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Obamaland?

11 Feb 2008 02:06 pm

With friends like Paul Krugman, Hillary Clinton doesn't need enemies:

In 1956 Adlai Stevenson, running against Dwight Eisenhower, tried to make the political style of his opponent’s vice president, a man by the name of Richard Nixon, an issue. The nation, he warned, was in danger of becoming “a land of slander and scare; the land of sly innuendo, the poison pen, the anonymous phone call and hustling, pushing, shoving; the land of smash and grab and anything to win. This is Nixonland.”

The quote comes from “Nixonland,” a soon-to-be-published political history of the years from 1964 to 1972 written by Rick Perlstein, the author of “Before the Storm.” As Mr. Perlstein shows, Stevenson warned in vain: during those years America did indeed become the land of slander and scare, of the politics of hatred.

And it still is. In fact, these days even the Democratic Party seems to be turning into Nixonland.

By coincidence, I'm actually reading the galleys of Nixonland at the moment, and - well, let's just say that the comparison of the current Democratic race to the political landscape depicted in Perlstein's book strikes me as almost entirely laughable. But even more laughable is Krugman's culprit for the Nixonification of Democratic politics - one Barack Obama:

I won’t try for fake evenhandedness here: most of the venom I see is coming from supporters of Mr. Obama, who want their hero or nobody ...

That last clause is an accurate description of one of my fellow bloggers and some of other pro-Obama independents, but almost nobody else on the Democratic side, so far as I can tell. As for Krugman's examples of the Nixonian "venom" supposed spewing forth from the Obamanians, well, he has exactly two:

During the current campaign, Mrs. Clinton’s entirely reasonable remark that it took L.B.J.’s political courage and skills to bring Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to fruition was cast as some kind of outrageous denigration of Dr. King.

And the latest prominent example came when David Shuster of MSNBC, after pointing out that Chelsea Clinton was working for her mother’s campaign — as adult children of presidential aspirants often do — asked, “doesn’t it seem like Chelsea’s sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?” Mr. Shuster has been suspended, but as the Clinton campaign rightly points out, his remark was part of a broader pattern at the network.

So David Shuster is somehow an agent of the Obama campaign? And the MLK vs. LBJ fracas is supposed to be more telling than, say, Bill Clinton's transparent attempt to paint Obama as a Jesse Jackson-style racialist niche candidate? One would think that Krugman, who's given to claiming that the entire conservative ascendancy can be explained by the GOP's exploitation of Southern racism, would aware of the irony of accusing Barack Obama's campaign of employing Nixonesque tactics in this election.

I say this, mind you, as someone who doesn't think that a Nixon-style politics of cynical management is always worse than an Obama-style politics of moral uplift. (More on this topic once I've finished Nixonland ...) But neither does Paul Krugman, so far as I call tell! Indeed, his preference for Hillary seems to reflect, at least in part, his view of politics as brutal trench warfare in which Democrats need to be a brass-knuckled as the GOP if they're going to have a fighting chance. In other words, he likes her precisely because she's Nixonesque. Which only makes his reading of the Democratic primary campaign all the more absurd.

Comments (55)

The other thing about Krugman's anti-Obama campaign is the tactic of saying that his campaign is a cult of personality. As far as I can tell, the message there is "look, you like this guy too much. As Democrats, we're supposed to swallow our distaste and repeat to ourselves our candidate's great biography and policy plans, and most importantly the horror of the Republican. But you're not allowed to be very excited about the candidate directly. Its unseemly."

Oh, and as for Andrew Sullivan, he split his Republican endorsement between Paul and MCain (about 2/3 for Paul, 1/3 for McCain) so I think it would be if not Obama, then McCain's OK.

I'm generally a fan of Krugman's, but he must think he has an in for a really great job in a new Clinton administration. He makes no sense on this campaign at all.

There's a lot of intensity in both the Clinton and Obama camps. To say that the majority of the venom is coming from Obama supporters I think is laughable. Mrs. Clinton's surrogates have certainly not shied away from some rather venomous and even reprehensible conduct. Robert Johnson, Bob Kerrey Billy Shaheen and President Clinton come to mind. On the other side, Mrs. Obama answered poorly last week when asked if she could support Senator Clinton if she won the nomination.

And someone might mention to Mr. Krugman that he could really dispense with the disclaimers as to when he is not being evenhanded.....it's just safe to assume he's not.

"the irony of accusing Barack Obama's campaign of employing Nixonesque tactics "

Uh, yeah, a problem with your argument is that Krugman talks about Obama's "followers," as opposed to the "Obama camp" or "Obama's handlers" or the "Obama campaign" or even, say, Obama.

No, Obama's "supporters," not his "followers." Still, same point.

Really, really weak, Kyle. If that's the best defense of Krugman you can come up with, it's really sad.

The anti-Krugman posts in this thread prove his point, particularly the ad hominem attack by MoeLarryAndJesus. The Democratic party will have to come together to have any chance of beating McCain. Obama understands this, I'm sure, but a lot of his supporters don't.

Krugman can come off as a bit of a dick to those with whom he disagrees. This isn't news--it certainly predates the Bush Administration--and it's why we (Dems) like him. People need to suck it up and just accept stuff like this. You don't get Rodman's defense and rebounds without the occasional camera-man crotch kick.

I knew a Krugman once. He ran one of those companies that enable you to buy used items of lingerie allegedly from Japanese girls. Seems he might have gone up in the world since....

Ross's last point raises the possibility that Krugman is attacking Obama's perceived strength-- the "politics of moral uplift."

Which makes Krugman a Rovian on this issue.

Mind boggling.

Fair point, SomeCallMeTim, but has Krugman ever been a static known quantity? He has always been evolving, most recently away from economics and toward pure political hackery. It's hardly ad hominem (as another commenter said) to note that obvious progression. What's left of real economics in his broadsides against Obama is barely more than a gimmicky attempt to anchor his dislike of Obama in something other than his vendetta against Obama (or whatever - I am no mind-reader but this is my best guess.)

...which opinion Krugman is entitled to, but the pretense of doing it for Democratic unity, civility or progressivism writ large has grown pretty threadbare.

I'm an Obama supporter, but one who has frequently been embarrassed by the high level of venom coming from other supporters of Obama in the blogosphere. The dynamic is clear and obvious to anyone who has spent any time reading the political discussions since Iowa and New Hampshire: Hillary Clinton supporters are very likely to say they will support Obama if their candidate loses, but Obama supporters are much less likely to say they will support Hillary. Many of the most vocal say they will sit out the election, vote Green, or vote for McCain. The dynamic got really intense during the week or so around the South Carolina primaries, where racial and gender topics burned. You can read the posts by Josh Marshall of TPM, for example, to see how he notes that most Democrats nationwide seem to like both candidates BUT NOT ON THE BLOGOSPHERE where acrimony is prominent.

So while neither the Clinton nor Obama camps are pure of venom and flame throwers, sadly Krugman is correct that Obama supporters tend to be more venomous. Doubly so if they're not Democrats, but Hillary hating independents like Andrew Sullivan.

So I think

When Obama's campaign first attacked Krugman, I thought: What Idiots! Who attacks a respected liberal NY Times columist where one is trying to win a Dem Primary?

Now I think: How did they know?

How does Krugman feel about Austan Goolsbee, Obama's chief economics advisor? I smell the hint of an intra-academic rivalry . . .

We here this periodically from liberals like Krugman. They cry that Republicans have exploited racial divisions in the south to push a conservative agenda. Of course the casual racism from northern liberals who distrust african-americans who don't adopt their views and don't owe their success entirely to that same northern liberal power structure is just as unsavory. I guess because it's more subtle it's okay. It's the same king of attitude that calls people like Colin Powell an Uncle Tom. On principle I won't read Krugman.

You can read the posts by Josh Marshall of TPM, for example, to see how he notes that most Democrats nationwide seem to like both candidates BUT NOT ON THE BLOGOSPHERE where acrimony is prominent.

Gee, I wonder if that's because HRC was on the wrong side of the issue that gave birth to and sustained the blogosphere? (I wouldn't mind seeing Krugman address that, and the idea of "past sins" more generally. He was, after all, a relatively lonely voice for a while, and he doesn't seem to be the most forgiving of people (again, why we love him).) Would anybody be that surprised to find out that Cato doesn't love Huckabee? (I have no idea what Cato folk have actually written about the Huckster, so insert a different pair as needed.)

Stan hyperventilates: "The anti-Krugman posts in this thread prove his point, particularly the ad hominem attack by MoeLarryAndJesus. The Democratic party will have to come together to have any chance of beating McCain. Obama understands this, I'm sure, but a lot of his supporters don't."

This is purely stupid. This campaign hasn't been particularly vicious, and my "ad hominem attack" was exceedingly mild. McCain won't be a formidable opponent and the Democrats will be fine with either candidate as the nominee. I prefer Obama and Krugman apparently does not, but it's not a big crisis.

Paul Krugman has become unhinged.

Sometimes it takes an outsider to the party to point out the obvious (thanks, Ross!). The guy is going nuts, and it's really unseemly.

The entire Democratic party needs to get it together, figure out a way to solve Michigan and Florida, and remind everyone who we're really fighting against: the Republican nominee. All of this intra-party fighting is getting nasty, and it's only going to hurt the Dems in the long run.

From a conservative perspective the fall of the House of Clinton [Bill Kristol] along with Krugman as a prospective high-level government official in the political wilderness would be salutary.

As to Obama, McCain will make mincemeat of him on the issue of a precipitous withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Most Americans would prefer victory in Iraq to the sort of ignominious withdrawal that both Clinton and Obama are advocating.

I disagree, Peter Leavitt.

"A solid majority of independents (61%) say the war was wrong compared with just a third (33%) who say it was right." "54% favor bringing U.S. troops home from Iraq as soon as possible".

In addition, you, like McCain, don't explain what success would look like, don't engage in analysis to determine how likely it is, and don't talk about the likely costs. In lieu of an argument, you deploy emotional adjectives ("ignominious," "precipitous"). I don't think that's going to cut it in the general, given where the electorate is and what the facts are.

Obama is beating McCain in general election polls now, for whatever that's worth.

Echoing MoeLarryAndJesus, as an Obama supporter I'm planning to supporter the Democratic nominee, whether its Sen. Obama or Sen. Clinton.

Stan, I also fail to see how attacking one the two Democratic presidential candidates as being the head of a personality cult helps unify the Democratic party. Could you help me out on that one?

Krugman didn't attack Obama, he attacked a subset of Obama's supporters. I like Obama and I'll happily support him if he gets the nomination. Is MoeLarryAndJesus willing to support Clinton? If not, he's proving Krugman's point.

Krugman writes: "...most of the venom I see is coming from supporters of Mr. Obama..."
What planet is he from? The virulent anti-Obama postings are everywhere. (Paul, minor point - you don't "see" venom.)
I've come to the conclusion that anyone born in the 1940's (e.g., both Clintons, Shalala, Wolfson...okay, 100% of the Clinton inner circle)should not be allowed to vote, run for office, or, look, can't they all just go away? And take Diane Keaton and Streisand with you.
If you were born in the '20s or '30s, no problem, the '50s, '60s, etc., you're fine. But something was in the breast milk in the '40s. They think they own it all, are entitled to it all, and we've had enough of James Taylor!!
Mr. Krugman, please, you had your shot. Enough already.

Krugman has really lost it. I think he's been reading too many blog comments and not looking at what's going on in the real world. Democrats are happy with both Obama and Clinton; some just prefer Obama and some would rather Obama get a few more years experience.

This is nothing compared to the angst on the GOP side where there are many real world people who have shown that they don't approve of John McCain as our nominee.

Stan again: "I like Obama and I'll happily support him if he gets the nomination. Is MoeLarryAndJesus willing to support Clinton? If not, he's proving Krugman's point."

My post at 4:36 made my answer quite clear. Of course I'd vote for her over any Repiglican. I think there are very, very few Obama supporters who wouldn't.

Peter Leavitt stupidly lies: "As to Obama, McCain will make mincemeat of him on the issue of a precipitous withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Most Americans would prefer victory in Iraq to the sort of ignominious withdrawal that both Clinton and Obama are advocating."

Of course neither Clinton or Obama is advocating a "precipitous withdrawal." I wish they would.

I guess Repiglicans think they can lie their way to another presidential win. A candidate like McCain talking about staying in Iraq for 100 years is going to get his lunatic ass kicked, and kicked soundly.

Of course Petey wants us to nuke Iran tomorrow, so he has very different ideas about what the American people want than the American people do.

The link is what Krugman has to say in his blog. In case you can't be bothered to read the whole thing, he actually uses Clive Crook's words to defend his point. The ironic thing is, according to Krugman "supporters of Mr. Obama....... want their hero or nobody." Yet in the quoted passage from Clive Crook, an Obama supporter, says "if elected, (Clinton) would hit the ground running."

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/on-race-cards-and-all-that/

Just sit back and admire the total implosion of his logic.

Perhaps we can now introduce a new measure for questionable political argument. I propose that we formally inaugurate the "Krugman" (KR for short). One Krugman can be considered the amount of energy needed to spend approximately 1000 words denouncing someone else in unfair or irrelevant terms. There is a related unit, namely the "Penn" (PN for short) which is used to measure press releases arguing that crushing defeats are really part of the master plan. The Penn replaces the Giuliani (GL), which was a short-lived measure and became obsolete in early 2008.

Ross, you need to start reading Yglesias' comments section, for just one example among many. Any Hillary supporter fears to tread there -- it's non-stop vitriol from the Obamans, with a lot of name-calling and general excessive viciousness. Last week, Ezra Klein criticized Obama for being untruthful in an analogy about health insurance mandates, and his comments section turned into a very nasty example of blogofascism, with incitements to subject him to the relentless treatment given to Joe Klein for, in one commenter's words, "crossing the line." What the hell is wrong with people???

I don't hear much from the Hillaryites these days on blogs -- they've been driven out in large part by the swarm. I know I have. And if I have to read one more comment threatening, "I won't EVER vote for Hillary because of (fill in your pet outrage)," I'm going to throw up. They're both great candidates. I'll happily vote for either. But if you think people aren't making it hard for me to keep saying that, you are not reading enough of what's going on in the blogosphere these days.

Grouchy, you are not stating accurately how people felt about Ezra Klein's posting. Ezra made a fairly blatant attempt to make a cherry-picked quote into evidence of falsehood, on a topic where there remains substantial disagreement. This was, and remains, an extremely dishonest way to report an issue, and was very badly received, for perfectly understandable reasons.

Grouchy, surely you can find refuge with Taylor Marsh or Big Tent Democrat? They are as rabidly pro-HRC as your heart could desire.

It's not fair to call everyone against Clinton, an "Obaman", Grouchy. A lot of us had made up our minds we wouldn't support HRC long before Obama came along. If you are a liberal democrat HRC is just a bad candidate, plain and simple. She's an agressive hawk when even Republicans are getting heat on Iraq. Of all years to support a candidate whose foreign policy advisors are closely tied to the neocons, you pick 2008? I have no idea why Krugman would support the Clintons this time around, he must be angling for a job. I'm sick of hearing Obama supporters claim that "well, Hilary is good too." No. She's not. Edwards is good too. Bill Richardson would have been good. I really don't see much of substance to choose between the DNC pseudo-dems and McCain - except that McCain at least stands for something. If the Right hates Hilary, it's because they suspect that she, like Bill, will govern from the center right and steal their thunder.

this is a very good post.

Right. Well, if you really think that Hillary's that bad, I suppose you might have to live through a McCain presidency to find out that there are levels of badness. I thought the Bush administration had taught us all that, but apparently ideological purity is the most important consideration. My point was actually the opposite of wanting "rabidly pro-Hillary." I don't want rabidly pro-anyone. It doesn't further the discussion -- it's just a lot of shouting about the evils of the other candidate, and a lot of threatening not to vote, etc. Notice how little there is that's productive about that. Does this kind of nastiness convince anyone of a new point of view, or just drive them to silence? As to the Ezra Klein business, I don't want to refight it on the merits -- and you'll notice I didn't try to. My comment was not about who was right in that discussion, but that threatening to shut down people who are on your side on the vast majority of issues -- rather than engage in debate -- is not helpful to the larger cause of progressivism, or even of humanity at large. It does seem to me indisputable that the comments sections of blogs were much more civil and able to work through disagreements in a useful way before the campaign. And don't take my word for it -- Digby, Carpetbagger Report, Atrios, have all had to address the changing tone.

Grouchy, I have tried in the past to introduce a diary entry at Kos suggesting that fighting like this does not help Democrats. It immediately turned into a fight between pro and anti HRC/Obama factions. I can't say one side was worse than the other, but it was depressing. Funnily enough, a call to unity and general good will somehow was interpreted by some there as being a sign of trollishness.

Grouchy, I would point out that you seemed to be implying that Obama supporters were to blame. In that context, perhaps you might want to rephrase your post a little? I've heard plenty of rants from Hillary supporters, usually claiming that Obamans are sexist/cultist/children/elitist.. you name it.

Ross,

Look at how the Obama fans in your comments are reacting to Krugman at what essentially is your rallying cry in this entry- they are exactly justifying Krugman's point. Be honest with yourself Ross. Look at the vitriol and personal attacks on Krugman here, all entirely for the sake of Obama. If this isn't the Nixonesque manifesting of hatred for the external other, what it is?

Even more interesting is how they react to commenter grouchy. Go to any blogsphere or social network site and just take note of the tone of Obama supporters. And if you have any doubt visit a polling station in an actual election, rather than a caucus, where the totals are in doubt. The Obama voters are often keyed up by the organizing machine to be just as hostile as 2006 republican voters.

What you fail to see is the psychological messaging on the Obama side that is entirely Nixonian, and manifests day after day after day all across the web. It's seriously unhealthy.

And as for the Jesse Jackson comment. If you look at the actual interview you will see that Clinton is in the middle of a string of hostile questions, repeatedly saying, "That's bait. I won't take the bait today." The specific one that yielded the JJ response was, "Why does it take two of you to beat him?". The answer was it doesn't. Obama wins elections only where his demographic core outnumbers her demographic core.

What's interesting about the latest sweep is that we have no demographic data from exit polling, but what we saw on Feb 5, was exactly the same story being told over and over again.

Who knows maybe all the positive spin will actually give Obama an unprecedented demographic break out in elections tomorrow, but we certainly haven't seen one yet.

Patience, I think you are seeking to create a fight that largely does not exist on this blog. People disagree on Krugman, which, given the aggressive tone of his latest column, is hardly surprising. Some Obama fans are too punchy, but there are also some very aggressive Clinton fans. It is counterproductive to blame one side rather than the other. I can't see any response to Grouchy here which is personally hostile, or attacks him. Does Grouchy feel that the responses are unfair? If so, let him/her tell us.

I’d like to see more moments like that, perhaps starting with strong assurances from both Democratic candidates that they respect their opponents and would support them in the general election.

What is he talking about? Obama has said words to this effect in every speech for the last two weeks. I haven't paid close attention to Clinton, but I bet she's said stuff like this too. The "venomous" campaign exists entirely in comment sections in blogs and in Mr. Krugman's column.

Grouchy, that may be true on some blogs, but not on others. Go to MYDD, the commenters there are rabidly anti-Obama. Pretty much every thread turns into a chorus of Clinton supporters shouting "rezko" at every chance and calling Obama everything from a crook, a liar, scum, conservative, socialist, divisive, vain, arrogant, empty suit, naderite, liebercrat, cult leader, etc.

Patience,

Interesting, I see the opposite of what you see. What's really happening on the Democrat side is that a lot of people with doubts about Obama are being driven to him because we are so disgusted with Clinton supporters and their outrage that anyone dare touch their sainted candidate. Any criticism of HRC, or mention of the fact that she actually supported the war and spent years justifying that policy, is met with accusations that you're a Naderite or want "ideological purity." I just want Clinton supporters to be honest - if you support the war in Iraq then say so and make a real case for staying involved, don't try to sell us HRC as an "anti-war" candidate, it's ridiculous. At least Republican war supporters are up front with their position, Democrat hawks are trying to play a double game of being publicly "anti-Bush" but will be quite happy to continue his policies as soon as they get in office.

I agree with David M. This is a very good post.

Krugman didn't attack Obama, he attacked a subset of Obama's supporters.

What a dupe. Of COURSE he is attacking Obama - as he has done over, and over, and over again in his columns. Krugman has long seen power, access (which IS power) and prestige ahead for himself under a new Clinton White House. Then Obama came out of nowhere and got in the way, ruining his idyllic, imaginary future.

Krugman is hell-bent on preventing Obama's derailment of his self-involved plans, and he's desperately counting on dupes like you to swallow his garbage without question. This post, refreshingly, demonstrates that many people, at least, see right through him.

Even though I consider myself extremely liberal, when I watched the McCain parody version of the "Yes We Can" video, I was struck by how smug it was. Seig Heil to the war hero? The one whose injuries make it impossible for him to raise his arms? Is that really an attitude that will appeal to independents? Or an appropriate appeal from a "movement" that claims it is seeking "unity?"

The fact is, the Obama campaign, despite its intention to be otherwise, is, at its heart, divisive.

Every campaign is based in a great American myth. The great liberal myth, which Obama personifies better than anyone who has run for the Presidency since (Irish Catholic, generational change candidate) Kennedy, is that of the Outsider who finds his way in -- the talented man who triumphs over small minds, naysayers and the status quo.

This is a storyline with inspirational appeal to meritocratic elites, racial and religious minorities, artists, and the young who feel oppressed and thwarted by their more powerful elders.

But, the problem with this, as a campaign appeal, is that it inspires some by denigrating others. You are either with the enlightened forces of good on the bandwagon, or with all the "small minded" others. Despite appeals to unity, such a campaign is essentially divisive. Most often much more divisive, and smug, than its adherents realize.

Another great American campaign story, one that is more likely to be embraced by the working and middle class across the political spectrum, and one that conservatives have consistently made better use of than liberals, is that of the principled man who endures. The man (or woman) who works hard, conquers obstacles to concrete achievement, stands up to the harshest attacks, and still emerges with both principles and dignity intact. This is not a divisive storyline, but, it is one that demands a lot from a candidate; people have to believe that the candidate does have consistent principles.

In a Democratic primary, the first myth, especially when so perfectly embodied by a candidate, is most likely to trump the second -- especially when many doubt the principled consistency of his opponent. But, it is also likely to leave a divisive legacy.

Well said, Ross.

I usually enjoy Krugman's column, but it's absurd to criticize Obama for being Nixonian, which is one thing he most certainly is not.

One certain thing about Hillary is that no one will ever attack her campaign for being a "cult of personality."

So she's got that going for her, I guess.

Mary, all primary campaigns are divisive to some extent - that's just the nature of two or more people competing for one place. You can't run on the theory that we are all the same and all candidates should be the same. Of course there are differences, and that's how it should be. I don't see the Obama campaign rejecting anyone, nor do I see Clinton doing to so. If you look at how Obama handles seniors, for example, you will find that he favors lightening their financial burdens, and enabling people to retire with dignity. That's hardly divisive, surely?

As for smugness, I think this may be more a reflection of the bitterness that the Clinton campaign and its supporters feel after some fairly heavy defeats. Obama certainly does not communicate smugness - in fact, he emphasizes how far there is to go.

If any campaign has been divisive, I'd suggest that it would the campaign that tried some race-baiting, has tried to cheat on the Michigan and Florida primaries, and which simply writes off large parts of the USA as irrelevant to the general election, simply because the voters rejected it.

Mary describes one of the great American campaign stories:

"The man (or woman) who works hard, conquers obstacles to concrete achievement, stands up to the harshest attacks, and still emerges with both principles and dignity intact."

That is an excellent description of Richard Nixon's appeal to middle class America. And, like Nixon himself, it can be an extremely divisive myth. For many, many people, the real emotional power of the Nixon political myth comes not from pure admiration of the principled man of resolve, but from resentment of snooty elites and spoiled kids and, yes, uppity minorities. (I think that's the real source of the rage which Limbaugh, et.al., feel toward McCain -- he doesn't resent with sincerity.)

Politics is inherently divisive. The question is, who appeals to the better angels of his supporters' natures, and who appeals to their baser instincts? I see no evidence that Obama practices the latter style of politics, which is what Krugman accuses him of doing.

Krugman is most un-hinged when he makes a full departure from his identity as an economist, and tumbles down into the black hole of "columnist." That's not a good place for him to be. His only edge is that of an economist, penning a column. And, of course, we see that here.

What happened to Paul is that he capitulated to being a partisan, once he made his choice and laid his bet down for Hillary some time ago. Since then, he has kept doubling down, as her campaign, and her message blur and fade.

There's a reason why economists are rarely ever good at betting, financial-market trading, and predicting.

Finally, in this column Krugman succumbs to the lamest of all forms of analysis, as he experiences Subject-Object confusion in the way he tries to skewer Obama for the percieved faults of his many supporters--people who are voting for him, I gather.

What a complete mess Krugman has become. Is he pacing the floor of his kitchen late at night? Carl Jung taught us alot about the tragi-comedy that unfolds when over-intellectualized academics succumb to their emotions.

Tom --

Change is always a divisive message. It inspires fear as well as hope.

That's why opponents always attack the trustworthiness and sincerity of those seeking change, and work to define them as people with alien values. Without some dramatic economic or demographic shift that significantly broadens the demand for change, that kind of attack is very effective.

The change message worked for Kennedy, despite his wealth, because as the grandson of Irish immigrants he personified the rise from outsider to insider status of a meritocratic new generation; the sons and grandsons of the huge wave of immigrants who arrived in America earlier in the century. Kennedy didn't inspire change, he embodied it.

Boomers hate to feel left out. The Clintonites know this Obama thing is real, not something cooked up by message-makers and pollsters, and I really don't think they hate Obama: They hate being not part of something this exciting. Can't blame them. I went to the caucus in Minneapolis. A sea of white faces in my precinct. The Obama followers were all smiles and enthusiastic. The Clinton camp was passionate as well, but it wasn't the same thing.

Mary,

Yes, change is always divisive. So is reaction. The divisiveness favors the Right when the forces of reaction outnumber (and outvote) the forces receptive to change. Granted, that's been the case in most elections for the past half-century...but not in 2008. We are in the middle of dramatic shifts both economic and demographic. Obama is the only candidate who has fully grasped this.

(And, BTW, my understanding of Kennedy's "change" message in 1960 is that it was less a call for progressive policies from an outsider -- his dad had been ambassador to the UK, after all -- and more of a macho appeal to youth and virility -- missile gaps, and all that.)

Krugman, someone normally respected in Democratic circles, is really losing it here and stands to lose quite a bit of respect, at least from me.

I can think of no good reason to put Hillary Clinton in the White House, other than simply electing a woman for the sake of electing a woman, and lots of reasons not to put her there. Perhaps Krugman is afraid that he won't get a job in the Obama White House and was looking to get back into the mix.

As I tell others. Politics is about two things. #1 Having good policies and plans. #2 Getting people to support those policies and plans.

You can't achieve #1 without first achieving #2, and Hillary is and has always been horrible at #2. Without #1 #2 is a mute point. Obama clearly has #2 in the bag. The question is whether he also has #1, and to be honest, I think that many people, including myself, don't really care. He has #2, and once in the White House, he can amass a team and get the specialists needed to put together #1. Being president is about #2, it is not about #1. #1 is achieved by having the right team. Obama need not be a proverbial King Solomon, nor a Stalin (which is how I imagine Hillary). He isn't a one man think tank and no president needs to be. He just need to be the inspiration to make things happen, and I believe that he is more than capable of doing that.

Drum's Law (named for Kevin Drum) or whatever it is called now easily applies here. There are not enough comments in this thread - on a blog of a major American political publication with a long institutional history (I've read of slaves stealing it from their masters homes to learn how to read, to give some idea of its long history) - to fill a single caucus district. A thread at Drum's place is lucky to get 200 comments. Extrapolating anything from such a small number of data points is simply lazy and may point to comment threads becoming another type of in-village circle jerk with little consequence to those not involved.

Also, the major portion of Obama supporters that would be most likely to abandon Clinton if she's the nominee wouldn't be the predominantly white (upper) middle class of thread commenters, but African-Americans, once one of her key demographics. When you race-bait, you don't get to just assume that the race of people you piss on will just forget about it and show that you can abuse them just because they don't have anywhere else to go.

I knew a Krugman once. He ran one of those companies that enable you to buy used items of lingerie allegedly from Japanese girls.

I go back and forth between this and the Ron Paul thread, and I don't know which is the worse example of fanaticism. If you think that a newspaper colunist politely suggesting that certain Obama supporters are a *tad* over the top in their adulation constitutes an unconscionable volley of hatred and deserves ham-handed accusations of pedophilia in retaliation, then how are you going to react if Obama's nominated and has to take on the GOP machine? Do you think it's going to treat your hero with kid gloves?

I was hoping we'd be able to move president-as-unquestionable-Messiah idea once Bush was out of office. Apparently not, unfortunately.


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