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Shari'a Comes For The Archbishop

11 Feb 2008 12:30 pm

rowanwilliams

I’ve done my duty and waded through the full text of the Rowan Williams address on “civil and religious law in England” that’s helped to kick up all the fuss about shari'a, and I can report that the Archbishop’s various defenders have a point – if you detach the address from the actual historical context in which it was delivered, you’re left with a somewhat-turgid but nonetheless interesting meditation on the relationship between civil law and religious law, and between the liberal state and religious communities.

Unfortunately, this is the historical context in which it was delivered:

A few weeks ago, I was chatting to a woman who works in an advocacy role for Muslim women in an area that, quite independently of the Bishop of Rochester, she described as a “no-go area” for non-Muslims. Her clients were women in the process of being sectioned into mental health units in the NHS. This woman, who for obvious reasons begged not to be identified, told me: “The men get tired of their wives. Or bored. Or maybe the wife objects to her daughter being forced into a marriage she doesn't want. Or maybe she starts wearing western clothes.There can be many reasons. The women are sent for asssessment to a hospital. The GP referring them is Muslim. The psychiatrist assessing them is Muslim and male. I have sat in these assessments where the psychiatrist will not look the woman patient in the eye because she is a woman. Can you imagine! A psychiatrist refusing to look his patient in the eye? The woman speaks little or no English. She is sectioned. She is divorced. There are lots of these women in there, locked up in these hospitals. Why don’t you people write about this?'

My interlocuter went very red and almost started to cry. Instead, she began shouting at me. I was a member of the press. “You must write about this,” she begged.

“I can’t,” I said. “Not unless you become a whistle-blower. Or give me some evidence. Or something.”

She shook her head. “I can't be identified,” she said. “I would be killed. And so would the women.”

Perhaps there will come a time when an Archbishop of Canterbury will have the luxury to muse at length on whether it might be appropriate for his nation to consider some sort of “plural jurisdiction” where Muslim communities are concerned. But regardless of his good intentions, it seems to me the height of folly for this head of the Church of England, at this moment in the history of his nation and his faith, to wander in the gardens of intellectual theory while brushing away the actual controversies on the ground. (“The ‘forced marriage’ question is the one most often referred to here, and it is at the moment undoubtedly a very serious and scandalous one; but precisely because it has to do with custom and culture rather than directly binding enactments by religious authority, I shall refer to another issue …”) It seems beyond irresponsible for a prelate in his position to build legal castles in the air, assuring us that “if any kind of plural jurisdiction is recognised, it would presumably have to be under the rubric that no ‘supplementary’ jurisdiction could have the power to deny access to the rights granted to other citizens or to punish its members for claiming those rights,” at a time when Her Majesty’s government seems incapable of preventing the spread of a de facto plural jurisdiction that may do exactly that. And it is frankly embarrassing for a man charged with the defense of Christianity in England to behave as though he's more interested in generalizing about religions (“the umma or the Church or whatever …”) than in drawing distinctions between them, or to imply that there is little in the theology, history and politics of Islam - save for what "some committed Islamic primitivists" would have you believe - that would distinguish it from any other "religious minority" seeking a "degree of accommodation" from the liberal state.

In short, he seems like a complete wally to me.

Photo by Flickr user SouthbankSteve used under a Creative Commons license.

Comments (45)

With his basic tendency towards fuzzy liberal religion, Rowan Williams is presiding over a disastrous breakup of the Anglican Communion. His efforts to hold the Communion together have been feckless.

Now, with this foolish and dangerous lecture, he is involved in caving in to the extreme Muslims who wish to place Sharia law over British civil law.

The fundamental tenet of the Jihadists is to establish a world-wide caliphate with Sharia law. Rowan Williams is helping to make his country ready for this Caliphate. For shame!

I understand exactly what is happening, and it isn't something that is going to make religious conservatives very happy.

As the threat of Islamic terror has grown, it has brought out the contradictions in the beliefs of Christian conservatives, who tend to be both hyper-Christian and also hyper-militaristic.

So the tendency is to want to start an explicitly religious war between conservative Christianity and Islam. But if you do that, it's obviously going to set some very uncomfortable precedents, because while conservative Christians aren't as bad as Islamic fundamentalists, the difference is one of degree, not of kind-- conservative Christians are all about imposing unreasonable limits on people's personal behavior in the name of tradition and alleged divine revelation from centuries ago, just like Islamic fundamentalism.

Along comes Dinesh D'Souza (he was first, although I think that Pat Buchanan was making a version of this argument during the Salman Rushdie controversy), and now Rowan Williams, to argue a more consistent position but one that offends Christian conservatives to no end-- that they should make common cause with the dreaded Muslims.

Look, what needs to happen-- and won't-- is that Christian conservatives need to take this as a big civics lesson on the importance of the separation of Church and State, and abandon their efforts to use any legislation to impose their morality on nonbelievers or other sorts of Christians. That's the only way everyone can get along.

Arch. Williams' musings are ridiculously detatched from the reality of civil-religious relations in the UK, and institutionalizing Sharia law would indeed be a Very Bad Idea.

But let's keep some perspective here. There is no looming Caliphate in Europe. The vast majority of Muslims, even those who want to live under Sharia are not extemists out to conquer the world. They are an immigrant community which is underintegrated into European society and sometimes seeks the certainties of traditional practices. This can lead to the kind of abuses and social patholgy described, and thus secular, civil law needs to be predominant.

However, we need to see this problem for what it really is: a problem of integration and assimilation, not a Clash of Civilizations.

I mean Damn Peter, to listen to you, you'd think all Muslims have cloven hoves. Keep some perpsective here.

Justin K writes: "I mean Damn Peter, to listen to you, you'd think all Muslims have cloven hoves. Keep some perpsective here."

Have you read many of Petey's posts? The guy's a wackaloon hard-right gibberish-spewer supreme.

Rowan Williams does reason a disservice, but there's no danger of any Caliphate emerging even in the Middle East, let alone Western Europe. Petey's eschatology depends on paranoia.

Wow - seems like a pretty narrow sense of historical context to me. What, further, are we supposed to conclude from this? Seems to me that it supports the Archbishop's position more than Ross's: better to bring Sharia(s) out into the open than have them thrive is silence. The current state of affairs clearly isn't working, so it's clearly worthwhile to consider other options.

What this really shows is that it was a mistake for England to ever adopt the principle of separation of church and state, and to abandon the idea that Christianity is a definitive aspect of British identity. A society that embraces the idea that all religions are equal and that religion should be separate from government, will quite likely end up with Shariah.

What's particularly galling is that many of these people are the descendents of the same Muslims in India who were coddled and favored by the British, who are now biting the hand that fed them. The British should place limits on Muslim immigration, now, is the key to saving England.

The only antidote to false religion is true religion.

Hector writes: "What this really shows is that it was a mistake for England to ever adopt the principle of separation of church and state, and to abandon the idea that Christianity is a definitive aspect of British identity. A society that embraces the idea that all religions are equal and that religion should be separate from government, will quite likely end up with Shariah."

If Thomas Jefferson were alive he'd punch you in the mouth, Hector.

Recent attempts by morons in this country to reduce the separation of church and state are in the process of being rejected as we speak, and it's a good thing.

Moe,

You don't have to _believe_ in the truth of Christianity to accept that it is a foundational aspect of English identity. An England that was Muslim would no longer be England.

I would not expect you to believe that Christianity is true, but I would except that you would acknowledge it is better than Islam.

Justin K writes: "I mean Damn Peter, to listen to you, you'd think all Muslims have cloven hoves. Keep some perpsective here."

MoeLarryAndJesus: Have you read many of Petey's posts? The guy's a wackaloon hard-right gibberish-spewer supreme.

Yeah, Petey, Muslims are people too. It's not like they're totally whacko, stupid monsters, like Christians. You're never going to develop a rapport with sane, moderate voices like MLJ if you keep spewing such insane bile. And it would help if you could somehow work in references to fecal matter too. He likes that.

Deuce, my apologies for leaving out the scatological stuff in which Moe wallows. However, even we wacko, stupid, monstrous Christians have limits of taste. Moe is to sane moderation as Bonnie and Clyde were to banks.

Petey Leavitt replies: "Moe is to sane moderation as Bonnie and Clyde were to banks. "

You're no moderate, Petey - you're a far-right torture-loving genocidal maniac. You have more in common with Osama bin Laden than either of you would care to admit.

Hector replies: "You don't have to _believe_ in the truth of Christianity to accept that it is a foundational aspect of English identity. An England that was Muslim would no longer be England.

I would not expect you to believe that Christianity is true, but I would except that you would acknowledge it is better than Islam. "

I'll acknowledge that Western secular democracies are better than countries run by Islamic fundamentalists, Hector. They're also better than countries run by theocrats of any sort - yours included. Watching you and TMoC dream about what you would and would not allow in your fantasy Jesoid-dictatorships lately gave me the fucking creeps.

The avowedly secular England we have now is a whole lot better than Cromwell's Jesus-wacky England was, and perhaps you'll admit that.

I'm not sure what Hector means as Britain does not have separation of church and state. The Queen is the head of state and the head of the Church of England. The CoE is the established Church of the UK. Separation of Church and State would not allow such a thing. The "head of state" in US or France has no religious role whatsoever and an established religion is not allowed.

Granted the idea of CoE as a requirement for "Englishness" did end with the Emancipation acts of the nineteenth century. So is Hector suggesting that allowing Catholics and Jews to serve in Parliament was a slippery slope toward an indifferentism that somehow leads to Islamic law? I never thought of him as that extreme, so I'm guessing not.

In any event in the US, without an established Church, Radical Islam is per capita less significant than the UK. It could be argued that the the UK not having such a separation is causing a problem. In the modern times establishing just one faith seems discriminatory so Muslims, including Radical ones, have a reason to demand recognition from the state in a way they would not here. Although I think more significant is that the UK actually ruled Islamic lands and gets more Muslim immigrants per capita.

One might be skeptical that, in a country where perhaps 2% of the population are Pakistani immigrants, there are all that many Muslim and male psychiatrists willing to collude with husbands to send sane women into indefinite civil committment. Does anyone know the standards applied in civil committment proceedings in England as opposed to New York or California?

As the threat of Islamic terror has grown, it has brought out the contradictions in the beliefs of Christian conservatives, who tend to be both hyper-Christian and also hyper-militaristic.


So the tendency is to want to start an explicitly religious war between conservative Christianity and Islam.

I think you need to render yourself more familiar with the Catholic and Evangelical press. Traditional Catholics tend often to have an affinity with 'palaeoconservative' politics. As for the Evangelical element, the Rev. Mr. Huckabee hardly represents the most bellicose strain in contemporary American opinion. (Please note Hugh FitzGerald is a professed non-believer, as is Christopher Hitchens).


But if you do that, it's obviously going to set some very uncomfortable precedents, because while conservative Christians aren't as bad as Islamic fundamentalists, the difference is one of degree, not of kind-- conservative Christians are all about imposing unreasonable limits on people's personal behavior

Some taxonomies are better than others.

That aside, regulatory ordinances, whether they be speed limits, statutes defining sex offences, laws mandating 'fair employment practices', or fractional reserve requirements imposed on banks, impose limits on people's behavior. The people so limited tend to think this 'unreasonable'. Communities too large to have an effective consensus on behavioral norms tend to contain this sort of discontent.

Re: What this really shows is that it was a mistake for England to ever adopt the principle of separation of church and state

When did this happen? Last I checked the Church of England remains a state church and the Queen is still Defender of the Faith.

Re: and to abandon the idea that Christianity is a definitive aspect of British identity.

So there are no British Jews according to you? And what about Bertrand Russel, Christopher Hitchens, Edward Gibbon, David Hume, et al. All good atheists whom you would strip of their Britishness?

Re: A society that embraces the idea that all religions are equal and that religion should be separate from government, will quite likely end up with Shariah.

Hector, that makes no logical sense. A society that keeps religion and govermnment separate could never become a Shari'a state since Shari'a is the exact opposite! That's like saying we should get rid of the 13th amendment since if we don't we will someday go back to having slavery.

All you need to do is read this:
http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/pdf/CrimesOfTheCommunity.pdf

Now come back with a straight face, and tell me that we can just do with the nice bits of Shari'a (whatever they might be) and dispense with all the nastiness.

Doesn't work. Archbishop is not living in this world, and worse yet, he'd abandon these women to their familial prisons.

He's a craven sell-out. Can him if he won't resign.

"The Queen is the head of state"

Just bringing this up in case there's confusion. By saying she's "head of state" I'm not saying she retains any real political power. I don't think there was such confusion, but in the US the head of state is also the head of government. So it might be possible someone could get confused or think that I mean she leads their state/nation, which is not what I mean. "Head of state" is largely symbolic in many nations.

It is interesting how all this "historical arguments context" stuff can be turned down against evangelist fundamentalists that conservatives like Douhat or Neuhaus pet so enthusiastically. But anyways, arshbisphob Williams DOESNT have point, with or without context. The context just reafirms, again, why religion and state must be separated, and must remain that way, per secula seculorum

The fact that Rowan Williams is a fuzzy-headed wanker diligently working against the best interests of his congregation has long been established. The larger issue here it seems to me is the extent to which British and other European nanny states have failed to absorb Muslim immigrants as a function of political correctness.

We don't have much of a problem in the US with our rather large number of Muslim immigrants because everyone has to go to work. There's no question of special exemptions from the normal expectations--you can pray however you like, but beating the wife or leaving the daughter tied up in the closet for wearing makeup will get you arrested. In much of Europe Muslim immigrants are maintained on the dole like exotic zoo animals, leaving their young men with lots of time on their hands to contemplate the various injustices of life. That's why todays most significant threat from Islamic terrorism centers on places like Birmingham, Hamburg, and the Paris suburbs rather than Afghanistan.

Dilan Esper {writes}

“I understand exactly what is happening, and it isn't something that is going to make religious conservatives very happy.”

Yep …were just overjoyed that the cult of multiculturalism can’t distinguish between good public policy and bad public policy when the advocate is off-white in color.

“As the threat of Islamic terror has grown, it has brought out the contradictions in the beliefs of Christian conservatives, who tend to be both hyper-Christian and also hyper-militaristic.”

Yep…like the Pope balling Bush out for going into Iraq.

“So the tendency is to want to start an explicitly religious war between conservative Christianity and Islam. But if you do that, it's obviously going to set some very uncomfortable precedents, because while conservative Christians aren't as bad as Islamic fundamentalists, the difference is one of degree, not of kind-- conservative Christians are all about imposing unreasonable limits on people's personal behavior in the name of tradition and alleged divine revelation from centuries ago, just like Islamic fundamentalism.”

And here’s the crux of the problem. Secular extremists can role over for Islam yet cant understand their own foundational civilizational tenets because they happen to also be reflected in Christianity.


“Look, what needs to happen-- and won't-- is that Christian conservatives need to take this as a big civics lesson on the importance of the separation of Church and State, and abandon their efforts to use any legislation to impose their morality on nonbelievers or other sorts of Christians. That's the only way everyone can get along.”

Or extremist nihilist secularist need to understand that somewhere between the burka & the thong bikini is a sensible, reasonable middle. The same protagonists in the culture war that cant distinguish between family forms (despite their precious science backing it up), the vice of pornography (despite their precious feminists backing it up) general ceremonial deism (despite their precious Jefferson backing it up): are the extremists who cant distinguish between post enlightenment Christian moral though & the dictates of bronze age fanatics.

Kind & degree indeed. A extremist is an extremist is an extremist.

Speaking as a secular liberal who is technically an Episcopalian, I mostly agree with Ross on this one. Rowan stepped in it because of the political context. There's nothing inherently wrong with the vague, ecumenical sentiments about religious pluralism in his address, but Sharia Law is fundamentally incompatible with the values of Western society. And this is perfectly reflective of the Archbishop's generally fuzzy-headed, weak, reflexively moderate style of leadership on all moral issues.

I'm sure that we have different motivations here-- Ross has some tendencies toward Catholic Chauvinism and scaremongering about Islam, whereas I'm a progressive who gets easily pissed off whenever religion is used as an excuse to treat women like dirt-- but the point is a worthy one. Whatever our feelings about religious and cultural pluralism, there are lines that need to be drawn. We do not tolerate insulated pockets of abusive misogyny in our cities, and "faith" is no excuse whatsoever for this shit.

Ross, do you even bother with five minutes of googling before posting your stuff? Even when it comes from the notoriously unreliable London press? Try this link on the plausibility of the conspiracy-to-lock-up-Muslim-wives story:

http://www.mentalnurse.org.uk/2008/02/08/evil-muslims-raping-our-food-and-eating-our-wives/#more-575

Secular extremists can role over for Islam yet cant understand their own foundational civilizational tenets because they happen to also be reflected in Christianity.

Fitz, this is BS. Is Christianity a part of Western Culture? Sure. Did it contribute some important ideas to our culture? Sure.

But is it responsible for our "foundational civilizational tenets"? NO FREAKING WAY. Indeed, Christianity, at least in its organized form, has been either opposed to or divided on many important tenets of modern Western civilization.

Consider:

Advances of science-- opposed by organized Christianity for at least 500 years.
Separation of Church and State-- opposed by organized Christianity.
The Enlightenment philosophers-- opposed by organized Christianity.
The Constitution and Declaration of Independence-- developed by Deists, not Christians.
The Civil Rights Movement-- divided Christianity, with many churches following the lead of the Southern Baptists.
The Anti-Slavery Movement-- divided Christianity, with many churches following the lead of the Southern Baptists.
The Women's Rights Movement-- opposed by organized Christianity.
The Gay Rights Movement-- vehemently opposed by organized Chirstianity.
Capitalism-- divided Christianity.

At best, some sects of Christianity have been on the right side of a handful of the major debates that formed the crucible of Western Civilization. But most of the time, organized Christianity has been dead wrong.

Christians should remember that one of the seven deadly sins is pride. Especially false pride.

Dilan Esper

Boy did you miss my point... WAY off the mark!

(I wrote)
"Secular extremists can role over for Islam yet cant understand their own foundational civilization tenets because they happen to also be reflected in Christianity."

"Fitz, this is BS. Is Christianity a part of Western Culture? Sure. Did it contribute some important ideas to our culture? Sure.

But is it responsible for our "foundational civilizational tenets"? NO FREAKING WAY. Indeed, Christianity, at least in its organized form, has been either opposed to or divided on many important tenets of modern Western civilization."


Now I could be drawn into an argument you seem to want to have regarding your list.
(A list that can easily be disputed point by point)

Instead I'll draw your attention back to what I was actually maintaining..

Secular extremists can role over for Islam yet cant understand their own foundational civilizational tenets because they happen to also be reflected in Christianity.

That is "secular extremist" (represented by You {?}& multiculturalism)

cant understand & need to reject impulsively "civilization tenets" (no matter what/who is responsible for their development) that are also “reflected in Christianity.”

I take it as evidence of a grounded mind that you cede the fact that there are core civilizational tenets to begin with.

Once this is established then its possible to gauge wither “secular extremists” or anyone else is capable of supporting or undermining such tenets.

Fitz:

I don't roll over for anyone. Christianity and Islam should be treated exactly the same. The freedom to believe in dumb, untrue, imaginary things is absolute. At the same time, the tenets of both faiths should be completely ignored and disregarded in making government policy.

ALL of these debates are the result of Christians who want special treatment for their own faith while trashing Islam. My imaginary friend is better than yours. Nothing more to it than that.

Dilan,

_Of course_ Christianity deserves special treatment with regard to Islam. England is a Christian country, goddamnit. England is the country of Durham Cathedral, John Donne, "Be Thou My Vision", "Jerusalem", the Wesley brothers, Cardinal Newman, Thomas Cranmer, the ethic of fair play, Christian socialism, the "Republic of the Saints', and all the rest of it. These are constitutive elements of the English essence. England can exist with small Hindu and Muslim minorities inside it, just as it coexisted with a Jewish population that was always (contra JonF) tiny in numbers. But an England that was no longer predominantly Christian, at least in a loose sense of the word, in faith and values would no longer be England.

You appear to be intent on bollixing up the United States, and I can't stop you. Please don't try to do the same to England.

Re: Advances of science-- opposed by organized Christianity for at least 500 years.

That's a gross exaggeration. There are exactly two instances in history of Christianity (in any of its major denominations) opposing science: the Galileo business (which was mainly a Catholic production) and anti-Darwinism (mainly a North American evangelical Protestant production). That's hardly 500 years of united Christian opposition to science!

Re: Separation of Church and State-- opposed by organized Christianity.

That situation is far more complicated than your brief blurb captures, and it would take a vast post to discuss it. All I will say is that with certain exceptions (the Papal States, a handful of German cities, Calvin's Geneva and Cromwell's England) Church and State have always been separate in Christendom. The problem was never a lack of separation (except in the previously cited exceptions) but that the two meddled too much in each other's business.

Re: The Enlightenment philosophers-- opposed by organized Christianity.

You are aware that those Enlightenment philosophes counted any number of French churchmen-- bishops, monseigneurs, abbes-- as their close friends?

Re: The Constitution and Declaration of Independence

A handful of the Founders were Deists. Jefferson and Franklin, chiefly. Most were what we now call either mainstream or liberal Christians. (Few if any qualified as proto-evangelicals however)

Re: The Anti-Slavery Movement-- divided Christianity, with many churches following the lead of the Southern Baptists.

By the 19th century, worldwide (since we are discussing Christianity after all, which does not begin at the Atlantic and end at the Pacific) most Christians opposed slavery.

Re: The Civil Rights Movement-- divided Christianity, with many churches following the lead of the Southern Baptists.

And many others marching with the REVEREND Martin Luther King Jr. Good grief.

Re: The Women's Rights Movement-- opposed by organized Christianity.

The record on that one is extremely mixed. It is certainly not true that there was unified or even majority Christian opposition!

Re: Capitalism-- divided Christianity.

Huh?


Hector: I am certainly aware that there were never very many Jews in Britain (and none at all officially between Edward III and Cromwell). However Disraeli was still thoroughly British whatever his religion. It is profoundly dangerous to mix religion with nationalism. That was what was wrong with WWII Japan, and with Philip II's Spain. That is what is wrong with modern Iran. That is still a besetting sin of much of Orthodox Europe. His Kingdom is not of this world, and in Him there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Of course_ Christianity deserves special treatment with regard to Islam. England is a Christian country, goddamnit. England is the country of Durham Cathedral, John Donne, "Be Thou My Vision", "Jerusalem", the Wesley brothers, Cardinal Newman, Thomas Cranmer, the ethic of fair play, Christian socialism, the "Republic of the Saints', and all the rest of it. These are constitutive elements of the English essence. England can exist with small Hindu and Muslim minorities inside it, just as it coexisted with a Jewish population that was always (contra JonF) tiny in numbers. But an England that was no longer predominantly Christian, at least in a loose sense of the word, in faith and values would no longer be England.

There's a name for this. Bigotry.

Time has proven this wrong, Hector. The most harmonious and friendly first world country on earth for Christians is the United States, with the separation of church and state which we split from the British Empire to enact.

JonF:

I noticed you left the gay rights movement on your list. Christianity is clearly on the wrong side that one, of course.

Fitz wrote: "Yep…like the Pope balling Bush"

Unfortunately the films of this event won't be released until 2066. I understand Dumbya squealed like a pig, though. And the Pope's pointy hat didn't come off until the very end.

Obviously 2066 to mark the Millennium of the Norman Conquest, no?

Europe was once known as "Christendom" for a reason. Without the history played out in The Church, we wouldn't have had a Renaissance, Reformation, or Enlightenment, much less the moral vision and institutional norms we take for granted today.

In terms of today, that advantages Christianity in some ways that are legitimate. Islam has its own advantages, earned through its own history. But "separation of church and state" is an idea Western culture owes to Christianity.

"Advances of science-- opposed by organized Christianity for at least 500 years."

Science is a pretty broad thing. Many of the great Universities known for science were founded by Christians. The Quakers and Jesuits were hugely important to science.

"Separation of Church and State-- opposed by organized Christianity."

It depends on what and who is meant here. Virtually no society had a real separation of religion/state until relatively recently. In China the state was not wedded to a single religion per se, but it was wedded to a series of metaphysical philosophies that included Gods and spirits. Rituals involving them were essentially to good citizenship. The Mongols, perhaps, could count as having such a separation but the state was still seen as a servant of God in some sense. Later the khanates became officially Buddhist or Muslim or what have you. Virtually all pagan societies in Europe, even the more democratic Pre-Christian Iceland, were led by individuals of ritual significance.

The notion of separating religion and state basically arose in Christendom. Its earliest advocates tended to be Christians such as certain Anabaptists. Traditional Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy) tended to oppose the notion on somewhat valid grounds. Full separation in the French mode can essentially cut many ideas out of the political market and render society from any tradition. Also from any cultural system that can check the power of the state.

"The Enlightenment philosophers-- opposed by organized Christianity."

And in many cases rightfully so. Many of them were dictatorial elitists or favored the kind of utopian sweeping away of tradition that caused the Reign of Terror. And, arguably, was taken up by totalitarianism in later times.

"The Constitution and Declaration of Independence-- developed by Deists, not Christians."

First many deists considered themselves Christians. Second this is something of a gross exaggeration as mentioned. The majority of men who signed these two documents were Christians. Even the ones who were Deists were coming from a Christian upbringing, culture, and were in certain cases even church-going.

"The Civil Rights Movement-- divided Christianity, with many churches following the lead of the Southern Baptists."

At the time the Civil Rights Movement divided America regardless of religion. If you look at the era I doubt you'll see irreligious people being universally positive on Martin Luther King Jr.

However the way you describe the division almost makes it sound two-way when it was more like three or more way. A notable percentage were neither for nor against, but sort of on the fence. They feared it was asking too much or would provoke a reaction that'd make things worse. That doesn't mean full-tilt racist had a near-majority following outside the Deep South and Indiana. In Kentucky Thurmond got only like 1% when he ran for President and when George Wallace spoke in most states he was often heckled.

"The Anti-Slavery Movement-- divided Christianity, with many churches following the lead of the Southern Baptists."

Outside the US South I'm not sure what these "many churches" would be. It's true slavery can be justified using the writings of St. Paul, but so can the idea that Christians should not enslave other Christians. Hence in Medieval Europe the few slaves that existed were generally pagans. This is unlike other societies where enslaving those of the same faith was commonplace.

The expansion of the idea to non-Christians did take time, but opposition to the slave trade was almost universal among Christians by the early nineteenth century and largely started by some of the most devout. Opposition to slavery itself had some divides in how it should end. Many Catholic thinkers believed that the masters had to be compensated in a system similar to what the British Empire did. Others favored it be a gradual process where by every child born a slave would be free on turning eighteen. Then, eventually as the slave trade was banned by then, the remaining slaves would die of old age. Others favored simple bans and as soon as possible.

Curiously even the pro-slaveryites who used the Bible were almost never able to find Biblical justification for race-based slavery. Hence a few who tried to justify slavery from the Bible came to advocate the idea of enslaving whites and were deemed cranks. In addition several of those who tried to justify slavery were Deists, toward the very end of the institution there were also evolutionist defenses of slavery, who felt that nature had given blacks a temperament that was best suited to slavery.

"The Women's Rights Movement-- opposed by organized Christianity."

There was a diversity of views and it depends what is meant by "the Women's Rights Movement." The Quakers were fairly significant to the notion of women's rights.

"The Gay Rights Movement-- vehemently opposed by organized Chirstianity."

Many elements of the gay-rights movement are so opposed to history and common-sense I can't see supporting it unambiguously as all that commendable. However in the 1955 an Anglo-Catholic pamphlet stated that being gay was something unchangeable and could be channeled or whatever for the "Glory of God,"
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:laLT3vghJZ4J:anglicanhistory.org/academic/hilliard_unenglish.pdf+%22UnEnglish+and+Unmanly:+Anglo-Catholicism+and+Homosexuality+By+...&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

That might sound backward now, but in 1955 UK homosexuality was still deemed a mental illness or even a crime.

"Capitalism-- divided Christianity."

Unregulated Laissez-faire capitalism can easily lead into an oligopolistic system of corruption and plutocracy. No nation currently practices it if they ever did. The Christians who opposed that were right to do so. (Ideally being a member of the Libertarian Party should still be deemed condemnable liberalism)

However some Christians chose to be wrong and argued a "Prosperity Gospel" or similar which valued an unrestrained exploitation of the working classes. The notion being if you were poor it's because you sinned or something.

Granted I believe in Capitalism as it's practiced today, with anti-trust laws and no child labor. I don't even believe in that much regulation, but I do believe some regulation is necessary. I don't want to return to the pre-Teddy Roosevelt era, hence I don't believe in Capitalism in pure form.

"England is a Christian country, goddamnit. England is the country of Durham Cathedral, John Donne, "Be Thou My Vision", "Jerusalem", the Wesley brothers, Cardinal Newman, Thomas Cranmer, the ethic of fair play, Christian socialism, the "Republic of the Saints', and all the rest of it. These are constitutive elements of the English essence. England can exist with small Hindu and Muslim minorities inside it, just as it coexisted with a Jewish population that was always (contra JonF) tiny in numbers."

So in a way these non-Christians should be something like dhimmis in your vision of England. Many aren't aware of this, but the Iranian majlis is required to have a Jewish member. Jewish people are likely a smaller minority in Iran than they are in England. The Zoroastrians also have a member as do one of the Christian denominations. (Assyrian or Armenian I think, maybe both)

However Iran makes it clear it's a Muslim country dagnabbit! These minorities understand that they are in a sense less Iranian or at least less central to what Iran means.

So I guess I was wrong. What you're saying is England really does need to go back and undo all that "religious Emancipation" stuff they did in the 1800s. Because I'm not sure how England could declare itself as simply some broadstrike "Christian" as this is not what is established now or ever. At the very least it'd need to make it clear it's "Trinitarian Christian" as I know of no nation, when it specified, that did not specify that. So they'd need to make it clear Mormons, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witness, etc are also not really English. That all these oddball little groups can be tolerated, but must always know they have no place in what it means to be English.

Thomas R.,

I didn't say that. Individual Englishmen can be Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, agnostic, or what have you. What I did say is that in order for England to be England, the cultural matrix within which they exist should be Christian, at least in a loose sense of the word.

Of course I think that Catholics and Nonconformists should be equal in civil rights to Anglicans. And I don't think that England should retract the emancipation of Catholics, Jews and nonconformists which happened in the early 1800s. England was a Catholic state for longer than it was an Anglican one, after all. I would like to see an England in which the legal system draws on a broadly Christian value system and in which the state promotes the value of a broadly Christian religion.

I would _not_ like to see a state in which Philip Pullman and the advocates of Shariah are treated as just other 'voices' that need to be heard, and the state takes a completely neutral position between them.

JonF,

You have a point. But wouldn't you agree that the bigger problem with WWII Japan was that they believed in racial conquest, and the bigger problem with modern Iran is that they allow men to marry nine year olds and stone women to death for adultery. In other words it's the _content_ of the religion that matters, not the fact that the government draws on religion.

Dilan,

Most of the items on your list are largely untrue. Slavery was largely eliminated from Europe for a thousand years, during the high water mark of Christendom, and picked up on a large scale again during the centuries when organized religion was in retreat. I don't regard capitalism as a good thing and I am highly critical of many aspects of the gay rights movement so to the extent that Christianity opposed them, more power to them. Nor am I a particular fan of the American political and social order. I don't think that the liberal order is _a good thing_ to begin with, so when you point to religion being an illiberal force, I would say in many instances, good for them.

I think the comments on Christianity and the gay rights movement are really telling. You see, what the Christian right does now is rewrite history so that Christiainity really was on the right side of all the things that it blew over the last 2000 years. But if you guys had been around then, you guys would have been on the wrong side with your fellow Christians.

The fact is, the reason why right wing Christianity supports homophobia and massive discrimination against gays is THE SAME reason that it right wing Chrisitianity supported slavery. In both cases, believers looked to the Bible for confirmation of preexisting prejudice.

Free exercise of religion will protect the beliefs of you folks, as well it should. But we will really only advance as a society when our policymakers stop listening to you.

"You see, what the Christian right does now is rewrite history so that Christiainity really was on the right side of all the things that it blew over the last 2000 years." Dilan

One possible translation to this is "You don't agree with MY vision of history so you must be biased and wrong."

Let me explain something to you. I have a degree in history and graduated magna cum laude. This was from a state University so I certainly heard the negative parts of Christian history. I've attended a historian conference and I'm working on my Masters.

If my presentation was biased in one direction it was only as a counterbalance. Your understanding of Christian history, or almost any history, is simplistic and inaccurate. You accentuate the negative and at times see the religion in a monolithic matter. If you listed these things again, but replaced "Christian" with "Muslim" or "Hindu" it would be just as flawed.

And I did not indicate that on gay rights Christianity was somehow on the same side you take. I simply stated that Christianity is not monolithic on this or any issue. I don't understand, or approve of, a Christian religion being 100% supportive of the gay rights movement. To do so defies common-sense, historical norms, natural law, and the Bible. However it has happened. Although in the case of the Anglo-Catholics what they were doing is okay by me because it was just about gays having human dignity and maybe a purpose, not that homosexual behavior is consistent with Christianity. I think many on the Christian Right also do not hate gays, but believe they are meant for a different kind of life than what the gay-movement says. A life of friendships, service to others, empathy for the congenitally different, and celibacy. Which in our sex-crazed world equates somehow to loneliness and self-hatred.

Thomas R writes: "I think many on the Christian Right also do not hate gays, but believe they are meant for a different kind of life than what the gay-movement says. A life of friendships, service to others, empathy for the congenitally different, and celibacy."

Thanks for once again illustrating that when most Christians refer to their love for others what they really mean is that they love to tell others what to do.

If anyone suggested to you that you should live a life of celibacy due to an accident of birth I hope you'd have the stones to tell them to fuck off. But maybe you're just the submissive type.

And I guess you have to depend on gays to have empathy for those who are different because you seem to have none yourself. I pity your difference in that respect - it seems like a major disability.

"Thanks for once again illustrating that when most Christians refer to their love for others what they really mean is that they love to tell others what to do."

All society involves some level of telling people what to do. Even "anarchy" really means "no rulers" not "no rules."

That being said it's more like a request or suggestion not a demand. A gay person does not have to be a Christian if they do not wish. If they choose to be so then they are choosing to follow certain rules. That's true even in the Christian denominations that, somehow, justify the idea gays do not need to be celibate. They still tend to believe, so far as I know, that gays should follow the standards they set for straights.

Likewise the state does so as well. In much of history it was not unheard of for a thirty year old man to marry a fifteen year old girl. If a 30 year old man has sex with a fifteen year old boy this is simply going to be statutory rape even if he claims some church married them.

"If anyone suggested to you that you should live a life of celibacy due to an accident of birth I hope you'd have the stones to tell them to fuck off."

Well I am a celibate. Still people have suggested that as a person with osteogenesis imperfecta I must not reproduce. Sure that offended me and I even argued against it. A gay person would have every right to argue against Christianity on this point.

Still there are several factors involve. If my OI was so severe that any sex would do me physical damage people would have every right to advise me against it. And in fact there are some sexual positions I'm not supposed to try because of the risk of breaking bones. Likewise if a regular bodied person had sexual desires that endangered their life or health people would have every right to ask for the person to restrain those.

Homosexuality isn't simply a quirk of connective tissue, bone tissue, eye color, or what have you. It involves sexual behavior itself. The position of many religions is that these behaviors are improper or need to be restrained. If you do not agree with those religions just don't be in them. Just like if you don't think heterosexuality is wrong don't be a Shaker, etc. Granted there is a difference in that people are raised Christian, but at some point you have to move beyond your raising and realize what you are or want for your own life.

That being said it's more like a request or suggestion not a demand. A gay person does not have to be a Christian if they do not wish. If they choose to be so then they are choosing to follow certain rules. That's true even in the Christian denominations that, somehow, justify the idea gays do not need to be celibate. They still tend to believe, so far as I know, that gays should follow the standards they set for straights.

Thomas, I completely support your right to believe (totally wrongly, but you have the right to be wrong) that God disapproves of same-sex relations. I further support your right to express that position, and the right of conservative Christians to try to persuade gays to change their lives or become celibate.

But that's not what the gay rights debate is about. Rather, it is about THE STATE. That's right, the religious right still favors JAILING gays and lesbians, as well as allowing employers to fire them, allowing landlords to refuse to rent to them, precluding them from adopting children, denying them the right to immigrate into the country, charging them higher tax rates, reducing the sentences of those who assault them, and about 1000 other things.

So you can't pose as simply someone who is tolerant of gays but don't endorse their lifestyle. People who truly believe that would JOIN the gay rights movement and SUPPORT full and equal rights in all aspects of the law for gays and lesbians.

The entire ball game here is that you and your fellow conservative Christians are on the wrong side of history, supporting government sanctioned immoral bigotry, just as your cohorts did so many times in the past. You can babble on about "natural law" all you want, but the fact of the matter is you support using the LEGAL SYSTEM to pound gays and lesbians into submitting to your Imaginary Friend. It's sickening, it's immoral (unlike the abortions that you guys condemn), and in a hundred years, you guys will be looked on with the same disdain with which we now view those who justified slavery with the Bible.

Well actually I'm not real comfortable with being seen as Religious Right. I'll embrace it to an extent, but only because I'm moderately Right and I'm religious. In discussion with you I defend them because I don't think there as bad as you think. I certainly think they're less bad than the Secular Right. The Secular-Right care far less about the environment, the poor, and human rights. They're mostly about military might, America uber Alles, and greed so far as I can tell. At least the Christian Right have some claims to something higher, more universal, and humane. (In the 1990s the Christian Right was doing more to help Sudanese refugees than most anyone in the US, including most of the Left)

On the whole though I consider myself a conservative Catholic rather than "Religious Right" as they have an Evangelical component I'm uncomfortable with. Anyway I certainly don't support jailing homosexuals, putting a special tax on them, or banning their publications. At one time I didn't even care if the state allowed Same-Sex Marriage as civil marriage is an almost meaningless contract to me. However in retrospect I think it's problematic to say that three different arrangements are all the same. The union of two men is different from the union of two women because men are different from women. Both are different from a mixed union. Although complicated I'd think we'd need three separate forms of civil unions. The opposite-sex form, and possibly the lesbian form, could still be called "matrimony" as the term refers to motherhood. The male-male form would need some new term, but I don't know what that is of yet.

As for landlords and companies I think they have a right to refuse based on any behavior so long as they are in the private sphere. If an Adventist charity doesn't want to hire me because I'm Catholic that's their right. If they do so they should get no government support whatsoever, but if they're prepared to accept that that's fine by me.

Anyway you don't know where history will go. At one time the progressive thing was to encourage the congenitally disabled to be sterilized and those Catholics who objected on religious grounds were simply irrational obstacles. They were even deemed cruel for allowing "life unfit for life." In the 1800s there was a group of "Uranian poets" who believed in the acceptance of pederasty. The future was also going to be for the men who boldly eviscerated dogs in their basement, for science!, whether they had a license or not. Yeah comparing these things to homosexuality is silly. However it's no more silly than comparing the treatment of homosexuals to that of slaves.

Dilan Esper (writes)

“But that's not what the gay rights debate is about. Rather, it is about THE STATE. That's right, the religious right still favors JAILING gays and lesbians,”

Yes – certainly: this is often about how the State approaches the issue of homosexuality. It is obscene to pretend that the “religious right” now or even favored “JAILING gays and lesbians”.
Pure hyperbole. Even pre-Lawrence the (seldom enforced or prosecuted) sodomy laws were for actions not orientation. Citizens fifth amendment rights protected them against government intrusion like everyone else. There are still multiple adultery & fornication laws on the books but no one claim the “religious right” is for “jailing the immoral people”.

“as well as allowing employers to fire them, allowing landlords to refuse to rent to them,”

That would be unjust discrimination. You are talking about special civil rights protections for gays. The “religious right” does not condone or encourage such treatment. You can be fired or denied housing for being heterosexual, to tall, to short, or because they don’t like the cut of your jib. To not extend special protections to this minority is not to condone unjust discrimination.


“precluding them from adopting children, denying them the right to immigrate into the country”

It’s more than permissible and just for the State and private adoption agencies to place children exclusively in man/woman married households. There is no “right to adoption” and people are precluded from it for a wide variety of reasons, not just homosexual couples. The determination is based on the “best interests of the child” – Not on the non-existent “rights” of the adoptive parent.

“charging them higher tax rates, reducing the sentences of those who assault them, and about 1000 other things.”

Look how hyperbolic and strained you have to become in your diatribe. Homosexuals are not charges “higher tax rates” anymore so than single people are charged “higher tax rates.” The government affords married couples certain benefits in order to encourage natural married stable family formation. “Reducing the sentences of those who assault them” – this is pure nonsense, battery is battery & if X or Y judge excuses such actions than he has failed the law and it citizens. Your really have to stretch things try and make your point.

“So you can't pose as simply someone who is tolerant of gays but don't endorse their lifestyle. People who truly believe that would JOIN the gay rights movement and SUPPORT full and equal rights in all aspects of the law for gays and lesbians.”

“full and equal rights in all aspects of the law for gays and lesbians.” As you have defined it. I can point numerous links to how others rights are abdicated when gay groups use special civil rights protections as a legal battering ram against those who disagree.

Gays have the exact same rights at present as any citizen. You seem to have confused the word tolerance for capitulation. This spells trouble for the day when calling for actual tolerance comes.

“The entire ball game here is that you and your fellow conservative Christians are on the wrong side of history, supporting government sanctioned immoral bigotry, just as your cohorts did so many times in the past. You can babble on about "natural law" all you want, but the fact of the matter is you support using the LEGAL SYSTEM to pound gays and lesbians into submitting to your Imaginary Friend. It's sickening, it's immoral (unlike the abortions that you guys condemn), and in a hundred years, you guys will be looked on with the same disdain with which we now view those who justified slavery with the Bible.”

This seems to be the reigning fantasy of the secular left. There is a wide birth between making something illegal and actively subsidizing, protecting, aggrandizing it in law.

I hardly think the “religious rights” ranks have grown by leaps & bounds so that supermajorities in States across the country have voted against same-sex “marriage.”

Judges from some of this countries most liberal courts including New York, Maryland, Washington, California & Rhoad Island have ruled strongly against the moral equivalency you have fallen pray to.

The extremist secular fantasy forward the idea that just because something is supported by scripture & religious believers, it should not be supported by civil authorities is a unworkable, anti-intellectual, ill-liberal, and downright ridiculous impulse. Under such thinking laws against theft would be suspect because “thou shalt not steal” is one of the ten commandments.

That would be unjust discrimination. You are talking about special civil rights protections for gays. The “religious right” does not condone or encourage such treatment. You can be fired or denied housing for being heterosexual, to tall, to short, or because they don’t like the cut of your jib. To not extend special protections to this minority is not to condone unjust discrimination.

That's like saying the rich have the same right to sleep under bridges that the poor have, Fitz. In any event, by that same logic, it should be legal to fire blacks or women because of who they are.

It’s more than permissible and just for the State and private adoption agencies to place children exclusively in man/woman married households. There is no “right to adoption” and people are precluded from it for a wide variety of reasons, not just homosexual couples. The determination is based on the “best interests of the child” – Not on the non-existent “rights” of the adoptive parent.

Actually, not. Palmore v. Sidoti correctly rules that best interest determinations can't be based on racial prejudice. The religious right wants to make sure that this will never be extended to gays.

Look how hyperbolic and strained you have to become in your diatribe. Homosexuals are not charges “higher tax rates” anymore so than single people are charged “higher tax rates.”

You could have said the same thing before interracial marriage was banned. "Blacks who want to marry whites aren't charged higher tax rates any more than single people are charged higher tax rates."

“full and equal rights in all aspects of the law for gays and lesbians.” As you have defined it. I can point numerous links to how others rights are abdicated when gay groups use special civil rights protections as a legal battering ram against those who disagree.

Fitz, "special rights" is a LIE. We are talking about gays having the same protections that OTHER MINORITIES WHO FACE DISCRIMINATION HAVE. Do blacks have "special rights"? Women? Pregnant women? Religious minorities? The disabled?

Some Republican spin doctor came up with "special rights", but it has nothing to do with what we are actually talking about.

Simply put, if you don't support EQUAL rights under law for gays and lesbians, including the right not to be discriminated against because of who they are, I don't really care about your convoluted explanations. You support using state power to make gays and lesbians miserable in the same ways that blacks used to be made miserable. And there's no word for that other than hate.

Dilan Esper:

The problem with your (horribly over used) Race example is its power comes from mere analogy. The problem with analogy is it is exactly that: an analogy.

Its weight raises and falls on the strength of the analogy. Courts have been quick to dismiss this characterization of marriage law with racial segregation. The point of anti—miscegenation laws were to keep the races apart. No one would seriously argue that that is the point of marriage law. Quite the opposite, the intention of marriage law is to bring the two sexes together.

Note this quote rebuke of same-sex “marriage” offered by the plurality in Hernandez v. New York, Justice Smith, when confronting the idea that marriage as historically defined was analogous to Loving.

“[T]he traditional definition of marriage is not merely a byproduct of historical injustice. Its history is of a different kind.”


The use of the term kind is telling. Not a matter of degree, mind you. Rather a different of qualitative substance…a difference of kind.

As dismissals of the Loving v Virginia case goes, this is rather mild. However – I like it for precisely that reason. It dismisses casually a analogy that doesn’t hold up precisely because it is not the samekind of things being compared.


As the Washington decision illustrates

“We vigorously reject any attempt to link the discriminatory Anti miscegenation laws in Loving with this State’s DOMA. The Washington Court of Appeals in Singer correctly noted:the Loving and Perez courts [Perez v. Sharp, 32 Cal. 2d 711, 198 P.2d 17 (1948)] did not change the basic definition of marriage as the legal union of one man and one woman; rather, they merely held that the race of the man or woman desiring to enter that relationship could not be considered by the state in granting a marriage license. 11 Wn. App. at 255 n.8. Numerous other courts have all rejected the claim that the decision in Loving somehow challenged state laws reaffirming marriage as the union of one man and one woman.25 Careful review of the historical context of Loving further undermines the dissents’ disturbing attempt to link constitutionally void, racist laws with a historical definition of marriage as between a man and woman. Anti miscegenation laws were anathema to the “color-blind” constitution articulated in Justice John Marshall Harlan’s dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson.26 Anti miscegenation laws infringed upon the union of one man and one woman by injecting racial status as a qualification. Such laws contradicted the fact that a man and a woman of any race have the natural right to marry and have children. This right is protected by the United States and Washington State Constitutions. Racially discriminatory anti miscegenation laws also violate the right to marriage between a man and a woman. Here, in contrast, the State’s DOMA simply confirms the common law understanding of marriage as a union of a man and woman. It is the dissent that would abrogate the common law understanding through judicial fiat.”

The black to gay anology is fundemenatally flawed in its inception.

I don’t think its to much to say that this is more wishful thinking than good analogy.

On that subject it seems to me the proper analogy would not be the civil rights movement but rather the results of Roe v Wade & the abortion controversy.

Certainly the % of popular opinion will require nothing short of a SCOTUS opinion if such a change was to be visited on the entire country.

Any such opinion would be contrary to legal opinion of the majority of State & Federal Judiciaries to hear such cases.

The public sympathy for children being raised by their own natural families (i.e. their own married mothers & fathers as the optimal arrangement for child well being) would seems to indicate that any stigma as great as racism would be a hard label to get to stick.
The homosexual movement affirms that gender is a deeply important human category. Sexual orientation as a concept presumes that gender exists and is an important category for human relationships. It would be odd to presume that gender is all important to adult romantic relationships, yet retains no significance beyond that. All evidence historical & scientific points to children requiring intact natural families..

You should read the following quote carefully and ponder just exactly what’s at stake if we were to take your flawed, convenient & self aggrandizing analogy at face value.

"Marriage is neither a conservative nor a liberal issue; it is a universal human institution, guaranteeing children fathers, and pointing men and women toward a special kind of socially as well as personally fruitful sexual relationship. Gay marriage is the final step down a long road America has already traveled toward deinstitutionalizing, denuding and privatizing marriage. It would set in legal stone some of the most destructive ideas of the sexual revolution: There are no differences between men and women that matter, marriage has nothing to do with procreation, children do not really need mothers and fathers, the diverse family forms adults choose are all equally good for children. What happens in my heart is that I know the difference. Don't confuse my people, who have been the victims of deliberate family destruction, by giving them another definition of marriage."

Walter Fauntroy-Former DC Delegate to CongressFounding member of the Congressional Black CaucusCoordinator for Martin Luther King, Jr.'s march on DC

NOTE "there's no word for" [the above quotes from the New York Supreme Court, Washington State Supreme Court Myself & the distinguished Reverand] "other than hate."