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Obama's Democrat Problem

29 Feb 2008 08:37 am

Larison finds some very interesting numbers in the latest Pew survey on '08:

Not only do Democratic defections nearly double in a McCain v. Obama race, but Obama loses a fifth of white Democrats to McCain, and he runs seventeen points behind Clinton among <$30K earners, reflecting continuing weakness with downscale voters. He loses 17 points among the quarter of Democrats who want to stay in Iraq, despite the fact that his and Clinton's positions on Iraq policy right now are virtually indistinguishable (apparently these people believe in Hillary's insincerity enough to know that she won't actually end the war), but he also loses five points compared to Clinton among those who want to bring our forces out of Iraq. He draws slightly less support from liberals and slightly more from conservatives than Clinton, which is rather baffling. Compared to Clinton, he also loses 14 points among Democratic women, which is a much larger figure of disgruntled women voters turning away from the Democrat and backing McCain than the three-point difference between Clinton and Obama among black Democratic voters. The story of the Clintons' permanently alienating black voters sounds good, but on the whole it doesn't seem to be true. Meanwhile, Obama's nomination definitely appears to alienate a lot of Democratic women, who perhaps resent the "upstart" (as he called himself the other day) taking Hillary's crown away from her.

Most remarkable of all is that Obama is weaker among Democrats in all age groups than Clinton. He is four points weaker, and McCain five points stronger, among Democratic voters aged 18-49 than in a Clinton v. McCain race. The losses are even greater among Democratic voters 50-64 and 65+. Democratic defections increase across income groups as well ... And those “Obamacans” we keep hearing about? They do exist, making up 8% of Republicans (three points higher than Clinton), but they are hardly the stuff of historic realignment and they are outnumbered almost two-to-one by “McCainocrats.”

Despite all this, Obama still enjoys a seven point lead over McCain, 50-43 percent, which as Daniel notes is almost entirely due to his support among independents and young voters. (Though to be fair, one reason there may be fewer "Obamacans" than you'd expect is the recent and sudden collapse of the GOP brand; a lot of people who might have called themselves "Republicans for Obama" now presumably call themselves independents.)

This landscape, if I may return to one of my hobby-horses, is exactly why Obama is such a high-risk, high-reward candidate for the Dems. He has the potential to do for the Democratic Party what Reagan did for the GOP in '80 - to win a lopsided victory in which a slew of previously-wavering independents and politically-unformed twentysomethings end up branding themselves as Democrats for a generation. That's the good news; the bad news is that if he doesn't win a lopsided victory among independents and young voters - if the bloom comes off the rose or the glass jaw starts to crack - he has the potential to hemorrhage votes in key constituencies: among downscale voters; among seniors (where I suspect the "wouldn't vote for an African-American" constituency is concentrated); among hawkish and extremely pro-Israel Dems; and even among white women. Which is to say, he could win in a walk, or lose thanks to heavy defections from groups that would have trended Democratic had Hillary been the nominee.

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Comments (68)

I'd bet most of that is just sour grapes on the part of Clinton supporters who in the end will come around and vote for Obama.

I think that this is just early polling, of the sort that had a Giuliani-Clinton matchup a virtual certainty.

Also, your implication in your "glass jaw" post that Obama lacked substance is not true; and even if it were, it's not necessarily something that McCain would be able to take advantage of.

Now back out the South and see what the numbers look like. Nobody expects Grandpa or Grandma Clampett to be OK with an African-American President; they're still getting used to African-American citizens, and, hey, good for them. That we lose the 10% of whites that vote for Dems in the Deep South bothers me not at all.

I really would love it if polls and people citing them did, where possible, some regional analysis. The notion that every region of the country is the same as every other region is insane.

Cult leader Obama is a radical left wing liberal. After he is trashed by the Republican attack machine and swiftboated over his Chicago ties, he will be standing up to McCain on crutches. Being a snake-oil salesman won't help him; McCain will clean his clock in November if cult leader Obamana swipes the nomination with his cult money machine and the pro-Obama biased media.

I really would love it if polls and people citing them did, where possible, some regional analysis. The notion that every region of the country is the same as every other region is insane.

Especially in the electoral college system, state-by-state and regional analysis is essential.

I hope at least some women will stop supporting McCain once his abysmal record on women's rights becomes clear.

I'd bet most of that is just sour grapes on the part of Clinton supporters who in the end will come around and vote for Obama.

This is very true. Resentment of Obama currently runs very high amongst people who will definitely be voting for the Democrat come November. The bigger concern is can Obama maintain his hold on independents throughout a general election campaign where Republicans will no doubt try to paint him as an out of the mainstream liberal.

WillieStyle, that might be the one good thing about a Nader candidacy-- Obama picks up the opportunity to act as a 'centrist' uniter.

As McCain sprints to the right, he loses Independents. Period.

And there's no telling what the evangelical turnout will be for McCain in November. Rove rallied every evangelical in the nation in 2004, and swiftboated Kerry, and it was still a very close election. no chance McCain can get that kind of evangelical turnout.

Finally someone take a look past the hype! Obama IS the weaker candidate and folks will defect to McCain. I'm a moderate democrat and I sure won't be voting for the most liberal member of the Senate!

Right on! Obama's lead has been due in large part to the pass he has gotten in the media. I don't think he can withstand a republican attack. I'm a moderate democrat and Obama certainly won't be getting my vote if he is the nominee. I'd rather have a moderate republican than an extremely liberal democrat!

crat3,
You need to go back to the woods where you belong. Make sure to take out the beer bottles, get off the couch, and get a job.
Say hello to your KKK buddies for me.

Barack Obama for President of the UNITED States of America.

I am not impressed with many things about Barack Obama. What I am impressed with most is the fact that he listens. He LISTENS to Americans. He will continue to do so. People follow him. We need some real leadership.
No matter of experience can prepare you for the white house, unless you are already there. What is most important is listening and leadership.
That is why Barack Obama has shown WISDOM and clarity in his judegments.

I agree with your overall analysis, but I also agree with your first three critics that this polling doesn't mean that much.

Take a look at some of the state-by-state polling. Obama beats McCain in Wisconsin and Iowa; McCain beats Clinton. By contrast, Clinton beats McCain in Ohio, but McCain beats Obama.

What does that mean? One thing it means is that people being polled about the general election are still thinking about the primary. Once the primary is truly over, they will no longer be thinking "I really want Hillary, badly enough that if Obama wins, I'll vote McCain!" or "I really want Barack, badly enough that if Clinton wins, I'll vote McCain!" - they'll be thinking about the two candidates actually running.

I do think Obama and Clinton would have different geographic strengths that stem from their demographic strengths. The black vote is not going to go for McCain under any circumstances - but it will be more mobilized for Obama than for Clinton, and that could make a difference at the margins in certain states. Obama is going to do better with a certain kind of independent ("upbeats" in Pew terms) than Clinton would; that could help him in the general election in some of the same purple states (Wisconsin, Colorado, Virginia) that he did well in during the primaries. But he's going to do worse among older voters - and not just white Southerners in states that are going to go Republican anyway. He will get creamed among Florida Jews, for example; I know plenty of Obama fans among Jews my age (late 30s), but none among Jews my mother's age or older (mid 60s).

The general election is going to be very interesting. Both candidates have substantial crossover appeal, for very different reasons. Both candidates will have an incentive to run genuinely national campaigns. Assuming they have enough money to do so (and Obama at least should), you will see Obama campaigning across the South (not because he has a chance to win Georgia, though he may have a shot at Virginia, but because high black turnout could affect down-ticket races), and you will see McCain campaigning in California and New York (for the same reason, and because he may genuinely believe he could win California or New Jersey).

The funny thing about your analysis of Obama is that the same could be said of McCain: he's relatively high-risk, high-reward for the GOP. High risk because of his age, his somewhat erratic behavior, his overwhelming identification with the Iraq war, and the possibility that chunks of the GOP base will sit on their hands over his immigration stand and other apostasies (thus potentially handing states like Colorado to the Democrats). High reward for better-known reasons: his appeal to independents, his appeal to the media, his heroic personal story, ability to embody both change (because he's a "maverick" and a "reformer" and not really identified with the Bush/Delay GOP apart from Iraq) and experience (because of his "half-century of service" and his long foreign policy experience in particular).

What happens if neither of them melt down, neither of them have a glass jaw?

I was appalled to find out that the claim that Obama is the most liberal senator makes no sense at all! As a moderate Republican, I certainly won't be voting for McCain. He is too interested in occupying and attacking other countries, and too uninterested in balancing the budget or learning about the economy or immigration here at home! The free pass he's getting from the media won't continue.

I teach Market Research at the university level and do a lot of surveys. People change their views on a daily basis. Keep that in mind that just about a month ago Clinton had a 50 to 30 percent lead across the country, she said the race would be over by Super Tuesday; off course we now know the history in making. If Obama gets the Dems' nomination, most experts (real experts, as Political Scientists) expect Obama to win the general election against McCain. It is unfortunate that Clintons and their supporters have been playing Rovian games against their own party. A Republican political scientist friend of mine provided an excellent perspective on this issue.

I will never vote for Obama. He is a scam.

Its so dang funny, all these republicans for Obama, they will vote for McCain. Obama cannot get all of Hillary's supporters. The Dems will loose with Obama.

Its so dang funny, all these republicans for Obama, they will vote for McCain. Obama cannot get all of Hillary's supporters. The Dems will loose with Obama.

Its so dang funny, all these republicans for Obama, they will vote for McCain. Obama cannot get all of Hillary's supporters. The Dems will loose with Obama.

This Pew Study is true but meaningless in that yes, people who self-identify as Democrats responded this way, but increasingly more and more progressives and moderates who almost always vote Democratic self-identify as independents.
So this whole analysis is weak tea.
Probably the looser the ties to the party, the better for Obama, the tighter McCain's ties to the GOP, the better for Obama.
McCain's aura of being a maverick, his own man, served him well in the past. As the weeks pass and the Bush machine takes hold, McCain will morph into Dole, less the independent-minded, liberal Republican that moderates and independents were drawn to.

The thing that seems to be left out here is that, so far, the more Obama campaigns and the more people get to know him, the better he does. The more he campaigns, the more he makes inroads among women, core Democrats, and low-income earners, if poll results are to believed.

That's not to say he'll win. But, given the strength of his campaign and his ability, given time, to shift poll numbers (by ten points in Ohio and Texas over the last week or so alone) he looks much less high risk now than he did, say, three months ago.

"Its so dang funny, all these republicans for Obama, they will vote for McCain. Obama cannot get all of Hillary's supporters. The Dems will loose with Obama."

Then I guess they will 'lose'.

As Fougasseu aptly points out any poll that doesn't bouy Obama up is meaningless and just weak tea. Polls that don't push Obama are invalid and wrong. They just don't see the impotance of what's happening, how important it is to obama supporters.

As Fougasseu aptly points out any poll that doesn't bouy Obama up is meaningless and just weak tea. Polls that don't push Obama are invalid and wrong. They just don't see the importance of what's happening, how important it is to obama supporters.

What NoahB said. Obama and Hillary are close enough on policy, and both well-liked enough across the party, that Dems are going to rally around whoever wins the nom. And Obama's demonstrated an ability to move poll numbers which augers well for him, while McCain's been squeaking by with pluralities in most GOP contests and still hasn't squashed Huck.

Anything can happen, and the general election might play out completely differently than the primary, but whatever base problems Obama has are peanuts compared to what McCain's facing. He's currently cozying up to Apocalypse cheerleaders like John Hagee (a man too biogted for even Bill Donahue) and that's going to cost him the independents he needs to win.

The more people learn about Obama, the more the they like him. The more people learn about the real right-wing McCain, not the media-created "Maverick"-they less they like him.

I think there is little doubt that a large section of the moderate voting block will swing from an Obama candidacy. McCain is courting the extreme right wing NOW but I think it is clearly understood by moderates who he actually is. They will vote for him ... I know, I am one of them. Clinton ... right wingers sit on their hands out of disgust - they see very little difference between McCain and Clinton (except their stand on the war) Obama?? They vote McCain in droves. Obama he is seen as inexperienced and far to liberal ... he scares them. All in all moderate republicans return to there candidate - McCain.
Dems win with a Clinton / Obama ticket. Obama/??(whoever)can't win ... just think it thru.

Hey Bill-that crat3 handle sure is good! kinda sounds like that handle you used on the C.B back in Arkansas when you were out trolling for Lot Lizards. Man you was sure lucky that Hillary didn't mind you running out at night!
Man after that whole Flowers blow up I thought you quit using those nicknames! Oh well I guess old Hil makes you use a handle after you screwed up in South Carolina with those comments. Hell man you know you just got to bew more careful when they can see you!

Carol, if you think McCain is a moderate Republican, you're badly mistaken. Thanks to HIS pass from the media, lots of people think he's moderate, especially because the right wing hates him. But look at the issues: on taxes, war, abortion, gay marriage, judges,etc etc etc. The idea of McCain the moderate is a figment. Any moderate Dem who votes for him shouldn't complain when he proves to be Right Wing on Day One.

Comments I read from Dems explaining why they don't like Obama go like this: "He's totally inexperienced and it would be just like voting for Bush." That's Hillary's line. Obama has a Democrat Problem because Clinton has been trying to give him one.

Why would she? Because, since super Tuesday, the best logical argument for Obama has been he's stronger against McCain. She's trying to weaken him against McCain, to take that away. Clinton is out for herself.

These trends won't hold. Women Democrats will answer this way now because they're bitter about Hillary losing, but they'll come around by November. For the record, I would say the same about black voters backing Clinton in the end. However, the difference is that black voter turnout would be higher than historical levels with an Obama candidacy; not so for Clinton. Older women voters (the Clinton base) turn out come election time already.

What planet is this writer from.With mrs.bj's out of the way Democrats can focus on the fact we don't need a stubborn old man to continue 4 more years of Bush.I've have read McCain's book and admire him but by the same token you could torture him and still not change his mind.

The Hillary supporters you refer to, like me, will definitely, no room for doubt, room republican for the first times in our lives boys. It's not just sour grapes. You Obama men are picking the weaker candidate based on gender and he is going to lose if he's the nominee and divide the democratic party in the meantime. I can't stand the guy and I never feel that way about a democrat. Wasn't a huge Kerry fan, but I voted and donated and wanted the guy to win big time. Not with Obama. I want to be able to say "We told you so" come November.

Can I just say the "women will come around" meme is really, really annoying? It sounds like you're patting people on the head. I don't think Obama will have much trouble peeling a lot of female voters off McCain once his track record on abortion, social issues, etc. become more well-known, but can we not be so fucking condescending?

I want to be able to say "We told you so" come November.

I hope that feels good when Roe v. Wade gets overturned in March 2010.

Rachel, the only reason you have for voting Republican if Obama wins the race is "because you can't stand the guy?" Because you think it's just men voting for him "based on gender"? So, basically, you can't stand him because he dares to run against our first viable woman candidate? You want to vote for McCain, a man who accepts the mantle of the Bush presidency and an indefinite stay in Iraq, so that "you can say, I told you so, in November?" What a cynical, bitter, destructive, and ultimately stereotypical position. Please. Get real.

I consider myself a feminist, but I don't think voting for someone just because she happens to be a woman a very feminist position. I am a feminist who is grateful for the ability to exercise my own mind and own judgment from careful research of both candidate's issues, positions, experience, and observations about how they have run their campaigns.

Do we really want our first female president to be the wife of a former president? What about a woman who campaigns on her own exceptional experience and ability to rally the country rather than one who uses her husband as a prop? That's a woman I'll vote for happily.

Besides, if how you run a campaign is any indication of how you'll do running the country or at the very least how you handle pressure, Obama is by far the strongest candidate.

Carmen

Rachel, the only reason you have for voting Republican if Obama wins the race is "because you can't stand the guy?" Because you think it's just men voting for him "based on gender"? So, basically, you can't stand him because he dares to run against our first viable woman candidate? You want to vote for McCain, a man who accepts the mantle of the Bush presidency and an indefinite stay in Iraq, so that "you can say, I told you so, in November?" What a cynical, bitter, destructive, and ultimately stereotypical position. Please. Get real.

I consider myself a feminist, but I don't think voting for someone just because she happens to be a woman a very feminist position. I am a feminist who is glad that I have the ability to exercise my own mind and own judgment from careful research of both candidate's issues, positions, experience, and observations about how they have run their campaigns.

Do we really want our first female president to be one who gets a large number of votes because she is the wife of a former president? What about a woman who campaigns on her own exceptional experience and ability to rally the country rather than one who uses her husband as a prop? That's a woman I'll vote for happily.

Besides, if how you run a campaign is any indication of how you'll do running the country or at the very least how you handle pressure, Obama is by far the strongest candidate.

Carmen
(age 30)

Being a man(and thus, not having a clue how this would play), I think Obama would be very wise to take Kathleen Sebelius as his running mate. Sebelius shores him up among BOTH independents and women.

I don't think Obama needs national security experience. McCain will play the fear card no matter who Obama runs with. All Obama should do is effectively parry it by attacking Republicans as foreign policy nincompoops.

I also think Obama should ignore McCain and start using the Republican Party as a strawman to bash. Attach McCain to the Republicans, attack the Republicans, and presto! Obama wins.

Hey Rachel-Chill out and quit hating men. Even if Hil does win (God Forbid), there will not be enough room for you in her shower!

McCain was not born on US territory and thus is not entitled to run for presidency LEGALY!

Huckebee '08 vs Obama '08

When it gets down to the issues at stake, and how the voters trust each candidate, this is how November will shake out:

--------DEMOCRATIC----------REPUBLICAN
-MOST---------------THE-------------------MOST
LIBERAL------------MIDDLE------------CONSERVATIVE

OBAMA......................McCAIN.................

-------T-H-E----V-O-T-I-N-G----P-U-B-L-I-C-------

More voters will identify with McCain and where he stands!

I'm surprised at the doubt people still have about Obama being able to win in the general. He's dominated fundraising, dominated the ground game, and the democrats have been rallied like never before in their history. The man wins elections, the republican leadership is terrified, and it could well lead to decades of democratic ownship of capital hill. You only need to look at the turnout in the primaries to see the lopsided victory that's coming.

But keep underestimating and ridiculing him. It'll be that much more historic when he wins.

Women don't "resent" Obama "taking the crown away" from Clinton. And it is insulting to suggest that is so.

Far from believing the nomination belonged to Clinton, many if not most of us (perhaps because we are more aware of the depth of gender unease and hostility in the culture than men), despite initial polling which mostly reflected name recognition, never expected Clinton to get the nomination. The fact that she has won the number of primaries she has is historically groundbreaking -- but believing that the very first "credible" female candidate (that is the first to enjoy ANY kind of establishment support) would win the actual nomination has always been a stretch.

There are many women like me who expected to support Obama. But, we have been surprised, disturbed, and profoundly disappointed, by his campaign's exploitation of racial and gender animosities. It simply is not possible to believe that a candidate who is happy to use gender-loaded, stereotyped Republican-type personal character attacks ("calculating," "vicious," "will do or say anything to get elected," etc) against a female candidate, who sends surrogates out to dismiss female voters with ridiculous stereotypes about how they vote on "emotion" and accuse the candidate herself of being a racist who "didn't cry for Katrina," is someone who is genuinely respectful of women, will, as president, pay anything more than lip service to the issues that profoundly affect women's lives and the lives of the family members who depend on them, or, is, as so many Obama supporters seem to believe without any real examination, in any way a genuine progressive.

Mature voters understand that any candidate choice they make requires some compromises. But women perhaps more than men have been made aware, throughout this campaign, of the large disconnect between what Obama claims to stand for and how, in action, he really performs.

We know he is not what he says he is. So, what exactly is he? How much and what kind of compromise will we have to tolerate on issues that are not only profoundly important to us as individuals, but, considering our importance in the economy, as caretakers and economic contributors to our families, and the important roles we play in the nation's social institutions, are, we believe, equally important to the health and well-being of the country at large?

I can't vote for McCain. I may write in an alternative. But the Democratic party and Obama have lost my vote by revealing the depths of their hypocrisy and cowardice.

Clinton, who I did not support in the first place, had nothing to do with it.

Pls note that the movement of Obamicans or RFOs (Republicans For Obma) is growing! As a Christian, Husband, Father of four, Veteran of OIF, homeowner, taxpayer and life long Republican I am going for the candidate that offers the best chance of an "interoperability political change!" -Julian

I do not understand how anyone who calls themselves a feminist can choose to "sit out," write in a throw-away name, or vote for McCain in the upcoming election. If nothing else, the Supreme Court is critical: Justice Stephens is quite elderly and will likely soon retire; Justice Bader Ginsburg is in poor health. Permitting John McCain to replace 2 "liberal" Justices on the Court -- which has already shifted rightward -- could well shift our jurisprudence with respect to civil liberties, the right of privacy, etc., in a dramatic, disastrous fashion, for a long time to come.

Your vote is -- all of our votes are -- important.

This nomination process has had unfortunate media-focused moments where gender or race issues are presented in a poor or divisive fashion.

I see NO basis, however, for the charge that Obama has engaged in gender-divisive language or tactics. (Indeed, any candidate would be foolish to engage in such language or tactics, as women make up > 50% of the voting population.)

I agree that certain words, like "shrill," are gender-laden. Comments like "do anything to get elected" or "vicious" are not. Both things are commonly said about, for example, Karl Rove; the former said about Bill Clinton. There is nothing gender-based or anti-women in these concepts. (Anti-Clinton, perhaps.)

"Emotion" -- thinking with one's heart, rather than one's head -- is often considered a feminine characteritic, but if anything it has been applied more to Obama & his supporters, than Clinton & her supporters. In fact, Obama's supporters are described as hyper-emotional, almost lacking in any rationality whatsoever -- Obama is feminized by Dowd, etc., her favorite thing to do with Democratic men.

Both campaigns have not always been well-served by their surrogates (incl. Bill Clinton); but I have heard nothing that I would consider racist from the mouth of Senator Clinton, and I have heard nothing that I would consider sexist from the mouth of Senator Obama.

If Obama is the nominee, I sincerely hope that, by November, the importance of this election will be such that the feminists that currently oppose Obama will reconsider their votes.

Lynn --

I've been voting for Democrats for 30 years because the Republicans are so much "worse."

In all that that time the Democrats have never come through on the feminist issues, like pay equity, child care, etc., and the broader, more important social and family welfare issues that in a new economy in which the workplace is less and less likely to provide things like health care, retirement benefits, a family wage, reasonable security, etc., are increasingly important to the maintenance of the middle class family life and the ability of the poor to move into the middle class. We don't even get serious discussion of these issues that are too often dismissively referred to as "women's issues." (You know, those little issues of life, death and everything important that happens in between.)

When do we say "enough?" And when do they stop expecting us to fall in line and vote based on nothing more than fear of what the other guys will do on abortion?

And when do we stop falling for that pitch?

The size of the poll is tiny - 1508 people. That's so small, that it could easily be skewed, especially if it was done with more people from one area or demographic group. These figures really don't tell us much of anything, and are out of line with the recent, consistent trend in national polls in what they claim to reveal. Not worth losing sleep over. Larison should know better than to make mischief this way - but he is a Republican, not an unbiased analyst.

It is strange how it is whites or white women who think Obama has engaged in a race baiting campaign. He has done none of that. He has stayed as far away from race as possible because he knows he cannot win from that position. Hillary on the other hand has offended just about everyone in her climb to the nomination. She always mentions how historic it would be to have a woman president. The truth of the matter is that it would be even more historic to have an African American president (after more than two centuries of slavery and about forty years since Jim Crow segregation ended) yet you never hear Obama mention this fact. Our dreams have always been subsumed or "deferred" by whites and now whites must accept this black man ruling the country after more than two hundred years of white rule and you would think the world has come to an end. The feminist flagbearers want to vote for "white" McCain. Too much! But I knew a long time ago your feminism was for white women and not women. That is why you cannot understand how a black man can be the most progressive feminist candidate in the race. When you grasp this concept, you will be able to call yourself true feminists and progressives. In the meantime, if the Democratic Party loses votes in the general election because some white women are bitter over Hillary so be it. The Democratic Party has to stand for a progressive agenda and to get that we will have to purge the party of some voters that way true progressives can replace them.

mary writes: "In all that that time the Democrats have never come through on the feminist issues, like pay equity, child care, etc., and the broader, more important social and family welfare issues that in a new economy in which the workplace is less and less likely to provide things like health care, retirement benefits, a family wage, reasonable security, etc., are increasingly important to the maintenance of the middle class family life and the ability of the poor to move into the middle class. We don't even get serious discussion of these issues that are too often dismissively referred to as "women's issues." (You know, those little issues of life, death and everything important that happens in between.)

When do we say "enough?" And when do they stop expecting us to fall in line and vote based on nothing more than fear of what the other guys will do on abortion?

And when do we stop falling for that pitch?"

Perhaps you haven't noticed it, mary, but the Dems only had the presidency for 8 years since 1981, which covers most of your 30 years. And Clinton only had a Dem legislature for 2 years.

It seems like you're giving up on your support just when it might mean something. Smooth move. Also sort of gutless and stupid, but very smooth. So vote for McCain or Nader and then if McCain wins you and all of the other whinebags can live in the hopeless misery you seem to prefer.

Or do you really think the country is just as well off now as it was in 2000? I don't. I'm willing to try one more time.

...and the democrats have been rallied like never before in their history.

This is delusional.

Clinton has gotten 60% of the white Democrat vote. Oabama has only won white Democrats twice (Illinois and New Mexico). She has 67% of the Hispanic vote. Cite

Most importantly, even an imperfect metric such as the exit polls shows she's ahead slightly in overall Democrat votes.

The one thing Obama has not done thus far is rally the party. It's split wide open.

Cal, don't be so melodramatic. Of course voters are divided in a strongly contested race between two major contenders. That's not a split in the party, more like a family disagreement that will mostly work out in the long term, however heated it seems now.

TheBannedMoeLarryAndJesus --

Perhaps you have just forgotten, or are too young to realize, that the Democrats controlled the House, and for most of the time both the House and the Senate, during the years of Reagan and Bush I. Did they not serve the interest of their less powerful constituencies better during that time because they didn't have any power to act otherwise, or because they didn't think they had to act otherwise?

Maybe you don't remember that the pols who controlled the House and were too spooked by Harry and Louise to get Health Care reform passed in the early 90s were Democrats. (That, the House Banking Scandal, Rostenkowski's "ghost" employees and other self-dealing hi-jinks got them thrown out in '94).

On the one hand, Democrats have spent the last 28 years arguing that they shouldn't be held accountable for their failures because they are the victims of the too evil Republicans.

On the other hand, they now argue that all those constituencies that they have been routinely failing should vote for Obama because he likes Republicans.

That's not logic. That's neurosis. Or, a sham.

Clinton has gotten 60% of the white Democrat vote. Oabama has only won white Democrats twice (Illinois and New Mexico).

Non-white Democrats clearly don't count.

"Clinton has gotten 60% of the white Democrat vote. Oabama has only won white Democrats twice (Illinois and New Mexico). She has 67% of the Hispanic vote. Cite

Most importantly, even an imperfect metric such as the exit polls shows she's ahead slightly in overall Democrat votes.

The one thing Obama has not done thus far is rally the party. It's split wide open."


The white vote (about 50/50) and black vote about 50/50 and in some cases higher for Clinton) were being split between both candidates UNTIL the Clintons went racist in South Carolina. That resulted in a complete shift of the black vote to Obama. Your inability to recognize this is the reason it worked so well.

Since then, whites have voted for Clinton because the Clintons knew that when race is injected into anything whites think they are not supposed to be on the same side as blacks so they immediately look for the opposite side even if it is the WRONG side. Congratulations, the Clintons proved that even so called liberal whites are racists. Of course, most blacks already knew that. White liberals have been content to take our votes and offer us crumbs for our loyalty; now we have the AUDACITY to ask for a piece of the ACTUAL PIE. The silver lining (and there is one) is when the dust settled from the race bomb the Clintons dropped in South Carolina, white liberals took a long look at how they were used in this equation and started to make their way back to Obama. That is why you have seen such comprehensive victories by Obama over the last eleven contests. He is getting the votes of EVERYONE; just as he did before the Clintons exploded the race bomb.

Maybe the Democrats know something the "independents" do not? After all, they've been paying attention. Independents and apolitical voters are famous for not knowing much about the candidates.

Obama's strength among these voters is due to his media coverage and his non-confrontational schtick. When America (or should I said if) finds out what a leftist Obama is, it will be 1988 all over again. When America finds out that Obama is not the man that transcends race but is in fact a man obsessed with race and devoted to advancing black interests first and foremost (as his wife wrote in her poorly written college thesis), he'll collapse among independents and suburban whites who want to vote for the feel good candidate.

The white vote (about 50/50) and black vote about 50/50 and in some cases higher for Clinton)

You really should look up data before you blather on. This is completely untrue.

Only two contests held before South Carolina had a significant African American vote. One was Nevada, where Obama won 83% of the black vote. The other was Michigan, where 68% of blacks voted for "Uncommitted".

Non-white Democrats clearly don't count.

No. White non-Democrats don't count. And without them, Obama not only hasn't won the white vote, he's lost it by a huge margin.

No. White non-Democrats don't count. And without them, Obama not only hasn't won the white vote, he's lost it by a huge margin.

And the Clinton campaign descends into self parody. White non-Democrats "don't count", black Democrats don't count. Clinton wins the White Democrat vote by a "huge margin" and so is the inevitable winner of the Democratic nomination... or something.


In stead of reporting someone's opinions, it is time for journalists to get off of the coach, and be journalists - go out and investigate.

www.jewishpress.com

I will not vote for Obama because of his organization funding the PLO, a terrorist organization and his relationship with someone who was involved with an attempted bombing in the US.


In stead of reporting someone's opinions, it is time for journalists to get off of the coach, and be journalists - go out and investigate.

www.jewishpress.com

I will not vote for Obama because of his organization funding the PLO, a terrorist organization and his relationship with someone who was involved with an attempted bombing in the US.

Mary --

I can appreciate your comments; it sounds like you have a broader issue than faulting Obama's campaign for being "sexist" (which I don't think is true) -- instead, you appear to be giving up on the Democratic party as a whole due to their lack of tangible accomplishments -- incl., presumably, the lack of accomplishments during the triangulating Clinton years. I'm certain many women feel this way ("we've supported them all along, and what tangible improvements have we gotten?"); as have many other groups, such as African Americans (what did they get out of the Clinton years, really? "end it, don't mend it?" welfare reform? Sister Souljah?); gays ("don't ask, don't tell?", defense of marriage act?), etc. Similar frustrations have been expressed on groups from the Right, as well (we, the evangelicals / social conservatives, have been the reason you Republicans are in power -- and where has it gotten us? David Souter?).

Fine. We're all frustrated. Politics is a frustrating game, our political system is imperfect, our politicians are really, really imperfect.

When do we say enough?, you ask.
I say, never. I will never give up & I will never stop voting for the candidate who both has a viable chance of winning & who most closely represents my views. Your comment reminds me of an earnest young male Nader supporter who I came across in 2000 who, after I said I was voting for Gore -- launched into a speech about how the Democrats & Republicans are all beholden to corporate interests, and when would I say, "enough is enough" (& vote Nader)? Well-intentioned, certainly, but those kinds of choices led to the Iraq war, torture, a widening income gap, a shifting supreme court, and the rather incredible circumstance of an inflationary recession during a wartime economy -- the last 7 years have been a disaster.

In the most charitable view of Nader (which I don't really ascribe to), he believes that by "punishing" the Democrats for not being progressive enough (& causing an election year loss in Year A), will cause the Democrats to wake up & move leftward & all will be good & well when they run again & win on the renewed mega-progressive platform in Year A+4. This, in my view, will not happen. A weak & divided Democratic party cannot move leftward; it has to move to the center to compete -- as the status quo center continues to move further right. Only a strong, united Democratic party can establish itself as a governing party in a firm position & then hope to move leftward. That's my view.

For people that really thinks there's no difference between a Gore & a Bush -- or between an Obama & a McCain -- then, fine, walk away. Otherwise, please stay & fight.

While I found the survey and analysis of this thread of little import, the follow-on posts are fascinating and thought provoking to me. Well, ignoring the trolls and single issue monomaniacs. I don't have a nominee/party choice yet this time around. I'd certainly like to read more considered posts. I'm finding places like this to be more useful than the campaign Web pages for having points for thought made.

Party on, dudes. (pun intended)

"You really should look up data before you blather on. This is completely untrue.

Only two contests held before South Carolina had a significant African American vote. One was Nevada, where Obama won 83% of the black vote. The other was Michigan, where 68% of blacks voted for "Uncommitted"."


It doesn't matter if there is a "significant" black vote; the percentage breakdown was the same and even Clinton leading in polls/causcus/primary. And there was even media asking why blacks are not supporting Obama. So I did not "blather." I have been playing close attention. Michigan and Nevada voted after the race baiting South Carolina tactics took place and by the time they got to South Carolina; Obama consolidated the black vote thanks to the Clintons. So why don't you do some research before you try to make comments about what I said.

If Obama is HIGH-risk, HIGH-reward, I suppose Hillary would be most accurately categorized as HIGH-risk, LOW-reward, right?

Seeing the deep division within the Democratic Party makes it perfectly clear, that their will be no rallying cry for either candidate. I believe because of the deep divide in the primaries, either Democrat will be damaged for the general. Coupled with the dangerously inexperienced, and frankly radical past of Senator Obama, we are looking at a repeat of 1972. The media lovefest will end soon. The lopsided turnout in the primaries means absolutely nothing. More Democrats in Kansas voted in the primary than Republicans did. Lets get serious people Obama has absolutely no chance of winning a state like Kansas in November. Looking at Senator McCain.. his age means nothing. Bashing his age didn't work with Reagan in 1984 and its not going to work now. McCain will do very well in three categories against Obama. Elderly voters, (who come out and droves) Military voters, and Hispanic voters. That essentially puts Florida, New Mexico, two swing states in McCain's column. New Mexico and Nevada will certainly be going for McCain he's from Arizona and those are moderate states. Polls are now showing people perceive Obama more liberal than Hillary and McCain being viewed as moderate by a majority of voters. The real races in November will be most likely in about 10 states. New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, and Colorado and Michigan. I believe the Republican ticket will be McCain/Pawlenty. Pawlenty is young (Obama's age ), relatively popular in a state that leans blue, Minnesota, has executive experience, and can cut into a core Democratic constituent, Teamsters, his father was a truck driver, and his popularity with those voters propelled him to victory in MN. I believe the only way Obama can win is if he chooses Hillary as VP.. to bridge the bitter divide from who ever narrowly wins this primary. If he brushes her off.. it is over for the Democrats. Btw.. are Obama fans forgetting about Michigan and Florida? Hillary will NEVER go away unless they are dealt with... and Howard Dean's plan of disenfranchising core Democratic voters in two large swing states is so disgustingly misguided in the first place.. he should of been forced to resign for letting that happen. If those states are not allowed to be seated at the national convention.. I guarantee Florida and Michigan go red, that spells game over for Obama.

Sidmore says: The white vote (about 50/50) and black vote about 50/50 and in some cases higher for Clinton) were being split between both candidates UNTIL the Clintons went racist in South Carolina.

When that's proven completely wrong, he says:

Right. So there's absolutely no evidence that African American Democrats ever split their vote between Obama and Clinton, but you'll just pretend.

As for whites, Hillary has been winning white Democrats by a commanding lead--not 50-50--since the beginning. Obama only made up the difference with white independents and Republicans.

It's very simple: in any general election, Obama will most certainly get the establishment Democratic votes that Hillary is getting now.

But there is no way that Hillary will get a huge chunk of Obama's votes. The young people, the first time voters, the independents...they all cannot stand Hillary. And it's only getting worse, as Hillary throws more dirt and sleazy tricks at Obama. She is burning her bridges.

In any general, Hillary is stuck at a ceiling that leaves her far short of any majority. At this point she cannot unify the party behind her; she has too many negatives.

downscale

adjective
intended for people with low incomes; "mass-produced downscale versions of high-priced fashions"

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