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Why Should We Be Moral?

15 Jan 2008 01:21 pm

In a seven-thousand word investigation into humanity's moral instincts, Steven Pinker essentially endorses Jonathan Haidt's view that our moral impulses can be grouped into five categories, two "liberal" (harm/care, and fairness/reciprocity) and three "conservative" (ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity). Then, near the close of the essay, he takes up the question of whether any of these impulses ought to be obeyed, and if so, why:

Two features of reality point any rational, self-preserving social agent in a moral direction. And they could provide a benchmark for determining when the judgments of our moral sense are aligned with morality itself.

One is the prevalence of nonzero-sum games. In many arenas of life, two parties are objectively better off if they both act in a nonselfish way than if each of them acts selfishly. You and I are both better off if we share our surpluses, rescue each other’s children in danger and refrain from shooting at each other, compared with hoarding our surpluses while they rot, letting the other’s child drown while we file our nails or feuding like the Hatfields and McCoys. Granted, I might be a bit better off if I acted selfishly at your expense and you played the sucker, but the same is true for you with me, so if each of us tried for these advantages, we’d both end up worse off. Any neutral observer, and you and I if we could talk it over rationally, would have to conclude that the state we should aim for is the one in which we both are unselfish. These spreadsheet projections are not quirks of brain wiring, nor are they dictated by a supernatural power; they are in the nature of things.

The other external support for morality is a feature of rationality itself: that it cannot depend on the egocentric vantage point of the reasoner. If I appeal to you to do anything that affects me — to get off my foot, or tell me the time or not run me over with your car — then I can’t do it in a way that privileges my interests over yours (say, retaining my right to run you over with my car) if I want you to take me seriously. Unless I am Galactic Overlord, I have to state my case in a way that would force me to treat you in kind. I can’t act as if my interests are special just because I’m me and you’re not, any more than I can persuade you that the spot I am standing on is a special place in the universe just because I happen to be standing on it.

So it turns out that the "features of reality" militate in favor of a moral system that emphasizes harm, fairness, and individual rights - which is to say, reality is a liberal! Of course, as Will Wilkinson notes, this argument swipes a few bases. For one thing, the liberal instincts are "rational" only if you assume the liberal premise that the primary goal of human life is material flourishing. (As Will writes: "I simply don’t see how this stands as an adequate reply to someone who says that it is better that millions suffer and/or die for the greater glory of the tribe, or the Prophet, or to prevent the defilement of the blood of the Motherland.") For another, even if you set material flourishing as your highest good, it's still possible to make a case on rational, self-interested grounds for the usefulness of the illiberal impulses, because human nature is such that many people may be happier, longer-lived, more prosperous and so forth in societies shaped at least in part by hierarchy, purity, in-group solidarity, and so forth (what Haidt terms the "beehive" instincts) than in societies that recognize "do as you will, harm no one" as the only moral principle there is. (I make roughly that case here, albeit while repeatedly misspelling Haidt's name.)

Moreover, as a guide to individual moral action - as opposed to a description of the impulses most consonant with the goals of a liberal society - Pinker's argument is incredibly weak stuff. Certainly, in a stable, lawbound society, it’s generally rational to deal fairly with your friends and neighbors and co-workers, because you want them to deal fairly with you. But that "generally" excludes all the hard cases, in which doing the right thing isn’t in a person’s rational self-interest, and those hard cases are the essence of what separates morally-impressive behavior from the reverse. Pinker's "rational actor" calculus makes sense in a landscape of equality, where if your neighbor is going hungry today you could easily be going hungry tomorrow, and in a landscape of transparency, in which your neighbor (or your spouse or friend or business partner) will have perfect knowledge of the wrongs you've done them. But most serious moral dilemmas arrive from power differentials on the one hand - situations in which a stronger person has the opportunity to do something for a weaker person, but at a real cost to themselves and with little chance that they'll suffer if they don't - and secret temptations on the other, where you have a chance to commit a wrong that will be known only to yourself (and God). And Pinker's argument that morality should be based on rational self-interest, and that as a general rule, it's in your rational self-interest to treat people as you'd wish to be treated, tells us nothing about why it's wrong in a particular instance for someone to refrain from cheating on his taxes - or on his wife - if he knows he won't get caught. Or why it's wrong in a particular instance for a Hutu family to deny refuge to their Tutsi neighbors if they know that offering the Tutsis sanctuary will put their own lives at risk.

You can fill in your own example, obviously. The point is that Pinker's argument for why our moral instincts aren't just as arbitrary as, say, the color of the sky or the taste of an apple bails out precisely at the moment when any argument for morality needs to kick in - when doing the "wrong" thing will have no obvious cost, or when doing the "right" thing has the chance to do real, palpable damage to the interests (or life) of the person doing it.

Comments (96)

That's a fair criticism, and I certainly don't care much for Pinker's morality of rational self-interest, but this morality can only be seriously construed as "liberal" in the classical sense. It certainly isn't progressive, in that he does not seem to include any sense that fairness and reciprocity broadly require those who are more fortunate to aid the less fortunate, out of the understanding that we should always act in the way we ourselves would wish to be treated.

I've seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that the moral impulses Haidt classes as conservative ingroup/loyalty are an integral part of liberal humanism, which classes humanity itself as the in-group. It should also be noted that the other so-called conservative moral impulses (respect for authority and sanctity/purity) make a great deal of rational sense for people living in a Hobbesian wasteland full of predators and delicious (but deadly) undercooked pork. The utility of such moral imperatives in a modern liberal society are, naturally, a different matter.

The crux of the matter, as you point out, comes in the situations where an actual sacrifice must be made to commit a moral action-- such as risking one's own life to shelter another's. This is clearly a case where rational self-interest fails to account for our established moral principles. It's also the place where Christian morality was something of a radical departure from the norms in the ancient Mediterranean world.

I gather that you are hinting along the lines of well-worn arguments about the superiority of religious faith to evolutionary accounts of the nature of morality. But cultures evolve, too... and much more rapidly than biology. Moral codes have always evolved and adapted in response to new ideas and changing conditions, and sometimes they require us to do things that are not in our own best interest. But moral restrictions that are not compelling, either rationally or emotionally, tend to be left by the side of the road.

We consider it important for a Hutu to give refuge to his Tutsi neighbors because we feel empathy, and because we ourselves sometimes need refuge. Yet we no longer worry about whether our animal sacrifices are pleasing to the Lord. Nor do most of us worry about whether our pastrami sandwich passes muster with 3000-year-old dietary rules. Nor are most of us concerned about the status of a young woman's hymen on her wedding day. Morality can't be reduced to mere rational self-interest, but it's much harder to make the case for preserving moral traditions that no longer serve any rational purpose at all.

Well, you have to grant the basic utilitarian arguments for any of those you do grant to have a "rational purpose."

I don't quite understand where you're coming from, Ross. Let's say Pinker writes an essay where he says that in general humans attempt to survive and flourish. (Can we all agree on that?) Then you'd try to toss out his argument by saying something like, "Yeah, well if it's evolutionary-driven to survive, then why does a person smoke a cigarette or eat fatty potato chips?" We also have big brains and besides our general drives, yes, we can make short term decisions that go against those drives. (Our big brain came along because of survival drive, anyway, so overall it's been a good thing.)

Well, you have to grant the basic utilitarian arguments for any of those you do grant to have a "rational purpose."

I suppose this is true enough, insofar as modern liberal societies have all (to varying degrees) accepted certain basic utilitarian premises.

But to argue for a radical traditionalism that does not grant individual autonomy as a rational purpose and rejects the utility of self-interest and collective well-being, you're going to have to grapple with some much bigger fish than Stephen Pinker. In fairness, you seem quite willing to do just that.

First I'd recommend everyone check out the discussion going on at theamericanscene.com.

Also, as I have pointed out there, while it is true that certain concepts of utilitarianism have been embraced by Western society, utilitarianism writ large is utterly at odds with basic notions such as individual rights and justice.

Of course you've hit on the obvious problem with the (probably true) scientific or evolutionary account of morality--the maxims so derived only have descriptive authority and not any actual proscriptive force in and of themselves, which easily opens up the way to moral relativity. On the other hand, since the same scientific account asserts morality to be an innate and irrational feature of the human mind, it's not clear how the rational comprehension of the truth of moral relativism would change anyone's fundamental moral instincts. On the other other hand, there are countless human cultures in the world with wildly diverging moral systems, which indicates that environment plays an extremely significant role in determining moral beliefs. Part of that environment surely includes the learned belief that our own moral instincts are the result of the undesigned material process of evolution and are thus basically arbitrary (as opposed to, for example, the learned belief that moral codes are constant and given to us by God). And it's plasuible to argue, as you and many others do, that the spread of the scientific account of morality, as given by Pinker, is going to lead to certain "bad" or "unuseful" social outcomes. On the other other other hand, it's not clear exactly what anybody can do to stop such a thing from happening. It might even be inevitable.

ChrisK: "hen you'd try to toss out his argument by saying something like, "Yeah, well if it's evolutionary-driven to survive, then why does a person smoke a cigarette or eat fatty potato chips?" We also have big brains and besides our general drives, yes, we can make short term decisions that go against those drives."

Did you somehow skip over Ross's entire point? Because his argument is precisely the opposite of what you're claiming it to be.

For the record -- until he gets to his "why trust morality at all? isn't this a problem?" philosophy-lite, Pinker has written a nice article, and I think the science on this is interesting and possibly harmless. That the brain is hardwired toward some of these things is hardly some damning point against traditional morality. Indeed, it is pretty much what you would expect to see.

Why be moral is a hard question; but let's not pretend (as Ross seems to do) that God would be a better answer.

Ignoring commandments is costless - unless there are humans opponents who make it their business to enforce these made-up values. Which takes us back to groups of people policing their preferred set of values.

God being a paper tiger, he is pointless as an answer to the question. And while we do have some real, cant-free answers, they are all approximate only, and they all have holes.

I think if you grant existence + certain attributes (which I'm sure you don't), God works very well as an answer, both in a narrow (and bad) utilitarian sense, and in a larger "this is the end of man" sense.

There seems to be a time-bomb lurking at the bottom of this inquiry if one adheres to the "liberal" values of Haidt's system at the expense of the more universal "conservative" categories.

Take authority, specifically. If our natural moral sense is evolved through the sum total interactions of our ancestors with their environments, a traditionalist who values the authority of the past would have little difficulty treating that moral sense as imperative.

For a person of a certain anti-authoritarian bent, the appeal to an evolved moral sense is just a massive appeal ad populum. If morality is the product of a mostly irrational interaction of organisms with their amoral environment, even liberal morality seems to be the kind of irrational authority disdained by certain liberals.

Most people shirk from that total amoralism, and it's easily reasoned out of consideration: I probably get my urge for food and water from ancestral evolutionary pressures, and I don't bother trying to justify those, so ignoring moral urges seems inconsistent.

(Another option is that our physical environment is not itself amoral, though that requires further argument and is perhaps beyond the bounds of scientific inquiry.)

However, the denigration of authority could still redound back on liberalism if these evolutionary accounts aren't carefully qualified.

@The Marquis

Thunderbolts from the sky would work; virgins in heaven against mothers-in-law in hell would work - but come on, even theists don't believe THAT. Mere existence doesn't cut it.

How is the End of Man argument to work ? I grant existence only to be shocked, shocked to discover non-existence ?!

Human life has worked reasonably well without God being around since the beginning of time. The balance of Good and Evil is what it is because of an evolutionary process. The process throws off enough motivations for Good to win at least some of the time.

Doing the exceptional, hard, moral thing requires that you account for your life not exclusively in terms narrow of bourgeois values - a life as long, painless and (moderately) pleasant as possible. If, however, you make a habit out of other values, then it could, at least in some circumstances, make prefect sense to you to sacrifice all or part of your well-being in a moral cause. You can call that romantic, stupid, or simply irrational. You could also call it a more profound form of rationality, a superior sense of self-interest.

What I don't buy is that such "irrationally rational" choices are is any way dependent on a belief in some deity. People can be plenty unpredictable without.


@Kevin Jones

The qualification is this: We acknowledge that the process is smarter than we are, that norms and institutions may work for reasons that we do not fully understand. We tinker with them at our peril, yet we also have an obligation to correct what, in the light of more recent evidence, seems to merit correction. After all, that's what our predecessors did.

A Burkian/Hayekian conservatism blends very well with a Darwinian account; reactionary ancestor worship doesn't.

Nothing prevents people of an anti-authoritarian mindset from respecting the impressive rigour of the evolutionary process, and the generally high quality of products it produces. A muted and critical respect, for sure, but that's very different from a generalised of loss of all authority.

You could also call it a more profound form of rationality, a superior sense of self-interest.

Sure. You could call it "Moe" or "Robinson Crusoe", if you liked. But I'd like some justification for the calling, which I think if you believe the purely evolutionary version, you can't really come up with.

What I don't buy is that such "irrationally rational" choices are is any way dependent on a belief in some deity. People can be plenty unpredictable without.

Of course! No one's saying that people never make non-local-utilitarian choices without religion. We're saying it's at least difficult, from the more evolution-inspired or materialist approaches, to make this good in quite the way it is if there is a transcendent order.

We should be moral simply because the evidence is compelling that the nature of the universe is moral. The title of Book 1 of C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity is Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe

But I'd like some justification for the calling, which I think if you believe the purely evolutionary version, you can't really come up with.

What I can come with is no better, but also no worse, than what anybody else - including theists - can come up with.

A community could e.g. decide to / evolve to the point where all dealings are centred on a concept of honour. The concept is trained into every member, and they reflexively judge situations in terms of honour. This inclines them to do things that are, in terms of narrow comfort, stupid. But they like it this way. They don't want their lives to be different, they don't want their emotions to incline them in easier directions. They are, on the whole, proud of the way they are. They have even visited other people who live more comfortable, calculating lives, but after thinking it over they still think their honour-centred way of life is better. Who's to say they are wrong ?

We're saying it's at least difficult, from the more evolution-inspired or materialist approaches, to make this good in quite the way it is if there is a transcendent order.

To say that there more to it, that there is this transcendent standard or transcendent arbiter is frankly just rhetoric, and bad rhetoric at that. Pumping up the volume without adding to the substance.

All there is, and all that matters is this: It's people and societies making (constrained) choices; failing or succeeding with these choices; arguing about them; sometimes coming to agreements about them, sometimes not.

Saying that you wouldn't commit an undetectable crime is so much cheap talk. A move in a cheating game. Might even fool some.

Saying that you wouldn't commit an undetectable crime because your belief in God prohibits you to is even smarmier cheap talk. It could be an indicator of trustworthiness. It could also be the ultimate con play.

Agreed, Darwinism shows up the futility of positing excessively objective transcendent values (The same, by the way, goes for truths). So what. What use do they have anyway, except for pompous rhetoric ?

Well, they might be true, which is more important than being of "use" in a rather narrow "I will call everything that doesn't fit my (also based on unprovable assumptions) view mere cheap rhetoric" sense, I think. But it's not very useful to argue with people who "know" that:

All there is, and all that matters is this

As Smullyan, noted this pretty rapidly leads to the place where all arguments become pointless: repeated "that's what YOU say"ing.

We should be moral simply because the evidence is compelling that the nature of the universe is moral.

Excellent example of just the kind of rhetoric I was talking about. Putting on a show of selflessness. Maybe genuine, maybe just a fake to better screw one's co-cheaters.

What does "The nature of the universe is moral" even mean ? That moral behaviour is somehow in line with the universe, and therefore rewarded ? Well, there is compelling evidence for the not so infrequent absence of rewards. Why should I then not simply hew to the rewards, to hell with the universe and its supposed nature ? Because it makes me sound like a bastard, and could lose me friends ? So perhaps I should only think these thoughts and publicly enthuse about how much I'm impressed with the evidence for the moral nature of the universe ...

@The Marquis

In moral argument there are things that are substantive and to point - arguments about the likely consequences of actions (leading in a utilitarian direction) and arguments about risks and uncertainties (leading in the the direction of rights).

And then there are things that are beside the point, mere rhetoric not apt to convince anyone who doesn't already agree. Saying "Our values correspond a transcendent order" or "Our values are underwritten by the creator of the universe" or "These values of mine really do exist and they really do correspond", etc are examples of such vacuousness.

For debates about moral issues to rise above the level of name calling the only way forward is to adopt - just as in professional science - a policy of methodological naturalism, ie at least pretend that only natural causes and effects matter. Even when theists find that hard to do.

In other words, for the game to be fair, one side has to give you the entire field of play, even though we think this is false.

Hell, I'll just steal the ball and kick you where it hurts, if that's how it has to be, and don't see why I should lose any sleep over it, on your terms.

Morality is not professional science, and the annoying attempt to impose the methodologies of science (which are fine and well where they belong -- I am a working scientist myself) on other fields is quite annoying. Saying "well, we have to do things my way, or it'll all be name calling" doesn't particularly change that.

Frankly, utilitarianism has some grounding in "well, even radically opposed people agree on the utility of SOME things, for the most part, in a lot of circumstances" -- while "rights" talk usually is even airier and less grounded than the most straightforward divine command theory.

JD:

it is very revealing that when somebody talks of a "moral order" you interpret it as a "moral arbiter" and start talking about rewards, heaven vs. hell etc.

We are all children of the long wave of western nominalism, I guess!

But seriously, you should try and think of morality not only ethical terms (rules of behavior) but also in onthological/existential terms (the purpose of life, the nature of the good, what it the fulness of human life). Then you will realize that acknowledging a "moral order" may not a rethorical trick, just like the advice not to pour molasses in the fuel tank of your car DOES reflect something about the reality of an internal combustion engine.

Carlo makes a vital point. It seems that JD in the manner of many who are like-minded, including Pinker, is stuck on Euthyphro's dilemma. However, God is not posited as an arbitrary power who comes onto an existing stage to issue authoritarian edicts. Nor is it the case that there's a standard of truth and goodness to which God measures up, in which case, Pinker would be right that the notion of a transcendent being would be irrelevant.

What is the case is that God and goodness are one in the same. Put another way, in a necessarily and essentially moral reality - which Pinker acknowledges - this essential moral reality is what is referred to when we speak of God. Identifying moral reality with God simply moves it from the realm of the abstract and impersonal to the personal. This move is not simply an unjustified leap, but is based on the fact that not only are we moral beings derived from a moral reality, but that we are personal beings as well derived from an ultimately personal reality. In other words, the nature of reality is that it is personal and moral, namely God.

Freddie: "Also, as I have pointed out there, while it is true that certain concepts of utilitarianism have been embraced by Western society, utilitarianism writ large is utterly at odds with basic notions such as individual rights and justice."

No it isn't. This debate has developed quite a bit past the philosophy 101/Bentham version you seem to be referencing. There's actually a pretty well developed utilitarian argument for rights and justice.

The Marquis of Carabas: "I think if you grant existence + certain attributes (which I'm sure you don't), God works very well as an answer, both in a narrow (and bad) utilitarian sense, and in a larger "this is the end of man" sense."

Not in the least. For the former, threats and bribes cannot make something be moral or moral if it is not already. The fact that a God can run the ultimate protection racket (hmmm, nice soul you've got there, shame if anything happened to it!) or the ultimate bribe scheme does not transform arbitrary commands into moral ones.

And the "end of man" logic doesn't work either. Meaning and purpose is not and cannot be an "objective" matter. All meaning is meaning TO someone. All purpose is SOMEONE'S purpose. If God has a purpose for you, that's all well and good, but that doesn't make it YOUR purpose unless you decide it is, anymore than your parent's wish that you become a doctor makes that your purpose. And none of that makes anything moral either.

John Fouad Hanna:"What is the case is that God and goodness are one in the same."

Ah wonderful: you can't offer any actual answer, so you retreat into incoherency. For all the verbosity of this particular theological dodge, isn't it sort of funny that it still never gets around to explain why anything is good or bad (or if God "is" goodness, whatever THAT even means, why God is one way and not another)?

And geez, back to that God "is" goodness... what exactly is going on when God is "ising" goodness? What concept of what happening are you trying to convey with that claim? What the heck could it possibly even mean that a being is an abstract judgment? It's like saying that Buddha isn't just fat, Buddha IS fatness: they are one in the same! Or something.

Bad:

see, you are a nominalist also. What is this God you are talking about? Really. What is it? The big man in the sky?

John Fouad Hanna made a perfectly valid point: at the philosophical level (barring some revelation) the only reasonable way to talk about God is not as a THING (some kind of supernatural entity). It is simply the attribution of personality (by analogy with our experience of being persons) to the totality of reality. More basically, it is also a statement about our experience of THINGS as contingent(which includes contingently good). This is why good philosophical theology is always a "theologia negativa."

I apologize if this sounds pretentious, but it is hopeless to try and discuss these thing in one-paragraph postings. I think the recommended reading on this matters is always E. Gilson, because he gives a clear exposition of all the pre-nominalistic, pre-protestant theological tradition.

No it isn't. This debate has developed quite a bit past the philosophy 101/Bentham version you seem to be referencing. There's actually a pretty well developed utilitarian argument for rights and justice.

The problem is, that argument utterly removes the utilitarianism from utilitarianism. All of the flexibility and common sense of utilitarianism is drained in those approaches (like, say, "rule utilitarianism"), and your left with just another set of rules.

Ross—
Great post, as was the September post to which you linked. Political and cultural issues are not debated often enough with this kind of breadth.

@The Marquis

Saying "well, we have to do things my way, or it'll all be name calling" doesn't particularly change that.

People normally believe that their own preferred set of values is endorsed by, or puts them in line with their own preferred deity. Quelle surprise. It's almost tautological, and not worth asserting. In fact, it's rather annoying to their interlocutors when people do assert it. Pointless, and bad form.

Ask two believers about a moral issue, and you get three answers.
"My God says we should ..."
"No, my God, who is the true God, says ..."
"No, no, my interpretation of the holy book of our God says ..."
None of this will (or should) convince anyone who isn't already part of the tiny subset of believers that the speaker agrees with. None of this reaches out of the tribe.

So unless you are a politician who actually wants the conversation to deteriorate to the level of name calling, discussions of the justification of ethics should studiously avoid any references to a true God, true revelation, true purpose. Idle metaphysics, the lot.

All issues with meat on them can be discussed under a policy of methodological naturalism. And only under such a policy can all tribes converse together.

Morality is not professional science, and the annoying attempt to impose the methodologies of science ... on other fields is quite annoying.

Methodological naturalism is only a policy designed to facilitate conversation. It does not pretend to settle the ontological question of existence. (The success of the policy tends to incline people in a certain direction, but that does not follow logically.)


@Carlo

But seriously, you should try and think of morality not only ethical terms (rules of behavior) but also in onthological/existential terms (the purpose of life, the nature of the good, what it the fulness of human life).

Well, I do. And I say that we can discuss all matters of purpose, existence and fullness in naturalistic terms. Plus we're better off when we do it that way.


@JFH

Nor is it the case that there's a standard of truth and goodness to which God measures up

I entirely agree (even if that should surprise you). Appeals to Plato's truth are just as vacuous as appeals to God.

@Korha

And it's plasuible to argue, as you and many others do, that the spread of the scientific account of morality, as given by Pinker, is going to lead to certain "bad" or "unuseful" social outcomes. On the other other other hand, it's not clear exactly what anybody can do to stop such a thing from happening. It might even be inevitable.

The effect is going to be minimal. It's already priced in. Aside from a very same number of ingenues no one is going to be surprised (Certain people might find it useful to pretend being surprised, but that is not the same as actually being surprised.) What it will do is add a another layer to the multi-layer game of strategic deception that is life. Same old game, slightly faster pace.

JD:
Agreed, Darwinism shows up the futility of positing excessively objective transcendent values (The same, by the way, goes for truths). So what. What use do they have anyway, except for pompous rhetoric?
So, is this statement of yours meant to be objectively true, in which case it is "pompous rhetoric" that contradicts itself and shouldn't be taken seriously? Or is it your own personal subjective "truth", in which case it doesn't apply to me, and shouldn't be taken seriously?

Actually, you've unwittingly illuminated a very basic point that Pinker himself seems not to grasp: Truth is normative, just like morality. Thus, if you posit an explanatory framework according to which normative things like morality are illusory and relative, then truth must also be equally relative within that explanatory framework. This all goes right past Pinker. He loves to proclaim cocksuredly about how Darwinian materialism proves objective norms an illusion, while simulatenously bloviating about how science is the only and ultimate guide to objective truth, not realizing that the former entails the non-existence of the latter. And that's because he makes for a shitty philosopher who should probably have stuck to things he actually knows, like linguistics (except that provocative, faux-philosophizing about things like morality is undoubtedly more lucrative for him).

"Not in the least. For the former, threats and bribes cannot make something be moral or moral if it is not already."

Is this really true? The human mind works largely off of habit. If you start out following rules due to threat or bribe, you may still end up following many of them even after the threats and bribes stop.

Sebastian: what you say is true, but sort of irrelevant. The question is not "how to get people to act in a certain way" but rather "why SHOULD you behave in a certain way" where the should has moral content, and not just answered with "Or else I'll crack open your skull."

Carlo: a nominalist? Sorry, but the discussion hasn't even gotten far enough where I'd have to declare for any particular view on that question. Hanna (and yourself?) need to actually find a coherent expression of your claims before we can set about seeing what philosophical views they require or deny. It's not even clear what usefulness this concept of goodness having a personality has, other than to deflect attention from the continued failure of theism to provide any of the ultimate moral justifications its always complaining that naturalistic accounts fail to do (and often never even claim to do in the first place: most of us are quite happy to simple discuss morality in the context of some shared value which we either all agree upon or don't, but don't claim to be able to justify in any sort of objective sense.)

Carlo:
John Fouad Hanna made a perfectly valid point: at the philosophical level (barring some revelation) the only reasonable way to talk about God is not as a THING (some kind of supernatural entity). It is simply the attribution of personality (by analogy with our experience of being persons) to the totality of reality.

That's a pretty good point, I think. I'd only disagree with the part about attributing personality to the totality of reality. Rather, I'd say that theism is the attribution of consciousness to ultimate, or fundamental reality (which allows that there is derived reality that isn't conscious). That is to say, at bottom, theism is the proposition that the most fundamental reality, from which all other reality is derived, is a consciousness analogous to oneself.

Of course, this entails that consciousness, as a category, cannot be reducible to matter, or an epiphenomenon of matter. That, by the way, is why I think that theists who are materialists about the human mind are so dumb. It's a nonsense position to hold. It makes no sense to say that my mind is really just blind matter, but that God is a Mind that is fundamentally irreducible to matter. My entire concept of mind is based on my own. All other minds I know about are posited by analogy to my experience of my own. If I say that my own is just an epiphenomenon of matter, that it's fundamentally unreal, then I render all talk of a real, autonomous mind entirely vacuous, with no conceptual content that corresponds to it, so that when I use the word "God", I'm not really referring to anything.

Of course, when theistic materialists of mind refer to "God", they really are conceptually referring to something, but that's because they aren't genuine materialists of mind. Conceptually, they understand the distinction between mind and matter. They just don't understand their stated beliefs well enough to realize the contradictions with their actual beliefs.

JD:

forgive me, but to me the belief that one can have a "naturalistic" view of the world while retaining any notion of purpose ranks just a few steps above believing in elves and fairies... But that's OK, I am strongly in favor of religious freedom!

I sentence some subset of this thread's authors to go read Alasdair MacIntyre, starting with AFTER VIRTUE, and at least additionally THREE RIVAL VERSIONS OF MORAL ENQUIRY. Then come back, and don't be quite so obnoxious about how methodological naturalism is the only way to have a conversation (it's actually a good way to make the conversation degrade into a "morality comes from the barrel of a gun"), and all "meaning" is mere rhetorical device. It may be, but if so you're up Nietzsche's creek without a paddle, and pretending to keep your pseudo-Christian-(the Princess Bride "good parts" version where you condescendingly be nice to the powerless but don't have to be faithful to wives or love God or anything inconvenient)-western-liberal morality while cutting its throat at the same time is not going to work.

Bad:

I stated my claims as clearly as I could. Since you found them incoherent and not worth addressing, I conclude that the discussion has reached a dead end and we may as well stop here.

@Deuce

The relativism paradox is not a problem. I (can't and won't speak for Pinker) am only denying Big O Objectivity - naive/primitive philosophical realism.

I am of course not denying distinctions of relative merit between claims. Some are obviously more self-serving than others; some obviously have better evidence speaking for them than others; and so on.

Now, is there a Big A Absolute standard of "relative merit" or "better evidence" ? No, there isn't. In the end, we each of us have take our chances, and live with the consequences of our choices.

The unfelt absence of Big O Objectivity still leaves quite a broad range of topics on which people of good faith can, and do in fact, agree. The value of the scientific method in opposition to other approaches should be one of those topics.

In other words, arguing that theism is false is fine. The arguments that it doesn't provide a reasonable justification for morality as _morality_ rather than as "I will crack your skull if you are bad" implies either a distressing lack of knowledge of the recent or ancient literature or willful dishonesty. It may be a bad explanation because the underpinnings are false, but if you grant both certain properties of God's nature + the existence of revelation (even if you restrict this to "natural theology" and grant the few properties + that nature is in some sense expressive of God's creative power and will) does provide a justification for morality at large. To get the sharper details, you have to additionally buy into a Revelation of a more concrete form, but you can get part of the way without that. None of this works if you have a profound hatred for metaphysics and expressly deny all statements not founded in a narrow empirical verification, but then I think much much much more of what you're saying also vanishes if you adopt that standard. In practice, the true empiricist should be almost silent on almost all matters of human interest.

The value of the scientific method in opposition to other approaches should be one of those topics.

FOR DOING SCIENCE. It's not even terribly useful (strictly taken) for doing mathematics.

It's pretty much useless for things like ordering a polity or being faithful to my wife, which are more pressing concerns to the majority of people who aren't working scientists. It's arguably not even a very useful approach to running a business, depending on how you see it -- and scientists drop a lot of the honesty and rigor when they have to get fed with grant money and so forth, for that matter.

@Carlo

that one can have a "naturalistic" view of the world while retaining any notion of purpose ranks just a few steps above believing in elves and fairies...

That's not what I said. What I did say is that the reasons we give for our purposes should be stated without references to the supernatural/unobservable.

"P is a good definition of purpose because it has worked under these conditions here, and avoids such-and-such well-known pitfalls in life, leads to such-and-such good consequences which in their turn are good because ..."

I'm way out of my depth here in this philosophical discussion. But I've often been struck by a theme that always emerges when apologists for theism attempt to defend their moral calculus in logical terms. That is, such arguments tend to hinge on what I would describe as the utility of the existence of a God-figure who establishes a universal moral code.

The Marquis gives a good example when he says that it's "difficult, from the more evolution-inspired or materialist approaches, to make this good in quite the way it is if there is a transcendent order." The implication here seems to be that religion is a better motivator for non-self-beneficial moral behavior than a materialist approach to understanding our moral impulses. I think this is undoubtedly true.

And as long as the "transcendent moral order" is a relatively benign one that does not include suicide bombing, honor killings, the auto da fe, etc., then one can make a utilitarian argument in favor of maintaining collective belief in a transcendent moral order. And, accordingly, there's a long history of agnostic ruling classes encouraging faith amongst the rabble for the sake of social harmony.

But from a more skeptical vantage point, the fact that benefits and blessings flow from a universe that fears and loves a divine arbiter of morality undercuts the argument that such a divine arbiter necessarily exists. If social harmony stems from shared faith in a transcendent moral order, then it's all too easy to imagine how such a successful moral order could evolve, naturally and atheistically, from primitive individual moral impulses.

If one reads the Bible with a critical eye, one sees evidence of the evolution of the concept of God-- from pantheism to a jealous corporeal God aligned with a specific tribe, to an invisible arbiter of justice with complex behavioral mandates, to a sophisticated trinity fronted by human institution that employs both carrots and sticks and removes the barrier to in-group entry to facilitate recruitment.

But once you turn that critical eye onto the role of God in the moral order, he disappears completely.

But I've often been struck by a theme that always emerges when apologists for theism attempt to defend their moral calculus in logical terms. That is, such arguments tend to hinge on what I would describe as the utility of the existence of a God-figure who establishes a universal moral code.

While I have seen this, it's an unsophisticated argument for theism and doesn't seem to be one that any of the theists in this thread are making. (The Marquis explicitly disavows it.) It seems they are arguing that you cannot, as Pinker would, have it both ways--reason your way to some "correct" moral principles while doing away with any transcendent order. I think they are right. The best you can do is a moral pragmatism much weaker than what Pinker wants.

But from a more skeptical vantage point, the fact that benefits and blessings flow from a universe that fears and loves a divine arbiter of morality undercuts the argument that such a divine arbiter necessarily exists.

I don't see how. It's exactly what you would expect both if theism is merely an evolutionary adaptation, and if it's true, so it doesn't tell us anything either way.

JD

fine, but then that does not address my previous point, that the only way you seemed to imagine a relationship between religion and morality is by having God as some kind of cosmic enforcer, an "arbitrary power" that sets rules of behavior, as John Fouad Hanna correctly out it.

Indeed, when you replace "purpose" by "your purposes" there is no more a question of finding any onthological/existential foundation for morality, since you seems to assume that "your purposes" are arbitrarily chosen by your will and not "given" to you. Unless you believe that "your purposes" are determined by your genes etc., in which case there is some "purpose" but there is no freedom and the whole discussion is moot.

leads to such-and-such good consequences which in their turn are good because ...

Isn't this where you run into problems, though? That "..." has the problems, eh? I mean, you can say "you and I both like X" but what do we do with someone who doesn't like X? We whack him over the head and smugly say "well, he didn't like X. not like we have an argument against that, other than our agreement on liking X, but hey -- look, he's bleeding quite a bit." Serious naturalism/empiricism can't get to an "ought", it can only note an "is."

Now, it might be true -- maybe there are no oughts. But the repeated attempts to stare at nature, damn metaphysics and non-naturalist concepts as nonsense, and still have a "good" that actually means "good", not "I like pie", is not going to work. At least it hasn't so far, convincingly. If you mean that many avowed materialists believe in an "ought" and go about things as if there were one, that's true -- but most people (perhaps for the best) live lives of philosophical incoherence or indifference. In a sense, that sounds like a conservative prescription to not mess around too much with this stuff, since we have no good basis but (for absurd reasons, on your grounds), rather like (as we like pie) the consequences of our evolved and tradition-inspired choices.

LaFollette,

I agree with Brendan -- one would expect theistic morality to be "successful" in this sense whether it was true or not (it would be peculiar if God designed a universe in which conformance with truth was non-beneficial on the whole, no? screwdrivers really do work better as screwdrivers than as hammers, and that would be true for screwdrivers designed or evolved, is a very rough and bad analogy). So it doesn't incline one either way, very strongly.

I am personally, perhaps partly because I'm a moderately honest scientist, inclined to "truth be out, and consequences be darned" and think that if we knew there was no God and no higher order, it would be "best" to cry this from the mountaintops, and expect fire and burning and cruelty to follow if they will. But perhaps if I _actually_ believed in nihilism I'd be less inclined to embrace it than I am, not having to -- it's easy to say "oh, if I were a Christian I'd be a saint."

It's exactly what you would expect both if theism is merely an evolutionary adaptation, and if it's true, so it doesn't tell us anything either way.

That's my point exactly. It undercuts the argument that the divine entity necessarily exists. At some point we split on whether God is a tangible force in the world or a literary device. There's no way to bridge that gap with logic. One either has faith in the unseen or skepticism.

"For one thing, the liberal instincts are "rational" only if you assume the liberal premise that the primary goal of human life is material flourishing."

Unless you think the primary goal of human life is self extinction, then there is no other assumption to make, and to assert that there is one is nothinig but blind ideology.

The natural state of all living things is to grow.

Those behaviors that encourage growth support the natural state. Those things that do not, such as parasites that destroy their hosts, will soon cause their own extinction.

Thus, the GOP in the role of a runaway parasite will soon become extinct. The only way in which the GOP can survive is if it becomes dormant for a period sufficient for the host to become healthy again.

@The Marquis

I ignore the rant and continue with:

"morality comes from the barrel of a gun"

That's a sadly true statement about many times and places throughout history, not the consequence of a particular moral philosophy. Political systems that rely more on unarmed negotiation than violence are rare and fragile achievements. We are blessed to live in one.

Do you really believe that nastiness is kept in check because the nasties tremble in fear of God ? What actually checks nastiness is that it - often - isn't a very good strategy. To take a simple example: Will the company that is nastiest, that tries to screw its customers the most be the most profitable ? No, or only in the very short run. Provided there is a competitive market, and customer have choices, then they will run from the nasty to a nice company with good service, putting the nasty one into bankruptcy.

None of this works if you have a profound hatred for metaphysics and expressly deny all statements not founded in a narrow empirical verification, but then I think much much much more of what you're saying also vanishes if you adopt that standard.
Thanks for asking, but I don't have a profound hatred for metaphysics; I am instead sublimely unconcerned about metaphysics. I am also not an empiricist, and certainly no verificationist (who are actually Big O Objectivists about evidence). I am a radical fallibilist, which for anyone who both thoroughly understands and wholeheartedly accepts the theory of evolution, is pretty much the inevitable philosophy of knowledge. Not a strict logical consequence, but a very strong consilience.

FOR DOING SCIENCE ... It's pretty much useless for things like ordering a polity or being faithful to my wife

Sure. The point was that the superiority of astronomy over astrology has nothing to do with the oppressive fantasy called Big O Objectivity.

LaFollette, I misunderstood you. No disagreement.

The natural state of all living things is to grow.

You could say that, but how do you get from there to saying that we ought to promote this natural state?

There's no way to bridge that gap with logic. One either has faith in the unseen or skepticism.

Well, I don't quite agree. I just think that this particular argument doesn't, at least alone (it's more interesting in a context of other evidence of various kinds), push that hard for theism, on "hah, I'll give you proof" grounds.

"But perhaps if I _actually_ believed in nihilism I'd be less inclined to embrace it than I am, not having to..."

Resorting to trite cliche, one must move through the five stages of grief. When God was declared to be dead, there was denial and rage. Eventually, however, I'd like to think we can move past all the nihilism and backlash and reach the stage of acceptance. There are merits to a story that places God at the center of the universe and urges humility and forgiveness on our part, completely independent of whether we consider the story to be fiction or nonfiction.

Well, I also don't see why I should _care_ that it's the natural state. For that matter, maybe rocks are better than living things. Or not. This is "is", not "ought." I suspect that, in the long run, living things bustle about a while and then are exterminated by the long-term progression of physics, all science fiction to the contrary.

Do you really believe that nastiness is kept in check because the nasties tremble in fear of God ?

I don't, myself, particularly trust that nastiness is or will be kept in check in the very long run, either. It seems, with the right technology, likely to be a very successful strategy, if coordinated well. There might be reasons that won't work, but I wouldn't be too much on them.

No, just a personality tic, but I rather hope if I actually believed "God is dead" or some such nonsense, I'd be wearing black and plotting to acquire large amounts of plutonium. It just seems more fun, and why not?

@Carlo

there is no more a question of finding any onthological/existential foundation for morality

Indeed, there isn't. I consider ontological (no h!) foundations to be distasteful nonsense. That goes generally, even when they aren't theistic. You may believe otherwise, but this isn't terribly radical at least when compared to the daily practice of science.

since you seems to assume that "your purposes" are arbitrarily chosen by your will and not "given" to you.

Chosen yes, but not arbitrarily. Purposes are experiments in living. Not all these experiments are made alike, some are known to fail with much greater regularity than others. Crafting a purpose that will work out is not an exact science, but there do at least exist reservoirs of folk wisdom.
So there is an element of discovery, of a "given" here: finding out which chosen purposes work, which fail. When it comes to that, we all are at the mercy of reality, we have no way of arbitrarily commanding a purpose to succeed.

Is your idea of the ideal society that someone should come along and tell you what to do with your life, from start to finish ? That someone should "give" you a purpose ?

No, just a personality tic, but I rather hope if I actually believed "God is dead" or some such nonsense, I'd be wearing black and plotting to acquire large amounts of plutonium. It just seems more fun, and why not?

But you probably wouldn't. There isn't significant evidence that atheists behave much differently from theists. Certainly they don't in my own experience.

What this means, of course, is that if you want to be really pragmatic about it, none of this discussion matters at all. I want to live in a society bound by certain moral rules. Everyone in this thread does. The discussion is about how we justify enforcing that preference. But, look, we don't need to. We can just enforce it without any justification at all because most people will always agree with us.

Most people, myself and Steven Pinker included, are not satisfied with this solution, however.

@Carlo

that the only way you seemed to imagine a relationship between religion and morality is by having God as some kind of cosmic enforcer, an "arbitrary power" that sets rules of behavior

To be honest, I don't get the "God as totality of reality" idea. What's the effective, pragmatic difference between that and referring to reality simply as reality, without attaching an arbitrary label ?

Not all these experiments are made alike, some are known to fail with much greater regularity than others.

But "fail" assumes there is something to fail. I don't agree with you that the purpose is to accumulate (material goods, happiness, orgasms, what you will). Nor do I think that you and I are gods who each get to magically invent our own definition of fail and have it mean any more than that, yes, I do rather like pie.

Brendan has a point, of course. Reality is what it is, and we'll go on halfway being moral (or not), without "resolving" these disputes.

While I take your points about the necessity of "morality" as an externality, I think you've misread Pinker's intentions. He's primarily describing moral thought, as opposed to proscribing moral thought. There are strong parallels in grammar (which is more in Pinker's line). Is a language's grammar a formula for how one should speak it? Or is it a recipe for how it is spoken? Almost by definition a descriptive explanation cannot serve as a guide for "individual action." Pinker grasps for this in his final paragraphs but ultimately fails -- not because of his bias that morality should be rational, but because rational theories of morality primarily describe only what people do, not what people should.

You provide your own counterexamples ("Pinker's 'rational actor' calculus makes sense in a landscape of equality")...in situations where there is no landscape of equality -- such as Rwanda 1993-- people do in fact behave less "morally," in aggregate. This suggests that, in fact, Pinker's thesis is largely correct.

The upshot is that, if we wish to encourage widespread "moral" behavior (however we define it), we need to construct a society that is rational, transparent, and equality-minded.

JD,

You can't simply define morality as what leads to 'successful' societies. Because we disagree on what 'success' means. If you argue that 'A B and C are good because they contribute to the preservation of society' then you still need to defend the premise that 'society, in its present form, ought to be preserved.' If morality is to have any meaning, then ultimately it has to mean something different than prudence.

I would also think, of course, that the 'beehive' virtues aren't necessarily 'conservative' ones. There have certainly been movements of the Left (from Cromwells 'Republic of the Saints' to the Israeli kibbutzes to countries like Cuba and Vietnam) that emphasized (as they saw it) things like loyalty, purity, and solidarity. 'Illiberal', certainly, but not 'conservative'; it's certainly possible for someone to wish to tear down the existing beehive only in order to build a bigger and better, even more restrictive beehive in its place. Too, one should remember that the existing 'beehives' that conservatives today cherish were often built on the destruction of even older beehives.

The upshot is that, if we wish to encourage widespread "moral" behavior (however we define it), we need to construct a society that is rational, transparent, and equality-minded.

Possibly. But those particular choices are weighted to the "liberal" virtues, and other aspects of society might be important for other moral values.

The irritating thing with Pinker isn't the science stuff, which is interesting, it's that he feels the need to dip his toe in the philosophy (ok, and his NYT-ish kneejerk to just assuming all readers agree that, say, sodomy between consenting folks is morally irrelevant).

Wow, reading all this crap really makes me appreciate the clarity of Pinker's thinking!

@The Marquis

We whack him over the head and smugly say "well, he didn't like X. not like we have an argument against that, other than our agreement on liking X, but hey -- look, he's bleeding quite a bit."

Is that how you like to behave ?

When somebody disagrees with your values, your options are precisely the same as mine. You can try to come to a discursive solution, talking over the arguments and the evidence in order to reach an agreeement. When that fails - and it often will - you can still try to come to a political settlement, under which you agree to disagree with the other side, yet still find a way of living side by side in peace. When that last try also fails then it's war. While you may not want to launch a preemptive strike, at least when you are attacked you'd probably want to defend yourself. So far, no difference between your options and my options in such circumstances.

All I am saying is that it is silly and childish in the extreme, once the discursive resolution has failed, to turn around and go:

Na, nana, na, na, my position is the only really true and good one. The only really, really True and Good one. And my buddy God thinks so, too. Na, nana, na, na.

Serious naturalism/empiricism can't get to an "ought", it can only note an "is."

That's not so. I can't get a metaphyical Ought, but then I don't want to; I think they are silly.
There are, however, many ways in which I can get ordinary, practical oughts. One way would be the duties and responsibilities that I owe to my neighbors, and they to me, under the (implicit) political contract we live under. Another is the duty to myself to make something out of my life, to find a purpose that works out. And there are several more ways to come to practical, non-metaphysical, real-life oughts.

But they're not "oughts" in any real sense. They are your arrogation to yourself of the powers of a God, to decide that contracts are "good" and that you have made "something" or that your purpose "works out."

If you want to talk this way very informally because at heart even pragmatists are not pragmatists, fine. But using them as if you weren't abusing the terms completely here is annoying.

The serial killer can find his purpose that works out, and so can Mohammed Atta. On YOUR terms, other than that _they are not you_, and perhaps (in your circles at least) they are not as popular as you, you don't claim they are wrong. And you are more arrogant about "nah nah nah I'm right and every thing you talk about is nonsense and foolishness and irrelevant to the 'real' world" than most of the theists around here are. I don't have any interest in ruling out practicalities, pragmatisms, utilitarian concerns, and so forth, from our moral discourse. They are important. You, on the other hand, think that everyone of my views should shut the hell up about what we believe reality is like. You want to claim to be high-minded while rigging the game so only your players are allowed on the playing field.

I'll admit that does indeed, in a way Pinker doesn't, incline me to reach for my gun or my rock -- because I frankly don't trust _you_ not to use any power you got to prevent my views from even being aired.

@JD

We whack him over the head and smugly say "well, he didn't like X. not like we have an argument against that, other than our agreement on liking X, but hey -- look, he's bleeding quite a bit."

Is that how you like to behave ?

...

All I am saying is that it is silly and childish in the extreme, once the discursive resolution has failed, to turn around and go:

Na, nana, na, na, my position is the only really true and good one. The only really, really True and Good one.

But look: the position that you are deriding as extreme and childish is in fact the way the state functions every minute of every day. Someone commits a crime, the state uses violence against him--arrests him, locks him up. There is no discourse about it, and it implicitly assumes that the moral standard that says stealing and killing are wrong is in fact more True and Good than the criminal's, which says they are not.

Are you willing to take you reasoning to its logical conclusion? If so you are much more radical than I think you are.

And to anticipate any argument that the state is just carrying out the will of the majority--that assumes a moral premise that it is better for the will of the majority in this case to prevail over that of the criminal's. (It also gets you in trouble in other ways, making it difficult to posit universal rights.)

Sorry, I'm behind, technical issues with the site.

@The Marquis - CTD

In a sense, that sounds like a conservative prescription to not mess around too much with this stuff

For a good idea of what an atheist US would look like go travelling around Europe (or Australia) with open eyes. It's not nearly as bad as many American Christians like to think.

Many of the people who lean in the libertarian direction that makes the US approach to economic policy an outlier are already highly secular. They would still be around even after God left the building. For this reason, and reasons of history, even a post-Christian US would still likely remain distinctive.

So while there are social changes that carry risks, I don't really see it for this one. After all, theism doesn't track anything real (you don't agree, I know, but bear with me), it's just used as a convenient excuse to justify whatever people would like to have justified anyway. As such, it can simply fall away without much ado.

I'd be wearing black and plotting to acquire large amounts of plutonium.

Be my guest. I hope the FBI busts your ass. I'd happily inform on you.

But they're not "oughts" in any real sense.
Suit yourself, they are real enough for me.

Ad hominem No 1

... and so can Mohammed Atta.

What's so fascinating to you about getting me to state the blatantly obvious: "Mohammed Atta was wrong. And everyone who had the chance would have had every right to stop him."

Ad hominem No 2

You, on the other hand, think that everyone of my views should shut the hell up about what we believe reality is like.

No, I don't and I will stop replying if one more ad hominem - Strike 3 - comes my way.

I'm actually a free-speech extremist. You have, in my book, every bloody right to air your views. You just do not have any right to have them listened to or respected in any particular way.

For a good idea of what an atheist US would look like go travelling around Europe (or Australia) with open eyes. It's not nearly as bad as many American Christians like to think.

Europe is what an America that had been increasingly secular (though not overwhelmingly _atheist_ except in some circles, last I looked) for a while might look like, in some aspects. But Europe is getting by largely on a heritage that atheism didn't buy, and didn't even particularly pay into the pot for: rights and the welfare state are largely derived from Christian moral principles, or at least moral realist principles. It's arrogant (but common) to assume we have any idea what a truly atheist society that had been so long enough to stop running off the fumes of theism and more traditionalist morality would look like. I agree that it might not look like 1984, but I'm not at all sure it wouldn't look more like Brave New World than Europe now. Other than a silly optimism, I don't know why you'd be very sure about it either.

Sorry to have assumed you were in the direction of being oppressive here -- many of those who talk about these issues with the same dismissive tone are not free-speech extremists.

Be my guest. I hope the FBI busts your ass. I'd happily inform on you.

Oh, I'd happily inform on me, too.

Marqis: "It may be a bad explanation because the underpinnings are false, but if you grant both certain properties of God's nature + the existence of revelation (even if you restrict this to "natural theology" and grant the few properties + that nature is in some sense expressive of God's creative power and will) does provide a justification for morality at large."

Sorry, but no. There is no there there. Imagine any set of facts you want, any set of properties you want for God. I'm not stopping you, or for the sake of argument denying them. Nor am I chucking out metaphysics. All I'm doing is asking you to put your cards on the table and show what this grand justification scheme is that you've been bragging about.

Because I think you're bluffing.

I mean, take this little quip: "They are your arrogation to yourself of the powers of a God"

If you are going to make such a claim, I'd really like to know exactly what powers those are which you claim God has and JD doesn't. What specifically is God doing, or what nature is he exercising, when he, say, makes rape wrong? What capacity is being employed?

Saying JD doesn't rightly have them is premature: you have to first explain what those powers ARE in the first place, and THEN we can look at JD and figure out whether or not he has them.

If you can't so that, then for all you know, JD does have "them."

In fact, I don't think you can win that argument against me either. If I were to employ the sort of philosophical methods you seem to think are legit, then I could always assert that JD does have them, just in a "supernatural" way. How are you going to show that I'm wrong?

JD --

You're partly right -- though "ad hominem" isn't quite what I was doing there. The second one would be perfectly fair if I was right in my guess about your views. I still don't quite trust you (it's easy to be a free speech extremist when your own views are the ones likely to be persecuted, harder when you are in the driver's seat -- true for all of us), because you aren't operating from some Mill-ish "let the man speak, he might have something to say" view, but a "I KNOW he has nothing to say, and will ridicule and be as impolite as possible to his speech, but for abstract reasons I'll encourage it." The first wasn't ad hominem at all -- I still think it is true that while I'm certain you would stop Atta, and have no problem with anyone stopping him, I don't think you have an actual ARGUMENT, other than "no, I'm fine with stopping him" that what he did was _wrong_. Not to your liking? Sure. Not to my liking? Sure. But you're abusing the term "wrong" in usual semi-positivist fashion, I think.

What specifically is God doing, or what nature is he exercising, when he, say, makes rape wrong? What capacity is being employed?

I'm not sure this is the best and most precise answer, but it might be useful to look at the notion of a _Creator_, as a starting point, though perhaps that God _IS_ in the absolute sense, while other things lack this fact of self-subsistence. All act, no potential, to use something like Aristotle's terms. None of those are things that I can plausibly attribute to JD, unless he's a much finer fellow than I think (and I'm ready to grant he's a fine chap).

Sorry, but a wordy "duh, it's obvious, no need to explain" isn't going to cut it. What is going on when rape is wrong? Why is it wrong, according to what you are describing. Why does something being a Creator give it the power to make things wrong or not?

Sorry, but explaining morality by simply defining God to have the otherwise unexplained inherent absolute capacity to "explain morality" is like explaining the function of locomotives by saying that they work via élan locomotif!

"None of those are things that I can plausibly attribute to JD"

Oh, and why not? How would you go about determining whether or not they apply to JD?

Come now, Bad. If you really want to get into this, you're going to have to go read some books, not expect to get it explained in blog posts. I even gave some pointers -- have you read MacIntyre? I think, as to the attributes I explained, that you would not really need much help not attributing them to JD, any more than you would a verification method for determining that JD is not, in fact, the planet Saturn.

That is, if your point is that you're not sure if JD created the universe from nothing, that's... interesting.

@Brendan

I'm having problems to see what you are trying to articulate, so my answer probably won't satisfy you. But I'll try.

the position that you are deriding as extreme and childish is in fact the way the state functions every minute of every day.

Minor point upfront: "Childish in the extreme" is not the same as "extreme and childish"; I just meant "extremely childish".

Let's say that two people argue a point, in good faith. They exhaust themselves, range very widely, yet even after a week of arguing they still can't find an agreement. Both insist on their initial position. They give up on ever agreeing. What is then the use of one of them saying to the other: "But my position is the only true one." Is there an expressive difference between saying that (in this situation) and saying "You're an idiot" ?

What I wish for is that people would just state their evidence, their arguments, and then simply shut up.

Please say: "Here's the evidence for my position. I'll explain it to you."

Please then don't go on to say: "And beside that that my position is also True."

The case of the criminal is different. We had an (implicit) deal with him. He chose to break it. So we whack him. Simple.

It gets trickier when we start debating whether the crime we convicted him for should actually be treated as a crime. Possession of pot, sodomy, adultery ? Then we'd have to look at the particulars, all the gritty detail.

And to anticipate any argument that the state is just carrying out the will of the majority

Wasn't going to say that anyway. What I might say is this: The laws adopted in what we think of as a well-functioning democracy - rule of law, minority rights, free speech, ... - do have a certain legitimacy because in a very, very rough and ready way, the legislative process manages to sort out bills that have merit, that make sense, that produce fairness and preserve liberty (Some wish!). We all know that the process is catastrophically imperfect. And therefore the legitimacy of any particular law is never absolute, and subject to the severest criticism. Proven fitness in the Darwinian process of law making gets a law some points in the legitimacy stakes, but not by itself a full complement.

Look, there is the real-existing social contract. And then there are proposals for reform that you and I and everyone's uncle can come up with and try to have implemented. And beyond that there is nothing worth talking about, no ideal Platonic society up in the clouds.

Are you willing to take you reasoning to its logical conclusion? I should think so.

If so you are much more radical than I think you are.

It's just that I don't subscribe to a correspondence theory of truth. I believe the word "true" shouldn't be used to imply notions of correspondence. That's not very radical these days.

And beyond that there is nothing worth talking about, no ideal Platonic society up in the clouds.

At least out of context (in context you may want it to mean some things I don't agree with), I agree with that statement. Indeed, that statement is (in my view) one of the core principles of conservatism, as a political philosophy, an antipathy to utopias and attempts at realizing the perfect in the political order.

Not that there's "nothing worth talking about" -- political possibilities and reforms are, I'd say, among the least interesting things for free men and women to talk about -- but in this context of politics, reference to a Kingdom of the Saints, to the Withering of the State, or the like, are not useful.

@The Marquis

I don't think you have an actual ARGUMENT, other than "no, I'm fine with stopping him" that what he did was _wrong_.

So let me unpack what I mean to assert when I say "Atta was wrong."

I do not mean to claim correspondence to some absolute moral fact.

What I do mean to say is something like this:

"To the best of my evidence and knowledge, gut feelings and head thoughts combined, I recommend that we consider Atta to be wrong, and treat him accordingly. And, Ladies and Gentlemen, this was an easy case, so while I admit my fallibility on this score, and the abstract possibility that I might come to change my mind, I am about as certain about this as I can be."

Now this is long-winded. So ordinarily I will just abbreviate that to "Atta was wrong."

In other words, I want to usurp the locution "wrong" for this usage instead of the correspondence usage.

And yes, I am darn sure I do want to say only "recommend". Moreover, I'd prefer if others also adopted the habit of saying "recommend", instead of getting insufferably pompous with True-talk.

@Hector

If morality is to have any meaning, then ultimately it has to mean something different than prudence.

Morality means radically fallible prudence. Ordinary, everyday prudence does not consider the possibility that my entire worldview might be wrong, does not allow for a conversion-like radical upheaval in everything I believe. Morality means prudently managing radical uncertainty about everything. The prudence of Economic Man is only a small subset of that.

Morality means prudently managing radical uncertainty about everything.

So you say. I think that's an insane definition of morality, even if in many practical cases (Atta, a thief, etc.) it works out much the same.

Why don't you just state your evidence that morality means that, and then be quiet, instead of saying that it "means" that in some absolute capital T way.

I mean, a bit more Humpty Dumpty humility, please.

Re: It's just that I don't subscribe to a correspondence theory of truth. I believe the word "true" shouldn't be used to imply notions of correspondence.

Good heavens? Then that can 'true' possibly mean?

It seems to be that 'true' means corresponding to the fundamental reality of existence. By definition. In matters of morality no less than in matters of fact.

JD,

On what _grounds_ can you say that Atta was wrong? Your saying that depends on axioms and values no less than my saying that, say, prostitution is wrong.

Re:The laws adopted in what we think of as a well-functioning democracy - rule of law, minority rights, free speech, ... - do have a certain legitimacy because in a very, very rough and ready way, the legislative process manages to sort out bills that have merit, that make sense, that produce fairness and preserve liberty (Some wish!).

But don't you see that your idea of 'merit', what makes 'sense', and what are desirable goals for society (prosperity and liberty) are in themselves, value judgments. I don't share your goals or your vision of the ideal society any more than you share _my_ ultimate objectives.

And yes, I do think that all existing societies do need to be judged by the standard of an ideal Platonic society in the clouds, based on some conception of Man's Final End. And such societies need to be reformed or overthrown if they fail to match up to the ideal. Which means that your liberal society, too, will need to fall by the wayside in its time, just as slavery and polygamy fell by the wayside in theirs.

Sorry, but giving me reading assignments is a pretty lame evasion. I'm not asking to have it "explained" to me: I've heard the explanations already, and I'm here arguing that they are vacuous. And you, apparently, have nothing to offer in defense of them other than studied avoidance.

"I think, as to the attributes I explained, that you would not really need much help not attributing them to JD, any more than you would a verification method for determining that JD is not, in fact, the planet Saturn."

Except that you didn't list any attributes that directly explained anything. All you did was associate some general capacities with God, and those not even particularly fundamental (since to do that, you'd have to actually say more about what they are). Unfortunately for you, because those capacities are allegedly supernatural, they are nothing like the question of whether someone is Saturn or not: that is something we can all see and verify. You have no actual way to object to me saying that JD has them because:

1) you can produce no actual description of what they functionally are or do, or how we can know what they do
2) JD could easily be posited to have a "supernatural" component beyond what you see of him physically (in fact, you'd probably agree with me that he does, just not the particular capacities that I happen to make up!)

If this is unsatisfying to you, blame your own philosophical rules, not me for using them in a non-approved way.

"That is, if your point is that you're not sure if JD created the universe from nothing, that's... interesting."

No, it's irrelevant. Creating a universe does not make it ok or not ok to rape a woman within that universe. (Of course, if we're talking about the Christian God, then it's not even particularly theologically clear that is wrong at all).

JD:

OK, that's a serious question, and trying to answer in this format is truly hopeless. Before I make a somewhat pathetic attempt, I want to stress that your question finally touches the crux of the matter: for me (from the standpoint of philosophy) saying that there is a God is not a statement about a supernatural being "on top" of reality, but a statement about "what is real about reality." This is why God is not a "cosmic regulator" as in your view. And it is also why, barring revelation, there is really nothing we can say about God besides that God exists.

Now your question: why do we need to postulate any such thing? Answer: because reality as we experience it in all the different "things" is not real enough. It is real to a degree, but at closer inspection it also lacks reality, and the reality it has it does not give to itself.

What I just stated for me is a matter of experience. If it does not resonate at all with your own experience of life, then I have nothing else to say, and we can put this discussion to rest at this point.

JD,

Let's say that two people argue a point, in good faith. They exhaust themselves, range very widely, yet even after a week of arguing they still can't find an agreement. Both insist on their initial position. They give up on ever agreeing. What is then the use of one of them saying to the other: "But my position is the only true one." Is there an expressive difference between saying that (in this situation) and saying "You're an idiot"

What I wish for is that people would just state their evidence, their arguments, and then simply shut up.

Please say: "Here's the evidence for my position. I'll explain it to you."

Please then don't go on to say: "And beside that that my position is also True."

If we acknowledge that we're fallible we shouldn't have any problem recognizing that other people can come to different conclusions even though they aren't idiots. I'm not sure what you're saying anyway. If you haven't come to an agreement, then by definition you do in fact believe that your position is better than the other person's position (you may or may not believe it's "the only true one"--more on that later). Are you just saying it's impolite to say so?

The case of the criminal is different. We had an (implicit) deal with him. He chose to break it. So we whack him. Simple.

All you've done is made the moral premise I started with (killing is wrong) contingent on another one (breaking deals is wrong). You haven't resolved anything. Why are we allowed to enter into implicit deals? Why is anyone bound by them? Why can we use violence to enforce them?

It gets trickier when we start debating whether the crime we convicted him for should actually be treated as a crime. Possession of pot, sodomy, adultery ? Then we'd have to look at the particulars, all the gritty detail.

Yes. But what criteria would we use, and what would make those criteria better than any other criteria?

The laws adopted in what we think of as a well-functioning democracy - rule of law, minority rights, free speech, ... - do have a certain legitimacy because in a very, very rough and ready way, the legislative process manages to sort out bills that have merit, that make sense, that produce fairness and preserve liberty (Some wish!).

This is circular. You are saying that the system is legitimate because it produces results that "have merit, that make sense, that produce fairness and preserve liberty." What, exactly, is merit? Why is it good for laws to "make sense"? What does it mean for them to be fair, and why should they be? Why should liberty be preserved?

Look, there is the real-existing social contract. And then there are proposals for reform that you and I and everyone's uncle can come up with and try to have implemented. And beyond that there is nothing worth talking about, no ideal Platonic society up in the clouds.

...

It's just that I don't subscribe to a correspondence theory of truth. I believe the word "true" shouldn't be used to imply notions of correspondence. That's not very radical these days.

This seems to be at the root of our disagreement. Whether or not you think there's a "Platonic society up in the clouds," or believe in a correspondence theory of truth, is not really at issue. Some of your interlocutors in this thread may believe in those things, but their conclusions don't depend on them; they only need to believe that some positions are better than other ones. You seem to believe this too, but you haven't explained on what basis you believe it.

I think you're trying to conflate empirical truths about the world with moral truths to a degree that is not really possible. Einstein's theory of gravity is inherently a better theory than Newton's, because it allows us to predict the behavior of the world we can observe more accurately. We can decide, of course, whether we think that's a worthwhile goal, but the world is going to go on existing and behaving the same way whether we care or not. That is, it's not up to us to decide whether we like Einstein's theory better than Newton's; the conditions of the observable world only allow one choice.

There are, as far as I can see, no equivalent external constraints on our moral choices that we can immediately observe. The commenters who are talking about a transcendent framework, or God, are trying to find such constraints. You don't have any, so the most you can say is that you like a certain idea of morality, in the way that you like your favorite food. Admittedly, this does not present a big practical problem for anyone in America in 2008, so maybe it's no big deal.

This thread is very long and old so I'm done.

Damnit, I think I've made some glaring typographical error in every single comment I've posted in this thread. The first italic tag should of course end after Please then don't go on to say: "And beside that that my position is also True."

"And it is also why, barring revelation, there is really nothing we can say about God besides that God exists."

If you aren't willing to explain what this means, however, it's exactly equivalent to not saying anything at all.

Eh. I doubt you've really read the relevant stuff -- you've probably read polemics against it, but I see no evidence you even have a clue who MacIntyre, say, is.

My "defenses" aren't going to be very interesting compared to the actual books on the topic. Reality is complicated -- you wouldn't expect to understand thermodynamics from someone's web posts, I'm not sure why you (and so many) think that, say, theology and philosophy are bunk if some non-expert commenting on a blog can't summarize and offer up all defenses.

From my point of view, you guys have done a lousy job of presenting your side (I think I could do it better myself, and I can point to six odd authors who certainly do). So? That doesn't make your side wrong, it just makes you bad spokesmen.

Life is short, and this is pointless even for one of these arguments. We probably have to little common ground here to even begin to discuss anything, anyway.

@The Marquis

Why don't you just state your evidence that morality means that, and then be quiet, instead of saying that it "means" that in some absolute capital T way.

I'm not in capital T mode. I am merely recommending (for a long list of reasons) that we use "true" to mean what I suggested above.

I don't share your goals or your vision of the ideal society any more than you share _my_ ultimate objectives.
That people deeply disagree about values is a given. The question is: What do we do that ?

@Hector

Good heavens? Then that (you meant "what", right ?) can 'true' possibly mean?

You have to separate the concept of truth from illusory demands of finality (of having achieved correspondence, having finally locked into Reality).

Replace truth as finality of correspondence with a currently best justified claim.

@Carlo

That's a position I can accept.

The idea of God the enforcer only came up because of Ross's original question of how we justify acts of moral heroism.

@Brendan

A farewell post.

Are you just saying it's impolite to say so ?

The practical meaning of meaning of truth is exhausted by a presentation of evidence. Once that that is done we can only do two things: shrug our shoulders or search for better, more convincing evidence. Of course everybody believes their own position to be superior; that goes without saying. The impoliteness, the pretentious claptrap comes into it when people claim that their own presentations are not merely presentations but representations; whereas their opponents' presentations are mere, well, presentations.

All you've done is made the moral premise I started with (killing is wrong) contingent on another one (breaking deals is wrong). You haven't resolved anything. Why are we allowed to enter into implicit deals? Why is anyone bound by them? Why can we use violence to enforce them?

Sorry, I missed the "Killing is wrong" premise. For why Killing is wrong I can give you a ton of stories, similarly to the story I gave you about democracy. The stories wouldn't surprise you at all, they are just common sense. But they are, when you're honest with yourself, all we have.

Yes. But what criteria would we use, and what would make those criteria better than any other criteria ?

The are no capital F Foundations, no capital A Axioms at rock-bottom from which we could deduce all the consequences we want. It's a holistic picture. You shuttle back and forth between theories and evidence, criteria and cases.

The final criterion is to keep all the criteria up in the air and try to make the best sense of the whole that you can. The key skill is juggling, not running deductions.

This is circular. You are saying that the system is legitimate because it produces results that "have merit, that make sense, that produce fairness and preserve liberty." What, exactly, is merit? Why is it good for laws to "make sense"? What does it mean for them to be fair, and why should they be? Why should liberty be preserved?

There is no Archimedean point outside, so a (benign) form of circularity is inevitable.

It's Neurath's image of our belief set as a boat out a sea: We are able to exchange one plank at a time without going down, but not all planks at the same time. We have to stand on some planks in order to be able to examine the others. We can shift our stance, but we always have to stand on some plank.

What ultimately informs all value judgement is trying to shape our boat so that it has the least achievable risk of drowning or smashing against a cliff. That's the notion into which you can unpack moral terms.

Whether or not you think there's a "Platonic society up in the clouds," or believe in a correspondence theory of truth, is not really at issue. Some of your interlocutors in this thread may believe in those things, but their conclusions don't depend on them; they only need to believe that some positions are better than other ones.

Oh yes, it is very much the issue, and their conclusions do depend on it. They define "better" as either being in correspondence, or being a closer approximation to correspondence; I define " better" as looking like a less risky bet.

I think you're trying to conflate empirical truths about the world with moral truths to a degree that is not really possible.

Experiments in living aren't that drastically different from experiments in physics. And you're right, I do not believe that there are hard and fast boundaries between evaluative and factual claims, or between scientific and non-scientific claims.

... but the world is going to go on existing and behaving the same way whether we care or not.

The world will do what does but our idea of what it will do is never in final correspondence.

The commenters who are talking about a transcendent framework, or God, are trying to find such constraints. You don't have any, so the most you can say is that you like a certain idea of morality, in the way that you like your favorite food.

They are just whistling in the wind, obnoxiously pretending that what they have and can get at is fundamentally better or different than what they make me come up with.

When it comes to actually finding something - as opposed to dumbly positing it - they are in exactly the same boat as I am. The ultimate arbiter of moral constructions is experience, of what works in the broadest sense, of what we think we are best of betting on.

When it comes to actually finding something - as opposed to dumbly positing it - they are in exactly the same boat as I am.

But, of course, most serious theists who argue about these things are theists on the basis of some experience and reasoning, not blind fideists. We're simply willing to go that extra step and call some experience final -- we cannot imagine it will be contradicted, because we additionally assume a principle of non-contradiction, a single reality with which we interact, not a shifting sea of sand.

And, of course, if we are right about those metaphysical claims -- if there is a God who is something like we say -- then we are in quite different boats, no? Clearly you don't think that's true, or even plausible, but don't you admit that _if_ we were right, the boats would be quite different?

You also never answered my point that your "oh, come on, we know it'll work fine, look at Europe" is relying on assuming that a society where the general public has a radically skeptical, pragmatic view rooted in long-standing atheism (or at least indifference to metaphysical claims) would look like contemporary Europe, which is a recently Christian society with a relatively small number of people who are remotely committed to something like the view you espouse.

Bad:

that's what I did (as well as I can in such a space) in the next paragraph. If it does not make sense to you, fine, I have nothing to add. If it is just too succinct, I recommend again Gilson (e.g. his book on Aquinas). Thanks for the discussion.

Re: You also never answered my point that your "oh, come on, we know it'll work fine, look at Europe" is relying on assuming that a society where the general public has a radically skeptical, pragmatic view rooted in long-standing atheism (or at least indifference to metaphysical claims) would look like contemporary Europe, which is a recently Christian society with a relatively small number of people who are remotely committed to something like the view you espouse.

Marquis,

Indeed. It's worth pointing out that a number of the smaller European countries (Greece, Poland, Portugal, and Ireland) appear to be a bit more religious than the United States. While it's true that the bigger European countries have significantly fewer religious believers (many of them are vaguely 'spiritualist', and not really atheist) one might also add that modern European values are largely shaped by their Christian inheritance- whether in its Christian-Left or Christian-Democratic forms.

The Swedish social-democratic state, for example, isn't in essence a matter of institutions, it's a matter of values. It works because the Swedes, to a much greater extent than most other countries, really do feel that people are responsible for one another, that no one should rise too high above his fellows, that people are fundamentally members of a society first and individuals only second. These values have a very old heritage in Scandinavia, and for most of its history that was an explicitly Christian heritage. If those shared values were ever to disappear, then so would the institutions that they support. And in the absence of a Christian framework it's hard to argue why those values are 'better' than any others.

The one example of a society which has, for thousands of years, maintained a proverbially pragmatic, anti-metaphysical, and (at least relatively) secular worldview is, of course, China. The home of water torture, infanticide, foot binding, and all the rest.

Clearly you don't think that's true, or even plausible, but don't you admit that _if_ we were right, the boats would be quite different?

It can't be right because it isn't coherent (Asking "_if_ it were right", with "right" in your sense, is not a coherent question: What kind of truth could the truth of a correspondence theory of truth correspond to ?) All that droning on about ABSOLUTE OBJECTIVE CERTAIN TRUTH is merely a stump speech, rhetorical noise, technicolour nonsense on stilts.

On your second point - the viability of atheistic societies in historically Christian countries - I only say this: let's just wait and see how it pans out. (Christianity is great at inducing guilt in people; induced guilt about abandoning a religion is not a good reason for staying with it.)

These values have a very old heritage in Scandinavia, and for most of its history that was an explicitly Christian heritage.

How about Germanic heritage ? The time from the arrival of the first missionaries to dechristianisation was a mere 10 centuries or so, a blink in historical time.

one might also add that modern European values are largely shaped by their Christian inheritance- whether in its Christian-Left or Christian-Democratic forms.

The word ‘Christian’ in a party’s name does not a Christian party make. Have you ever listened to what these politicians actually say ? Christian democracy was an ideology of postwar reconstruction, and remains today only as a hollow shell. Look at its implosion in Italy.

There is a true Christian Right party e.g. in the Netherlands. It barely squeaks above the 4% threshold necessary for parliament representation. That's more like the real level of relevance.

These values have a very old heritage in Scandinavia, and for most of its history that was an explicitly Christian heritage.

How about Germanic heritage ? The time from the arrival of the first missionaries to dechristianisation was a mere 10 centuries or so, a blink in historical time.

Besides, you're making a category mistake: Genealogy – explaining from where a belief is descended – is not the same as explaining its viability, or lack of, today.

The one example of a society which has, for thousands of years, maintained a proverbially pragmatic, anti-metaphysical, and (at least relatively) secular worldview is, of course, China.

Your hurting your own argument here. With the exception of a brief interlude during the past 300 years or so, China has consistently enjoyed the status of being the world's largest economy. Hardly a basket case, no ? What is more, the Western takeoff only happened after the grip of Christianity had already weakened considerably.

The home of water torture, infanticide, foot binding, and all the rest.

As opposed to the home of religious warfare in crusades and civil wars, autodafes, homophobia, and all the rest ? Neither the Spanish Inquisition nor the US Government would ever resort to torture, now would they ?

P.S. Missed this good point made by you

... relying on assuming that a society where the general public has a radically skeptical, pragmatic view rooted in long-standing atheism (or at least indifference to metaphysical claims) would look like contemporary Europe

The radically sceptical approach agrees quite well with a temperament that is already wide-spread; it just gives a little more structure to that temperament. The results are therefore going to be quite a lot more conservative with respect to already current practice than on philosophical paper.

P.P.S

Last post. Unless directly asked another question, I'll leave the last word to whoever desires it

we additionally assume a principle of non-contradiction, a single reality with which we interact, not a shifting sea of sand.

Non-contradiction properly applies to (sets of) sentences, not chunks of reality. The only thing that might shift, and with the exception of a few rare jumps only at a glacial pace, is our picture of the world, our set of beliefs about the world stated in the form of sentences; that doesn’t make the world shifty.

Asserting the existence of a single, true reality to which our ideas must correspond has no useful literal meaning (depending, as it does, on the correspondence theory), but it does have effective meanings.

It can in effect be a way of saying:

a)Look, we can’t both be 100% right about this. Let’s talk it through and try and find an agreement, or even better, some sort of synthesis that we can both agree to be superior to our starting positions.
b)An injunction to think of perfectibility, to suggest that there might be a chance to improve on our current set of beliefs.
c)A sceptical warning, that even a unanimously held consensus can be horribly wrong.
d)Possibly more.

Language is brilliant; even literally meaningless mumblings can be used pragmatically to get things done.

We're simply willing to go that extra step and call some experience final.

Exactly, pure voluntarism to dumbly posit. People may put on their hat as marketing strategists and claim that their presentations are representations of reality, but that doesn’t make them so. People may claim that they have achieved a perfect match to reality, but that doesn’t make their claims perfect. People may claim that they are on a path of straight line convergence to reality, but that doesn’t make it so.

This spirit of shouting Basta ! is starting to become counter-cultural: Very few businesses today are saying that their products have reached a state of Platonic perfection, and could not be improved upon; that there are no radical new products to discovered; that their modes of production should never undergo a radical overhaul.

running off the fumes of theism and more traditionalist morality

You mights then also fear that Catholicism today is running off the fumes of a more real, earlier Catholicism, the old-time religion before the popes came round, very late and reluctantly in each case, to state that the market economy might not be such a bad idea, that democracy might not be such a bad idea, that anti-semitism might be bad idea, that holding Mass in a language whose words the congregations actually understand might be a good idea, …

To which leaden past do you want us to hark back to ?

You don't have any, so the most you can say is that you like a certain idea of morality, in the way that you like your favorite food.

“Merely” a taste as opposed to what ? As opposed to their tastes dressed up in badly fitting metaphysical clothes ? And don’t sniff at tastes, there is rhyme and reason to them. Talk to a gourmet or fashionista. Moreover, ethics is a lot more social than choosing your diner special. The need for interaction, people’s daily dependence on others, makes the constraints much, much tighter.

Admittedly, this does not present a big practical problem for anyone in America in 2008, so maybe it's no big deal.

American Christianity is so deeply inculturated that it isn’t that big a deal anymore. Even nominally conservative people have gone far in adopting practices of toleration and pluralism that only make sense on strongly fallibilistic assumptions.

The show – evolution – must go on, must it not ?

With the exception of a brief interlude during the past 300 years or so, China has consistently enjoyed the status of being the world's largest economy. Hardly a basket case, no

I just came back to look and noticed this -- I think our differences are more than philosophy alone, if China's not really interestingly different from societies with a Christian heritage, to JD's views, because it has a big market. Beneath the skepticism lies (unsurprisingly, really) an indifference to totalitarianism or at least (now) oligarchic despotism and political murder if it's not a _Christian_ regime.

I guess when you throw out the correspondence theory of truth, and absolutes, sometimes you end up saying "okey dokey" to any nastiness, so long as it isn't your own culture's. I'll stick with Hector, or even MoeLarryAndJesus, who I bet isn't quite so indifferent sounding.