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Iraq in 2008 (And Beyond)

14 Feb 2008 09:58 am

The polls I cited yesterday, showing minimal support for a sustained U.S. military presence in Iraq, go to what I think is an underlying misjudgment that many conservatives are making about the surge and its impact on the domestic debate about the Iraq War. John Podhoretz, for instance, wrapping up a lengthy and very much worth-reading essay on the GOP's fortunes and Iraq, argues that the Democrats' post-surge failure to push through legislation mandating withdrawal means that "when it comes to Iraq, [the Democrats], too, appear to be at cross-purposes with a substantial body of American public opinion." Which leads him to this optimistic conclusion:

It is a great irony that the best political news for Republicans in a notably unfavorable election year—with the public telling pollsters that it is desirous of change and prefers Democratic stands on most issues by margins ranging from ten to twenty points—may come out of Iraq. Should the surge’s progress continue and deepen, the Democratic nominee may find himself or herself in a very uncomfortable position come autumn. The Democratic base will not have changed its mind about the war’s evil, and it will not be happy with a leader who does. So the nominee will find it almost impossible to embrace the surge, and certainly not after having disparaged it caustically in the past. But if the nominee does not embrace the real possibility of victory in Iraq, he or she will run the risk of appearing defeatist, or worse, in the eyes of the same independent voters who fled the GOP in droves in 2006.

So the GOP can hope. But I think Podhoretz overstates the impact that the surge has had thus far on public sentiment about Iraq. “Absent the surge strategy and the new way forward that it offered,” he writes, “Democrats would probably have prevailed on their declared intention to force a pullback from Iraq in 2007.” I agree. But it does not follow from this statement that our recent successes have done anything to fundamentally reverse the dynamic that pushed independent voters into the arms of the Dems in 2006. The adoption of the new strategy in Iraq had two major effects on the domestic debate, so far as I can tell: First, it stiffened conservative support for the war effort, which had begun to waver around the '06 midterms, and thereby placed GOP legislators in a position where they could not cross party lines to vote for withdrawal without forfeiting the support of their own base. (See Gilchrest, Wayne) Second, by reducing the body count and arresting Iraq’s spiral down to civil war, it pushed the conflict off the front pages and often out of the public eye entirely. This achievement didn’t increase support for the war, but it did reduce, at least on the margins, the priority that Americans placed on ending it, and allowed closer-to-home anxieties – over health care, the mortgage meltdown, immigration and now the looming recession – to rise to the fore.

This combination was sufficient to blunt Democratic momentum on the issue, and it allowed a determined President to rally his own party to stay the course, at least for the time being. But winning a battle on Capitol Hill when you control the White House and enjoy a sizable Senate minority is very different from winning a debate in the general election, and on that front, at least, the most that can be said is that the surge has reduced the advantage that Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton will enjoy this fall on Iraq, by increasing support for the war (and thus turnout, presumably) among once-wilting conservatives, and diminishing, if only slightly, the struggle’s salience for independent voters.

This is no small achievement, given where things stood, both in Iraq and at home, in November 2006. Indeed, it may be an achievement that keeps the United States in Iraq for many years to come. For one thing, the surge’s on-the-ground successes may make it nearly-impossible for even Barack Obama to pull the trigger on withdrawal, given how completely the country’s stability – and with it, the region’s – seems to depend on a large-scale and aggressive American presence. For another, the domestic dynamic the surge has created – where the war is unpopular but no longer dominating the public discourse, and where a vocal minority of Americans supports it unreservedly – have placed a continued occupation on a more solid footing, for the reasons that John Robb lays out here among others.

But the fact that the war effort may be sustainable in the teeth of public opposition doesn’t come close to making Iraq a winning issue for the Republican Party in the ’08 general election. Nowhere in the polls have I seen the sort of turnaround in public sentiment that many hawks seem to assume is taking place. Majorities continue to see the war as a mistake, victory unlikely, and withdrawal as our best option, and the numbers have barely budged since last January. The only number I've seen that justifies any conservative optimism is the percentage of Americans saying that the surge is improving the situation in Iraq, which has ticked up to close to 40 percent after being in the 20s at the beginning of the year. But this uptick seems to be primarily a case of the war recovering conservative support; it hasn't had any effect on the overall pro-withdrawal, anti-war majority.

Now it’s possible that having the popular John McCain as the war’s spokesman, rather than the discredited George W. Bush, will shift the numbers; it’s possible, too, that the polls on when and how we should withdraw are a lagging indicator, and that if progress “continues and deepens,” as Podhoretz puts it, the public will eventually come around. But for now, at least, conservatives are placing their hopes for 2008 in shifts in public opinion that no eye has seen and no ear has heard.

Comments (53)

it did reduce, at least on the margins, the priority that Americans placed on ending it, and allowed closer-to-home anxieties – over health care, the mortgage meltdown, immigration and now the looming recession – to rise to the fore.

Right. If things in Iraq go as well (relatively speaking) as they have been recently, the focus of the election will be on domestic issues, which so far is playing in the Democrats' favor. If things turn south in Iraq, the election will focus on the war in a way that will play... in the Democrats' favor.

I don't envision a scenario in which things in Iraq suddenly go so amazingly well that it discredits the entire anti-war effort. It would probably require General Petraeus to personally discover Osama bin Laden on live TV in a Baghdad basement with a stockpile of nukes.

I think, more than anything, this reflects the fundamental good sense of the classic conservative position that, ultimately, America's foreign interests must be secondary to out domestic interest. Look, I'm a liberal, and I hate to be the kind of political thinker who attempts to climb into the mind of "the other side" and make proclamations about what they really feel. But for the life of me I've never been quite able to understand the disconnect between conservative social policy and their recent embrace of democracy-fostering and nation building. What possible coherent moral ethic has never ending patience when it comes to helping the people of Iraq, but not the people of Detroit? How can any unified political vision believe both that there is no limit to what we owe to the people of a foreign country, but that we owe nothing as a society to the poor and disenfranchised in our own country? Who could combine the loud nationalism of contemporary conservatism with the seeming preference for the people of Iraq over the people of our country?

I think there is a simple feeling that it is unnatural for our soldiers to be permanently stationed in Iraq. (I'm sure there are those who would ask why it's okay to station troops in Germany and not in Iraq; personally, I'd prefer we got out of there, too, but that's a bigger discussion.) I think it's perfectly natural to want our own troops home, where we have work to do, instead of propping up a foreign country indefinitely-- especially when that propping up might be damaging that country's progress in fixing itself.

Thanks for this thoughtful, well-supported post.

Leaving aside the lack of progress on the benchmarks, the surge hasn't been a resounding PR success here, other than shoring up the base. And McCain has said some things that might damage him in the general election, like about staying there for 10,000 years. GOP primary voters may be OK with that, but most people are not. I think that's McCain's glass jaw, and that Obama will be able to hit him hard.

As a Democrat who supported this war, I've become more conservative. As in, Dwight Eisenhower conservative, not the stuff coming from the GOP and its affiliates today. As far as getting inside their heads, Freddie, I think that this comment nails it:

Movement ‘conservatism’ has roughly the same intellectual content as being, say, a Milwaukee Brewers fan.

Throw away your Burke and Oakeshott and get a big foam “We’re #1 finger”, because that’s the level at which movement ‘conservatism’ is conducted.

We invaded Iraq, hippie liberals opposed it, therefore we're winning and opponents are lying and hate America and want to surrender to Osama bin Laden. Whereas Detroit has a bunch of lazy, Democrat-loving black people in it. See, there's no contradiction at all!

As to your larger point, Freddie, about where a country's troops belong, it seems to me your view is the opposite of the "splendid little war," national greatness conservatism of Sen. McCain.

You're likely right, Ross, but perhaps the campaign might matter more than you suppose. And whether McCain can turn it into a plus versus Obama may turn on whether the debate is over (a) whether we should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place or (b) what we should be doing there now? If it's (a), then Obama clearly has an advantage (Clinton would have less of one - indeed she would likely be stuck in Kerry-land of trying to persuade voters that she had *no idea* that the administration would use the authorization of force to, well, use force). But if it's (b), it's not at all clear to me that Obama does nearly so well. Indeed, his recent hedging on whether he would actually pull troops out forthwith reflects at least a calculation that while voters may not like the war, they especially won't like losing one. (And whatever an Obama administration might say about it being Bush's fault - and they'd be at least partially right - if Iraq went south hard after an American pullout, he'd be the guy on the spot). So if McCain can shift Obama into debating what to do *next* in Iraq, I don't think the idea that war is an electoral loser seems as airtight. (Note that this assumes that things continue to improve).

More fundamentally, the problem with the Republicans on Iraq is no matter what they lose. If the surge is a success beyond all our wildest dreams, then people will say we should be able to bring our troops home. If the surge fails, the answer will be it is time to bring the troops home. What the GOP is failing to grasp is that the American people moved on from 'winning' the Iraq War. I like others think we won it. The question being asked is "Why are we still there?" The Republicans aren't addressing that question.

John Podhoretz, neocon liar is worth reading. Says You.Neocon bastards are good only at lying and rationalizing their failed policies. Their policies have destroyed the Republican party and will make Obama the next president of the United States.

The war will be a stone around the neck of the US for a long time.
Let's not forget the horrible mistakes made at the beginning of this disaster.

Here is a video I directed about the looting of the Iraqi National Museum. It consists of an interview with Dr. Donny George, the former director, and images of the destruction. Below is the link.

http://www.scribemedia.org/2008/02/07/looting-the-iraqi-national-museum/

The war will be a stone around the neck of the US for a long time.
Let's not forget the horrible mistakes made at the beginning of this disaster.

Here is a video I directed about the looting of the Iraqi National Museum. It consists of an interview with Dr. Donny George, the former director, and images of the destruction. Below is the link.

http://www.scribemedia.org/2008/02/07/looting-the-iraqi-national-museum/

The war will be a stone around the neck of the US for a long time.
Let's not forget the horrible mistakes made at the beginning of this disaster.

Here is a video I directed about the looting of the Iraqi National Museum. It consists of an interview with Dr. Donny George, the former director, and images of the destruction. Below is the link.

http://www.scribemedia.org/2008/02/07/looting-the-iraqi-national-museum/

The question being asked is "Why are we still there?" The Republicans aren't addressing that question.

I believe that they are answering the question, just not in any serious, intellectually credible fashion. "But if we pull out, the terrorists will win/be emboldened!" is fundamentally unserious.

It is entirely possible that the real reason the Republicans are failing to provide credible answers to that question, and others pertinent to their foreign policy programme, is simply that the answers would never pass muster, and might send the GOP into a multi-generational political wilderness trek.

Someone wake up MLJ! Ross is finally posting about Iraq.

The war will be a stone around the neck of the US for a long time. Let's not forget the horrible mistakes made at the beginning of this disaster.

Here is a video I directed about the looting of the Iraqi National Museum. It consists of an interview with Dr. Donny George, the former director, and images of the destruction. Below is the link.

http://www.scribemedia.org/2008/02/07/looting-the-iraqi-national-museum/

Quietus says: "Someone wake up MLJ! Ross is finally posting about Iraq."

Yes, and he even made some sense, in a quasi-warmongering sort of way. I think he's wrong about this "near-impossibility" of an Obama "pulling the trigger" (yeesh) on withdrawal, though. A new president could quickly make the argument that there are two classes of war profiteers in Iraq - both the Halliburtons and the corruptocrats in the "sovereign" Iraqi government. The first class owes no allegiance to anyone, of course, and has no incentive to help make things better in Iraq because they'll continue to make money (presumably) as long as a massive US presence is there. The second class - the puppet government - is getting rich off of American aid both directly and indirectly. They're skimming off the top from American aid and then finding ways to solicit bribes from Iraqis who want in on the gravy train.

A new president can poin these things out and present the Iraqis with GENUINE demands for fast improvement and cooperation. The Bushpigs haven't had any success with this - I'd conclude that they really don't give a ripe damn about improvement, since what they've really wanted all along is a long-term massive American presence in Iraq. This isn't what the American people want, and it shouldn't be hard for an honest, competent president to make that case. In Dumbya Bush we've had a perpetual liar and a confirmed incompetent, and the new president will have a lot of leeway if he (and I mean Obama) isn't either of those things.

The key part of Podhoretz's argument is:

Meanwhile, the candidate most associated with the surge, John McCain, will (assuming he becomes the nominee of the Republican party) be uniquely well situated to deploy an accusation he has been leveling at the Democratic frontrunners for nearly a year. “I was very disappointed to see Senator Obama and Senator Clinton embrace the policy of surrender by voting against funds to support our brave men and women fighting in Iraq,” McCain said about a vote the two Democrats cast in May 2007. He called this “the equivalent of waving a white flag of surrender to al Qaeda.”
As his campaign took off in January 2008, McCain sharpened the dagger:
Candidate Clinton has called for surrender and waving the white flag. I think it’s terrible. I think it’s terrible. . . . For us to do what Senator Clinton wants us to do—that is to wave the white flag—I cannot guarantee United States security in the region or in the United States.

The American people soured on this war mostly due it's apparent loss; now that Petraeus's change of strategy has made substantial progress, McCain should be able to convince a majority of Americans that Obama's international strategy is naive and that on crucial Senate votes he opposed funding the war.

Many pundits have been talking about the inevitability of a Democratic win in 2008, just as they did in 2004. So far this year the pundits have been frequently upended; we shall see in November.

What progress? Neocons lies are never ending. First they claimed Americans would be welcomed with roses. Then they claimed Iraqis would love to be ruled by Ahmad the Thief. Now they are lying by claiming a stalemate is victory.

This has been a very interesting discussion.

I just wanted to take up a particular bugbear of mine:

But for the life of me I've never been quite able to understand the disconnect between conservative social policy and their recent embrace of democracy-fostering and nation building.

I honestly haven't seen an embrace of democracy and nation building. I've seen a ramping up of rhetoric, accompanied by the invasion of Iraq and Musharraf and Mubarak left entirely alone, six-plus years into the freedom agenda.

This only matters because I'm concerned that the backlash against Bush may lead to the idea of *genuine* democracy promotion being discredited. There are ways to spread democracy other than at gunpoint and those ways are very much worth persisting with.

Will a Democrat in the White House make the same mistake that congressional Democrats made in 1975 when they pulled all funding from our support of the South Vietnamese, and allowed an ensuing bloodbath in Southeast Asia - thereby ceding the national security issue to the Republicans for a generation?

If a Democrat pulls the troops out of Iraq post haste and it subseqently becomes a bloodbath, the Democrats will again cede the national security issue to the Republicans - for at least another generation, if not longer.

Mark writes: "What progress? Neocons lies are never ending. First they claimed Americans would be welcomed with roses. Then they claimed Iraqis would love to be ruled by Ahmad the Thief. Now they are lying by claiming a stalemate is victory."

Right - and their "victory" involves us staying there for decades - at least! - with Americans dying all along, and huge expenditures required to keep the "victory" going. And they dare to compare it with the ongoing American presences in Japan and Germany, where the greatest danger our soldiers face is the possibility of getting laid on a regular basis.

The notion that McCain can win by talking about "white flags" for 8+ months depends on the con belief that Americans can be fooled by that sort of nonsense in perpetuity. I think that as far as Iraq is concerned that's over.

The reason for the descent of relative quietude upon Iraq is simply that our counter-insurgency/surge strategy amounts to paying part of the insurgency to no longer be the insurgency. This is not a solution; it's a holding maneuver, and it appears to accomplished its purpose, taking Iraq off of the front pages of the newspapers and the top of the teleprompters.

Look, none of this is about "victory", whatever the hell that would mean at this stage; this is about global democratic hegemony, the sort of folderol bandied about in numerous strategic papers (The "Wolfowitz Indiscretion", etc.), and adumbrated for readers of the Weekly Standard as "national greatness conservatism". Iraq is one of the payouts of this strategic vision, and McCain seems eager to deliver further, um, dividends.

Douthat misses that polls seem to trail events on the ground in Iraq. Support for the War was still strong when experts began noting the lack of a postwar plan, Bremer's catastrophic decision-making blunders, Rumsfeld's dithering, and Bush's inarticulate stewardship had helped create a crisis where things were truly going to hell in Iraq.
Now, with Al Qaeda's main global strength being destroyed in Iraq, with Sunni help, with deaths sharply down and progress starting again, the polls lag the reality...and also fail to account for the price of a Democrat Party defeat of America.

Right now, the assumption is that the US leaves, and nothing happens other than Iraqis slaughtering one another. People locked into the Vietnam template that the slaughter was only localized to Indochina, the global economy wasn't much affected, and the Soviets, Cubans running wild in 14 countries from ElSalvador to Afghanistan from 1975-180 was eventually contained, as were the Islamic Revolutions that saw defeated America as too weak to stop their ascendency in Iran, Lebanon, Zia's Pakistan, and the Wabbahist triumph in KSA.

A Defeat & Retreat in Iraq would possibly be far worse, with open nuclear arms races going on in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey. With Oil at 200 a barrel, other nations convinced America's Democrat Party will turn and run if any level of light wartime casualties are inflicted. Wonderful time as well for the Russians and Chinese to move in to the power vacuum and seek control over a good portion of ME oil and gas supplies, moving Russia back to full superpower status as the country that calls the shots regarding who gets what from 70% of the oil sources and 60% of natural gas.

With Obama convinced that if he is only as nice as Mr Carter was, as willing to talk, that everything can get resolved in a gentlemanly fashion...

McCain should warn of the downside of surrender, and people in America should accept that Democrats have an opportunity to either do or not do "the S Vietnam backstab, abandon Cambodia to genocide" act again. And hold the Democrats accountable to the consequences they create.

Chris the Cambodians do not blame America for abandoning them, they blame us for the massive B52 bombing raids that cause 2 million refugees to flee to the capital. They also blame us for supporting the overthrow of their beloved King Sihanouk by the military dictatorship of Gen. Lon Nol and the subsequent takeover by the Khmer Rouge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia#History If you had spent as much time as I have there you might know better of what you speak.

Sounds like you were hanging with the sort of Cambodian people that dispatched the other sort of Cambodians in the Killing Fields, Ryan.

The communist killing only started when US Democrats abandoned S Vietnam and Cambodia. I'm sure that some Cambodians blame us for their troubles, but the ones with blood on their hands were the N Vietnamese for invading a neutral country as using it as sanctuary until Nixon determined the military necessity for ending Sanctuary. And of course the Chinese for supporting the Khymer Rouge and the Rouge Maoists themselves for unspeakable butchery. But butchery that only happened because because the liberal Democrat backstab collapsed the makeshift Cambodian government as surely as it did the S Vietnamese one and opened the way to the genocide.

Wonderful time as well for the Russians and Chinese to move in to the power vacuum and seek control over a good portion of ME oil and gas supplies, moving Russia back to full superpower status as the country that calls the shots regarding who gets what from 70% of the oil sources and 60% of natural gas.

Thought experiment: what if these are not merely prognostications of what will occur in the event of an American withdrawal, but were, years ago, predictions (more or less) of what might transpire if America did not go in? We're damned if we don't go in, and damned if, having gone in, we withdraw. This thought experiment does make more comprehensible the fulsome coddling of Central Asian autocrats (not that regime change is a wonderful idea, but sheesh, the way these sanguinary tyrants are fawned over is unseemly), and the odd persistence of Russian bear-baiting.

Someone wake up MLJ! Ross is finally posting about Iraq.

Well, sort of. He's posting about the politics of the Iraq War.

Ross' position on the Iraq war he still has not made mention of since about September. But, I mean, who'd want to hear his opinion? He's just paid by a national magazine to write his opinion about things. Hardly seems fair to expect him to talk substantively about the war that his country is fighting.

DivGuy says: "Ross' position on the Iraq war he still has not made mention of since about September. But, I mean, who'd want to hear his opinion? He's just paid by a national magazine to write his opinion about things. Hardly seems fair to expect him to talk substantively about the war that his country is fighting."

Maybe he has bigger car-fish decals to fry, DivGuy. People have suggested that Saint Reagan wasn't pure, and poor black people have been spotted with BIG TVs. Yes, war is important, but the Culture War is a sacred duty. Besides, Steve Sailer gives out free Toby Keith cds to any blog owner who mentions him. Ten mentions and you're an honorary Aryan Brotherhood member.

Anyone carefully and fairly analyzing the war in Iraq, which seemed hopeless until about a year ago, has to understand that great military and some political progress has been made in a part of the world with vital American interests at stake.

If the GOP thinks that their calling the surge a success somehow justifies our invasion of Iraq...they best remember most Americans still see Iraq as one of the most disasterous foreign policy blunders in U.S. history...and the blood is on the hands of the GOP.

Will a Democrat in the White House make the same mistake that congressional Democrats made in 1975 when they pulled all funding from our support of the South Vietnamese, and allowed an ensuing bloodbath in Southeast Asia - thereby ceding the national security issue to the Republicans for a generation?

If a Democrat pulls the troops out of Iraq post haste and it subseqently becomes a bloodbath, the Democrats will again cede the national security issue to the Republicans - for at least another generation, if not longer.

What definition of "bloodbath" doesn't already comprehenisvely cover the misadventure in Iraq. Hundreds of thousands dead, million displaced, more dead American troops than civilian deaths in the WTC. Only in American politics could the party that created and managed for six years such a bloody and failed conflict could the opposition party be considered weak on national security for ending it.

No wonder you're anonymous.

These arguments are all fine a good for those who read heady blogs like this.

But Obama/Clinton still have to come up -- for the masses -- with a simple one-sentence answer for the inevitable one-sentence question that's going to be thrown at them:

"The surge is working, pulling out now will turn a victory into a defeat"

So, somebody tell me, what's the simple one-sentence response to that, that will play "in the heartland"?

The surge has given us great progress. We've taken the intolerable situation of 2006 and gotten it back to the barely tolerable situation of 2005. If we keep trying, maybe we can get back to 2002, when the contry was ruled by a brutal dictator who, for all his faults, could at least keep order.

Iraq is a failure and all we can do is figure out the best way of getting out. The McCain policy is stay forever and hopes something gets better. It is a policy that is going to hurt our military strength, squander the lives of these brave young men and women, bankrupt our nation, weaken us internationally, and make us less safe. As for the "Straight Talk Express," it is gone -- if it ever existed. McCain has bailed on being an opponent of torture because torturing people is now a fundamental conservative principle. He's a bitter and angry old man, willing to do anything to get what he thinks is his due -- the Presidency. If you enjoyed the inflexiblity and stubborness of George Bush, you'll love John McCain.

The surge has given us great progress. We've taken the intolerable situation of 2006 and gotten it back to the barely tolerable situation of 2005. If we keep trying, maybe we can get back to 2002, when the contry was ruled by a brutal dictator who, for all his faults, could at least keep order.

Iraq is a failure and all we can do is figure out the best way of getting out. The McCain policy is stay forever and hopes something gets better. It is a policy that is going to hurt our military strength, squander the lives of these brave young men and women, bankrupt our nation, weaken us internationally, and make us less safe. As for the "Straight Talk Express," it is gone -- if it ever existed. McCain has bailed on being an opponent of torture because torturing people is now a fundamental conservative principle. He's a bitter and angry old man, willing to do anything to get what he thinks is his due -- the Presidency. If you enjoyed the inflexiblity and stubborness of George Bush, you'll love John McCain.

"The surge is working, pulling out now will turn a victory into a defeat"

So, somebody tell me, what's the simple one-sentence response to that, that will play "in the heartland"?

What M.Z. Forrest said. The American people, including the heartland, want out. If the surge is working, great lets get out. If its not working, great lets get out.

"So, somebody tell me, what's the simple one-sentence response to that, that will play "in the heartland"?"

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Nothing we do in Iraq makes the US any safer, and staying will not make the US any safer.

The terrorists want us to stay in Iraq because it's easier for them to kill our soldiers when we're in their backyard.

You're not a defeatist if you always thought the war was a bad idea. That makes you a realist.

Such "you are surrendering" arguments miss the point, because IT'S NOT FOR US TO DECIDE what type of government Iraq or any other middle east country wants.

These neo con arguments amount to a stupid academic theory that installing secular western style democracies in the middle east will set off a "reverse domino effect" causing other countries in the region to make the change. It's a fun academic theory, but not worth risking lives and money.

And really, the heartlanders don't need sloganeering. They understand what's going on. Although sloganeering may get through to the neo con sheep cultishly repeating the things they hear every day on the mind suck that is talk radio and rightie blogs.

Sadly, bloodbaths are a dime a dozen. It's a joke to believe that we can continue to garrison Iraq with this level of troops indefinitely, and the only thing that will happen is that an Iraqi government will magically come around. There's no indication that any national government will come around., much less one that could stand alone. We have to face the fact that Iraq will go down as a failed state, and we have to start formulating some post-occupation policies and relationships. There is a price to be paid whether we stay in Iraq or not, so I think we better be prepared to start paying that price while we still have some leverage and control, instead of waiting to see what the deferred price is when things spiral beyond our control.

Would those who want us to stay in Iraq "for as long as necessary" please do your own duty by a) signing up for military service and b) handing over as much of your own fundsl as possible in order to pay for this?

Remember, Osama's original idea was to do to the US what Afghanistan had ended up doing to the Soviets: bankrupting it by miring it down in a costly war of attrition.

Looks like the Republicans are following Osama's plan very very closely.

"Would those who want us to stay in Iraq "for as long as necessary" please do your own duty by a) signing up for military service and b) handing over as much of your own fundsl as possible in order to pay for this?"

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Damn straight! All the Chickenhawk wusses need to get THEIR asses into a kill zone if they think this war is so important. No sacrifice too great to win, right?

Michael Simpson and thirteen28 make fair observations. I am a liberal Democrat, and I am supporting Obama in this election. But one thing worries me in the upcoming general, whether the nomination winds up going to Hillary or Obama. That is, having invaded Iraq and destabilized it, don't we have a moral obligation to find *some* workable end to the war that will not result in civil war, ethnic cleansing, and possible genocide? And, isn't it possible that any such workable solution will involve a large commitment of troops and resources over a long period of time, i.e., much longer than the current Democratic plans (featuring hard draw-down deadlines) contemplate? It's the Pottery Barn rule - you break it, you own it. It seems politically convenient and intellectually dishonest to me when so many people on the left posit that remaining in Iraq only increases destabilization and suffering, and that any argument that we should retain a significant presence there is a sop to the Halliburton war profiteers. I am already ashamed that we, the United States, began this disastrous war in Iraq. I will be so much more ashamed if we leave Iraq a smoldering ruin, and leave the people of Iraq to a horrible, bloody fate. And, as thireen28 points out, and as Jonathan Rauch wrote recently in the Atlantic, such a withdrawal risks replaying the Vietnam debate that plagued American politics for a generation. McCain's full-throated support of Bush's policies in Iraq never sat well with me. But does a rejection of those policies necessarily mean leaving Iraq in the lurch? Is there a responsible way for us to end this engagement in Iraq? For those readers who want to draw down as quickly as possible, what do you think will happen in Iraq when we leave? I really want to know the answers to these questions, because they are keeping me up at night.

I really want to know the answers to these questions, because they are keeping me up at night.

We Americans need to wrap our minds around a stubborn characteristic of reality, namely, that oftentimes, there are no palatable answers, no solutions, no ways to avoid the Really Bad Thing.

The logic on the Iraq war is maddening. When violence rises, we cannot leave because the country would descend into even more chaos. When violence declines, we cannot leave, because our presence is creating the stability. In short, we can never leave, because the country is torn to shreds, and we're the scotch tape.

The only way out of this is significant progress on the political front. That's what the Democrats need to focus on. Obama predicted in 2002 that getting into this war would mean getting mired in occupation: "I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences."

He was right then, and he's right when he says that, though the "surge" is suppressing certain amounts of violence, it is not solving our basic quandary. Without political progress between Iraq's factions, we are stuck in a trap of our own making. A costly, costly trap.

The fact is, we are no longer at war. All that talk about the need for victory in Iraq is so much smoke and mirrors. We've won the war. What we're failing at is occupation. War and occupation are two very different things. Ask the Israelis if you don't want to take my word for it.

A good Democratic candidate will have no problem making the case to the public that, while we cannot abandon Iraq, we cannot let it trap us forever, either.

"It's the Pottery Barn rule - you break it, you own it."

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George Bush and the neo cons own it. If you always thought the war was a bad idea, you're not responsible for the negative fallout of either the invasion or the withdrawal. It is these "bleeding heart" arguments that are intellectually dishonest. Bush doesn't really care about the Iraqi people, he cares about salvaging his failed legacy by passing the war to the next president. Freeing the Iraqis was never the primary justification for the war, it became the justication after the fact. Whenever the neo cons go on about the poor Iraqis, as if they actually care about the Iraqis at all, they are lying hypocrites.

I think it's a mistake for conservatives to believe that the war in Iraq is a separate issue from foreign debt, budgetary shortfalls and recession that affect the personal priorities of Americans. They are inextricably linked.

I believe Americans will equate the suffering they are now beginning to feel at home with the war in Iraq.

Here in California, as we see budget shortfalls that affect schools and healthcare - people will equate that with spending in Iraq.

And, they will link Republican policies with their suffering for years to come.

I think it's a mistake for conservatives to believe that the war in Iraq is a separate issue from foreign debt, budgetary shortfalls and recession that affect the personal priorities of Americans. They are inextricably linked.

I believe Americans will equate the suffering they are now beginning to feel at home with the war in Iraq.

Here in California, as we see budget shortfalls that affect schools and healthcare - people will equate that with spending in Iraq.

And, they will link Republican policies with their suffering for years to come.

The following from a former strong critic of the Iraq War in a Worldwide Standard piece:

AnthonyCordesman has been to Iraq again, and his findings are worthy of attention:
"No one can spend some 10 days visiting the battlefields in Iraq without seeing major progress in every area. A combination of the surge, improved win and hold tactics, the tribal uprising in Anbar and other provinces, the Sadr ceasefire, and major advances in the use of IS&R have transformed the battle against Al Qaida in Iraq. If the US provides sustained support to the Iraqi government -- in security, governance, and development -- there is now a very real chance that Iraq will emerge as a secure and stable state...
...and it is clear that Iraq can only succeed with years of additional US support in security, governance, and development. The progress in 2008 and 2009 cannot be decisive or irreversible. It will take strong US involvement throughout the life of the next Administration to succeed, and it may well take US aid through 2016."

When we leave Iraq, starting in 2009, only one thing is for certain: the right wing at home will tell the knife-in-the-back tale, a certain number of people will believe it, and they will nurse their rage with it. Let them. Their tale won't resonate with the American public.

The truth is, the American public doesn't give a damn about the Iraqis.

In any case, this won't be SE Asia redux. The damage can be contained to Iraq, and in fact it can be contained to non-Kurd Iraq. After withdrawal from southern and western Iraq, we will still be in a strong position. Unlike Cambodia:

We can hold Kuwait, because the Kuwaitis want us, and the American public will support the small force needed to hold Kuwait, because it has oil.

We can hold Kurdistan, because the Kurds want us, and the American public will support the small force needed to to hold Kurdistan, for the same reason.

We can keep the Iranian military out of Iraq, because we can enforce a no-fly zone and the Iraqis on the ground won't let Iranians rule them.

We even have a pretty fair chance of avoiding long-term chaos in Arab Iraq, because the emerging Sunni leadership has a stake in order and will figure out how to stabilize things, and the Iranians have a stake in order so the Shias will find a way to stabilize things as well.

Unlike SE Asia, there are legitimate and powerful US interests in the region, so there will be popular support for continued US military air dominance over the entire Middle East, and for keeping bases in Kuwait.

Sorry, right wing guys, but the aftermath of our withdrawal from Arab Iraq is not going to be a bloodbath that convinces the American public that you were right. Not if the Democrats act boldly, and with intelligence and resolve.

Now, which Democrat is more likely to do act boldly and with resolve? Right. Obama is not Carter.

Hope you enjoy your 40 years in the desert.

Right, Obama is not Carter. Carter at least had some governing experience. Obama, a former two-term Illinois senator with an unseemly history of abstentions, and a rookie U.S. senator, so far capable of little more than frothy rhetoric, plans to sit down with the likes of Ahmidinejad and Chavez and work out the problems. Peace and prosperity in our time. Sooner or later before November the American people will puncture this hot air balloon.

Neocon liars are reading from the same script. Obama, the only candidate to oppose the Iraq war is slandered as an empty suit.

Newspapers have failed readers by publishing the lies of neocon propagandists. Newspapers are no longer in the business of telling the truth. They exist to steal money from readers to fund the neocon propaganda machine.

Peter Leavitt posts: "The following from a former strong critic of the Iraq War in a Worldwide Standard piece:

Anthony Cordesman has been to Iraq again, and his findings are worthy of attention" blah blah blah.

It is quite simply not true to refer to Cordesman as a "strong critic," former or otherwise, "of the Iraq War." While Cordesman expressed reservation and disapproval of decisions made during the war's early days, he was a supporter of the invasion and has been an advocate for the position that the US must remain in Iraq.

Cordesman's lack of credibility is underscored by his use of the archaic term "battlefields" to describe the places he was led to during his dog and pony show. There are no "battlefields" in the Iraq war, but the word evokes images that swell the erogenous zones of chickenhawks, so Cordesman uses it. He knows his audience and how to make them cluck.

Obama, Clinton and my cat have one advantage over the current occupant of the Oval Office. All three have bigger brains and aren't afraid to use them.

Why doesn't anyone ever talk about cost as a factor with respect to the war? Going into a serious economic slowdown, with all sorts of financial collapses seemingly cropping up every week, who thinks we can realistically afford to keep spending an extra $500 billion a year on an elective war? (Yes, it really is that much -- out of $1.1 trillion in on-budget military expenditures as of 2008, and a few hundred billion a year in off-budget appropriations for the war in specific).

Even if the surge is helping, it also implies a higher level of expense. And this is the worst possible time for burdening the American people with such an expense, as a new, semi-permanent cost.

I'd suggest that therein may lie the reason for lack of broad "appreciation" for the results of the surge. Who the hell gives a damn about whether the surge is working when they're facing foreclosure and their local government is broke?

The Iraq Occupation is

- generating millions of refugees

- making it popular to oppose & kill Americans, from Iraq all across North Africa

- keeping the US tied up and sapping its economic and military strength (just as Osama wanted)

- generating terrible images of women and children maimed and killed by the US

- generating terrible images of the US as a torturer of Moslem men and women

- helping the US to simultaneously lose two occupations at once

Ross, your analysis is superior to Podhoretz's (though he does have some good observations). Taking the war off the table (which is, according to polls, is exactly what is happening), is not good for the GOP. Party ID numbers, the electoral college map, and congressional districting set a bottom to how low they can go, but they can easily get there with just the economy and Bush dragging them down.

My impression is that Obama would be in a better situation on Iraq. He has a clear record of being to the left of the American public on the issue, and so he'd have the creditbility to stay longer or delay the withdrawl somewhat in response to events. Of course if he does withdraw quickly with bad, headline-grabbing results, then it will be bad for the Democrats. It makes one wonder whether any Democrat will want to risk the effects of a pullout (even if they really believe the long term effect will be good), with a big domestic agenda on the table. I don't think so. No Democrat wants to spend four years undoing Iraq as their only achievement.

Notwithstanding the wishful thinking of the peace-at-any-price faction, the American public has not "turned against the Iraq war". They quite long ago turned against LOSING the Iraq war, which until recently looked like what we were doing.

The quality of the opposition in Iraq (relatively small, fragmented, largely leaderless, with little of no infrastructure or popular support, no sanctuaries or Big Power sponsors, and no plan for governance) is not sufficient to beat our allies unless we undermine them. I'm confident that none of the three potential Presidents have the slightest intention of abandoning our interests, our allies, and our honor in Iraq. If it was important to garrison South Korea for over half a century, it's by any reasonable calculation far more important to stand by Iraq. A reasonably stable, reasonably democratic Iraq at peace with its neighbors and pumping oil, compared to having a sworn enemy totalitarianism sitting on the fulcrum of the world economy looks like Victory to me. I think most voters feel the same.

Chris sounds like you are an idiot.
Chris sounds like you got your history from 1980s Hollywood movies like Rambo and M.I.A.
Chris sounds like you should perhaps actually go to those countries that you think you know so much about.

Chris sounds like you have forgotten the lessons of Vietnam.