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Imagining A Pro-Life America

29 Jan 2008 11:39 am

During the long, long arguments about the implicit pro-life messages, or lack thereof, in films like Knocked Up and Juno, my interlocutors frequently made the point that even if the movies were mildly pro-life, they weren't effective arguments for an anti-abortion position, because neither film’s storyline actually reflected the experience of most American women who consider terminating their pregnancy. Which is fair enough so far as it goes - but if that’s the case do I really have to endure the suggestion, from J. Hoberman among others, that a film set in Ceauşescu's Romania has more relevance than any of them to the American abortion debate?

Hoberman's piece seems as good a peg as any to hang an argument that I don’t think either side in the abortion debate has contemplated seriously enough – namely, that any successful attempt, in a post-Roe world, to ban or strictly regulate abortion in the United States would amount to an epic social experiment, with no obvious antecedents in our own history or any other country’s. The U.S. isn’t a Communist hellhole or a patriarchal Third World society, and it isn’t at all the same country that it was the last time abortion was widely illegal. It’s a post-feminist, post-sexual revolution society, and any attempt at restricting abortion that hopes to succeed – whether legally, politically or morally – would have to take these realities into account to a far greater degree than, say, the hapless attempt at a blanket ban that South Dakota passed two years ago. Designing abortion restrictions for contemporary America would require compromises on the part of pro-lifers, obviously – not only on rape and incest but also probably on the availability and distribution of the morning-after pill. But more than that, it would almost certainly require large-scale (and expensive) experimentation with the American welfare state, to address the needs of the hundreds of thousands of pregnant women each year who would suddenly no longer have the option of aborting their unborn - and the hundreds of thousands of children who would come into the world as a result.

What exact form this sort of experimentation would take I'm not sure; it's a thorny enough subject to make a topic for a long essay or even a book. But over the short term, there's no question that it would require conservatives to temporarily table many of their longstanding policy goals - from cutting illegitimacy rates to reducing welfare dependency to limiting the size of government – in the name of the pro-life cause. (This goes for me as much as for anyone else: While Grand New Party assumes that the GOP will remain a staunchly pro-life party, the agenda it proposes also assumes that the landscape of abortion politics will remain roughly as it is today for the foreseeable future.) Over the long run, my assumption is that a ban on abortion, by changing the incentives of sexual behavior and family formation, would actually end up reducing out-of-wedlock births, welfare spending, and all the rest of it, and that a short-term investment in a pro-life welfare state (and an acceptance of the short term spike in illegitimacy, dependency and government spending that would presumably accompany it) would prove a boon to conservatism in the end. But that's a long-term hope, not a short-term plan - and even if that assumption weren’t borne out, I still think that a higher illegitimacy rate and a more expensive and intrusive welfare state would be a small price to pay for a country where every human being enjoyed the protection of the laws.

Obviously, not everyone on the Right would agree, which is one reason why the abortion debate ultimately cuts across party lines, if not across party platforms. (As Reihan notes, Will Saletan’s Bearing Right is the book to read on the subject.) And just as obviously, the scenario I just sketched out probably never come to pass; even if Roe disappears, I suspect that the country will settle into an equilibrium more pro-choice than pro-life, with more chances for experimentation with abortion policy but not all that many more. But if real opportunities do arise and the pro-life movement seizes them, I think it's safe to say that the results will look, in policy and practice alike, unlike any abortion regime that now exists, or has ever existed before.

Comments (130)

I didn't expect to post a criticism of your writing Ross, but as for your knock on Hoberman, I'm afraid he's quite right. "4 Months" *is* a more realistic film about abortion that "Juno" (I haven't seen "Knocked Up," but doubt it trucks in "realism"), and a better film all around.

And because "4 Months" is realistic, it's no doubt a much more unsettling film for pro-choicers to watch. The only fair conclusion one can draw from it about unborn life is that, yes, that fetus is pretty much undeniably a baby, and the only thing seperating we in America from the women in Romania is that we have facilities that dispose of the fetuses without us having to see that disposal and take responsibility for it.

The film is amazing on that level, a knockout that's stayed with me -- and grown stronger -- since I saw it several weeks ago.

Those critics and viewers who boil the movie's message down to "isn't it nice abortion in America is safe and legal" are missing what makes the film so powerful. The same thing is true about Mike Leigh's "Vera Drake" from a few years back, which shows an at times naive woman carrying out abortions for women in trouble, oblivious to the consequences of her actions. But that film ends with a feminist call to arms of sorts, whereas "4 Months" ends with a chilling discussion between two women that suggests abortion is but one aspect -- a microcosm, perhaps -- of Communist oppression.

Ross,

I disagree with you on most political issues, but that was a masterpiece of analysis. It's nice to see that you are willing to accept an expanded welfare state and to ackowledge that feminism and the sexual revolution is, at least in its essence, here to stay for the foreseeable future. I would be 100% behind a pro-life regime that banned abortion while expanding the welfare state and encouraging both natural family planning and contraception.

I should add that I think the welfare state and _to a certain extent_ the sexual revolution are good things and I don't hope that they go away, nor do I think they will. You're welcome to hope, of course, as I'm welcome to hope that the end of abortion leads to the replacement of late capitalism by a more just and humane economic system.

And just as obviously, the scenario I just sketched out probably never come to pass; even if Roe disappears, I suspect that the country will settle into an equilibrium more pro-choice than pro-life, with more chances for experimentation with abortion policy but not all that many more.

Nonsense. Organized anti-abortion groups will not spontaneously disappear should Roe be overturned. They will essentially aim to create a patchwork of abortion laws across the US, with total bans in places like Alabama. They will also, finally, be able to take aim what they're really after: Griswold. This crowd wants no legal precident that acknowledges a right to privacy, a concept which they loathe.

But, hey, remember, it's Ross:

ban on abortion + ban on gay marriage = higher middle class wages.

Savage View,

Even if Griswold was overturned, it wouldn't matter. Virtually _no one_ in America is pushing for a ban or even restrictions on contraception. The Catholic Church, its own views of contraception notwithstanding (which have signally failed to have much influence on lay Catholics) is not pushing for a ban on contraception _anywhere in the world_, not even in overwhelmingly Catholic countries in South America, let alone here. The other churches have by and large accepted contraception. So _where_ do you think is the threat?

They will also, finally, be able to take aim what they're really after: Griswold. This crowd wants no legal precident that acknowledges a right to privacy, a concept which they loathe.

SavageView: as Hector notes, this is pretty much crazy talk. Griswold is not going anywhere, even if it was bad Constitutional law -- the justices who might barely overturn Roe are fairly clearly for the most part uninterested in revisiting Griswold, and even if Griswold vanished, what state do you think a ban on contraception could even _begin_ to get sufficient support to be established in? Among other points, a good part of the pro-life movement these days is driven by Protestants who often don't have any objections to most contraception.

I strongly disagree with your assumptions about the long-term effects of an abortion ban, but I'll pause for a moment to thank you for your efforts to think through the much more obvious short-term implications. That's more than I can say for most partisans on either side of the issue.

Your first false assumption, as is usually the case in your writing, is that the conservative movement will cease being anti-tax, anti-welfare zealots and will gradually morph into German Christian Democrats. That is to say, they will not only pay politically advantageous lip service to the idea that the American welfare state must "address the needs of the hundreds of thousands of pregnant women each year," but they'll follow through, year after year, at budget time. We've seen this shell game before with the promises made about mitigating the harms caused by free trade, and we'll undoubtedly see it again.

While it's perhaps true that "a short-term investment in a pro-life welfare state (and an acceptance of the short term spike in illegitimacy, dependency and government spending that would presumably accompany it) would prove a boon to conservatism in the end," that boon to conservatism would almost certainly take the form of resurrecting the welfare queen mythos for the purpose of wedge politics.

But there's a more important blind spot in your argument. You note that this is not a patriarchal third world society, but you don't seem to grasp that banning abortion is inevitably going to drag this country back in that direction. To require women to be "sacred vessels" for the unborn, against their wishes, is inherently patriarchal. It is thoroughly incompatible with genuine freedom and political equality for women, which is why the right to an abortion became such a fiercely contested issue in the first place.

An abortion ban is not going to magically allow this country to settle into a new pro-life equilibrium. It will simply mobilize the country for another round of the never-ending culture war. This is a genie you can't put back into the bottle in a free, post-sexual revolution society.

Sorry for the typo. Precident -> precedent. I should use that preview button.

As for Juno... I don't want to flog a dead horse, but...

That movie shows a young woman making a brave and unconventional choice, but it also shows us a young woman with tremendous self-confidence and a supportive family who was about to give birth to a highly marketable white child. Most single mothers lack some, or all, of those advantages. Given the history and cultural character of this country, I'd say the actual political support for a sexually liberated, color-blind society with a robust welfare state and an abortion ban polls somewhere below Dennis Kucinich.

You've thought through most of the relevant issues, but at root you're clinging to a fantasy.

There are days on which I hope Roe does get overturned, if only to watch the true ugliness of the "pro-life" crowd get revealed. I foresee Jesoid-driven states allowing would-be "fathers" to get their "host mothers" locked up to prevent them from traveling to an "abortion state." Won't that be fun?

We already know that most Republicans have no problem with torture or the pointless murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, so why would a little thing like this scenario bother them? The answer is that it wouldn't, not even a little bit. "She should have thought of that before she opened her legs." I can just see Schlafly and Donohue saying just that with their pinched nasty-ass fanatic faces on every other broadcast on Fox.

Contraception is only part of Griswold. Your lot (whether left-wing Christianists like Hector or right-wing ones like TMC, both experts at "crazy talk") does not want any legal principle that recognizes a right to privacy. You simply don't have the balls to say it outright.

But remember:

ban on abortion + ban on gay marriage = higher middle class wages!

Or something like that.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

If you didn't exist, some satirst would have to invent you. You're such a cartoon. It always brightens my day imagining you so earnest and angry, stabbing your fingers on the keys begging for the world to notice you with each comment more outrageous and vile than the last.

I've long wondered whether Ireland might provide a model for pro-life laws in a modern Western country. Surely they've had to deal with a lot of the issues Ross raises. On the other hand, perhaps Irish culture has already accomodated the pro-life legal background, whereas in the US we would be layering a pro-life legal regime onto a culture that evolved in a pro-choice environment. Still...

Does this scenario include the Republican Party marginalizing itself amongst women voters, much the way it has amongst African-Americans, and becoming a permanent minority party?

I appreciate what Ross is trying to do here, but he ignores several salient issues:

1. Many people in the pro-life movement are not simply, or principally, motivated by a desire to save the lives of fetuses. They don't promote contraceptive use, they don't support efforts (other than abstinence education) to reduce the teenage pregnancy rate and make abortions less likely, and they certainly don't support the welfare state that Ross can accept. Rather, they may care about fetal life, but in the context of also believing that banning abortion WILL roll back the sexual revolution and feminism and push Americans back towards traditional, allegedly Biblically-mandated gender roles.

So what is going to happen with the ACTUAL American pro-life movement if Roe is overturned? I would suggest that it isn't going to be pretty. They are going to go for a national ban on abortion. And if the Republicans control Congress and the Presidency, I don't see how they are going to be able to say no to the movement. Short of that, they will go for federal laws that make it very hard to cross state lines to get an abortion, ban abortions in DC and in any situation where the federal government has sovereignty, pull RU486 off the market, etc.

Further, they will succeed in many states in banning abortions. And those same states (many of which are in the South) will not create welfare safety nets.

The result is going to be a situation where the pro-life movement likely gets a very black eye, as more and more stories are told of young women and girls in the most unfortunate of circumstances being forced to carry babies to term, committing suicide, getting abused by their husbands or boyfriends or parents, etc.

2. The safety net programs that Ross proposes actually carry huge costs of their own. The truth is, we had a similar regime in place in our inner cities before the Clinton welfare reform. The federal government paid unmarried women to have their babies, and many unmarried women got stuck on the dole.

I was never the biggest supporter of welfare reform. But this was a real problem, and blithely saying "we'll restore the safety net" misses that there were big adverse effects resulting from that safety net back when we had it.

3. There probably ARE compromises that might mitigate the effects that I set forth above and lead us to an equilibrium that reduced abortions. Not necessarily compromises I, as a pro-choicer, would love, but compromises that might work and might defuse the issue if most pro-lifers were really willing to live with the feminist, post-sexual revolution society that Ross accepts. For instance, a compromise that restricted abortions to the very early term, or kept RU486 on the market, or placed procedural obstacles in place that made it more difficult to get an abortion while still keeping it in place when a need was shown.

But the pro-life movement is, as far as I can tell, spectacularly uninterested in these sorts of compromises. Maybe they will become more interested in the future. But I get the feeling that for many pro-lifers, a lot of symbolism is invested in making abortion illegal. That is how you tell the world that "every life is precious". But it isn't necessarily how you reduce the abortion rate or move society towards a stable equilibrium with less abortion.

And what I suspect is that therefore the situation Ross posits, even if it came to pass, would be tremendously unstable, as pro-choicers mobilize to get abortion rights protected again, centrists gravitate to pro-choice candidates, Supreme Court appointments once again bring a pro-Roe majority to the Court, etc.

4. Ross doesn't seem to contemplate that there would be massive numbers of illegal abortions in the society he posits. He also doesn't contemplate the bad effects that having large numbers of illegal abortions would have.

Speaking as an Irish pro lifer, I must say I was little taken aback to read that we were either "Communist hell hole" or a "Third World patriarchy". I must have been out.

Anyway, there is all the difference in the world between being anti-abortion and "pro-life". Ireland has a legal regime which prohibits abortion (there are legal exceptions, but these have not been legislated for, and thus, abortion is de facto illegal in all circumstances)

However, thousands of Irish women go abroad every year to have abortions, illustrating that the battle here is not simply political or legal, but also social and cultural.

We do have skyrocketing levels of out of wedlock births, but we have far lower levels of this than other EU countries (not a high bar, it's true) We also have an increasing level of early sexual activity among teens, which long term will probably increase the social pressure to introduce abortion.

The bottom line is that we cope fairly well; there isn't mass pressure to legalise abortions. But women are not seen as "sacred vessels for the unborn, against their wishes"; they make up about 60 per cent of the legal profession, there are more women than men in 3rd level and they are more likely to have a job than other European countries such as Italy where abortion is legal.

To what extent does the UK act as a sort of "safety valve" for Irish abortion demand? Hard to say. UK figures about Irish abortions tell us that Ireland has the lowest abortion rates (expressed as percentage of live births) in Europe. (Dutch figures exclude first trimester abortions, and are therefore not reliable) So while the figure is unacceptably high from a pro life perspective, it is not such as to indicate a looming social crisis. Furthermore, the figures show that the number of Irish women having abortions in the UK is declining, and there is no hard evidence to show women are going elsewhere.

We have decent single mother payments, which are a source of little controversy; then again, so does the UK which has a far higher rate of abortion.

The practicalities can be handled if an incremental approach is followed. With a little bit of good judgment from US pro lifers, a post-Roe world would acknowledge that winning hearts and minds is at least as important as winning legislative and judicial battles.

Activists should seek, not to make abortion illegal at a stroke, but gradually persuaded pluralities in each state that their particular abortion laws were too permissive.

It would be a political impossibility to ban abortion in NY, for example. But would it really be impossible to impose some time limits? Or other limitations? Perhaps it would, but there are certainly other states where gradual restrictions could be introduced.

Meanwhile, there are other states where a ban with just rape and incest exceptions could be introduced almost on day one.

Such a scenario seems healthier to me from a political standpoint than endless arm wrestling over judicial appointments regarding who will or won't overturn Roe.

The bottom line is that we cope fairly well; there isn't mass pressure to legalise abortions. But women are not seen as "sacred vessels for the unborn, against their wishes"; they make up about 60 per cent of the legal profession, there are more women than men in 3rd level and they are more likely to have a job than other European countries such as Italy where abortion is legal.

This is, as you partially concede, because Ireland has outsourced abortion to the UK with a wink and a nudge. Going abroad is not really an option available to women in many parts of the US. Though I suppose it is always going to be an option for successful, professional women, which probably explains why so many moderate Republicans are willing to vote for pro-lifers.

Does this scenario include the Republican Party marginalizing itself amongst women voters, much the way it has amongst African-Americans, and becoming a permanent minority party?

Looking at polling, women are slightly more pro-life than men. I seem to recall that a few more men are abortion absolutists, but that women are more likely to be in the "nothing but incest, rape, and life of mother" camp. Again, there's a lot of varying data here, but I also recall that groups that Republicans do well with now (married women) are the least likely to shift party allegiance over this, and that those they do poorly with (single urban women) already vote the other way anyway. That particular bit of political fallout seems unlikely.

Your lot (whether left-wing Christianists like Hector or right-wing ones like TMC, both experts at "crazy talk") does not want any legal principle that recognizes a right to privacy. You simply don't have the balls to say it outright.

Sure I do. "I don't want a legal principle that recognizes the kind of right to privacy Roe or Griswold acknowledges." Well, more specifically, I don't think the US Constitution features, remotely, such a right, and thus think Griswold (and, of course, Roe) were badly reasoned. So? Griswold simply isn't going anywhere, and if it did the political will for a contraception ban is essentially non-existent in the US, anywhere. Heck, I'm a cranky right-wing Catholic reactionary and for complex reasons I don't know that _I_ would vote for such a ban (laws that are ludicrously removed from the morality of the populace, difficult to enforce, and not essential to the kinds of justice that the state is properly obliged to defend are a bad idea). But even if Hector and I wanted blah blah blah, what does it matter? (Hector doesn't even mind contraception at all, as far as I know). Do you have any reason to think that the Supreme Court would overturn Griswold? It would, for one thing, require such a string of conservative nominees (to the right of Alito and Roberts with respect to precedent, I suspect) that it would only result from a series of stunning presidential and congressional triumphs from the social right. Does that look like our political future?

I mean, come on. I guess it's more reasonable to speculate about Griswold going away than, say, the return of Dred Scott, but that's about it.

Dick Hunter writes: "If you didn't exist, some satirst would have to invent you. You're such a cartoon. It always brightens my day imagining you so earnest and angry, stabbing your fingers on the keys begging for the world to notice you with each comment more outrageous and vile than the last."

Thanks for keeping track, Dick. I'd say something about your own fascinating posts if I could remember ever reading one.

Nothing in my above post is particularly "outrageous and vile," but then you're probably just very sensitive.

Looking at polling, women are slightly more pro-life than men. I seem to recall that a few more men are abortion absolutists, but that women are more likely to be in the "nothing but incest, rape, and life of mother" camp. Again, there's a lot of varying data here, but I also recall that groups that Republicans do well with now (married women) are the least likely to shift party allegiance over this, and that those they do poorly with (single urban women) already vote the other way anyway. That particular bit of political fallout seems unlikely.

One thing to bear in mind is that when abortion is basically legal on demand (a point conservatives make about Roe that isn't entirely correct but is mostly correct), or is perceived to be, there's a lot of space carved out for people to be "pro-life" without having to make difficult distinctions.

My suspicion is that the number of women who are pro-life in the sense that they would support flat bans on abortion if Roe were overturned is probably a relatively small minority. There are, however, a lot of women, especially married religious lower and middle class mothers in the midwest, south, and mountain west, who believe that there are way too many abortions.

I think that pro-lifers count a little too much on this particular talking point (which is usually deployed against charges that the movement is anti-feminist). Move the laws in a more pro-life direction and I would suspect that female support for the pro-life cause would drop off a lot more than male support.

Dilan,

I think it will drop off a good bit for absolute bans, but I'm not so sure about intermediate points. I think pro-lifers may make too much of this polling -- different contexts, as you say -- but I think that it's silly to feel certain, or even "it's very very likely" that a polity with real state and local battles over abortion law would spell doom for the GOP with women. Or that it wouldn't discomfort the Democrats quite a bit, as Roe's demise makes the abortion policies of ambitious Democratic pols less irrelevant on the local front in places full of those midwestern, southern, and mountain west women voters. Navigating the national Democratic party's constraints on presidential-level abortion views and the fact that it might once again be an issue in state politics won't be fun for those folks.

Dilan Esper writes: "There are, however, a lot of women, especially married religious lower and middle class mothers in the midwest, south, and mountain west, who believe that there are way too many abortions.

I think that pro-lifers count a little too much on this particular talking point (which is usually deployed against charges that the movement is anti-feminist). Move the laws in a more pro-life direction and I would suspect that female support for the pro-life cause would drop off a lot more than male support."

Of course. When it's those hussies in the Big City having abortions so they don't have to interrupt their goldang jetsetting and nightclubbing, the chicks in the sticks can get all righteous and will say so to pollsters.

When it's Cindy Lou who just made a boo-boo with that no-good Hunter boy, you're dang right she should be able to "take care of it." Just this once, sugar. That girl has her head on straight and everyone's entitled to that one mistake.

I think it will drop off a good bit for absolute bans, but I'm not so sure about intermediate points. I think pro-lifers may make too much of this polling -- different contexts, as you say -- but I think that it's silly to feel certain, or even "it's very very likely" that a polity with real state and local battles over abortion law would spell doom for the GOP with women. Or that it wouldn't discomfort the Democrats quite a bit, as Roe's demise makes the abortion policies of ambitious Democratic pols less irrelevant on the local front in places full of those midwestern, southern, and mountain west women voters. Navigating the national Democratic party's constraints on presidential-level abortion views and the fact that it might once again be an issue in state politics won't be fun for those folks.

I understand what you are saying, and I will confess that I don't have data to back up my speculation, but I don't see how the demise of Roe is going to harm the Democrats, except perhaps in a few states where Democrats have little influence already.

The reason is the pro-life movement is already fully activated and has been for a long time. People who really care about overturning Roe vote for pro-life candidates, and often do so as the single issue.

Whereas, many committed pro-choicers, such as libertarians and "socially liberal fiscally conservative" voters, cross over.

My bet is that beyond the activists, a lot of the support for the pro-life position in the polls comes from people who are disgusted at the number of abortions, and a feeling that people are irresponsibly getting pregnant and getting abortions without taking minimal precautions or attempting to live a more moral (in this view) life. There is a lot about that worldview that I disagree with, of course, but it is different from the pro-life activist who thinks that every life is sacred and/or that society shouldn't have moved away from traditional gender roles or constraints on sexuality.

As a result, in my view, the political playing field, post-Roe, is going to be as follows:

1. Some very pro-life portions of the country (Utah, South Dakota) are going to remain very pro-life, with a slight benefit to already powerful Republican parties there.

2. The most pro-choice portions of the country (the coasts) will become even more pro-choice and solidly Democratic, as committed pro-choice voters believe they can't afford to cross over anymore.

3. Much of middle America will tilt more towards the Democrats, as pro-choicers get activated and many in the mushy middle or who identified themselves to pollsters as pro-life confront the reality of actual restrictions on the right to abortion. I expect this to go on even in the South to some extent; there are a lot of unplanned pregnancies down there and don't underestimate the number of people who may identify as pro-life but who have availed themselves or know someone who has availed herself of the right to have an abortion at some point.

Bottom line, I don't see how it would help Republicans politically. And I will assure you that the movement conservatives I know are quite aware of this issue and fearful about it; part of the attraction of the pro-life cause to the Republican Party has been that it has been something of a free vote (with the only restrictions of consequence being reasonably popular ones like parental notification).

First... MoeLarryAndJesus performs a valuable function on this blog, by (a) distilling the "my right to orgasms, uber alles" viewpoint into highly entertaining, uncomfortable barbs that give no quarter to any opposing view, and (b) therefore, preventing the Douthati supporters from becoming a mutual back-pat club, like Tim Blair's or FreeRepublic.

I do dispute his repeated characterisation of the deaths of Iraqis as "pointless". He seems to imagine that, if the Ba'athists and al-Qaeda-ists and Iranian stooges had done as the Eastern European Communists and South African white right did - ie, had recognised "Game's over, folks. We've lost our hegemony; constitutional democracy is here to stay. Let's lay down our weapons and stop killing our fellow countrypeople" - then Dubya and Cheney would have been disappointed, as this would deprive them of a rationale for killing Arabs. If the Abu Ghraib perps had not been prosecuted and convicted, but instead had an Insititute for Recreational Torture Rights named in their honour, then the parallel with abortion might make more sense.

That Moe considers the goal of bringing democracy to Middle Eastern dictatorships "pointless," in comparison to Amy Richards' goal of not buying ketchup at Costco, is one reason why I do not take his pro-abortion pacifism terribly seriously. Doubtless Moe's own plan for freeing Iraqis from Saddam would have found a way to persuade the insurgents not to assassinate UN envoys or disrupt multi-party elections. I look forward to hearing the details.

On the main point: I offer this quote from New Age guru M Scott Peck, a liberal Christian.

'My rule of thumb whenever I am faced with a proposed social solution is to bear in mind the question "What is missing?" And if you ask what is missing in a law that proclaims "Thou shalt not abort," the answer you get is responsibility… The law-makers take the responsibility away from the mother... by simply declaring "You must bear that child." But where do they place that responsibility? The answer is nowhere. They certainly do not want the responsibility themselves for the child once it is born. Therefore, a law that proclaims "Thou shalt not abort" is a law without compassion and integrity.

'I actually look forward to the day when we might be able to say "Thou shalt not abort" with compassion and integrity. But the only way we can do that is within community, where it becomes a community decision whether there should or shouldn’t be an abortion. If... the community decides that there shouldn't be an abortion, then the community assumes some responsibility for the financial and psychological welfare not only of that child but also of its parents. Of course, we don’t even begin to have enough community in this country either to fit the bill or to foot the bill. Until such time as we do, a simplistic policy against abortion would... achieve nothing except to return us to where we were forty years ago when the poor had coat hangers and the rich their trips to Sweden.'

- from "Further Along the Road Less Travelled" (1993), p 182.

This sounds to me much like Ross's reasoning, and also that of the Constitutional Courts of West Germany and Spain (two countries where judges know more first-hand about "oppression" than NY Times op-ed writers) when they struck down or revised legislative attempts to legalise abortion on demand.

This sounds to me much like Ross's reasoning, and also that of the Constitutional Courts of West Germany and Spain (two countries where judges know more first-hand about "oppression" than NY Times op-ed writers) when they struck down or revised legislative attempts to legalise abortion on demand.

I can't say I am familiar with all of the European abortion policies and legal decisions, but I have to say, it would seem to me that assumptions that since restrictions on abortion may work somewhat well in the context of the European social safety net, such restrictions would work here in America seem to gloss over fundamental distinctions between our culture and theirs.

There are deep and complex reasons why we don't have that sort of a safety net here (let alone the fact that unlike Ross, most of the folks who oppose abortion have no interest in building one or allying with political forces who would build one).

At best, what you and Ross and Tom O'Gorman are saying is that in a different political culture that tolerates a higher level of social spending, it may be possible to mitigate at least some of the effects of restrictions on abortion, making such restrictions somewhat more palatable. That proves nothing about what is possible or likely in the US, however.

As that rare animal, a pro-life liberal, I loved this column. Here are my additional thoughts:

One desperately needed measure for a pro-life society is a commitment to subsidized contraception for low-income women (something Bush has rolled back, and something the Catholic hierarchy actively opposes). Natural family planning does NOT enable a woman to reliably limit her childbearing to what a single mom can support- and many low income women have little chance to marry a man who will contribute economicially to the family. Very few people can (or should) use abstinence as a life-long strategy. Contraception is not cheap, and if it's a choice between buying birth control or paying the rent...

Another way to spend money to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe- without ending up with 70s style welfare dependency- is to spend money on child care subsidies- which were already inadequate under Clinton and Bush has greatly reduced. If a low income single mom who can barely afford child care for one child gets pregnant again, and knows she simply cannot pay for child care for two, she has little option other than abortion.

Finally, it would help to STOP THE WAR ON DRUGS. If minority communities face a situation where a large percentage of the marriage-aged men are in jail, what on earth do we expect their pregnant girlfriends to do?

Rod Blaine replies: "I do dispute his repeated characterisation of the deaths of Iraqis as "pointless". He seems to imagine that, if the Ba'athists and al-Qaeda-ists and Iranian stooges had done as the Eastern European Communists and South African white right did - ie, had recognised "Game's over, folks. We've lost our hegemony; constitutional democracy is here to stay. Let's lay down our weapons and stop killing our fellow countrypeople" - then Dubya and Cheney would have been disappointed, as this would deprive them of a rationale for killing Arabs. If the Abu Ghraib perps had not been prosecuted and convicted, but instead had an Insititute for Recreational Torture Rights named in their honour, then the parallel with abortion might make more sense.

That Moe considers the goal of bringing democracy to Middle Eastern dictatorships "pointless," in comparison to Amy Richards' goal of not buying ketchup at Costco, is one reason why I do not take his pro-abortion pacifism terribly seriously. Doubtless Moe's own plan for freeing Iraqis from Saddam would have found a way to persuade the insurgents not to assassinate UN envoys or disrupt multi-party elections. I look forward to hearing the details. "

Where to start? I'm not a pacifist, of course. I'm just not in favor of aggressive wars raged under false pretenses. I can't even imagine being stupid enough to think that the Iraq war was begun in order to "free Iraqis from Saddam" or to "bring democracy to Middle Eastern dictatorhips." Come on, Rod, you can't possibly have your head far enough up Dick Cheney's pasty ass to believe such nonsense.

And if you actually think that what Iraq has now is worthy of being called a "constitutional democracy," then I'm just awed - you're officially dumber than Peter Leavitt, and he's the 1927 Yankees of Stupid. Iraq is an occupied country and their "leaders" can't fart without American permission. No sovereignty, no "constitutional democracy."

Ross: Your post is intriguing, but it is wrong on two counts. One, I think if Roe is overturned, there is very, very little chance that a national ban could take place. There will always be 40+1 Senators to fillibuster that legislation, it would violate any shred of conception of "states rights", and I am not sure there are even enough votes for 50%+1 support in either House of Congress.

Secondly, if Roe is overturned, what would result is soemthing very predictible: A number of Blue states will keep abortion legal, and women who want to terminate their pregnancies will have to travel to those states to receive abortions. So you will have many states on the East and West coast allowing abortion, with Illinois in the middle. It will become like what we saw in the EU over the last few decades, especially in Ireland, where women will travel to countries to terminate their pregnancies, even if their home area forbids it.

Of course, some women will carry a pregnancy to full birth rather than travel to another state for an abortion. And we will get more out-of-wedlock birth as a result. And no, conservatives will not support expanded welfare support-they have shown contempt for that even when it was much cheaper than it would be in your imaginary pro-life regime. And if you think father's will stick it out more or people will wait until their mid-20s to start families in this post-Roe America, you are foolish on both culture and biology.

Ross, just as a clarification, which of the following concepts most closely encapsulates what you believe:

1. Roe should be overturned. The states should then be left to decide their policies on abortion without any additional interference from the federal government (nothing beyond laws like the current so-called partial birth ban).

2. Roe should be overturned. The federal government should then push the states to ban abortion the same way they pushed for states to make the drinking age 21 (it gets tied to $$$).

3. Roe should be overturned. The federal government should make abortion illegal on a federal level and enforce the law in every state, no matter what the states want (similar to the current situation with medicinal marijuana).

4. A constitutional amendment banning abortion is passed.

Please note: I am asking what you want, not what you think is possible. I think that 4 will never happen, and 2 and 3 are not likely, but I'm asking what you believe would be the best policy, regardless of the possibility of its actually becoming policy.

Or another option, if I haven't described what you would like.

By the way, Ross and his commenters shouldn't fall for the idea that abortion bans were common in "Communist hellholes." Romania was an exception; from the 1950s onward most other Eastern bloc nations had very liberal abortion laws. In some nations, such as East Germany and the U.S.S.R. itself, the abortion rate was quite high. When Germany reunified, the restrictive abortion law in the West was a major bone of contention in the reunification negotiations, and unfortunately, the Christian Democrats caved on the issue.

Today abortion is legal in all remaining overtly Communist states, including North Korea, the quintessential "hellhole." (Some Communist-leaning but not overtly Communist states, like Hector's favorite Venezuela, do have abortion bans.)

Over the long run, my assumption is that a ban on abortion, by changing the incentives of sexual behavior and family formation, would actually end up reducing out-of-wedlock births, welfare spending, and all the rest of it, and that a short-term investment in a pro-life welfare state

The weakest aspect of the pro-life position is not in its diagnosis of the problem, but in its offering of a viable solution. This excerpt does a fairly good job of illustrating this.

1. It assumes a ban on abortion will change sexual behavior. Some of that might occur, but sexual behavior is governed at least as much by irrational components as rational components. People will still exhibit reckless sexual behavior and still try to sidestep the "consequences" because we're wired that way. Which means abortions will still happen in large (though lower) numbers.

2. It assumes poverty is caused by the lack of a family. This is not the case. Poverty is caused by lack of access/opportunity or by individual deficiencies (alcohol/drug addiction, mental defect through either biology or outside abuse). Lack of family units is an additional symptom of poverty's causes, not a cause, itself. Banning abortion will create more people who are likely to fall into eventual poverty--not less.

3. Politics being politics, there is no such thing as a temporary, short-term investment in the welfare state. The only candidate this cycle who proposed a reduction in the welfare state, Ron Paul, is considered a quack, in part, because of it. Another government reducer in the house, Jeff Flake, is a pariah among his colleagues.

4. Like many of the ideas that social conservatives propose, social conservatives believe abortion bans will lead to a more just society. While I can see the logic behind such a statement, I tend to think a whopping increase in otherwise non-dangerous young women serving life sentences isn't any better than the status quo. Make no mistake, under an abortion ban, that's what will happen.

Mr. LaFollette,

Re: To require women to be "sacred vessels" for the unborn, against their wishes, is inherently patriarchal. It is thoroughly incompatible with genuine freedom and political equality for women, which is why the right to an abortion became such a fiercely contested issue in the first place.

You're asserting that banning abortion _by definition_ is a patriarchal act. I don't know how I would go about disproving that, since you've kind of begged the question. I might start by pointing out that South American countries where abortion is illegal under almost all circumstances generally have better educated women, a higher status for women, and more sexual freedom than Asian countries where abortion is legal. Ireland, where abortion is illegal, has had two women prime ministers....when are we going to see our first Woman President?

I would define a law as being oppressive to women if it prevents them from taking part in a way of life that I would define to be 'good'. Education is a good, therefore denying education to women would be sexist. To be able to fulfil one's nature through one's labor and livelihood is a good, therefore denying qualified women access to (most) jobs would also be sexist. On the contrary, I don't think that the freedom to destroy unborn life is a good thing- for society, for the woman or for her child- and so I don't think that I am denying women anything worth having, when I say that it should be illegal.

You seem to be assuming that freedom- 'over one's body' or whatever- is an unqualified good, so to deny women that kind of freedom is a bad thing. Not so. I don't think _any_ of us have unqualified freedom in that sense. I don't think men should be free to use pornography, if it comes to that, which is pretty much something that only men ever do- does that make me anti-men? Nor do I think one should be free to use drugs, or patronize prostitutes, or to do all sorts of other things that men are more likely to do.

I think the point that makes "4 Months.." relevant to the abortion debate in this country is that if you make a side by side comparison of countries where abortion is legal to countries where it isn't, one begins to notice a pattern: places one could consider raising a family to fucking hellhole where being aborted is probably the best possible option for the "unborn."

Furthermore, for me at least, despite the first comment, the leftoevers from the abortion in "4 Months" as well as the footage in "Lake of Fire" only further gird my belief that a fetus is no way a "baby", nor should we pretend otherwise. I commend "4 months.." for not shying away from the physical reality of abortion in ways I'm sure even a "pro-choice" American film wouldn't dare show. But for me at least, it inspired no sympathy or emotion as to the killing of a "baby." It reminded me more of removing a tumor or some other kind of growth. Try giving a rattle to fetus or putting it in a crib, and then try and tell me that it's no different than a child.

Furthermore, by making abortion illegal or at the very least near impossible to aquire, one is only ensuring that these kind of second and third trimester operations take place, as the party in question only becomes more and more desperate and open to exploitation and physical harm. In my ideal society any woman or any age, at any stage of pregnancy would be able to walk into any hospital, anywhere in this country and chose either option totally unecumbered by asinine "counseling" or hand-wringing from either side. She would either get top-notch, free pre-natal care, or could terminate her pregnacy right there on demand, no questions asked, her privacy and life completely protected. That is what a "pro-life" society would look like.

Also, "orgasms uber alles" is one of the better phrases I've heard recently, even though I'm not sure it was meant to be complimentary towards my point of view, it certainly summed up my basic view that the "life" of a fetus is in every way subordinate to a good, stiff orgasm.

your analysis starts with the presumption that the anti-abortion movement is primarily motivated by a concern for all human life, born and otherwise. oh, that it were so. my secretary is a staunch baptist (the widow of one preacher, the mother and mother in law of two more). her attitude toward abortion is fairly typical. she cannot comprehend a lifestyle that results in pregnancy, nor can she fathom any rationale for unnaturally ending one.

not long ago, i suggested to her that the abortion debate could perhaps be solved by science. an unwanted fetus could be removed from the mother and given to a fertility clinic to be stored until claimed by some willing recipient. instead of harassing abortion clinic patients, the antis could prove their devotion to life by trotting their little sadie sue down to the clinic as soon as she was of age. my proposal horrified my secretary. the prospect that some fornicator might escape the consequences of liberated life deeply offended her.

with a fair portion of the antis, its not about life, its about punishment. why do you think they proudly claim to be 'conservative'? they're opposed to just about every program that would lessen the burden of poor children, calvinism in it purest form.

i have no illusions about what motivates most of the 'pro life' movement, so spare me your sanctimony, please.

A compromise that follows months or terms is, I think, a workable solution (though, I admit, not one I like).

But a compromise that does not follow months--such as the exception for rape and incest--poses problems. One of the biggest problems concerns the wording or implementation of legislation to legalize abortions solely in the case of rape or incest. Just sit back and think about how this would actually work.

In terms of rape, would a woman simply have to say, gee, I was raped, and voila, she would be allowed to have an abortion? Or sign an affidavit of some sort saying that she had been raped? If so, don't expect the number of abortions to decline.

But what if a woman is required to prove that she had been raped, as might be the case? What kind of proof will be required? Physical, or legal? Who will she have to prove her rape to? Will she have to name the man?

What happens if she hadn't reported the rape soon after it happened (soon enough for a rape kit), and therefore there was little or no physical evidence by the time she discovered that she was pregnant and went to the police/hospital? What if she is required to file a police report? And go to court? Would her abortion be denied if the physical evidence was not conclusive? If she lost the court case?

And doesn't all of this place an incredible burden on women? Women who--lets not forget, please--are the true victims here? Are we really going to make victims go through additional hurdles?

And are we really willing to accept a system that places blame on a woman for not reporting her rape soon enough?

This approach could lead to the lovely conclusions of, well, she should have reported the rape immediately! And taken a pregnancy test immediately! Which to me sounds an awfully lot like, it was her fault. And I think we, as a society, should be past that.

Mr. Kabala,

It's somewhat different- and I would say, less shameful- when a non-Christian country like Vietnam or for that matter, India, has legal abortion. While abortion is certainly (very much so) against natural law, this was one of the aspects of natural law that was generally not acknowledged either in the pre-Christian era or in the non-Christian world, and it isn't widely understood by Buddhists or Hindus even today.

The Marxist-Leninist countries were generally atheistic or at best strongly secular, and this was why they had legal abortion (I would think that their atheism was also the source of most of what was wrong with them). Nicaragua in the 1980s, Peru in the '60s and Venezuela and Bolivia today, explicitly set themselves in contradistinction to Cuba and Eastern European countries by not professing atheism, and the fact that none of them legalized abortion is probably related to that. (Oddly enough, Fidel Castro in the last few years started making some critical comments about abortion, and this is one among a few indications that he might be thinking about an Oscar Wilde style deathbed conversion).

If abortion is made illegal, it is not all of a sudden going to stop abortion. I sometimes get the impression that the pro-life crowd thinks that banning abortion will actually get rid of it. Just like prohibtion got rid of drinking. Will their be a spike in births? Sure. But there are still going to be thousands - if not tens of thousands - of abortions performed every year. And these abortions are going to be much more dangerous. I'm not saying I "endorse" abortion, but even if you think abortion is evil, legal or illegal, legal abortion is the lesser of those two evils.

The attention being paid to Romanian abortion policy is misleading. Romania was unusual among Soviet Bloc European countries in being anti-abortion. The Soviet Union encouraged abortion, and the women averaged about six abortions each in the Soviet Union.

I would define a law as being oppressive to women if it prevents them from taking part in a way of life that I would define to be 'good'.

If

"oppression" is the state's interference in an individual's ability to partake in something it has defined as "good,"

it follows that

"liberty" is the state's allowance for an individual to partake in any activity arbitrarily defined as "good."

That's not only the narrowest definition of "liberty" that I've ever seen, but it also goes against the ideas of every conservative thinker I can recall at the moment (though I haven't read much Kirk).

To Hector, who has the post above me. What was wrong with the marxist-leninist countries was not thier atheism, but their marxism-leninism.

Secondly, atheism does not mean you support abortion. I support keeping it legal, but that does not mean I support it morally.

Thirdly, those south american countries and the periods you mention, were democracies when their leftist/socialist governments came to power. They were not dictatorships, which meant that they to listen to some extent to their (highly religious) populace.

Fourthly, those same countries have plenty of abortions, they're just not safe ones.

And finally, the deathbead conversion of Oscar Wilde doesn't mean much. Wilde was an aesthete through and through. Wilde like catholicism on that level, not a spiritual one. But he had no wish to live as a catholic, which is why he only converted on his deathbed.

Steve: Thanks, but I already pointed that out.

Oh my, you must all be very young. Anyone who had past puberty before Roe will remember all about the availability of illegal abortions. Some were up to medical standards, and some were nauseating back alley jobs, but they weren't rare. Today chemical abortions have replaced medical abortions in large part of Latin America, and we all know how able the government is to keep drugs out of the hand of people who want them. To even begin to think about a post-Roe future without mentioning illegal abortions is like imagining that Prohibition would solve society's problems with alcohol or that the War on Drugs will ever succeed. Reality based sex education and contraception can cut the abortion rate, but overturning Roe,,,I don't think so.

Ross, I hope you enjoy belonging to the fairy tale conservative movement. You could not be more wrong about what will happen given the actual conservative movement.

LaFollette Progressive is right on target about what will happen as long as we are not getting into the impossibility of enforcement of a ban and the political effect of numerous women dying after having unsafe, illegal abortions, i.e. the coat hanger effect.

Steve Sailer wrote: "The Soviet Union encouraged abortion, and the women averaged about six abortions each in the Soviet Union."

Though it should be mentioned that Stalin outlawed abortion in 1936. Of course the rate of abortion still remained high, as it will in the US even if the lifers get their way and Roe is tossed out.

Ross' original post ignores two main things. First, 1/3 of abortions are from women who are or were married and 2/3 already have children. The question of who has abortion is more complex than assuming a ban would just spike out of wedlock births.

The second and more significant logical fallacy is that everything Ross suggests could be enacted right now without banning abortion. If we provided a very strong social support net abortion would decrease. Which abortions would stop without a legal ban that would stop with just the increased social support. Women who do not want to risk their lives/health giving birth to a child with serious/terminal medical issues would still seek abortion. Women who have the money, but not the energy/time to support additional children would still seed abortion (unless you are also advocating free day car and nannies)

The wealthy and much of the middle class would still have ways to get abortions. Thus the spike would mostly be in poor women who already have too many children to handle. Why is this a good policy?

The fact is that very, very little of anti-abortion sentiment or legislation is motivated by concern for the fetus. Nearly all of it is motivated by the desire to show those uppity women who is boss. This is shown by the fact that so much of the discussion about abortion includes allowances for abortion in the case of rape. If abortion were really murder, really the slaughter of another human being as its opponents claim, then murdering a person who resulted from rape would be no better or worse than murdering a person who resulted from a broken condom.

No, anti-abortion wackos are pretty definitively primarily about putting women back into second-class status and punishing those women who dare to have sex before entering into the proper patriarchal institution. This is transparently obvious to anyone with functioning brain cells. Fetal life is just a cudgel with which to beat them back into submission. Dreams of abortion prohibition that contain expanded welfare, subsidies for contraception, subsidies for child care, etc are laughable fantasies. Enacting those policies wouldn't properly punish women, which is what anti-abortion activists really want.

While I can see the logic behind such a statement, I tend to think a whopping increase in otherwise non-dangerous young women serving life sentences isn't any better than the status quo. Make no mistake, under an abortion ban, that's what will happen.

I don't think Ross, or much of anyone with any real chance of impacting things, is advocating "life sentences" for women -- or even, most likely, for abortionists. Unless maybe the "life sentence" is having a kid, which sounds like one pro-choice view of motherhood (it's like a really harsh jail term).

The fact is that very, very little of anti-abortion sentiment or legislation is motivated by concern for the fetus. Nearly all of it is motivated by the desire to show those uppity women who is boss.

Hey, Andrew, so's your momma. I guess we can make this another abortion "debate" that consists of pro-choice people saying pro-life people hate women (even if they are women), and pro-life folks saying pro-choice people just think that killing babies is a fun and pleasant way to make sure orgasms are as cost-free as possible. And you know, what since you get personal about motivations? If you can't imagine other reasons why the public (and moderately pro-life folks) are less happy with banning abortions in case of rape, you're not just stupid, you're barely human in your emotional capabilities.

So Marquis, murdered anyone whose mother was raped recently? Gonna argue that if my mother was raped, then I'm not really human, that I don't have the right to live? Face it, if a fetus conceived of a broken condom is totally, 100% an individual human being and killing them is murder, then so is a fetus conceived of rape. But of course, anyone advocating for abortion bans can imagine poor little Susie getting raped. Then everyone will unjustly think she's a dirty, dirty slut! Horror! Abortion opponents wouldn't want that happening, they only want the real sluts burdened with shame.

The same percentage of Americans had premarital sex in the 1950s as now. 90+%. Outlawing abortion won't change sexual behavior. If premarital births are up, what has changed, I presume, is the number of shotgun weddings.

You could aim to have more shotgun weddings without outlawing abortion if it is out of wedlock births you want to reduce. Reducing premarital (or extra marital) sex is not likely.

Shinyk,

In case you are new to this blog, I'm _not_ a conservative. Anything but.

Josh,

I believe that most everything that was wrong with the Marxist countries was a direct or indirect result of their atheism- from the central planning to the ideological purges. This was their tragic flaw, as Péguy predicted a century ago. A Christianized socialism would have been more gentle and humane and would not have fallen of its own contradictions.

Nicaragua wasn't a 'democracy' (whatever that means in the context of a country like Nicaragua) in 1979, and Peru was only formally a democracy (essentially an oligarchy) in 1968. Velasco and, possibly, Ortega could easily have legalized abortion by decree if they had wanted to. Oscar Wilde's conversion, by the way, was officially accepted as legitimate by the church.

Dearleader,

I suppose, then, Ireland is a worse place to live than Japan. And Brazil is a worse place to be a woman than India. Are you serious??!

What about protection from God? God kills 25% of human babies in the first few months of pregnancy. Are you also going to advocate that we expand our laws to protect against this murdering abortionist?

How dare he take human life! Doesn't he know it's sacred?

In any event, President Hillary Clinton will sign the Freedom of Choice Act into law, and the fight will be over, (at least until there's a right-to-life supermajority in the Senate, which means, probably never).

In case you are new to this blog, I'm _not_ a conservative. Anything but.

My first thought was that those constricting definitions of "liberty" and "oppression" sounded vaguely Soviet in their narrowness, but didn't want to insult through that implication.

Since that connection is unlikely to insult someone who resents the assumption that he is conservative, I'll make it now.

Hector,

Just because you believe that what was wrong with Marxist-Leninist countries was atheism, does not necessarily make it so. Belief in marxism-communism etc. has long been likened to religious belief in its dogmatism and its intolerance and supression of criticism. This is not a new observation. If I remember correctly, it dates to the 20's.

And as for christian socialism, do you really think christians socialists would necessarily be more gentle? Christians (not to mention members of other religous faiths) were killing scores upon scores of people for wrong thinking long before Marx. And you can always remember that Stalin was at one time a seminary student.

And ok, maybe those south american countries were democracies in name only, but leaders like Ortega still needed popular support, so they are not going to do something like legalize abortion, especially if their position may be tenuous.

And as for Oscar Wilde's deathbed conversion, just because the Vatican accepts something as legitimate does not make it so either. The Vatican accepted the "miracle" that made Mother Theresa a saint. But as Christopher Hitchens has shown, that "miracle" was pretty dubious.

Realistically a national ban on abortion is probably unlikely. A Constitutional Amendment would require, I believe, 33 state legislatures to agree. This is not likely to occur.

Most plausibly overturning Roe would result in some states having strict restrictions, others having a few more restrictions than now without going totally strict, and the rest remaining almost exactly the same. Women who are determined on having abortions will have to drive further.

If a ban on abortion were to happen the abortion rate-per-pregnancy would most likely go down, but no it wouldn't stop altogether. (The ban on contract-killing has certainly not stopped that either, but I do think the "War on Hitmen" has done more good than harm. I'm not a legalization type on the issue) Still in 1983, before current restrictions, Poland officially had 200,000 to 300,000 abortions a year. Although some estimates placed it much higher.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802EFDC1E38F930A15756C0A965948260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=all

Abortion is now highly restricted in Poland. In 2006 the Pro-Choice "Women on waves" high-end estimate was for 200,000 illegal, plus the 150 legal, abortions for year in Poland.

http://www.womenonwaves.org/article-358-en.html

The population is larger now, but the fertility rate lower. The math is therefore tricky and could mean the rate-per-pregnancy either increased a bit or decreased. Still decreased is the most likely way to calculate it.

In the short-term the result of the decrease would probably mean an increased use of birth control of various sorts and plausibly an increase in other ways of non-procreative sex. Judging by Poland and other cases we would not experience an increase in overall fertility. Although plausibly birth rates among uneducated people would increase. Some pro-lifers would support an expanded welfare-state to do that and with the Republican party weakened, as they would be as many pro-lifers would vote Democrat if it weren't for this issue, it likely would happen.

Every human life IS protected, Ross--let's please stop politicizing fetus-Americans. All children ARE legitimate -- to judge them on whether their biological fathers and mothers are married is backward, and solves nothing.

I applaud your realism -- that children need care, irrespective of their parents' abilities to provide it. And principle alone will not sustain the emotional arguments against RU-486, rape/incest exceptions, etc.

But enough with the empty slogans, Ross, please: I have, as of this date, two children and zero abortions. I oppose the war in Iraq and capital punishment. I support charities that mitigate the suffering of children and adults. I am as consistently PRO-LIFE as they come. I just happen to think ones views about abortion are the province of individual conscience, and not of government fiat. I am pro-life. I am not anti-choice. Nobody who holds the very principles upon which this Republic was founded can be anti-choice. At least not without compromising the core values elucidated in our framing documents.

Thomas R.,

The article says that Women on Waves estimated 80,000-200,000 abortions in Poland today- I would think that the low estimate is more accurate. I don't particularly trust an organization like Women on Waves not to inflate the statistics to their own benefit. That would indeed indicate a large decline in the abortion rate.

Interestingly, according to the UN statistics, most Polish women rely on natural family planning and not on contraception, one of the few countries where natural family planning is widely practiced.

I agree with you about the likely consequences of a ban on abortion. Indeed, there are many countries where abortion is mostly illegal, which have achieved fertility levels of replacement or below- Poland, Portugal, Ireland, Chile, Costa Rica, Argentina and Brazil among others.

Interesting Discussion

A modest proposal.

I was talking about this issue with a firemly pro-choice friend recently who did admit that there was one situation under which she would be happy to accept strict abortion limitations. That would be if every male in the US made a sperm deposit and got a vasectomy right after puberty. That way there would never be any unwanted children and the only abortions would be in cases where there was an obvious and unavoidable serious threat to the mothers health (ectopic pregnancy,etc) or perhaps massive birth defects (is there really a point to carrying to term an ancephalic fetus with no brain that will die shortly after birth and was arguably never alive in brain activity terms).

This would largely eliminate the threat of pregnancy from rape or incest, so those excuses would not longer be necessary, unless foreign travelo was involved.

At the very least, it would cut the abortion rate by the success rate of vasectomy as birth control. Wouldn't 99% fewer abortions be a good thing?

I realize that this might cause VD rates to increase, since fear of pregnancy would not scare people out of having sex. It would also be very expensive, but how much do we currently spend on unwanted pregnancies, both those carried to term and aborted. Also, we could avoid much of the spending on other forms of birth control (except condoms), including the indirect health effects of birth control pills.

My apologies if this idea is already a dead horse. I just found this blog. A pointer to the discussion would be appreciated.

Andrew,

I actually agree -- abortion is murder in the case of rape or incest. But that people feel such sympathy for victims in these cases that they're willing to either simply be morally inconsistent or come up with a (possibly bogus) argument that it'