Russell Arben Fox ponders, Steve Waldman analyzes, Rod Dreher reacts.
Update: And Alan Jacobs weighs in as well.
« Romney Drops Out | Main | Going To CPAC » Should Mormons Hate Huckabee?07 Feb 2008 07:20 pm Comments (26)
Oh, come on, Robert. Hickabee ran as the Avenging Christian vs. the Mormon Menace in Iowa, as clear as can be. There was no real doubt about what he was doing. 
The thing than none of these thoughtful posts contemplates, is that Huck the Political Whore, while a fraud, is genuinely anti-Mormon. That a candidate for POTUS would use his bigotry to advance himself is disgusting in its own right, and a threat to the civil rights of those he attacks. It's not just Mitt, it is the whole Mormon race ( and yes I use that term advisedly) that he slanders. I'm pretty sure that Jews, African Americans, Latinos, and every other group so attacked through history understands exactly the implications of that.
OK, I'm Mormon and I'm pretty pissed at Huckabee. I'd tell him what he can go do with himself, but Mormons aren't supposed to use profanity (bummer). I'm a firm believer in my religion. But I've also been dialogue-ing with Evangelicals, disgruntled ex-Mormons, and hostile secularists about the issues surrounding Mormonism for around two years now online. It's given a lot of insight as to how we are perceived by outsiders. Here's my take on how Mormons are often seen by Evangelicals: Sure we're heretics, we're unbiblical, we're misguided, and we're all going to hell. Pretty par for the course. Southern Baptists often say the same thing about Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc. But here's the real thing about those darn Mormons... they're SNEAKY! They'll lie about their beliefs to make themselves look better. They won't tell you about their deep dark secrets. Instead, they try to throw you off with their wholesome families and nice haircuts. But it's all an act, see... Really those nice, earnest young missionaries are just a front to lure you in! The Mormon focus on family values is how they get you into their creepy cult! Then they brainwash you and take you down to their dark rituals in the temples where they probably worship golden idols, hold mass orgies, and make you lose Jesus! And worst of all, they make you wear funny underwear! When will the madness end, I ask you? That's standard party line for just about any Evangelical counter-cult ministry worth its salt. MORMONS ARE SNEAKY AND DISHONEST. Don't trust em! It's not hard to see how Romney played right into this prejudice. Poor sap didn't even see it coming I'd imagine. But let's be clear. There is no way to distinguish the extent to which Evangelicals disliked Romney for his religion, or for his phoney-ness. Because, in practical terms, they are pretty-much the same thing. The Evangelical prejudice against Mormons IS that we are a bunch of fake people. One accompanies the other.
Seth R writes: "That's standard party line for just about any Evangelical counter-cult ministry worth its salt. MORMONS ARE SNEAKY AND DISHONEST. Don't trust em! It's not hard to see how Romney played right into this prejudice. Poor sap didn't even see it coming I'd imagine. But let's be clear. There is no way to distinguish the extent to which Evangelicals disliked Romney for his religion, or for his phoney-ness. Because, in practical terms, they are pretty-much the same thing. The Evangelical prejudice against Mormons IS that we are a bunch of fake people. One accompanies the other." I suspect all of that "gosh" and "gee whiz" crap doesn't help.
Indeed it does not, even if he meant it sincerely.
Seth R replies (even though he keeps saying no one should reply to me): "Indeed it does not, even if he meant it sincerely." If Mitt Romney were kicked in the nuts out of the blue, would he really say "golly willickers"? I'm guessing not, but damn would I love to see it played out on live TV... as long as he wasn't expecting it. In any event, Seth, I do enjoy your posts because of your ability to see the other side, and while I'm glad Mitt won't be our next president I'm not so happy about the way he was knocked out. I wanted him to be knocked out because he was a warmongering gay-bashing theocrat, not because his sect was smaller than Hickabee's.
This is nonsense. Evangelicals voted for one of their own. Just like Mormons voted for one of their own. What's wrong with that? Given the option, why wouldn't you naturally be attracted to the candidate who, all other things being equal, does not believe your faith is founded on lies? This goes for people of all persuasions. I actually liked Romney as a person and did not for a second question his honesty or integrity. But given the choice between Huckabee and a man who believes apostolic Christianity is a "great apostasy", I am going to vote for the Christian over the Mormon every time. That's human nature! Best of luck to Romney. His speech yesterday was terrific.
. That a candidate for POTUS would use his bigotry to advance himself is disgusting in its own right, and a threat to the civil rights of those he attacks. This from the party that gave us "Willie Horton", Welfare Queens Driving Cadillacs, Harold Call me, now that's hilarious...
Brian, I have a few Evangelical acquaintances who are actually quite reasonable and friendly about my religion and our honest differences. That's not who I was talking about. Check out a few Evangelical counter-cult ministries sometime. I think you'll find that my (slightly caricatured) summary is very much a part of their message. Moe, I don't mind responding to you when it's to the point. I just don't care to play along when it's obvious you're deliberately goading people (and some of the responses irritate me just about as much). And yes, that would be pretty funny to watch.
In any event, Seth, I do enjoy your posts because of your ability to see the other side, and while I'm glad Mitt won't be our next president I'm not so happy about the way he was knocked out. I wanted him to be knocked out because he was a warmongering gay-bashing theocrat, not because his sect was smaller than Hickabee's. I'm with Moe here. I don't care for Mitt, but I can't stand anti-Mormon prejudice.
Hate an ordained pastor of the Great and Abominable Church, the Great Whore of All the Earth, whose professors are all corrupt? Why on earth (or Kolob) would the Mormon race (well, post-1978, races, plural) do that?
Dude, everybody should hate Mike Huckabee.
Rod Bush asks: "Hate an ordained pastor of the Great and Abominable Church, the Great Whore of All the Earth, whose professors are all corrupt? Why on earth (or Kolob) would the Mormon race (well, post-1978, races, plural) do that?" I don't know. But why do most Repiglican presidential candidates feel compelled to go kiss ass at Bob Jones University, where the leaders consider the Catholic Church to be the Whore of Babylon?
"Rod Bush"... Ouch! MoeLJ, please, please, don't make any more jokes about my name. You're really wounding me here, man.[*] It hurts. If you don't stop, I'll have to switch to San Fran Democrat-ism just to end the pain. [*] Or maybe woman - I realise a masculine pseudonym doesn't mean the writer is male. I predict that within 48 hours, there will be at least a dozen pieces out by conservative Catholic bloggers explaining, more in sorrow than anger, that unfortunately you can't really expect staunch evangelical Protestants to elect a President whom they believe belongs to a supposedly Christian church that teaches gross heresy. Much like the way First Things alternates calls for the government to stop coddling Muslims - "yep, true, many are peaceable, but a not-insignificant proportion are prepared to use violence in the interests of hostile foreign powers, and we can't ignore that threat" - with gripes about the way Catholics were treated in England 400 years ago.
Moe, BTW, to save you work, a "blain" means a sore or lesion (as in chilblain). I beg of you, please, don't call me a sore or lesion. Please.
Rod Blaine asks: "Moe, BTW, to save you work, a "blain" means a sore or lesion (as in chilblain). I beg of you, please, don't call me a sore or lesion." In the insult department it's hard to beat calling you "Rod Blaine," which sounds like a porn name, a really bad magician, or a hair "stylist" with a string of bad marriages and a coke habit. Have you ever met Dirk Diggler?
Mitt Romney is delusional; it is a sad thing to watch. He dreamed of greatness and was hustled by professional consultants who took his money with no regrets. As governor of Massachusetts he was restrained by a loyal staff and he did well. He became sure he could fool the religious right and hustle the mainstream GOP. He assumed it was all a game anyway. His speeches were loaded with cliché’s and empty words that he assumed would work. Even a moron can sense fraud and even a hard core ideologue can realize a scam. The tragedy here is 35 million dollars wasted and embarrassment for his family.
With all due respect, what on earth is "anti-Mormon prejudice"? It is an annoying phrase that makes those who use it sound pathetic. For instance, the Catholic and Orthodox churches are anti-Mormon in the sense that they contend not only are Mormon teachings fraudulent, but that they are flatly irrational (specifically, with respect to Mormon polytheism). So the main gripe with the LDS is that they teach things no rational person should assent to. Whatever else this is, it is not prejudice.
Mormons: "They are less divorced and less mentally ill than any other group" - This has not been my experience, anecdotally, at any rate. The most messed up, suicidal, clinically depressed gay men I have ever met have been ex-Mormons. Even the Catholic Church and Evangelicals do not do the mental torture authoritarian mind control stuff on people that the Mormons do. As far as I can see practicing Mormons are functional, but I'm not sure that the whole cult isn't mentally ill. I've met people that have told me that Mormon's were still giving electroshock treatments to gay people even a few years ago to "treat" them. This is just torture as far as I'm concerned. "Less mentally ill" my ass.
I think the consensus is this: there's definitely something fishy about Mormonism, and generally speaking, Mormons don't quack like the other ducks, but we can live with a Mormon president as long as he seems removed enough from that specific religion yet supportive of those who espouse a faith (as Romney did). Mormonism, even if deemed a cult, is far more tolerable to most people than Scientology, for example-- and only Mormons labor under the delusion that Romney's presidential bid failed because of his religion. He was elected governor of a state that's heavily Catholic, after all.
Hybrid, please elaborate. How exactly do we do our brainwashing? And who exactly is doing this electroshock stuff? Brian G., actually Mormon "polytheism" as you put it, actually is more rational than the trinitarian nonsense traditional Christians have cooked up. The best the trinitarians can come up with for why all that "same-but-different" nonsense about Jesus and the Father doesn't make a lick of rational sense to normal human beings is - well, it's all some sort of "divine mystery." Yeah, you folks are supremely rational alright. Give me a freaking break. MD, we actually seem to get on a lot better with Catholics and Orthodox than Protestants for some reason. Not sure why...
Seth, That's just my point. Mormons are free to think like that. And they are also free to treat Catholics and other Christians in a manner that reflects that position. Doing so would not, in my view, be "bigoted" or "prejudiced." Obviously, the same goes for how other Christians would treat *Mormonism* as a religion. Note that I do not say Mormons as people, which are good folks. But so are lots of Scientologists, so that doesn't decide the case one way or another. Americans are perfectly free to disagree with people whose opinions they find perfectly insane--as I find Mormon teachings and history; and as you find Christian teachings and history. This is not bigotry. This is democracy.
all of the posts above reinforce that which more and more americans know to be true: we secular humanists aren't so bad after all. we don't hate anyone because of their professed beliefs alone. indeed, we invite everyone to believe as they wish, as long as those beliefs don't impose constraints on others. mccain understands this, and both dems do as well.
Hold on there Harvey, Half the time someone is calling me a stupid retard for believing the stuff I believe in, it's some smug secularist. Usually, the case is that we're getting tag-teamed by both evangelical and secular bigots. Usually, the secularists aren't even creative enough to come up with their own material. Instead, they tend to beggar it off Evangelical scream-fests. No hall pass for you.
Seth R writes: "Half the time someone is calling me a stupid retard for believing the stuff I believe in, it's some smug secularist." I think you might consider, Seth, that this country has been running the rapids down the shitter for the past 7 years, and the people building up the currents have been religious conservatives. A lot of secularists have very good reasons to be pissed, and sometimes that leads to collateral damage. But as for this Huckabee/Christian/Mitt/Mormon hullabaloo, it really does seem that secularists have been common among the voices saying the evangelicals were behaving badly. Catholics and members of other religious groups were there, too - but evangelicals? Not so much.
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Huckabee being the lone strong challenger against Romney was the event that shaped this election. Huckabee's stump speech at that point was less about culture war conservative politics and more about contrasting himself with Romney the plutocrat, son of a governor, CEO, villain from Mr. Deeds. The Mormons may hate Huckabee's supporters, and indeed people do judge candidates based on who their supporters are, but they don't have a strong case against Huckabee until South Carolina and even then Romney was not on the inside track to win the nomination.
Posted by Robert | February 7, 2008 11:48 PM