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What Is It About Mormonism?

07 Jan 2008 04:22 pm

Writing on Mormonism in this Sunday's Times Magazine, Noah Feldman becomes about the eighteen thousandth writer to explain that non-Mormon Christians only find the LDS faith weird and implausible because its revelation is so recent. Even though "there is nothing inherently less plausible about God’s revealing himself to an upstate New York farmer in the early years of the Republic than to the pharaoh’s changeling grandson in ancient Egypt," Feldman writes, for most people "antiquity breeds authenticity," because "events in the distant past, we tend to think, occurred in sacred, mythic time."

To which Alan Jacobs retorts:

But this only makes sense under the assumption that the only reason people disbelieve Mormonism is its recency. It seems not to occur to Feldman to ask whether all propositions of all religions are equally plausible or implausible. Is “antiquity” really the only factor at work here? If only a handful were attracted to the teachings of David Koresh, is the recency of those teachings a sufficient explanation? Such an assumption is simplistic at best. Let me be clear: I do not mean to say that Mormon beliefs are anything like the crackpot tenets of Koresh; I am just claiming that if you want to understand why certain beliefs are not widely respected or admired, you might want to know something besides how old they are. You might want to inquire into the actual content of those beliefs.

Moreover, if the Average Joe takes Judaism seriously than Mormonism — a proposition that may or may not be true — “antiquity” isn’t the reason. If that were the case, then the Average Joe would find the worship of Ashteroth, Baal, and Isis and Osiris as plausible as that of Yahweh. Insofar as people-in-general concede respect to Judaism, that’s not because of Judaism’s “antiquity” but because of its continuity. If we ever have Mormons who have been saying the same prayers to the same God for three thousand years or so, then those Mormons will almost certainly get a hell of a lot more respect than today’s Latter-Day Saints do.

Well said. I don't want to dismiss the "antiquity equals plausibility" argument, since it obviously contains an element of truth, but it tends to function as a conversation-stopper in intellectual discourse these days - as an easy out for secular writers who assume that all religions are equally implausible, or at least equally beyond rational examination, and who don't want to wade into the weeds of history, archaeology and comparative theology to see whether it might be otherwise. In reality, though, the major plausibility issue facing Mormonism isn't when and where and how long ago the events crucial to the religion are supposed to have taken place, but whether the Mormon account of those events feels persuasive as a historical narrative. This is an issue that faces every major religion that claims God intervenes in history; Mormonism's problem - and a major reason why its tenets are often "dismissed as ridiculous" (as Feldman puts it) by mainstream Christians - is that the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to stack up nearly as well in this regard as, say, the Gospel According to Saint Matthew.

Obviously, this historical-plausibility question doesn't matter to every believer, but it does matter (as it should) to an awful lot of people, which is why so much ink has been spilled by foes of Christian orthodoxy, from Elaine Pagels to Dan Brown, arguing from the historical record (as they see it) that the events of the Gospels didn't happen the way the Gospels said they did. The idea that it should be otherwise - that it's "indefensible," as Feldman puts it, to suggest that Roman Catholicism is more likely to be true than Mormonism because Saint Peter really existed whereas the Nephites probably didn't - only makes sense if you assume the premises of a materialistic (or fideistic) worldview. Which seems like a bad way to set about analyzing the beliefs of people who don't assume that worldview, which is what Feldman's essay is supposed to be doing.

Comments (133)

three points

1) as feldman notes, part of the problem is the perception by many evangelicals that mormonism is a heresy, not that it is a made up religion. specifically, it asserts it is authentically christian while contradicting some of the axioms which evangelical (and other) christians assert serve as boundary conditions of what christianity is (e.g., nicene creed & athanasian formula).

2) as you note, the "problem" for some secularists (e.g., me) is that not only does mormonism make an assertion about god which we reject, its ancillary details in the scriptures are totally implausible to us (the historical narrative part). the hebrew bibles are imperfect historical documents, as all texts are, but they reflect reality. the book of mormon seems a forgery to me. that being said, i actually find the mormon concept of god to be less incoherent and implausible than the standard mainstream christian view. so perhaps i should reexamine the weight i assign various parameters.

3) some secularists seem to like the antiquity argument because they're taking the montaigne position that the irrationalities of our society are simply something we accept, but deviant irrationalities are something we should reject. the only problem i have with this is that secularists tend to give a pass at non-western religions, some of which are also relatively recent in origin(though make less grand supernatural claims, e.g., sikhism and the bahai religion). so i think a bizarre form of cultural relativism is at work here: mormons are "WASPs" with weird religious beliefs so they should be mocked. if they were brown-skinned people with weird religious beliefs they'd probably have "different ways of knowing" or some other crap. their combination of exoticism and familiarity is simply hard to slot into the appropriate mental schema most americans are equipped with.

so feldman has a point.

Mr. Felmans article seem like a condensed version of the disscussion at the pew forum on religion

http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=148
Mormonism and Politics: Are They Compatible?

Have a read. Would it smack of plagerism, if not for the injection of clever biased opinion, a standard for the Alantic?
Vis-a-vis does my zeitgeist predispose me to be hypersensitve as a young mormon?

The idea that it should be otherwise - that it's "indefensible," as Feldman puts it, to suggest that Roman Catholicism is more likely to be true than Mormonism because Saint Peter really existed whereas the Nephites probably didn't - only makes sense if you assume the premises of a materialistic (or fideistic) worldview. Which seems like a bad way to set about analyzing the beliefs of people who don't assume that worldview, which is what Feldman's essay is supposed to be doing.

But if you don't accept materialism then what does "plausibility" have to do with anything?
If you're not willing to be limitted by our understanding of the physical world and its laws, then can anything be implausible?

I mean once people start rising from the dead three days after they died from crucifiction and stab to the gutt, isn't just about anything else fair game?

Cut from another page:

The essay is just pitiful, the author apparently lacking any of awareness of the history and beliefs which make it so fascinating.Part of the problem with the essay is that it doesn't hit any of the slow moving targets. There are some magnificent whoppers in Mormon history which--amazingly--do not appear in the essay. Among them are the known fabrications of fraudulent texts by Joseph Smith, which were later proven to be Egyptian funerary papyri. (Smith called this the "Book of Abraham"). The list goes on and on. Here's another: my personal favorite is the Kinderhook hoax (I may have misspelled that) in which Joseph Smith was presented a meaningless Egyptian "text" scribbled by some scheming anti-Mormons. Smith declared it a part of the restored Word of God until the hoax was exposed. Then there are the unlovely facts of Joseph Smith's life involving the many teenage girls he pressured for sex on pain of damnation. And, like I said, it keeps going and going. There are many more stories like the ones above. See Richard Ostling's magnificent work "Mormon America" for all the history.

This book, a collection of all sorts of colorful historical data, is relied upon by most professional scholars, despite its non-professional standing and anti-Mormon animus. It is quite a read. Enjoy.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm

I mostly agree with Razib, but with the following exceptions:

1) I'm no expert, but in my experience the Nicene Creed is as foreign to many evangelicals as the Kama Sutra. The Evangelical opposition to the LDS Church seems to be more of a visceral assessment of heresy than a theological one.

2) For me, it's not so much a matter of whether the Hebrew Bible and the Gospel reflect reality (not so much) but that they reflect authenticity. These are the actual, earnest beliefs of a primitive society that have been handed down for so many generations as to become an inextricable part of the heritage of our modern world. One can be skeptical about their factual nature while still believing that they contain historical and cultural value. Whereas the Book of Mormon, to me, gives off an exceptionally strong whiff of bad snake oil.

3) The lack of exoticism associated with upstate New York surely contributes to the particularly rough treatment that Mormons get from Secularists. But is this really an irrational response? I'm not a creature of faith, but it certainly seems to require an element of mystery. It's easier for me to comprehend faith in miraculous events that took place in antiquity or in little-known foreign lands. It's much harder to comprehend faith in a highly suspicious set of "miracles" that took place in a country we all know from firsthand experience to be full of con men and dodgy salesmen.

But if you don't accept materialism then what does "plausibility" have to do with anything?
If you're not willing to be limitted by our understanding of the physical world and its laws, then can anything be implausible?

I mean once people start rising from the dead three days after they died from crucifiction and stab to the gutt, isn't just about anything else fair game?
Posted by WillieStyle

Not an unfair point, but it seems to me a religion gains plausibility if parts of its narrative can be corraborated with objective archaeological evidence. Archaeologists are continually amazed to discover the depth of historical accuracy in the Bible in its mention of obscure communities and rulers later determined to have existed when new archaeolgical evidence is unearthed. On the other hand, I don't even know many Mormons who believe that archaelogists will one day uncover evidence of a vast 2,000-year-old Jewish classical civilization in North America. That doesn't mean any Christian can prove the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth, but it does strengthen the claims of the faith to know there really is a Bethlehem, or that there are records independent of scripture that corraborate that there really was a young Jewish rabbi who went by the name of Jesus Christ living in Judea in the first century.

One other thing I would add, I believe the LDS church is missing an opportunity here. Rather than decry that Governor Romney must justify how his religion impacts his public policy actions -- something Catholic candidates have to do pretty much every time they run for office (and frankly something Romney himself has invited with his public piety) -- it's a shame we aren't seeing more articles that actually explain LDS theology so that they are not so mysterious and so we can have a dialogue based on better understanding of everyone's beliefs.

Is it fair to ask Romney:

When you become a god, what kind of universe will you create?

The truth is in some ways the opposite of what Feldman and others write. It is not the recentness of Mormonism that makes most regard it as obviously inauthentic, but the claims it makes about antiquity. As Ross notes and as Razib notes in his point #2 above, the Book of Mormon puts forth the existence of peoples and nations that almost certainly did not exist. In contrast, while secularly-minded scholars would question many of the specific historical claims made by the Bible, no one disputes that there really was a people called the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews or that in the time of Christ, there really was a Roman Empire that ruled Judea, Samaria, and Galilee and that used crucifixion as a method of execution. It is Smith's claims about antiquity, not his claims about the nineteenth century, that fatally undermine his overall assertions.

I slightly disagree with James.

There is zero immediate evidence that anything in the Old Testament happened. We have a lot more "evidence" so to speak for the events narrated in the New Testament, except that all its primary documents are written by believers.

So the problems do include ridiculous historical claims made by the Book of Mormon.

But even more rationally indefensible are the actual DOCTRINES promulgated by Mormons. Take just one example: the idea that the gods are exalted human beings; that the gods were once human in a past life and that we too will become gods and procreate whole universes. These are claims that must be theologically stated in a coherent way. Yet they cannot. Polytheism is completely unreasonable.

Scott, I'm not sure you're wrong, but isn't part of that archeology finding an obscure town or region and slapping a Biblical name on it because it kinda sorta fits the location. Also, there was never even in Christianity's version of itself a young Jewish rabbi who went by the name of Jesus Christ. Christ, or Chrestos is a Greek title that nobody thinks Jesus actually used. There MAY have been a Yeshua or something like that wandering around Galilee saying some very odd things, but its not clear what he actually preached, and those "contemporary" records always turn out to be not so contemporary. I actually suspect that you are right that Christianity is more plausible in its surrounding details, but you're getting distracted by some mythical history.

How exactly is polytheism "completely unreasonable," or do you mean just within a Mormon framework?

Half the reason it seems weird is because people keep misrepresenting and distorting the facts about Mormonism.

Take the little "Kinderhook" example from Rob above. Most of his assertions rely on the accounts of one William Clayton. Clayton's account is full of exaggerations and outright mistakes in retelling the events. Clayton has been pretty-much discredited as a reliable source of the facts in this situation.

The Kinderhook plates were shown to be forgeries, presented to Joseph Smith as a trap. Unfortunately for the conspirators, Joseph never took them up on it. Note that people waited until ten years after Joseph's death to start yelling about how Joe had been duped. Convenient that Joseph was no longer around to offer a contradiction. Why the wait?

There are valid places to criticize Mormonism. But this ain't one of them. And we Mormons are continually bombarded with - pardon my french - little chickensh*t issues like this that have dubious historic merit, and contribute little to the conversation other than to introduce a sneering tone.

Apparently the internet is not lacking in people who think that "your mother wears army boots" is a valid form of debate.
And that's really all I get from half the anti-Mormon material I encounter on the internet - a sneering tone.

1) I'm no expert, but in my experience the Nicene Creed is as foreign to many evangelicals as the Kama Sutra. The Evangelical opposition to the LDS Church seems to be more of a visceral assessment of heresy than a theological one.

agreed. i've experienced baptist friends mocking the hindu idea that gods became incarnated into human flesh ;-)

There is zero immediate evidence that anything in the Old Testament happened.

? this is obviously false, right? i mean, there was a cyrus? the maccabees were real, right? the assyrians?

These are claims that must be theologically stated in a coherent way. Yet they cannot. Polytheism is completely unreasonable.

hm. that's strange, i think mormon views are much more coherent because they're grounded in common sense! (of a sort) the greek garb of traditional christian theology seems to render it totally insulated from genuine analysis.

Polybius, razib,

Rob, in the polytheism remark, is simply outing himself as another religious zealot who thinks his brand of myth-telling is better than everyone else's.

Don't get me wrong, I happen to think the same thing about my religion. I just have the sense not to use such arguments in a manifestly secular forum.

"Most of his assertions rely on the accounts of one William Clayton. Clayton's account is full of exaggerations and outright mistakes in retelling the events. Clayton has been pretty-much discredited as a reliable source of the facts in this situation."

Whether or not Clayton got some small details wrong doesn't discount the most important part of his journal entry:

"I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship - The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, page 117)

It'd be unwise to overlook the fact that Clayton was:

* Smith's private secretary
* perhaps Smith's most trusted confidant
* officiator for Smith's secret plural wedding at Smith's residence in the morning
* at Smith's residence for much of the day
* in Smith's company for much of the day
* house sitting for Smith later that day while Joseph was on a date with Flora Woodworth
* at Smith's residence when he examined the fake ancient artifacts
* at Smith's residence when he wrote his journal entry

On this issue Don Bradley writes:

"William Clayton did not acquire his information about Joseph and the Kinderhook plates from the rumor mill. Clayton was Joseph's personal secretary, and a man as much in his confidence as any at the time. He dined with Joseph at the Mansion House, examined the plates while there, and traced one of them on the reverse of the page where he recorded his journal entry for the day, including this regarding the plates, 'Brother Joseph has translated a portion of them, and says they contain....'"

I invite you to look at the sources I have compiled here on this issue. The truth is that the Kinderhook plates issue continues to be a part of a much larger package of things that historically call into question the integrity of Joseph Smith.

So where's the translation then Aaron? The evidence points to an attempted frontier practical joke that never came to fruition because Joseph never played along. I'm not sure what you think the Clayton quote actually establishes. If you want to read more on the subject, here you go

But like I said these are silly little issues that have only marginal relevance to Mormonism's supposed value or legitimacy.

I thought Mr. Douthat had sworn off making ignorant assertions about the historical plausibility of Mormonism's truth claims? Ah, well.

The fact that Mitt Romney's candidacy has all of us sitting around arguing about the plausibility of Mormonism seems like evidence that the implausibility of Mormonism is a problem for his campaign.

Also, where do you get off placing Elaine Pagels in the same category as Dan Brown? Ms. Pagels is a bloody good historian (or are you going to now claim that the Nag Hammadi scrolls don't exist?) who has done excellent scholarly work as to the beginnings of Christianity. Dan Brown is just a hack writer.

Ack, I meant that nothing in the story of Exodus has been proven. My fault.

In time, the Book of Mormon will come to be recognized by Mormon believers as a book of spiritual insight and uplift. This is mostly fine; and the most that can be hoped for by LDS believers. I hope they come to avail themselves of this option. I hope this so that they might move into the ambit of Christianity and make real contributions to it. But Mormons have a good deal of spiritual anguish ahead of them if they keep insisting that it is a record of actual events.

From a Christian point of view, Richard Newhaus' well-known essay, "Is Mormonism Christian" stands as the most thoughtful and insightful things on the issue. It is required reading on the subject.

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2550#mormonism

It isn't so much that polytheism per se is unreasonable. I don't agree with the beliefs of polytheistic Hindus, Buddhists, Animists or whoever else, but I don't go around trying to poke fun at their beliefs.
The specific thing that strikes me as silly about Mormonism is that they hold that their god is material, that he occupies a specific abode in space (Kolab) and that man can become a god. The idea that God is material is one that is so absurd that as far as I know no one has ever claimed it before- not the Hindus, not the Zoroastrians, not the Buddhists, not the Animists, not the heretic Christians. It violates the terms of the cosmological proof of the existence of God, for one thing. The cosmological proof shows that the creator of the world could have been many things- God, the Devil, a demon, an angel, a team of angels are all reasonable ideas- but the one thing the creator could _not_ have been is a material being, since that gets us into the problem of infinite regress. Who created that material being? The cosmological argument demands a cause of the material universe which is not himself material, which Mormonism signally fails to provide.

One simply cannot compare the Christian miracles (the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the healing of the lepers) with Mormon "miracles" like the angel giving Joseph Smith the magic sunglasses. None of the Apostle's contemporaries denied the fact that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph. It would have been easy for the Jewish authorities in the first century to consult Roman trial records and dig up the body of Jesus, or to obtain testimony concerning Joseph and Mary having intercourse, or to debunk the stories of Jesus curing lepers and blind people, etc. The fact that mysteriously, none of these records that would have disproven the myth of Jesus ever turned up, indicates that Jesus is actually the myth made fact, and that the miracles surrounding His life actually happened.

On the contrary, the story about the magic sunglasses has NO reason to back it up.

Mormon teaching declares that indigenous Americans are descended from two Jewish groups who arrived prior to the time of Christ. Church founder Joseph Smith wrote: 'He [Moroni] told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham.' (Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Diary 1835-1836, pg. 76). This claim has continuously been taught in various LDS scriptures and taught from the pulpit by church leaders. Please note, this is a claim of historical fact, not faith.

If Romney accepts his church’s teaching; he must reject all the empirical evidence accumulated by respected scholars who study ancient America from the disciplines of archeology, anthropology, linguistics, DNA, etc. and who firmly declare Asia is the source of indigenous American origins. There is no evidence supporting the claim of Jewish ancestry of any Native American individual or group and voluminous evidence debunking it. Charles Mann in his book 1491 gives an excellent overview of current scholarship regarding ancient American people and cultures. He discusses ‘lost tribe’ theories and dismisses the proponents of such as the “blind leading the blind”.

“It came as no surprise to most scientists to learn that the DNA of living indigenous Americans was most homologous with the DNA of Asians. Well before the structure of DNA had been determined, the Asian source had been accepted through the steady accumulation of over a century's worth of research from many disciplines. It was, and still is, widely accepted that the first waves of colonization occurred around or before 14,000 years ago from Siberia by way of the Bering Strait.” (Losing a Lost Tribe, p. 73).


Maintaining willful ignorance by rejecting relevant evidence from credible sources because it contradicts already held conclusions is legitimate cause for concern and has already led to the deaths of too many soldiers as well as the loss of respect for American leadership.

This is not about true or false faith. Faith by it’s nature is not provable or unprovable. Faith can do many positive things such as provide comfort in difficult times or guidance during moral dilemmas. Faith, however, cannot alter facts.

The cosmological argument demands a cause of the material universe which is not himself material, which Mormonism signally fails to provide.

speaking as an atheist, i find it refreshing that mormons don't fixate on such philosophical conceits. the 'cosmological proof' to an unbeliever is so much platonic word-play, much about nothing (i don't pretend to have ultimate answers, but i am frank about my ignorance instead of obscuring it with fancy terminology). i've seen mormons, unsophisticated as some of them are, make these same sorts of assertions about mainstream christian philosophy which draws deeply from greek concepts, and i share the concerns and perspectives. granted, i do agree as an empirical matter that mormonism does not provide the philosophical depth that older religious traditions have had time to develop, but most humans are too stupid to understand systematic philosophy anyway. the oxygen that mormonism provides, a personal god, community, ritual and ethical guidance, is certainly sustenance enough for the vast majority of humans who would never make pretense to plumbing the ultimate questions. IOW, some mormons would probably assert that 'it's not a bug, it's a feature.'

In time, the Book of Mormon will come to be recognized by Mormon believers as a book of spiritual insight and uplift.

the reorganized church of latter day saints has pretty much gone that way. they now call themselves the community of christ and have converged upon mainline protestantism.

caedmon,

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The Book of Mormon people are not Jewish.

Lehi was from Ephraim and Ishamael's family was from Manasseh. Not Judah. So announcing that there isn't any "Jewish" DNA in Native Americans is really beside the point.

Hector, why exactly is infinite regress so impossible?

No more impossible than some beginning out of nothing, like the rest of Christianity claims.

caedmon, the last time i brought up these issues the more intelligent mormons who showed up on these boards engaged in a lot of exegesis to make it hard to falsify the BOM claims. to be short it about, it seems that they tended to assume that terms like 'wheat' should not be taken too literally, and also cranked down the jewish migration quantitatively so much that it would be genetically undetected. the main issue is that i do think that epidemiology puts an upper cap on how many eurasians can appear with massive changes in the genetic defenses of native americans from occurring.

Whether it's historical fiction or science fiction, it's still fiction.

Giving religious truth claims credibility simply because this or that holy book bears some resemblance to reality is rather generous. Actually, it's unbelievably stupid.

Lehi was from Ephraim and Ishamael's family was from Manasseh. Not Judah. So announcing that there isn't any "Jewish" DNA in Native Americans is really beside the point.

well, new world genetic lineages are pretty distinctive. any old world lineages will show up pretty quickly as a 'long branch' on a phylogeny. so though you're technically correct, the thrust of the criticism is real. if you're going to preserve the idea of settlement/migration from the middle east 2-3 thousand years BP the most parsimonious avenue from a genetic perspective is to reduce the numbers A LOT. the main issue is that eurasian pathogens and eurasian disease genes would have likely exploded way more than a simple ancestral quanta. to give a specific example malaria defenses have been spreading into indigenous peoples in the guyanas from africans and others with recent settlement and small amounts of intermarriage.

Hector, why exactly is infinite regress so impossible?

No more impossible than some beginning out of nothing, like the rest of Christianity claims.

but of course these objection to philosophical arguments get us nowhere. like a lot of fluffy verbal 'logic' your acceptance or rejection of the premises and chain of propositions is strongly conditioned by your priors.

Ross writes: "(T)he major plausibility issue facing Mormonism isn't when and where and how long ago the events crucial to the religion are supposed to have taken place, but whether the Mormon account of those events feels persuasive as a historical narrative. This is an issue that faces every major religion that claims God intervenes in history; Mormonism's problem - and a major reason why its tenets are often "dismissed as ridiculous" (as Feldman puts it) by mainstream Christians - is that the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to stack up nearly as well in this regard as, say, the Gospel According to Saint Matthew."

If you read Matthew 27:51-53, you'll find a zombie invasion of Jerusalem taking place after Jesus's death. There is nothing particularly plausible about this, which is why zombie movies are categorized as fiction rather than documentaries.

Ross is, of course, Christian, and so of course he views his own religion as plausible. If the Book of Mormon featured Indian zombies having a picnic at the Grand Canyon he'd say it was implausible, but the Indian zombie Canyon picnic is no more implausible than any number of things he believes.

Christianity when new was converting a rapidly growing fraction of the Roman Empire away from the "shrouded in antiquity" classical pagan gods at the moment when Constantine saw which way the wind was blowing and jumped on the bandwagon. Why? Because Christianity was, all things considered, a better religion.

Seth,

I'm not sure if I can convince you why infinite regress is impossible. Suffice it to say that it seems, intuitively, to me to be logically impossible. Infinite regress does not yield the resolution that thought demands. That very logical impossibility is part of why I believe in God in the first place (although I have other reasons as well grounded in experience and not in reason).

Let me turn the question around- how is believing in a material God different than believing in no God at all? How is the Mormon god different from Francis Crick's absurd hypothesis that we were put here on earth by intelligent alien species. For me, being an immaterial and wholly spiritual intelligence is part of the very definition of God.

Mormonism, as I understand it, also preaches that God was once a man who became a god because he lived a good life. But the whole difference between us and God is that we can choose to be good, but God is good by nature. It is impossible to imagine a world in which God is not perfectly good. Therefore, to speak of God choosing to be good and becoming a god, is illogical. Either God was always God, or He never shall be. This violates not only the cosmological, but also the ontological proof of God which states that He is a necessarily existing being (i.e. that He could never 'come into' existence had He not been there from the beginning.)

I hope these have helped convince you why I think that Mormonisms is illogical.

Moe,

Do you not understand the difference between a zombie and a resurrected body? A zombie, in the traditional Haitian definition, is a resurrected being with a deformed and mutilated soul. Those who were resurrected on Good Friday, had their souls back complete and whole, in the same way as Lazarus did. Anyway, why is it that nobody seriously challenged the 'zombie invasion of Jerusalem' until over a millennium later? The miracles were widely accepted at the time even by those who were not orthodox Christians.

razib quotes and writes: "There is zero immediate evidence that anything in the Old Testament happened.

? this is obviously false, right? i mean, there was a cyrus? the maccabees were real, right? the assyrians?"

New York City is real, and so are New Yorkers, but the fact that both appear constantly in Marvel comic books does not indicate that Spider-man or the Fantastic Four ever "happened."

I'm constantly surprised I have to point this sort of thing out to people who are old enough to read and write.

Hector, there isn't a single sentence in your comment above that isn't dependent on your wholly unprovable truth claims about your god. It's a house of cards, and you know it, but as always you simply take it as the one and only true fact in the universe. It reminds me of Andrew Sullivan taking on Sam Harris and simply stating that god is by definition the creator of the universe, ergo god created the universe. Brilliant.

To answer your question, the difference between believing in god and not believing in god is that the former is a total waste of time whereas the latter wastes no time at all.

Hector replies: "Do you not understand the difference between a zombie and a resurrected body? A zombie, in the traditional Haitian definition, is a resurrected being with a deformed and mutilated soul. Those who were resurrected on Good Friday, had their souls back complete and whole, in the same way as Lazarus did. Anyway, why is it that nobody seriously challenged the 'zombie invasion of Jerusalem' until over a millennium later? The miracles were widely accepted at the time even by those who were not orthodox Christians."

Apparently they weren't accepted by the Jews who remained Jews, Hec. And who exactly would bother "challenging" this crap, anyway? There's nothing to "challenge," since they're just magical claims. People challenged them by not believing them. The process hasn't changed any.

As for zombies, you need to update your definition and allow for some more serene, stylish zombies. We're also told that Jesus had a big, gaping, horrific wound after his resurrection, so I guess someone screwed up somehow, because that sure seems zombie-like to me.

Actually, Tinisoli, I believe I made it clear that I am not trying to prove to anyone's satisfaction that God created the universe, or whatever. hell, maybe He delegated it to a team of angels and they bungled the job. I personally believe that the heavens and the earth were created through the power of God, but I believe that as a matter of faith, not trying to prove it to you. what I am arguing is that SOMEBODY created the universe, and that Being was perforce not material.

My argument is with the Mormons who appear to hold a vision of God that is indistinguishable from Francis Crick's tall tale about the aliens in spaceship who created life on earth.

Your presumptive belief in freedom and tolerance is as much a matter of faith as my belief that Jesus Christ was the son of God. And no, I don't think that my belief in Christ wastes any time at all. Who was it who said, "I believe in Christ as I believe in the morning sun, not just because I can see Him but because by His light I can see everything else."

Moe,

The Jews who denied Christ claimed that His miracles were done by the power of the devil. They didn't deny that the miracles happened.

Anyway, you haven't answered my question. No one for over a thousand years- orthodox Christians, Christian heretics, Gnostics, Jews, pagan Romans, Zoroastrians, or Muslims- seriously challenged the idea that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph. Sure, they made up silly claims like He was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier or whatever, but _no one_ said He was the son of Joseph. Why not, Moe? Between believing that He was the son of God by a virgin Mother, and believing that He was the illegitimate child of a Roman, I know which seems more convincing.

what I am arguing is that SOMEBODY created the universe, and that Being was perforce not material.

And your evidence for this is what, exactly? Oh wait... You can't get something from nothing? Is that it?

My argument is with the Mormons who appear to hold a vision of God that is indistinguishable from Francis Crick's tall tale about the aliens in spaceship who created life on earth.

It's also indistinguishable from your own beliefs about the resurrection, except in the particulars of the zombies and the other fictional characters. They all rely on magic and there's no evidence that any of them actually occurred. Different details, but otherwise the same magic tale, kind of like Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. That you take your magic story more seriously than you take the Mormons' is simply your choice. But it's no more valid than the LDS nonsense just because your fairy tale has been around longer and people therefore have had more time to cobble together explanations for all the inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies.

Your presumptive belief in freedom and tolerance is as much a matter of faith as my belief that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

No, it's not. I understand that my appreciation of freedom and tolerance comes from natural, cultural, and logical origins, all of which emerged over time and ended up in me almost entirely by sheer luck. There's actually something logical about the golden rule, but instead of realizing that and considering how such a rule could evolve (long before primates), you simply credit your magic man and that's that. Your faith is based on the absence of evidence; my faiths are based on the presence of a growing abundance of evidence.

Christianity when new was converting a rapidly growing fraction of the Roman Empire away from the "shrouded in antiquity" classical pagan gods at the moment when Constantine saw which way the wind was blowing and jumped on the bandwagon.

i think this is wrong. as a point of point the aristocracy was overwhelmingly pagan until the late 4th century. the 'intellgensia' was also overwhelmingly pagan (philosophers at constantine's court were embarrassed by his association with the de classe mystery religion). the military was also disproportionately pagan, in part because so many barbarians were brought into it (germans) during the 4th century (in the early 5th century a ban on pagans in office had to be revoked because generals and centurions wouldn't renounce their religion). until the 380s there were subsides to pagan temples, and the emperor retained pagan religious titles (though only symbolically) until gratian's reign in the late 4th century. books like The Making of a Christian Aristocracy: Social and Religious Change in the Western Roman Empire document the favoritism that the christian emperors from constantine on employed so as to increase the proportion of their co-religionists in high offices until they attained majority in the last decades of the 4th century.

there are two extreme narratives about the rise of christianity. a) that was a bottom up tsunami which swallowed the empire, or b) that imperial fiat was the sole reason for the victory of the religion. both are way too simplistic.

Hector,
You claim that nobody has "seriously" challenged the idea that Jesus wasn't Joseph's biological son...
I suppose the people who get to determine what "serious" means are the people who are most invested in the idea of Jesus not being Joseph's son, right? Or is it just you, Hector? What must someone do in order to be "serious"?
But even if this were true, it doesn't amount to evidence that Jesus was borne of a virgin. I could say that there haven't been serious challenges to the idea that the Sun is the god Helios, but that wouldn't mean that the Sun is a god.

I'm constantly surprised I have to point this sort of thing out to people who are old enough to read and write.

you should take some reading comprehension courses yourself. since i stated i was an secularist in the first comment i don't really believe in all the supernatural stuff. unless you are stupid enough imply that cyrus and that maccabees are only attested in the hewbrew bible.

My argument is with the Mormons who appear to hold a vision of God that is indistinguishable from Francis Crick's tall tale about the aliens in spaceship who created life on earth.

well, at least mormons have something to be indistinguishable about. i can't make sense of the whereof you speak.


Tinisoli,


What is your explanations of the visions of St. Joan of Arc? There are only four possible explanations- mania, mendacity, malice, or mystical vision. Your problem is that psychologists have done a psychological analysis of St. Joan based on trial records from the 15th century, and have concluded that she suffered from no known mental disease, and showed none of the symptoms of mental illness. Moreover, one merely needs to look at the trial records to know that she lacked the psychological sophistication to lie. To me, the conclusion seems clear that she was inspired either by God or by the Devil. Her personal morality seems to militate against diabolic inspiration. How do you explain it?

Hector writes: "The Jews who denied Christ claimed that His miracles were done by the power of the devil. They didn't deny that the miracles happened."

Who says they didn't, Hector? And who says they were "done by the power of the devil"? Your problem is that you believe what your propagandists tell you, and they've been at it for a very long time.

"Anyway, you haven't answered my question. No one for over a thousand years- orthodox Christians, Christian heretics, Gnostics, Jews, pagan Romans, Zoroastrians, or Muslims- seriously challenged the idea that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph. Sure, they made up silly claims like He was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier or whatever, but _no one_ said He was the son of Joseph. Why not, Moe? Between believing that He was the son of God by a virgin Mother, and believing that He was the illegitimate child of a Roman, I know which seems more convincing."

Yes. So do I. And there are a whole lot of bastards in history, Hector.

Tacitus wrote about the Phoenix, Hector, the magical bird that appears in the Harry Potter books. No one back then was challenging his account, either. Does that mean the bird was real?

There are only four possible explanations- mania, mendacity, malice, or mystical vision.

no there aren't. this is an old problem. your premises allow you prove your conclusion pretty easily, but we don't share your premises.

tinisoli writes: "That you take your magic story more seriously than you take the Mormons' is simply your choice. But it's no more valid than the LDS nonsense just because your fairy tale has been around longer and people therefore have had more time to cobble together explanations for all the inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies."

Of course. The Mormon story was invented during a more reasonable age, and an age of historical record, and so it was questioned immediately. How would someone in Rome in 75 CE question dubious crap that supposedly occurred in Judea 40-50 years previously? They weren't questioning Mithras, either. What was one more god in a marketplace full of them?

as i said earlier, when premises aren't shared and we're talking "logic" there really isn't going to be much movement in discussing religion. that being said, the important area where mormons are vulnerable are cases where some of them (i would say most still today) hold naive views of new world settlement and what not. those are pretty falsifiable in commonly held forms. mormons can get out of this by employing the 'miracle' get out of jail card, or the 'god hid evidence' card. but they don't do that, so we're back to either reworking (through interpretation) how the mormon narratives aren't false when compared to the data, or just denying the data (as creationists do with the age of the earth).

Ross Douthat's comparison isn't defensible, which isn't surprising since I assume he hasn't "waded into the weeds of history, archaeology and comparative theology" any more than Feldman has.

Scientific proof of the existence of the Romans, or of Peter, in no way proves the Gospel accounts or demonstrates Christianity, any more than proving the existence of upstate New York and Joseph Smith proves Mormonism. As it turns out, the historical existence of Joseph Smith is much, much better attested than the historical existence Peter or James and John. But no one cares, nor should they, because the mere existence of any of these figures proves nothing.

What would really prove something is hard proof of the Resurrection or the existence of the Nephites or other Book of Mormon peoples or places. There is some evidence of both, but not enough.

razib quotes and replies: "I'm constantly surprised I have to point this sort of thing out to people who are old enough to read and write.

you should take some reading comprehension courses yourself. since i stated i was an secularist in the first comment i don't really believe in all the supernatural stuff. unless you are stupid enough imply that cyrus and that maccabees are only attested in the hewbrew bible."

Since you can barely write a coherent English sentence I usually skip your stuff. In any event I wasn't responding to the first comment, I was responding to your absurd notion that the presence of real-world places and people in a book somehow means it might be "true." It's just a simple-minded sort of comment to make. Obviously the poster you were responding to wasn't saying Rome or Judea or the Maccabees did not exist.

Could you write more sentences like this one, though?: "i can't make sense of the whereof you speak." That's just funny stuff, chuckles.

Razib,

I knew about the 'trilemma argument'. I agree it has flaws. Which is why I wasn't talking about Jesus, I was talking about St. Joan, who lived fifteen centuries later, and about whom there is much more contemporary documentation, both from her friends and her enemies. One can avoid the Trilemma Argument by saying that the record is so poor that one can't really know what Jesus said. One can't say the same thing about St. Joan, when there are reams and reams of documents written by her contemporaries.

In a broader sense, how do you deal with the reams and reams of accounts of mystical experiences through the millennia, some of them by men and women of the highest intelligence and personal virtue? I would deal with it by presuming that the Persons and Places that they claimed to see- God, the devil, the angels, Heaven and Hell- actually exist. It seems like the most reasonable explanation to me.

Hector writes: "In a broader sense, how do you deal with the reams and reams of accounts of mystical experiences through the millennia, some of them by men and women of the highest intelligence and personal virtue? I would deal with it by presuming that the Persons and Places that they claimed to see- God, the devil, the angels, Heaven and Hell- actually exist. It seems like the most reasonable explanation to me."

Do you feel the same way about the mystical experiences claimed by members of other religions, Hector? Or do you think they're just deceived by the Debbil, or perhaps that Jesus was playing dress-up on that particular day?

MoeLarryAndJesus strikes again with his fascinating blend of pomposity and desperate cries for help!

"Chuckles," sweetheart, we get it. You don't like conservatives. You don't like religious believers. You think all religion is a waste of time. And yet you continue to post, MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, on a conservative Catholic's blog. Why is that, Moe, sweetie? Did Daddy beat as a child? Did Mommy not love you enough? Are you too much of pussy in real life to stand up for yourself, so you are forced to incessantly write arrogant and annoying anonymous comments on every blogpost by Ross?

Internet dating is now widely used, you might be able to find someone! I hear women on there are pretty desperate!

Good luck, sweetheart!

Derrick

Hector,

Hallucinations, hopes, lies, dreams, psychosis, schizophrenia, wishful thinking, various gases seeping up from the Earth, drugs, alcohol, cannabis.... These are but a few possible inspirations or sources for the mystical experiences through the ages. And these are things that we KNOW are real. You just don't like them enough. They're inadequate. Just as the human brain and evolution and other things aren't awesome enough to displace your Jesus.

Just a couple of comments from me, a lifetime Mormon (member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

(1) A Mormon apostle, Jeffrey R. Holland, recently gave a speech that addresses the question as to whether Mormons are Christian. In my opinion, the speech is well stated, clear and logical. In essence, the speech points out that Mormon beliefs about the Godhead are scriptually based, whereas the trinitarian notion accepted by most Christian religions is based on a crede developed by men long after Christ died (not on the Bible). http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html;

I point this out not to speak ill of my Christian friends, but to assert that Mormons are indeed Christian!

(2) Within the discussion about the historical validity of the Book of Mormon, I would like to point out that the purpose of the Book of Mormon, as stated on its title page, is to convince "the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God". I have noticed that critics of the Book of Mormon tend to focus on why the book cannot be true based on lack of archaeological evidence, or on Joseph Smith's supposed fabrications, etc. Yet those critics are missing the point. The Book of Mormon's main message and purpose is to bring souls to Jesus Christ. Its main purpose is not to teach people about the ancient American civilizations. I have read the Book of Mormon many times. I've also read many commentaries about the Book of Mormon, both for and against the book. The book's strength is of course its teachings about the Atonement of Christ (why it was necessary and how it helps us), the certainty of the resurrection, God's promises that He has made to us, His children and, most importantly the ability of men and women to experience a spiritual rebirth through the power of Jesus Christ. If you haven't yet read the Book of Mormon, I encourage you to get your own copy and read it with a sincere heart, with the intent to come unto Christ. It will make your life better.

Look at the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There's a lot of good going on in this growing worldwide movement. There must be something that's right about it!

Derrick posts: "Derrick

Posted by Derrick "

Keep on posting those Derrick posts posted by Derrick, Derrick. They're very Derrick, Derrick.

tinisoli,

Is it easier for certain people to ascribe their mystical experience to something transcendent or is it easier for certain other people to ascribe their experience to purely natural phenomenon? Of course, you have "hopes" and "wishful thinking" listed, which hardly describe purely natural phenomenon. Good luck explaining to the Churchlands why those things should be included on your list. Even Sam Harris, a committed atheist, recognizes some value in mystical experience, although as far as I know he attributes it all to the material. But this shouldn't really come as much of a surprise. Even an atheist, quasi-nihilist like Heidegger was a mystic in some sense. I'm rather agnostic on the whole subject, quite frankly, but it's hard for me not to scoff at a supposed empiricist who then dismisses out of hand mystical experiences. I'll take William James over Daniel Dennett any day, thank you very much.

Paul F writes: "If you haven't yet read the Book of Mormon, I encourage you to get your own copy and read it with a sincere heart, with the intent to come unto Christ."

Just stay at a Marriott and take one home with you. It's how I got mine.

"Look at the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Shhh! Mitt's trying to pretend those people don't exist until after the election!

Derrick derricks: "Is it easier for certain people to ascribe their mystical experience to something transcendent or is it easier for certain other people to ascribe their experience to purely natural phenomenon? Of course, you have "hopes" and "wishful thinking" listed, which hardly describe purely natural phenomenon."

Is it easier for certain people to try to use big words in order to appear intelligent when they don't know what the plural of "phenomenon" is?

That's twice you've got me on syntax, Moe! In a single thread, no less! Whatever am I going to do? I'll probably just abandon all of my beliefs about the world because an internet loser with Mommy and Daddy issues decided to make fun of me!! Yep, that's what I'll do, just like every other person Moe calls a dummy-head on this website will.

Hey, Has anyone here read the Book of Mormon? Does anyone here believe that God answers prayers? Has anyone read the Book of Mormon and asked God if it is true? That's what I want to hear about. God doesn't allow the deductive proof of these concepts but rather requires faith and witness based on the trial of faith. The Holy Ghost is the source of truth. As we develop our sensitivity to the Holy Ghost and progress through steps outlined by Christ we become like him and have knowledge not available by typical academic or logical means. This does not mean that the two are contradictory. I have read and prayed about the Book of Mormon and know that it is true. I am a Mormon. I can think of any number of reasons why any objection to elements of the history of the Church can be easily explained. It all comes down to a spiritual sensitivity. The rest is just spinning your wheels.
This is very important though. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes some huge claims: active modern revelation, priesthood authority, modern scripture, new ancient scripture. It's either the most important religious occurance since Christ's ministry and resurrection or it's a wicked lie. Choose wisely. By their fruits ye shall know them.

This may merely become added noise. But I feel that the absurdities and untenable claims made by Rob, and a few others, throughout this thread, and even the claim in the article that goes

"is that the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to stack up nearly as well in this regard as, say, the Gospel According to Saint Matthew."

All have the bravado of appealing to cleverly made works that only regard the facts they find to be favorable.

The above quote is not demonstrated, and I would defy it to be demonstrated. But this is common fair for the pseudo-intellectual critic.

Now you may say that I'm doing the same thing. But you'd be wrong. I can't answer, and few would pay enough attention to make it worth answering, with the time limitations in my life. But I can put together videos and post them on youtube. They are not fancy fair like you'll find in many major pieces critical of the Mormon faith, but they answer the questions and demonstrate the folly of many of these hollow attempts to allow assertions to pass as proof.

So go to my channel page on YouTube. User name is the same- "HiveRadical" There I do my best to answer things like the Book of Abraham issue, DNA issue and a variety of other issues.

I believe Feldman presented his case as he did because he knows that so many of these hollow assertions that are given as though they were fact are hollow and mere illusions held on to by people who think they've explained 'Mormonism' sufficiently.

Derrick laments: "That's twice you've got me on syntax, Moe! In a single thread, no less!"

That's true. But there is hope. Many communities offer free adult literacy programs. I encourage you to take advantage of your opportunities in your own area.

Moe,

I certainly will. Out of thanks I would like to help you find a psychiatrist to deal with some of those emotional resentments you harbor towards your parents. Perhaps we can find a good psychoanalyst. I also have a few friends that did match.com, and they seemed to have positive experiences. They might offer some sort of buy 1 month get 1 month free or something. Anyways, together we can do this!

Yeah, Derrick, that would be one hell of a way to celebrate my 20th wedding anniversary coming up in a few months.

Your assumptions about me are all wrong. On the other hand your lack of literacy is right there in almost every one of your posts, so please do get some help.

Marriage for 20 years, NO WONDER you're so angry and bitter! Perhaps the woman is a little overbearing and you have to take out some of that built-up rage and frustration on an anonymous blog? Am I right? Am I right?

Anyways, psychoanalysis is good for the soul, Moe, but it's hard when you won't open up to me. I feel like we are making progress, but you really need to just talk to a professional. Remember, they are here to HELP you.

Derrick again: "Marriage for 20 years, NO WONDER you're so angry and bitter! Perhaps the woman is a little overbearing and you have to take out some of that built-up rage and frustration on an anonymous blog? Am I right? Am I right?"

Well, no. You're not. You're just another marginal intellect who gets offended when I make fun of your marginal literacy. It's a common phenomenon.

If I were to play your own silly psych game I might say that it's too bad your parents divorced when you were young, but that it was your fault because you were such a shitty child with so many behavioral issues, but that would be unfair, so I won't do it.

Jim Keane (who posts under the adolescent name of MoeLarryAndJesus) wrote: that would be one hell of a way to celebrate my 20th wedding anniversary coming up in a few months.

It's funny. Jim Keane actually mentioned once to me, for absolutely no good reason, that he was married in 1988 (when I asked why he told me this he got agitated). Now that he brings it up again it seems clear that it must be something he's pretty proud of. If it's true it would indicate that Jim Keane is at least in his early to mid forties. That really is remarkable when you think about some of the things he writes: "Grotesque Old Party", "Douche" for Deuce, "Repiglicans", "chuckles" . . . If a teenage boy were to write this way one would gently chide him and tell him how such language is neither funny nor conducive to civil discourse. But one presumes that a 40-year-old man would know this so what can you do?

In any event, congrats Jim to you and your wife on 20 years. May you have 20 wonderful more.

Jim Keane:Derrick posts: "Derrick

Posted by Derrick "

Keep on posting those Derrick posts posted by Derrick, Derrick. They're very Derrick, Derrick.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | January 8, 2008 12:05 AM

Did you really just try to make fun of someone for typing their own signature in addition to the signature that is automatically generated when you post a comment?

Wow! That really is pitiful Jim. You're an odd mix of sad middle-aged-dad-humor and 13-year-old Beavis and Butthead crudeness.

I think age brings respectability, Mormons is still more respectable than Scientology, but I'm not sure that's exactly bad. If a social system can survive for long periods of time while faced with competition I think that does say something. Lutheranism, for example, is therefore objectively more reasonable than say Heaven's Gate as it did not implode or suicide.

However to say that's the only impact would probably be wrong. The Salvation Army is younger than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are a few other religions younger than LDS that are also deemed "more ordinary."

LDS is plausibly more like the various "Restorationist" forms of Christianity like Adventism, stricter Campbellites, Christadelphians, and a few new-Christian movements in Africa or Southeast Asia. As the Neuhaus article indicates Restorationists often indicate other forms of Christianity are fallen or false. This puts a tension between their religion and Christians right off. I think an Adventist candidate would also have difficulties. (Christadelphians I believe reject politics)

Although for Evangelicals I've known Mormonism is seen as more "out there" than Adventism, which I believe is roughly the same age as Mormonism, in large part because it has an additional book. Protestantism in general is somewhat more book-bound than other forms of Christianity so adding or subtracting books is much more horrifying there. Catholicism rejects additional holy books, but on the whole Catholics I've known aren't as shocked/horrified by the "they added another book" element. That's likely in part because Catholicism isn't Sola Scriptura anyway. However even Liberal Protestants I've known find the idea of an additional book to be outre or highly upsetting. Even if Mormonism were older this aspect, plus it being Restorationist, would place it at odds with most Protestantism.

So where's the translation then Aaron?

Seth, perhaps you misunderstand the nature of the problem. According to confidant William Clayton,

"I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship - The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, page 117)

William Clayton, who had spent much of the day with Joseph Smith before writing this journal entry, reports that Smith "says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found". This is evidence of at least a preliminary translation undertaken by Smith. Unless you believe his close friend and confidant is simply lying, you need to deal with the fact that it looks like Smith did some preliminary translation work on plates that were later found to be fraudulent.

For those interested, there is also material available on the Book of Abraham which Smith claimed to have translated from Egyptian papyri. I'd encourage everyone to do a Google on these "down the rabbit hole" kind of issues.

What makes you think I haven't already done that Aaron? Not particularly impressed.

I always find telling that the vast majority of the attacks on Mormonism are essentially ad hominem. It's always about whether Joseph lied, or whether Brigham Young contradicted himself, or whether Joseph was a charlatan, or whether the current prophet is old and senile. There's precious little actual engagement with the doctrine or teachings, except in the most superficial manner ("oooh gross! polygamy!"). Very rarely are the ethics and values contained in Mormon scripture and teachings engaged seriously.

"it looks like Smith did some preliminary translation work on plates that were later found to be fraudulent."

Which he then dropped entirely without mention. I still don't see what your point is.

You are providing a perfect example of the sort of trivial crap we have to put up with incessantly from those seeking to make hay out thin air.

Why is it that my beliefs are facts and what others may believe are merely opinions? To do anything else (when those beliefs are contrary to your own) invalidates your own beliefs). It's not really open to discussion is it?

Here's to diversity: regardless of religion, value the individual and their actions....it seems that a difference in belief hasn't held a great deal of the world's population from contributing things that are valuable to others.

Race, appearance, religion and gender...they are such easy targets and it would seem all those that are individually targetted invariably have 'asked for it'.

What is it about prejudice?

Romneys belief that he can become like God is more biblical than some might think...What exactly does 'joint heir with Christ' mean? To me it suggests some sort of equality.
As a parent I hope my children will surpass me in success...I can only imagine if God is truly a Father in heaven...that he wants his children to obtain their greatest potential. The vastness of the universe leaves plenty of room for more than the Orthodox Christian view of eternity....To me, an eternity sitting outside the pearly gates in a choir with a harp sounds like Hell. ;-)

Since much of the opposition to Mormonism comes from evagelicals who consider the entire Bible as literla truth, the issue isn't only St. Peter but also Noah's Ark and Jonah in the belly of the Great Fish? I consider them and the Nephites to be equally plausible. And if there's anything in the Book or Mormon as dishonest as insisting that Isaiah was prophesying a virgin birth, I'm unaware of it.

Scientific proof of the existence of the Romans, or of Peter, in no way proves the Gospel accounts or demonstrates Christianity, any more than proving the existence of upstate New York and Joseph Smith proves Mormonism.

But that wasn't Ross's argument, was it?

At least as I read him, Ross isn't saying that the Gospel accounts are proven. But the historical narrative set forth in the Gospels is not disproven by or inconsistent with the evidence from archeology or other historical sources.

By contrast, the alleged existence in ancient North America of a Kingdom of "Nephites" descended from tribes of Israel is (a) lacking any corroborative evidence whatsoever, and (b) radically inconsistent with everything that genetics, archeology, linguistics and other disciplines tell us about the American continents of that era.

That doesn't prove that Mormon theology is false. But those inconsistencies -- not the recent vintage of the LDS -- are what make Mormonism relatively implausible as a belief system.

Scott said:

"but it seems to me a religion gains plausibility if parts of its narrative can be corraborated with objective archaeological evidence. Archaeologists are continually amazed to discover the depth of historical accuracy in the Bible in its mention of obscure communities and rulers later determined to have existed when new archaeolgical evidence is unearthed."

This argument is absolute nonsense.

So, just because the authors set their myths in real places, this lends credence to stories of miracles, or to descriptions of the nature of god?

That's really unbelievable nonsense.

I'd say the situation is quite the opposite: the more we understand nature and creation, and physics, the less likely these ancient myths and descriptions of god are literally true. The evidence keeps piling up and it's brutally persuasive.

And I say this as a believer in a creator.

Simon said:

"At least as I read him, Ross isn't saying that the Gospel accounts are proven. But the historical narrative set forth in the Gospels is not disproven by or inconsistent with the evidence from archeology or other historical sources."

This means nothing.

The historical narrative in the Gospels IS seriously inconsistent with, um, science.

And if there's anything in the Book or Mormon as dishonest as insisting that Isaiah was prophesying a virgin birth, I'm unaware of it.

In compiling the Septuagint, the rabbis translated Isaiah's "almah" into the Greek "parthenos" (virgin) 200-300 years before Christ, which at the very least suggests that virgin was the common meaning of the term.

Nor does Isaiah's prophecy make a lot of sense if he's just talking about an ordinary young woman having a baby in an ordinary way: what sort of "sign" would that be?

The Greek Septuagint text was regarded as divinely inspired by such ancient Jewish writers as Philo and Josephus. The Masoretic text, which is today used by Jews and commonly referred to as the "Hebrew", didn't reach its final form until nearly a thousand years after the Septuagint did and long after the time of Christ. So the Christian acceptance of the Septuagint is hardly a case of "dishonesty."

"it looks like Smith did some preliminary translation work on plates that were later found to be fraudulent."

Which he then dropped entirely without mention. I still don't see what your point is.

You are providing a perfect example of the sort of trivial crap we have to put up with incessantly from those seeking to make hay out thin air.

The point is that it has been proven that Smith's "translations" of various things were completely wrong, demonstrating that he made everything up. He did not know how to translate ancient langauges, and translations of things he "translated" showed he was completely wrong. Moreover, the fact that none of the historical claims in the Book of Mormon bear up to any archeological or genetic testing doesn't bother you? Or that past prophet's statements or prophecies(which in the LDS church are literally straight from god) have either not come true or been disproven? How does one square Joseph Smith's teachings being straight from god w/ them being abandoned less than 100 years later? Either they came from god or they didn't if you abandon one SMith teaching from god you have to question them all.

I have one rule for church versus cult: if you have to keep things (ceremonies, beliefs) secret - you are a cult (momomonism, scientology). A true religion opens all of its ceremonies, etc. and all of its beliefs for anyone to witness/hear.

When I can go into any Mormon temple and watch any ceremony (from baptising the dead who never asked for it to wedding ceremonies) then I might take claims that it is christian or a religion seriously. Why the need to hide your beliefs and ceremonies? What, exactly are you hiding?

when I can talk to any Mormon and they admit they believe that Jesus was simply a man from another planet who became a god and populated this planet, and that they in turn are going to get their own planet to be god of, I will be surprised. Most Mormons I meet will not admit this belief, or they do not know that such belief is central to their own religion. Why is that? What kind of religion teaches its adherents to hide their beliefs in order to win converts. What kind of religion lies about its beliefs to get converts? I'm sure the LDS commenters here have reasons that they have been taught, but ask yourself, who lies about the truth? If you believe in your religion and think it is the "truth" then why hide it/ lie about it? How does that make sense?

That is why mormonism is a cult. All religions are based on odd stories and myths. If that was the only problem with mormonism, it would just be another religion with its own whacky beliefs - like every other religion (although I can understand why christians get upset w/ Mormons trying to pretend they are christians - its like a generic brand pretending it is coke to live off the brand name).

The problem with mormonism is the lying, the secrecy, etc. And the way it keeps people in line by cutting families / friends off from people who leave the religion. That, my LDS friends, is a cult.

"By contrast, the alleged existence in ancient North America of a Kingdom of "Nephites" descended from tribes of Israel is (a) lacking any corroborative evidence whatsoever, and (b) radically inconsistent with everything that genetics, archeology, linguistics and other disciplines tell us about the American continents of that era."

Rather extreme claim to be making considering that the Western Hemisphere's ancient history is so poorly documented. Archaeologists and historians who've actually studied the area freely admit there is almost no surviving written record of what did or did not happen in the Americas. Mayan is about the only ancient American language scholars have managed to pick apart to any degree, and there's precious little of that.

Contrary to popular opinion, the DNA studies to date aren't even close to conclusive on whether a civilization of ancient Middle Eastern people could or could not have existed in the Americas during the Book of Mormon's time frame.

About the only statement of yours I agree with is that there is little corroborative evidence that is conclusive.

So, just because the authors set their myths in real places, this lends credence to stories of miracles, or to descriptions of the nature of god?

What some of the commenters on this thread seem to miss that we aren't talking about sufficient conditions for religious belief. We all understand that some people believe all religions are bunk, fairy tales, etc. Fine. But the post is about why Mormonism is generally viewed with more skepticism: because of its age or because of its specific claims?

Obviously the historical existence of persons, kingdoms, etc., mentioned in the any purported work of scripture is not a sufficient reason to accept certain theological arguments or claims about miraculous events.

It may be, however, a necessary condition. And the problem with Mormonism is that, absent a HUGE leap of faith, it's virtually certain that all of the persons, places, kingdoms and events described in the Book of Mormon are fictitious.

Jews and Christians, of course, also believe that the truths of faith are in some sense beyond reason. They are above reason, but not (they hold) against reason. They are therefore prepared to make arguments about the reasonableness (not proof) of their faith without resort to particular religious authorities. These arguments may be bunk, but the great tradition of Jewish and Christian philosophy tries to make them. Their faith does not rest wholly upon faith, so to speak.

If we place aside all the stuff about Mormon revelation, what reasons can Mormons provide to believe their teachings? Suppose that the writer of this post has in fact read a stack of books by Mormon thinkers like B.H. Roberts, Richard Millet, etc. Suppose too that I have read the Mormon scriptures. Finally, after a great deal of reading these materials, suppose that I find them absolutely repugnant to reason. Now, why should I believe Mormon doctrines? Perhaps you can show me why reason alone would "point" in the direction of there being an infinity of gods, and that the gods were once men, and that we too can become gods and make our own universes. Christians and Jews provide arguments, though not absolute proofs, that it is reasonable to believe, for instance, that God is one, incorporeal, simple, good, omniscient. These, after all, were arguments found in Aristotle and other philosophers. How does the Mormon counter-argument god? Go on. I'm listening.

Simon said:

"It may be, however, a necessary condition. And the problem with Mormonism is that, absent a HUGE leap of faith, it's virtually certain that all of the persons, places, kingdoms and events described in the Book of Mormon are fictitious."

But the myths aren't about these things - they are about the nature of god and creation and the origins and destiny of humankind.

And absent a HUGE leap of faith, it's virtually certain that the nature of god and the origins of humans, as described by Mormonism and by Christianity, are equally fictitious.

Sorry, that post by me--Ross--was not by Ross Douthat.

Re: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes some huge claims: active modern revelation, priesthood authority, modern scripture, new ancient scripture. It's either the most important religious occurance since Christ's ministry and resurrection or it's a wicked lie. Choose wisely. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Good. You set out the dichotomy quite well there. If those are the options, then I choose to believe that the writings of Joseph Smith were a wicked lie. An extraordinarily wicked lie. In the case of Mormonism, the 'fruits' you are talking about include polygamy, pedophilia, racism, persecution of non-Mormons, and I don't know what else. By their fruits shall we know them indeed.

Willie,

The Gospel narrative is incompatible with science?

No, not true. The things like the virgin birth, resurrection, etc. are _miracles_ by definition. Miracles are _outside_ the purview of science, they're not _against_ science. God can suspend or interfere with the laws of nature when He pleases. The fact that He doesn't normally, or very often, allows science to exist- science tells us how nature operates according to its own inherent laws, and miracles are what happen when those laws are temporarily suspended. Miracles are only incompatible with science if you believe that science should explain _everything_ without exceptions.

Exactly Hector. Exactly what I was saying about the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is only incompatible with archeology if you believe that archeology should explain everything that happened in an area.

Nice to see we're on the same page.

The Book of Mormon is only incompatible with archeology if you believe that archeology should explain everything that happened in an area

That is very deceptive. There is a difference between reported miracles (i.e., the virgin birth) and reported historical facts (i.e., that the romans controlled judea, that pontias pilot was governor, etc.). You are trying to lay the Book of Mormons alleged historical facts off as miracles. It is simply a fact that none of the Book of Mormon's alleged historical facts of the americas are true.

Are you now claiming that everything in the book of mormon is simply a miracle - that none of the alleged history that it reports can be verified b/c it is all outside of science and history?

This kind of claim is why mormonism is ridiculed.

"i've seen mormons, unsophisticated as some of them are, make these same sorts of assertions about mainstream christian philosophy which draws deeply from greek concepts, and i share the concerns and perspectives. granted, i do agree as an empirical matter that mormonism does not provide the philosophical depth that older religious traditions have had time to develop, but most humans are too stupid to understand systematic philosophy anyway."

Well boy howdee, I is happy that us durt dom Momans r able to point out that greek filoso fillos... whatever.

Now with that out of the way, most of the members I have known in my life are very bright folks(including myself ;-)). When I was growing up in Boulder, my Bishop worked for the bureau of standards, our Stake president was a physicist who was the keeper of the atomic clock, and my young men's advisor worked at NCAR as climatologist. Our ward was full of scientist and profesors at CU. My dad was geologist who worked for the USGS. Sorry I do not have a reference, but more LDS go into science than any other group - including atheist.

Maybe the Mormons you have met have been simple folk but I think your stereotype of this group is off by a mile. Mitt R. being a top Harvard graduate in Law and Business does not seem to fit your steroetype very well. I have a PharmD and almost obtained a masters in science education (too much poverty in teaching so I moved on to Pharmacy). We could get into the game of "My IQ is bigger than your IQ", but I'll keep it simple and stat that your opinion of my group is unsupported by the data. Maybe you should brush up a bit on the scientifice method before drawing such conclusions.

"It is simply a fact that none of the Book of Mormon's alleged historical facts of the americas are true."

You need to keep up - your antiMo 101 classes are a bit behind.
- The route that Lehi took out of Jeruselem to the eastern coast of modern day Saudi Arabia has been well verified. Many of the things stated in the BoM on this subject were NOT available to Joseph Smith.
- The DNA issue I'll refer you to the FAIR website and my thoughts on it are their for all to see. I've grown tired of writing about it over and over. I'll give a brief summation. The actual text - for those who actualy read the book - states very clearly that other groups have come to the Americas, and the accounts in the book are of a very limited geographical area. It also appears clear that the Lehites had others join with them once they arrived (details on these "others" are not given.
I have also noted how poorly the critics missuse information gleaned through both mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomal DNA. They do not understand the science or the BoM. Using their "logic" 83% of the male Jews living in Israel would not be Jewish because they do not carry the Cohen marker.

I'm a true blue through and through LDS member. It gets very tiring trying to correct the misconceptions over and over and over. It would be nice if the critics would come up with something new instead of repeating the old stuff like a broken record. There are a few who come up with some fresh stuff, but they are the rare exception. I wish there were more of them out there - that makes life interesting.

Evan,

Your "facts" are junk science put out by LDS - they are not true, are disputed by ALL non LDS scientists, and by the scientific method. That is simply fact. You can make all the claims you want, but it still won't be true at the end of the day.

Why the need to lie to support your religion? Ask yourself that. Why the secrecy? Why when I talk to your "missionaries" are they unable or unwilling to admit the true LDS beliefs, such as that Jesus is one of many gods, etc., etc.? If your religion is the "truth" why do you all lie about it? Why do you hide it? I don't understand the thinking that allows for that, it is bizarre, much like the claims in the book of mormon or pearl of great price.

Why also the need to trade on the christianity brand name? It is clear that LDS doctrine deviates completely from any other christrian doctrine, so why the need to steal a base to claim legitimacy by trying to pretend you are the same as any other christian denomination? If you believe you are the truth, why lie about your beliefs and try to convince new converts that your beleifs are the same as all other christians?

Any "religion" that is spread through lies and secrecy is troubling to me, and should be to you.

"Your "facts" are junk science put out by LDS - they are not true, are disputed by ALL non LDS scientists, and by the scientific method. That is simply fact. You can make all the claims you want, but it still won't be true at the end of the day."

Why should I believe you? Because you can spell "ALL" in ALL-CAPS?

Most scientists don't give a rat's ptooey about Mormonism or its claims one way or the other. The DNA studies, for instance, contrary to what you infer, were not designed with refuting the Book of Mormon in mind. The studies were simply trying to map genetic markers in Native Americans. They weren't even thinking about Mormons at all.

I'd be flattered if "ALL" non-LDS scientists in the United States of America were so concerned about Mormonism that they took the time to weigh in on our claims. But somehow I doubt it.

Friendly tip: pounding the table doesn't give your arguments any more weight than they already have.

Re: as a point of point the aristocracy was overwhelmingly pagan until the late 4th century.

Depends what you mean by "Pagan". Belief in the traditional Greek and Roman gods was pretty much limited to the rural peasantry by the 4th century AD, despite the fact that they had elaborate temples and cults. Most urban Romans had turned to other beliefs. Among the rich and educated this was apt to be some sort of philosophical school, like Stoicism (and some of these had become monotheistic). Among lesser people various foreign "mystery" cults were popular: the cult of Isis or of Mithra or, indeed, of Jesus.

re: The Mormon story was invented during a more reasonable age, and an age of historical record, and so it was questioned immediately

There is an element of modern hubris and arrogance in this. The ancients were not any more stupid than people nowadays.

Re: These are but a few possible inspirations or sources for the mystical experiences through the ages.

Why aren't such things also a possible interpretation for non-mystical experiences? How do we know that any experience is "real"? If you see a white unicorn you will brand that an halucination, but if you see a white horse most likely you will pronounce the horse real. Why? If the answer is simply that you, and others, are familiar with horses but not with unicorns then I wonder if we can ever accept any unusual or anomalous event as real. Your view leads to a rigid conseravtism that is an intellectual and cultural dead-end since it allows for nothing that is not already known.

re: In compiling the Septuagint, the rabbis translated Isaiah's "almah" into the Greek "parthenos" (virgin) 200-300 years before Christ, which at the very least suggests that virgin was the common meaning of the term.

The terms "young woman" and "virgin" were pretty much synonymous throughout most of history. To this day the German word for "virgin" is "Jungfrau", literally, "Young woman".

Hector, If you don't want to really examine the claims just say so. You don't need to make up an excuse. To say that the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its Prophets or members are such heinous crimes is a lie that reveals your true colors to all but the most prejudiced and closed minded. TRC

Here's a thought. "Mormonism" generates such an opposition because it is true. The Father of Lies rails against it because it threatens his kingdom. All his carefully constructed ruses, and comfortable tricks are threatened. His hoodwinked victims are brought out of darkness. Read and pray with an open mind, if you dare. Come up out of Plato's Cave. It's nice out here.

What's the lie, Thatcher?

Is it a lie that Joe Smith forced dozens of vulnerable young women, some of them only fourteen years old, into so-called 'plural marriages' (i.e. rapes). Sexual crimes reduce the credibility of a prophet in my eyes. I have no time for the claims that Muhammed was a prophet, nor do i have time for Joseph Smith.

I have no need to examine the claims of God being a material being dwelling on Kolab with his harem of 'heifers' (such a charming name for women, isn't it), or the claims that man can become a God. I'll repeat the question: How is your god different from Francis Crick's space alien? When you succeed in demonstrating to me how it is possible for God to be material, then perhaps i will believe you.

Which of these are lies, pray tell? The only liar around here is Joseph Smith.

Uh, no, Thatcher. The Father of Lies is quite happy with the good work he did in inspiring Joseph Smith to preach the gospel of polygamy.

The Father of Lies loves Mormonism because it is the perfect religion for a materialistic age- preaching that God Himself is material. What a great religion to appeal to a prideful age- preaching that you too can become a god! What a great religion to appeal to a lustful age- preaching that you too can have your harem of heifers! what a perfect creed for a greedy age- preaching that wealth is a sign of divine favor! what a transparent fraud in other words.

personally, I have no desire to be the god of my own universe. whether on Kolab or anywhere else. my own afterlife plans will be satisfied when i can prostrate at the feet of my God and my Lord, thank you very much. who was it who said of mystical experience, I want to _taste_ sugar, I don't want to _be_ sugar.

Your facts are in error. Wouldn't it be great to hear more of what God has to say? Wouldn't it be neat to hear how God's love was extended to another whole population? Why resist? A lover of truth should hasten to test it directly not quibble over questionable, peripheral claims. People made fraudulent claims against Christ and all the prophets. Read and pray it's the only way to know. Do you trust God to answer? Anyway I have read, I have studied, I have prayed and I report to the world that it is true and that the fruits of the Gospel of Christ, the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, and the fruits of its leaders is good fruit.

To me a material God is obvious. Christ took such meticulous care to demonstrate the reality, tangability, materialness of his resurrected body that I can't believe that he's not material. It would be contrary to the Bible. The whole premise of the ressurection is to be material again. The whole of the ministry to the Sadducees was to demonstrate the reality of the resurrection which is to put on material form, although perfect and far more refined. He's material.

"Is it a lie that Joe Smith forced dozens of vulnerable young women, some of them only fourteen years old, into so-called 'plural marriages' (i.e. rapes). Sexual crimes reduce the credibility of a prophet in my eyes. I have no time for the claims that Muhammed was a prophet, nor do i have time for Joseph Smith."

I suppose you are equally willing to jettison Abraham then Hector. Correct?

In any case, your statement is a distortion of the reality of what Joseph actually is recorded as having done. Here's another article for you on the subject:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's_marriages_to_young_women

As for polygamy itself, it's not a concept that bugs me in the slightest. I have no desire to see the doctrine re-instituted, and I think that human weakness being what it is, it is probably not advisable to practice it (too emotionally difficult for the participants). I also think it easily leads to the sort of abuses we've seen on the news recently. But other than that, I don't have a huge problem with it, and don't really see why everyone else gets so worked up over it, except that it's something they aren't used to.

I recently send in a swab to lab at Johns Hopkins. It turns out that my grandmother is 1/2 Lehite and 1/2 Irish. Funny, she doesn't look Lehite. I, however have the Lehite schnoz. I guess my Lehite background explains my desire to get into show business.

"Your "facts" are junk science put out by LDS - they are not true, are disputed by ALL non LDS scientists, and by the scientific method. That is simply fact. You can make all the claims you want, but it still won't be true at the end of the day."

I'd love to hear what is wrong with my arguments - they are in the message board archives over at LDSFAIR.org. Most of the critics who claim "junk" science do not even understand the science of mapping genomes. I have a good grasp of the subject because of my time as an undergrad studing cutthroat trout populations and their phylogenetics. In know way am I as good as some the "LDS hack scientist" I'm aquanted with. I do however understand the science and the book - both are needed to even play in this discourse without coming out sound like a Huckabite (new term I have for ignorant bumpkins).

A fellow by the name of Murphy got all the antis doing a jig when he wrote a paper for his masters as some community college in Washington. His science was junk - he did not understand the limitations of what phylogenetics could accomplish nor did he understand the Book of Mormon very well. He didn't even do any of his own studies, he had no null hypothesis, and he seemed far more interested in getting attention than actually coming up with a valid conclusion. He was trying to both claim a hemispheric model for the book and state that the science would tell us EXACTLY (see I can use all caps to) what markers were carried over by Lehi's small group. Anyone who understands mDNA and Y chromosomal DNA studies knows that you can not do this!

Let's do a little test to see if you know what your talking about. Answer these and well move on.
1) Have you read the BoM and what do you think Nephi ment when he said, "for my people are not learned in the ways of the Jews" and how does that apply to this discussion?
2) Let's suppose a guy named Sven Jorgenson from Sweden, who has his geneology going back all the way to the 13th century - all Swedes, is shown to be of PURE (caps again) Moorish decent!?
3) What markers were carried over by Lehi's group and how do you know?
4) What were some of the major trade routes around 600 BC and how is that relavent to the discussion?
5) What are some of the many scriptures in the BoM that destroy the hemispheric model?
6) What is the hemispheric model vs the limited geography model (hint Murphy tries to force the argument to be that of the hemispheric model - he's wrong)?
7) What makes an LDS scientist a hack and non LDS scientist not a hack? Most scientist I have known both members and non-members are pretty ethical folks and they do their best to stick to the basic principles of good research and the scientific method (well maybe not the Psychologist).
8) Are you a scientist by profession? If not, how do you know what is and is not "junk" science? I'll really laugh my head off if I find out you are a fundamentalist evangelical creationist.

Interested to see your response.

ARRRG! No edit button - sorry for the typos. Open game to get digs on me for my awefull spelling. My wife mocks me all the time - but she was little miss spelling champ in the state of Ohio (at least my kids can get a chance at a good spelling gene).

Can any Mormon provide an argument for the reasonableness of Mormon doctrines without reliance on miraculous, uncorroborated revelation and gooey autobiography?

As I posted above:

Jews and Christians, of course, also believe that the truths of faith are in some sense beyond reason. They are above reason, but not (they hold) against reason. They are therefore prepared to make arguments about the reasonableness (not proof) of their faith without resort to particular religious authorities. These arguments may be bunk, but the great tradition of Jewish and Christian philosophy tries to make them. Their faith does not rest wholly upon faith, so to speak.

If we place aside all the stuff about Mormon revelation, what reasons can Mormons provide to believe their teachings? Suppose that the writer of this post has in fact read a stack of books by Mormon thinkers like B.H. Roberts, Richard Millet, etc. Suppose too that I have read the Mormon scriptures. Finally, after a great deal of reading these materials, suppose that I find them absolutely repugnant to reason. Now, why should I believe Mormon doctrines? Perhaps you can show me why reason alone would "point" in the direction of there being an infinity of gods, and that the gods were once men, and that we too can become gods and make our own universes. Christians and Jews provide arguments, though not absolute proofs, that it is reasonable to believe, for instance, that God is one, incorporeal, simple, good, omniscient. These, after all, were arguments found in Aristotle and other philosophers. How does the Mormon counter-argument go? Go on. I'm listening.

Thatcher,

God is by definition an immaterial spirit. He has no body and no material form. The material world is inherently lower and of less value than the spiritual, therefore it strikes me as highly offensive to imply that God is material.

God chose, at one point in time, to enter into a material form. He was able to do this because a higher being can always diminish a part of Himself and become something lower. But we should never forget that the human body is inherently lower than the disembodied intelligence which constitutes God. This is a measure of how much Christ loved us, that he was willing to descend to our level and undergo the degradation and indignity of having a material form. The creed does not say "he was a man from the beginning", it says "He _became_ incarnate of the Virgin Mary and was _made_ Man". The Mormons negate His great sacrifice when they act as though He was human and had a material body from the beginning. He did not have to incarnate Himself and put on human form. He _chose_ to undergo this trial and degradation as an act of love for us.

As for polygamy, Seth, I get worked up about it because it violates the love and self-giving that should be the basis of any sexual relationship, and because it turns women into objects for the pleasure of men. No man can have two masters, and neither can he have two wives.

Hector is being too heated and unkind, but he is getting at something.

How do Mormons show the reasonableness of believing in an infinity of created, anthropomorphic gods, that the gods were once men, and that we too can become gods and make our own universes?

And why don't they espouse these beliefs more openly? It would go a long way in taming anti-Mormon sentiment.

"God is by definition an immaterial spirit. He has no body and no material form. The material world is inherently lower and of less value than the spiritual, therefore it strikes me as highly offensive to imply that God is material."

I would argue that this merely reflects your cynical view of the material world, it doesn't reflect reality. Why should materiality be less superior? Because your limited experience of it has been less than perfect?

Why not broaden your mind to the possibilities?

I find a disembodied intelligence to be less appealing, less powerful, and less worthy of worship than a fully realized God who is my literal spirit Father. I'd much rather enter into a free relationship of allegiance loyalty and love than enter into some gooey predestined spiritual collective that traditional Christianity seems to be so wild about.

As for polygamy, you are simply being close-minded. Who says that polygamy is inherently doomed to be like it is on those compounds in Arizona? To clarify, my personal view is that polygyny, not polygamy is the eternal reality (but not necessarily for all of us). Why should there be room in the human heart for only one person? Especially when you remove the mortal realities of jealousy, insecurity, domination, and fear - why shouldn't marital bonds to more than one person work out just fine?

In the end, the fear of polygamy is based on selfishness and an unwillingness to reach out beyond our own personal concerns. Like I said, I think human flaws in mortality are too strong for polygamy to be a good idea here and now. If it were to be legalized, I would counsel my children against practicing it. But your views are far too crippled by your mortal concerns and mortal prejudices.

And what does traditional Christianity offer in return?

That I give up my marriage, my children, my mortal relationships in favor of entering into some gooey notion of "God's perfect love?" Rather than an eternity of voluntary and perfected human relationships, I can look forward to a loss of all individuality? No marriage in heaven? I'm just supposed to be happy about losing the special relationship I've cultivated with my wife because now I'll be joined in perfect love with everyone in the divine collective? And that is supposed to be better than polygamy?!

You say I've degraded God? No sir, it you who has degraded humanity.

You can have your predestined, coerced, catch-22, amorphous, incomprehensible heaven and God. I think I'll stick with mine thanks.

Ross, you asked essentially what the benefit is in believing Mormon doctrines. If you are interested the LDS Newsroom just posted an article today that addresses that exact question.

It surprisingly good and not the usual bland PR job we've come to expect from most large institutions.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/a-mormon-worldview

First of all, Mormons are Christians, in that they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the only name under heaven by which anyone can be saved in the Kingdom of Heaven.

They are not, to be sure, 'traditional Christians'. Because they do not subscribe to the post- and extra- Biblical creeds and teachings through which 'traditional Christianity' understands and interprets the Bible.

'Traditional Christianity', also to be certain, however, is NOT 'original Christianity'. Even the German school found the differences between First Century Christianity to be so different from that which came after to declare that First Century Christianity had to have been fabricated (which is was not).

Mormons do NOT believe preposterous assumptions one has to take to swallow, for example, the "incarnation of God" (the son becoming the father in the flesh), and then "wafting off" to become the Holy Ghost afterwards.

Mormons do NOT believe that--

-Jesus fathered himself.
-Jesus prayed to himself.
-Jesus threw his voice, like a ventriloquist, at his own baptism in the river Jordan, speaking as the Father from the sky, or doing some hocus pocus to have the Holy Ghost descending in the sign of a dove
-Jesus did not abandon himself on the cross ("My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me)
-Jesus did not ascend to himself (to Mary Magdalene- "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my father and to your father, to my God and to your God..."). Jesus saved the first post-resurrectional embrace to his Father. And, when he appeared shortly thereafter to his disciples, he not only allowed them THEN to touch his physical body, but indeed encouraged it.
-When Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of God, as he was being stoned to death, he was NOT saying that "God is beside himself". Our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are two separate personages. In mortality, the Son did the will of the Father. Jesus continues to do the will of the Father. And the Holy Ghost, as Jesus explained, bears testimony of both of them.

It is quite apparent that most of you have never read The Book of Mormon, or read it seriously. As LDS apologist Hugh Nibley pointed out, to assume that anyone can write a religious book, even a large religious book (over 500 pages) like The Book of Mormon, with so much in it that clearly bespeaks an authentic work, or in other words, to dismiss it out of hand, does not discredit it, as much as it runs away from it.

Nibley also asserted, "Show us ANYONE who has gotten within 10,000 miles of what Joseph Smith did."

READ the Book of Mormon. Consider its doctrine. There is much in it that is the same as in the Bible, because both came from the same essential source -- God!

But the Book of Mormon ALSO contributes much that is unique. For example, Alma the Younger, a 1st Century B.C. American prophet, gives a most interesting discourse to a son explaining how JUSTICE and MERCY are reconciled into one by the ATONEMENT of Jesus Christ.

Nephi, who lived in the 6th Century B.C., explains too how without the atoning sacrifice of Christ, that we all would have become subject to the devil, since justice would take a hold of us.

Enos, son of Nephi's younger brother, Jacob, shows, though only the word faith is mentioned in his account explicitly, how and why "Faith, Hope and Charity -- and the greatest of these is Charity" are intertwined. Indeed, he shows by his own personal experience, how he prayed with faith in Christ, seeking the "joy of the saints" he said he often heard his father speak of, until he received a remission of his sins from God. And, having thereby a HOPE in a bright resurrection, because of that forgiveness, and having thereby received the "love of God" (or Charity) for himself-- he felt Charity towards others. He then prayed for his own people, and received assurances from God. Then he prayed for his enemies, explaining therewith the natural progression of going from "loving your friends" to "loving your enemies" that Jesus Christ taught during his mortal ministry.

The Book of Abraham, contrary to what some suppose, was not shown to be a fake. Indeed, if one reads it, and compares it with much of what has been learned in the century and three quarters since Joseph Smith translated it (or received it by revelation), has so many details, unknowable to Joseph Smith by any human means then, but linked to so many manuscripts and legends about Abraham that have been brought to light since then.

In fact, it is in The Book of Abraham that we find the source of the Egyptians wisdom and proximity to much of early Judaism. Egypt, the Book of Abraham informs us was established by the daughter of Ham and Egyptus, whose name also was Egyptus. She set up her son, Pharoah, to be the first king. And all other kings after him, regardless of their name, were called Pharoah, just like all emperors of Rome of Julius Caesar were also called Caesar.

It is easy to dismiss The Book of Mormon and Mormonism out of hand. It is a far more difficult (in fact, I would assert, impossible) to show them to be a fraud. Though many have thought they have done this supposed service to mankind, I have found none that has.

--diligentdave

Seth,

Thanks for the link. But it does not touch on the point at hand. Fine sounding words are just that--words. But aren't we more interested in what those words mean? I do not believe that what Mormons mean by those words,and the history which gives them meaning, is at all consistent with human reason. Tell us how to see this is not the case?

Using all the words is not enough. Suppose that I ran a ministry in which I received communications about the life of a person named Jesus from people I thought were space aliens. I could create a whole religion around "Jesus" and how my followers believed in "Jesus" and how he and his "Father" gave meaning to our lives. You would not respect this kind of speech because the words have lost all connection to their meanings in shared contexts. This is what many people believe happens when Christians and Mormons try to talk.

Dave,

I appreciate your effort to contribute to understanding. But those efforts will have to be independent of your claims about Mormon revelation. There is not a single non-Mormon on earth who believes any of those events ever happened. So discussion based upon them is fruitless.

It is actually very easy to show where and how Joseph Smith would have had easy access to the ideas in the BOM. Mormon scholars have admitted as much. It's all there: Swedenborg, Freemasonry, the 19th century New England novel about the Jews coming to America, Smith's dabbling in magic and the occult, for which he was arrested even after the 'revelations.'

Re: the "incarnation of God" (the son becoming the father in the flesh), and then "wafting off" to become the Holy Ghost afterwards.

I don't know where you got the above, but it is definitely not orthodox Christian doctrine. I'm not sure that it was even taught by any heresy. Orthodox Christian doctrine is quite adamant that the Three Persons of the Trinity are Three Persons, in all eternity. They do not and never did "become" one another.

Re: Jesus fathered himself.
-Jesus prayed to himself.
-Jesus threw his voice, like a ventriloquist, at his own baptism in the river Jordan, speaking as the Father from the sky, or doing some hocus pocus to have the Holy Ghost descending in the sign of a dove
-Jesus did not abandon himself on the cross ("My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me)
-Jesus did not ascend to himself

See above. The Father begets the Son (I use the present because this is a condition of eternity, not a discrete historical event). Jesus prayed to the Father. The Father spoke at the Jordan. And (as the words from the Cross make clear) Jesus was addressing the Father using the words of a hallowed Psalm.
You seem really confused about orthodox Trinitarian doctrine. I agree it's about as complex as quantum physics in its fullest exposition, but your mistake is hard to make even if you have only a passing acquaintance with it. Here's an analogy (and I'm going out on a limb): no one suggests that the Legislature (Congress), the Executive (the president) and the Judiciary (the Supreme Court) are all the same entity. But they are all American Government, under the same Constitution. So it is with the Trinity, Three Persons of One Essence comprising the Godhead.

That analogy doesn't really work JonF,

The Executive, Legislature and Judiciary are three separate entities whose only affiliation is that they are in the same organization (and in a perfect world, unified in purpose and aim). That describes the MORMON view of the Godhead, not the traditional Christian view. There is no unity of "substance" between the branches of government.

Ross T. writes, "It is actually very easy to show where and how Joseph Smith would have had easy access to the ideas in the BOM. Mormon scholars have admitted as much. It's all there: Swedenborg, Freemasonry, the 19th century New England novel about the Jews coming to America, Smith's dabbling in magic and the occult, for which he was arrested even after the 'revelations.'"

No, it is not "very easy" Ross. I've seen all those claims and they present possibilities, but are not satisfactory. Each one of those sources has never been satisfactorily linked to Joseph Smith. Multiple independent sources agree that his education was quite poor (though not non-existent). There is little substantive evidence that Joseph ever came into contact with the writings of Swedenborg or the novel you mentioned. In fact, Joseph's Book of Mormon expressly doesn't fit the mold of the popular "Jews in America" writings that occasionally popped up in that time period. There are just too many major differences to conclude that Joseph was plagiarizing from them.

The connection between Freemasonry is much talked about, but is utterly insufficient to explain most of Mormon doctrine.

I've heard the theory that Joseph's follower Sidney Rigdon was the real brains behind the Book of Mormon. But to believe that requires a LOT of mental gymnastics and conspiracy-theory type thinking that is completely at odds with the historical record from multiple independent sources.

To me, the most plausible explanation is that Joseph had some sort of supernatural help in writing the Book of Mormon. His education and background simply are not agreeable with any other explanation. The only reason that people do not apply Occam's Razor here is because they've already closed their mind to the idea that the supernatural is even a possibility.

It is Mormon critics who are doing the wild conspiracy theories and mental gymnastics in attacking Mormonism. Because the implications of the Mormons actually having it right are simply unacceptable to them.

Seth,

You should read Richard Ostling's book "Mormon America," which does a thorough job of talking about Mormon scholars who themselves acknowledge just how ready-to-hand this information was to Joseph Smith. For instance, some of it even ran in a series of articles in his local newspaper. The novel, with a history much like of BOM, was written just a few years before in Vermont and was widely circulated. There are numerous other corroborations.

Is this "proof"? Of course not. And we will never settle this over a blog.

Religion can ruin minds. It can utterly lay waste to human intelligence. And that goes for many different faiths.

Mormons are actively seeking to enter the mainstream. This will come at a price. It means utter transparency in thought, doctrine and history. Mormons who believe this will be spiritually painless for them are in a world of hurt. Judaism and Christianity survived the attack of the Greek-Roman intellectual world, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and the many revolutions since. It was not easy. Not by a long shot. Mormonism has yet to dip a toe into this water. Beware. Modernity is a b*tch.

Ross T., if that is directed at me, you're barking up the wrong tree. I happen to be one of those Mormons who is unapologetic about our unique aspects, am not overly concerned whether we get the coveted "Christian" label, is not a Romney fan in the slightest, and is quite unenthusiastic about becoming a "normal" slice of Americana (whatever that means).

I probably should read Ostling's book sometime given how often it gets mentioned. Right now I'm simultaneously working on Richard Bushman's Joseph Smith biography, B.H. Roberts, and Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus." So my plate is a bit full at the moment.

Seth R.,

I don't pretend to know whether or not you will be married in Heaven or whether there will be sexual relationships or marriage or whatever. Jesus made one cryptic statement in a very specific context, as far as I know the New Testament doesn't say anything else on the topic. I'm not sure what the major churches say about the subject. personally I'm agnostic on the subject. although some of the creative literature about heaven does include imagery of loved ones being reunited with each other, so your hopes aren't necessarily incompatible with a non-Mormon understanding.

Regarding polygamy, you say that 'polygny (not polygamy) is the eternal reality." doesn't that right there point to a fundamental patriarchy in the way your religion views women? women are only allowed to have one husband, but men allowed to have many wives. why the difference, Seth?

what you call 'jealousy', i call attachment, and love. what you call insecurity, i call the true realization of the reality that we need each other and are dependent on each other. Rousseau said that without romantic love there can be no jealousy, and the converse is even more true- what you call insecurity, jealousy and fear are part and parcel of romantic love, and they are bound up with the idea of that relationship being exclusive, at least to one person at a time. polygamous 'love' is by its very nature maimed and defective.

Diligent Dave,

The idea of the atomenemet combining justice and mercy comes from St. Anselm, not from Nephi or Joseph Smith.

How is it that a monotheistic god is more reasonable than a poly or pantheistic god?

How is it that a trinity is more reasonable than a unity?

How is that a "good" god or an omniscient god is more reasonable than other ideas about god?

Just take a look around at all the imperfection in the Universe - oops!

What is reasonable about the story of Adam and Eve?

This is the most reasonable statement about god that I know of:

"The Tao that can be told is not the enternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the enternal name."

Who can honestly say that they know more than this?

Whoops. Sorry Hector, wrong word choice. I meant polyamory (which I believe means it applies equally to both sexes). I do not share your views on what love means. You've provided little reason to change that viewpoint.

Re: The Executive, Legislature and Judiciary are three separate entities whose only affiliation is that they are in the same organization (and in a perfect world, unified in purpose and aim).

I am aware that it was an imperfect one. Perhaps this comes closer: There are three primary colors of visible light (although their names depend on who is making the list). Each of these colors are unique and in no way prior or superior to the others, but each also partakes, fully and completely, of all the physical aspects of light (and electromagnetic raditaion in general). Again, an imperfect analogy, but I am trying to demonstrate that the concept of three-in-one (or more broadly even, muliplicity-in-unity) is not illogical or impossible for the human mind to entertain. And again, my earlier point stands: orthodox Christianity has NEVER proclaimed that the Father "is" the Son, or "becomes" the Son.

"I appreciate your effort to contribute to understanding. But those efforts will have to be independent of your claims about Mormon revelation. There is not a single non-Mormon on earth who believes any of those events ever happened. So discussion based upon them is fruitless."

Wrong - there are non-Mormons that do believe these things, but they are simply awaiting for baptism. Your statement is a bit silly since those that believe in Catholic doctrines usually tend to be Catholic, those that believe Adventist doctrines tend to be Adventist, those that believe these things about our church tend to join our church.

"It is actually very easy to show where and how Joseph Smith would have had easy access to the ideas in the BOM. Mormon scholars have admitted as much. It's all there: Swedenborg, Freemasonry, the 19th century New England novel about the Jews coming to America, Smith's dabbling in magic and the occult, for which he was arrested even after the 'revelations.'"

Really? I've had quite few discussions on line about these topics and the critics constantly have to shift there theories as to how Joseph Smith aquired the BoM. As for "Mormon scholars" who support your statement, the only ones I've read and debated with were MINOs (you can figure that one out). Many critics can't hold to a single hypothesis on how Joseph obtained the BoM and they have to keep shifting because they keep running into major contradictions. Your idea of, "it was all at Joseph's fingertips" gets a bit ridiculous because of all the books Joseph (and/or his conspirators) would have to have at their disposal they could build a new library of Alexandria. Even then there are many things that were unknown, or were falsly believed at the time, that the BoM gets right as further data is aquired. Maybe Joseph had access to Doc's DeLorian?? Maybe he was the one who invented the internet and not Al Gore!

It is a long topic and I do recommend those interested can discuss it over at LDSFAIR.org - one of the better moderated LDS discussion sites.

Finally, I'm a science guy at heart, and I'm I strong believer in my faith. Our faith makes bold claims like, if one is honest in their desire to know, they will recieve personal revelation verifying the truth of these things. We believe in miracles, and from the experiences I've had while serving in Peru - the science guy in me has been forever satisfied. So, your request to take God and miracles out of the equation, then prove that our church is divine is like saying, "take the H2O out of the ocean and then prove it is wet."

After reading this debate with considerable sadness at its generally intemperate tone, as a moderate, not particularly dogmatic Episcopalian, I have just three comments on the responses to the rational, fair-minded inquiry that Ross has been endeavoring to conduct on this topic: (1) we should all quietly reflect on the force of William's quotation from the Tao Te Ching, ""The Tao that can be told is not the enternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name" and reflect on how little we finite individual beings can know for certain; (2) LarryMoeandJesus and other likeminded bloggers ought to reflect how silly (not just offensive, but childish) their repeated characterizations of believers as fools appears to someone who, like me, happens to have three degrees from Harvard and Yale; and (3) we might all bite our tongues for a moment while reflecting on Christ's commandment that we judge not, lest we ourselves be judged. I happen to think there is a place for recent (dare I say latter-day) mythology if, as Ross says, it yields good fruits -- if, for example, reading Tolkein's fundamentally Catholic "subcreational" mythology gives someone beneficial religious insights, do we care whether that person believes literally or figuratively in Tolkein's worldview? As Ross says, that should be the touchstone of whether Mormonism as practised today, after whatever process it has followed in believing or disbelieving in the historicity of the BOM, is (a) benign and (b) categorizable as Christian or as something sui generis.

Thank you Ned. Agree whole-heartedly.

There are two methods of arguing: one is to convince the other person, the other is to convince bystanders that way be watching. It's pretty clear this thread is in the latter category.

While I'm LDS and happen to (unsurprisingly) thus side with the LDS in this argument, if I started knowing none of the facts involved I would end up learning mainly that

(a) educated Mormons assert some set of historical facts regarding Joseph Smith or the Nephites

and

(b) educated non-Mormons deny that set of facts

Maybe that's all that can be hoped for but...

Keep trying. I really am waiting for someone on the flip side of this debate to say something interesting. It would be nice to hear an argument that doesn't implicitly assume that secular commentators are just, somehow totally oblivious to some important set of facts or feelings or whatever the hell it is the religious people think they've tuned their souls into that justifies their beliefs. There has been a big push to try to show that secular arguments are really based on some kind of plain, ordinary ignorance. This bullshit line doesn't even come close:

"the major plausibility issue facing Mormonism isn't when and where and how long ago the events crucial to the religion are supposed to have taken place, but whether the Mormon account of those events feels persuasive as a historical narrative."

This is an empty, inarguable proposition that presupposes that Christians (et cetera) have some kind of innate, intuitive concept of what counts as "persuasive historical narrative" that secularists are blind and deaf to. This is just absurd. The resurrection of Jesus is at least as crazy a thing to believe as his supposed journey to North America. For two millennia, generations upon generations of Christians have earnestly, deeply believed that they would live to see the end of times. The original followers of Jesus thought the end was nigh. You would think after a few centuries the attitude about Armageddon would be discredited. But it lives on, and it's a stupid belief, whether the person in question got his degree at Harvard or dropped out of middle school.

What precisely about the worship of Baal is ludicrous where the worship of Yahweh isn't? Have the religious people here ever really even tried to understand what it means to have norms emanating from a particular set of religious ideas rather than another? Is it really so hard to imagine the hypothetical scenario where you imagine yourself an adherent of a different religion, and then try to examine your own beliefs through that prism? It seems simple enough to me, but then, I've been forced to perform this kind of calculation all my life, since I don't believe in God and am surrounded by people who do, and I would be in a poor position if I could not put myself in their shoes.

In the meantime, enough is enough with the "secularist's just don't get it" strain of argumentation. It's condescending, which irks me, but more importantly, it's just wrong. It works in lieu of having to accept a disheartening claim such as the one Mr. Douthat is trying to very hard to discredit. If he wasn't arguing in bad faith, he might actually come up with something worthwhile.

Wow! Definitely a lot of religious scholars on this blog. I am not one of them. After scanning through everyones comments etc... all the data everyone provided from science and theological scholars (even the obvious haters of religion and people who are different than they are - and yes, I am from the millenial generation so I can say "haters")...seems like all of this combined together really makes one wish two things;
1. God speaks to a prophet in this day to help clarify and 2. Prayer with sincere intent actually works...wait - those do exist.

check out http://whatusmormonsbelieve.blogspot.com
for more stuff out of the mouths of every day mormons who love God and Jesus Christ...and think that a lot of the anti-mormon comments are more funny than offensive. (I once had a friend ask why we couldnt eat twinkies...said he read it in the Mormon book, I about died laughing. Every knows its the Moon Pies we can't eat. LOL)

James,

I would agree that much anti-Mormon sentiment is uninformed and silly and mean. How can this be eliminated? One way is for Mormons to be much more public about their distinctive truth claims, rather than submerging their religion in quasi-evangelical personal narratives and confessions of faith.

Mormons want to enter the wider culture in a more forthright manner. I say great. Let's have it. They have things to contribute to our culture--no doubt! But this comes at a price. It comes with the demand for complete and utter transparency in matters of Mormon history, doctrine and church practice. Welcome to modernity. As it was for some Jews and Christians, it will occasion much spiritual anguish for Mormons. Enlightenment thought...historical-critical inquiry...it will be painful. Careful for what you ask.

Brent,

Thanks for the comment and acknowledgement. I agree. If we want to become mainstream we probably would have to open the past and look at the imperfections of people who led our church. That would be hurtful. I am sure there would be a lot. A lot of our past church leaders have been ex-communicated...and that doesnt go very far back. It reminds me of King David and Bethsheba. Remember - the same David whom the "Lord Loved". It also reminds me of Joshua procrastinating going to war (kind of like Joseph Smith procrasting commandments he recieved, and now he is being condemned for changing his mind on somethings). It also reminds me of the bitterness that existed between Paul and some of the "original" apostles who couldnt come to accept Pauls discipleship.

No one is perfect - not even men of God. That is the burden of mortality. So be it.

I personally dont care about the personal weaknesses of man, and if they take care of repentence - it is between them and God. I don't need to be involved.

And since there is so much false info out there - I choose not to dive into anything I hear. I know that the real men of God took care of what they did wrong, and those who didn't - it is completely in the light of day what the church did about it.

Now - regarding the Church as an entitity and going mainstream.

I have never heard that the church want to go mainstream. I think the world wants to know more about the Mormons, and Mormons want to share their faith and beliefs. That probably looks like we want to be mainstream. I am sure there are some in our faith who want to be accepted by mainstream Christianity, and that is fine. But I have never heard Mormon press releases, statements at the pulpit or church authorities mention that we need that kind of acceptance.

Sure we would like others to recognize that we are Christian. But those are the same people who dont believe Catholics arent Christian. So there isnt much validation to their claim anyhow. It is one groups definition vs. anothers. I believe the best definition for a christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ...and yes, that would mean many Mormons, Evangelicals, Catholics, Baptists, etc arent Christian.

Regarding Mormon Secrecy.

What goes on in the temple is no secret. Ultimately - we make covenants of chastity, charity, and obedience to Christs commandments in the temple. Our garments are symbolic of those covenants and reminders. There is really nothing more to them than that - no matter what the anti-mormons would like you to believe. We also believe that we can act in proxy for those deceased persons who did not have the opportunity in their mortality. We are not claiming to save them. We believe that there are necessary ordinances like baptism, that must be done on earth in mortality. We believe that these deceased persons, while waiting for judgement day, have the opportunity to accept or reject these proxy ordinances.

The ultimate proxy ordinance done on this earth, that had to be done here and nowhere else was the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He suffered for our sins. He paid the price. He died for us.

It is our choice to accept or reject.

In the same nature that the Jews in Old Testament times held things to be sacred, so do we. So we dont go into detail. Why would we. Those who are so demanding we be more open, dont accept our basic tenants. Why would they give any validation to our most sacred tenants.

gerontion, why are you so filled with hate? Please do a bit of self-reflection.

Your first knee-jerk response to my post was to assert that I believe in a literal eschaton. Why on earth would you think that? I identified myself as a non-dogmatic Episcopalian. How many non-dogmatic Episcopalians do you think believe in a literal eschaton?

I was raised as an agnostic, because my father was an angry atheist and my mother was a Jungian agnostic. Like Jung, I put myself through the prism of imagining myself a child of many world religions. My reference to the Tao Te Ching might have tipped that off. I found a non-dogmatic Christianity to be the best place for me, primarily through the influence of W. H. Auden and people like him. You may consider me wrong, and of course I realize I may be wrong, but to treat me as a fool is silly. In future, please try to conduct a rational discussion like a grown-up. You have no idea how your zealotry tends to discredit your positions (perhaps unfairly) in my eyes and in the eyes of other fair-minded people.

Ned

Re: William James and the Sethians

One aspect of this thread uses William James' criterion to ask, leaving aside whether the events narrated in the BOM may appear preposterous to us individually as literal history, does literal or figurative adherence to the BOM make a pragmatic difference in the lives of those adherents: do we admire the way people who believe in the BOM behave ethically (perhaps better than we ourselves) and what particular aspects of the BOM do we consider to be beneficent, harmless or detrimental from that perspective?

In this regard, I mean actual Mormons today, not their great-grandparents. I would no more attibute the evils of racism and polygamy to present-day Mormons than the evils of the 16thC Inquisition to present-day Christians or the evils of Stalinism to present-day militant atheists. Mankind's capacity for evil and perversion of ideals is, unfortunately, an equal opportunity employer.

On a lighter note, has anyone read Patrick O'Brien's account of the Sethians in one of his Aubrey/Maturin novels? They are an imaginary 18thC sect with a flamboyant mythology reminiscent of William Blake, all based on one of Adam's lesser known sons, Seth. But individual Sethians are among the most thoughtful, mature, diligent, responsible and likable members of Aubrey's crew. How Aubrey tactfully respects their shibboleths and benefits from their admirable qualities is treated with considerable wry humor.