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Mitt Romney's Long March

08 Jan 2008 10:16 am

The conventional wisdom, encapsulated here by Jason Zengerle and here by the gang at Fox News, is that if Mitt Romney loses New Hampshire to McCain he'll lose Michigan as well, and then his campaign will be finished. I suppose that’s the most likely scenario, but this is a weird enough year that it's worth at least considering the possibility that Romney could lose New Hampshire and Michigan and South Carolina and still have a chance at winning the nomination.

Consider this scenario: McCain wins tonight by a narrow margin – say, 3 points – and then goes to Michigan, where independents buoy him to a five point win, with Romney in second and Huck in third. Then Huckabee wins South Carolina, with McCain and Romney bunched just below him; Thompson finishes fourth, drops out, and endorses McCain. At this point the media will be counting Romney out, no question. But heading into Florida and Super Tuesday he’ll still have plenty of money to spend - as much if not more than his rivals - and with Thompson gone he'll be the only “Reagan conservative” in the race. Neither the Huckabee nor the McCain campaigns are exactly organizational juggernauts, even if the money spigot opens for McCain after New Hampshire, and both candidates have what in a different year would be disqualifying weaknesses. Why shouldn’t Romney stay in the race? If McCain stalls out around 30-35 percent in New Hampshire, arguably the best of all political environments for his candidacy, why shouldn't the Romney campaign assume that he can be beaten further down the road, in the same way that Bush outlasted him in 2000?

True, this sort of trench warfare would be bad for GOP unity, and might even result in a brokered convention. But why should Romney care about uniting the party behind McCain or Huckabee? They both hate him like poison, and he presumably returns the sentiment: Why shouldn't he make life as difficult for them as he possibly can?

And true, in this scenario Romney would be essentially adopting Rudy Giuliani’s much-derided “long march” strategy - but perhaps with a better chance of success. Giuliani is trying to mount a big-state comeback after disappearing from the media narrative for a month (and getting beaten by, ahem, Ron Paul), whereas Romney’s fight with McCain and Huckabee will be front-page news from here till February; Giuliani doesn’t have much institutional support within the conservative movement, whereas Romney does; and Giuliani and McCain are competing for the same pool of national-security-oriented moderate Republicans, whereas once Thompson drops out Romney will be the only candidate of right-wing orthodoxy left in the race. He’ll still have the NR endorsement. If he seems viable, he’ll have Rush Limbaugh, Hugh Hewitt, and the rest of talk radio in his corner. And he'll be up against one candidate who - so far - only does well in GOP primaries when independents are allowed to vote, and another guy whose appeal still looks awfully sectarian. In a race where nobody seems capable of breaking 35 percent in the national polls, why shouldn't the campaign go all the way to the convention?

Maybe it couldn’t happen this way. Maybe if and when McCain starts winning primaries, an Obamaphobic GOP will unite around him; maybe if Mitt stays in after a slew of second-place finishes he’ll start looking like a joke. But no matter what happens tonight, I think the Romney campaign ought to keep hope alive.

Comments (87)

Thank you Ross -- you have just outlined the scenario every Dem ought to be rooting for. Let Romney (the weakest, most elitist, least eloquent and least appealing GOP candidate) prevail following a long and bitter fight with McCain and Huckabee, then put him up against Obama + Warner or Richardson as VP in November.

MARCU$

Romney has also laid a lot of groundwork in states where delegates are awarded by some complicated (non-primary) process. Not that this will save him if he can't make some headway in huge delegate-rich states like CA - but just by way of example, Romney is currently leading in delegates (thanks to his win in WY), and will *still* be leading in delegates even if he takes second in NH. Who will take Nevada's delegates? Probably Romney. West Virginia? Well, Romney has the second most dedicated convention delegates (slightly behind Paul, 229 to 225?), but there's a strong presumption that the 500-odd uncommitted delegates will be more likely to back Romney than Paul.
This is actually one of the things that recommends Romney to me: his ideology is merely OK, and his waffling makes me wince, but in terms of management and organization the man is clearly a goddamn machine. Someone who wants a competent *manager* as president has I think a pretty clear choice.

Many of us are for Mitt Romney!! We're conservative Republicans.

Ross, I posted something in response to this on Hugh Hewitt's site this morning:

With what possible rationale could Mitt Romney, supposedly the greatest businessman ever, put down at least 4 million dollars of his own money (since if he loses NH, a lot of his fundraising will dry up) to have maybe, MAYBE, a 10% chance of winning the presidency?

I think Mitt Romney is more conservative than people give him credit for. He was never a big supporter of abortion, he supported parental notification laws, prevented enshrining "choice" into state law and fought efforts to lower the age of consent. He didnt block pro life legislation and some of his pro life views date back more than a decade, not 4 or 5 years ago. His opponents have all changed their positions on a number of issues. I think Mitt's dedication to his wife and family should show that he has convictions if that is his main downfall. He believes in tradition and family.

Wow, the Romney bots move quickly.

Sam, Mitt Romney is more than just a good businessman, he has turned around many, many companies and built up small and large businesses. As for his investment in the political process being bad business judgement, i dont think it was. He came second in Iowa in a state where evangelicals made up 60% of the turnout and who view his morman religion with disdain. He won in Wyoming. Now he is in New Hampshire and winning among republicans but loosing to McCain among independants in a now democratic state. This makes sense, McCain is on the left of the republican party.

I agree with this article. Why would Romney drop out? He is picking up delegates. He will be leading in delegates still after NH, unless it is a total McCain blowout there.

The truth is, if he can keep coming in 2nd while McCain, Thompson, and Huckabee take turns winning 1st, then Romney will continue to pick up more delegates than any one of them. People need to get past this mindset that Iowa and NH are the only places that get to choose a president.

Lol, well i wouldnt call myself a Romney bot, but i do like him and i really like John McCain too, i just dont think he will be able to bring republicans together and I think his complaints about Romney's ads and his obvious disdain for a man with quite a sunny disposition are unattractive. Romney's ads dont attack McCains character at all they just point out that McCain supports a radical immigration agenda that will eventually legalize millions and millions of illegal immigrants and hurt the American working class. Look at any poll of working class and middle class Americans, and you will see that Americans DO NOT want to turn all these people into citizens.

John, my question is not whether his investment (which was 17.4 million in October, http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3714738) was worth it then: then it seemed like he had a pretty good chance to win. The question is, if he loses New Hampshire, why does it make any sense to keep throwing good money after bad?

If Mitt Romney can procure a Son of the South running mate to offset the anti-Mormom bias below the Mason-Dixon line, he can test Obama's limits with his vast pockets and erudite persona. We all know liberal Obama is once you scroll past his proclamations of hope. For instance, he believes in no restrictions on any type of abortion among other things. The ammunition is there to expose Obama.

I'm very encouraged by looking at this possible scenario. I actually even see Romney as likely to follow it. He wants this nomination and is confident that he is the only republican candidate that stands a chance in the general election. I, for one, agree.

Mitt Romney is the only republican in the race with a consistently conservative track-record. As governor of a ridiculously liberal state he was still able to take and keep control of the economy. Governor Huckabee, on the other hand, managed to raise the tax burden in his state. Romney has a consistant message on illegal immagration, whereas McCain stood beside loathesome lib Ted Kennedy on the amnesty bill. After much prayer and deliberation, Romney has finally got it right on social issues such as his pro-life stance, an ideal which he now fervently and sincerely follows. Rudy and McCain, good and honorable men though they may be, have been unable or unwilling to take such a moral stand.

Only a true, dyed-in-the-red conservative such as he will stand a chance in the general election.

Saddly, I just can't see the conservative base which is the life-blood of this country, backing a man with the record of a John McCain. John McCain is a democrat that just happens to be pro-war on terror. Republicans won't get truly behind him, as they never have, because of his wrong stance on moral, social, and economic issues. And you can be dang sure that democrats won't back him.

Huckabee is running on identity politics alone and the only ones out there talking about his policies and track record are his oponents, a theme that's bound to continue throughout the campaign. He's relying soley on the idea that he's got the anti-mormon, anti-abortion, evengelical right in his cheering section, an idea that's not totally true (60% of Iowa voters on the republican side identified themselves as evengelical christians yet Huckabee only got 34% of the total vote. Make of that what you will), nor will it be enough in the general election should he get the nomination.

Anyway, that's my two cents for now.

In other words. . .the convention might actually mean something this year. If the scenario described above plays out, it will mean that Romney, by far more than any other Republican candidate, would have been collecting the vast majority of second place finishes in state after state. Which would mean that he's the most competitive nationally. Which would mean he'd have the most delegates in theory.

I'm not sure this scenario is likely--it's correctly plotted here if it were to happen, but I think Romney wins NH tonight, then Michigan. SC will be a tough one with the Hickabees, but I think in two weeks Fred and McCain are toast, and the Huckster will be left with his guitar and his pardons wondering why he ever thought he had a chance to begin with. Because, the bottom line for Republicans is what it has always been in this race, and that is unless Obama turns out to the rest of us to be the addictive drug his lovers seem to treat him like, there is no way that Hillary or Obama would beat either Romney or Rudy.

John - you say Romney is a man of convictions and yet just about everyone in the media , all his rival candidates and increasingly the voters say no . Remember this is the man who completely pandered to the liberals in Massachusetts over pro gay , pro abortion and anti gun issues now he tells us that he is resolutely pro life , in favour of of traditional marriage to the exclusion of all else including polygamy and that he has been a life long hunter . Romney claims he wept when he heard that his Mormon leadership were to allow blacks in the priesthood and yet he completely went along with the cursing of black people because of the colour of their skin .
Romney solicits the support of evangelical pastors but keeps from them that he participated in secret Mormon Temple rituals depicting the same pastors as being in the hire and pay of Satan . He holds his hand up and says that people should not get personal in their attacks and yet by common consent he has waged the most negative campaigns of all the candidates Republican or Democrat . He puts himself up as the consensus conservative and now he jumps on the Obama band waggon and says he the only Republican candidate for change .
Romney says we need a man of faith in the White House but he steadfastly refuses to talk about his faith because he knows the Mormon teaching that Jesus is the Devil's brother would disgust Christians [and for that matter Muslims also] as well as people of no particular faith .
He is quick to assert bigotry concerning anyone that raises the issue of his dreadful religious beliefs and yet he was pleased to say that he would not have a Muslim in his cabinet despite the fact there are more Muslims in the USA than Mormons .

Whatever Romney is he is not a man of conviction and as one of the New Hampshire newspapers so accurately described - he is a phony .
As a British citizen I congratulate you Americans for your rigerous winnowing process which God willing will find Romney out . Even in America where money counts for so much I cannot believe your office of Presidency can be bought . So Romney can struggle on with his millions but it will be to no avail .

Several months ago there was talk of McCain accepting federal funding for his campaign and therefore being limited to what he could spend in each state. Did that ever happen? If so then he's got one hand tied behind his back already.

When you combine that with his calling most Americans "bigots" because we didn't accept the amnesty plan he was ramming down our throats, and his failure to apologize for not backing 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, I'd say he won't be the nominee.

Romney could very well be the last man standing.

Romney would be clobbered in a general election. He has already conveyed a clear image of a candidate who says whatever the focus groups tell him to say (this week, he's become the candidate of Change!, surprise, surprise).

It's hard to undo a first impression in politics. And on the national stage, the first impression Mitt Romney has given voters is "Phony."

"Romney solicits the support of evangelical pastors but keeps from them that he participated in secret Mormon Temple rituals depicting the same pastors as being in the hire and pay of Satan ."

Hah! I'm a Mormon and attend the temple regularly. Such a notion as this is laughable!

Please stop witht the religious bigotry. Save it for some anti-mormon site or something and keep it out of politics. Especially if you're just going to lie and slander in a highly offensive nature.

Any time Andrew Price is involved we know it is because he is ANTI-Mormon. He has a lawsuit against him in England for stalking and harrassing the Mormon missionaries.
ARTICLE: Preacher barred from going near Mormons
The Mormon church has won a High Court injunction against an evangelical preacher whose pursuit of their missionaries "bordered on the obsessional".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/30/umormons.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/11/30/ixportaltop.html
ARTICLE: Mormons Seek Injunction After Harassment by Evangelical
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_041125mom.shtml

ARTICLE: Judge tells ranting preacher to stop abusing Mormons
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/01/nmorm01.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/01/ixhome.html

ARTICLE: A Look at Jerald and Sandra Tanner's Covering Up the Black Hole in the Book of Mormon
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=127&table=review

Sorry for the college football comparison but it so aptly applies to this campaign.

College football had the strangest year this year due to the weekly upsets that kept the top 10 changing on a weekly basis. Just weeks before the end of the season, LSU and Ohio State were both given up for dead since they suffered late-season losses. It was the first year that two teams with two losses were playing for the national title. The parity made for an extraordinary year with multiple "firsts" and pretty much turned the status-quo on its head. The pundits were baffled.

I believe this election campaign has too many unknowns for the political pundits to use their measuring sticks of the past to judge 2008. The MSM is losing control of their venue with the advent of the internet and that insecurity is causing them to panic. Everyone wants to rely on proven methodology but I think the way we elect our president is being turned on its head.

Evidence the recent change of Wyoming's primary to be sandwiched between Iowa and NH. Almost the entire media ignored Wyoming's results. Wyoming has more delegates than NH - the difference was the media wasn't there. If a tree falls in the forest and the media isn't there, it didn't happen.

Fox News has a trivia question that asked who the only two presidents to be elected that didn't win NH were? The answer is Clinton and Bush. To me that says the last two aren't an anomaly more than they are a paradigm shift showing we can't rely on the past. I have to agree that Iowa and NH aren't the bell-weather states they've been in the past. Why should I think independent voters that don't vote Republican can decide who our candidate is going to be?

I think the paradigm shift is evident in so many ways and this article demonstrates why that is. My mantra is the media is spinning out of control because they aren't in control. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson would love our day and how the internet is turning politics back to the people.

McCain has been and is currently pro-life. His statements suggest he has absolutely no plans to pull us out of Iraq. His immigration stance more than anything else suggests he is solidly pro-business (lest we forget that the immigration problem we have today is directly tied to the need for cheap labor). Those are the so-called three legs of the GOP stool, and his record is longer and truer than any of his opponents. Why people keep saying Romney is the base candidate when McCain is more consistently right-leaning continues to baffle me.

I have not seen one credible case that Romney could beat either Hillary or Obama. Vs. Hillary, he ends up looking like Rick Lazio, up against Obama, he looks like the privileged, preppie kid with even less foreign policy experience. The first attack ad Romney unleashes on Obama will get the GOP branded as racist baby killers, a la Newt Gingrich circa '97. Obama cannot paint McCain as Darth Vader, the way he could with Romney.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to Romney staying in for a long time, and I wouldn't count out the possibility of Romney for Veep. McCain has no problem reconciling with one-time opponents, such as Dubya.

Well, let's compare apples to apples then. MD, according to your argument McCain has zero advantage over Romney. If we're to simply follow your logic that the only important issues are life, war, and business, and that then apply your reverse logic that somehow illegal immagration aids business and thus the economy, then the two candidates are identical, right?

The fact is, ignoring the ridiculous assumption that our economy somehow needs illegal immagrants to function, is that these are not the only issues and on these issues the candidates do vary.

Issue 1: McCain is anti-free speech (McCain/Feingold)

Issue 2: McCain is a tax and spend liberal (Votes consistently against Bush's tax cuts)

Issue 3: McCain, as a long time US Senator, is part of the problem, not the solution. He has opposed true conservative progress in our country for years (see above).

Issue 4: Illegal immagration is a cancer growing inside our country. Illegal immagrants taking benifits are a huge drain on businesses and private citizens alike. The fact that anyone without ethics or morals of any kind can hire illegal immagrants at prices that no American would, or even could legally accept, artificially drives down the value of such jobs, participating in the further growth of this cancer, since only illegal immagrants will accept these jobs because they're the only ones who will take the ridiculously small wages. It's a form of mutual abuse and needs to end. Senator McCain does not understand that.

Debrar - I thought we have nailed this one on the head long ago . Firstly I have nothing to hide and that is why I do not use a blogger name . For all we know you might be be on Romney's campaign team or perhaps you are Mrs Romney .
The Mormons spent $400 000 in litigation in England and it is quite true that they won a court action against me - in Britain we do not have the enshrined Constitutional rights of freedom which you have in the USA . However what you fail to mention is that I have also won in court against the Mormonms which considering the fact I have no money to employ lawyers and have to represent myself is no mean feat .

My work continues and I am speaking to hundreds of Mormon Missionaries around the world - they in direct disobedience to their leaders are often in conversations with me lasting many hours .
I should also say I have been kicked , punched spat upon by Mormons - my wife and I have received obscene phone calls and when I have been in both Salt Lake City and Boise I have received death threats . In Boise the police had to issue me with a spesial cell phone which would give me immedite contact with the Police Station . The Salt Lake Police were less helpful . It it true there are plenty of Mormons who think I am the pits but there are plenty who are happy to call me a friend and who are in regular contact with me .
Since you mentioned my good friend Sandra Tanner , bloggers will be interested to know she is a great , great , grand daughter of the notorious Mormon prophet Brigham Young - her testimony is she became a Christian and left the Mormon cult . It is also worth noting she had a Mormon law suit agaist her even though she was looking after her very sick husband . Like Mitt Romney the Mormons will go to any length to stop opposition .

Any way enough about me perhaps we can get back to the issues namely Mitt Romney and his increasingly failing Presidential bid . I have argued that he is not a man of conviction and therefore will not win the nomination - what do you say ?

Andrew Price...

If you are so Pius and religious, please let me know what you spent your 10 pounds on? Anti-Mormon and Anti-Christian retoric, or maybe some money for the fines you incur.

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO...

From a blog on the Church of Enlgland's website.

http://www.rejesus.co.uk/blog/?p=179

« Mind, Body and Spirit FairPink Velvet Jesus »Generating Christmas Kindness
This Christmas rejesus has a mission for you. How much kindness can you generate with a budget of less than £10. If you think really creatively how far could your act of kindness spread?

You have an horrible way of showing your Christianity.

As a New Hampshire resident, I am appalled that so many are apparently considering McCain as a viable candidate. He is a Republican by party affiliation only. Only an idiot could miss this. Wake up New Hampshire. Do you really want the Democrats running against EACH OTHER in November? Do you really want the Democrats to get 12 million+ new voters (and don't forget their offspring) which would effectively end any chance of the Republican Party regaining power - EVER? Again I say, WAKE UP NEW HAMPSHIRE!

This is from the real Andrew Price in answer to Mason

Mason the denigrating of the Christian Pastor in the Mormon Temple ritual was dropped in 1990 along with the throat slitting ceremony . So being focused on this point - I ask again how could a man of conviction participate in secret rituals which depict the Christian Pastor as being in the hire and pay of Satan and then a few years later seek their endorsement for his Presidential bid ? While you give an answer to that perhaps you can also explain why Romney participated in a ceremony of a depiction of throat slitting if he should divulge the secrets of the Mormon Temple ?

Huckabee's a joke, a total panderer.
Fred's dead and just waiting to bow out.
McCain's a proven loser and a liberal caterer.

It's either going to be Mitt or Rudy who gets the Republican nomination, whether or not it's determined at some point on the primary calendar or if the convention drafts a nominee. It's my bet that Romney will get the nod ahead of Rudy based on conservatism.

With what possible rationale could Mitt Romney, supposedly the greatest businessman ever, put down at least 4 million dollars of his own money (since if he loses NH, a lot of his fundraising will dry up) to have maybe, MAYBE, a 10% chance of winning the presidency?

If you are worth millions and millions, putting down a few of them for a 5% shot at the Presidency of the United freaking States starts to look like a pretty good play.

If I thought I had anything to contribute to the country, I'd go for those odds.

And never forget pride and the irrationality of sunk costs. Even genius businessman can be suckered by them sometimes.

Mitt is the only candidate (who actually stands any chance whatsoever of getting the nomination) that would actually govern as a conservative. McCain and Huckabee (the tag team candidates) would not. Mitt has the money, the delegates, and the voters. The media does it's best to puff up McCain and Huckabee for two reasons. They know Mitt is the most conservative of the candidates who can actually beat Obama and Hillary, and if Huckabee or McCain get the nomination, they automatically win. Regardless of who wins the general, a liberal will be in office. Go Mitt!

I have never seen a premise built on such a fragile card stack since my 3 year old granddaughter went home.

Perhaps if lightning strikes Obama, Hillary, and Edwards, Kucinich can still pull out the Democratic nomination as well.

Sam, Romney would put millions of his own into the race because he knows full well he can earn it back if he needs to. This is where a man like that is so different from you and me. $4 million to you or me is a lottery win and retirement. To him, it's capital, and there's lots more where that came from. This is not a result of privilege. It's a result of kick-ass business acumen.

Andrew - take it to a religious blog site bone head!

Politics are best on political blogs

Religion on religious blogs

Unfortunately the Huckster has helped blur the two together in his attempt to play identity politics, but lets try to keep them somewhat seperate.

Again take the over the top religious stuff to a religious blog. Go tell the folks there how Mormons are all going to Hell. On judgement day you can grab Christ by the collar and throw him out of the judgement seat and state, "I'll take over from here Lord".

I agree. Mitt will have a large number of delegates. They are not populists. They do not support McCain. Mitt needs to represent us.

I appreciate that Mitt has chosen public service rather than make himself a billion dollars. I would rather see self-funding than lobbyists.

McCain lead all candidates--Clinton, all of them--32 lobbyists bundling for him. His new environmental positions are all over the map.

McCain's example of leadership was to run his campaign into the ground. He is so scared of his record he refuses to stump on it.

McCain-Feingold is a gold star for him. It turned out as an excellent exploit for him and his NH media friends to trash the character of his political opponents while us grassroots were muzzled.

And McCain's partner Huckabee announced he wants another new amendment. That is 4 amendments! lol. Huck like McCain are all over the map on their positions. I have no idea what they stand for anymore.

My candidate was Duncan Hunter, but he's not doing so well. On the issues, I love Fred Thompson, but he's also not doing so well.

What's left? Romney, McCain, Giuliani and Huckabee. From the debate performances - Huckabee is hopelessly naive. I hate saying that, because I'd love an evangelical, but he's also got to be sharp on the issues, and except for the Fair Tax, Huck doesn't cut it for me. Thompson actually raised a good point in Sunday's debate - what if we get a Fair Tax AND an income tax?

McCain has been consistently pro-life and he's got the most military experience, but there are issues with his candidacy. Giuliani is a strong leader and in the debates he comes across as smart, tough and with a sense of humor - but he's pro-choice. Against Hillary, he might still win, but probably not against Obama.

Of all the candidates, Romney seems the best choice - he's had a model personal life, no ethical violations as a businessman, he turned around the Olympics, etc. He comes across as very smart and competent. If he picked a more passionate, Southern running mate, I think he'd be a winner. McCain is probably the next best choice. He supported most of Reagan's policies, he understands the war on terror, he appeals to independents and he is strongly pro-life. He's weak on immigration, but he could compensate for that by picking a strong running mate, perhaps.

Anyway, that's just my take on it. I hope the GOP picks either Romney or McCain, who I think could beat the Dem candidate. I don't think Huckabee or Giuliani or Thompson can.

Like your analysis. McCain will not do well in places where "indepenents" aren't big in the Republican primary. That "Maverick" I-am-not-a-party-guy panache he loves so much is not a plus with party faithful. Huckabee's star as media darling has been eclipsed by Obama. Guliani and Romney have the same problem - they governed in very liberal jurisdictions and reflected the wishes of very liberal constituencies. So, it is a grand meleee to the end. Romney is physically more presidential-appearing than Guliani, and that could be the difference.

If I were an independant left leaning voter in NH, and I liked Obama, and I saw that he has a sizeable lead in NH now. I would vote in the Republican Primary for Grampa McCain who has the worst chance of winning against Obama.

To put Andrew Price in perspective, here is an article when he received a restraining order for his behavior against Mormons.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/01/nmorm01.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/01/ixhome.html

Andrew, I, Mrs. Romney, think you're a weenie.

Have a nice day.

Andrew, normally, seeing as this is a site dedicated to political debate, I would not concede to even answer such a ludicrous question. However, in the interest of returning to the actual question at hand, I will simply respond by politely asking you to stop propigating a lie about the Mormon Church that is as old as anti-mormonism in general. The ceremonies of the Temple are gentle and subtle reminders that we are children of God, saved and reconciled with Him by the grace of Jesus Christ. They are not secret, but are considered sacred. Thus, they are not discussed outside of the Temple itself.

I have been a temple-going mormon for years. Please stop the lying and slander. As has already been said, save it for a religious blog site, or some anti-mormon site. Or better yet, read the Bible and the words of the Savior Jesus Christ as He admonishes us to be tolerant of all people and beliefs. Was it not He who deigned, to the chagrin of His disciples, to preach salvation to the woman of Samaria, a country and people loathed by the Jews, of which He was one? If you are a true Christian, you will stop the spread of lies and deceit and religious bigotry.

Please, this is not about religion, and never has been. Talk here about politics.

Why would Thompson drop out and endorse McCain?? that makes zero sense. We need McCain to lose tonight in NH so we can get rid of this RINO once and for all. Vote for MITT NH!!! I love Fred, hes my guy, but he is not runnign in NH.. so I would vote for Mitt in order to put a stake into McCain.

McCain sucks.

Prediction:

If Romney gets the nomination and goes up against Obama, a brilliant move will be to have Condie Rice be his running mate. Anyone comments?

In his campaign of gymnastic flip-flops and mind-bending distortions, Mitt Romney topped himself Monday with his hilarious claim that he's just "a guy from Detroit." While Detroit and Romney's suburban childhood home in tony Bloomfield Hills might be separated by just a few miles, his privileged life there was light years away from Motor City.

For the details, see:
"Latest Romney Laugher: 'Just a Guy from Detroit.'"

Romney comes off as too oily an opportunist with more money than God. If he buys his way to the republican nomination, I know his campaign won't get a cent out of me. Instead, I'll focus on donating to local congressional republicans to help win back the Congress. If the Congress remains democrat, a flip-flopper like Romney will just capitulate to them anyway.

Hey Angry Al:

Romney's advantage has and always will be his intelligence and business acumen. He graduated top of his class in law and business at Harvard. That doesn't come from being born in a nice neighborhood. Quit with the class warfare stuff. Romney earned every penny he's made and has successfully fixed every problem he's encountered. I think it is very cool that he can spend his own money to show the truth behind the other candidates. They and you have the same freedom to go out and earn money but people like you rather post comments on websites complaining about it. You're a Democrat - just admit it.

Romney is getting the republican vote in New Hampshire. The independents may choose which candidates win the state, but McCain isn't going to win the National Convention because of independent voters. The real winner today in New Hampshire will be Romney, even if he gets second place. He will be securing the voters that will be influential in choosing the nominee. Romney is winning in polls in Michigan and Nevada.

If Romney does adopt a strategy like this, I think he should make it explicit that he's doing so. Tell the press, tell everyone that you're planning to actually take the primary system at face value and try to accumulate enough delegates.

That way, when he "loses" a series of primaries by coming in second to different people, he has a chance at not being written off by the media, and thus not being overwhelmed by negative momentum.

Is intrade down? I cannot access their website.

The distressing thing to me is that in Iowa, we had Republican voters who voted religion over the issues and gave the Huckster a win. Now in New Hampshire, we have independents that are making the selection. According to the numbers I’ve seen, Romney is the clear leader among Republicans in New Hampshire but voters with no particular party affiliation or ideology like Scotty (who posted above) could “swing” the Republican contest to McCain.

In Wyoming where these factors didn’t come into play, Romney easily won. If Romney loses, we will have three winners in three contests which means the race is still very much on. My opinion is that the factors in New Hampshire don’t make a Romney loss truly meaningful. If Romney wins in New Hampshire though, that is significant because he would have won in a process that favors a moderate or RINO-type candidate like McCain.

Coming in second place does not eliminate a candidate. This is not unlike the election of Lincoln. He came in second place in most states and entered the convention in third place. He was elected at the convention on the third or fourth ballot because he was everyone's second choice.

Methinks the anti-Mitt crowd is doing a lot of projection: they WANT Mitt to be toast so BAD! However, bad news, haters: Mitt's in it as a marathon ending this summer in Minneapolis. It is less like a marathon than a decathalon times five. The winner is the one with the most points, not necessarily the one with more event victories. If Romney comes in either first or second in each primary, he will either win the nomination outright or have such a huge chunk of delegates he can be kingmaker. This means, quite frankly, it is McCain and Huckabee who are toast, because not in a million years will either get Mitt's support. If Mitt wins the nomination, it will be Romney/Rice. If he is kingmaker, I predict it will be Giuliani/Romney.

Okay, I just watched the Fox debate and I agree with Ross that Mitt came across as more wonkish, or more capable of communicating in detail about complex policy issues, than the other candidates, to his credit. Rudy came in second in that regard.

But Mitt also came across as petty-- the whole amnesty issue, splitting hairs, and then whether Huck raised taxes "net-net" repeated ad nauseam, and suggesting a governor would be more effective than a senator for reasons that are not necessarily meaningful. LBJ has to be considered one of the most effective presidents in the 20th century in terms of his ability to get a sweeping set of domestic proposals passed (however vile those particular proposals were), and he had been a senator. Now, obviously we don't want another LBJ, but a conservative version of him, someone with that level of influence and effectiveness would be ideal. Who knows, maybe Thompson and McCain could be that influential.

I can tell you this much-- Romney's accomplishments as governor are more evident in terms of what he prevented than what he actually accomplished. So I would not take him at his word that he could be highly effective as a chief executive within the realm of politics, which of course is a horse of a different color than his true element, business.

But if Mitt stuck to communicating proposals, like his three-pronged approach on social security, rather than slamming other candidates in ways that seem nit-picky, he'd be more likely to garner support.

While watching that debate, I found myself trying to determine which of those candidates McCain ought to choose for a running mate and while Huck would help him with the evangelicals, I have come around to thinking Romney would actually be more helpful to him. McCain-Romney could run as an unbeatable partnership on foreign and domestic policy, playing to each person's strengths. Romney could tackle health care, social security, taxes, and let McCain focus on the war on terrorism and diplomatic relations, trade talks, etc.

Eric's proposal of a Romney-Rice ticket is very appealing considering the likelihood of an Obama nomination-- I don't know enough about Condi's positions on social issues, however.

As for the issue of the nexus between business and immigration, if you guys choose to remain clueless about the real impetus behind our influx of immigrants/cheap labor, that's your problem. But you don't see the Wall Street Journal piling on with Limbaugh, NR, and the rest of the "Attack Mac" crew, do ye? I think the critique of Huck as an economic socialist is overstated, but he's far to the left of McCain when it comes to economic policy. And McCain can't be straying too far from the GOP mainstream on taxes and spending-- he's got Jack Kemp backing him.

The thing that many people don't get is that Mitt is not in the race because he wants the presidency--he is in it because he feels he can make a difference. That's the reason he took on the Olympics. He wouldn't have taken on the challenge if he didn't believe in it and wasn't going to see it through.

Remember, Mitt's gone through this type of things dozens if not hundreds of times. Turn things around (including campaigns) is what he's done all his life.

I for one, am grateful for people like Andrew Price. As a devout Christian, he feels the call of the savior. He only wants to bring more people to Christ.

Thats why he has chosen the relatively tiny religion about with about 18% of a single percent of world population to fight against. Thats the kind of war you can make a difference in with only hate in your heart.

To go out and try to convert the literally billions of people who do not know Christ would take a great deal of love. Which brings us back to the real reason that I am grateful for people like Andrew Price...they cannot help but have hatred shine through in all they do.

When people see anyone preach against any religion they see hatred. Thank you Andrew for showing that so much.

MD, so the solution to illegal immagration is to continue to let it happen? Or worse, encourage the wholesale invasion of our country by bringing forth amnesty legislation? Ignoring the possible ramifications as far as business and the economy, and I'm still convinced that illegal immagrants are far more of a drain than any possible benefit they could bring about, let's not forget that these people, no matter their most sincere intentions, are breaking the law. So, McCain's solution to this is simply to make it legal. Why not? That would do away with that whole "they're breaking the law" knit-pick, right?

My two favorite guys are Mitt and Fred, atleast they are conservative. McCain has just poked his finger in my eye too many times, and unfortunately, if he is nominated, he will be taking matching funds which dooms him (the RNC won't raise enough to help him and keep the senate from going filabuster proof). I could get behind Rudy, even with the pro-life problem (if Ted Olsen is picking his judges it's not a problem), but I worry about the personal stuff that may still come out.

When it comes down to it the Republicans are going to be in a huge fund raising disadvantage, and if Mitt were to pick and evangelical as VP, that should help that issue and he can fund any shortfall that traditional fund raising doesn't cover.

As far as tonight nocking him off, nobody says that about any of the other guys that have won none or one and Mitt will have at least 2 seconds!

Mason - I am sorry but your attempt to cut loose religion from politics is both improper and misleading . Improper because a true Biblical understanding believes that this world which God has created should be governed by Christian principles not secular or humanist priciples . I am against abortion because it is contrary to the moral law of God . Politics is the art or philosophy of Government - the Christian wants Christian government or as near as possible .

Misleading because since when has the Republican party not courted evangelical Christians . Could the Republican party ever win a Presidential election without conservative Christians ?

Misleading because Romney has played the religious card for all its worth . He has clearly stressed that the White House needs a man of faith . So if you have a problem of a mix of religion and politics I suggest you take it up with your favoured candidate . Also I remind you when Romney "accidently" said Barak Osama - do you really think that he wasn't making an absurd connection between the Illinois Senator and Islamic extremism ? I put it to you that ha was making a religious - political point that fundementalist Islam was beyond the pale and making the clear connection between that and Barak Obama .

I now turn to the point concerning Romney being a man of conviction . I ask again how can he be a man of conviction when he was a patron in the Mormon Temple and he received his endowments [ just before he served his mission ] , he participated in secret rituals which depicted the Christian Pastor in the hire and pay of Satan and then some years later he seeks the endorsement of the same sort of people ?

Mason - if you are denying this and the throat slitting ceremony taking place in the Mormon Temple before 1990 you are either not telling the truth or you are ignorant .

I now ask another question why did Romney consent to the secret Mormon practice of baptizing dead Jewish holocaust victims ?

All the pro Romney bloggers [most I suspect are Mormons] you have simply got to face facts that supposing Romney were to win the nomination do you think the Democrats would pass by the host of issues attached to Mitt Romney ? I am afraid it says much about you that time and time again instead of dealing with the questions you sink to personal abuse or just repeat mantras like " Go Mitt" . It reminds me of the Mormon approach to whether Mormonism is true you just repeat the mantra"I bear testimony it is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God" And so you repeat this formula of words throughout your life .
I guess if you say something often enough it must be true and Romney if he wins the nomination will be the next President .

This is not about religion. This is about getting the best man in Washington to work on the problems facing America. He will bring the best and the brightest together to solve the problems facing America.

VOTE MITT ROMNEY

Let's not count Thompson out just yet. At the moment, he's the one who has Rush Limbaugh in his corner.

Reading this thread has convinced me that most Republicans are now lunatics with IQs in the 70s. Idiocracy has arrived ahead of schedule.

I am a retired Catholic -- sick of them being on the wrong side of the law on everything -- and prefer to spend my Sunday with my husband,kids and ESPN. But it is so obvious from these posts that many of those against Romney are bigots. They just plain don't like Mormons, but are throwing around Satan and polygamy to be credible. Catholics don't allow women to be priests, but all is forgiven. Obama's church requires you to be black, no sweat. Huckabee is a fast-talking, wannabee televangelist. McCain doesn't get into the religious stuff, because he is too busy calling republicans yahoos and racists because we are upset our local police officer was gunned down by an illegal alien. ANd your problem with Romney is religion!!!! Egads. Save me from bible thumpers, bigots, guilt-ridden white liberals, and fat cat lawyers making 30% of their clients but hating corporate America. There is no more corrupt Corporate American that your average law firm. Obama is getting such a pass from the media, it is an embarrassment to watch.

Okay Andrew, I admit it, I'm a radical cultist that sacrifices cats in my temple to make sure that the all-powerfull Mitt Romney gains the presidency so that my "religion" (tee hee) can become the most powerful force in the world.

Look, I'm not going to take this argument any further. Anyone who wants to know more about my religion and religious beliefs, check out mormon.org. Wanna know a little more about Andrew's beliefs, well I'm certain he can furnish some kind of site or information for you.

True, religious beliefs and morals ought to influence choices in the realm of politics. My point is that no one here wants to hear myself or you preach and attempt to proselyte them and eachother. This is not the place for some kind of religious flame war, and if that's what you want, count me out.

To Andrew Price,

You stated "All the pro Romney bloggers [most I suspect are Mormons] you have simply got to face facts that supposing Romney were to win the nomination do you think the Democrats would pass by the host of issues attached to Mitt Romney".

If the Democrats nominate Obama, I doubt religion will be mentioned because Obama's church is not exactly white-bread mainstream and then there is the Muslim school issue.

Hillary might play that card but Obama likely wouldn't.

The fact of the matter is that attacks on individual points of doctrine do not work in a political environment. It's just tacky. It's too personal and too close to the type of character assassination attempts that sink campaigns. No one in their right mind, wether ethical or not, would take that route in the political field. Kuckabee mentions one point of docterine in a derrogitory way and has to spend the next couple of days apoligizing. No one is going to attack Romney's religion out right and be able to make it a winning point.

On the other side of things, Romney has mentioned that his religious beliefs will inform his presidency, but hasn't allowed himself to be drawn into a debate on points of docterine, opting instead to focus on the issues. I'll point out as well that other than Fred Thompson, who is talking about policies and ind issues.

On the immigration issue, do you really think Romney's idea of rounding up 10 million people (let's de-humanize them and call them "aliens" if you want), and shipping them back across the border even temporarily is the responsible and moral solution? One doesn't need to get religious I don't think, to see that this notion is utter madness. During a general election fight against Obama, Romney will be branded an evil demon by an already hostile media for the mere suggestion of enforcing this proposal. He needs to follow McCain's atrategy of focusing on the tamper proof verification system.

More on business support for illegal immigrants (see article below from the Boston Globe, October 2006 -- interesting twist is that Healey was Romney's Lt. Gov., and for political expediency, she changed her stance on illegals, as opposed to the views expressed by her entrepreneurial husband. She ended up losing hard in her bid to defeat the man who became the state's first black governor... in what I hope won't be a foreshadowing of the presidential election.):

"A presidential council that includes the husband of Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healey called on President Bush last summer to resist harsh measures aimed at discouraging the hiring of illegal immigrants, even as Healey campaigned for tough policies against undocumented workers.

"Sean Healey joined his colleagues at the July meeting of the President's Export Council in agreeing to tell the president that the role of illegal immigrants is a "special and important part of our economic growth" and implore him not to implement policies that would disrupt their presence.

"Removing undocumented workers from an economy with near full employment would be devastating and counterproductive," the 47-member council wrote Bush. "Documented and undocumented immigrants are filing the void. They continue to fill jobs Americans, for various reasons, are not doing."

"In its letter, approved by the 25 members who were present, the Export Council is asking Bush to open up "a path to legalization" that it says will "address the reality that millions of undocumented immigrants are now living and working" in the United States and provide "a solution, outside of deportation or amnesty, to deal with the undocumented already here."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/10/25/healey_spouse_backed_illegals_hiring/

Mason - You must appreciate Christians find it deeply offensive that you Mormons think the Lord Jesus is the Devil's brother . I spoke to nearly 200 Christian Pators in Iowa in November and almost all of them were profoundly concerned about the prospect of a Mormon President . These are god fearing men , patriotic and conservative -the bedrock of the Republican base - even if the choice was between Hilary and Romney many perhaps most would stay at home or support a third party candidate . This would be the story across America . Most Americans are ignorant about the belief system of Mormonism and it is clear the more that they get to know of Romney the less they like him - not just his Mormonism but his shallow unprincipled "do anything and say anything to get elected" prsonality . If he cannot win New Hampshire how could he do well in the Southern States ?

You may jest about your occultic masonic secret Temple rituals but you have to accept it is deeply shocking that you baptize dead Jewish holocaust victims . It is deeply shocking that Mitt Romney consented to the view that black people are cursed because of the colour of their skin , but fair skinned people are "white and delightsome" see Book of Mormon 2Nephi30v6 pre 1980 editions .

As you say "..his religious beliefs will inform his presidency" - thats the problem .

Andrew Price is a known diddler of small children, and will soon be brought to justice.

Even assuming that Fred were to at some point drop out, what in the world makes you think he would endorse McCain, who is an ideological polar opposite?

When a grown man says he lives in the greatest nation on earth,I fear his eragance. He must not have been to my nation.

Go Romney!

Wow, I have been a conservative all of my life and amazed that we have come to this point. When we finally get a true conservative like Romney to step out of his very successful personal world to run for any office in this country I get excited. As any true conservative will admit, we have been voting for the lesser of two evils for a long time because they were the Republican Candidate. Someone like Mitt making the decision to put up with the Andrew Prices and Masons of the world, the very Liberal Media, the 200 preachers who think they are Gods voice,and all of the other slanderous and dishonest voices that will be raised against him because he is a Mormon is an act of true heroism. My father, and Assembly of God minister, counts in his closest circle of friends many Mormons and expresses great repect for them and their lifestyles.
With regard to McCain, a great man who has served his country well and should retire and be remembered as such because he is embarrassing himself and the Rupublican Party by trying to claim he is a true conservative. Shame on the Republicans who are buying into it and bolstering his campain. He has no chance against an young black man or an experience women. The country is looking for change and he is not the voice of change. Huckabee, a very glib preacher but no real substance. Fred Thompson, had he started earlier and had deep pockets a good choice but too little too late. Rudi is a good manager but really not a true conservative on too many issues. Romney a flip flopper. When I was young, I saw a video tape of George Wallace standing in a school house door with an ax handle in his hand opposing integration. Later in his life he repented of that position and became a great supporter of integration and equal rights. Was he a flip flopper, of course he was, if you were one of the people still opposed to integration. I don't believe Mitt Romney's personal position on Abortion, gay rights, etc. have ever changed. His record as Govenor supports that. If he has changed a view and become more of a true conservative I appluad him for it. We as Conservatives have got to get past the idea that a real conservative can't win and that the Republic Party has slowly shifted closer to the middle and that has allowed the left to shift farther left. Then there is Ron Paul who is so right on so many issues and yet so devastating and vocally wrong on others that he has no place in the current race. He is an isolationist and yet he and thompson are the only reason Romney did not win Iowa, because Iowa was a love/hate win for Huckabee. The evangelicals turned out big and loved him and everyone else hated him. I sincely pray that someone of Romney conviction still has a chance to represent the conservative position in this great country.

I hope he holds his breath on this long march and he is headed out of town at the time. He is a hypocrit and a slime bucket.If he is a christian then Charles Manson is the Pope. He operated under the umbrella of a christian yet he lies and steals our signs as well as all the dirty push polling and the negative ads. He is a jerk and a slime ball.

Hmmm... Mitt Romney and Condoleeza Rice (sp?). I LIKE! I have great respect for Ms. Rice, and she could neutralize (neuter?) Barak Obama. The only limiting factor would be Southerners and Californians; I don't think this ticket would get many votes in either place.

Ooh, Here's an Idea: Mitt Romney for Prez, and Duncan Hunter for Veep!! I know Duncan (he was my Representative during my last few years in the Navy in San Diego...). Duncan epitomizes the true "Reagan Conservative" values, and ALWAYS HAS. Alas, it's true he's not as well known, and wouldn't "balance" the ticket with the South, as was mentioned before. It's nice to think about it, though.