Christians are denying a deeply felt, never rejected, belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and even God (even if meant in a different context). And Mormons don't like getting told they believe in a "different Jesus" because that is code word for doesn't believe in the New Testament that Mormons do believe in, even if interpretations are different.

To put it another way. Mormons don't care if they are called different. They do recognize and are proud of that. What they don't like is to be called different in ways that deny (no matter how "exact doctrinal or historical" the classification) core beliefs and self-identification. Now, if people would say Mormons are non-Creed Christians or even non-traditionalist Christians then I don't know very many Mormons who would object. To say Mormons are non-Christian is insulting because to 99 percent of the population it has nothing to do with the Trinity or different theological beliefs, but a belief in Jesus Christ as Savior, Divine, and the center of worship. That is why Mormons will always call other Christians by that very name even with strong religious differences and a belief in a singular authority.

"You forgot the Sikhs and the Baha'i and the Scientologists."

Nope Moe, I deliberately left them out. I've studied them a bit, and I don't consider any of them a "major" world religion.

Jettboy, not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but...

Do Mormons "worship" Jesus?

Think carefully about it, because I'm not sure it's clear that we do. However, it is fairly clear to me that most other Christians do.

"Do Mormons "worship" Jesus?"

It is a matter of what you mean by worship. Insofar as Jesus is a member of the Godhead then I would say yes almost as much as any Trinitarian. Of course, as you and I both know, this has been a question on the bloggernacle for some time. The subject to me has about as much importance as how many angels can sit on the head of a pin - arcane and of little practical value.

Jettboy,

Your post, though heartfelt, is a jumble of contradictions.

The term "Christian" is not one the New Testament is much concerned with, so haggling over who has the rights to it is silly. You are, of course, completely free to identify yourself as Christian. God alone will decide. The questions is whether Christians and Mormons are united in faith in God. On that they manifestly are not. Here we must simply be honest and not succumb to theological vagueness.

Christians are monotheists through and through. Mormons are not. The difference could hardly be wider or starker or more important. Christian faith stands on the belief that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the one God of Israel. There is no fudging on the matter of monotheism. If Christian faith is not monotheist, I say to hell with it.

Seth R quotes and replies: ""You forgot the Sikhs and the Baha'i and the Scientologists."

Nope Moe, I deliberately left them out. I've studied them a bit, and I don't consider any of them a "major" world religion."

The Sikhs, who outnumber Mormons and have been around much longer, probably could feel the same way about your gang. But I hope they'd have the sense not to.

Scientology is much more recent, but growing quickly, and I find the parallels between it and Mormonism to be very interesting.

"Christians are monotheists through and through."

Most Jewish and Islamic scholars would disagree heartily with you on this score. And I think they'd be right.

The only way you guys are monotheists is through some sort of "same-yet-different" philosophical gobbledygook about the trinity that even trained theologians don't understand and can't explain in a way that makes sense to anyone.

Christianity isn't monotheist. It's henotheist at best.

Seth R quotes and writes: ""Christians are monotheists through and through."

Most Jewish and Islamic scholars would disagree heartily with you on this score. And I think they'd be right.

The only way you guys are monotheists is through some sort of "same-yet-different" philosophical gobbledygook about the trinity that even trained theologians don't understand and can't explain in a way that makes sense to anyone."

I'd have to agree here. Then there's also Satan, who fills a god role found in other mythologies. Add him to the list.

It's funny how theists lack the most basic ability to "cast a cold eye" on their own little faith-based ghetto, but Seth is here able to do so quite accurately when assessing another sect's fantasies. I love it.

Seth-

I don't intend to get into a theological debate on a blog. The point is that Christians understand themselves to be monotheists, not fundamentally but essentially. Mormons, by way of contrast, understand themselves not to be monotheists, fundamentally and essentially.

There is no greater religious difference possible. This is as big a theological division as one could possibly imagine. Everything else pales by comparison. Nothing else matters by comparison. The word "god" functions ENTIRELY different in these two contexts. We need not have a pointless polemical exchange to recognize this basic fact. This is a matter of empiricism.

"I don't intend to get into a theological debate on a blog."

Then why did you bring it up?

And you're wrong. Most Mormons actually do consider themselves monotheists and do see themselves that way for the simple reason that they worship one God. God the Father, Eloheim, end of story.

Of course, they'd also be wrong, by many definitions of "monotheism", which is not only worship of, but belief in, one, and only one God. While Mormons worship only one, their theology teaches that there is more than one. So yeah, Mormons certainly don't qualify as monotheists in an academic sense. Like other Christians, I think henotheist is a better descriptor.

But most Mormons do consider themselves monotheists, make no mistake.

One thing is clear - they aren't polytheists. That would be belief-in AND worship-of multiple gods. And Mormons clearly don't do that.

Moe actually illustrates a good point about all these interfaith squabbles though - they end up giving all religions a black eye. We nit-pick over our various specialized definitions and fight our turf wars while the atheists sit back, pop open a beer and enjoy the fireworks.

As a result, my feeling is that a lot of the more aggressive religious debates end up as circular firing squads.

umm, i hate to point out that reason right thinking religious people hate hate mormons is that

1) MORMONS ARE FREAKY AND CLANNISH

Actually, I find religious conservatives who homeschool their kids and try to withdraw from society much more freaky and clannish than Mormons, who are out in the world participating and prosletyzing, getting educated, etc.

2) JOSEPH SMITH WAS A FRAUD

Christian history is full of frauds.

3) THEY HAVE MULTIPLE WIVES

No, they don't.

4) THEIR RELIGION WAS MADE UP

So was every other religion.

5) THEY PRETEND THEY ARE CHRISTIAN

Since, at least on earth, there is no governing body that gets to decide who is and isn't a Christian (and since it is all untrue anyway), there is no "pretense" about it. They are no less Christian than most Christian believers.

Christians are monotheists through and through. Mormons are not.

Plenty of non-Mormon Christians are either not monotheists at all or don't have any opinion one way or the other on the issue.

Here's the deal I will make with any conservative Christian who insists that Mormons aren't Christians: if you are willing to classify ALL the non-Nicene Creed Christian believers as non-Christian, AND to give up all the power and influence that comes from being a majority religion and instead proclaim that Christians are a minority religion that Americans should pay no more attention to than we pay to, say, Muslims, then fine, I will accept your argument that Mormons are not Christians.

But that's never going to happen. You guys WANT the power that comes from the claim that 90 percent of America is Christian. You don't want to give that up. You just want to single out certain Christian groups that you don't like for bigotry.

I make them by the standards of an educated 21st-century rational secularist. By that standard the British Empire reeked of Christian arrogance and the assumption that it was on a mission from gawd.

And this is pretty much a summary of why you don't have any kind of actual understanding of history. One curious thing, for the time and place, about the British Empire was how secular it was. You lack imagination and the ability to see things in their context -- the mark of a certain kind of particularly boneheaded modern person, I guess.

Christian bigotry towards the heathen hordes was always - always - a part of what made the British feel entitled to kill and rob at will.

The problem is that there's little specifically Christian about that bigotry -- as far as I can tell from observing history it is fairly close to a universal human trait, where one group has a lot more power than another. It may be hard for some modernist folks to grasp, but thinking that other people are wrong and inferior for believing in different gods is, uh, pretty much par for the human course.

Dilan,

Huh? I can imagine a large number of American Christians don't know diddly squat about the Nicene Creed, but they're not (generally) conscious and proclaimed disbelievers in it either. I mean, many Americans may be "moral therapeutic Deists" or whatever, but I'm curious -- who are the self-identified Christians you think _aren't monotheistic_? Is there something I don't know about the Presbyterians. It's not the Baptists, I know, because I'm related to a bunch of Baptists. Whatever their faults, they are monotheistic folks.

The Church has never made "not really knowing much about the creed's content" a critical point, to my knowledge -- we're not Gnostics, who believe in salvation by knowledge. Faith in the person of Jesus Christ is the thing. Having half-assed or ignorant views without willful rejection of the creed in knowledge isn't heresy -- it's the normal condition of much of the flock throughout history. But it's a different matter to explicitly believe something definitively contradictory to the creed.

The Mormon church isn't Christian even if many individual Mormons don't know enough about their theology to be considered "non-Nicene creed" believers, and their actual beliefs are, essentially, Christian, in the sense of worshipping one God. Who is the Father and the son and the Holy Spirit.

TMoC quotes and replies: "I make them by the standards of an educated 21st-century rational secularist. By that standard the British Empire reeked of Christian arrogance and the assumption that it was on a mission from gawd.

And this is pretty much a summary of why you don't have any kind of actual understanding of history. One curious thing, for the time and place, about the British Empire was how secular it was. You lack imagination and the ability to see things in their context -- the mark of a certain kind of particularly boneheaded modern person, I guess."

Spare me, chuckles. I know a great deal about history and I have a fine imagination. Your own cheerleading for Christianity and Christian apologists like Chesterton is your real problem here. You will always - in every single instance - give every possible benefit of the doubt to Christians who share your, uh, bent. And I see no reason to do that. You probably don't think there was much of a religious aspect to the Third Reich, either, and you'd be wrong there, too.

"Christian bigotry towards the heathen hordes was always - always - a part of what made the British feel entitled to kill and rob at will.

The problem is that there's little specifically Christian about that bigotry -- as far as I can tell from observing history it is fairly close to a universal human trait, where one group has a lot more power than another. It may be hard for some modernist folks to grasp, but thinking that other people are wrong and inferior for believing in different gods is, uh, pretty much par for the human course."

Of course it is. And when Christians do it, they almost always use their faith to justify it. That happened during the slave trade, it happened with the Spanish conquest of Latin America, it's happening now with the Bushpigs and their idiotic crusade, and it happened with the British Empire - not just occasionally, but over and over again. Here - read something and learn a little instead of shooting your mouth off on a subject you're thoroughly ignorant about:

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/HistoryofChristianity/EarlyChurch/?view=usa&ci=9780199218042

Moe,

There was indeed not much of a religious aspect to the Third Reich, if by religious you mean Christian. Hitler talked openly about his plans to supplant Christianity with Nazism as the official religion of the state.

incidentally, the explicitly Christian right wing regimes in places like Spain, pre-1935 Austria, and Greece were considerably less brutal and evil than the explicitly secular fascist states in Germany and Italy. The Spanish Falangist regime, despite its ostentatiouly anti_Jewish rhetoric, conspicuously failed to participate in the Holocaust. One could almost conclude that the Christian nature of these regimes was the one thing that saved them from sliding into true evil and did something to moderate their excesses. One could, but evidently you won't.

One could look similarly at the record of the Christian Spanish empire in the Americas, and compare it to the secular English and Dutch. Hint: lots and lots more Indians died under the rule of the British and Dutch, whose policy was fairly openly genocidal, than under the Spanish, whose policy was never genocidal. The Church in fact did much to moderate the treatment of the Native Americans and to advocate for them. You might want to read up a bit on the reducciones of Paraguay while you're at it.

Britain was a thoroughly secular empire which made little effort to convert (certainly not through the agency of the State) the people under its rule. Ask any Indian Hindu who was a worse overlord in terms of religious oppression and forced conversion, the British or the Muslims.

As a Mormon I don't claim to or want to be considered another sect or branch of 'traditional' Christianity. And I don't claim or demand any right from anyone else that I don't need to live my religion or my life - like their acceptance or their largess in any political or religious discussion. And I certainly don’t want anyone to believe something they don’t want to believe, which was my position throughout my Mormon mission and my life now

But I do feel constrained to enter the dialogue whenever a critic of Mormonism erects a theological straw man argument about why they don’t like or won’t vote for a Mormon, and ignorantly, negligently, or willfully misrepresent what Mormons actually believe.

Further, I do feel constrained to continue to point out that many anti-Mormon critics refuse to allow Mormons to define themselves, and continue to insist that Mormons do not believe what they actually do believe, or say Mormons believe what Mormons in fact do not believe.

And I do want to state as forcefully as I can, that to treat other people in such a manner that you don’t allow them the space to define themselves and take it at face value, but instead continue to contradict their own personal claims (i.e. “I believe X”; “No you don’t you believe Y”) – to do this reveals intellectual dishonesty and a complete lack of respect of other people.

And I would like to call out and shame the liberal establishment that would normally come to the defense of a group against which such tactics were used, but for whatever reason are sitting on their hands and not condemning the anti-Mormon slander and hate that we’re all being bathed with.

I’m sure I don’t need to belabor the point that that if they’ll blatantly and shamelessly lie and distort to condemn a Mormon, they’ll lie to condemn you also someday when you are in their crosshairs or path.

Hector writes: "There was indeed not much of a religious aspect to the Third Reich, if by religious you mean Christian. Hitler talked openly about his plans to supplant Christianity with Nazism as the official religion of the state."

Sorry, Hector, but despite the constant and many efforts of Christian apologists to say otherwise, there was an explicitly Christian bent to German fascism. Look up the phrases "Gott mit uns" and "kinder, kirche, kuchen" just for laughs. Or read Mein Kampf's many kind references to your lord. Hitler wanted to make the Church an arm of the state, he didn't want to get rid of it.

That anti-Semitism was a driving force for the Nazis wasn't an accident - it was a constant in German Christianity, and Martin Luther himself wrote the basic blueprint for the Holocaust in his pamphlet "On the Jews and Their Lies." When a nation that's overwhelmingly Christian decides to eradicate Jews it's a little hard to pretend that religion had nothing to do with it.

Goebbels referred to a great struggle between Christ and Marx and had his children baptized. Goering did, as well.

Moe,

How do you refute the point that I made above, that when fascism WAS given an explicitly Christian coloration (in places like Spain, Greece, and South America) it was considerably less barbaric and evil than it was in Germany?

Even if you believe (which i don't not for an instant) that Nazi Germany was 'Christian', even you would have to concede that a place like Spain, or Greece, or Argentina was much MORE 'Christian', yet for some reason none of those countries sponsored death camps or anything of that nature.

CC writes: "And I would like to call out and shame the liberal establishment that would normally come to the defense of a group against which such tactics were used, but for whatever reason are sitting on their hands and not condemning the anti-Mormon slander and hate that we’re all being bathed with."

In reality the ONLY people I see defending Romney against this sort of crap and calling Huckabee ad company out on it are "liberals." I no longer think the "establishment" is liberal, if indeed it ever really was. Perhaps you should stop the self-pity long enough to see who your real enemies are.

One more time - "liberal" Massachusetts voted Romney into office and his religion was a non-issue. Sure, it came up, but outside of a few cranks no one cared - and the cranks were shot down as bigots.

Hector again: "Even if you believe (which i don't not for an instant) that Nazi Germany was 'Christian', even you would have to concede that a place like Spain, or Greece, or Argentina was much MORE 'Christian', yet for some reason none of those countries sponsored death camps or anything of that nature."

This smells like the stupid "Mormons aren't Christian" debate again, Hector. You're pretending no other factors count, and I won't do that. That Hitler was crazier and more bloodthirsty than Franco doesn't mean he was "less Christian." George Bush is a war criminal who uses torture - he's also very, very Christian. There's no contradiction between evil behavior and being a Christian at all, even though you would like to believe there is. We have too many long centuries to show otherwise.

LM&J,

You are entirely correct (except about the self-pity. well, maybe a little about the self-pity)

I'm not blind to who our enemies are, and I have actually started considering whether I could vote for Obama (probably yes) or HRC (tougher, but maybe.) That's how much my eyes have been opened in the last week.

Moe, you're just being illiterate here, I think, or letting ideology poison your reading. Neither Hector nor I are claiming that (1) Christians haven't done awful things or (2) that they never did them in the name of Christ.

We are noting that your one-sided black-only portrait is absurd, and shows a stunning historical ignorance. I'm not sure what your OUP book is supposed to show -- nobody sane is denying that the Anglican church was a potent force in shaping the ideas of the time in Britain. We're not idiots. We're noting that, by comparison to the other empires of the time, the British empire was more secular. Actually, this possibly had some positive effects -- the Indian rule was brutal but in some ways left a better heritage of orderly government than more Christian rules elsewhere, possibly because of that secular nature. The British being, by and large, less religious than the French or Spanish may be part of the reason the British have considerably more talent, so far, in good, orderly, government.

The British being "more secular" is relative -- they weren't secular the way Britain is now, or the way Sweden is, but they were more secular. And yes, the churches were a big influence up until this century, and into it -- including _very much_ in the beginnings of British socialism.

Hector isn't arguing "because Hitler was a bloodier dictator, he was less Christian than Franco" -- he's arguing that Franco was very explicitly a """Throne""" and Altar Catholic, with a religious character to his government. Hitler was not, and though he used Christianity in many places, he also made anti-Christian statements and had a very strong interest in pagan and occult ideas. He was, on any level one can think of, less straightforwardly Christian than Franco (or the other examples Hector states), and the Nazi relationship to the Church was much, much, more antagonistic and problematic than in those other cases. To deny this is to show a peculiar ignorance of the Third Reich -- I can point you to some OUP (or perhaps Yale? aren't you a Yale man?) books that might inform you here, if you wish.

Neither Hector nor I imagines that people can be avowed Christians and do terrible things. You seem to deny that Christianity can have any good effects whatsoever, or that its moral teachings can moderate human nastiness at times. That's a flatly ahistorical view, as absurd as a claim that Islam only causes violence and disaster, rather than also serving as a force to free slaves and build a fairly nice (at one time) civilization that had something to be said for it.

There's a genetic determinist argument that bad men are bad and good men are good and that culture and environment and religion have little influence either way, but it's not that strong at present. There's no way, without sheer dishonesty, to arrive at your "Christianity only inspires evil" conclusions.

TMoC again: "We are noting that your one-sided black-only portrait is absurd, and shows a stunning historical ignorance. I'm not sure what your OUP book is supposed to show -- nobody sane is denying that the Anglican church was a potent force in shaping the ideas of the time in Britain. We're not idiots. We're noting that, by comparison to the other empires of the time, the British empire was more secular. Actually, this possibly had some positive effects -- the Indian rule was brutal but in some ways left a better heritage of orderly government than more Christian rules elsewhere, possibly because of that secular nature. The British being, by and large, less religious than the French or Spanish may be part of the reason the British have considerably more talent, so far, in good, orderly, government."

Uh, what "other empires of the time" are you referring to? The British Empire was not less secular than Napoleonic France, by a long shot. Franco had no empire to speak of.

The Indian rule was brutal, and so was the rule in Ireland, and that's what "good, orderly government" meant in reality. That's the nature of colonialism.

I haven't presented a "black-only" view - I'm presenting the black because it is certainly there, and Christians are never willing to do it. Your reflexive need to exalt Christianity above other world views is your problem, not mine.

When our own American Empire (and please don't pretend it doesn't exist) was more secular we behaved better than we do under your fellow Crusaders. We had more respect in the world at large then, too, because we deserved it.

Gawd Shave The Queen! (Why doesn't anyone ever mention her mustache?)

When was this the US behaved so well on the world front? The US has varied wildly in behavior, in general. BUSH is very Christian, but the architects of Iraq are hardly a lot of evangelical or Catholic heavyweights.

I'm not sure what Franco's empire has to do with the time of the British Empire. There was British colonial and imperial behavior for a pretty long time period. Compare to Spain and France.

Heaven knows I'm not denying that Indian or Irish rule were brutal.

Again, I'm not sure what your point is, other than a delusion that Hector or I have presented a history where Christians never did anything bad.

I've said a lot more about the crimes and sins of Christians than you have about anything good they did, which suggests who is trying to stick to facts and who is interested only in propaganda.

There is one problem with Ross' post. Mormons believe that their beliefs are grounded in the New Testament and the early Church Fathers, and that Mormon beliefs are identical to the beliefs of the earliest Christians. So, even if Mormons had no desire to try and fit in with the largely Christian population of the U.S. they would still want to claim to be the "real" Christians. Their desire to be considered a part of Christianity is grounded in the nature of Mormonism's theological claims, not in any any political or cultural strategy of assimilation. The problem is that despite the fact that Mormon and Christians both use of the New testament and certain terms and phrases, the theological claims that Mormons make about God are so radically different from the claims that Christians make about Him that it is impossible for Christians to see any common ground with Mormons, at least at the level of theology. Mormonism is similar, in this respect, to other great heresies in the history of the Church such as Manicheanism.

TMoC replies: "Again, I'm not sure what your point is, other than a delusion that Hector or I have presented a history where Christians never did anything bad.

I've said a lot more about the crimes and sins of Christians than you have about anything good they did, which suggests who is trying to stick to facts and who is interested only in propaganda."

This is getting stupid. I point out - quite rightly - that Christians who did bad things justified their actions through the prism of their religion - and as always, you and Hector get defensive. Grow up, and take your constant claims about my "ignorance" of history and jam them in your sepulchre, chuckles. That the various Christian colonial powers all - to some degree or another - viewed their status as Christians as yet another justification for lording it over the heathens isn't a radical viewpoint. It isn't even especially controversial. The German fascists didn't seek to exterminate Jews in a religious/cultural vacuum - they did it because to a German Christian being anti-Semitic was as natural as celebrating Easter.

You folks want to have it both ways - you want to make your religions central to political life, but then you want to deny any connection when things go horribly wrong.

I'll give you another chance to tell me which "other empires of the time" were "less secular" than the British Empire, since you blew it off, but what that has to do with my point is one of those mysteries of faith, like what happened to the Holy Foreskin.

And I would like to call out and shame the liberal establishment that would normally come to the defense of a group against which such tactics were used, but for whatever reason are sitting on their hands and not condemning the anti-Mormon slander and hate that we’re all being bathed with.

CC, you are actually dead wrong on this. There's been quite a lot of liberals in the media defending Romney against the anti-Mormon bigotry, and further, he got elected in Massachusetts precisely because of the votes of religiously tolerant liberals. Indeed, a Mormon with liberal views has no problem reaching the highest levels of the Democratic Party-- see Reid, Harry.

It is in the white Republican dominated South where bigotry would prevent a Mormon from getting elected.

The problem is that despite the fact that Mormon and Christians both use of the New testament and certain terms and phrases, the theological claims that Mormons make about God are so radically different from the claims that Christians make about Him that it is impossible for Christians to see any common ground with Mormons, at least at the level of theology.

But that's only a problem for theologians.

Whether ordinary believers can work together and get along has more to do with how tolerant people are of those with different beliefs. Ordinary believers generlly don't give a crap about theological questions.

You can see this in Southern White Protestants' views about Catholics and Jews. For years, they were bigoted towards them (as they still are towards gays, blacks, and foreigners). Now, the anti-Catholicism and anti-Semitism has for the most part faded away down there. The theological differences, of course, never changed. What changed is that the Southern evangelicals decided not to be bigoted towards those groups anymore.

Bush is "very" Christian? He doesn't even go to Church. Cheny, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice- none of them are what I would characterize as especially Christian in their rhetoric or behavior. They're certainly not social conservatives, in any case. They've played Christian conservatives for fools, really. Nor, obviously are Wolfowitz, or most of that crew over at the Weekly Standard, Christians.

Most of my friends are pretty hard core Catholics or Orthodox. And very few who support the Iraq War. So could we please dispense with this meme that the affair is a Christian Crusade?

And Moe: like most atheists, you really should wipe the foam off your face and calm down. Your bigotry is really pathetic. Religion isn't the source of all evil, and does not explain human cruelty. Rid the world of religion, and we'll still be butchering each other. Trust me. Your secular utopia would just be a lot less poetic and interesting than Renaissance Florence (say), and devoid of much of the altruistic behavior that most types of religion encourages. You can sneer all you want, just go hang with Kim Jong Il. He's an atheist, no? As were Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Marquis de Sade, etc. Nice guys. Their contempt for religion had nothing to do at all with their contempt for humanity, I'm sure.

As for Mitt, and his Mormonism: there are too many objectionable and disquieting things about it all to count. Let me touch on just a few: What is Mitt's attitude toward the covenants he made through baptism into the LDS church? Is his first responsibility to the church and its leaders? If Gordon Hinckley asks him to jump, will he? And how high? What about Mormon faith in American exceptionalism? Is the Constitution divinely inspired? If so, what does that mean? From his rhetoric it's clear Mitt is taking hits off the same crack pipe as the neo-cons. My concern is that he may be even more wildly messianic than they.

George Dubya's master is Mammon. We all know his score. Is it the same with Mitt? Or is he really Mormon first, and if so what does that mean?

I mean, I probably know more than most "gentiles" about the LDS church, but I'm still very unsure of what they are really all about. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but all the weird assonances and associations with Masonry and Islam make me very queasy. Fuse Islam with Catholicism, and cloak it in the culture of Evangelical Protestantism. That's the Latter Day Saints in a nut shell, and that, to me, is weird. Very weird.

And I'm sorry to say all this, it because I am oddly fond of Mormons. Meeting and hanging with Mormon missionaries in far flung places used to be a sort of hobby of mine. You know, like "Where's Waldo," but paired, and on (say) the streets of Athens. Good fun. I've never met a Mormon that I haven't liked, personally. Not one, and I've met hundreds.

Which, come to think of it, is even weirder.

Charles, the only "normal" people are the ones you don't know well. Everyone else is pretty-much nuts in one way or another.

Uh, the British certainly were a secular enterprise, certainly by the standards of 19th century Spain or Russia.

Was Hector's contention, and I think that (by and large) that's true. It wandered off into the woods from there, but that's where things started.

Part of the confusion here has to do with timespans -- we somehow ended up with the early Spanish new world conquests and a lot of other things coming in. More generally, though, it would make me happy to see you (Moe) grant that somebody, somewhere, might have done something GOOD because of Christianity. Do you think that's possible?

The theological differences, of course, never changed.

Well, given the alternatives, Catholicism looks less different than, say, atheism or hedonist agnosticism. And really, Catholicism is closer to evangelicals than Mormonism, by a whole whole whole whole whole whole lot. I mean, no planets when WE die. The "would they vote for a Jew for president" test hasn't really been done, has it?

Charles writes: "And Moe: like most atheists, you really should wipe the foam off your face and calm down. Your bigotry is really pathetic. Religion isn't the source of all evil, and does not explain human cruelty. Rid the world of religion, and we'll still be butchering each other. Trust me. Your secular utopia would just be a lot less poetic and interesting than Renaissance Florence (say), and devoid of much of the altruistic behavior that most types of religion encourages."

This is truly stupid stuff, chuckles. Of course I've never said - never even thought - that religion was "the source of all evil." Nor do I have any desire to rid the world of it. I think it's a fascinating subject and a great source for comedy. So find another straw man, strap yourself to it, and light it on fire.

Saucy, Moe.. tres saucy. Ah, So I'm Stupid, aye? Hmmm.. Why so derisive? I mean, what's with the mockery & disrespect? I think Mormonism is a rank heresy and say so. But I have nothing but respect for Mormons as people. When I disagree with them, I mean no disrespect. So why the mockery for what billions hold sacred? You could criticize and disagree without insulting people, you know.

Well, I'm glad all the folly amuses you, anyway. Will do my best to keep you continually amused.

"Most of my friends are pretty hard core Catholics or Orthodox. And very few who support the Iraq War. So could we please dispense with this meme that the affair is a Christian Crusade?"

That's nice, Charles, but the fact is that the staunchest supporters of the Iraq War and George W. Bush have been conservative Evangelical Christians. With all due respect, anti-Iraq War Catholic or Orthodox theocons aren't particularly relevant in American politics today, and they certainly aren't the main portion of the grassroots of the Christian Right, which is to say, the grassroots of the Republican Party, particularly in red states. While it may not be completely accurate to call Bush's misadventures a Christian Crusade (although many supporters of those misadventures have been happy to do so, see e.g.: General William Boykin), it's not completely inaccurate to do so, either.

TMoC asks: "More generally, though, it would make me happy to see you (Moe) grant that somebody, somewhere, might have done something GOOD because of Christianity. Do you think that's possible?"

Of course. Nothing I have ever said here or anywhere else has said or even implied otherwise.

Charles replies: "Saucy, Moe.. tres saucy. Ah, So I'm Stupid, aye? Hmmm.. Why so derisive? I mean, what's with the mockery & disrespect? I think Mormonism is a rank heresy and say so. But I have nothing but respect for Mormons as people. When I disagree with them, I mean no disrespect. So why the mockery for what billions hold sacred? You could criticize and disagree without insulting people, you know."

Yes, I could. And sometimes I do.

And I didn't say you were stupid, of course. I said your comment was "stupid stuff." Perhaps the distinction escapes you because you are indeed stupid.

But, uh, "rank heresy"? Who talks like that these days? Along with the "saucy" and the "aye," I would say that even if you're not stupid, you're a fool.

Sure, Mark. They're warmongers, along with a lot of Jewish folks. As well as some staunch secularists like Chris Hitchens. And perhaps some oil & defense industry tycoons & flacks.

You can say that my type may not be particularly relevant. I wearily grant you that, for the moment. But we do exist. Just so you know, I consider myself more to the left than right. If it weren't for those sexual issues, I would probably be perfectly at home in a Democratic party true to the ideals of FDR, Al Smith & William Jennings Bryant. Wendell Berry & Hilaire Belloc. You know, communitarian distributists. Whose policies would probably be "slandered" as socialist and environmentalist by the corporatist goons running things today.

But whatever. Tradegy for all of us. The Left emasculated itself when it lost people like me. You have a whole generation of devout Catholics running around thinking it's "conservative" and in their interest to give KBR no bid contracts and crap like that. Nice work. Unnecessary scorn for the faithful like what Moe spews does us all well.

So as you say, we're irrelevant, now. But what we represent will matter again, very soon. Believe me.

Smart guy, Moe. I get the nuance. Where I come from, though (less rarefied digs than yours, I bet) when you call what someone says "stupid stuff" with a sneer, such subtlety is usually unappreciated.

Not saying I would personally want to sucker punch you, but I have friends who might. Assuming you were dumb enough to be that rude to them.. I hope you're more circumspect in person.

As for my affectations, they amuse me. Air of false sophistication, self parody, you know.

And I don't deny being a fool.

i just had one of the creepy mormons come up to me in the washingtion snow. two asian girls. they wanted to know if i knew there was a living savior.


these people are not christians.

Charles says: "If it weren't for those sexual issues, I would probably be perfectly at home in a Democratic party true to the ideals of FDR, Al Smith & William Jennings Bryant. Wendell Berry & Hilaire Belloc. You know, communitarian distributists. Whose policies would probably be "slandered" as socialist and environmentalist by the corporatist goons running things today.

But whatever. Tradegy for all of us. The Left emasculated itself when it lost people like me. You have a whole generation of devout Catholics running around thinking it's "conservative" and in their interest to give KBR no bid contracts and crap like that. Nice work. Unnecessary scorn for the faithful like what Moe spews does us all well.

So as you say, we're irrelevant, now. But what we represent will matter again, very soon. Believe me. "

Oh, great. Charles is just a garden variety homo-hatin' dude. What a "tradegy."

I'd have to say that any party which loses a Charles has gained much more in return. And with all of his "saucy" and "aye" and "William Jennings Bryant" (sic) nonsense, I'd say Charles should look to his own shorts and discover what "emasculated" really means. If that's too much for him to manage all by his lonesome maybe Larry Craig can give him a hand.

Oh, and Moe, "Rank Heresy" is probably not something that's ever passed your lips. I do understand. But where I am from the phrase enjoys some currency. When someone knowingly denies the Incarnation (and thus to my febrile little mind human personhood) that term is generally applied, as for example.

So that's how it is.

Actually, no. I don't hate 'homosexuals.' I just think the concept incoherent. Sort of oxymoronic. Because the behavior the word connotes isn't sexual at all. As for me & Larry Craig, I don't do Republicans.

William Jennings Bryant for all his flaws is a pretty interesting figure. Populist, agrarian, anti-corporate. He's worth some thought. But your bigotry blinds you to that, huh? Can't get past that monkey trial thing? Ah, the prejudice.. too sad.

And, well, that's where the conversation probably ends. Because there's really nothing more to say.

Hi Marquis,

Interesting comments. I should maybe have acknowledged that Britain wasn't a thoroughly secular state, in the modern sense. (Although there is a very ancient tradition, going back to the English Reformation, of people in Catholic countries mocking England as essentially a materialist country without any spiritual aspirations...'nation of shopkeepers' and all that.) It was probably more similar to the US today where religion influences popular values and popular values influence governmnent policy. Compare this to, say, 17th century Spain, or 19th century Russia, where the state and the church were inseparable.

And it's true of course (though conservatives might like to deny it) that British socialism had roots in religious motivations (unlike the socialists movemnents on the Continent which regrettably tended to become dominated by secularists, with some exceptions of course.) I was under the impression though that the religious currents inspiring the Labor Party and others further to its left tended to be evangelical Protestant rather than Anglican, at least in the 19th century (I know the Anglicans became more liberal in the 20th).

Moe,

To call George Bush and his band of merry thugs a Crusader is to do an injustice to the real Crusades (which were not, by the way, without justification). He's no friend of mine, and I'm not sure why you think he would be. I voted for Kerry.

Charles again: "William Jennings Bryant for all his flaws is a pretty interesting figure. Populist, agrarian, anti-corporate. He's worth some thought. But your bigotry blinds you to that, huh? Can't get past that monkey trial thing? Ah, the prejudice.. too sad."

If he's worth some thought - and he was, the unfortunate lapse into stupidity of the Scopes Trial notwithstanding - then it's probably worth learning how to spell his name, chuckles. How could you miss my earlier correction?

Are you really this stupid or is it an act?


Moe,

Uh, no, the trade that the Democrats made was a very very bad one indeed. You lost the economically progressive, "communitarian distributist" Catholic vote, especially in the Midwest, and you picked up the votes of people like those #@$%s on 'Sex and the City.' The kind of people who will happily screw over working people, third world countries and the environment but vote Democrat as long as they can have their abortions. These are the kind of people that the Democratic Party is gradually becoming.

And it's not so much 'the sexual issues' in general that is the problem. I don't know too many people who care enough about homosexuality to vote on that basis. The problem is abortion. The Democrats condemned themselves to political oblivion the day they embraced abortion.

I would vote for a purple cow before I vote Republican, but I'm seriously considering not voting at all next year, if the Democrats keep on with their abortiomania. Or maybe I'll write in Bob Casey or something like that.

Jeez, Moe. I've been told that my IQ is 2 standard deviations above the mean, whatever that means. Must mean I'm stupid. So I can't spell. Whatever, man. Go ahead. Mock a man for his inadvertent weaknesses.

You probably pick on Downs Syndrome kids? The few that are left, now that we're euthanizing 90% of them in the womb, I mean. That's what I mean about sexual issues, dude. I could care less who you bugger. Carry on. Just leave me out of it.

As for the Scopes Trial, I sorta disagree with Bryant (hah you know who I mean) on that, too. On his Biblical literalism, I mean. But on the principle he was attempting to defend, the sacredness of the human *person,* I heartily back him. Evolution is a scientific theory. It's contingent, partial, open to revision & retraction. Sort of like Ptolemaic & Aristotelean Cosmology was.. Faith though, is not. It is of a higher order of experience. Much more emphatic.

The faith is that we are each sacred, and free, made in the image and likeness of our apophatically known, yet paradoxically incarnate God. That's what this debate with the Mormons. is all about. That's why their theology is suspect. It really does matter.

But whatever. You refuse to get it. So you won't. To each his own. Materialism and license. Cluster Bombs. Latex. Sweat Shops. Good times.

Bugger on. Bugger on.

Hector, I'll just remember that you're new to this country and take your assessment of who and what Democrats are with a grain of salt.

As for "abortiomania," it's about issue #17 in importance on the Democratic side these days. #1 is that the White House is currently occupied by diseased maggots, and that simply has to change.

By the way, in January of 2009 the Democrats will e in control of the White House and both houses of Congress. You may think that's "political oblivion," but we must have very different dictionaries.

Charles writes: "You probably pick on Downs Syndrome kids? The few that are left, now that we're euthanizing 90% of them in the womb, I mean. That's what I mean about sexual issues, dude. I could care less who you bugger. Carry on. Just leave me out of it.

As for the Scopes Trial, I sorta disagree with Bryant (hah you know who I mean) on that, too. On his Biblical literalism, I mean. But on the principle he was attempting to defend, the sacredness of the human *person,* I heartily back him. Evolution is a scientific theory. It's contingent, partial, open to revision & retraction. Sort of like Ptolemaic & Aristotelean Cosmology was.. Faith though, is not. It is of a higher order of experience. Much more emphatic.

The faith is that we are each sacred, and free, made in the image and likeness of our apophatically known, yet paradoxically incarnate God. That's what this debate with the Mormons. is all about. That's why their theology is suspect. It really does matter.

But whatever. You refuse to get it. So you won't. To each his own. Materialism and license. Cluster Bombs. Latex. Sweat Shops. Good times.

Bugger on. Bugger on. "

I'm not gay, chuckles. You probably should be, though. I get the feeling you'd be happier.

But for now keep crawling up the balloon knot of your obsessive theology. Hold your breath and think of England.

Uh, I'm not new to this country, Moe. I lived abroad for three years as a development worker, but I was born here and as American as the next man.

It's not just me who says that the Democrats made a terrible political, as well as moral, mistake, by embracing Roe vs. Wade.

Abortiomania may be a low ranking issue for many Democrats. Indeed, there are quite a number of pro-life Democratic congressmen, even in Blue states. Hell, one of the two US congressmen representing the city of Boston has a zero rating from NARAL. But the Democratic Party keeps them in a pro-life political ghetto. Steve Lynch has a safe seat, but will never be able to run for anything above US Congress (probably not even MA Senator or Governor, certainly not President). The same goes for Bob Casey, Jim Langevin, and all the other pro-life Democrats out there. Before you bring up Harry Reid, he was only allowed to become Speaker because he promised Pelosi that he wouldn't vote on a pro-life basis.

Sorry, Hector - I guess I assumed you were a recent immigrant because, frankly, you seem to know a whole lot more about foreign affairs than you do about realities in this country. For instance, Harry Reid isn't "Speaker." He's the Senate Majority Leader, and he isn't beholden to the dreaded Pelosi for that.

You know Moe, I like it when you call me chuckles. Makes me smile.

But you're being a little tough on Hector. You're being too snide (spelling, Speaker not Senate Majority Leader? Come on man. You say I need to get laid, sounds as though you need an epidural or a liter of hooch.. Take care of yourself, man. Stop picking on retards and immigrants. It's unbecoming.)


Anyway, the message I think he and I are trying to send you is that the Dems owe their ascendancy to the fact that quite a few people like me, who had never knowingly voted for a pro choice candidate in their lives, even for dog catcher, voted a straight democratic ticket last midterm, under the delirious misconception that Nancy Pelosi was actually going to do something about the war. No such luck. Quelle naif.

You see the problem here? There's between 10%-20% (if not more) of the electorate who would swing Democratic, if it weren't for abortion. Period. Now, the fact that probably half of all democrats are vociferously pro-choice means that we're all screwed. Pro lifers who burn to vote Social Democrat are out of luck. As are the Dems. This war has created a temporary distortion. The Dems are dreaming if they think their platform (as it has stood for the past thirty years) has been endorsed by even a plurality of the people.

You've thrown the plutocracy a fat bone, thirty years gnawn.

We're going to see things change, though. Watch.

Actually, no. I don't hate 'homosexuals.' I just think the concept incoherent. Sort of oxymoronic. Because the behavior the word connotes isn't sexual at all.

Refusing to recognize that people exist and who they are is a form of bigotry. The quoted statement is indistinguishable from Mahmoud Ahmadenijad's view that there are no homosexuals in Iran.

Charles writes: "You see the problem here? There's between 10%-20% (if not more) of the electorate who would swing Democratic, if it weren't for abortion. Period."

So use a tampon.

(Pause while Charles figures that out.)

10-20%? Which orifice did you pull that one out of?

I think you fetus fetishists grossly overestimate the importance of your issue to the electorate.

As for the Speaker/Majority Leader bit, it's not a spelling/typo issue. Pelosi isn't a member of the Senate and certainly had no control over Reid getting the nod there. Hector's claim is a fabrication wrapped in a fantasy and swaddled in lifer nonsense.

Dilan writes: "Refusing to recognize that people exist and who they are is a form of bigotry. The quoted statement is indistinguishable from Mahmoud Ahmadenijad's view that there are no homosexuals in Iran."

It comes from the same vapid pool of theistic certainty, too.

It's getting late, here. So I drink one more glass of wine. Tap a few more letters to my new friends Moe and Dilan.

Same vapid pool of theistic certainty? You insult both the Shia and the ancient anchorites of the Eastern Desert. Saint Basil Pray for us. Saint Thomas Aquinas, a Beckett, More and the Doubter, Pray for us.

You all don't get it. You know what a tampon is for. To stop the blood. The baby is born. We bleed for love.

Deus natus est.

Pax.

Carlo.

Moe,

OK, you got me. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi in different legislative bodies. Regardless, the point stamnds. Harry Reid made a deal with the ruling circles of the Democratic Party that he would not aggressively pursue a pro-life agenda. Do you think it's an accident that he suddenly becamne much more weakly pro-life the minute he was chosen Majority Leader?

Dilan,

It may be factually incorrect, but it isn't 'bigoted' to believe that homosexuality may not be genetic,nor is it 'bigoted' to be morally oppsed to homosexuality (which I am not, necessarily, I'm still agnostic about that).

Hrm. Hector -- yes, the Anglican currents were much more in the 20th century, and the pre-20th roots are almost completely nonconformist. But the actual welfare state was built in the 20th century, so the Anglicans did, as I understand it, get in on the game (I'm no expert on this, just had a friend who was a political history prof. and this was his research area).

Moe -- well, there's an interesting point that (while I don't buy it, for the most part) the "there are no homosexuals, per se" line is more akin to a good bit of ancient thought on the matter in places where homosexual encounters were not strongly stigmatized, and has its adherents on the gay left now -- I think Gore Vidal could arguably be placed in this line of thought.

Though I don't think he'd say homosexual sex is "not sexual activity" exactly.

Also, Hector -- his votes thus far don't particularly convince me that Bob Casey is actually, these days, very much against abortion.

He voted recently against preserving the Mexico City policy, which means he's on record (essentially, I think, despite some weaseling he expressed after the votes) as supporting (and increasing!) funding for abortions overseas.

Maybe Casey is pro-life in the US, though he hasn't enough votes related on the books to say too much about that, but wants to pay for them if it's for nasty foreigners? That seems more like a Pat Robertson position than a Democratic position, though.

It may be factually incorrect, but it isn't 'bigoted' to believe that homosexuality may not be genetic,nor is it 'bigoted' to be morally oppsed to homosexuality (which I am not, necessarily, I'm still agnostic about that).

1. It is bigoted to deny that gays exist. That's different than the argument as to whether it is an orientation or a preference.

2. Just to be clear, I don't think religious people get a free pass on gay bashing either. It is true that it is not bigoted to think homosexuality is a sin. It IS bigoted, however, to want the legal system to do anything to disadvantage gays and lesbians. It is especially bigoted to endorse laws to throw people in jail because they are gay, which is what many conservatives did until Lawrence v. Texas-- a decision conservatives hate-- stopped the practice.

There are many things that religious people consider sinful but which they don't want the legal system to do anything out. Singling out gays and lesbians for legal discrimination therefore has nothing to do with whether it is a sin and everything to do with hating gays and lesbians and wanting to make their lives as miserable as possible so that they convert to heterosexuality.

Romney and others can claim that Mormonism is a religion as much as they want but that will never change the fact that Mormonism is a cult. And if the President of the Mormon Church decides that God told him to influence US policy...you better believe that he would be on the phone with Romney telling him exactly what to do. I am someone with a Bachelor's degree in both Bible & Religion and fully understand that Mormonism is a cult and why. A cult is any group (regardless of size) that interprets the doctrines of a religion in an unorthodox fashion. Unlike Religions which create their doctrines based on interpretation of book(s)of scriptures within their context, cults create their doctrines first and then take the scriptures from the books of other religions and force them outside of their context to fit the twisted ideologies of the cult. Cults have come out of all religions and Christianity is no exception. The 2 largest cults that have come from out of Christianity have been the Jehovah's Witness cult and the Mormon Cult. Next time someone tries to tell you that Mormonism is Christian, keep in mind that Mormon doctrine teaches that their god was once a physical human being who attained god status (the Adam God doctrine of Mormonism), there is no trinity, Jesus Christ and Satan are half brothers (Satan was not an angel created by God), Blacks were once considered a cursed race by God (until civil rights movements made that inconvenient), Women are second class citizens and will be eternally pregnant with their Mormon husband in the after life ruling over their own planet, you can baptize the dead by proxy using the living and lastly, Mormonism fails every test of archaeology as nothing claimed by Joseph Smith has never been found.

In retrospect, those who have done their homework regarding the Book of Mormon are pretty clear that there was never any Book of Mormon and that Joseph Smith stole a draft of a fiction story titled “A View of the Hebrews” and published it under the heading of “Book of Mormon. Ultimately, Mormonism fits every parameter of a cult and like all cults...they can change their doctrines at the drop of a hat which is something true religions never need to do. They may claim to believe in God and Jesus Christ but they are referring to a totally different God and a totally different Jesus Christ compared to Christianity.

Dilan writes: "There are many things that religious people consider sinful but which they don't want the legal system to do anything out. Singling out gays and lesbians for legal discrimination therefore has nothing to do with whether it is a sin and everything to do with hating gays and lesbians and wanting to make their lives as miserable as possible so that they convert to heterosexuality."

I can't recall the last time I heard a Christian fundie call for the recriminalization of adultery or the abolition of no-fault divorce, for example. But that would have anything to do with the fact that divorce rates in the Buybull Belt states greatly exceed those in places like Massachusetts and New York, would it? Nah, couldn't be.

And if the President of the Mormon Church decides that God told him to influence US policy...you better believe that he would be on the phone with Romney telling him exactly what to do.

This is the same load of crap that anti-Catholic bigots used agianst JFK, only it was the Pope rather than Gordon Hinckley.

Show me the evidence that Mitt Romney, as Governor of Massachussetts or even as chair of the Salt Lake Olympic Organizing Committee, took orders from the LDS Church. Show me the evidence that other Mormon politicians, like Romney's father, Reed Smoot, Ezra Taft Benson, Orrin Hatch, or Harry Ried, take orders from the Church.

It's a total slander.

Moe,

Uh, I believe that the Catholic and evangelical Protestant churches have been fighting to prevent the legalization of divorce in Chile and the Philippines, which I believe are the two countries where it remains illegal. The Catholic chruch did its best to fight against no-fault divorce laws when they came into effect here as well. You can think that's a good thing or a bad thing (personally I think divorces should be legal, though harder to get than today)but you can't argue they don't put their beliefs into practice.

And actually, adultery is illegal in the US, and of course I do think that the laws against it should be enforced at least to the tune of a small fine. I suspect that most traditionally religious people would like to crack down on easy divorce and adultery in the same way that they would against homosexuality. I'm not sure why you think they don't.

It is not bigoted to not want the legal system to give homosexuality the same moral acceptance and approbation as we do the congress of man and woman.

Marquis,

Well, the problem with the Mexico City policy is that, unfortunately, many of the same organizations that fund contraception in the developing world also fund abortions. While it would be nice to cut off funding that went for abortions in third world countries, we would also prevent some of the good that these organizations do in terms of family planning, birth control, etc. (A problem that doesn't have an analogue in the US, where contraception is not hard to find). this isn't to say that I support funding organizations that carry out abortions overseas, but it is certainly a more complex issue.

Bob Casey is at least more pro-life than the median American voter, and is as much opposed to abortion as anyone on the Democratic side these days.

Hector replies: "And actually, adultery is illegal in the US, and of course I do think that the laws against it should be enforced at least to the tune of a small fine. I suspect that most traditionally religious people would like to crack down on easy divorce and adultery in the same way that they would against homosexuality. I'm not sure why you think they don't."

I think they don't because in practice they don't and they haven't, and because "traditionally religious people" engage in those behaviors as much or more than their fellow citizens do, Hec. But then I'm a member of the reality-based community, and I go by what people do rather than by what they advise others to do.

It is true that penalties for adultery are still on the books in some states, but I doubt that prosecuting such cases is plausible after the Lawrence decision, and a prosecutor pursuing such nonsense would hopefully be booted out of office by the voters in any sane jurisdiction.

"It is not bigoted to not want the legal system to give homosexuality the same moral acceptance and approbation as we do the congress of man and woman."

I disagree, and quite strongly. I don't think the legal system has any business treating those two cases differently at all, and I think only bigots want it to. Fortunately, despite arch-fascist Scalia's chagrin, the Supreme Court threw out the sodomy laws.

Lawrence v. Texas-- a decision conservatives hate

Hold up. You can be of the Clarence Thomas school of thought (which I tend towards) and think that 1) anti-sodomy laws are really bad laws, and I would vote against them despite my clear moral disapproval of sodomy but 2) Lawrence was badly decided, in that the Constitution, itself, doesn't rule out such laws (as the Supreme Court had ruled fairly recently, to boot).

and because "traditionally religious people" engage in those behaviors as much or more than their fellow citizens do

Not clear -- I think there are statistics showing

1) yeah, divorce (and adultery) rates are higher in the Bible Belt
(ok definitely statistics on divorce, and I think on adultery too to the extent we have good stats on that at all)

but 2) adultery may be significantly less common among subscribers to a traditional religion who attend church weekly.

Massing everyone who's nominally Christian (or an entire region!) and using stats to show things about "religious believers" of the sort who power traditionalist religious involvement in politics isn't very useful. Voting patterns aren't very different for nominal Christians and the general public, but weekly churchgoers vote (and some evidence suggests, behave) much more conservatively.

but

2)

Hold up. You can be of the Clarence Thomas school of thought (which I tend towards) and think that 1) anti-sodomy laws are really bad laws, and I would vote against them despite my clear moral disapproval of sodomy but 2) Lawrence was badly decided, in that the Constitution, itself, doesn't rule out such laws (as the Supreme Court had ruled fairly recently, to boot).

Marquis, I totally agree that this is not a bigoted position. And indeed, I have complimented Thomas-- and condemned Scalia-- because Thomas understood that he was voting to uphold a stupid law, whereas Scalia idiotically thought he was defending Western civilization.

But I have a couple of observations about conservatives and Lawrence:

1. Lawrence came 20 years after Bowers v. Hardwick, which upheld the same laws on a narrow, 5-4 vote. Conservatives who believed that these laws were stupid had 20 years to get them off the books. Instead, not only did they keep them there, they actually passed MORE of them. Many conservatives LIKED these laws.

Had conservatives agreed with liberals to get rid of these laws, there never would have been a Lawrence v. Texas. The Court was cleaning up after the political process, which left a big piece of excrement in many state criminal codes because politicians were catering to homophobic constituents. As a result, you got a decision that many conservatives hate. It could have been avoided, it was entirely predictable, and conservatives didn't avoid it because either they really hate gays and lesbians or at the very least they don't have the guts to tell their constituents that whatever one thinks of gays, it isn't right to lock them up for who they are. So the Court had to do something that conservatives should have done themselves.

2. Many conservatives endorsed the Scalia position, not the Thomas position. In other words, the go on and on about Lawrence and how it legitimizes gay marriage and threatens western civilization and improperly calls into question all "morals" legislation, etc., and NEVER condemn the laws as bad laws. Indeed, I wouldn't read ANYTHING into conservative opposition to Lawrence if most of them just said, as Thomas essentially did, "bad law, but that doesn't justify finding a new right in the Constitution". But if you read the pieces that conservatives actually wrote in response to the decision, you just don't see any willingness to admit that this was a bad law, and plenty of hollering about how these laws were actually the bulwarks of western civilization.

THAT's clearly homophobia.

Dilan,

Ah, but see, even if I think those laws were dumb, I have this lunatic idea called "democracy" and "federalism." If the good (or bad) people of Texas want to pass that law, and it doesn't conflict with the Constitution, I don't stop them, see. I may disagree, or vote otherwise, but I respect that it's within the realm of valid laws of the United States.

Note that I think the sodomy laws are bad laws because of 1) enforcement and privacy concerns and 2) a general "having a law that out-of-step with the general morality, where it doesn't concern first-order objectives such as protecting life and limb, causes problems" -- not a deep-rooted antipathy to official hostility to sodomy.

That is, I think these are bad laws, but I grant that reasonable people can differ from me on this point.

Marquis, you really think that a "reasonable" person can believe that it is OK to throw a man in jail for 3 years (Texas) or 20 years (Georgia) for having sex with another man?

Sorry, that's not reasonable at all.

At bottom, what this is about is whether one thinks that the state has a legitimate interest in making life miserable for gays and lesbians so that they will have an incentive to become heterosexual or stay in the closet. I admit that is different from the constitutional question, which is why I don't condemn Thomas. But anyone who thinks that there is a legitimate state interest in making life miserable for gays and lesbians is a bigoted homophobe.

TMoC writes: " I have this lunatic idea called "democracy" and "federalism." If the good (or bad) people of Texas want to pass that law, and it doesn't conflict with the Constitution, I don't stop them, see. I may disagree, or vote otherwise, but I respect that it's within the realm of valid laws of the United States.

Note that I think the sodomy laws are bad laws because of 1) enforcement and privacy concerns and 2) a general "having a law that out-of-step with the general morality, where it doesn't concern first-order objectives such as protecting life and limb, causes problems" -- not a deep-rooted antipathy to official hostility to sodomy."

Very few "strict constructionists" would today argue that Plessy v. Ferguson - the "separate but equal" decision - was correctly decided. But they'll still insist that Bowers was okay, and that Lawrence is wrong, because their private bigotries still have sympathy for the position Lawrence obliterated.

TMoC thinks homosexuality is a sin and may not actually want to see homosexuals jailed, but if they are it's WAY down on his list of concerns. This is true of almost every "conservative religious traditionalist" I know.

That the sodomy laws were being enforced almost exclusively against homosexuals is undeniable - as is the fact that heterosexual sodomy is almost universal in this country. (Remember that oral sex is also "sodomy" and then wonder why Scalia wouldn't answer when he was asked if his own marriage contained this activity.)

TMoC would support the right of states to jail people for picking their nose, given his argument here. I'm glad that when Lawrence was decided we (barely) had enough brainpower on the Supreme Court to disagree.

I always thought that Blackmun (and Powell, really) had the better of the argument in Bowers, so I didn't mind the result in Lawrence, although I didn't agree with all the reasoning. But I'm (mostly) of the Breyer school of constitutional interpretation, and get a little frustrated with the constant Thomas/Scalia contention that somehow their "textualist" interpretation is completely pure, objective and somehow isn't based on their own personal preferences in a similar manner as the "activist" judges they dislike. (not that I'm arguing that they're being dishonest, I do believe they are attempting to apply an objective strict constructionist standard, I just think that is a much harder proposition than it sounds)

By the way, a few people have mentioned that states have the right to pass bad laws - that's true, of course, but it's worth mentioning that neither Congress nor the states are permitted to pass lousy laws just because they don't specifically violate the Constitution. Laws still have to pass a "rational basis" test and serve a legitimate governmental purpose, loosely speaking. Of course, that is a slippery standard to apply, but at the very least we should be able to agree that, say a discriminatory law (and not all sodomy laws prohibited heterosexual sodomy as well) for which is not a rational means to a purpose legitimately pursued by government (a law pursued only for purposes of discrimination, for example) doesn't pass Constitutional muster. That kind of law would violate the Necessary and Proper Clause, if not the Equal Protection Clause (if it were discriminatory).

Now, that's not to say that there could never be a rational basis for discrimination against homosexuals (certainly, if I were a judge I could think of some laws that certainly would), but I'm highly skeptical that there is in most cases - and certainly I'm skeptical that the sodomy laws in Lawrence pass even that low standard.


Don't listen to the lie's of poor old DannyH above. He has become mentally warped from abusing prescription drugs and now spends his time suing the companies that tried to help him! What a Hypocrite. Just google for yourself and see!

Too much to follow here. However I imagine it's been mentioned that Mormons were seen as particularly "other" or "outside the norm" for most of the history predating the "Evangelical/Catholic Alliance." Reed Smoot entering the Senate in 1903 caused hearings. Catholics I believe have been in the Senate from the beginning, or at least since 1800.

Anyway in Eisenhower's time the Republican party was more mainline Protestant (Most Lutheranism, Congregationalist, Methodist, most Presbyterianism, Episcopalians) and focused on fiscal conservativism. I'm not sure Mormons fared too well politically in the South or even with Democrats before the 1970s. This is not as true of Catholics as there was often a few notable Catholic politicians in the South.

Now Protestants in the Republican party tend to be more Evangelical than Mainline. So religion matters more. Although to be honest I don't think there's been that many serious Mormon contenders for Presidency. Mo Udall and the elder Romney is all I find.

Dilan,

If it were possible for most homosexuals to become heterosexual, then it would eminently serve an important government purpose to encourage them to do so. The purpose would be their own spiritual and moral welfare. The goal of the State is to encourage the spiritual as well as the material welfare of all its citizenry, to encourage the cultivation of all the virtues within its citizens. Read Plato- or if your preference doesn't run to Plato, read Rousseau. I'm not sure what else you might imagine is the purpose of the State, if that isn't it. The 'Lawrence' law might have served an important purpose, had it actually been effective at accomplishing that purpose.

Now as it turns out, homosexuality is probably an innate condition, and it is highly unlikely that a homosexual person can change their orientation (although probably less unlikely than some social liberals think). Given that, laws prohibiting sodomy would probably have little effect, and serve little purpose. But that doesn't mean that the intention of such laws was wrong or evil. and it doesn't mean that we should accept the premise that the State should treat gay and straight sex the same way.

If it were possible for most homosexuals to become heterosexual, then it would eminently serve an important government purpose to encourage them to do so. The purpose would be their own spiritual and moral welfare.

Hector, that is total bigotry.

To see why, read this sentence:

"If it were possible for most Catholics to become atheists, then it would eminently serve an important government purpose to encourage them to do so. The purpose would be their own spiritual and moral welfare."

The point is, someone who thinks that the government should point its guns at people-- and this is what we are talking about when we are talking about sodomy laws-- to try to force them to have sex with people they are not attracted to rather than people they are attracted to obviously fundamentally hates gays and lesbians, in the same way that someone who thinks the government should use those guns to force people not to be Catholics hates Catholics.

You can dress this up as "morality" all you want, but the fact of the matter is, gays and lesbians exist, and you either don't have any problem with that or you want to use government power to stamp them out. And anyone who has the latter view is a bigoted homophobe.

Dilan,

I'm not a Catholic, and nor am I a bigoted homophobe. I have gay friends, and currently have a gay employer. I certainly don't 'hate' any of them.

The point is not to force anyone to have sex with anyone else (presumably a traditionalist Catholic would think that gay and lesbian people ought not to have sex at all). The Catholic position differs from you, Dilan, in that they don't think sex is the be-all and end-all of life. They encourage many people to embrace the celibate lifestyle, not just gays and lesbians.

And if we were talking about trying to get people to 'change', presumably it would be a complete moral and emotional transformation, akin to conversion. Such that by the end of it men would be sincerely attracted to women, not just faking it. I believe that such a transformation is possible, in the same way that I believe that it was possible for Blessed Paul the Apostle. It wouldn't be a case of stamping out gay people, it would be a case of trying to inspire people to aspire to a higher mode of existence.

If it is proven by science (which it may eventually be) that it is highly unlikely for most gay people to be able to change their sexual orientation, then I would accept that (even while I do assert that it's possible in some cases). And if it's unlikely enough, then I would accept that the costs in terms of making gay people miserbale is not worth the benefit in encouraging virtue (since the benefit is sufficiently rarely achieved). And I would accept that sodomy laws ought not to be on the books. (In point of fact I do mostly accept those premises, and so I do think that sodomy laws no longer ought to be on the books.) But that doesn't mean that the laws were evil. Their purpose was to embody the fundamental truth that men and women are essentially different (although equal in intelligence, character and ability) as much as gender-bending postmodernists might like to argue otherwise, and that men and women are untimately destined for each other.

Hector, the more you address this, the more pathetic it gets. Your denial of your own obvious bigotry is more than a little disturbing.

"I'm not a Catholic, and nor am I a bigoted homophobe. I have gay friends, and currently have a gay employer. I certainly don't 'hate' any of them."

Some of your best friends are gay!

Is it possible you don't know how that sounds, and what the history of that sort of statement is?

"The point is not to force anyone to have sex with anyone else (presumably a traditionalist Catholic would think that gay and lesbian people ought not to have sex at all). The Catholic position differs from you, Dilan, in that they don't think sex is the be-all and end-all of life. They encourage many people to embrace the celibate lifestyle, not just gays and lesbians. "

Right... they don't hate homosexuals, they just want to make it illegal for them to have sex.

Jesus effing Christ!


Uh, Moe, _I_ don't want to prevent them from having sex. I already mentioned that I think that the anti-sodomy laws were probably not accomplishing much of a purpose.

Do you think that someone like Tolstoy who was opposed to sexual intercourse in general, was a bigot?

Do you think that a Catholic who is opposed to sexual intercourse except for procreation is a bigot?

Do you think that the Carpocratians, who celebrated homosexuality as better than the straight version, were bigots?

Do you think that the ancient Greeks and medieval Muslims and Florentines who likewise sneered at straight intercourse were also bigots?

I can think that those people were wrong, and I can think that the Carpocratians, Florentines etc. were probably inspired by evil, without considering any of them bigots.

And yes, I do have gay friends and employers. What the hell am I supposed to say about it? It doesn't make me a bigot.

Hector, I am sure Moe will give you the same answer. It's not that people who think that same sex relations are sinful and opposite sex relations aren't are bigots. That's a religious / moral question that anyone has a right to an opinion on.

But the desire to use the law to police that, to make the lives of those who have same sex relations miserable enough so as to at least attempt (whether successful or not) to force them to be straight or celibate, is bigoted. Especially when we are talking about long prison sentences.

Dilan wrote: Especially when we are talking about long prison sentences.

This was essentially Powell's argument in Bowers - it's impossible to, with a straight face, make the argument that sodomy laws exist for the well being of homosexuals when the statute carried a maximum sentence of 20 years for a single homosexual act. Think about that for a moment.

In my opinion sodomy laws, as they were enforced, was despicable. People who didn't like their gay neighbors would call the police to report a domestic disturbance when they thought the couple was having sex, pretending that they were concerned for the couple's well being, then when the police showed up the couple would be engaged in homosexual sex and the cops would arrest them. The Cops could only get in to arrest Hardwick on a summons for littering.

That doesn't mean that the people who support sodomy laws, or indeed those who passed them, are all bigoted. I don't believe that for a moment, and I don't intend to endorse homosexual conduct. But the laws, the way they were carried out and enforced, were not an appropriate or legitimate use of government. I've heard rational (but unpersuasive) arguments to the contrary about how those laws benefit society as a whole, but to argue that they were to the benefit of homosexuals just won't fly.

By the way, Powell regretted his decision in Bowers almost immediately after the decision was laid down, and always maintained that it was his single biggest mistake on the court. (Powell affirmed the state's right to pass sodomy laws but voiced doubts that the maximum penalty was constitutional under th 8th amendment - it didn't affect his decision because Georgia decline to prosecute Hardwick after releasing him from jail).

Hugo,

As I mentioned above, I don't personally think that the laws on the books in Bowers, were good, fair or just. Long prison sentences for a single homosexual act seem more than a bit excessive. I was trying to make the point that the intent behind these laws, even if mistaken, was not bigoted. I don't believe that homosexual activity should be criminalized, but neither do I believe the law should treat it as the equivalent of the natural congress of man and woman. It's an unfortunate, probably inborn and innate condition that most people cannot escape. I think that we should tolerate and accept it, but not celebrate or endorse it.

I would quibble with you about one thing- I think that the only ground on which such laws could be justified, is if they are for the moral welfare of the homosexuals themselves. If they don't fulfil that test, and you can make a good case that they didn't, then they are probably not justifiable. It is more justifiable to coerce somebody for his own good, than for your good or the good of a third person.

Also, my impression that pre-Lawrence, sodomy laws were generally used by prosecutors in cases of rape or sexual abuse where the actual use of force was hard to prove- the prosecutors would try to get the lesser charge of sodomy to stick when they couldn't nail the guy on the bigger charge of rape. Perhaps you can correct me on that?

Hector wrote: Also, my impression that pre-Lawrence, sodomy laws were generally used by prosecutors in cases of rape or sexual abuse where the actual use of force was hard to prove- the prosecutors would try to get the lesser charge of sodomy to stick when they couldn't nail the guy on the bigger charge of rape. Perhaps you can correct me on that?

That's generally correct - and most certainly true in the cases of how sodomy laws were used pre-WWII. Later on, the fact that sodomy laws were so seldomly enforced, and had been normally enforced only in rape cases, almost made them more unfair in cases in which they were deployed against homosexuals because it essentially conflated homosexual sex with rape. Chief Justice Burger's obsession with homosexuality in his concurring opinion in the Bowers case is telling as the Georgia law at issue did not confine itself to homosexual activity, but Burger's opinion did. In addition, even as late as Lawrence, 9 states only prohibited same-sex acts of sodomy, which meant that generally speaking, the laws could not be deployed in this manner in rape cases (since the vast majority of rapes are committed by men against women).