« Kennedy Versus Nixon | Main | Have the New Atheists Read Nietzsche? »

Imagining A Pro-Life America

29 Jan 2008 11:39 am

During the long, long arguments about the implicit pro-life messages, or lack thereof, in films like Knocked Up and Juno, my interlocutors frequently made the point that even if the movies were mildly pro-life, they weren't effective arguments for an anti-abortion position, because neither film’s storyline actually reflected the experience of most American women who consider terminating their pregnancy. Which is fair enough so far as it goes - but if that’s the case do I really have to endure the suggestion, from J. Hoberman among others, that a film set in Ceauşescu's Romania has more relevance than any of them to the American abortion debate?

Hoberman's piece seems as good a peg as any to hang an argument that I don’t think either side in the abortion debate has contemplated seriously enough – namely, that any successful attempt, in a post-Roe world, to ban or strictly regulate abortion in the United States would amount to an epic social experiment, with no obvious antecedents in our own history or any other country’s. The U.S. isn’t a Communist hellhole or a patriarchal Third World society, and it isn’t at all the same country that it was the last time abortion was widely illegal. It’s a post-feminist, post-sexual revolution society, and any attempt at restricting abortion that hopes to succeed – whether legally, politically or morally – would have to take these realities into account to a far greater degree than, say, the hapless attempt at a blanket ban that South Dakota passed two years ago. Designing abortion restrictions for contemporary America would require compromises on the part of pro-lifers, obviously – not only on rape and incest but also probably on the availability and distribution of the morning-after pill. But more than that, it would almost certainly require large-scale (and expensive) experimentation with the American welfare state, to address the needs of the hundreds of thousands of pregnant women each year who would suddenly no longer have the option of aborting their unborn - and the hundreds of thousands of children who would come into the world as a result.

What exact form this sort of experimentation would take I'm not sure; it's a thorny enough subject to make a topic for a long essay or even a book. But over the short term, there's no question that it would require conservatives to temporarily table many of their longstanding policy goals - from cutting illegitimacy rates to reducing welfare dependency to limiting the size of government – in the name of the pro-life cause. (This goes for me as much as for anyone else: While Grand New Party assumes that the GOP will remain a staunchly pro-life party, the agenda it proposes also assumes that the landscape of abortion politics will remain roughly as it is today for the foreseeable future.) Over the long run, my assumption is that a ban on abortion, by changing the incentives of sexual behavior and family formation, would actually end up reducing out-of-wedlock births, welfare spending, and all the rest of it, and that a short-term investment in a pro-life welfare state (and an acceptance of the short term spike in illegitimacy, dependency and government spending that would presumably accompany it) would prove a boon to conservatism in the end. But that's a long-term hope, not a short-term plan - and even if that assumption weren’t borne out, I still think that a higher illegitimacy rate and a more expensive and intrusive welfare state would be a small price to pay for a country where every human being enjoyed the protection of the laws.

Obviously, not everyone on the Right would agree, which is one reason why the abortion debate ultimately cuts across party lines, if not across party platforms. (As Reihan notes, Will Saletan’s Bearing Right is the book to read on the subject.) And just as obviously, the scenario I just sketched out probably never come to pass; even if Roe disappears, I suspect that the country will settle into an equilibrium more pro-choice than pro-life, with more chances for experimentation with abortion policy but not all that many more. But if real opportunities do arise and the pro-life movement seizes them, I think it's safe to say that the results will look, in policy and practice alike, unlike any abortion regime that now exists, or has ever existed before.

Comments (130)

I didn't expect to post a criticism of your writing Ross, but as for your knock on Hoberman, I'm afraid he's quite right. "4 Months" *is* a more realistic film about abortion that "Juno" (I haven't seen "Knocked Up," but doubt it trucks in "realism"), and a better film all around.

And because "4 Months" is realistic, it's no doubt a much more unsettling film for pro-choicers to watch. The only fair conclusion one can draw from it about unborn life is that, yes, that fetus is pretty much undeniably a baby, and the only thing seperating we in America from the women in Romania is that we have facilities that dispose of the fetuses without us having to see that disposal and take responsibility for it.

The film is amazing on that level, a knockout that's stayed with me -- and grown stronger -- since I saw it several weeks ago.

Those critics and viewers who boil the movie's message down to "isn't it nice abortion in America is safe and legal" are missing what makes the film so powerful. The same thing is true about Mike Leigh's "Vera Drake" from a few years back, which shows an at times naive woman carrying out abortions for women in trouble, oblivious to the consequences of her actions. But that film ends with a feminist call to arms of sorts, whereas "4 Months" ends with a chilling discussion between two women that suggests abortion is but one aspect -- a microcosm, perhaps -- of Communist oppression.

Ross,

I disagree with you on most political issues, but that was a masterpiece of analysis. It's nice to see that you are willing to accept an expanded welfare state and to ackowledge that feminism and the sexual revolution is, at least in its essence, here to stay for the foreseeable future. I would be 100% behind a pro-life regime that banned abortion while expanding the welfare state and encouraging both natural family planning and contraception.

I should add that I think the welfare state and _to a certain extent_ the sexual revolution are good things and I don't hope that they go away, nor do I think they will. You're welcome to hope, of course, as I'm welcome to hope that the end of abortion leads to the replacement of late capitalism by a more just and humane economic system.

And just as obviously, the scenario I just sketched out probably never come to pass; even if Roe disappears, I suspect that the country will settle into an equilibrium more pro-choice than pro-life, with more chances for experimentation with abortion policy but not all that many more.

Nonsense. Organized anti-abortion groups will not spontaneously disappear should Roe be overturned. They will essentially aim to create a patchwork of abortion laws across the US, with total bans in places like Alabama. They will also, finally, be able to take aim what they're really after: Griswold. This crowd wants no legal precident that acknowledges a right to privacy, a concept which they loathe.

But, hey, remember, it's Ross:

ban on abortion + ban on gay marriage = higher middle class wages.

Savage View,

Even if Griswold was overturned, it wouldn't matter. Virtually _no one_ in America is pushing for a ban or even restrictions on contraception. The Catholic Church, its own views of contraception notwithstanding (which have signally failed to have much influence on lay Catholics) is not pushing for a ban on contraception _anywhere in the world_, not even in overwhelmingly Catholic countries in South America, let alone here. The other churches have by and large accepted contraception. So _where_ do you think is the threat?

They will also, finally, be able to take aim what they're really after: Griswold. This crowd wants no legal precident that acknowledges a right to privacy, a concept which they loathe.

SavageView: as Hector notes, this is pretty much crazy talk. Griswold is not going anywhere, even if it was bad Constitutional law -- the justices who might barely overturn Roe are fairly clearly for the most part uninterested in revisiting Griswold, and even if Griswold vanished, what state do you think a ban on contraception could even _begin_ to get sufficient support to be established in? Among other points, a good part of the pro-life movement these days is driven by Protestants who often don't have any objections to most contraception.

I strongly disagree with your assumptions about the long-term effects of an abortion ban, but I'll pause for a moment to thank you for your efforts to think through the much more obvious short-term implications. That's more than I can say for most partisans on either side of the issue.

Your first false assumption, as is usually the case in your writing, is that the conservative movement will cease being anti-tax, anti-welfare zealots and will gradually morph into German Christian Democrats. That is to say, they will not only pay politically advantageous lip service to the idea that the American welfare state must "address the needs of the hundreds of thousands of pregnant women each year," but they'll follow through, year after year, at budget time. We've seen this shell game before with the promises made about mitigating the harms caused by free trade, and we'll undoubtedly see it again.

While it's perhaps true that "a short-term investment in a pro-life welfare state (and an acceptance of the short term spike in illegitimacy, dependency and government spending that would presumably accompany it) would prove a boon to conservatism in the end," that boon to conservatism would almost certainly take the form of resurrecting the welfare queen mythos for the purpose of wedge politics.

But there's a more important blind spot in your argument. You note that this is not a patriarchal third world society, but you don't seem to grasp that banning abortion is inevitably going to drag this country back in that direction. To require women to be "sacred vessels" for the unborn, against their wishes, is inherently patriarchal. It is thoroughly incompatible with genuine freedom and political equality for women, which is why the right to an abortion became such a fiercely contested issue in the first place.

An abortion ban is not going to magically allow this country to settle into a new pro-life equilibrium. It will simply mobilize the country for another round of the never-ending culture war. This is a genie you can't put back into the bottle in a free, post-sexual revolution society.

Sorry for the typo. Precident -> precedent. I should use that preview button.

As for Juno... I don't want to flog a dead horse, but...

That movie shows a young woman making a brave and unconventional choice, but it also shows us a young woman with tremendous self-confidence and a supportive family who was about to give birth to a highly marketable white child. Most single mothers lack some, or all, of those advantages. Given the history and cultural character of this country, I'd say the actual political support for a sexually liberated, color-blind society with a robust welfare state and an abortion ban polls somewhere below Dennis Kucinich.

You've thought through most of the relevant issues, but at root you're clinging to a fantasy.

There are days on which I hope Roe does get overturned, if only to watch the true ugliness of the "pro-life" crowd get revealed. I foresee Jesoid-driven states allowing would-be "fathers" to get their "host mothers" locked up to prevent them from traveling to an "abortion state." Won't that be fun?

We already know that most Republicans have no problem with torture or the pointless murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, so why would a little thing like this scenario bother them? The answer is that it wouldn't, not even a little bit. "She should have thought of that before she opened her legs." I can just see Schlafly and Donohue saying just that with their pinched nasty-ass fanatic faces on every other broadcast on Fox.

Contraception is only part of Griswold. Your lot (whether left-wing Christianists like Hector or right-wing ones like TMC, both experts at "crazy talk") does not want any legal principle that recognizes a right to privacy. You simply don't have the balls to say it outright.

But remember:

ban on abortion + ban on gay marriage = higher middle class wages!

Or something like that.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

If you didn't exist, some satirst would have to invent you. You're such a cartoon. It always brightens my day imagining you so earnest and angry, stabbing your fingers on the keys begging for the world to notice you with each comment more outrageous and vile than the last.

I've long wondered whether Ireland might provide a model for pro-life laws in a modern Western country. Surely they've had to deal with a lot of the issues Ross raises. On the other hand, perhaps Irish culture has already accomodated the pro-life legal background, whereas in the US we would be layering a pro-life legal regime onto a culture that evolved in a pro-choice environment. Still...

Does this scenario include the Republican Party marginalizing itself amongst women voters, much the way it has amongst African-Americans, and becoming a permanent minority party?

I appreciate what Ross is trying to do here, but he ignores several salient issues:

1. Many people in the pro-life movement are not simply, or principally, motivated by a desire to save the lives of fetuses. They don't promote contraceptive use, they don't support efforts (other than abstinence education) to reduce the teenage pregnancy rate and make abortions less likely, and they certainly don't support the welfare state that Ross can accept. Rather, they may care about fetal life, but in the context of also believing that banning abortion WILL roll back the sexual revolution and feminism and push Americans back towards traditional, allegedly Biblically-mandated gender roles.

So what is going to happen with the ACTUAL American pro-life movement if Roe is overturned? I would suggest that it isn't going to be pretty. They are going to go for a national ban on abortion. And if the Republicans control Congress and the Presidency, I don't see how they are going to be able to say no to the movement. Short of that, they will go for federal laws that make it very hard to cross state lines to get an abortion, ban abortions in DC and in any situation where the federal government has sovereignty, pull RU486 off the market, etc.

Further, they will succeed in many states in banning abortions. And those same states (many of which are in the South) will not create welfare safety nets.

The result is going to be a situation where the pro-life movement likely gets a very black eye, as more and more stories are told of young women and girls in the most unfortunate of circumstances being forced to carry babies to term, committing suicide, getting abused by their husbands or boyfriends or parents, etc.

2. The safety net programs that Ross proposes actually carry huge costs of their own. The truth is, we had a similar regime in place in our inner cities before the Clinton welfare reform. The federal government paid unmarried women to have their babies, and many unmarried women got stuck on the dole.

I was never the biggest supporter of welfare reform. But this was a real problem, and blithely saying "we'll restore the safety net" misses that there were big adverse effects resulting from that safety net back when we had it.

3. There probably ARE compromises that might mitigate the effects that I set forth above and lead us to an equilibrium that reduced abortions. Not necessarily compromises I, as a pro-choicer, would love, but compromises that might work and might defuse the issue if most pro-lifers were really willing to live with the feminist, post-sexual revolution society that Ross accepts. For instance, a compromise that restricted abortions to the very early term, or kept RU486 on the market, or placed procedural obstacles in place that made it more difficult to get an abortion while still keeping it in place when a need was shown.

But the pro-life movement is, as far as I can tell, spectacularly uninterested in these sorts of compromises. Maybe they will become more interested in the future. But I get the feeling that for many pro-lifers, a lot of symbolism is invested in making abortion illegal. That is how you tell the world that "every life is precious". But it isn't necessarily how you reduce the abortion rate or move society towards a stable equilibrium with less abortion.

And what I suspect is that therefore the situation Ross posits, even if it came to pass, would be tremendously unstable, as pro-choicers mobilize to get abortion rights protected again, centrists gravitate to pro-choice candidates, Supreme Court appointments once again bring a pro-Roe majority to the Court, etc.

4. Ross doesn't seem to contemplate that there would be massive numbers of illegal abortions in the society he posits. He also doesn't contemplate the bad effects that having large numbers of illegal abortions would have.

Speaking as an Irish pro lifer, I must say I was little taken aback to read that we were either "Communist hell hole" or a "Third World patriarchy". I must have been out.

Anyway, there is all the difference in the world between being anti-abortion and "pro-life". Ireland has a legal regime which prohibits abortion (there are legal exceptions, but these have not been legislated for, and thus, abortion is de facto illegal in all circumstances)

However, thousands of Irish women go abroad every year to have abortions, illustrating that the battle here is not simply political or legal, but also social and cultural.

We do have skyrocketing levels of out of wedlock births, but we have far lower levels of this than other EU countries (not a high bar, it's true) We also have an increasing level of early sexual activity among teens, which long term will probably increase the social pressure to introduce abortion.

The bottom line is that we cope fairly well; there isn't mass pressure to legalise abortions. But women are not seen as "sacred vessels for the unborn, against their wishes"; they make up about 60 per cent of the legal profession, there are more women than men in 3rd level and they are more likely to have a job than other European countries such as Italy where abortion is legal.

To what extent does the UK act as a sort of "safety valve" for Irish abortion demand? Hard to say. UK figures about Irish abortions tell us that Ireland has the lowest abortion rates (expressed as percentage of live births) in Europe. (Dutch figures exclude first trimester abortions, and are therefore not reliable) So while the figure is unacceptably high from a pro life perspective, it is not such as to indicate a looming social crisis. Furthermore, the figures show that the number of Irish women having abortions in the UK is declining, and there is no hard evidence to show women are going elsewhere.

We have decent single mother payments, which are a source of little controversy; then again, so does the UK which has a far higher rate of abortion.

The practicalities can be handled if an incremental approach is followed. With a little bit of good judgment from US pro lifers, a post-Roe world would acknowledge that winning hearts and minds is at least as important as winning legislative and judicial battles.

Activists should seek, not to make abortion illegal at a stroke, but gradually persuaded pluralities in each state that their particular abortion laws were too permissive.

It would be a political impossibility to ban abortion in NY, for example. But would it really be impossible to impose some time limits? Or other limitations? Perhaps it would, but there are certainly other states where gradual restrictions could be introduced.

Meanwhile, there are other states where a ban with just rape and incest exceptions could be introduced almost on day one.

Such a scenario seems healthier to me from a political standpoint than endless arm wrestling over judicial appointments regarding who will or won't overturn Roe.

The bottom line is that we cope fairly well; there isn't mass pressure to legalise abortions. But women are not seen as "sacred vessels for the unborn, against their wishes"; they make up about 60 per cent of the legal profession, there are more women than men in 3rd level and they are more likely to have a job than other European countries such as Italy where abortion is legal.

This is, as you partially concede, because Ireland has outsourced abortion to the UK with a wink and a nudge. Going abroad is not really an option available to women in many parts of the US. Though I suppose it is always going to be an option for successful, professional women, which probably explains why so many moderate Republicans are willing to vote for pro-lifers.

Does this scenario include the Republican Party marginalizing itself amongst women voters, much the way it has amongst African-Americans, and becoming a permanent minority party?

Looking at polling, women are slightly more pro-life than men. I seem to recall that a few more men are abortion absolutists, but that women are more likely to be in the "nothing but incest, rape, and life of mother" camp. Again, there's a lot of varying data here, but I also recall that groups that Republicans do well with now (married women) are the least likely to shift party allegiance over this, and that those they do poorly with (single urban women) already vote the other way anyway. That particular bit of political fallout seems unlikely.

Your lot (whether left-wing Christianists like Hector or right-wing ones like TMC, both experts at "crazy talk") does not want any legal principle that recognizes a right to privacy. You simply don't have the balls to say it outright.

Sure I do. "I don't want a legal principle that recognizes the kind of right to privacy Roe or Griswold acknowledges." Well, more specifically, I don't think the US Constitution features, remotely, such a right, and thus think Griswold (and, of course, Roe) were badly reasoned. So? Griswold simply isn't going anywhere, and if it did the political will for a contraception ban is essentially non-existent in the US, anywhere. Heck, I'm a cranky right-wing Catholic reactionary and for complex reasons I don't know that _I_ would vote for such a ban (laws that are ludicrously removed from the morality of the populace, difficult to enforce, and not essential to the kinds of justice that the state is properly obliged to defend are a bad idea). But even if Hector and I wanted blah blah blah, what does it matter? (Hector doesn't even mind contraception at all, as far as I know). Do you have any reason to think that the Supreme Court would overturn Griswold? It would, for one thing, require such a string of conservative nominees (to the right of Alito and Roberts with respect to precedent, I suspect) that it would only result from a series of stunning presidential and congressional triumphs from the social right. Does that look like our political future?

I mean, come on. I guess it's more reasonable to speculate about Griswold going away than, say, the return of Dred Scott, but that's about it.

Dick Hunter writes: "If you didn't exist, some satirst would have to invent you. You're such a cartoon. It always brightens my day imagining you so earnest and angry, stabbing your fingers on the keys begging for the world to notice you with each comment more outrageous and vile than the last."

Thanks for keeping track, Dick. I'd say something about your own fascinating posts if I could remember ever reading one.

Nothing in my above post is particularly "outrageous and vile," but then you're probably just very sensitive.

Looking at polling, women are slightly more pro-life than men. I seem to recall that a few more men are abortion absolutists, but that women are more likely to be in the "nothing but incest, rape, and life of mother" camp. Again, there's a lot of varying data here, but I also recall that groups that Republicans do well with now (married women) are the least likely to shift party allegiance over this, and that those they do poorly with (single urban women) already vote the other way anyway. That particular bit of political fallout seems unlikely.

One thing to bear in mind is that when abortion is basically legal on demand (a point conservatives make about Roe that isn't entirely correct but is mostly correct), or is perceived to be, there's a lot of space carved out for people to be "pro-life" without having to make difficult distinctions.

My suspicion is that the number of women who are pro-life in the sense that they would support flat bans on abortion if Roe were overturned is probably a relatively small minority. There are, however, a lot of women, especially married religious lower and middle class mothers in the midwest, south, and mountain west, who believe that there are way too many abortions.

I think that pro-lifers count a little too much on this particular talking point (which is usually deployed against charges that the movement is anti-feminist). Move the laws in a more pro-life direction and I would suspect that female support for the pro-life cause would drop off a lot more than male support.

Dilan,

I think it will drop off a good bit for absolute bans, but I'm not so sure about intermediate points. I think pro-lifers may make too much of this polling -- different contexts, as you say -- but I think that it's silly to feel certain, or even "it's very very likely" that a polity with real state and local battles over abortion law would spell doom for the GOP with women. Or that it wouldn't discomfort the Democrats quite a bit, as Roe's demise makes the abortion policies of ambitious Democratic pols less irrelevant on the local front in places full of those midwestern, southern, and mountain west women voters. Navigating the national Democratic party's constraints on presidential-level abortion views and the fact that it might once again be an issue in state politics won't be fun for those folks.

Dilan Esper writes: "There are, however, a lot of women, especially married religious lower and middle class mothers in the midwest, south, and mountain west, who believe that there are way too many abortions.

I think that pro-lifers count a little too much on this particular talking point (which is usually deployed against charges that the movement is anti-feminist). Move the laws in a more pro-life direction and I would suspect that female support for the pro-life cause would drop off a lot more than male support."

Of course. When it's those hussies in the Big City having abortions so they don't have to interrupt their goldang jetsetting and nightclubbing, the chicks in the sticks can get all righteous and will say so to pollsters.

When it's Cindy Lou who just made a boo-boo with that no-good Hunter boy, you're dang right she should be able to "take care of it." Just this once, sugar. That girl has her head on straight and everyone's entitled to that one mistake.

I think it will drop off a good bit for absolute bans, but I'm not so sure about intermediate points. I think pro-lifers may make too much of this polling -- different contexts, as you say -- but I think that it's silly to feel certain, or even "it's very very likely" that a polity with real state and local battles over abortion law would spell doom for the GOP with women. Or that it wouldn't discomfort the Democrats quite a bit, as Roe's demise makes the abortion policies of ambitious Democratic pols less irrelevant on the local front in places full of those midwestern, southern, and mountain west women voters. Navigating the national Democratic party's constraints on presidential-level abortion views and the fact that it might once again be an issue in state politics won't be fun for those folks.

I understand what you are saying, and I will confess that I don't have data to back up my speculation, but I don't see how the demise of Roe is going to harm the Democrats, except perhaps in a few states where Democrats have little influence already.

The reason is the pro-life movement is already fully activated and has been for a long time. People who really care about overturning Roe vote for pro-life candidates, and often do so as the single issue.

Whereas, many committed pro-choicers, such as libertarians and "socially liberal fiscally conservative" voters, cross over.

My bet is that beyond the activists, a lot of the support for the pro-life position in the polls comes from people who are disgusted at the number of abortions, and a feeling that people are irresponsibly getting pregnant and getting abortions without taking minimal precautions or attempting to live a more moral (in this view) life. There is a lot about that worldview that I disagree with, of course, but it is different from the pro-life activist who thinks that every life is sacred and/or that society shouldn't have moved away from traditional gender roles or constraints on sexuality.

As a result, in my view, the political playing field, post-Roe, is going to be as follows:

1. Some very pro-life portions of the country (Utah, South Dakota) are going to remain very pro-life, with a slight benefit to already powerful Republican parties there.

2. The most pro-choice portions of the country (the coasts) will become even more pro-choice and solidly Democratic, as committed pro-choice voters believe they can't afford to cross over anymore.

3. Much of middle America will tilt more towards the Democrats, as pro-choicers get activated and many in the mushy middle or who identified themselves to pollsters as pro-life confront the reality of actual restrictions on the right to abortion. I expect this to go on even in the South to some extent; there are a lot of unplanned pregnancies down there and don't underestimate the number of people who may identify as pro-life but who have availed themselves or know someone who has availed herself of the right to have an abortion at some point.

Bottom line, I don't see how it would help Republicans politically. And I will assure you that the movement conservatives I know are quite aware of this issue and fearful about it; part of the attraction of the pro-life cause to the Republican Party has been that it has been something of a free vote (with the only restrictions of consequence being reasonably popular ones like parental notification).

First... MoeLarryAndJesus performs a valuable function on this blog, by (a) distilling the "my right to orgasms, uber alles" viewpoint into highly entertaining, uncomfortable barbs that give no quarter to any opposing view, and (b) therefore, preventing the Douthati supporters from becoming a mutual back-pat club, like Tim Blair's or FreeRepublic.

I do dispute his repeated characterisation of the deaths of Iraqis as "pointless". He seems to imagine that, if the Ba'athists and al-Qaeda-ists and Iranian stooges had done as the Eastern European Communists and South African white right did - ie, had recognised "Game's over, folks. We've lost our hegemony; constitutional democracy is here to stay. Let's lay down our weapons and stop killing our fellow countrypeople" - then Dubya and Cheney would have been disappointed, as this would deprive them of a rationale for killing Arabs. If the Abu Ghraib perps had not been prosecuted and convicted, but instead had an Insititute for Recreational Torture Rights named in their honour, then the parallel with abortion might make more sense.

That Moe considers the goal of bringing democracy to Middle Eastern dictatorships "pointless," in comparison to Amy Richards' goal of not buying ketchup at Costco, is one reason why I do not take his pro-abortion pacifism terribly seriously. Doubtless Moe's own plan for freeing Iraqis from Saddam would have found a way to persuade the insurgents not to assassinate UN envoys or disrupt multi-party elections. I look forward to hearing the details.

On the main point: I offer this quote from New Age guru M Scott Peck, a liberal Christian.

'My rule of thumb whenever I am faced with a proposed social solution is to bear in mind the question "What is missing?" And if you ask what is missing in a law that proclaims "Thou shalt not abort," the answer you get is responsibility… The law-makers take the responsibility away from the mother... by simply declaring "You must bear that child." But where do they place that responsibility? The answer is nowhere. They certainly do not want the responsibility themselves for the child once it is born. Therefore, a law that proclaims "Thou shalt not abort" is a law without compassion and integrity.

'I actually look forward to the day when we might be able to say "Thou shalt not abort" with compassion and integrity. But the only way we can do that is within community, where it becomes a community decision whether there should or shouldn’t be an abortion. If... the community decides that there shouldn't be an abortion, then the community assumes some responsibility for the financial and psychological welfare not only of that child but also of its parents. Of course, we don’t even begin to have enough community in this country either to fit the bill or to foot the bill. Until such time as we do, a simplistic policy against abortion would... achieve nothing except to return us to where we were forty years ago when the poor had coat hangers and the rich their trips to Sweden.'

- from "Further Along the Road Less Travelled" (1993), p 182.

This sounds to me much like Ross's reasoning, and also that of the Constitutional Courts of West Germany and Spain (two countries where judges know more first-hand about "oppression" than NY Times op-ed writers) when they struck down or revised legislative attempts to legalise abortion on demand.

This sounds to me much like Ross's reasoning, and also that of the Constitutional Courts of West Germany and Spain (two countries where judges know more first-hand about "oppression" than NY Times op-ed writers) when they struck down or revised legislative attempts to legalise abortion on demand.

I can't say I am familiar with all of the European abortion policies and legal decisions, but I have to say, it would seem to me that assumptions that since restrictions on abortion may work somewhat well in the context of the European social safety net, such restrictions would work here in America seem to gloss over fundamental distinctions between our culture and theirs.

There are deep and complex reasons why we don't have that sort of a safety net here (let alone the fact that unlike Ross, most of the folks who oppose abortion have no interest in building one or allying with political forces who would build one).

At best, what you and Ross and Tom O'Gorman are saying is that in a different political culture that tolerates a higher level of social spending, it may be possible to mitigate at least some of the effects of restrictions on abortion, making such restrictions somewhat more palatable. That proves nothing about what is possible or likely in the US, however.

As that rare animal, a pro-life liberal, I loved this column. Here are my additional thoughts:

One desperately needed measure for a pro-life society is a commitment to subsidized contraception for low-income women (something Bush has rolled back, and something the Catholic hierarchy actively opposes). Natural family planning does NOT enable a woman to reliably limit her childbearing to what a single mom can support- and many low income women have little chance to marry a man who will contribute economicially to the family. Very few people can (or should) use abstinence as a life-long strategy. Contraception is not cheap, and if it's a choice between buying birth control or paying the rent...

Another way to spend money to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe- without ending up with 70s style welfare dependency- is to spend money on child care subsidies- which were already inadequate under Clinton and Bush has greatly reduced. If a low income single mom who can barely afford child care for one child gets pregnant again, and knows she simply cannot pay for child care for two, she has little option other than abortion.

Finally, it would help to STOP THE WAR ON DRUGS. If minority communities face a situation where a large percentage of the marriage-aged men are in jail, what on earth do we expect their pregnant girlfriends to do?

Rod Blaine replies: "I do dispute his repeated characterisation of the deaths of Iraqis as "pointless". He seems to imagine that, if the Ba'athists and al-Qaeda-ists and Iranian stooges had done as the Eastern European Communists and South African white right did - ie, had recognised "Game's over, folks. We've lost our hegemony; constitutional democracy is here to stay. Let's lay down our weapons and stop killing our fellow countrypeople" - then Dubya and Cheney would have been disappointed, as this would deprive them of a rationale for killing Arabs. If the Abu Ghraib perps had not been prosecuted and convicted, but instead had an Insititute for Recreational Torture Rights named in their honour, then the parallel with abortion might make more sense.

That Moe considers the goal of bringing democracy to Middle Eastern dictatorships "pointless," in comparison to Amy Richards' goal of not buying ketchup at Costco, is one reason why I do not take his pro-abortion pacifism terribly seriously. Doubtless Moe's own plan for freeing Iraqis from Saddam would have found a way to persuade the insurgents not to assassinate UN envoys or disrupt multi-party elections. I look forward to hearing the details. "

Where to start? I'm not a pacifist, of course. I'm just not in favor of aggressive wars raged under false pretenses. I can't even imagine being stupid enough to think that the Iraq war was begun in order to "free Iraqis from Saddam" or to "bring democracy to Middle Eastern dictatorhips." Come on, Rod, you can't possibly have your head far enough up Dick Cheney's pasty ass to believe such nonsense.

And if you actually think that what Iraq has now is worthy of being called a "constitutional democracy," then I'm just awed - you're officially dumber than Peter Leavitt, and he's the 1927 Yankees of Stupid. Iraq is an occupied country and their "leaders" can't fart without American permission. No sovereignty, no "constitutional democracy."

Ross: Your post is intriguing, but it is wrong on two counts. One, I think if Roe is overturned, there is very, very little chance that a national ban could take place. There will always be 40+1 Senators to fillibuster that legislation, it would violate any shred of conception of "states rights", and I am not sure there are even enough votes for 50%+1 support in either House of Congress.

Secondly, if Roe is overturned, what would result is soemthing very predictible: A number of Blue states will keep abortion legal, and women who want to terminate their pregnancies will have to travel to those states to receive abortions. So you will have many states on the East and West coast allowing abortion, with Illinois in the middle. It will become like what we saw in the EU over the last few decades, especially in Ireland, where women will travel to countries to terminate their pregnancies, even if their home area forbids it.

Of course, some women will carry a pregnancy to full birth rather than travel to another state for an abortion. And we will get more out-of-wedlock birth as a result. And no, conservatives will not support expanded welfare support-they have shown contempt for that even when it was much cheaper than it would be in your imaginary pro-life regime. And if you think father's will stick it out more or people will wait until their mid-20s to start families in this post-Roe America, you are foolish on both culture and biology.

Ross, just as a clarification, which of the following concepts most closely encapsulates what you believe:

1. Roe should be overturned. The states should then be left to decide their policies on abortion without any additional interference from the federal government (nothing beyond laws like the current so-called partial birth ban).

2. Roe should be overturned. The federal government should then push the states to ban abortion the same way they pushed for states to make the drinking age 21 (it gets tied to $$$).

3. Roe should be overturned. The federal government should make abortion illegal on a federal level and enforce the law in every state, no matter what the states want (similar to the current situation with medicinal marijuana).

4. A constitutional amendment banning abortion is passed.

Please note: I am asking what you want, not what you think is possible. I think that 4 will never happen, and 2 and 3 are not likely, but I'm asking what you believe would be the best policy, regardless of the possibility of its actually becoming policy.

Or another option, if I haven't described what you would like.

By the way, Ross and his commenters shouldn't fall for the idea that abortion bans were common in "Communist hellholes." Romania was an exception; from the 1950s onward most other Eastern bloc nations had very liberal abortion laws. In some nations, such as East Germany and the U.S.S.R. itself, the abortion rate was quite high. When Germany reunified, the restrictive abortion law in the West was a major bone of contention in the reunification negotiations, and unfortunately, the Christian Democrats caved on the issue.

Today abortion is legal in all remaining overtly Communist states, including North Korea, the quintessential "hellhole." (Some Communist-leaning but not overtly Communist states, like Hector's favorite Venezuela, do have abortion bans.)

Over the long run, my assumption is that a ban on abortion, by changing the incentives of sexual behavior and family formation, would actually end up reducing out-of-wedlock births, welfare spending, and all the rest of it, and that a short-term investment in a pro-life welfare state

The weakest aspect of the pro-life position is not in its diagnosis of the problem, but in its offering of a viable solution. This excerpt does a fairly good job of illustrating this.

1. It assumes a ban on abortion will change sexual behavior. Some of that might occur, but sexual behavior is governed at least as much by irrational components as rational components. People will still exhibit reckless sexual behavior and still try to sidestep the "consequences" because we're wired that way. Which means abortions will still happen in large (though lower) numbers.

2. It assumes poverty is caused by the lack of a family. This is not the case. Poverty is caused by lack of access/opportunity or by individual deficiencies (alcohol/drug addiction, mental defect through either biology or outside abuse). Lack of family units is an additional symptom of poverty's causes, not a cause, itself. Banning abortion will create more people who are likely to fall into eventual poverty--not less.

3. Politics being politics, there is no such thing as a temporary, short-term investment in the welfare state. The only candidate this cycle who proposed a reduction in the welfare state, Ron Paul, is considered a quack, in part, because of it. Another government reducer in the house, Jeff Flake, is a pariah among his colleagues.

4. Like many of the ideas that social conservatives propose, social conservatives believe abortion bans will lead to a more just society. While I can see the logic behind such a statement, I tend to think a whopping increase in otherwise non-dangerous young women serving life sentences isn't any better than the status quo. Make no mistake, under an abortion ban, that's what will happen.

Mr. LaFollette,

Re: To require women to be "sacred vessels" for the unborn, against their wishes, is inherently patriarchal. It is thoroughly incompatible with genuine freedom and political equality for women, which is why the right to an abortion became such a fiercely contested issue in the first place.

You're asserting that banning abortion _by definition_ is a patriarchal act. I don't know how I would go about disproving that, since you've kind of begged the question. I might start by pointing out that South American countries where abortion is illegal under almost all circumstances generally have better educated women, a higher status for women, and more sexual freedom than Asian countries where abortion is legal. Ireland, where abortion is illegal, has had two women prime ministers....when are we going to see our first Woman President?

I would define a law as being oppressive to women if it prevents them from taking part in a way of life that I would define to be 'good'. Education is a good, therefore denying education to women would be sexist. To be able to fulfil one's nature through one's labor and livelihood is a good, therefore denying qualified women access to (most) jobs would also be sexist. On the contrary, I don't think that the freedom to destroy unborn life is a good thing- for society, for the woman or for her child- and so I don't think that I am denying women anything worth having, when I say that it should be illegal.

You seem to be assuming that freedom- 'over one's body' or whatever- is an unqualified good, so to deny women that kind of freedom is a bad thing. Not so. I don't think _any_ of us have unqualified freedom in that sense. I don't think men should be free to use pornography, if it comes to that, which is pretty much something that only men ever do- does that make me anti-men? Nor do I think one should be free to use drugs, or patronize prostitutes, or to do all sorts of other things that men are more likely to do.

I think the point that makes "4 Months.." relevant to the abortion debate in this country is that if you make a side by side comparison of countries where abortion is legal to countries where it isn't, one begins to notice a pattern: places one could consider raising a family to fucking hellhole where being aborted is probably the best possible option for the "unborn."

Furthermore, for me at least, despite the first comment, the leftoevers from the abortion in "4 Months" as well as the footage in "Lake of Fire" only further gird my belief that a fetus is no way a "baby", nor should we pretend otherwise. I commend "4 months.." for not shying away from the physical reality of abortion in ways I'm sure even a "pro-choice" American film wouldn't dare show. But for me at least, it inspired no sympathy or emotion as to the killing of a "baby." It reminded me more of removing a tumor or some other kind of growth. Try giving a rattle to fetus or putting it in a crib, and then try and tell me that it's no different than a child.

Furthermore, by making abortion illegal or at the very least near impossible to aquire, one is only ensuring that these kind of second and third trimester operations take place, as the party in question only becomes more and more desperate and open to exploitation and physical harm. In my ideal society any woman or any age, at any stage of pregnancy would be able to walk into any hospital, anywhere in this country and chose either option totally unecumbered by asinine "counseling" or hand-wringing from either side. She would either get top-notch, free pre-natal care, or could terminate her pregnacy right there on demand, no questions asked, her privacy and life completely protected. That is what a "pro-life" society would look like.

Also, "orgasms uber alles" is one of the better phrases I've heard recently, even though I'm not sure it was meant to be complimentary towards my point of view, it certainly summed up my basic view that the "life" of a fetus is in every way subordinate to a good, stiff orgasm.

your analysis starts with the presumption that the anti-abortion movement is primarily motivated by a concern for all human life, born and otherwise. oh, that it were so. my secretary is a staunch baptist (the widow of one preacher, the mother and mother in law of two more). her attitude toward abortion is fairly typical. she cannot comprehend a lifestyle that results in pregnancy, nor can she fathom any rationale for unnaturally ending one.

not long ago, i suggested to her that the abortion debate could perhaps be solved by science. an unwanted fetus could be removed from the mother and given to a fertility clinic to be stored until claimed by some willing recipient. instead of harassing abortion clinic patients, the antis could prove their devotion to life by trotting their little sadie sue down to the clinic as soon as she was of age. my proposal horrified my secretary. the prospect that some fornicator might escape the consequences of liberated life deeply offended her.

with a fair portion of the antis, its not about life, its about punishment. why do you think they proudly claim to be 'conservative'? they're opposed to just about every program that would lessen the burden of poor children, calvinism in it purest form.

i have no illusions about what motivates most of the 'pro life' movement, so spare me your sanctimony, please.

A compromise that follows months or terms is, I think, a workable solution (though, I admit, not one I like).

But a compromise that does not follow months--such as the exception for rape and incest--poses problems. One of the biggest problems concerns the wording or implementation of legislation to legalize abortions solely in the case of rape or incest. Just sit back and think about how this would actually work.

In terms of rape, would a woman simply have to say, gee, I was raped, and voila, she would be allowed to have an abortion? Or sign an affidavit of some sort saying that she had been raped? If so, don't expect the number of abortions to decline.

But what if a woman is required to prove that she had been raped, as might be the case? What kind of proof will be required? Physical, or legal? Who will she have to prove her rape to? Will she have to name the man?

What happens if she hadn't reported the rape soon after it happened (soon enough for a rape kit), and therefore there was little or no physical evidence by the time she discovered that she was pregnant and went to the police/hospital? What if she is required to file a police report? And go to court? Would her abortion be denied if the physical evidence was not conclusive? If she lost the court case?

And doesn't all of this place an incredible burden on women? Women who--lets not forget, please--are the true victims here? Are we really going to make victims go through additional hurdles?

And are we really willing to accept a system that places blame on a woman for not reporting her rape soon enough?

This approach could lead to the lovely conclusions of, well, she should have reported the rape immediately! And taken a pregnancy test immediately! Which to me sounds an awfully lot like, it was her fault. And I think we, as a society, should be past that.

Mr. Kabala,

It's somewhat different- and I would say, less shameful- when a non-Christian country like Vietnam or for that matter, India, has legal abortion. While abortion is certainly (very much so) against natural law, this was one of the aspects of natural law that was generally not acknowledged either in the pre-Christian era or in the non-Christian world, and it isn't widely understood by Buddhists or Hindus even today.

The Marxist-Leninist countries were generally atheistic or at best strongly secular, and this was why they had legal abortion (I would think that their atheism was also the source of most of what was wrong with them). Nicaragua in the 1980s, Peru in the '60s and Venezuela and Bolivia today, explicitly set themselves in contradistinction to Cuba and Eastern European countries by not professing atheism, and the fact that none of them legalized abortion is probably related to that. (Oddly enough, Fidel Castro in the last few years started making some critical comments about abortion, and this is one among a few indications that he might be thinking about an Oscar Wilde style deathbed conversion).

If abortion is made illegal, it is not all of a sudden going to stop abortion. I sometimes get the impression that the pro-life crowd thinks that banning abortion will actually get rid of it. Just like prohibtion got rid of drinking. Will their be a spike in births? Sure. But there are still going to be thousands - if not tens of thousands - of abortions performed every year. And these abortions are going to be much more dangerous. I'm not saying I "endorse" abortion, but even if you think abortion is evil, legal or illegal, legal abortion is the lesser of those two evils.

The attention being paid to Romanian abortion policy is misleading. Romania was unusual among Soviet Bloc European countries in being anti-abortion. The Soviet Union encouraged abortion, and the women averaged about six abortions each in the Soviet Union.

I would define a law as being oppressive to women if it prevents them from taking part in a way of life that I would define to be 'good'.

If

"oppression" is the state's interference in an individual's ability to partake in something it has defined as "good,"

it follows that

"liberty" is the state's allowance for an individual to partake in any activity arbitrarily defined as "good."

That's not only the narrowest definition of "liberty" that I've ever seen, but it also goes against the ideas of every conservative thinker I can recall at the moment (though I haven't read much Kirk).

To Hector, who has the post above me. What was wrong with the marxist-leninist countries was not thier atheism, but their marxism-leninism.

Secondly, atheism does not mean you support abortion. I support keeping it legal, but that does not mean I support it morally.

Thirdly, those south american countries and the periods you mention, were democracies when their leftist/socialist governments came to power. They were not dictatorships, which meant that they to listen to some extent to their (highly religious) populace.

Fourthly, those same countries have plenty of abortions, they're just not safe ones.

And finally, the deathbead conversion of Oscar Wilde doesn't mean much. Wilde was an aesthete through and through. Wilde like catholicism on that level, not a spiritual one. But he had no wish to live as a catholic, which is why he only converted on his deathbed.

Steve: Thanks, but I already pointed that out.

Oh my, you must all be very young. Anyone who had past puberty before Roe will remember all about the availability of illegal abortions. Some were up to medical standards, and some were nauseating back alley jobs, but they weren't rare. Today chemical abortions have replaced medical abortions in large part of Latin America, and we all know how able the government is to keep drugs out of the hand of people who want them. To even begin to think about a post-Roe future without mentioning illegal abortions is like imagining that Prohibition would solve society's problems with alcohol or that the War on Drugs will ever succeed. Reality based sex education and contraception can cut the abortion rate, but overturning Roe,,,I don't think so.

Ross, I hope you enjoy belonging to the fairy tale conservative movement. You could not be more wrong about what will happen given the actual conservative movement.

LaFollette Progressive is right on target about what will happen as long as we are not getting into the impossibility of enforcement of a ban and the political effect of numerous women dying after having unsafe, illegal abortions, i.e. the coat hanger effect.

Steve Sailer wrote: "The Soviet Union encouraged abortion, and the women averaged about six abortions each in the Soviet Union."

Though it should be mentioned that Stalin outlawed abortion in 1936. Of course the rate of abortion still remained high, as it will in the US even if the lifers get their way and Roe is tossed out.

Ross' original post ignores two main things. First, 1/3 of abortions are from women who are or were married and 2/3 already have children. The question of who has abortion is more complex than assuming a ban would just spike out of wedlock births.

The second and more significant logical fallacy is that everything Ross suggests could be enacted right now without banning abortion. If we provided a very strong social support net abortion would decrease. Which abortions would stop without a legal ban that would stop with just the increased social support. Women who do not want to risk their lives/health giving birth to a child with serious/terminal medical issues would still seek abortion. Women who have the money, but not the energy/time to support additional children would still seed abortion (unless you are also advocating free day car and nannies)

The wealthy and much of the middle class would still have ways to get abortions. Thus the spike would mostly be in poor women who already have too many children to handle. Why is this a good policy?

The fact is that very, very little of anti-abortion sentiment or legislation is motivated by concern for the fetus. Nearly all of it is motivated by the desire to show those uppity women who is boss. This is shown by the fact that so much of the discussion about abortion includes allowances for abortion in the case of rape. If abortion were really murder, really the slaughter of another human being as its opponents claim, then murdering a person who resulted from rape would be no better or worse than murdering a person who resulted from a broken condom.

No, anti-abortion wackos are pretty definitively primarily about putting women back into second-class status and punishing those women who dare to have sex before entering into the proper patriarchal institution. This is transparently obvious to anyone with functioning brain cells. Fetal life is just a cudgel with which to beat them back into submission. Dreams of abortion prohibition that contain expanded welfare, subsidies for contraception, subsidies for child care, etc are laughable fantasies. Enacting those policies wouldn't properly punish women, which is what anti-abortion activists really want.

While I can see the logic behind such a statement, I tend to think a whopping increase in otherwise non-dangerous young women serving life sentences isn't any better than the status quo. Make no mistake, under an abortion ban, that's what will happen.

I don't think Ross, or much of anyone with any real chance of impacting things, is advocating "life sentences" for women -- or even, most likely, for abortionists. Unless maybe the "life sentence" is having a kid, which sounds like one pro-choice view of motherhood (it's like a really harsh jail term).

The fact is that very, very little of anti-abortion sentiment or legislation is motivated by concern for the fetus. Nearly all of it is motivated by the desire to show those uppity women who is boss.

Hey, Andrew, so's your momma. I guess we can make this another abortion "debate" that consists of pro-choice people saying pro-life people hate women (even if they are women), and pro-life folks saying pro-choice people just think that killing babies is a fun and pleasant way to make sure orgasms are as cost-free as possible. And you know, what since you get personal about motivations? If you can't imagine other reasons why the public (and moderately pro-life folks) are less happy with banning abortions in case of rape, you're not just stupid, you're barely human in your emotional capabilities.

So Marquis, murdered anyone whose mother was raped recently? Gonna argue that if my mother was raped, then I'm not really human, that I don't have the right to live? Face it, if a fetus conceived of a broken condom is totally, 100% an individual human being and killing them is murder, then so is a fetus conceived of rape. But of course, anyone advocating for abortion bans can imagine poor little Susie getting raped. Then everyone will unjustly think she's a dirty, dirty slut! Horror! Abortion opponents wouldn't want that happening, they only want the real sluts burdened with shame.

The same percentage of Americans had premarital sex in the 1950s as now. 90+%. Outlawing abortion won't change sexual behavior. If premarital births are up, what has changed, I presume, is the number of shotgun weddings.

You could aim to have more shotgun weddings without outlawing abortion if it is out of wedlock births you want to reduce. Reducing premarital (or extra marital) sex is not likely.

Shinyk,

In case you are new to this blog, I'm _not_ a conservative. Anything but.

Josh,

I believe that most everything that was wrong with the Marxist countries was a direct or indirect result of their atheism- from the central planning to the ideological purges. This was their tragic flaw, as Péguy predicted a century ago. A Christianized socialism would have been more gentle and humane and would not have fallen of its own contradictions.

Nicaragua wasn't a 'democracy' (whatever that means in the context of a country like Nicaragua) in 1979, and Peru was only formally a democracy (essentially an oligarchy) in 1968. Velasco and, possibly, Ortega could easily have legalized abortion by decree if they had wanted to. Oscar Wilde's conversion, by the way, was officially accepted as legitimate by the church.

Dearleader,

I suppose, then, Ireland is a worse place to live than Japan. And Brazil is a worse place to be a woman than India. Are you serious??!

What about protection from God? God kills 25% of human babies in the first few months of pregnancy. Are you also going to advocate that we expand our laws to protect against this murdering abortionist?

How dare he take human life! Doesn't he know it's sacred?

In any event, President Hillary Clinton will sign the Freedom of Choice Act into law, and the fight will be over, (at least until there's a right-to-life supermajority in the Senate, which means, probably never).

In case you are new to this blog, I'm _not_ a conservative. Anything but.

My first thought was that those constricting definitions of "liberty" and "oppression" sounded vaguely Soviet in their narrowness, but didn't want to insult through that implication.

Since that connection is unlikely to insult someone who resents the assumption that he is conservative, I'll make it now.

Hector,

Just because you believe that what was wrong with Marxist-Leninist countries was atheism, does not necessarily make it so. Belief in marxism-communism etc. has long been likened to religious belief in its dogmatism and its intolerance and supression of criticism. This is not a new observation. If I remember correctly, it dates to the 20's.

And as for christian socialism, do you really think christians socialists would necessarily be more gentle? Christians (not to mention members of other religous faiths) were killing scores upon scores of people for wrong thinking long before Marx. And you can always remember that Stalin was at one time a seminary student.

And ok, maybe those south american countries were democracies in name only, but leaders like Ortega still needed popular support, so they are not going to do something like legalize abortion, especially if their position may be tenuous.

And as for Oscar Wilde's deathbed conversion, just because the Vatican accepts something as legitimate does not make it so either. The Vatican accepted the "miracle" that made Mother Theresa a saint. But as Christopher Hitchens has shown, that "miracle" was pretty dubious.

Realistically a national ban on abortion is probably unlikely. A Constitutional Amendment would require, I believe, 33 state legislatures to agree. This is not likely to occur.

Most plausibly overturning Roe would result in some states having strict restrictions, others having a few more restrictions than now without going totally strict, and the rest remaining almost exactly the same. Women who are determined on having abortions will have to drive further.

If a ban on abortion were to happen the abortion rate-per-pregnancy would most likely go down, but no it wouldn't stop altogether. (The ban on contract-killing has certainly not stopped that either, but I do think the "War on Hitmen" has done more good than harm. I'm not a legalization type on the issue) Still in 1983, before current restrictions, Poland officially had 200,000 to 300,000 abortions a year. Although some estimates placed it much higher.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802EFDC1E38F930A15756C0A965948260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=all

Abortion is now highly restricted in Poland. In 2006 the Pro-Choice "Women on waves" high-end estimate was for 200,000 illegal, plus the 150 legal, abortions for year in Poland.

http://www.womenonwaves.org/article-358-en.html

The population is larger now, but the fertility rate lower. The math is therefore tricky and could mean the rate-per-pregnancy either increased a bit or decreased. Still decreased is the most likely way to calculate it.

In the short-term the result of the decrease would probably mean an increased use of birth control of various sorts and plausibly an increase in other ways of non-procreative sex. Judging by Poland and other cases we would not experience an increase in overall fertility. Although plausibly birth rates among uneducated people would increase. Some pro-lifers would support an expanded welfare-state to do that and with the Republican party weakened, as they would be as many pro-lifers would vote Democrat if it weren't for this issue, it likely would happen.

Every human life IS protected, Ross--let's please stop politicizing fetus-Americans. All children ARE legitimate -- to judge them on whether their biological fathers and mothers are married is backward, and solves nothing.

I applaud your realism -- that children need care, irrespective of their parents' abilities to provide it. And principle alone will not sustain the emotional arguments against RU-486, rape/incest exceptions, etc.

But enough with the empty slogans, Ross, please: I have, as of this date, two children and zero abortions. I oppose the war in Iraq and capital punishment. I support charities that mitigate the suffering of children and adults. I am as consistently PRO-LIFE as they come. I just happen to think ones views about abortion are the province of individual conscience, and not of government fiat. I am pro-life. I am not anti-choice. Nobody who holds the very principles upon which this Republic was founded can be anti-choice. At least not without compromising the core values elucidated in our framing documents.

Thomas R.,

The article says that Women on Waves estimated 80,000-200,000 abortions in Poland today- I would think that the low estimate is more accurate. I don't particularly trust an organization like Women on Waves not to inflate the statistics to their own benefit. That would indeed indicate a large decline in the abortion rate.

Interestingly, according to the UN statistics, most Polish women rely on natural family planning and not on contraception, one of the few countries where natural family planning is widely practiced.

I agree with you about the likely consequences of a ban on abortion. Indeed, there are many countries where abortion is mostly illegal, which have achieved fertility levels of replacement or below- Poland, Portugal, Ireland, Chile, Costa Rica, Argentina and Brazil among others.

Interesting Discussion

A modest proposal.

I was talking about this issue with a firemly pro-choice friend recently who did admit that there was one situation under which she would be happy to accept strict abortion limitations. That would be if every male in the US made a sperm deposit and got a vasectomy right after puberty. That way there would never be any unwanted children and the only abortions would be in cases where there was an obvious and unavoidable serious threat to the mothers health (ectopic pregnancy,etc) or perhaps massive birth defects (is there really a point to carrying to term an ancephalic fetus with no brain that will die shortly after birth and was arguably never alive in brain activity terms).

This would largely eliminate the threat of pregnancy from rape or incest, so those excuses would not longer be necessary, unless foreign travelo was involved.

At the very least, it would cut the abortion rate by the success rate of vasectomy as birth control. Wouldn't 99% fewer abortions be a good thing?

I realize that this might cause VD rates to increase, since fear of pregnancy would not scare people out of having sex. It would also be very expensive, but how much do we currently spend on unwanted pregnancies, both those carried to term and aborted. Also, we could avoid much of the spending on other forms of birth control (except condoms), including the indirect health effects of birth control pills.

My apologies if this idea is already a dead horse. I just found this blog. A pointer to the discussion would be appreciated.

Andrew,

I actually agree -- abortion is murder in the case of rape or incest. But that people feel such sympathy for victims in these cases that they're willing to either simply be morally inconsistent or come up with a (possibly bogus) argument that it's somehow not murder in these cases is hardly surprising. The point is that, rather than proof that most pro-life voters (not the pro-life movement itself, which is often fairly consistent here, though most of us recognize that politically part of this is Not Gonna Happen) are "out to put women in their place" that they are human -- they sometimes make faulty moral and legal judgments because emotions are powerful and they feel bad for women who are raped. Is that really so awful and terrible and misogynist, feeling really really really bad for women who get raped? As reasons to make unreasonable distinctions go, it's not one I'd particularly consider horrid and wrong.

Er, Trevayne -- not to rain on this (absurd) parade, but wouldn't it also either be voluntary (in which case it wouldn't actually happen) or involuntary, in which case it would be totalitarian in that "yes, I suppose it is time to start blowing up Congress" way?

MoC Involuntary of course. Consider it a mandatory medical procedure to virtually eliminate the scourge of abortion. We require vacccinations against many diseases. Why not require one that would get rid of unwanted pregnancies?

As for its totalitarian nature, it seems a much smaller imposition then requiring a woman to carry an unwnted pregnancy to term, perhaps as the result of rape or incest. Or is that an acceptable totalitarianism?

Note, I do not really think this idea could be adopted, but I do think it sheds some clarity on which issues are really important in this discussion.

Is that really so awful and terrible and misogynist, feeling really really really bad for women who get raped?

Marquis, it isn't. It is, however, misogynist that many pro-lifers who have such feelings nonetheless belittle many other compelling reasons people have for having abortions.

There are many ways that a woman can be in desperate circumstances and feel that she has no other option but to abort other than rape. The only difference is that those other desparate women consented to have TEH SEX and therefore pro-lifers refuse to sympathize (or at least refuse to sympathize in the same manner that they will sympathize with a rape victim). THAT'S misogynistic.

Trevayne,

No one is ever going to consent to that. What happens if the power goes out to the freezer at the sperm bank, and all the men lose their chances to have children, forever? (I relaize that vasectomies are somewhat reversible, but not always.)

Dilan,

It's not misogynistic. It might be, at worst, _anti-sex_ (which it actually isn't) or anti-premarital sex (which it also isn't). You could argue that it would be wrong to be against either of those things, and you might be right, but it isn't the same as being anti-women. If I recall correctly a number of the early Christian heresies were anti-sex and pro-women.

Anyway, it's completely different. It's the difference between if I get hit by a trailer while driving on the highway, versus a family in Iraq that has a bomb drop on them by mistake. Both of them are tragedies, but mine is less so- I did make the choice to drive on the highway, which has some rare but ever present risks, one of which is getting hit by trailers. So yes, of course I would sympathize, but not quite in the same way that I would with a rape victim.

Hector - I doubt that is really an issue. In a vasectomy, the connection from the testes is severed. AFAIK the testes continue sperm production. The issue about reversability is whether a man could again have children via intercourse. I do not see why he could not continue to cave children via IVF using sperm collected directly from the testes.

If there are any medical commenters with more information, I would be happy to be corrected.

Even so, just back up the samples by storing them at several sites, across the country as well let the individual store some himself if he so desires. The point is to eliminate pregnancies that are not both wanted and planned for (I suppose a vasectomized rapist could carry some of his own around with a turkey baster, but I haven't heard of that many rapes outside of warzones with the intention of causing a pregnancy).

Anyway, it's completely different. It's the difference between if I get hit by a trailer while driving on the highway, versus a family in Iraq that has a bomb drop on them by mistake. Both of them are tragedies, but mine is less so- I did make the choice to drive on the highway, which has some rare but ever present risks, one of which is getting hit by trailers. So yes, of course I would sympathize, but not quite in the same way that I would with a rape victim.

Hector, the fact that you don't see the misogyny here expresses perfectly what pro-choicers are talking about when we say that the pro-life movement is not REALLY all about life but is about restoring gender roles.

The misogyny is this: many pro-lifers object to women who decide that they want fulfilling sex lives without taking the risk of pregnancy. These pro-lifers see that as an illegitimate or less virtuous or immoral choice.

So, no matter how desparate the woman's circumstances turn out to be, they can't sympathize the way they can with a rape victim, because the woman "took the risk".

Whereas to many pro-choicers, we would say that the only risk she took is the risk of living. Enjoying a sex life withoug having to fear pregnancy is a part of life. The analogy we would draw is that while going out on the road and driving may be a risk, you can't really say that a person who has to drive to work every morning is assuming the risk of all the bad drivers out on the road who might injure or kill him. Because the choice to avoid such risks-- quitting his job-- is not one that we believe to be viable or one that should be forced on him.

Many pro-lifers, in contrast, DO believe that avoiding the risk by having a more "virtuous" sex life in which she waits until marriage and wishes to procreate is a course of conduct that it is perfectly appropriate to construct incentives to push a woman towards. So they can't see the women who are in desperate circumstances as anything other than women who took a risk that they shouldn't have taken and are now facing the consequences.

THAT is misogyny-- it is a belief that women should face serious consequences for attempting to separate their sex lives from procreation and marriage. And notably it has NOTHING to do with concern for fetal life.

Dilan, you're vastly oversimplifying. The concern for fetal life doesn't vanish in the rape case, even with most of those who are "pro-life except for rape and incest" -- it just gets overwhelmed by other feelings. That those feelings are so strong about rape victims and not for those who are in a bad situation but did indeed have consensual sex is not surprising. Moreover, even if you hate this -- it isn't "misogyny" -- is everyone who believes in not killing -- taking responsibility, even at great cost -- for your own sexual choices -- misogynist? Then I suppose many women are misogynist. It's strange that a certain sexual morality is "misogynist" because it doesn't agree with your "sex is like a really fun handshake" view -- perhaps I shall label that view "racist" just because I dislike it. It's not really fair, but then equating one view you don't like (held by a large number of women, including, for example my wife) with "misogyny" is equally asinine, if slightly more plausible because at least women are somehow involved.

There's also the fact that it's degrees of sympathy -- a lot of pro-life people, myself included, have considerable sympathy for many people who want an abortion. But I have sympathy for many people I don't therefore think should be given a "one free murder" pass. However, most of us have conditions of extreme sympathy where, though it might be abstractly morally wrong, we'd give that person a "one free murder" pass in the "who could blame them, or even stop them?" sense. Mine certainly doesn't come into play even with rape victims (the complete innocence of the child being a potent force against this emotional weight, for me) -- but there's no need for misogyny for the line to be drawn there, only the (natural) higher degree of sympathy for rape victims. Are you really suggesting that it's unreasonable to have MORE feelings like this for rape victims than for women who are pregnant as a result of consensual sex? Particularly as the rape or incest (which also inspires a certain horror as to the child itself -- a horror I suspect rape does for most people as well) victim is considerably less likely to have been able to avail herself of the wide, wide, wide, array of fairly reliable birth control methods available?

is everyone who believes in not killing -- taking responsibility, even at great cost -- for your own sexual choices -- misogynist? Then I suppose many women are misogynist. It's strange that a certain sexual morality is "misogynist" because it doesn't agree with your "sex is like a really fun handshake" view

Let's unpack some things here:

1. The issue is that many pro-lifers SHOW ENOUGH SYMPATHY FOR WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO OVERRIDE THEIR OBJECTION TO KILLING THE FETUS. However, ANY WOMAN WHO HAS CONSENSUAL SEX IS DISQUALIFIED FROM THAT LEVEL OF SYMPATHY. That's the problem, and YES, it is misogynistic. It is misogynistic because it takes what should be a basic right and need of a woman-- to have nonprocreative sex-- and tries to deny it to her by use of a sanction that is not imposed on men.

Here's the distinction. I can think of all sorts of non-misogynistic methods to enforce sexual "morality". I wouldn't agree with them, but I can certainly think of them. For instance, fornication laws that apply to both parties. Big government bonuses to couples who have babies. Etc.

None of those are misogynistic. In contrast, denying our sympathies to women, and only women, because they find themselves in difficult circumstances due to their nonconformance to standards of sexual "morality" is a form of misogyny. Forcing women, and only women, or disproportionately women (paying child support is not the same) to bear the sanction of a trangression against sexual "morality" is a form of misogyny.

2. The fact that some women are pro-life isn't relevant here. First, not all pro-lifers believe in the rape/incest exception, as you noted yourself. Second, being a member of a particular group doesn't insulate yourself against charges that you advocate policies that are bad for the group.

And indeed, one of the problems here is precisely that there ARE many misogynistic women, i.e., women who believe that government power should be used to make other women (and, again, only women) who live different lives than they do conform to their standards.

Having a vagina doesn't automatically make one a feminist.

Are you really suggesting that it's unreasonable to have MORE feelings like this for rape victims than for women who are pregnant as a result of consensual sex?

In some circumstances, yes. I can think of circumstances in which women have abortions that are just as compelling as a rape victim.

And that's the misogyny, right there. Because, you see, many pro-lifers want to draw a bright line and say all the other women did something wrong so they can't get the same sympathy, instead of looking at the individual circumstances. All those desperate women, it's their fault, no matter how bad off they are, so we must punish them.

Overturn Roe and the question of abortion will return to the States -- where it belongs -- and where pro-lifers can continue trying to win over hearts and minds, democratically, one state at a time.

Note: Changing the laws w/o changing the culture probably won't succeed. Laws against abortion will only be effective in states where the culture is -- or has potential to become -- one that respects life at all stages, supports single mothers, and has qualms with a totally 'liberated' view of sexuality that absolves many men of any responsibility for their licentiousness.

Overturn Roe and the question of abortion will return to the States -- where it belongs -- and where pro-lifers can continue trying to win over hearts and minds, democratically, one state at a time.

Note: Changing the laws w/o changing the culture probably won't succeed. Laws against abortion will only be effective in states where the culture is -- or has potential to become -- one that respects life at all stages, supports single mothers, and has qualms with a totally 'liberated' view of sexuality that absolves many men of any responsibility for their licentiousness.

Dilan, the problem is that we're looking at this from very different angles. Most pro-life people (yes, even those awful terrible inconsistent ones who are overly sympathetic to rape victims, and not quite as good at moral logic as I am, let us consign them to the foulest pits of Hell) don't look at bearing a child as a punishment. One reason some of us are pro-life, in addition to the moral arguments, is a feeling -- a feeling (justified many times) that pro-choice folks see childbearing as a horrid punishment, something visited upon unhappy women by a horrid nature and a horrid state. Sure, abortion laws don't directly impose a "sanction" (you know, stopping you from killing) on men -- but that's because _nature_ is "misogynist" in not visiting the horror and nastiness of procreation on men. I'm sorry that's how it is, but I don't see an easy way to change it. The governor of California may have some ideas, but I don't buy them.

Moreover -- most pro-lifers, as we've noted before in these debates, want essentially no legal punishment for women who abort (or at most a slap on the wrist) -- the only punishment is bearing the child. Some pro-lifers, for emotional, visceral reasons, are willing to "look the other way" even more about the killing of an unborn child born of rape or incest, but that doesn't make any of it about punishing women, unless your basic view is the point that having a child is, essentially, a punishment.

I can assure you from my own life that having a brother can sometimes be a punishment, but I don't think that gives me the right to kill him. I'll also note that if I did, and the circumstances were intimately tied up with a rape or incest, courts would be more lenient to me.

Dilan,

Also, hold on. Aren't at least some of the abortions the 'misogynists' would ban performed for married women, who had the child inside marriage? I don't think _that_ is about punishing women who have non-procreative sex (which I'm guessing most of the moderate pro-life voters do, too). Do you?

Most pro-life people (yes, even those awful terrible inconsistent ones who are overly sympathetic to rape victims, and not quite as good at moral logic as I am, let us consign them to the foulest pits of Hell) don't look at bearing a child as a punishment. One reason some of us are pro-life, in addition to the moral arguments, is a feeling -- a feeling (justified many times) that pro-choice folks see childbearing as a horrid punishment, something visited upon unhappy women by a horrid nature and a horrid state.

I agree that this is a fundamental difference between the two camps (although I would state it a bit differently than you do). I have recommended it before, but Kristen Luker's "Abortion and the Politics of Motherhood" is very good at describing the differences in worldviews between the two sides.

But note something important about this-- it isn't the question of fetal life that is the only real divide here. And this is why pro-lifers need to be a bit more honest when pro-choicers point out that part of the issue here is that pro-lifers aren't solely concerned about fetal life, but also about using government policy to push our culture towards an equilibrium that is more consistent with their view of sexual morality.

This is a charge that pro-lifers deny, and they shouldn't.

In other words, it seems to me that it's parsimonious and charitable to assume the "abortion is murder but it's ok in cases of rape or incest" position is not incoherent in order to be misogynist: most of the people in the pro-life movement who are most conservative, sexually, hold no such inconsistent view. Rather, it fairly obviously grows from an emotional force (horror at rape and incest) overcoming a genuine concern about the unborn, in most cases. Arguing, constantly, otherwise is simply a way of changing the debate into a forum for insulting those who disagree with you. You think the arguments for any abortion bans are weak -- why not stick to that, rather than insulting the people you disagree with when there's a more charitable interpretation of their views?

I don't really think you secretly (because it's obviously true) think that a 2nd trimester fetus is a human being, as entitled not to be murdered as you are, but you support that right because if you ever knock up a girlfriend you don't want to be in the unhappy position of having to be responsible for it, but that's roughly as charitable as what you're doing.

This is a charge that pro-lifers deny, and they shouldn't.

Why shouldn't they? "To save the babies" is by a very very very large margin the motivating reason for being pro-life, and the other concerns may move people on "corner cases" to follow their guts down a wrong alley, but I don't think anyone in politics or life is obliged (or even capable) of always providing a full analysis of their motives for moral and policy choices. Any admissions would be used in an unfair way by people who are far less forthright than you are about pro-choice politics as an outcome of a belief in a right to consequence and commitment free sex.

Dilan, can you summarize Luker, at all?

Of course, differences on sexual morality don't cut to the heart of it -- does anyone think Nat Hentoff's traditionalist sexual morality and apple pie vision of motherhood motivates his pro-life stances?

Why shouldn't they? "To save the babies" is by a very very very large margin the motivating reason for being pro-life, and the other concerns may move people on "corner cases" to follow their guts down a wrong alley, but I don't think anyone in politics or life is obliged (or even capable) of always providing a full analysis of their motives for moral and policy choices.

Because I think pro-lifers DO have very different values about sex and motherhood, they DO affect whether someone decides to become pro-choice or pro-life (in most cases, Nat Hentoff aside), and there is an effort-- not by you or Ross, but by some-- to downplay the connection between abortion and differing conceptions of sexual morality, when in fact one of the aims of the pro-life movement, along with saving the fetuses and embryos, is in fact to change cultural practices relating to sex and motherhood.

Dilan, can you summarize Luker, at all?

Sure. Luker conducted an intensive, nationwide survey of people who identified themselves as pro-life and pro-choice, and found extensive statistical correlations between these viewpoints and other viewpoints relating to sex, gender roles, and motherhood.

It's a great book. She includes not only the statistics but also quotes numerous narratives from her survey respondents regarding how they view these issues. The ultimate conclusion is that many pro-lifers and pro-choicers simply live in different worlds.

It's at least 20 years old now, but I doubt that the results would be any different if you conducted the same surveys today.

Yeah, sure, but I don't see what pro-lifers would get out of getting into this discussion. Most people don't say things they're not in any way obliged to say out of some absurd desire to see if they can give those they disagree with something to use against them. And given that it isn't even a primary concern...

Yeah, I know that much about Luker (I can google) -- I was curious if you had a soundbite summary of the "typical pro choice" worldview vs. the "typical pro-life" worldview. One thing I note from the online discussions (which don't offer much summary that I see) is that she's drawing much of this from the worldviews of _activists_. I suspect that on both sides activists are considerably more marked in their worldviews than the random voter who inclines one way or the other. I know a decent number of young women of no particular sexual traditionalism who are quite pro-life. But then I spend a lot of time on a college campus, teaching, so I have no idea how typical that is.

Yeah, sure, but I don't see what pro-lifers would get out of getting into this discussion. Most people don't say things they're not in any way obliged to say out of some absurd desire to see if they can give those they disagree with something to use against them.

Well, but there's the rub. Here's I guess what I hope you would take away from all this. A lot of us who are pro-choice are that way because we care deeply about the actual situations that women may get into that may drive them to seek an abortion. While we understand that not all abortions are sought for such lofty reasons, we also wouldn't want to live in a world where women who did find themselves in that situation were SOL. You can disagree with this-- I understand that, you're pro-life and not pro-choice. But this is really where a lot of pro-choice sentiment comes from.

So you can imagine how frustrated we get when pro-lifers debate this issue and all they ever want to talk about is theoretical arguments about DNA and having all the facets necessary to become a human baby and species membership and all sorts of other things far removed from the circumstances women are in. And you can imagine we are doubly frustrated about this when there is plenty of evidence out there that in fact many on the pro-life side in fact have particular attitudes about sex and gender that we think influence why they become pro-life, but which they don't want to talk about.

This really gets back to what my problem was with Ramesh Ponnuru's complaint that pro-choicers didn't want to engage his argument. Aside from the problem with the title, he didn't realize that pro-choicers are simply not interested in a long theoretical discussion about what does and doesn't constitute human personhood. We are concerned about the circumstances that real women find themselves, which is why we think the abortion option should be available. And we suspect that pro-lifers aren't as concerned about that as we are. And we don't want some woman to commit suicide or die with a coathanger or be beaten to a pulp by her abusive husband or father while we sit around in someone's study smoking a pipe and debating when life really begins.

I don't ask you to agree with any of this. As I said, I understand pro-lifers come at these issues from a completely different standpoint. But pro-choicers feel that the abortion debate is incomplete, if not disingenous, if the circumstances of the fetus are extensively discussed and the circumstances of women not at all.

Further, and to be quite honest, at least here in America, on these broad questions of sex, gender, and motherhood, American public practice, and probably public opinion as well, favors the pro-choice side. Indeed, Ross acknowledges as much in his post. We on the pro-choice side want to make sure that if restrictions on abortion are being used as a stalking horse for restrictions on sex and restoration of traditional gender roles, this is brought out in the open. Cynically, because pro-choicers are more likely to win the argument, but less cynically, because we really do value these changes in our society and do not want them rolled back. We don't want to go back to a society where women (especially married women) couldn't get hired because they were perceived to be likely to quit when they got pregnant. We don't want to go back to a society of shotgun weddings. We don't want to go back to a society of people disappearing for nine months. We don't want to go back to a society where sexual activity is permeated by pervasive fear. We don't want to go back to a society where women are stuck dependent on lousy men because they were forced to bear children they did not wish to bear. And we certainly don't want to go back to a society redolent with illegal abortions.

We think that society has moved, for the most part, in the right direction on sex, gender, and motherhood issues. Many pro-lifers feel that it has moved in the wrong direction. And before pro-life policies get enacted, we want to make a clear record of this difference and its implication, i.e., that pro-life policies will likely be a backward step when it comes to sex, gender, and motherhood. Indeed, for the pro-life movement, that is a feature, not a bug.

This is why I think the discussion of the circumstances of women is so important. It is just as key a part of the abortion debate as the moral status of the fetus. And for this debate to take place, pro-lifers have to come clean about how they feel about these issues.

Marquis and Dilan,

I'm a grad student now and I was in college just a few years ago so I also know plenty of young women (and young men) who are pro-life but without all the other baggage about sexual traditionalism that Dilan seems to be implying. In my experience many young people seem to come to their pro-life beliefs out of their love for children and infants.

The number of people who think that premarital sex is always wrong is very small, and those who think that birth control is wrong even smaller. So clearly the _majority_ of pro-life people do not share any of the values about sexual traditionalism that Dilan seems to think they do. _I_ certainly don't consider myself a 'conservative' on sexual matters. Unless being opposed to pornography, prostitution, 'swinging', adultery and casual sex makes one a conservative- I don't think that's _conservatism_, it's just common decency.

I would add that part of the reason it seems like traditionalist conservative Catholics and evangelicals dominate the pro-life _leadership_ (not the bulk of pro-life _people_) is largely because the mainline Protestant/Anglican churches have done such a piss-poor job of maintaining their traditional condemnation of abortion. It fell to the Vatican and the evangelicals to defend the pro-life cause, by default. If the Anglican, Methodist and other clergy had been doing their jobs, then the pro-life movement would probably not have the color of social conservatism that it appears to.

Dilan,

Countries like Brazil, Venezuela and the Dominican Republic have, to use the anthropologist's jargon, a "sex-positive" culture if there ever was one. They also have strict laws against abortion. In contradistinction, countries like Japan, India and China have highly conservative sexual morals. (I believe that "fornication" is against the law in China, and is generally highly frowned upon in Japan and India.) They all have legal and commonly practiced abortion. Want to take a stab at explaining your theory that the pro-life movement is all about sex? It isn't about sex, it's about life, love, and the ontological definition of a human person.

"The article says that Women on Waves estimated 80,000-200,000 abortions in Poland today- I would think that the low estimate is more accurate."

It was a concessionary point. It's like how I describe myself as "Anti-Choice." Also I'm willing to use Pro-Choice sources so I don't get the "your source is biased against me" claim.

On the other matter I actually don't believe in the sexual revolution and all that. However I doubt what happens on abortion makes much difference on that. The Sexual Revolution predates Roe by several years. Granted I think banning abortion would effect the cultural perceptions of sex, but I doubt it'd make people take up my views on sexuality.

Take the example of India and China. I hadn't thought of them until Hector mentioned them, but there's areas they're not all that uptight sexually. For example something like half of Indian men solicit prostitutes before marriage and prostitution in China is also huge. Nevada's abortion rate is in the nation's top five. Pregnancy can be detrimental to a prostitute's income and just as important many prostitutes have understandable reasons for not wanting a child being born in their "world." So the non-availability of abortion might well be detrimental to prostitution.

Also I think a ban might encourage a generalized increase in non-vaginal intercourse. That might be of concern because of HIV rates. Still Brazil's HIV/AIDS rate is about the same as ours so it's possible such an increase does not happen or increased use of condoms negates it.

The number of people who think that premarital sex is always wrong is very small, and those who think that birth control is wrong even smaller. So clearly the _majority_ of pro-life people do not share any of the values about sexual traditionalism that Dilan seems to think they do.

Hector, Kristen Luker's surveys establish you are dead wrong. A majority of pro-lifers DO have what one might call "traditional" views on sex and gender. Indeed, the correlation is amazingly strong.

Countries like Brazil, Venezuela and the Dominican Republic have, to use the anthropologist's jargon, a "sex-positive" culture if there ever was one. They also have strict laws against abortion. In contradistinction, countries like Japan, India and China have highly conservative sexual morals. (I believe that "fornication" is against the law in China, and is generally highly frowned upon in Japan and India.) They all have legal and commonly practiced abortion.

Hector, your point about other countries is no more valid now than it was when you first brought it up.

Abortion's legality in other countries has to do WITH CULTURAL FACTORS IN OTHER COUNTRIES. Indeed, I have noted that in the context of countries where women are forced to have abortions or female fetuses are disproportionately aborted, it is possible for a feminist to weigh the harms and decide that abortion should be illegal or restricted.

Similarly, there are all sorts of factors-- especially, for instance, the power of the Catholic Church in particular countries-- that can affect whether abortion laws are liberal or not. And even where abortion is illegal, you have to look at whether it is commonly practiced illegally or abortions are easily available in neighboring countries (see the discussion of Ireland above).

Hector, you want to argue for a pro-life movement that doesn't exist in America. The real pro-life movement is the one I describe.

Hector writes: "In contradistinction, countries like Japan, India and China have highly conservative sexual morals. (I believe that "fornication" is against the law in China, and is generally highly frowned upon in Japan and India.) They all have legal and commonly practiced abortion."

I'd like to point out that all three of these countries have a problem with excess population levels relative to land mass and/or median income level. It may well be a glimpse of the future for the rest of us.

There's a reason why "middle class" American families with more than two kids are oddities now, and it's not a phenomenon that happened by accident.

I agree with some of what you're saying Dilan. I think Pro-Lifers in the US disproportionately do not like the sexual revolution and might have more skeptics of contraception than society as a whole does. (Although I doubt it's anywhere near a majority even in the US Pro-Life movement) In the US the Pro-Life Gay&Lesbian groups out there have often been treated negatively by the Pro-Life movement. This would not be so, or not as much so, if they were sexually liberal.

However it's a long way from that to saying that they're Pro-Life because they hate sex or expect a return to the '50s or whatever. Nor does thinking something is "immoral" mean you automatically want it banned. I don't believe in contraception, but I would oppose any effort at banning it. I'd also support the rights of liberal denominations to have same-sex-marriage ceremonies, even though I personally think such things are illogical and unjustifiable in Christianity. People have free-will, etc.

If reversing the sexual revolution was really the goal there'd be much more effort against Griswold than you're actually seeing. Or at the very least more intense effort on reversing Lawrence v Texas. This is not really happening at anything like the level of the Pro-Life movement as a whole.

This is because Abortion is considered to be not simply immoral, like lying or adultery, and therefore potentially irrelevant to the state. Instead it is seen an assault against human life and or its value. At the least it's up there with experimentation on the mentally incompetent and female genital mutilation.

Re: I'd like to point out that all three of these countries have a problem with excess population levels relative to land mass and/or median income level. It may well be a glimpse of the future for the rest of us.

No kidding. Although Japan has a tradition of being able to manage its resources well, even before modernity, and its birthrates are (unhealthily) low even for a country that wants to slowly reduce its population. You're certainly right about the other two.

Here's the kicker- you don't _need_ abortion to be legal in order to decrease the total fertility rate. There are quite a few countries in Europe and Latin America where abortion is fully or mostly illegal, which have achieved at- or below-replacement fertility rates. Countries like Portugal, Chile, Argentina, Poland, Costa Rica, Brazil, Ireland, and Lebanon.


Dilan,

This is from the 2005 Harris Poll:

# Birth control/contraception is supported by 93 percent of all adults, including 90 percent of Catholics and 88 percent of born-again Christians, the "very religious" and Evangelicals.
# Condom use to prevent HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases is supported by 92 percent of adults, including 93 percent of Catholics, 82 percent of born-again Christians, 83 percent of the "very religious" and 81 percent of Evangelicals.
# Sex education in high schools is supported by 87 percent of the public, but only by 76 percent of born-again Christians, 77 percent of the "very religious" and 72 percent of Evangelicals.
# Funding of international birth control programs is supported by 70 percent of the public, including 66 percent of Catholics, but only 53 percent of born-again Christians and 48 percent of Evangelicals.

As for premarital sex, 95% of Americans have had it. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/59549.php

so I don't think your claim is at all accurate. If about 45% of Americans are pro-life, and only 5-7% oppose premarital sex and contraception, then clearly the bulk of the pro-life _rank and file_ does not oppose either one.

Thomas R,

I don't think that Asian cultures have ever particularly frowned on prostitution. Prostitution is highly compatible with a _certain kind_ of sexual conservatism, after all, as in Victorian England. Indian, Chinese and Japanese cultures even today are highly critical of pre-marital _relationships_ and pre-marital sex for _women_. Under Mao, China also had a violently anti-sex official ideology (although the Chairman's own personal sex life was prodigious).(Oddly enough, the Pill was illegal in Japan until recently, on the grounds that it would encourage immorality; I'm not sure how they squared that with legal abortion.)

However it's a long way from that to saying that they're Pro-Life because they hate sex or expect a return to the '50s or whatever.

Thomas:

I take your point, but there's two aspects of
this you are missing:

1. Whether or not pro-lifers have it as an explicit goal, the fact is that repealing abortion rights will have the EFFECT of making it more difficult for women to enjoy the fruits of the sexual revolution, and more difficult for them to stay in the workplace and independent of men. And whether or not pro-lifers have it as an explicit goal, the fact that many of them wouldn't mind it if that happened is certianly very relevant to the debate, especially since that very issue-- and NOT the debating-society issue of when life begins-- is why pro-choicers come out pro-choice.

2. Politics are constrained by what the immediate goal is. For instance, look how the anti-smoking movement, which swore that it was about keeping tobacco smoke out of public buildings, has now metastatized far beyond that into a comprehensive effort to stop people from smoking (even, sometimes, in their own homes and on public streets).

So the fact that making broader changes to sexual morality isn't on the agenda right now, even if true, doesn't mean it won't be the next step after overturning Roe.

Hector:

You dishonestly didn't include the link to that Harris poll. Here it is:

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=608

You were being VERY selective. First, in that poll, SIXTY-THREE percent of the public identified as pro-choice. So you can't extrapolate from that poll to a DIFFERENT sample where 45 percent identified as pro-life. Obviously the number of pro-lifers is well under 37 percent in the Harris survey (as some will not know or have no opinion).

Also, check out this one from the same poll:

"Abstinence from sex before marriage is supported by 63 percent of the public, but by fully 85 percent of born-again Christians, 85 percent of the 'very religious' and 91 percent of Evangelicals"

Those, Hector, are your allies in the pro-life movement.

Not to agree with Dilan, but I think that the pre-marital sex statistic you cite is weak as support for "only 5-7% oppose pre-marital sex": lots of folks who've had pre-marital sex would not say "oh, sure" for "Do you think pre-marital sex is, in general, just fine?"

But I suspect that some of Dilan's view may come from the fact that, in his book, you're a sexual conservative of the highest rank:

Unless being opposed to pornography, prostitution, 'swinging', adultery and casual sex makes one a conservative- I don't think that's _conservatism_, it's just common decency.

I think, yes, in Dilan's book that makes you conservative, and makes most pro-lifers conservative. And people whose views are as libertine as Dilan will tend to be pro-choice, but not make up the bulk of the pro-choice voters (though such views might be fairly common among activists).

Abstinence from sex before marriage is supported by 63 percent of the public

Which suggests, also, that it's hardly some outrageous right-wing religious loony view that is only held by pro-life extremists. Indeed, if you consider that poll as a whole it means a decent number of folks asked were (1) pro-choice and (2) in favor of sex only after marriage.

More critically, abortion really DOES come down to the theoretical arguments about life and personhood, in a way that it doesn't come down to different sexual morality, though that's an important factor in how beliefs are reached. The number of people who (1) reach conservative pro-life on the personhood of the fetus and (2) are adamantly full-force pro-choice because of their support for the Sexual Revolution is, I suspect, fairly small. Why do I suspect that? Because, charitably, I think that most people who agree "yes, this is a real human life, a person" are capable of weighing the negatives of abortion bans on sexual behavior (as they see it) and the negatives of killing innocent lives, and most people who aren't monsters will weigh saving lives over maximizing autonomy and orgasms. It's true that we have people who will come close to saying "well, the pro-life view of the fetus is nonsense, but even if I didn't think so, I'd still be pro-choice", and we certainly have a number of politicians and others who claim to agree on the personhood point, but either (A) don't really do so or (B) place ambition higher or (C) genuinely have (strange) philosophical objections to imposing even a rule for protecting life on others who disagree.

I think, yes, in Dilan's book that makes you conservative, and makes most pro-lifers conservative. And people whose views are as libertine as Dilan will tend to be pro-choice, but not make up the bulk of the pro-choice voters (though such views might be fairly common among activists).

You are mischaracterizing my position. The issue of what people believe about sex-- and what they actually do, which isn't always the same thing-- is complicated.

Most people oppose prostitution, swinging, and adultery. Porn and casual sex are the type of things that people often say they oppose in a poll, but don't have much of a problem with in their own lives.

But the claim I am making is really not on specific issues. It is on worldview. Marquis' 1/30/08 6:01 pm post above has a very good description, from a pro-lifer's perspective, of what the pro-lifer's worldview is about sex and childbearing.

My claim is that the WORLDVIEW Marquis describes is common among pro-lifers and rare among pro-choicers. And that many (though not necessarily all) who share that pro-life worldview DO come out opposed to various aspects of the sexual revolution and the changes in gender roles that have occurred since the advent of second wave feminism.

Further, my more important claim is that rolling back Roe will also make life more difficult for those women whose sexual practices and position in the workforce have been made possible by the changes in society, and that this is something that is at least tacitly desired by many pro-lifers. And that this is why pro-choicers become pro-choice. It is why the abortion discussion can't just be about the philosophical issue of when personhood begins.

The number of people who (1) reach conservative pro-life on the personhood of the fetus and (2) are adamantly full-force pro-choice because of their support for the Sexual Revolution is, I suspect, fairly small. Why do I suspect that? Because, charitably, I think that most people who agree "yes, this is a real human life, a person" are capable of weighing the negatives of abortion bans on sexual behavior (as they see it) and the negatives of killing innocent lives, and most people who aren't monsters will weigh saving lives over maximizing autonomy and orgasms.

That misses a fundamental point, Marquis. Many pro-lifers I have talked with miss this point.

I think pro-lifers don't realize that for many pro-choicers, the issue of whether the fetus-- and especially a very early term fetus-- is a person is an extremely theoretical an abstract question. Because of this, a pro-choicer very well may believe that, weighing all the arguments, the fetus is a human life and shouldn't be killed. Indeed, many pro-choicers say they would never themselves have an abortion.

But saying that the fetus is a person misses the fact that the fetus isn't the same sort of "person" that a born baby is. Fetuses (until a certain point in pregnancy) can't feel pain, don't have brains, aren't viable outside the womb, don't look like babies, are tiny, etc.

I don't think that enough pro-lifers are aware of the fact that they really are doing a sort of philosophical categorizing to put the fetus in the same classification as a human baby (or a human adult). A lot of people react to a picture of an early-term fetus by saying "that's a little baby". But a lot of others react to it by saying "it's not". The whole point of books like "Party of Death" is to convince people who are in that second category "it's not" that even though the fetus doesn't seem like a baby, it is in fact in the same philosophical category as one.

That's fine, and it may even be right, but it isn't the same thing as saying that, for instance, a black baby and a white baby are both human persons. Rather, it is saying that something that seemingly lacks various human characteristics is nonetheless still a person.

Where this goes is that pro-choicers may very well come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, this categorization is right, but still feel that we are weighing a what is essentially a theoretical construct against actual harm to women. Actual women in actual circumstances.

So, no, I do think that there are plenty of people who see abortion as "killing of innocent lives" but think that the negative effects on women of banning or restricting abortions outweighs a relatively theoretical claim based on a philosophical categorization of personhood assigned to something that doesn't seem like a person in many respects. And this is reflected in the statistics of people who are "anti-abortion but pro-choice".

I think, though, that once you say "ah, but that's just theory" and start using terms like "real women" (as opposed to the vaporous phantoms in the womb?), you don't really accept it's a person. It's like a slaveholder who grudgingly says "sure, they're 'people', but only in some wanky theoretical sense. I mean, you actually meet a darkie, and you know the difference."

Now, holding that for those people was far less reasonable. On the larger point, I think Dilan is somewhat right -- but I think he greatly overestimates the importance of abortion for enabling women to work in large numbers, or to thrive in careers. To some extent his "now companies have no reason to fear women being pregnant" brings to my mind a dystopian world where women are getting abortions because they otherwise have screwed over their company. Heaven forbid that not killing people get in the way of capitalism -- I still think Hector's right, and the worst of this worldview and the worst of the "right" in some modes have a lot in common there.

Dilan and Marquis,

OK, I'll accept that not everyone who has premarital sex will say that they approve of it in a poll. However, I think the Harris poll is fishy. I found a US News/Washington Post poll from 2003 (I can't link to it, unfortunately) which cites 67% of Americans who believe that premarital sex is acceptable, 94% who approve of birth control, and only 39% who believe that abortion is permissible where the mother's life is in danger.

People will also respond differently to questions about premarital sex, I would imagine, depending on whether they are thinking about teenagers or adults.

I think, though, that once you say "ah, but that's just theory" and start using terms like "real women" (as opposed to the vaporous phantoms in the womb?), you don't really accept it's a person. It's like a slaveholder who grudgingly says "sure, they're 'people', but only in some wanky theoretical sense. I mean, you actually meet a darkie, and you know the difference."

But that's begging the question (as are all analogies to slavery).

You see, the fundamental point is that race is an irrelevant distinction. The realization that slavery was wrong doesn't, for instance, lead inexorably to the conclusion that putting, for instance, non-human animals into involuntary service is also wrong. A white person and a black person are indistinguishable except for skin color, which is irrelvant. A white person and an ox have many distinctions, many of which are relevant.

Similarly, a born baby and a 5th week embryo have many relevant distinctions.

Indeed, pro-lifers are remarkably obtuse on this point. The realization that slavery was wrong does not lead to the conclusion that we can never draw distinctions among human different human populations that are based on actual relevant characteristics. In fact, pro-lifers, specifically, do this-- that, after all, is how they deflect the argument that abortion laws disproportionately impact women (by saying that only women can get pregnant and therefore there is a relevant biological difference).

So there are extremely relevant distinctions between the attributes of an early-term embryo or fetus (let alone a blastocyst or zygote) vs. a human baby. People who see those distinctions can be pro-choice-- and often are-- without at all believing that the fetus isn't a human life. Indeed, people can and do believe in fetal personhood and still come out pro-choice, because the claim of fetal personhood is a philosophical claim, not a self-evident one like the claim of black adult personhood.

This, of course, is a symptom of the broader pro-life disease-- you want a bright line in a reproductive process that is full of fuzzy ones.

A white person and a black person are indistinguishable except for skin color, which is irrelvant.

Metaphysically indistinguishable, sure. I think the jury is still out, with no clear conclusion either way, on other factors that many consider important, including physical abilities and intelligence. Now, there is a significant point here in that these are statistical group properties of genetics, while the differences between a one month fetus and a five year old are universal and qualitative, rather than quantitative.

Dilan -- yes, but you're not (if I recall) even the hard-line pro-choice position that I find most repugnant. I think you're wrong (and your views of sex are dead wrong, of course), but this fuzzy line viewpoint you describe would almost certainly incline towards significantly more restrictions on abortion than we make now, don't you agree?

Dilan -- yes, but you're not (if I recall) even the hard-line pro-choice position that I find most repugnant. I think you're wrong (and your views of sex are dead wrong, of course), but this fuzzy line viewpoint you describe would almost certainly incline towards significantly more restrictions on abortion than we make now, don't you agree?

Marquis, in a sense I do. I don't like things like partial birth bans as they have been constructed because I think in modern medicine you do need a decently broad health exception as the distinction between "threat to health" and "threat to life" isn't as neat as pro-lifers claim, and also because I think it is arbitrary to say that you can do the procedure to save the woman's life but you can't do the procedure to prevent her from, for instance, suffering an organ failure or losing her uterus or something similar. I also don't want women committing suicide (and killing both themselves and the fetus) because they can't get abortions.

But subject to that caveat, I could see there being significant compromises on late-term abortions, as there already are in some states (Roe and Casey don't preclude those types of laws, despite what some pro-lifers claim) and in many other countries.

The problem is, and I will be even handed here, I don't think either side of this debate wants to compromise at this point. Your side, obviously, wants to ban abortions from fertilization onwards (and I don't want to go round and round again as to why this is, but suffice to say, my side has suspicions that this is partly because of desires to create incentives in favor of traditional sexual morality). My side wants to uphold this as a woman's choice without state interference, and also is suspicious that a compromise won't hold but rather that abortions will be subject to ever greater levels of restriction over time until it is very difficult to get one.

But in a better world, what I think would happen is that we would come to some compromise based on fetal development. I certainly understand pro-lifers' horror over a partial birth abortion of a 9th month fetus. I just wish more pro-lifers would understand why, for instance, an early-term abortion induced with a dose of RU486 doesn't seem particularly horrifying to those on my side. And I think the reality is that until each side can convince the other that they are acting in good faith, these sorts of compromises are never going to happen.

Dilan, remind me which states prohibit 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, with a life/health restriction limited such as to be a real enforced law -- when was the last prosecution on such a point?

Actually, Dilan, such compromises would happen all the time in the give-and-take of democratic politics, if your side hadn't run through an anti-democratic coup with Roe, and then defended the turf while (in the case of many legal scholars) granting that it was an illegitimate usurpation, if you actually consider democratic law.

Roe is part of why the pro-life movement is radical -- we don't get to do real "give and take" on this, or at least nowhere near the level of compromise the public's views would produce in an environment without the 800 lb. gorilla of Roe squatting on the debate.

Dilan,

During the 1960s a lot of conservatives in this country considered the civil rights movement a Jewish-Communist plot to destroy capitalism, Christianity, freedom and apple pie. At the same time, many people in the Soviet Union regarded reformers like Nagy and Dubcek as capitalist stooges. Now it is probably true that Jews and Communists were disproportionately likely to support the civil rights movement, just as it is that people who dreamed of capitalism and the vanished aristocracy were probably disproportionately likely to support the reform communists. None of that makes any difference to the point that _objectively speaking_, in terms of what they believed in, Martin Luther King was no more an agent of communism than Alexander Dubcek was an agent of capitalism.

You see the problem with the motives game? We can play this all day long. When the Russians removed Dubcek from power they said that they had done it to prevent a capitalist restoration. It didn't matter that Dubcek _said_ he wasn't a believer in capitalism, that he had never _spoken_ in favor of capitalism, that he had never de-nationalized a single factory. Somehow the Russians said that they knew his hidden, nefarious motives which he was unwilling to acknowledge them. Do you see the problem with this whole line of argument? By refusing to accept the reasons that people give for their arguments, with at least a mild, prima facie assumption of good faith, you are going to make rational debate impossible.

Dilan, remind me which states prohibit 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, with a life/health restriction limited such as to be a real enforced law -- when was the last prosecution on such a point?

I don't think that's the proper measure, Marquis. In many states you simply cannot get a second trimester abortion, except in a hospital in an emergency. In that sense, the laws are enforced.

Actually, Dilan, such compromises would happen all the time in the give-and-take of democratic politics, if your side hadn't run through an anti-democratic coup with Roe, and then defended the turf while (in the case of many legal scholars) granting that it was an illegitimate usurpation, if you actually consider democratic law.

Roe is, of course, another complex subject. But suffice to say that the types of compromises we are discussing are constitutional under Casey and Roe. But neither side wants to make them.

Thought experiment.

It has been hypothesized that it is theoretically possible for a male to carry a child. Basically a fertilized egg or very new emryo is implanted under the skin and a placenta forms in response. The embryo could grow and eventually become a fetus. Birth would have to occur by caesarean eqivalent, since there would be no normal birth canal or uterus. The male would also probably have to be in a bed, preferable an airbed, to reduce bedsores for the entire period of gestation. He would also undergo a heavy risk of massive bleeding and probable death if something ripped.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404EFDA1031F934A15752C1A962958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Presumably this situation would only arise as a really stupid experiment or a rape-equivalent. In the strict pro-life opinion, does the man have an absolute duty to attempt to carry the fetus to the point of external viability? Clearly his life will be severely and negatively affected. Does he have to go through with it?

But suffice to say that the types of compromises we are discussing are constitutional under Casey and Roe.

Yes, I expected you'd just dodge on this. Come on, Dilan. Roe + Casey + Doe does make most moderate restrictions, with actual enforcement, unconstitutional -- maybe not according to the justices who'd likely ditch Roe in any case, and maybe not, in all cases, depending on the direction of the wind, to Kennedy, but to at least four court members. The health/life exemption in that combination of cases is so broad as to essentially defy legal enforcement. The only reason the partial-birth ban made it through was that claims were made that it was never the only way to get an abortion at that stage, so it wasn't a ban on any category of abortions, but rather of procedures, as I understand it.

We're talking about legal restrictions on abortion -- you're quite right that in some states 2nd trimester abortions aren't available, but this is not as a result of law but of culture and economics. That Mayberry does not have a porn shop does not mean the 1st Amendment is somehow vitiated there.

Yes, I expected you'd just dodge on this. Come on, Dilan. Roe + Casey + Doe does make most moderate restrictions, with actual enforcement, unconstitutional -- maybe not according to the justices who'd likely ditch Roe in any case, and maybe not, in all cases, depending on the direction of the wind, to Kennedy, but to at least four court members. The health/life exemption in that combination of cases is so broad as to essentially defy legal enforcement.

Marquis, are you a lawyer? I am. A lot of stuff put out by the pro-life side about Roe and Doe and Casey is wrong.

Yes, Doe requires a health exception. After the recent decision on partial birth abortion (which accepted a congressional finding that no health exception is needed), I am not sure that is always required anymore, but let's assume it still is.

It is NOT the case that because psychological health is included, no health exception is enforceable.

Among other things, a health exception can:
1. Require documentation of the compelling need.
2. Require doctors and, in certain cases, judges to review the claim of need.
3. Be limited to serious showings of psychological or physical harm.
4. Require that in nonemergency situations, the patient wait 24 hours and be counseled on her alternatives.
5. Require that the procedure be performed in a hospital.
6. Require that viability testing be performed on the fetus.

These things are all constitutional under Doe, Planned Parenthood v. Danforth, Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, and Casey.

It is very hard to get a post-viability abortion except in a medical emergency in most states, precisely because the laws that pro-life groups pretend cannot stand under Doe v. Bolton in fact are/i> on the books and deter providers from jumping through all the hoops.

Pro-life groups have political and ideological reasons for not admitting it. But it's the reality.

We're talking about legal restrictions on abortion -- you're quite right that in some states 2nd trimester abortions aren't available, but this is not as a result of law but of culture and economics. That Mayberry does not have a porn shop does not mean the 1st Amendment is somehow vitiated there.

If Mayberry doesn't have a porn shop because it has enacted lots of regulations that have been upheld and has made it difficult to operate one, that's a little different than if Mayberry just doesn't have a porn shop but anyone could open one.

Clearly his life will be severely and negatively affected. Does he have to go through with it?

Sure. Why not?

I imagine in real life few people would expect him to in the "rape" situation where someone does this to him, or punish much if he did. But theoretically, why not?

So is Ponnuru simply lying in the book?

Marquis:

Ponnuru isn't, as far as I know, a lawyer. He's a political pundit. And pro-life groups want health exceptions to not exist, for a variety of reasons. So the stuff they put out on health exceptions make it sound like the Supreme Court abortion cases make them a dead letter, when in fact they don't.

Ponnuru, being a nonlawyer, may have relied on pro-life lawyers for his information. Or he may have read Doe but not read the other follow-up cases where all the regulations that I listed above were upheld, so he concluded erroneously that Doe is the last word on the subject. Or he may have read the cases but not been able to distill the legal rule because he didn't go to law school and really doesn't understand how to distill rules of law from case holdings.

Whatever the reason, I can tell you that under the current state of the law, states can pass health exceptions with some teeth. And it is precisely because of these state regulations, which have been upheld repeatedly, that it is difficult in many states to get post-viability abortions except in medical emergencies.

Well, they are exemptions requiring documentation, but (from my POV) if "the mother says she will kill herself to a medical professional" counts, it's not really got teeth.

I'm glad to hear (though I'll admit I don't trust your analysis as an unbiased source, given your views) that requirements that can at least harass clinics into not performing post-viability abortions are possible.

But many places the compromise point would be far to the right of where you happily set it, and you know it. Roe distorts the landscape, making compromises that "err" on the pro-life side impossible in a constitutionally illegitimate way.

Well, they are exemptions requiring documentation, but (from my POV) if "the mother says she will kill herself to a medical professional" counts, it's not really got teeth.

Well, what if it appears to the medical professional that she actually may kill herself?

My understanding is that suicides of pregnant women is a real problem in El Salvador (where abortion is not only illegal but the laws are rigorously enforced), in many parts of the third world where rape is prevalent, and has even become a problem with pregnant teens in states that have parental consent laws here in the US.

This is yet one more example of where I think the pro-life movement is insufficiently concerned with the circumstances that women find themselves in. It's easy to ridicule mental health or to conjure up scenarios in which this will be faked to get an abortion (though ANY abortion law other than a "no exceptions even for the life of the mother" statute is theoretically susceptible to subterfuge). But focusing on that and ignoring the situations where the mental health issue is real and severe is insensitive to the women who actually find themselves in these desperate situations.

But many places the compromise point would be far to the right of where you happily set it, and you know it. Roe distorts the landscape, making compromises that "err" on the pro-life side impossible in a constitutionally illegitimate way.

Other than the words "constitutionally illegitimate", I do know that. But there's a difference between criticizing Roe as wrongly decided and saying that it doesn't allow any compromises or regulations that balance the competing interests at all. The second claim is a factual claim and it isn't true.

"Whether or not pro-lifers have it as an explicit goal, the fact is that repealing abortion rights will have the EFFECT of making it more difficult for women to enjoy the fruits of the sexual revolution" Dilan

Than this means the examples from other nations cited by Hector are relevant. Because if it's possible for a nation that restricts abortion to be sexually liberal it's unclear why it would be less doable here.

Sexually liberal Americans will have to start learning how to better use their birth control devices, but I don't see why that's such an egregious imposition.

On those who oppose abortion I imagine most of them disapprove of premarital sex, but I don't think anyone showed that they disapprove of birth control. In fact this is something of a slight tension between Catholic and Protestant pro-lifers. Both tend to be conservative on their religious beliefs, but few to no Protestant denominations are against birth control. What opposition they may have would plausibly be opposite to Catholics. Catholics traditionally leaned to the idea that as pre-marital sex is already a grave sin it doesn't make much difference whether you use the pill or condom in addition. They focussed on discouraging it with married couples. Protestants, if they do have concern about birth control, might be more concerned it encourages pre-marital sex.

"In the strict pro-life opinion, does the man have an absolute duty to attempt to carry the fetus to the point of external viability?"

Yes, of course. Although if he agreed to the experiment I think there could just be legitimate contractual reasons to hold him to it regardless of how you feel on abortion. It's like if a woman agrees to be a surrogate mother I believe she is sort of making an agreement to carry the baby to term. Aborting it I think could be seen as breach of contract or maybe destruction of property. (As much as I loathe using that term for an embryo/fetus)

If it's something forced on him by a mad scientist or something it'd be tempting to allow him to have it aborted. Still unless carrying it to term would be life-threatening to him I'd still tend to say no. Although the mad scientist should certainly go to prison afterward and be kept from having any contact with Bunsen and or Beaker.

Than this means the examples from other nations cited by Hector are relevant. Because if it's possible for a nation that restricts abortion to be sexually liberal it's unclear why it would be less doable here.

No, it doesn't. Other countries have different attitudes towards birth control, feminism, illegal abortions, religion, sexuality, marriage, and a bevy of other different factors. Further, these countries that Hector is attaching the label "sexually liberal" to are very diverse-- he seems to think that "Brazil" extends no more than a few yards west of Copacabana Beach and the Termas of Rio, for instance.

In any event, the fact that it may be POSSIBLE to have a sexually liberal society with illegal abortion misses the point that there are twin goals here, sexual freedom AND more importantly, feminism. And there's no way that it is better for working women to NOT have the option to have an abortion to terminate a pregnancy that could harm her ability to work, advance, and be independent of men. In other words, at best, for some women, it will have no effect because they will be lucky enough not to get pregnant. For others, they will feel forced to give up pleasurable sexual activities. But worst of all, many women will get pregnant, be forced to bring those pregnancies to term, and will be harmed or even have their lives ruined and derailed. Some women will even die at their own hands, the hands of abusive husbands or boyfriends, or due to complications of childbirth.

There's no way that one can say that the NET benefit for sexually active women of an abortion ban is a positive. Saying that it is possible to achieve relative levels of sexual freedom alongside abortion bans, even if true, doesn't answer that point.

On those who oppose abortion I imagine most of them disapprove of premarital sex, but I don't think anyone showed that they disapprove of birth control. In fact this is something of a slight tension between Catholic and Protestant pro-lifers. Both tend to be conservative on their religious beliefs, but few to no Protestant denominations are against birth control.

This is a distraction. 1. The real issue isn't that they oppose birth control, but that they see creating disincentives to "immoral" sex (including disincentives that fall exclusively on women) as a valid and good goal of governmental policy. One can support the right to contraception and still think that banning abortion will force people to have more biblically sanctioned sex lives.

2. Many protestants actually due oppose forms of contraception such as IUD's and birth control pills, and especially morning after pills, because they adhere to the belief that the zygote is the same as a born baby. And there is a trend among protestants of coming around to the catholic position on contraception.

The desire of many pro-lifers to use government power to bring us around to a more "moral" form of sexuality is a real phenomenon.

Women are capable of having sex when pregnant and even working for much of the term. If you add sending the baby out for adoption afterward I don't think it's as much of an imposition as you're indicating. I can certainly name female self-made millionaires who got pregnant at some point in their life, but neglected to have an abortion.

In addition to that there's certainly ways to make the pregnancy as financially detrimental to the man as woman.

Also pregnancy isn't cancer or a tapeworm. If it were as horrid for a woman's dreams as you think than why couldn't they just get their tubes tied?

Lastly I think you're seeing an ulterior motive because you have an ulterior motive. Pregnancy is sometimes blamed for the gender-wage gap. There's some evidence for that as the wage-gap in Ireland and Malta is noticeably greater than here. Although in Poland it's about the same. Still even if pregnancy is to blame, there should be ways to counteract such an effect.

Dilan,

Re:Further, these countries that Hector is attaching the label "sexually liberal" to are very diverse-- he seems to think that "Brazil" extends no more than a few yards west of Copacabana Beach and the Termas of Rio, for instance.

Don't be absurd, Dilan. Please read any decent work of anthropology concerning modern Latin America. Or just go talk to a Brazilian or Dominican immigrant, if you can take some time away from chatting with the sterile boardroom women that you seem to ideolize. I would start with Nancy Scheper-Hughes' "Death Without Weeping," for a start. Scheper-Hughes is a pro-choice Catholic, I believe.

As for 'a trend among protestants', there's also a trend among Catholics to not accept the teachings of their church, in practice, on contraception, so it seems to me that it's a wash.

Moreover, whatever the positions of pro-life _activists_, and I don't really believe you even there, certainly among the pro-life _rank and file_ there is not the same kind of sentiment against premarital sex and contraception. The second poll that I cited (US News/Washington Post) indicates that 32% of Americans oppose premarital sex, and 6% oppose contraception, while 61% oppose abortion where the women's life is not at risk. So clearly _no more than_ about half the pro-choice _population_ is opposed to premarital sex. Moreover there are some people who are both strongly pro-choice and against premarital sex. Probably not many, but some- my grandmother fits into that category, and I would suspect many Asian-Americans do. Taking that into account, it seems fair to say that a majority of pro-life Americans is not against premarital sex. I would suspect that this is especially the case what with the recent increase in pro-life sentiment among the young, who are generally opposed neither to birth control nor premarital sex.

So, Dilan, you keep bringing up the bogeyman of people cracking down on premarital sex and contraception, ignoring the fact that the people _with whom you are arguing_ are not trying to put any of these things into practice. If and when the pro-life movement ever succeeds in getting rid of abortion, it will cease to exist _as a movement_, because it is too heterogeneous. No doubt _some_ prolifers (probably not many) will go on to try to outlaw birth control and premarital sex. I would suggest that the greater number would probably go on to agitate for things like longer maternity leave, or subsidized child care, or perhaps nuclear non-proliferation or abolition of the death penalty.Some might even go on to try to address the lack of education and birth control option that often contributes to abortion.

Women are capable of having sex when pregnant and even working for much of the term. If you add sending the baby out for adoption afterward I don't think it's as much of an imposition as you're indicating. I can certainly name female self-made millionaires who got pregnant at some point in their life, but neglected to have an abortion.

So all women are held up to the standard of superwoman? Lets try a different example. Assume a young married couple of medical students is just about to begin their internships. After spending a nearly decade in school they become pregnant due to a contraception failure (it was used properly and they had lousy luck). Keeping the pregnancy will severely impact the woman’s career and probably both of their careers. Is it not understandable that they might not look upon this pregnancy at this time as a “gift”. Note, they certainly intend on children in the future, so she doesn’t get her tubes tied. In exchange for accepting this potential child now, they are impairing both the contributions they could make to society as doctors and they are not able to give this child or any future children the upbringing they wanted to provide.

Also pregnancy isn't cancer or a tapeworm. If it were as horrid for a woman's dreams as you think than why couldn't they just get their tubes tied?

As the example shows, a pregnancy at the wrong time can be almost as destructive as cancer or a tapeworm. However, as you fail to acknowledge, circumstances can change. Women don’t get their tubes tied because while a pregnancy now might be a disaster, a pregnancy a few years down the road might be their greatest gift. As Dilan has mentioned, women are real people needing solutions to real problems, not absolute one size fits all rules based on theoretical issues.

Women are capable of having sex when pregnant and even working for much of the term. If you add sending the baby out for adoption afterward I don't think it's as much of an imposition as you're indicating. I can certainly name female self-made millionaires who got pregnant at some point in their life, but neglected to have an abortion.

That's tremendously insensitve to the situations actual women find themselves in. For many women, pregnancy and childbearing is far more difficult. And even many pro-life women would skewer your for implying that pregnancy doesn't interfere with the woman's ability to work. (And by the way, you will find plenty more successful businesswomen who HAD abortions and were thankful the option was available to them.)

Also pregnancy isn't cancer or a tapeworm. If it were as horrid for a woman's dreams as you think than why couldn't they just get their tubes tied?

Because a lot of abortions are about TIMING, not lack of desire to have a baby entirely. Getting pregnant in high school, college, graduate school, or during the first few years in the workforce is one thing, getting pregnant after a woman has attained a position where she can afford to have kids is quite another.

Dilan,

As one of my friends' mothers says, there's never a _good_ time to have kids- it will always involve pain and sacrifice. (She had four by the way, the last of whom had Down's syndrome, and all of whom are amazing people.) It seems that growing up with a Down's syndrome child in your family tends to make people pro-life...hmm, I wonder why that would be.
Poor women certainly do face the problem of not being able to afford to have children (another reason we need more social provision and a bigger welfare state), but I can't feel too sympathetic for those boardroom feminists that you keep talking about. I'm shedding no tears for Amy Richards having to go shopping at Costco, poor dear.

You seem to be totally callous and insensitive to the women whose lives were ruined by the abortion culture.

I would suggest that the greater number would probably go on to agitate for things like longer maternity leave, or subsidized child care, or perhaps nuclear non-proliferation or abolition of the death penalty.

Hector, that's just not true. Maternity leave, maybe, but the pro-life movement is not mostly composed of people who are terribly happy with "well, we should have the kids, and then let strangers and the guvmint raise 'em as soon as they are a month old." It makes me sad that some of my conservative, Christian colleagues with high-power academic career couples (yes, they exist) tend to drop the kid in day-care around the 6 month mark and never look back, other than to regret that "gosh, we get sick a lot due to little John picking up colds at day care", while a few of the more hippieish liberals actually wait a bit longer. But that's not the pro-life activists. Nuclear non-proliferation isn't on the map for most pro-life activists -- the bishops were both, but there aren't enough bishops to make a movement, and now that it's not a way to frown at both the US and the USSR, it's not very popular with them. Anti death penalty? Again, some overlap, but it's not going to be that large (I'm with you, but will also admit to being a lot more concerned about abortion than the death penalty, which happens much much less and is often somewhat just.)

A few questions.

1) Assuming the pro-life position is held to “save the babies” why aren’t IVF clinics picketed as extensively as abortion clinics. Normal IVF procedures call for creation of app 24 embryos, and implantation of the best 1-3. This means each successful procedure results in destruction (immediate, or delayed by freezing) of 21-23 embryos. The number frozen is over 400,000, the number discarded is probably much higher.

2) Earlier I suggested one means of reducing abortions via universal vasectomy. It was ignored, although it would certainly be far more effective at reducing abortions than any punitive solution. Countries which ban abortions tend to just drive the practice underground. El Salvador probably has the strictest laws against abortions that I know of, but they continue to have them. They are just more likely to kill poorer women.

Assuming that vasectomies are unacceptable, why doesn’t the pro-life movement put more effort into contraception. Unwanted pregnancies that do not happen do not lead to abortions. If every child left school knowing at least 4 methods of contraception and how to use them, there would be many fewer abortions. Look at the abortion rates in European countries where the procedure is legal. In most cases they are lower than here due to better contraception education and use, which leads to fewer unwanted pregnancies.

This lack of interest in contraception supports Dilan’s point about the gender policy implications of the pro-life stance. Universal contraception would virtually eliminate abortions. Not pushing for it suggests the pro-life movement has additional priorities beyond “save the babies”.

3) Again, why doesn’t the pro-life movement make greater strides to ensuring better childcare benefits? Anything that made raising a child easier would tend to tip the decision away from unwanted. The couple in my earlier example might feel less threatened by their “gift” if they could actually take care of a child without wreaking their career chances. All too often it seems that the unborn has a higher claim to our attention then the born do. Perhaps this is natural, since the pro-life movement may well feel that no one else is speaking out for them.. They fail to realize that if child bearing was easier, there would be fewer women with unwanted pregnancies seeking to abort them.

Marquis,

I'm not actually anti-death penalty, although I think it is used inequitably and unfairly. I agree that it can be a just punishment. I just used it as an example of an issue that I know a lot of the Catholic pro-life activists also get exercised about. I also brought up nuclear non-proliferation (which I suppose is not much of an issue for _anyone_ these days, as another random example of something that the bishops were agitating for.

My point was essentially that I _don't_ think that the pro-life movement is going to move on to trying to get rid of birth control and reverse the sexual revolution, after they succeed in getting rid of Roe.

Trevayne,

No, actually, I'm very much in favor of contraception, and when I worked in the Peace Corps I would occasionally give talks about it to village women. The problem though is that contraception alone won't solve the problem. It provides (one) _means_ to reduce abortion, but it doesn't give anyone a _reason_ not to have an abortion. In order to persuade people to, you know, take the trouble to actually use the contraception and not get pregnant, we need to make them realize that they don't have a convenient escape clause. And that is going to require moral, social, religious and, yes, _legal_ sanctions against abortion. And the sanctions are going to have to be fairly high in order for abortion not to seem like a tempting option.

Hector,

Glad to hear you favor contraception.

As for your point, on the contrary, it gives women the best reason of all not to have an abortion. It elimnates any reason to for them to have one. Do you really believe women would undergo abortions just for fun, or that women get high on the morning after pill?

My original propsal was for mandatory vasectomies for all males, with sperm donations to ensure people could still be parents. A 10 year nor-plant equivalent for women would work the same way. Require it as a condition of attending public school, just like other vacccinations. Why isn't the pro-life movement pushing these solutions?

Granted, there would still be abortions on health grounds, but you would eliminate all of the ones for non-health reasons. Isn't that what you are after?


P.S. I dealt with the "what if the freezer breaks" objection up thread. Briefly, I don't see why viable sperm can't be extracted directly from the testes after a vasectomy.

You seem to be totally callous and insensitive to the women whose lives were ruined by the abortion culture.

Because they don't exist.

Hector, it's a choice. If someone wants to have 11 babies, nobody stops them.

At most, there are some percentage of women who had abortions and later feel regret. Not any different than the way people look back at other decisions and feel regret. No big deal.

Generally, when people start talking about "the abortion culture", it's because they've stopped caring about real people within that culture and just want to strip everyone of their rights.

To return to the original topic, I expect a “pro-life” post abortion US will go either one or two ways.

1) If Roe is repealed and states are allowed to set their own policies, we will have a hodge-podge. Abortions will be legal in some states and illegal in others. People with the means will either permanently or temporarily from illegal states to legal states to have their abortions. Illegal states will have to decide what to do about this. They can either decide to track all pregnant women and forbid them from crossing state lines, or they can acquiesce and just hinder poor women who can’t afford to move. They would be forced into illegal abortions and some of them would die. The first would make pregnant women second class citizens. The second just does that to poor pregnant women.

2) If a national ban were put in place, the same things would happen on a larger scale. Women who could afford it would go to Canada. Women who could not would seek illegal abortions and risk death.

Note, since this is what happens in El Salvador, with AFAIK the strictest “pro-life” regime in the world, I suspect it will happen here too. In both cases, we would probably also see underground railway type organizations springing up to move women from illegal areas to legal areas.

The idea that women would calmly settle down and accept their second class status is a pipedream. And yes, I understand that there are pro-life women. Being a member of a group is no gaurantee that your argumentys will be in the interests of that group.

The only real means I see of achieving the pro-life paradise where no one wants an abortion is if we gave child bounties of say $100,000 per child. That way a woman who thinks her life will be seriously damaged by a child at this time, might decide the compensation is worth it. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to imagine all of the other drawbacks associated with those bounties.

At most, there are some percentage of women who had abortions and later feel regret. Not any different than the way people look back at other decisions and feel regret. No big deal.

Actually I strongly suspect there is more regret felt by women who give birth, hold their child, and immediately give the child up for adoption. Oxycontin and the other chemicals have had their way, establishing a very real attachment that can lead to lifelong regret. For that matter, abortion inherrently provides closure. There is no sense of having a child out there somewhere and speculating on how it is doing.

Dilan,

"No big deal" you say? Thanks for your respect for the millions and millions of women who will live their lieves riven by guilt, remorse, and sorrow over the baby that they didn't have. You seem to be totally incapable of realizing that there are things in this world worse than pain or death, and one of them is living with a guilty conscience. Of course, the church forgives such women but in your world there can be no forgiveness because there can be no guilt. Fortunately, not everyone is as shallow as you.

Your talk about freedom of choice means little to me, as little as it does when people defending the American economic system talk about freedom of choice. In both cases, freedom of choice is an illusion. The kind of choices that people are "free" to make are constrained by the kind of values that characterize the society they live in. A society that celebrates the woman's 'right to choose' is inherently one that devalues motherhood, and that will tempt and persuade women, many of whom are actually girls not even old enough to know what their own values are, to have abortions. Few mothers will be strong enough to stand up to the abortion culture, and they will make the decisions that society wants them to make- which in a pro-'choice' society, is the decision to abort. That is what your freedom of 'choice' amounts to in practice.

You can rhapsodize about freedom and women in the boardroom and whatever all you want, but at the end of the day, your utopia boils down to the saline solution, the vacuum tube, and little babies left to die.

Trevayne,

I don't consider the right to have an abortion, a right worth having, so it isn't the worst thing in the world if rich (and amoral) women are able to break the laws more easily than poor women. The rich are better able to get away with using cocaine and hiring hitmen too, but I don't think that those should be legal. After we address inequalities of income, of health, of education, and of life chances, then we can chat about how to make abortion laws more equitable.

And no, the proper comparison wouldn't be the underground railway, it would be those services who ship village girls to become sex-slaves in the Bangkok brothels. That's the moral equivalent to those people who transport women for abortions.

Why isn't the pro-life movement pushing these solutions?

I know this thread is dead, but I think it's worth noting that, despite many claims otherwise from NOW and NARAL and a host of others, "we're not insane totalitarian loons" is a pretty short answer.

I can't imagine, given other posts, that Trevayne posted this absurd compulsory contraception stuff as anything but a (rather stupid) means of attack. I doubt it was a serious thought experiment.

What does interest me is that I think early-20th-century thinkers who would likely have been pro-abortion might in many cases have meant it seriously, and I think we might come around to a time when they will again. I'll note that if the state starts (and I do think this is stunningly unlikely any time soon) forcing vasectomies or norplant on everyone, it will be high time to launch a violent revolution.

Why isn't the pro-life movement pushing these solutions?

I know this thread is dead, but I think it's worth noting that, despite many claims otherwise from NOW and NARAL and a host of others, "we're not insane totalitarian loons" is a pretty short answer.

I can't imagine, given other posts, that Trevayne posted this absurd compulsory contraception stuff as anything but a (rather stupid) means of attack. I doubt it was a serious thought experiment.

What does interest me is that I think early-20th-century thinkers who would likely have been pro-abortion might in many cases have meant it seriously, and I think we might come around to a time when they will again. I'll note that if the state starts (and I do think this is stunningly unlikely any time soon) forcing vasectomies or norplant on everyone, it will be high time to launch a violent revolution.


MoC - Thank you. I had doubts about where you stand on the issues and you have resolved them. You claim to oppose abortions, and when I suggest a possible solution you decry it as totalitarian because it would impact the male freedom to impregnate where they like. On the other hand, women must be coerced into carrying pregnancies under any and all circumstances, some thing which limits their freedom much more than a vasectomy would limit a man’s freedom.. Clearly, in your view limitations on personal freedom are only totalitarian when they affect men. Women, not so much.

In a later post I suggested the universal contraception could be done for women, but that was also unacceptable to you. Given that, it is pretty clear that Dilan was correct and the desire to “save babies” is only an excused to keep women’s sexuality under control. If they have sex, there must be a risk of pregnancy. Otherwise those uppity women might get ideas.

Hector –

I don't consider the right to have an abortion, a right worth having, so it isn't the worst thing in the world if rich (and amoral) women are able to break the laws more easily than poor women. The rich are better able to get away with using cocaine and hiring hitmen too, but I don't think that those should be legal. After we address inequalities of income, of health, of education, and of life chances, then we can chat about how to make abortion laws more equitable.

Well I do not consider women to be second class citizens. If they can not control their own bodies they are slaves with privileges, not free people. You apparently do not have a problem with that.

And no, the proper comparison wouldn't be the underground railway, it would be those services who ship village girls to become sex-slaves in the Bangkok brothels. That's the moral equivalent to those people who transport women for abortions.

Utter BS. As I stated above, a woman who is forced to carry a pregnancy against her will is a slave, just like your sex slave example. A woman who chooses to bear a child or not to bear a child is excercising her free will and is clearly not a slave. You seek to take that choice away.

Please, don’t bother calling me a murderer. In my view a fetus that can not survive outside the body bears the same resemblance to a human being that an acorn does to an oak tree. Yes, both may have the potential to become some thing else, but that doesn’t mean they are the other thing. I can see some cause for restrictions after external viability, but there are virtually no such abortions (perhaps 100 out of 1.6 million) in a recent study and I would be astonished if any of them wasn’t for urgent medical necessity. Do you really think a woman who has put up with 6 months of pregnancy will abort on a whim?