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Hating Rightey

17 Jan 2008 11:04 am

Like Daniel Larison I was not entirely persuaded by Arthur Brooks' analysis of liberal hatemongering, which draws on data showing that liberals hate conservatives as much if not more than conservatives hate liberals, and that liberal Bush-hatred is far more intense than right-wing Clinton-hatred was in the late 1990s. Still, the numbers themselves are pretty interesting:

In 2004, the University of Michigan's American National Election Studies (ANES) survey asked about 1,200 American adults to give their thermometer scores of various groups. People in this survey who called themselves "conservative" or "very conservative" did have a fairly low opinion of liberals -- they gave them an average thermometer score of 39. The score that liberals give conservatives: 38. Looking only at people who said they are "extremely conservative" or "extremely liberal," the right gave the left a score of 27; the left gives the right an icy 23. So much for the liberal tolerance edge.

Some might argue that this is simply a reflection of the current political climate, which is influenced by strong feelings about the current occupants of the White House. And sure enough, those on the extreme left give President Bush an average temperature of 15 and Vice President Cheney a 16. Sixty percent of this group gives both men the absolute lowest score: zero.

That's today; now here's similar data from 1998, the height of Clinton Derangement Syndrome on the Right:

... Bill Clinton and Al Gore were hardly popular among conservatives. Still, in the 1998 ANES survey, Messrs. Clinton and Gore both received a perfectly-respectable average temperature of 45 from those who called themselves extremely conservative. While 28% of the far right gave Clinton a temperature of zero, Gore got a zero from just 10%. The bottom line is that there is simply no comparison between the current hatred the extreme left has for Messrs. Bush and Cheney, and the hostility the extreme right had for Messrs. Clinton and Gore in the late 1990s.

In his haste to tar liberals as greater "hatemongers" than conservatives, I think Brooks glides too quickly to the conclusion that intense antipathy of this sort is ipso facto irrational:

Does this refute the stereotype that right-wingers are "haters" while left-wingers are not? Liberals will say that the comparison is unfair, because Mr. Bush is so much worse than Mr. Clinton ever was. Yes, Mr. Clinton may have been imperfect, but Mr. Bush -- whom people on the far left routinely compare to Hitler -- is evil. This of course destroys the liberal stereotype even more eloquently than the data. The very essence of intolerance is to dehumanize the people with whom you disagree by asserting that they are not just wrong, but wicked.

Well, up to a point - but not every liberal (or conservative, for that matter) who thinks that Bush has been vastly worse than Clinton belongs to the "Bushitler" ranks, and there's nothing inherently intolerant about registering intense dislike for a disastrous President. I imagine that I would have spun the dial pretty close to zero for James Buchanan circa 1860, Woodrow Wilson circa 1917, or Lyndon Johnson circa '67 (among others), and I don't think in any of these cases I would have been guilty of "dehumanizing" them.

That said, though, I do think that for smart liberals, the depth of conservative-hatred on the left ought to be at least the cause of some concern, even if they think it's possibly justified in the case of George W. Bush. As I suggested when Jon Chait's big netroots essay came out, there's a risk that the new "movement liberalism," having been forged in the crucible of Bush-hatred, will end up imitating contemporary conservatism's worst habits - which include, among others things, a difficulty engaging with the opposition save through vitriol and stereotype. To see this tendency in action, consider Matt Stoller's response to Barack Obama's expression of (mild, mild) sympathy for Ronald Reagan's 1970s critique of big government.

It is extremely disturbing to hear, not that Obama admires Reagan, but why he does so. Reagan was not a sunny optimist pushing dynamic entrepreneurship, but a savvy politician using a civil rights backlash to catapult conservatives to power. Lots of people don't agree with this, of course, since it doesn't fit a coherent narrative of GOP ascendancy. Masking Reagan's true political underpinning principles is a central goal of the conservative movement ...

if you think, as Obama does, that Reagan's rise to power was premised on a sunny optimism in contrast to an out of control government and a society rife with liberal excess, then you don't understand the conservative movement. Reagan tapped into greed and fear and tribalism, and those are powerful forces. Ignoring that isn't going to make them go away.

I'm on the record expecting an era of liberal dominance in American politics. But there's no surer way to ensure that it's as brief as possible than for liberals to persuade themselves, with Stoller, that Ronald Reagan succeeded because he was e-e-e-vil, and that the entire conservative ascendancy boils down to nothing more that "greed and fear and tribalism" run amok.

Comments (62)

Another problem with liberals emulating the conservative movement is that it destroys the internal balance of the left, because there's a lot of group polarization and loyalty-signaling going on. So for instance, Paul Krugman recently wrote a column looking at the Democrats' stimulus plans and (surprise, surprise) bashing Obama's while praising the other two. His grounds were that Obama's plan is "less progressive" ("Less progressive? Say no more!"). As liberal intellectuals turn from the "intellectually honest" model to the "team-player/orthodoxy enforcer" model, a lot is lost. To put it another way, liberals saw the insanity of the Bush administration, called themselves the reality-based community, and then decided reality wasn't working out too well for them. It's too bad, because the conservative movement seems to be imploding and liberals could take power without going down that road.

I do think that for smart liberals, the depth of conservative-hatred on the left ought to be at least the cause of some concern

No. For smart liberals, the greater cause of concern is that conservative-hatred hasn't caught on to the extent it really should have by now. Bush hasn't even been impeached.

You're damn right I hate Dumbya with a passion. 'd hate any president who lied my country into a war of aggression and then proceeded to make torture an official instrument of US policy while wiretapping lawlessly and abandoning habeas corpus. The fact that he's also presiding over a party which uses gaybashing as an electoral tool and that he's on the side of creationist stupidity are just icing on the cake.

And the fact that I've left out as much as I've included tells you all you need to know about Dumbya's disastrous time in office.

I'd include the DeLay/Coulter/Limbaugh/Savage/Hannity Repiglicans in that web of despise, too, with no apologies.

And your little dog Goldberg, too.

Doesn't one have to control for the President's overall approval rating during this time? I mean, if Bush's job approval was 45% in 2004, and Clinton's was 55%, among partisans that alone is going to account for a 20% gap. On top of that it seems pretty clear that Bush has done more to intentionally polarize the electorate than Clinton did.

You also need the secret DC decoder ring to understand anything Matt Stoller says.

I agree with most of Ross's post, and with what Nicholas Beaudrot said. Bush is viewed "strongly negatively" by about half of the electorate. They're not all people rabbiting on about Bushitler.

Plus, Bill Clinton was a centrist. Alan Greenspan quasi-jokingly called him a "Republican president." Conservative hatred of Clinton has little to do with what Clinton actually did as president, and very much to do with the psychosis of conservatives. Whereas liberals have policy views-- ie, don't start pointless catastrophic wars on false pretenses, don't torture people, don't bankrupt the treasury, don't politicize the bureaucracy-- with which the Bush administration strongly disagrees.

I don't recall any feeling among liberals about, say, Bush Sr. or Dole that's comparable to how conservatives felt about Clinton.

will end up imitating contemporary conservatism's worst habits - which include, among others things, a difficulty engaging with the opposition save through vitriol and stereotype.

...and winning. Bush was/is a genuinely terrible President without the set of ready-made excuses that most other terrible Presidents have had. Many, many liberals and even centrist Dems made this and similar points over and over again. Yet Bush won in 2004, and I think the high-profile defections in the pundit class and elsewhere were (a) defections by people whose disenchantment could have been predicted, and (b) few. What reason is there to believe that "engaging with the opposition" accomplishes anything?

Comparing hatred of Bush to hatred of Clinton suggests either that the author is still in denial about exactly how bad Bush has been or has some pretty serious misconceptions about Clinton's presidency.

Adding some more ... since liberal has become a dirty word, and almost twice as many people call themselves conservative than liberal, it's natural to assume that conservatives would be closer to median public opinion than liberals.

My guess is that the haters are the most entrenched members of the bases of both parties, and that those who "hate the most" will alienate moderates and independents and people with open-minds, open-hearts.
Which is why I think Talk Radio and FOX do more to help liberals than hurt them: They solidify the base, but they drive reasonable people away. Franken's show on AirAmerica was a disaster,just non-stop Bush bashing, every bit as arrogant as Hannity, Limbaugh, Ailes, etc..
Talk Radio and FOX's support of Establishment candidate Mitt Romney will likely push independents and moderates toward the Democrats.

The commenters so far possess a hilarious lack of self-awareness.

We see all the worst things about liberals on display already.

The difference, they say, between hating Clinton and hating Bush is that the latter is required by reason; and that anybody who disagrees is a psychopath, just as Bush himself is. Ahh...to be enlightened as a liberal! It must be a thrilling experience.

History, not lefty wingnuts, will be the (pen)ultimate judge of Bushitler. I suspect that verdict will be very kind.

This is a bit off-topic, but worth mentioning since Ross so frequently cites Larison as a reliable source of commentary. Am I the last one to know that Larison is proudly Neo-Confederate?

I don't deny that there are good reasons to hate Clinton. He's been pissing me off plenty, and I'm finally coming around to the idea that he really is a fundamentally dishonest person.

All the same, his presidency was not the unmitigated and premeditated disaster that Bush's has been.

(shorter version of my post, because I ramble a bit: what profiteth the liberal movement if it wins all the world...)


"will end up imitating contemporary conservatism's worst habits - which include, among others things, a difficulty engaging with the opposition save through vitriol and stereotype.

...and winning."

This strikes me as exactly the problem with the people who think liberals need to emulate the conservative movement - they look at recent history and see nothing but victories for conservatism (until 2006). But GOP victories are not victories for conservatism. The "conservative movement" perverted and cheapened conservatism. Liberals are very good at pointing out the pathologies that result from the conservative movement's dogmatism and lack of self-criticism - incompetence, incoherence, disregard for the truth, inflexibility in response to large changes in the world - but don't seem to be able to connect the dots. If you build a movement that refuses to tolerate heresies, that rewards extremism and antagonism over pragmatism and self-criticism, you will end up poisoning whatever institutions you "win."

It's as though liberals look at someone like Ann Coulter and decide that the only problem with her work is that it's conservative instead of liberal. Nothing the matter with her tone or intellectual depth. After all, she's part of the phenomenally successful conservative movement, right? All the while, the Ann Coulters of the world basically constitute the humiliation of conservatism. Likewise with the Bush administration.

If you want to accomplish the liberal agenda in a way that isn't self-defeating, you need old-style Paul Krugmans who won't elide the difficuly policy choices out of deference to fellow coalition-members, not new-style Paul Krugmans who won't tolerate even mild criticism of, say, trial lawyers.

All of this ignores the fact that liberals are likely to win whether or not they abandon their intellectual honesty and pragmatism. It's frustrating to watch liberals abandon these things for nothing.

It's frustrating the readiness with which people assert that liberals have abandoned their intellectual honesty and pragmatism just because they really, really dislike George W. Bush.

This is just an attack on the straw man version of Daily Kos.

OK, if you think that we are so off base, defend the following proposition:

Bush was a better President than Clinton.

Clinton has a variety of personal failings and was, perhaps, not especially effective in some ways, but his administration didn't do anything like invade a country without planning for the aftermath or undermine American credibility by going to war against the counsel of most of our major allies on what turned out to be demonstrably false pretences. Then there is the responce to Katrina (compare to the Clinton administrations responce to flooding in the midwest when an actual expert instead of well-connected but clueless hack was running the relevant agency). This isn't really a matter of ideology.

Then there is the more ideologically controvertial stuff like budget deficits, torture, the politicization of the Justice Department, shameless political exploitation of 9/11, Pat Tillman, etc., shameless gay-baiting, the list goes on, but you get my point.

On the plus side, Bush hit the Taliban in Afghanistan and didn't make any major mistakes for the first six months of so (but then took his eye off the ball to go fight in Iraq and failed to eradicate AQ or the Taliban in the south-east). He also cut taxs, mostly for wealthy folks, which I guess is a plus if you are a certain sort of conservative. Then there was his Medicare expansion / give away to pharma, which counts as an accomplishment though I'm not sure how popular it is with people who are paying attention on either the left of the right. Am I missing anything here?

This looks pretty thin as far as pluses go even giving Bush credit for things that I think are a mistake.

So let's hear the defense of all this.

One need only look at MLJ's comments above (as well as all the other vitriol he spews on all of Ross' comments sections), the DailyKos, the number of trolls on Amazon trashing LF having never read it to realize that the left wrote the book on hate and bank their entire "movement" on it. Hate has been what's fueled them for the past generation.

While there were a handful of "Vince Foster/Mena/Clinton Death List" types on the right, by in large, we pegged Clinton pretty much right from the start : a lying, narcissistic womanizer who
uses people then throws them away. Those "Vince Foster" types are the base of the democratic party!! Over 1/3 Democrats still think that Bush knocked down the towers, and most of those that don't think that he lied us into war in order to make Haliburton more money!

Hate is an emotion and the left is all about emotion.

By the way, there is a difference between having strongly negative feelings about Bush and hating all conservatives. The former seems entirely warranted given the last 7 years, the latter is rather juvenile. Please don't conflate the two.

Good Lord, the guy who was president during an era of peace and prosperity is more popular than one that started a disastrous war? Liberals are teh hate!

Re: Larison: Hmmm, I thought he was just an anti-Federalist.

What we have here is a rather obvious blurring of negative opinions expressions (in a poll) to being in a state of "intolerance" and/or "hatred".

That's not just any slippery slope, but a uniquely steep one.

I've seen this argument take place in other contexts. Many is the time when I've read Internet screeds from a conservative which amount to "The left think's its so tolerant; yet these so-called "tolerant" lefties fail to embrace my dislike of immigrants."

Kinda makes your head explode.

As for me, I'll fess up to being intolerant. I'm intolerant of -- among other things -- unjustified wars, government being in my bedroom, and, oh yeah, intolerance itself.

I don't think that makes me a "hater", or suffering from "______ Derangement Syndrome". It just makes me impassioned about my beliefs. Deal with it.

That said, I agree with the notion that the rhetoric of political discourse (e.g., the allusions to Hitler, "Liberal Fascism", etc.) have gotten out of hand from *certain elements* on both sides.

... Hate is an emotion and the left is all about emotion.

Liberals base their intense dislike of Bush (and Republicans in general) on *policy* and *outcomes*.

Clinton was impeached because Republicans just plain didn't like him as a person.

Your statement that Clinton ... a lying, narcissistic womanizer who uses people then throws them away proves the point. None of these attributes actually have anything at all to do with governance. Sure, I might not like to be best buddies with the guy, or god forbid married to him, but none of those qualities say anything at all about policy or one's ability to govern. They're all personal.

we pegged Clinton pretty much right from the start : a lying, narcissistic womanizer who
uses people then throws them away.

So did we. We just didn't care. We haven't confused the Presidency with the Office of Best Friend for Life.

beyond the probably unanswerable question of who hates who most, I don't think hating the other side has worked out so well in US politics. liberal attacks on Reagan in the 80s, right wing fulminating re Clinton in the 90s, angry Bush bashing today - none of it yielded the presumably intended results.

most Americans don't really care for or about politics, but have an instinctively negative reaction to screamers and haters. Obama seems to get this, to his credit. you can think the other guy is 100% wrong without insisting he's evil, and you usually will persuade more of the majority in the middle if you approach things that way.

Hate has been what's fueled them for the past generation.

Yeah, and the folks who bought Coulter's books by the truckload, they were motivated by... something besides "hate," I'm sure. Insinuating that liberals are guilty of "Treason" - or these days, fascism - no, that's got nothing to do with hate. Right-o.

Nice points, minderbender. I agree that many liberals, maybe at time myself among them, have thought that the path to success required emulating the conservative movement, specifically because it was successful. Right cross, left cross, and now after 8 years of Clinton and nearly 8 years of Bush we've all got bloody noses.

So can we call it even, maybe? Or is this destined to go on? One reason I like Obama over Hillary is specifically because he ISN'T so divisive; but are we to say that the Limbaughs and the Hannitys, and the Coulters, are going to temper their criticisms of him should he win the nomination and/or the presidency?

Would liberals dislike or hate a President McCain or President Romney less than they do President Bush?

Obama, I think, has the ability to get people to cross over - maybe on something resembling a permanent basis. Because I think a lot of those who did, let's say, intensely dislike Clinton during the '90s have been chastened by being on the receiving end of it since 2000, and think the country needs to move away from the polarization that they themselves might have helped jump-start. But others have too big a stake - financial and otherwise - in ensuring that it continues.

Many Republicans, though loathing Clinton's personal habits, respected his balancing the budget and reforming welfare, along with defending Bosnia and Kosovo against the Serbs.

Brooks is quite right that the level of Bush hatred among strong Democrats far exceeds that of strong Republicans against Clinton. Even Henry Hyde, who led the impeachment of Clinton did so for principled reasons.

All of this fits with Jonah Goldberg's view that many Democrats are involved in some sort of Messianic political religion; hence, the vitriol against Republican heretics.

Even Henry Hyde, who led the impeachment of Clinton did so for principled reasons.

Like what? It was purely political.

Peter Leavitt-

Many republicans support Clinton's balancing of the budget, reform of welfare, and defending Bosnia and Kosovo. This make Clinton hatred all the more irrational. Bush did horrible things--objectively horrible things than can be debated on their merits. And for that, in addition to irrational impulses, Bush is hated.

One reason I like Obama over Hillary is specifically because he ISN'T so divisive

But there is this point of policy, rather than our feelings. Obama's actual policy preferences seem to be (on the domestic front) not that different than Clinton's. On the issues that make some of us see red, he offers only a slight adjustment of rhetoric (old school liberalism with friendlier ways of dismissing all conservative problems with that agenda), not anything of substance.

Politics isn't only about substance, of course, but there's going to be some rancor, surely, while there remain very serious substantive agreements. For example, I doubt I'll be utterly civil and fair-minded in my political rhetoric so long as Roe v. Wade stands.

justinb, Hyde made it clear that the case for Clinton's impeachment was based not on his affair but his manifest perjury. His basic view was that it defied the rule of law for a president to be excused for perjury, while many at the time were doing jail time for a similar offense. Anyone that knew Hyde as a congressman had great respect for his integrity. While he might have been impolitic on the issue, he can't be accused of lacking principle.

Rickm, one can reasonably debate Bush's policy decisions including the Iraq War, though regarding them as "objectively horrible" things is rather fevered and lacking any proportion. Your remark actually proves Brook's point.

Peter-

Really? So calling the Iraq War 'horrible' is off the table? How did you get inside my head and conclude that I merely reacted to the Iraq war rather than thought about it?

Mark B writes: "While there were a handful of "Vince Foster/Mena/Clinton Death List" types on the right, by in large, we pegged Clinton pretty much right from the start : a lying, narcissistic womanizer who
uses people then throws them away. Those "Vince Foster" types are the base of the democratic party!! Over 1/3 Democrats still think that Bush knocked down the towers, and most of those that don't think that he lied us into war in order to make Haliburton more money!"

Half of all Repiglicans believe Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11, and most of them are perfectly okay with torture. In fact, the National Review crew thinks acceptance of torture is at the very core of Repiglican values, and I believe them.

But, oh, man, a womanizer! That's just terrible!

But Bush isn't a narcissist - he just thinks JESUS supports his war crimes!

Brent writes: "History, not lefty wingnuts, will be the (pen)ultimate judge of Bushitler. I suspect that verdict will be very kind."

If the human race goes completely to shit, you may be right. At this point, though, history isn't particularly kind to torturers and incompetent scumbags.

Though you may be.

SomeCallMeTim quotes and writes: "we pegged Clinton pretty much right from the start : a lying, narcissistic womanizer who
uses people then throws them away.

So did we. We just didn't care. We haven't confused the Presidency with the Office of Best Friend for Life."

Isn't it odd to hear cons place so much stock on character issues considering what's going on these days, and the fact that most of them still harbor a soft spot for NIXON?

The real problem they had with Clinton is that they saw him derailing their Saint Reagan Revolution, and throwing off their timetable for dumping Roe v. Wade, among other things. That and the fact that he had 30 IQ points on any candidate they've come up with since the aforementioned Tricky Dick.

Am I the last one to know that Larison is proudly Neo-Confederate?

Nope.

Isn't it odd to hear cons place so much stock on character issues considering what's going on these days, and the fact that most of them still harbor a soft spot for NIXON?

Really? I am extremely skeptical that most serious conservatives (or man-on-the-street conservatives) have a soft spot for Nixon. Nixon is pretty much at the top of my pantheon of loathsome politicians. Admittedly, he was intellectually capable, and could have done great things -- but his paranoia, malice, and insecurities turned him into a dangerous monster, and made it certain that US withdrawal from Vietnam ended up being as disastrous and ugly as it could have been. You certainly don't see much love for Nixon in, say, National Review -- and reading Buckley's columns calling for his head at the time is quite enjoyable.

TMoC replies: "I am extremely skeptical that most serious conservatives (or man-on-the-street conservatives) have a soft spot for Nixon. Nixon is pretty much at the top of my pantheon of loathsome politicians. Admittedly, he was intellectually capable, and could have done great things -- but his paranoia, malice, and insecurities turned him into a dangerous monster, and made it certain that US withdrawal from Vietnam ended up being as disastrous and ugly as it could have been. You certainly don't see much love for Nixon in, say, National Review -- and reading Buckley's columns calling for his head at the time is quite enjoyable."

Ask 100 conservatives if Clinton's misdeeds were more serious than Nixon's and let me know the breakdown. I think any rational human being would look at the scope of criminality in Nixon's administration and admit he was in a class of his own, but it's a rare con who will admit that, in my experience.

Many cons also still defend Nixon's conduct of the Vietnam War, and regard Henry Kissinger highly. I'm not seeing it. And I'll excoriate LBJ and Robert McNamara all day long as well on that score.

Sure, lots of conservatives are fools. It goes around a lot.

I'll agree that anyone who thinks Clinton was worse than Nixon is out to lunch, and that a decent number of people are out to lunch. But don't pretend that covers all of us.

Admittedly, Larison would say that compared to Lincoln, Nixon and Clinton were both pikers.

Re: You certainly don't see much love for Nixon in, say, National Review -- and reading Buckley's columns calling for his head at the time is quite enjoyable.

Also, Nixon wandered pretty far off the conservative plantation (if he was ever there to start with). The opening to China, detente with the Soviets, withdrawl from Vietnam, affirmative action, the EPA, revenue sharing, a national health care plan, a plan for a guaranteed minimum income, wage-and-price controls-- even by 70s standards Nixon governed as a liberal.

TMoC writes: "Sure, lots of conservatives are fools. It goes around a lot.

I'll agree that anyone who thinks Clinton was worse than Nixon is out to lunch, and that a decent number of people are out to lunch. But don't pretend that covers all of us."

Since I used "most," not all, I have that covered already. I'll justify "most" simply by pointing out that most self-identified conservatives still say Dumbya is doing a good job, and this alone shows that most of them are therefore... what's the technical term... oh, yeah, "fucking idiots."

"Admittedly, Larison would say that compared to Lincoln, Nixon and Clinton were both pikers."

Of course Larison is a Neo-Confederate, and damn do I love that term. I would simply point out that there were elements in the South that wanted war badly, and they did shoot first, as it were. They also weren't going to stop insisting on the return of escaped slaves. No doubt the South would have ended slavery on their own by now, and sometime in the 24th century they would have outlawed lynching, but I'm sort of happy with how things turned out.

JonF writes: "even by 70s standards Nixon governed as a liberal."

No, by 70s standards Nixon was most certainly a conservative. It's a measure of how far things have moved to the right that he can be viewed as "liberal" now.

There's a quote from John Mitchell in Hunter Thompson's "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail": "This country is going to go so far to the right you won't recognize it," or something close to that. And it did.

I don't think banana repubic levels of inflation and the economic disaster cause by price controls should really be considered liberal.

Both parties engaged in those sorts of idiocies in the 70s, and while Republicans jettisoned them a little earlier, even Ted Kennedy has since come around.

So the country has learned a few lessons in economics, and our political lanscape has change because of it. That makes it different, not more conservative.

Re: heedless at 7:55

Yeah, but then some of the lessons learned are not true, such as the con truism that tax cuts are always good and will always build an economy. One of the problems of the late 60s/early 70s was that LBJ attempted to fight a war without raising taxes to pay for it. (This may sound familiar to observers of current events.) And as I recall it wage/price controls were instituted as a reaction to inflation, which was already seen as rampant.

Inflation is back in a significant way - one of the real swell achievements of the pack of shitstains in the White House. The current wacky idea is that holding down the prime indefinitely won't have negative consequences in this sort of economy. We'll see. The last big housing bubble burst in Bush I's term, and interest rates shot up about 3 points in a few months, as I recall. The difference then was there was no foreclosure tidal wave going on.

Hold on to your hats.

Ross correctly pointed out that Brooks is stretching the meaning of the thermometer ratings--they are evaluations of politicians and
not good indicators of political intolerance or ideological rigidity, etc. But beyond this measurement issue, we should also be skeptical of Brooks' cherry-picking of the survey data.

It turns out that if you look at 2000, when Clinton was president, extreme conservatives rated Clinton just as badly as extreme liberals rated Bush in 2004.

In 2000, the average rating extreme conservatives gave to Clinton was 14. The percent of extreme conservatives giving Clinton a rating of zero: 61.5%.

In 2004, the average rating extreme liberals gave to Bush was 15. The percent of extreme liberals giving Bush a rating of zero was 60 percent.

Anyone can replicate these analyses at this website, which contains ANEX data from 1948 to 2004:

http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin32/hsda?harcsda+nes2004c

I give more information on how to replicate Brooks' analyses in comments at this website:

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/48D1DA57-8369-49E3-A784-FEBCD9F748CF/

Moe, please talk more about the economy. I think there might be some who take your postings on other topics seriously, and the more you talk about the economy, the more that will correct itself.

Yeah, Tommy, you're right. We don't have an emerging inflation problem, the housing market is healthy, and the prime should be lowered to 0.125%. Everything is doubleplusgood.

Seems like nobody here seems much interested in actually defending Bush (as opposed to insulting liberals who really don't like him).

ikl writes: "Seems like nobody here seems much interested in actually defending Bush (as opposed to insulting liberals who really don't like him)."

Defending Bush at this point would be like defending the Ebola virus, so cons now prefer to avoid doing so. I think most of them would like to pretend he doesn't exist until after the election.

Imagine the pathetic sight of the massed sheeple at the 2008 GOP Convention if Dumbya gives a speech there - the sad attempt at giving the creep an ovation of some sort. If the nominee is smart he'd rather have an outbreak of Ebola there than have Dumbya anywhere near the place.

Re: No, by 70s standards Nixon was most certainly a conservative.

Things have shifted rightwards, yes, but even in the 70s conservatves were not about national health care, wage and price controls or buddying up to Communist countries. Nixon governed as a liberal (if not in all ways) and much of the liberal hate toward him was based on that: he was co-opting their issues for the GOP. Something smillar occured with Clinton with his tough-on-crime, end welfare as we know it and use US military force abroad policies: he stole some of the GOP's thunder and the GOP hated him for it.

JonF again: "Nixon governed as a liberal (if not in all ways) and much of the liberal hate toward him was based on that: he was co-opting their issues for the GOP."

That's simply not true - not even a little bit. Most of what you call his "liberal" moves happened late in his presidency, and he was hated by "liberals" long before then. Then again, LBJ was hated by "liberals" in 1968, too.

Nixon's "law'n'order" crap and his association with McCarthyism alone were reason enough to despise him. You're drawing a way-post-facto comparison to Clinton that no one was making at the time.

BTW, the EPA wasn't seen as a big "liberal" move at the time. Perhaps people don't recall what a horrible daily problem smog was back then. Even conservatives occasionally are moved to do things about real problems. And Nixon, unlike Dumbya, wasn't a science-denying wholly-owned whore for Big Oil.

My two cents, generally repeating a pretty common theme above. I think any comparison between Clinton and Bush hatred is comparing apples and oranges. The first was based on a vast mythology about misdeeds that were, in most cases, factually false if not made up entirely out of whole cloth. The latter is based on a vast factual record of public malfeasance that has even very conservative people like Bruce Fein calling for his impeachment.

This kind of false equivalence, false "balance", is what makes so many "conservative" arguments deeply frustrating.

Excellent post, Ross. I would amend Stoller and your take on him slightly — I don’t think recognizing the reasonableness of some of Reagan’s concerns about government spending patterns in the 60s and 70s and his optimism ought to preclude recognizing his tapping into a politics of resentment. Both seem to me to have been true.

The first was based on a vast mythology about misdeeds that were, in most cases, factually false if not made up entirely out of whole cloth.

We might remember that Kenneth Starr won a string of convictions of Arkansas political figures associated with the Clintons, among them Mrs. Clinton's law partner, Webster Hubbell and Mr. Clinton's successor as Governor of Arkansas, Jim Guy Tucker; that over $800,000 in 'consulting fees' stuck to Web Hubbell in the eight months immediately succeding his disbarment; that missing billing records from the Rose Law Firm were found in the East Wing of the White House with Mrs. Clinton's (and only Mrs. Clinton's) fingerprints on them; that a witness in the Whitewater investigation (Susan McDougal) cooled her heels in jail for eighteen months rather than testify in front of a grand jury about the Clinton's business deals; that that same witness received a Presidential pardon on or about 19 January 2001; that a mass of others received pardons at that same time in disregard of the standard procedures for vetting presidential pardons; that among that mass of others were associates of the President's brother and folks who had paid six figure finder's fees to the President's brother-in-law; and that the President's subornation of perjury would (per Richard Posner) would have (had he been a private citizen) likely been prosecuted had it come to the attention of law enforcement and netted him 30 to 37 months in the pen according to federal sentancing guidelines; and that a credible charge of rape leveled against the President by an Arkansas business-woman has never been subject to a rigorous investigation.


The latter is based on a vast factual record of public malfeasance that has even very conservative people like Bruce Fein calling for his impeachment.

Policy disagreements and policy errors are not crimes. Mr. Fein is a rather lonely figure, and has yet to persuade the Democratic majority in Congress.

Many people have noted that the Bush hatred/Clinton hatred comparison is inapt, because Bush is a catastrophic failure and Clinton was pretty good in office.

But, the key point comparing liberals and conservatives is the actions they take. By and large liberals vote for people they like better. A significant minority of conservatives (including the top members of the Bush administration) go much farther - into smears and character assassination (e.g. swiftboating), into attempts to disenfranchise the opposition (e.g. the Indiana ID law, the 2004 Florida felons list), into using the constitution for toilet paper (e.g. the Clinton impeachment), and all the way to clearly criminal behavior (e.g. various Gonzalez justice department activities).

On the state level there are many reasonable Republicans - such as my governator, Schwarzenegger - but on the national level they have worked hard to earn the contempt in which many hold them. Despite what the crackpots will say, there's no comparable record of anything close to this amount of thuggish and criminal behavior on the left.

Artie Deco's pious listing of Clinton-administration "crimes" is pretty funny, since the question is whether they compare to those of the Nixon administration. Of course they don't. Here's a synopsis on the Nixon-sucking crooks:

"On January 28, 1974, Nixon campaign aide Herbert Porter pleaded guilty to the charge of lying to the FBI during the early stages of the Watergate investigation. On February 25, 1974, Nixon's personal lawyer Herbert Kalmbach pleaded guilty to two charges of illegal election-campaign activities. Other charges were dropped in return for Kalmbach's cooperation in the forthcoming Watergate trials.

On March 1, 1974, former aides of the President, known as the Watergate Seven — Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell, Charles Colson, Gordon C. Strachan, Robert Mardian and Kenneth Parkinson — were indicted for conspiring to hinder the Watergate investigation. The grand jury also secretly named Nixon as an unindicted co-conspirator. Dean, Magruder and other figures in the scandal had already pleaded guilty. Charles Colson stated in his book Born Again that he was given a report by a White House aide that clearly implicated the CIA in the whole Watergate scandal and showed an attempt to implicate him as the one responsible.[citation needed]

On April 7, 1974, the Watergate grand jury indicted Ed Reinecke, Republican lieutenant governor of California, on three charges of perjury before the Senate committee. On April 5, 1974, former Nixon appointments secretary Dwight Chapin was convicted of lying to the grand jury.

Nixon's position was becoming increasingly precarious, and the House of Representatives began formal investigations into the possible impeachment of the President. The committee's opening speeches included one by Texas Representative Barbara Jordan that catapulted her to instant nationwide fame. The House Judiciary Committee voted 27 to 11 on July 27, 1974 to recommend the first article of impeachment against the President: obstruction of justice. The second (abuse of power) and third (contempt of Congress) articles were passed on July 29, 1974 and July 30, 1974, respectively.
Nixon leaving the White House shortly before his resignation became effective, August 9, 1974. The helicopter took him from the White House to Andrews Air Force base in Maryland. Nixon later wrote that he remembered thinking "As the helicopter moved on to Andrews, I found myself thinking not of the past, but of the future. What could I do now?...". At Andrews base, he boarded Air Force One to El Toro Marine Corps Air Station in California and then to his new home in San Clemente.
Nixon leaving the White House shortly before his resignation became effective, August 9, 1974. The helicopter took him from the White House to Andrews Air Force base in Maryland. Nixon later wrote that he remembered thinking "As the helicopter moved on to Andrews, I found myself thinking not of the past, but of the future. What could I do now?...". At Andrews base, he boarded Air Force One to El Toro Marine Corps Air Station in California and then to his new home in San Clemente.[16]

In August, the previously unknown tape from June 23, 1972, was released. Recorded only a few days after the break-in, it documented Nixon and Haldeman formulating a plan to block investigations by having the CIA falsely claim to the FBI that national security was involved. The tape was referred to as a "smoking gun." With few exceptions, Nixon's remaining supporters deserted him. The ten congressmen who had voted against all three articles of impeachment in the committee announced that they would all support impeachment when the vote was taken in the full House. It was almost certain that Nixon would be impeached by the House and removed from office by the Senate.

Throughout this time, Nixon still denied any involvement in the ordeal. After being told by key Republican Senators that enough votes existed to convict and remove him, Nixon decided to resign. In a nationally televised address on the evening of August 8, 1974, he announced he would resign, effective at noon Eastern Time on Friday, August 9, 1974. Though Nixon's resignation obviated the pending impeachment, criminal prosecution was still a possibility. He was immediately succeeded by Gerald Ford, who on September 8, 1974, issued a pardon for Nixon, immunizing him from prosecution for any crimes he may have committed as President. Nixon proclaimed his innocence until his death, although his acceptance of the pardon was construed by many as an admission of guilt. He did state in his official response to the pardon that he "was wrong in not acting more decisively and more forthrightly in dealing with Watergate, particularly when it reached the stage of judicial proceedings and grew from a political scandal into a national tragedy."

Charles Colson pleaded guilty to charges concerning the Ellsberg case; in exchange, the indictment against him for covering up the activities of CRP was dropped, as it was against Strachan. The remaining five members of the Watergate Seven indicted in March went on trial in October 1974, and on January 1, 1975, all but Parkinson were found guilty. In 1976, the U.S. Court of Appeals ordered a new trial for Mardian; subsequently, all charges against him were dropped. Haldeman, Ehrlichman, and Mitchell exhausted their appeals in 1977. Ehrlichman entered prison in 1976, followed by the other two in 1977."

In the annals of crooked American presidential administrations, the Nixon gang stands alone as the most fecal. And the list doesn't even include convicted felon Spiro "The Retard" Agnew!

Of course Art Deco has a Nixon tattoo over his heart, so let's not judge him too harshly. The poor GOP foot soldier just can't help himself.

Re: Even conservatives occasionally are moved to do things about real problems.

Yes, yes. But can you really deny that Nixon was significantly to the Left of his own party in his governing actions (not his rhetoric, but his actual deeds)? He had a Republican challenger from the Right in the coronation year of 1972! And Ronald Reagan after all was Nixon's contemporary, not some Young Turk that came along later. Ditto for pundits like Kilpatrick and Buckley. Were they crusading for price controls? For national health care? For detente? Hardly! Reagan's insurgent candidacy in 1976 was aimed straight at undoing Nixon's legacy in the GOP, something which actually happened in 1980 and after: The Eisenhower and Rockefeller Republicans were made increasingly unwelcome in the GOP and outside New England and, maybe, the west coast such people are now very rare in Republican-land. Once upon a time both major parties had liberal and conservative wings, albeit the GOP was slightly less liberal than the Democrats. Nixon destroyed the liberal wing of the GOP since the debacle of Watergate handed the GOP to the conservatives.

JonF replies: "But can you really deny that Nixon was significantly to the Left of his own party in his governing actions (not his rhetoric, but his actual deeds)? He had a Republican challenger from the Right in the coronation year of 1972! And Ronald Reagan after all was Nixon's contemporary, not some Young Turk that came along later."

Actually I can deny it quite easily, since there was a significant block of the Republican Party which was to Nixon's left at that time. Not just Nelson Rockefeller, but also people like Ed Brooke, Percy of Illinois, Mark Hatfield, and more. I would agree that Nixon's disaster helped wipe out that wing, but it was still strong enough to get Rockefeller the VP slot under Ford.

Even Saint Reagan was more liberal back then, of course.

How about this, is it possible that the hatred for the Clintons was mostly from the politicos and pundits--as reflected by their approval ratings? While the hatred for the Bushes is a reflection of his approval ratings? There are clearly many more possible conclusions that you provided.

Re: Even conservatives occasionally are moved to do things about real problems.

Yes, yes. But can you really deny that Nixon was significantly to the Left of his own party in his governing actions (not his rhetoric, but his actual deeds)? He had a Republican challenger from the Right in the coronation year of 1972! And Ronald Reagan after all was Nixon's contemporary, not some Young Turk that came along later. Ditto for pundits like Kilpatrick and Buckley. Were they crusading for price controls? For national health care? For detente? Hardly! Reagan's insurgent candidacy in 1976 was aimed straight at undoing Nixon's legacy in the GOP, something which actually happened in 1980 and after: The Eisenhower and Rockefeller Republicans were made increasingly unwelcome in the GOP and outside New England and, maybe, the west coast such people are now very rare in Republican-land. Once upon a time both major parties had liberal and conservative wings, albeit the GOP was slightly less liberal than the Democrats. Nixon destroyed the liberal wing of the GOP since the debacle of Watergate handed the GOP to the conservatives.

Uh, Jon? Are you on some sort of narcotics or did you just fall into a timewarp? What's the point of the rewrite of your 5:45 post. which I answered at 5:57?

Re: I would agree that Nixon's disaster helped wipe out that wing, but it was still strong enough to get Rockefeller the VP slot under Ford.
Even Saint Reagan was more liberal back then, of course.

Iam not denying that the GOP hgas shifted rightward, and I garee that Reagan was less conservative than modern day "conservatives" (who really don't deserve that name, but that's another discussion). Nevertheless Nixon was not any kind of rightwinger, except perhaps rhetorically. He extended the legacy of the Great Society, he did not seek to undo it.

Uh, Jon? Are you on some sort of narcotics or did you just fall into a timewarp? What's the point of the rewrite of your 5:45 post. which I answered at 5:57?

It posted twice (browser woes). Surely you've seen that happen on this and other sites before? The first time I hit post it hung for a very long time and showed no sign of completing, so I hit the button a second time.

Jonf replies: "Nevertheless Nixon was not any kind of rightwinger, except perhaps rhetorically. He extended the legacy of the Great Society, he did not seek to undo it."

He didn't have the popular support to undo it, or even to attempt much of it, Jon. He barely won in 1968, and after '72 he was busy staving off the Watergate fallout. But he did make appoint Rehnquist and he did keep an unpopular war going for all of his time in office, while pushing his law'n'order Southern strategy. For his time, he was a conservative. By the way, somewhere up above you said he was challenged from the right wing of his party in 1972. I remember him being challenged by Pete McCloskey, a Californian who was anti-war and a liberal Repub who later switched over to the Dems. Who are you referring to?

"It posted twice (browser woes). Surely you've seen that happen on this and other sites before? The first time I hit post it hung for a very long time and showed no sign of completing, so I hit the button a second time."

Maybe, but it was a half hour later and the second posting was different. Check the end of the post. Go with the timewarp.