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The Wrong War

18 Feb 2008 01:17 pm

Ryan Lizza does a fine job of sketching out the contours of the debate over the GOP's future - Gingrich versus Norquist, Frum versus Gerson, reformers versus retrenchers, etc. - but his portrait of John McCain doesn't exactly inspire confidence in McCain's vision for how the Republican Party ought to be reinvented:

One day on the Straight Talk, McCain discussed what he was reading. It is safe to say that Gingrich, Norquist, Gerson, and Frum were not on his nightstand; McCain is almost always looking at military histories or political biographies. In the 2000 campaign, he seemed to be reading a lot about Theodore Roosevelt, and he frequently worked T.R. anecdotes into his conversations. These days, he often cites William Manchester, a former marine and a Second World War veteran, who has written biographies of Winston Churchill and General Douglas MacArthur ...

Recently, McCain said, he had read “The Coldest Winter,” David Halberstam’s account of the Korean War and its era. “I strongly recommend it,” he told the reporters. “It’s beautifully done. It’s not just about the war, but it’s a very good description, whether you agree with it or not, of the political climate at that time—the split in the Republican Party between the Taft wing”—Senator Robert Taft, of Ohio—“and the Eisenhower wing, and Harry Truman’s incredible relationship with MacArthur.” He added, “At least half the book is about the political situation in the United States during that period—the isolationism, who lost China, the whole political dynamic. That’s what I think makes it well worth reading.”

It was a telling reference and points to McCain’s transformation between 2000 and 2008—from a Teddy Roosevelt Republican to an Eisenhower Republican. In 2000, McCain railed against corporate power and the influence of lobbyists and money in politics. Today, the only mention of corporations in his stump speech is a demand that the corporate-tax rate be lowered. After 2000, McCain seemed briefly to be considering leaving the Republican Party, just as Roosevelt had. But, once terrorism and the war in Iraq became the preëminent issues, he decided instead to take over the Party, just as Eisenhower and the Republican moderates did when, in 1952, they vanquished the Old Guard isolationists who supported Taft. Instead of battling the corporate wing of his party, McCain has decided that it’s the isolationists—a group that he defines broadly, and which includes the left and the right—who are the real threat.

As someone who thinks that Eisenhower still doesn't get the credit he deserves as the finest twentieth century president whose name doesn't begin with an "R," I don't necessarily mind the idea of McCain attempting an Ike imitation, particularly on foreign policy. But the idea that the way to go about it is to make peace with the Club For Growth and make war on the GOP's "isolationists" seems fanciful at best, dangerous at worst. Especially since it's difficult to know which "isolationists" he has in mind. Immigration opponents? Mitt Romney, for using the word "timetable" with regard to Iraq? Conservative who disliked the immodesty of Bush's Second Inaugural Address - like Peggy Noonan, say? I mean, McCain can't be deluded into thinking that the "Ron Paul Revolution" represented a large-scale resurgence of non-interventionism on the Right, can he?

Apparently so:

One afternoon, McCain talked about his surprise at the resurrection of this element in his party, which has been particularly visible in the candidacy of the libertarian Texas congressman Ron Paul. “We had a debate in Iowa. I mean, it was, like, last summer, one of the first debates we had. It was raining, and I’m standing there in the afternoon, it was a couple of hours before the debate,” McCain said. “And I happen to look out the window. Here’s a group of fifty people in the rain, shouting ‘Ron Paul! Ron Paul!’ ” McCain banged on the table with both fists and chanted as he imitated the Paul enthusiasts. “I thought, Holy shit, what’s going on here? I mean, go to one of these debates. Drive up. Whose signs do you see? I’m very grateful—they’ve been very polite. I recognize them and say thanks for being here. They haven’t disrupted the events. But he has tapped a vein. And it’s a combination of isolationism, the old part of our party, and the conspiracy. You know”—McCain lowered his head and spoke in a mock-confiding voice—“ ‘We have made an important discovery: the headquarters for the organization that’s going to merge three countries into one—Canada, Mexico, and the U.S.—is in Kansas City!’"

How droll. But, um, Senator McCain, you did notice that Ron Paul topped out at about 5-10 percent of the vote, didn't you? And that every other candidate in the race (allowing for certain variations) took roughly the same foreign-policy line as you? Doesn't that at the very least suggest that there might be more pressing battles awaiting a politician looking to reinvent the Republican Party than a crusade against the isolationist menace? Please?

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Comments (63)

As someone who thinks that Eisenhower still doesn't get the credit he deserves as the finest twentieth century president whose name doesn't begin with an "R,"

Well, you're right that he wasn't as good either Roosevelt. But I don't know if he would be third on that list. Top five, probably. Ike was, after all, the Last Honorable Republican.

McCain doesn't strike me as a bigot (or a panderer to bigots) which would make him a different sort from the recent run of Republican presidents. But he's going to bear the cross for the Dumbya Era by receiving a vicious beating in November, so he's not going to be around long enough to "rebuild" anything.

Gotta' love the genuflection at the altar of St. Ronnie!

It truly is morning in America....

McCain is getting into trouble because people are, just now, starting to pay attention to what he's saying. It's all "Hey, wait a minute, John... that doesn't make sense". Well, uh, no, it doesn't.

Umm, I realize you have an agenda, but please get your "facts" straight. Ron Paul is NOT an isolationist:

"Noninterventionism is not isolationism. Nonintervention simply means America does not interfere militarily, financially, or covertly in the internal affairs of other nations. It does not we that we isolate ourselves; on the contrary, our founders advocated open trade, travel, communication, and diplomacy with other nations."

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2006/tst121806.htm

I guess two wars for the next hundred years isn't enough. Now he says "there will be more wars, my friends..." Two-thirds of the country want out of the ones we're in and he wants to attack even more countries? Just what fantasy world does this fool live in that he thinks running on war, war and even more war is a winning platform in November? Can anyone imagine Ike believing that? Reagan? McCain is going to lose badly and then we'll be stuck with huge Democratic majorities and the Mole in the White House. We're freakin' doomed!

Perhaps McKook knows that the election is rigged. As you point out, why else would he be concerned about someone getting "about 5-10 percent of the vote"?

The majority of the people in the US oppose the war mongering espoused by McCain and according to the recent AP poll have enough sense to know that the country will go bankrupt if we continue fighting in the Middle East. McCain will be fighting an uphill battle against his own words and the Dems will use his words to make him look like a fool and he will lose in November.
Unfortunately the GOP is blind to this and their inability to accept it will put a Democrat in the White House. The sad thing is many Republicans will blame Ron Paul for the loss in November.

Well, unfortunately McCain has realized the threat from Ron Paul and his followers. I was hoping they could alter the platform at the convention without McCain noticing...

Ah, the wonderful choices we are left with. Is there any difference between McCain, Hillary and Obama?
Go check out this site for proof...
differencebetweendemocratsandrepublicans.com

Yet another obvious attempt to mischaracterize Ron Paul's non-interventionist position as isolationist. Ron Paul is the only candidate emphasizing trade and diplomacy and traveling over pre-emptive strikes and the use of the military. clearly this is NOT isolationist.

Great Post. We sure are sheep aren't we ? You're correct, sir. Consider that it's the (false) shepherds, who go to the same school, are, ahem, 'educated' to the same standard, then spout the same tired lines, therefore drawing approximately equal support (allowing for inconsequential personal variations like: has great hair, strong CEO business appeal, sounds like the Southern Baptist preacher who I trust on Sundays, etc) and they are, in terms of foundational premise, clones of each other.

All of them, to a man, never assert the truth that the Constitution was written to restrain the power of Government, never the rights of the people.

Enter Dr. Ron Paul - he dares to actually tell the truth - all summer long he captivates millions upon millions of citizens, they gravitate towards him - then the media masters - the ones who run the false shepherds school, aghast at the effect an honest man politician has on awakening the populace, attempt drop him down the memory hole. Too late - now they're clued in & lies won't work on them, uh oh.

But plenty hadn't quite caught on - the confused sheep - many of whom heard just enough truth from the good Doctor to innoculate them to it, go back to sleep, a sleep from which they may not awake, (save a miraculous, improbable divine intervention) until at the slaughter house.

I just had to paint this picture because the support for McCain is, in true macabre fashion, at the same time both huge, and fragile. If certain questionable assumptions remain in place, McCain - who was so far dead & gone in mid-summer he barely made some candidate lists - will likely go on to the GOP nomination. [His fears of a RP resurgance safely allayed by a compliant media blackout against the opposing view]. But what events may intervene to challenge those assumptions, no one can say.

We cannot discount how much the liberal media may be 'angling' this strategy - they know the war in Iraq is wildly unpopular, so they 'push' McCain, suspecting - rightly in my opinion - that he won't be able to sell his 'war in Iraq for the next 100 years' when facing a determined Democrat in full public view. Obama will attempt to paint McCain as a fossilized Warmongering relic, unworthy of the citizens trust - it won't be hard, either.

Ron Paul is the only man with the intellectual clarity, moral captial, solid worldview and proven voting credentials to undercut & deny the Democrats premises -

Despite this, the GOP would rather lose with McCain, than win with Ron Paul. Re-run of 'Bob Dole in 1996 !.

I can just hear the 3rd Parties, itching to gain market share - licking their chops at the GOP's faux paux .....I've spoken to higher ups in the Constitution Party & Libertarian Party & they're ready to draft Dr. Paul. Once his house seat is retained - and the GOP convention is past - he may accept their offer.

We can't truly know what will happen. Who would have guessed the outcome of our first War for Independence, with Britian soundly defeated, when viewed from the perspective of Valley Forge ?

I, for one, am still working as a Precinct Leader for Ron Paul here in Texas...and we'll see what happens. God alone holds the future - we get to discover it day by day....Psalm 2 gives the big picture....have a great day...SA

The former head of the Bin Laden unit seems to think Ron Paul is the ONLY candidate that knows what's going on. How do you address this seemingly HUGE contradiction of perspectives of Dr. Ron Paul? I'll trust the former head of the Bin Laden unit vs. the MSM hacks any day.

Michael Scheuer on Ron Paul and Foreign Policy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZG8ohlZvE

McWarmonger and the rest of the Neocons are done for. The once, SMALL GOVERNMENT GOP is now dead. Long live empire!

From RP's blog...


Astonishing that this was broadcast on Bill O’Reilly’s program, albeit while it was guest-hosted by Michael Smerconish:

Smerconish: “Among all of them [i.e., the candidates], who gets it in your opinion?”

Scheuer: “Only Ron Paul understood what was going on.”

Smerconish: “And he gets portrayed as a crackpot in certain quarters when he speaks this lingo.”

Scheuer: “Not only as a crackpot but as an anti-American and an anti-Semite and all the rest of the vituperation that comes along with just recognizing the reality of the situation. … Mr. Paul was trying to convince the American people of the threat they lived under, and how to alleviate some of it, and instead he was called unpatriotic and other things.”

Who's Ron Paul??

But he has tapped a vein.

Ron Paul has tapped a vein. Ya, that small vein of 2/3s of the nation that wants out of Iraq, does not war with Iran, the +50% that know our economy would be better off if we were out of Iraq. I can not imagine why McCain would worry about such an insignificant group of people.

And it’s a combination of isolationism, the old part of our party, and the conspiracy.

I love how McCain can only degrade the ideas Paul stands with names. Isolationism, I thought it was McCain that wants a border fence? Yes, Ron Paul advocation a removal of all sanctions and restrictions on travel and diplomacy to North Korea, Cuba, Iran, and Columbia is by definition isolationism. Oh my God, someone would want to go back to an old part of the Republican party, would that be like the roots? Oh wait, I forgot, Lincolnism is not an old part of the Republican party either. Why even call himself a neo-Conservative, does not conservative imply that you want to keep the old stuff? Oh, and Ron and the conspiracy nuts. Which conspiracies would McCain be referring to, that WMDs in Iraq were a lie, that we are big economic trouble, that you can not stop inflation with more inflation, that we have many fewer rights than we did before Bush, that the surge is working, or that we are better off than we were 8 years ago?

Ron Paul is only polling at 5-10% in Republican polls because everyone else who ever gave a damn about limited government left the Republican Party a long time ago.

McCain is dead right on isolationism as the proper meme to oppose. Life-style politics and fashion-statement foreign policy won't do in wartime.

We need an Eisenhower, and he's the most reasonable facsimile.

Given that the Titanic-like 20th Century (Anti) American system of massive government programs for both overseas military shenanigans and domestic ponzi-scheme social programs, along with funny money and the blatantly fraudulent Federal Reserve System, are getting closer and closer to running us into the big iceberg of reality, I think it actually shows some degree of awareness on McCain's part to actually realize that REALITY is creeping up.

Ron Paul is the only individual who partook in the 2008 presidential race who has any grasp of the economic foundation that underlies any attempts to mold a political system.

Hillary and Obama are plundering big government socialists, who may or may not bring us home from overseas. Their policies will clearly demolish our already battered economy.

Meanwhile, McCain is a total warmonger who has as much economic sense in his entire brain as Paul has in his left pinky finger. McCain will bomb, bomb, bomb, inflate, inflate, inflate, and continue to rail on "pork barrel" projects while the fundamental warfare/ponzi-scheme state keeps right on trucking towards collapse.

Ron Paul and his supporters have been bashed by much of the "main stream" because the TRUTH hurts. We can't afford the nonsense.

But Ron Paul's people are very passionate and motivated becasue the TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.

Once you know what's going on, the bombast and deception and tomfoolery of the ruling classes no longer has any effect on your thinking. The sheep's wool is no longer over your eyes.

McCain is right to fear the Ron Paul movement. Those who have lived in denial so long usually DO fear the truth when it is put in front of their face.

Regarldess of whether it is McCain, Obama, or Hillary, whichever one of these clowns gets in to office, we will witness a major dislocation in our unsustainable system. America as many have come to arrogantly view it, will cease to be that conception any longer. Humility in the face of the truth will be a major theme of the coming decade.

Watch.

"Ron Paul is NOT an isolationist"

In the way the term is used of free societies yes he is.

The US is a free society and free societies rarely if ever practice true isolationism. Cutting off all contact with the world is difficult unless you can manage some intense level of internal control as well. Like Tokugawa Japan, Hoxha's Albania, Ne Win's Burma, or possibly North Korea. The closest to isolationism in a free-society might be New Zealand in the 1950s or 1960s. (I forget which) Even they weren't really close to it as they were members of international organizations and their economic protectionism wasn't absolute.

By the standards of free societies Ron Paul fits those who were described as "isolationist." The Old Right opposed FDR's Lend-Lease and he opposes any foreign aid to allies. He opposes "entangling alliances" itself. He favors withdrawing from virtually all international organizations. Lastly he's possibly the most anti-immigrant of anyone exempting Tancredo as he believes in ending birthright citizenship. The only area where he may not be free-society-isolationist is on economic protectionism. Although I'm not even sure on that as he seems to have some fondness for tariffs. In the parlance of free societies the term "isolationist" has always been used for such a person. It's not entirely precise, but since true isolationism isn't going to happen here it's the only time it can be used.

Anyway Douthat is in a way correct. Railing against a group of marginalized zealouts is not a good use of time. It only makes them think they were ever important outside the Internet, college campuses, or militia meetings.

I've spoken to higher ups in the Constitution Party & Libertarian Party & they're ready to draft Dr. Paul.

Can someone explain how one individual can be acceptable to both of these parties?

No matter how you define it, the issues are the same. A world dominated by governments is not a free world. People who only see the acts of government officials as counting when deciding whether a country is isolationist or not have a bizarre view of the world, not to mention of freedom. Governments are parasites on societies, sucking the lifeblood out of them via taxation, warfare, welfare and boondoggles. International political organizations only feed powerlust and delusions of political officials and rarely, if ever actually accomplish anything good for people that wouldn't have been better if those people had just been free. Foreign aid mostly aids dictators, keeping them in power. By a reasonable definition that includes the actions of all people, Ron Paul is not an isolationist. He is also in full support of diplomacy. You don't need international political organizations to have diplomacy.

"No matter how you define it, the issues are the same. A world dominated by governments is not a free world. People who only see the acts of government officials as counting when deciding whether a country is isolationist or not have a bizarre view of the world, not to mention of freedom. Governments are parasites on societies, sucking the lifeblood out of them via taxation, warfare, welfare and boondoggles. International political organizations only feed powerlust and delusions of political officials and rarely, if ever actually accomplish anything good for people that wouldn't have been better if those people had just been free. Foreign aid mostly aids dictators, keeping them in power. By a reasonable definition that includes the actions of all people, Ron Paul is not an isolationist. He is also in full support of diplomacy. You don't need international political organizations to have diplomacy."

What a great comment! My compliments to you sir.

My comment, in regards to McCain: ....dear sweet jesus, who in their right mind thinks this lunatic can win against a democrat? Hell, he'd lose to Kucinich! The GOP has truly lost its way if they think someone as breathtakingly obselete and intellectually ugly as John McCain can win in November. He's a horrible little man, unworthy of the honor he attempts to bestow upon himself.

"Frum versus Gerson"

Whoever wins, we lose.

Ron Paul may have "topped out" at 5 to 10% in the primaries, but he WAS the only Republican candidate generating any real enthusiasm. And Ron Paul topped 15% in several of the caucuses -- 25% in Montana, 22% in Washington, 21% in North Dakota, 19% in Maine, 17% in Alaska, and 16% in Minnesota.

Add in the fact that Ron Paul was a top tier candidate in terms of fundraising over the last four months, and in terms of the youth vote, and the "Ron Paul Revolution" looks like it might be tapping into some serious political energy for the future.

I wonder if he started reading up on Eisenhower after the CNN debate, when Ron Paul pointed out that Eisenhower campaigned on ending the war in Korea?

Can someone explain how one individual (Ron Paul) can be acceptable to both of these parties? (Libertarian and Constitution)

I think Ron Paul said it best -- freedom brings people together. Ron Paul respects the Constitution to such an extent that the Constitution Party is willing to overlook the fact that he doesn't back Constitutional amendments against abortion or gay marriage. Ron Paul advocates liberty to such an extent that the libertarian Party is willing to overlook the fact that he is strongly against illegal immigration and 100% pro-life.

"Can someone explain how one individual can be acceptable to both of these parties?"

I'm more curious to know what it takes to become a "higher up" in the constitution party. Show up?

ummm, ummm, ummm! And the democrats have not even started to tear into McCain yet. He is so full of holes already, a landslide victory for the democrats will be an understatement.

However, the GOP deserves this butt-kicking as it has definitely lost its way.

I hope Huckabee can hang in long enough to get us to a brokered convention just so the fur can really fly. This may be the only way to save the republican party.

At a brokered convention, sane minds just may be able to rule the day and get Ron Paul nominated.

If not, the tattered GOP will rise again, but this time it will be led by Ron Paul Republicans. Liberty is in the air and the giant has been awakened. This giant is FREEDOM. We won't go back to sleep.

Every election from now on, slowly but surely, Ron Paul Republicans will start taking offices: Locally, State & National.

America may have to suffer a severe monetary depression and wasted lives on the battlefield before Liberty can be restored, but it will, indeed. We have seen and heard the truth and it will set us free!

Well, for my part, this Ron Paul Republican would rather write in Ron Paul and see Obama win the election than waste a vote on John McCain.

It is literally impossible for any of us to "go back to sleep" after learning the truth about this country; its original principles and how far we have strayed from them.

We will keep fighting until our dying breaths. Be it from old age or execution. Note that the American Revolution was fought by an extremely small segment of the population.

This battle for the Presidency may have been lost, but we haven't given up our cause. This was a trial run. You will not be rid of us. We will continue to wake people up to the truth, one by one. Our numbers will only grow as people become more and more disgusted with the corruption in our system. Our numbers will grow simply with time, because once anyone knows what's going on, they cannot go back to being lied to.

You're going to start seeing full-page ads in the newspaper about the Federal Reserve, the CIA's dirty little secrets, and the abhorrent executive orders passed by "King George II".

We're going to hold parades, litter towns with fliers, post signs on the freeways. We aren't going anywhere. We're going to build like the THX sound. As long as politics is a joke and justice is a memory we're going to keep fighting. We're going to tear down this wall of bulls***, brick by brick until everyone sees what's behind it.

Because we're as mad as hell, and we're not going to take this anymore.

Kevin H.,
I agree. There is no turning back. There is no way I can pull the lever (touch the screen) for any of the other candidates.

The fight is just beginning!

The difference between non-intervention and isolation is like the difference between Switzerland and N. Korea. IT IS HUGE.

Switzerland is friendly and trades with all, but doesn't interfere with other nations.

N. Korea refuses entry or egress from its boundaries and views all others with suspicion or outright aggression.

Now ask yourself which the United States is more and more starting to resemble. You will see we are slowly sliding more towards isolationism and not non-intervention. Dr. Paul rightly explains that the neo-con agenda is much more isolationist than his foreign policy would be. Chew on that for awhile...

"Add in the fact that Ron Paul was a top tier candidate in terms of fundraising over the last four months"

Many young people are more willing to donate money to causes and techie guys are disproprtionately libertarian. It's like how Ayn Rand ends up on top of Internet book polls. This does not mean Objectivism is anywhere near as important as they'd like to believe. It just means they know computers and are very passionate.

On donors by "techies guys" I did NOT mean it in a gender neutral way. Males make up 88.1% of Paul's donations
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/donordemCID.asp?id=N00005906&cycle=2008

Although all Republicans get most of their money from men, Paul is the most disproportionate that way. This is partly because his support is largely a phenomenon of the computer-tech industry, which is disproportionately male. Also he's a Pro-Life Libertarian. Libertarian women I know of are often Pro-Choice, while Pro-Life women tend not to be Libertarians. There's also other reasons.

"and in terms of the youth vote"

I'm not sure he ever won the youth vote in any primary. In any event this is something where young men have a bit of a disconnect. Yes the Internet loves you, you practically own the Internet in fact. In TV most every marketer wants the young male demographic. However when it comes to elections young men aren't as important.

The people who can actually remember Robert Taft don't seem that enthused by this modern version. True Retirees are maybe his biggest contributors, but mostly he does poor among those over 65. For young people his deal might all seem new and exciting, but most older people know better. We have Amendments after the first 10 for a reason and Taft never got the nomination for a reason.

"and the 'Ron Paul Revolution' looks like it might be tapping into some serious political energy for the future."

Numerically speaking his support was never anywhere near Perot's and Perot's movement didn't last too long.

I'm going to try to restrain my feelings on this some as I know this is hard time for his people. You supported a guy who didn't win a single caucus and whose ideas are not going to be supported by the Republican or Democratic candidates. So I can see the urge to not admit that. Admitting it could make you feel foolish or like you threw your money away.

"The difference between non-intervention and isolation is like the difference between Switzerland and N. Korea. IT IS HUGE."

I understand saying that the term "isolationism" should never be used of free societies. No free-society is going to be a hermit-kingdom like North Korea.

That being said Switzerland's foreign policy certainly doesn't fit a Paulology vision. Switzerland is a founding member of EFTA. It has been in the UN for 6 years. The Swiss give more in foreign aid than us. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html Swiss peacekeepers served in Kosovo and Swiss negotiators have worked on the Sri Lankan civil war.

Anyway you're right that Ron Paul is not Kim Jong-il or Ne Win. I didn't mean to imply he was. However in the inexact terminology of free-societies he is an isolationist.

"Now ask yourself which the United States is more and more starting to resemble. You will see we are slowly sliding more towards isolationism and not non-intervention. Dr. Paul rightly explains that the neo-con agenda is much more isolationist than his foreign policy would be. Chew on that for awhile"

I'm sorry for responding to you above. You apparently have a very strong enthusiasm for his ideas and going against them was rude.

Still don't you wonder about the irony in saying the "neocons" are making the US like North Korea, but it's your people who always use honorifics for your leader? He's never just "Ron Paul" or even "Representative Ron Paul." He is almost always "Dr. Paul." If we're going to compare think of leaders that assure an honorific like "Doctor" or "Dear" be suffixed to their name.

The dichotomy between McCain and Paul is an interesting one for this young Republican. The Paul campaign would like one to see it as a clear divide between republic and empire. The McCain campaign would like one to see it as a divide between safety and chaos. The dilemma seems exceedingly deep to me. Are we to be Switzerland or Britain? I feel that the idea that we, the currently preeminent superpower, can simply bring it all back home and not engage other countries in activities beyond economic ventures seems overly simplistic and without any sort of historical precedent. Similarly, the idea of staying as some mandate of Iraq for the next 100+ years is disregards the historical lessons that all other empires show us as well as basic problem of a democratic government providing pressure to withdraw. (although the current Democrats seem to have plenty of time on their hands) At the end, I wish I could take the contrarian, quasi-independent McCain of 2000. World War 2 was our Second Punic War. Whether we like it and/or adknowledge it, the US has both a vested interest and the ability to intervene in the most important areas of the world. I fear Paul is too much of a Cato. I fear McCain is an emperor without the right advisors and generals. If I had to choose, I would side with McCain with the hope of the off-chance that he bucks the current Republican Party cadre and uses his (IMO rather knowledgeable) strategic capabilities to somehow craft a situation wherein we are able to either A) realistically withdraw in a realistic, honorable fashion or B) maintain a reasonable prescense within our interests. The leverage the Republican "base" holds over him and the "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" rhetoric fuels a great degree of skepticism.

Wait, McCain is an Eisenhower Republican? Now there is a term whose definition has become watered-down with time. If he really was one, I would be a lot more sympathetic to McCain these days. I don't remember Eisenhower going "Bomb bomb bomb Moscow."

You also have to love that an offhand remark about Paul makes this thread all about him. It is an interesting anthropological data point about political activism on the internet. If a Benazir Bhutto type (who thought that McGovern was going to win because of all of the campus protests she saw) wandered onto just about any conservative blog for the past year or so, they would probably think Paul was going to coast to the nomination.

Reality Man:I don't remember Eisenhower going "Bomb bomb bomb Moscow."

TR: Well the Beach Boys weren't around in Eisenhower's administration. Besides that Russia could plausibly bomb us in return even at that point.

On Iran I believe Eisenhower presided during the overthrow of Mossadeq. He didn't exactly favor bombing Iran, but did support changing their government when he felt it in US interest. (This is not a defense as I consider the Iranian incident to be kind of a mark in an otherwise good Presidency) Eisenhower I think was maybe more militarily cautious than McCain, but he was very much interventionist and believed in just wars.

Although a comparison made that might be more valid is McCain to Teddy Roosevelt. They both had awkward relations to the Republican Party, favored regulation, and were uncomfortable with mixing religion with state. (Teddy Roosevelt's concern on that was more openly from the religious end. Like he worried putting "In God We Trust" on coins was a form of blasphemy. He was also married twice, but his first wife died) At the same time they were hawkish on military matters, were essentially pro-capitalist, and basically socially conservative. Teddy Roosevelt was maybe more that way as he called Tolstoy a pervert and strongly believed in curbing "indecent literature."

That comparison also falls apart though in that TR favored reducing immigration and that people should learn English or leave.

We should note that Ron Paul's appeal is quite broad, comprised of a lot of independents and new voters, many of whom I am sure are not fully cognizant of Paul's policies. In fact, I think that most of his supporters are fervent believers in one, or maybe two issues that he takes on, and are blinded by his outspokenness on the issues of thier concern. Paul has such an eclectic set of planks that make up his platform, he could never appeal to many more voters than he's already getting. I'm not sure that anyone would want these schizophrenic voters anyway.

Ron Paul is way too 'blame America first' for me to agree with him on anything, or to care about any of his other issues. And who wants a Dr. President, pretending to be an economist, who goes around telling us that our money is worthless? Isn't consumer confidence important? Besides being disruptive to the Republican party, I think Ron Paul is a threat to our nation's economic security.

Oh Boy Anthony Goodson (Above). I disagree with you almost entirely. Most of Ron Pauls supporters look past the cover, research him very deeply. Study the issues and learn why things are the way they are. I am glad to see you are flicking insults at his supporters as well. Very Intellectual.

And Ron Paul has never blamed American's for anything, only flawed American Foreign Policy. Sometimes you have to look in the mirror as ask what mistakes have I made, and what were the implications of those mistakes. America rarely does this, or when they do, they never reverse or try to correct the mistakes. We are to blame for a lot that we are starting to reap today. Economically and Militarily. Please don't attack Ron Paul on Economics, he is highly educated in this field. And has correctly predicted the last few bubble bursts we have seen. He has a very good tract record, and bases decisions on research and history, not on emotions.

Re Mr. Goodsons emotive and vapid tirade.

Mr. Goodson's oblivious rant against Congressman Paul is best exemplified by the last paragraph:

"Ron Paul is way too 'blame America first' for me to agree with him on anything, or to care about any of his other issues. And who wants a Dr. President, pretending to be an economist, who goes around telling us that our money is worthless? Isn't consumer confidence important? Besides being disruptive to the Republican party, I think Ron Paul is a threat to our nation's economic security.


Mr. Goodson evidently isnt able to comprehend the separation of Government and Citizenry...methinks he is too Pavlovianized into groupthinking to grasp Dr. Paul and the message of freedom....and then he mocks the Medical Degree of the Congressman and says how dare the Dr. even contemplate voicing anything about currency or economics..despited being on Congressional Banking Committees for over 2 decades and authored several books on the subject(s).

The Elected????? Mr. Goodson says Congressman Paul is a "threat" to our nations economic security.

I say Mr. Goodson and HIS IDEAS AND HIS ILK IN GOVERNMENT WHO ENACT THEM!! are(and have been for years) a threat to me and my family.....

He sounds ready to go march off to the next 2 Minute Hate and sound off against the enemy...probably louder then Winston or OBrien...

"I think Ron Paul is a threat to our nation's economic security."

That's going overboard. The most obvious reason being that he's just not that important. He didn't win a single state and the only places he did well are caucus states in the Rocky Mountains. At best his supporters are like the character "Maurice Minifield" on Northern Exposure. Patriotic, basically good-hearted, distrusting of government, clueless, and eccentric.

The more obvious thing being people have a right to free speech. Paul has a right to say crazy things without being seen as a threat to his country.

Unfortunately, people like Goodson represent the majority. The majority want a candidate/President that will 'tell' them things. "Yeah, your money is worth something. You don't have to worry about your retirement. The war (what I vehemently deny is a war but rather a nasty occupation) is good." And on and on.

Most people have no interest in figuring this stuff out. They let the media explain things in simplespeak. Then the media drops a 'big' word and the viewer tunes out. The mind then says, "Out of my league. Let the know-it-alls figure it out." That's why most people have no interest in the markets or economy -and probably also why they do comparatively poorly to the few people that do. It's not that any of it is hard to learn. It's just a general lack of motivation to work the brain a little.

That's why guys like Ron won't see the White House. McCain speaks in simplespeak. G.W. did also. Hillary probably does -I don't watch her, as she reminds me too much of Pelosi, who I loathe. Obama does a decent job of speaking in basic. Not only that, Obama does the basic so clearly as to make people think that they are actually smarter for understanding him. It's very subtle. But I've noticed this, in him. However, Ron, like it or not, seems to only speak in terms of depth and forethought. And the majority of people -not that they lack the capability- are not thinking on those levels. So something that is alien or foreign is not going to do well.

I don't really have this belief America is too dumb or undeserving for a President like Ron Paul. But I will say this; We -you and I- do represent the small majority of the country that is thinking at a greater depth than most. By simply going online and pointing our browsers to a political site, rather than Nike or Ethan Allen or MLB, NBA, NFL, or NASCAR, and hashing this stuff out, we put ourselves 'up there'. This is also extended to anyone that picks up a newspaper or magazine (content inferred). Regardless of your political preference, speaking about a candidate, outside of 'He's gonna give me more welfare." Or, "He's gonna kill them 'raqis." is a statement that we are thinking more and more critically. And that is good.

Good luck in your political endeavors.

RP08

Thomas R,

How could Tolstoy be called a pervert under even the broadest definition? Tolstoy believed in total sexual abstinence, even for married people. You can call that position many things, but you can't call it the argument of a pervert.

"How could Tolstoy be called a pervert under even the broadest definition?" Hector

I thought it was an odd thing of Teddy Roosevelt to say as well, but it's widely quoted to him. I can't tell you his reasons as I don't really know them.

About the only thing I can think of is that one of Tolstoy's most famous novels was about adultery and he was linked to the Doukhobors. The Doukhobors were fairly conventional in married life, but they did practice nudism as social protest and a radical element of them got famous for burning their own houses as protest. However Tolstoy was not a Doukhobor himself, he just aided or supported their fleeing Russian oppression.

However advocating celibacy was seen as perverse by many American Christians. It was believed that advocating celibacy discouraged marriage and therefore ultimately encouraged promiscuity. Also he called him a "moral pervert" and not just a sexual one. Tolstoy was excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church and didn't believe in the divinity of Christ. (At least not in the standard sense, I think he believed all people were "children of God.") He was also pacifist and Teddy Roosevelt considered pacifism immoral.

This is mostly guesswork. I didn't look too deeply into why Teddy Roosevelt disliked Tolstoy.

Yeah, I guess I might've been a little too strong in my language regarding Rep. Paul's effect on US economic security. Perhaps I was a little bit over-the-top; but this is what happens in any discussion of Ron Paul. Love him or hate him, he defintitely inspires the reactionary and the outlandish.

I do stand by my assertion that most of his voters are schizophrenic. Not in the sense of psychotic, but every RP supporter that I know loves him because he addresses issues key to their concerns (our current wars abroad, and our domestic wars, the War on Drugs, and other excesses and abuses of gov't), but they don't necessarily understand all of his platform. And who could? Most of his campaign is Constitutional, monetary, and libertarian theory--most of which is greatly at odds with the current state of U.S. law. I know supporters of his who know nothing about monetary policy or Constitutional theory, but who rave about RP's stances regarding the abolition of most gov't agencies and returning to the use of gold and silver for backing the dollar.

Many of his supporters feel that it is unfair that he is being ignored by the mainstream media, and that his message is being suppressed. But in fact, this has only helped Ron Paul; limited coverage of his campaign has forced him to run an 'underground' campaign, thus giving greater legitimacy to his 'outsider' status, setting him up as the David to the 'big government' Goliath.

My main point, which seems to have been lost on most of those who've replied to my original post, is that Rep. Paul is not taking away voters who should have gone for McCain. RP's voters come from a vast cross-section of America, and are not splintered from the Republican base. The fact that Paul is bringing voters to the polls who might've not voted otherwise, I think is a good thing.

BTW, I am not the MP Goodson, I am an American.

Michael, I'm trying to be more tolerant but the belief that Paul is just too deep and that no one argues rationally against him really starts to grow tiresome.

In the period when the US still had a gold standard while not having an income tax the economy was often unstable. The US went through several "Panics" in this era. The wealthiest Americans also had a political power unlike anything Gates or Buffett manage. The Austrian school itself is a heterodox economic theory that is, so far as I know, completely untested on a large-scale economy.

The level of non-involvement Paul advocates would have required a massive withdrawal from the world. I don't think it would be overstating things to say it'd be the most massive withdrawal in modern history. To think this could be done without major reprecussions is naive and without historical foundation. Leaving international organizations we helped found would have a major effect on our relations with allies. To end aid on malaria or AIDS in Africa would mark us as even more callous and insular than already believed. Possibly the private sector in the US could make up some of the difference, but the PR benefit for the US as a government would collapse.

Paul in many ways represents an era that died before he was born. If people aren't thinking about his ideas deeply enough it's because there's no need to. It's like trying to deeply understand why we people longer believe in grandfather clauses, Lamarckianism, or the wonders of asbestos. Those things are historically interesting to understand, but most people aren't going to be that interested in studying when/why discredited things got discredited.

I find it interesting that the phrase found in (dare I say) every religion, accepted and reiterated by philosophers and common folk alike throughout recorded history is some version of:

"Treat others the way you would want to be treated."

Yet, here we have Dr. Paul offering this tried and true wisdom only to be ridiculed as an isolationist, a kook, a crackpot or heaven forbid a conspiracy theorist. He is the only person telling the sour truth.
It is universal and constant that most arguments are a matter of misunderstanding and here we have a politician that dares ask the question, "What would we do if China were doing this to us?" Well, the media pundits will have none of that. It might get the people thinking.
Ron Paul is not an isolationist, cook, tin foil hat wearer or any of the other derogatory names often pinned on him by the pundits. These are called ad homonym attacks. Fancy for “name calling” and they are emotional. For better or for worse we are much more influenced by emotion than logic. So, these attacks are often brought out, and quite effectively so, to sway public opinion (aka spin) when the logical argument is not available as defense.
Dr. Paul is, in fact, the only candidate actually looking in the mirror and bravely telling the truth, “Yes, we’re fat.” If if was your child you would commend them for telling the truth when it is most difficult. But ours is a sour truth so it’s easily rejected. Especially when the media offer such delectable lies. Sadly, until we realize (what we already know) we are powerless to fix our problems.

We’ve learned as individuals to do unto others as we would have them do unto us, so why do we let the media confuse us into thinking that is anti-social or kooky to apply this to our neighbors?

Ron Paul or no Ron Paul we are heading for trying times. I would rather face them head on and lessen the blow than delay the inevitable and make things worse. Again with the logic; what am I a kook?

Sam

McCain doesn't strike me as a bigot (or a panderer to bigots) which would make him a different sort from the recent run of Republican presidents. -MLJ

So when he bombs the Hell out of the Muslims, at least he'll do it with a pure heart.

Re: You don't have to worry about your retirement.

That's certainly not a GOP line! They have trademarked fearmongering on Social Security.

"Treat others the way you would want to be treated."

If I was living in a starving land where I could die of malaria I would want help. As a disabled man I want to be as independent as possible, but I do need help sometimes. "Not spelled out in the Constitution" or "Not in my strategic interest" does not fit the Golden Rule to me. You maybe going by a different form of it.

"Not spelled out in the Constitution" or "Not in my strategic interest" does not fit the Golden Rule to me. You maybe going by a different form of it.

I abide by the golden rule in the choices I make as an individual. The government is not an individual and is bound by the rule of law (ie, the Constitution.)

That's beside the point. "Sam" was implying Paul fit the ideal more, which he doesn't. Quite the opposite in fact.

Thomas R:

I was addressing your comment, particularly the examples you gave on helping the less fortunate. I would argue that the more compassionate position would be to help those people directly via charity, not indirectly via forced wealth distribution (ie a personal decision vs a government one).

Regarding Ron Paul, I don't know him personally so I can't comment on any of his altruistic activities (although if you believe his Wikipedia article, he has worked in a Church hospital for low pay, serviced poor patients for free, and has offered to pay for Congressional medals of honour with his own money.)

Politically, I believe Sam was suggesting that Paul's foreign policy follows the Golden Rule. Basically, if you treat other countries violently (through no-fly zones, invasion, CIA-funded coups, placing bases in/near their land, etc) they will respond violently. The CIA calls this 'blowback' and Paul has used that term explicitly in interviews.
(Apologies to Sam if I misinterpreted what you meant.)

I messed up that response a bit anyway. I was meaning his policies not him. He sounds like a fairly okay guy in his personal life.

I think some of what you're saying fits with the vision of him as an almost Left-leaning anti-war candidate, but for the most part I don't think his views actually fit that. His stance on foreign coups is admirable, but rarely does he indicate this is based in some kind of humanitarianism. It's based in his belief, stated pretty much openly, that foreign concerns are none of our business except for chit-chat and trade. He's not really advocating the US be like Switzerland.

Paul's vision of America is more like having the town's richest man be friendly, but uninvolved, to all his neighbors. The house next door became a crackhouse? Just build a better fence. You know for certain that the guy down the street beats his kids to a pulp? Hope for the best there. Granted Bush's approach is like mowing down the abusive Dad with an SKS and then saying "Hasta La Vista, Baby", but I think there's bound to be a happy medium between doing too much and doing nothing.

I can't speak for his motives, but it would be unfair to assume that they are poorly intended. From a pragmatic perspective it wouldn't matter whether they were anyway. Intervention into the internal affairs of other sovereign nations (either unilaterally or through NATO/UN etc.), even with the best of intentions regularly leads to undesired outcomes. For example, going into Iraq could be argued as a good act ('liberation', etc. - although some would argue there were more nefarious intentions) but it has turned out as a disaster. Placing military bases on Saudi land for peace-keeping purposes arguably led to 9/11 and other Al-Quaeda attacks. Aid given to African nations often ends up in warlord hands. Look at what happened in Afghanistan after the US-backed Mujihadeen ousted the Soviets in the 80's.

The key point here is unintended consequences. The rich-man-not-helping-his-neighbours analogy is unfair in my opinion as that person probably knows a fair bit about the workings of his community and is able to make a more informed decision and act more successfully (not to mention that a person is a morally responsible creature whereas a government is - or should be - a tightly controlled mechanism for using force.) When we interfere with the internal affairs of countries it can turn out much worse due to the increased complexity involved. As Reagan said, "...the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there." In other words the US got the hell out of Lebanon in the 80's because they couldn't help the situation, regardless of how much they wanted to. Paul's stance is certainly pragmatic; but if you look at the outcomes of US foreign intervention over the last hundred years it can certainly be also seen as compassionate.

I don't think Reagan was right there. Besides that he certainly intervened in Guatemala, Grenada, etc. And North Africa for that matter. "Middle Easterners are crazy" was just an excuse to be cowardly or concede ignorance. (I'm not in the "cult of St. Reagan.")

Admittedly what you're saying is logical and consistent, but I think real life is messier than that. If we were in Star Trek non-interference in less-developed societies would pretty much always work fine. In real life what you get is us refusing to even help evacuate refugees from the killing fields of Rwanda. Likewise intervention would "regularly be bad." When in real life intervention was certainly important in the collapse of the Iron Curtain.

Granted some of what you're saying is based in a libertarian view of government which would take a whole other discussion to argue against. I'd have to get into why libertarians are wrong on most everything and that'd take a lot of time.

I'm not in the cult of Reagan either but I believe he was right about that purely because the intervention wasn't working and it was clear. I certainly am completely opposed to the other examples you mentioned. What Reagan definitely did right was the Cold War; I don't believe you can call that intervention but this may be a semantic issue. The end of the Cold War was brought about by non-violent diplomacy. I don't have any problem with that and I doubt Paul would either because it worked. It's intervention of a monetary or violent kind that is objectionable.

Yes, I am certainly a libertarian. I'd be interested to hear what we're wrong about. The libertarians that I know are on the whole educated, rational people. Just because we're in the minority doesn't mean we're wrong.

I don't see how the kind of small government libertarians advocate can work in practice. There is no real historical precedent for it and completely unprecedented systems don't have that great a record.

More specifically it seems likely corporations, or some other force, would fill in the vacuum of power. Now one libertarian I know agreed to that, but said that rule by businesses or even churches is preferrable as they're voluntary. However I'm skeptical it would work that way. The economy even now is essentially oligopolistic. If the corporations agreed to a level of repression of their workers I'm not sure how voluntary the situation would be for a worker. Or what a libertarian state could do about it. Or for that matter what it could do to avoid monopolies that restrict competition. Likewise I don't see how it'd deal with major operations or disasters effectively.

There's other things, but some of them are moralistic. I think the closer a nation gets to libertarianism the more it encourage a kind of Social Darwinism that harms the weak. As I actually am weak I don't find that appealing. Also I don't think it's a system that makes for a healthy society. One of the most laissez-faire economies, one that also has democratic freedoms, is Estonia. Estonians have a growing economy, but they also are crime-ridden and among the most unhappy nations on Earth going by studies.

Although in theory I think libertarianism could work on a very small scale, like maybe Nauru. maybe Australia.

The truly great Presidents are the small men.

I accept that's it's impossible to know precisely what would happen in a completely free market, but it would by definition allow for open entry into the market for competition. Anti-trust laws, corporate welfare, perpetual copyright and patents, government-granted monopoly all distort the market so much that the current situation cannot be used as a measure as to how things would be in a truly free market. For example, a company would not be able to forcibly restrict competition (only a government can do that) - they may reduce prices so much that it drives other competitors out but this benefits consumers. If they collude with other competitors to fix prices then other competition will come in and undercut them. Check out this video for a more detailed explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4gRRk2i-M

In terms of workers, a free market allows for workers to move around and find the job that they want, sign the contracts they want, and join unions if you want. Personal freedom and choice is the key here.

In terms of natural disasters, government responses aren't always perfect - look at FEMA and Hurricane Katrina. I concede that there may be a role for government there but it should at least be localised to the area. Here in Australia we have massive volunteer emergency and fire services that are extremely talented and useful. People will work together to solve a problem if they have to and especially if there's no disincentive created by the presence of a massive federal department that 'looks after' that service.

I don't know much about Estonia but I live in Australia and I hope that we do move towards a libertarian style government! We're one of the most overly governed, overly taxed nations on Earth.

McCain is _exactly the type of war-mongering Senator that Eisenhower warned against in his farewell address against the "military-industrial complex."

According to Paul Johnson's Modern Times,

"Eisenhower's chief fear, in the tense atmosphere engendered by the Cold War, was that the government would fall into the grip of a combination of bellicose senators, over-eager brass-hats and greedy arms-suppliers -- what he termed the 'military-industrial complex.'" [p. 464]

That's a fairly reasonable response Greg. Also that "maybe Australia" was the remains of a sentence I thought I'd erased. I was going to say that libertarianism only seems to exist in a few nations with Australia being one, but then I realized I'm not sure that's right.

However the placement of the remains of it, the "maybe Australia" deal, seems to imply that I think Australia is "very tiny." Which of course I know otherwise.

Great discussion here, guys.

I am thinking that one of the key elements that drive our ultimately counterproductive foreign policy is simple fear.

Fear that we'll be beaten by some other nation, large or small.

This fear is driving our failure to 'self-assess'.

One of you was wise enough to point out that "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" will bless a nation, as it would an individual.

Our national failure to act in this way, while claiming the mantle of a (largely) Christian nation, is rightly seen as hypocracy by many nations around the world.

Our evangelical churches would do well to examine this fact, in a move of humble self-reflection.

As Ron Paul has said, similarly, "The power of a good example is a far more effective way to spread freedom, than the force of arms."

I say that our Constitution, and it's timeless ideals has been abandoned. We usually focus on how government has failed to obey it - true enough.

But remember that in our Constitutional Republic - 'government of the people, by the people, for the people' - WE must hold these ideals dear & sacred, for if we DON'T, it is folly to expect our Representative to !!

In other words, our representatives truly do represent us - but we tend to focus blame on them, as if our own ignorance & apathy of America's founding Principles isn't at all connected to their failures.

I say, one leads to the other.....and I want to be part of the solution, so I've signed on as an instructor / teacher for this course, 'Institute on the Constitution'.

Take a look....www.IOTConline.com

"Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty..."

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