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Denominations and Double Standards

17 Mar 2008 04:55 pm

Here's Matt's take on the Jeremiah Wright controversy:

I'm unsure, in general, of what the standards we're supposed to apply to the political views of politicians' favored clergy. I have no idea what the rabbis at Temple Rodef Shalom (where I've gone to synagogue the past few High Holy Days) or at The Village Temple (where I had my bar mitzvah) think about political issues, but I assume I don't agree with them about everything, and certainly it'd be odd to drag up old statements made by any of the relevant rabbis about this or that and then ask me to either endorse the statement or repudiate the entire congregation.

By the same token, we don't assume that a politician who goes to mass wants to ban birth control nor do we ask Catholics who favored preventive war with Iraq to repudiate the Pope in order to prove their hawk bona fides. In short, we generally assume that a politician's stated political views express his or her position on political topics, and that affiliating with a religious congregation does not constitute an endorsement of everything the leaders of that congregation have ever said.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that I see this as a basically trumped-up issue.

This is slightly more persuasive than Ezra’s take, but it still seems like somewhat strained analysis. Obviously, nobody's going to expect a High Holy Days Jew or a Christmas-and-Easter Christian to account for their clergyman’s political opinion, since he (or she) isn’t their clergyman in any meaningful sense of the word. As for why we don't see Catholic politicians being called upon to ritually denounce the Pope, one might begin with the fact that the Pope rarely makes political statements that fall wildly outside the mainstream of American politics. John Paul II and Benedict XVI's criticisms of abortion and euthanasia and gay marriage are right-wing by American standards, sure - just as some of their comments on economics are left-wing - but for better or worse (and I think better, obviously) they simply aren't considered beyond the pale in the way that Jeremiah Wright's comments about 9/11 and sundry other topics are. Back when Popes did make statements that fell beyond the pale of American discourse (in the Syllabus of Errors era, for instance) Catholics were frequently called upon to clarify their view of the Holy See's position, and while these calls were often laced with bigotry, they also raised valid questions about Catholicism's consonance with American democracy, questions that it was entirely appropriate for Catholics to answer - just as it's appropriate for Barack Obama to answer questions about his church's view of politics today.

More importantly, though, we don't demand that Catholic politicians answer for every Papal address and encyclical because most people understand that a cradle Catholic’s relationship to the magisterium of the Catholic Church tends to be dramatically different from a convert to Protestant Christianity's relationship to the pastor of the only church he's ever attended. A Catholic's relationship to his local priest is perhaps more comparable, though again the weight that Protestantism - particularly in its evangelical strains - places on individual ministry tends to make a Protestant's choice of minister far more revealing than a Catholic's choice of parish. (Traditionally, Catholics weren't even allowed to parish-shop; where you lived determined where you want to mass.) I would also add that in the course of attending mass at dozens of Catholic parishes over the last decade, I can't say I've heard a single homily remotely like the Wright sermons that are stirring up all the controversy. And if I did attend a Catholic church whose pastor went in for, say, the occasional rant about the Freemasons, I wouldn't be surprised if that fact made waves if I ever ran for office.

Here's a thought experiment: Suppose John McCain were a member of Opus Dei. Or to push things a bit further, suppose he attended a schismatic Latin-Mass parish which had, among other things, bestowed an award on a Lefebvrite bishop given to anti-Semitic remarks. Do you think this would earn him media scrutiny, and make a difference in the Presidential race? Do you think it ought to? Your answer, I think, should go a long way toward determining how you think about the case of Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright.

Comments (99)

I think you're being way too generous on this (if you're attempting to judge the public reaction). Wright is making political statements from the pulpit. Obama's not being asked about someone who espouses papal infallibility. Wright is only an issue because both (1) he's talking politics, and (2) said politics are batsh__ crazy. One or the other is a pass: both means people care.

If John McCain were a member of Opus Dei I'd wonder if he regularly flogged himself, and if he'd ever commited murder to protect the church's secrets.

Is this really the benchmark you're asking us to measure against?

Obama is still the best candidate for the president of the USA. His pastors remarks does not dampen his knowledge to lead. this is a gambit to keep the great man out of the white house. Obama will make a great president who will restore jobs back to America. He will stop the flow of job outsourcing to build up other countries(socialism in other countries). He will restore respect to our great nation. He will shorten an evil war that is making profits for American corporations and contractors. This war is about greed,and nothing else. Obama will win the election.

Obama is still the best candidate for the president of the USA. His pastors remarks does not dampen his knowledge to lead. this is a gambit to keep the great man out of the white house. Obama will make a great president who will restore jobs back to America. He will stop the flow of job outsourcing to build up other countries(socialism in other countries). He will restore respect to our great nation. He will shorten an evil war that is making profits for American corporations and contractors. This war is about greed,and nothing else. Obama will win the election.

One more thing...if John McCain were in the same position as Barack Obama I would judge the situation the same way.

I definitely wouldn't jump to the conclusion that McCain was a radical who believes AIDS was invented by the CIA. Why? Because everything else that I know about the man tells me so.

Obama denounced (and rejected!) the remarks as soon as he became aware of them.

There is nothing in his speeches, voting record, or policy proposals that indicates that he is running for president because he wants to help God damn America.

Remember, the reason we care about the government is because it implements policies. Sen. McCain's anti-gay and pro-war Middle East policies are congenial to the vile fantasies of John Hagee, so he sought and received Hagee's endorsement.

Hagee is influential because of his crazy views. As opposed to Wright, who is not influential.

Ross wrote: "Here's a thought experiment: Suppose John McCain were a member of Opus Dei."

OR suppose that John McCain's pastor, whom McCain publicly supports and appears with, expresses hope that Israel will be destroyed in a great conflagration with all Christians ascending to heaven.


OH WAIT. THAT'S TRUE!!!!!!1

Matt writes, "In short, we generally assume that a politician's stated political views express his or her position on political topics."

It's not Wright's political views that I'm interested in. It's the animating principles of his theology, and by extension the animating principles of the church, which are salient here.

Barack's attendance can't be used to imply he agrees with each this-or-that in Wright's sermon, but the fact is that Trinity is a black liberation church founded by a black liberation theology scholar whose professed spiritual forefather is John Cone.

Black liberation theology is explicitly anti-white. Let me say that again. Black liberation theology is explicitly anti-white. Black power and down-with-whitey is the core animating principle of Wright's theology: it's version of social justice is the one where Jesus helps his fellow blacks destroy the white enemy.

So while it would be wrong to impute to Obama the esoteric positions of the faith, can't we make some logical leaps about the fact that Obama, though not raised in this denomination, chose Trinity as the congregation he would attend, contribute and take his young children to?

The fact is, there are three explanations for his choice, and none of them are consonant with Obama's well-cultivated public image: he's either naive, an opportunist, or he's a fellow-traveler. (Note: I don't think it's the last one.)

That, I think, is why this Wright fiasco is such a big deal. Republicans think they might have found Obama's kryptonite, and Democrats worry the Republicans might be right.

If John McCain were a member of Opus Dei I'd wonder if he regularly flogged himself,

Numeraries and supernumeraries of Opus Dei do practice self-mortification, but I believe the instrument which most resembles that to which you are referring is much smaller than a cat-o-nine-tails.


and if he'd ever commited murder to protect the church's secrets.

You should distinguish between Opus Dei and Dan Brown's fantasies of Opus Dei. (Among other things, the whole point of The Work is the promotion of holiness by ordinary people in the course of mundane life. There is no monastic brotherhood attached to it, albino or otherwise).

Here's a thought experiment: Suppose John McCain were a member of Opus Dei

Here's a real-world experiment: Suppose John McCain sought out the support of two pastors who claim God sends terrorists and hurricanes to attack Americans because the US is an immoral country.

I'll assume you moral outrage and denunciation of John McCain was on par with your attempts to smear Obama here.

Right? Yeah, right.

OR suppose that John McCain's pastor, whom McCain publicly supports and appears with, expresses hope that Israel will be destroyed in a great conflagration with all Christians ascending to heaven..OH WAIT. THAT'S TRUE!!!!!!

John McCain is an Anglican. Neither the Church of England nor the Episcopal Church nor any continuing Anglican sects in this country trade in dispensational pre-millennialism. (Even if adherence to apocalyptic theology amounted to a wish that the Jewish people be destroyed, which it does not).

A minor point, the clergyman who presides over an Anglican congregation is referred to as a "rector", or, if the parish is unincorporated, a "vicar".

Art Deco-

We are talking about pastors here, and the obvious reference to my post was to John Hagee, who holds the beliefs that I articulated. What the Church of England says is irrelevant.

Here's a real-world experiment: Suppose John McCain sought out the support of two pastors who claim God sends terrorists and hurricanes to attack Americans because the US is an immoral country.

Jeremiah Wright is not being taken to task for exercises in theodicy or soteriology, but for his normative judgments about the country in which he lives.

Art-- John McCain flip-flopped on the issue of which denomination he belongs to last year-- he now claims to be a Baptist. So, add that to the list with torture, tax cuts, whether we should stay the course, whether Rumsfeld should be fired, etc.

That is peripheral to the issue that RICKM raised, however.

I don't understand what the real concern is here. Is it that Obama, who was raised by his white mother and white grandparents, has some hidden prejudice against whites? Is it that Obama and his wife secretly hate America? I mean, he doesn't wear an American flag on his lapel, so you have to wonder. But seriously, what is the real concern here with respect to Obama?

We are talking about pastors here, and the obvious reference to my post was to John Hagee, who holds the beliefs that I articulated. What the Church of England says is irrelevant.

No, it is not irrelevant. You said his 'pastor' and this discussion has been in reference to a clergyman who has been Barack Obama's pastor for twenty years. John McCain is an Anglican communicant and his 'pastor' is whomever is the Rector of the parish at which he is registered (presumably in Phoenix or D.C.). This fellow Hagee is an officer of a different denomination. His relationship to Mr. McCain is that he has endorsed Mr. McCain. If you think Mr. McCain should repudiate that endorsement, make your case, but Hagee is an adherent of McCain's cause, not the other way around.

Hagee is an adherent of McCain's cause, not the other way around.

Exactly.

John McCain flip-flopped on the issue of which denomination he belongs to last year-- he now claims to be a Baptist. So, add that to the list with torture, tax cuts, whether we should stay the course, whether Rumsfeld should be fired, etc.

It appears from the article that he attends the congregation preferred by his wife. What that has to do with the rest of the items on your list I am not sure.

The way I heard apocalyptic theology taught was that Israel would be the final battleground (Armageddon is a place in Israel) and that the forces of God basically win, with the Earth getting trashed in the process. Everything I've heard from these kind of groups has Jews as allies in the final battle. I'd say that is hardly anti-Semitic. As it deals with the apocalypse, it really isn't applicable to normal life.

Plus, Anglicans are about as far from fundamentalists as you can get while remaining a Christian.

Hagee is influential because of his crazy views.

Influential with whom?

Hagee is influential because of his crazy views.
Influential with whom?

So why did McCain seek his endorsement?

McCain, who stems from an Episcopalian family background, attends his wife’s Arizona Baptist church in which he chose not to be baptized. Hagee is from Texas and Parsley from Ohio.

He has become tangentially involved with Hagee and Parsley due to primary politics. Having been burnt in 2000 by criticizing the religious right, he decided this year to bend somewhat towards them.

McCain is a deeply religious Christian, though he actually abhors the sort of political/religious extremism represented by Hagee, Wright, and Parsley.

From’67-’73, when he was a POW in Vietnam, when not being punished in solitary confinement, he led Christian services, as he had committed the Episcopal liturgy to memory.

Obama on the other hand is involved with an essentially tribal black church that Spengler describes as follows:

Since Christianity taught the concept of divine election to the Gentiles, every recalcitrant tribe in Christendom has rebelled against Christian universalism, insisting that it is the “Chosen People” of God - French, English, Russian, Germans and even (through the peculiar doctrine of Mormonism) certain Americans. America remains the only really Christian country in the industrial world, precisely because it transcends ethnicity. One finds ethnocentricity only in odd corners of its religious life; one of these is African-American.

"I can't say I've heard a single homily remotely like the Wright sermons"

One question: have you ever heard a single Wright sermon? Though I wouldn't concur with such a judgment (and would consider it dangerous to do so about what goes on in anyone else's place of worship), it is any person's right to decide that a certain phrase or a certain formulation is "beyond the pale."

It is patently unfair, however, to judge someone's views or their theology based on the kinds of excerpts that have been playing on the news. You think these statements have no place in any polite discourse? Fine. You tell me they allow you to make an educated judgment about "his church's view of politics"?

I think this subject calls for fewer thought experiments and a whole lot more context and history.

Hagee is an adherent of McCain's cause, not the other way around.

This is what you said when Farrakhan endorsed Obama, right?

Not to mention that Obama didn't seek out Farrakhan's endorsement and Farrakhan has zero influence. And Obama completely rejected Farrakhan's support. On the other hand, McCain actively sought the endorsement of figures like Hagee, and precisely because they are influential figures in the GOP. Funny that -- McCain seeks out the support of "the adherents of his cause."

As to Wright, I've heard that Obama's mailman and his barber said that the US deserved 9/11 because it is an immoral country. They are both white evangelicals, though, so we know that doesn't count.

Laughable.

Art:

Obviously, I was being sarcastic when I said:

If John McCain were a member of Opus Dei I'd wonder if he regularly flogged himself, and if he'd ever commited murder to protect the church's secrets.

Can't you take a joke?

Hagee is an adherent of McCain's cause, not the other way around.
Omaba is not adherent to Wright. Not in his writings, not in speeches, not in his voting record.

Mike in Texas,

I'd like to associate myself with your questions. They are good ones that I'm curious about myself. Does Ross actually believe that Obama is a black separatist who would seek to raise blacks in America to a position of power over whites?

If the answer to that is yes, I would accept that, though I disagree. If the answer to that is no, then what exactly is the point he is trying to make? In any event, I assume that Ross has an actual position on what he believes Obama to be and want, and rather than trying to define a hierarchy of nuttiness among religious denominations and their leaders, I think it is worth his answering what ought to be the only relevant question on this topic.

"McCain is a deeply religious Christian, though he actually abhors the sort of political/religious extremism represented by Hagee, Wright, and Parsley."

Oh, so even though he abhors Hagee's views, he freely associates with Hagee in public venues, and expresses his support for him. So either you're completely wrong, or the man you love is a shell of a person.

JA,

"Black liberation theology is explicitly anti-white."

Wrong, ignorant, and xenophobic. Black liberation theology is a strain of Christian thought that, while deploring racial injustice, is dedicated to nonviolence, personal responsibility, and community empowerment. It is explicitly not anti-anyone because of their race (or any other group affiliation), and embraces anyone who seeks that embrace. To identify a white privileged class as the major perpetuator of social injustice for many classes of people including people of color is a no-brainer to me, but even if you disagree that does not make it anti-white. That makes it a social ideology you don't agree with.

Can't you take a joke?

If they are well-crafted, yes.

This is what you said when Farrakhan endorsed Obama, right?

Age has diminished my memory. When did I bring up Farrakhan?

Wrong, ignorant, and xenophobic. Black liberation theology is a strain of Christian thought...


You mean when James Hal Cone says things like, "the Kingdom of God was a black happening. It was blacks saying, 'No to Whitey'", he's just bein' cute?

Omaba is not adherent to Wright. Not in his writings, not in speeches, not in his voting record.


Then why was he attending that particular congregation week after week?

Art Deco,

No, it's an allegorical restatement of what I just said. And it's punctuated wrong: it should be "'No' to whitey," that is, No, I refuse to accept your view that I should be kept down because of my race. Look, liberation theology identifies the poor of the earth with Jesus and rich oppressors with the Romans. Mapped onto a black liberation framework, that means: Jesus: black, Romans: white. I don't see how you can possibly equate saying "no" (rejecting the dominion of) to being "anti-" (denying the right to equal humanity of). "The Kingdom if God was a black happening"="blessed are the poor."

I have no stake in black liberation theology myself, by the way; it just shocks me that people who would have no trouble hearing the same sentiments voiced in Latinate prose without contemporary social identifications are so terribly threatened by this stuff. Everyone's happy to see a "post-racial" presidential candidate, but at the slightest whisper that that doesn't absolve the US from a 300-year legacy of spavery and discrimination all hell breaks loose.

There is no comparison to taking the support of someone you met with once, or at most, a couple of times, who has traditional American views about Catholicism (I'm sure the Hagees of the world were the ones George Washington had to order to stop burning effigies of the Pope), and your main pastor, mentor and faith guide for twenty years being a lunatic.

Also, if any candidate had so much as a whiff of Opus Dei about him the media and the Left would never stop accusing him of every crime from murder to albinism. If his chief spiritual guide was a celibate, self-mortifying, Monarchist-leaning, Protestant-hating, rabble rouser, I think people would notice.

Obama was raised almost wholly by white people. His upbringing, especially by his grandparents was classically one of middle-class values. To join a black nationalist anti-middle class values church after that is pretty interesting to say the least.

I like Obama better than Hillary but I think the idea that Wright doesn't matter is nuts.

it just shocks me that people who would have no trouble hearing the same sentiments voiced in Latinate prose without contemporary social identifications are so terribly threatened by this stuff.

Actually, I have never heard such sentiments out of the mouth of a clergyman, in latinate prose or any other kind of prose. Your exigesis of Cone seems like a game of intellectual thimblerig.

Art Deco,

You've never heard the Sermon on the Mount? Look, I grew up in a black church, know African American preaching traditions, know Wright's reputation in the black clerical community; I know the way the social gospel is used and the kinds of progressive social action it's directed toward, and if you don't believe that makes me a better reader of it, then so be it. You call it intellectual; I call it educated.

Views of the Catholic Church similar to Hagee's have a pair of establishment berths - The Boston Globe, which employs James Carroll, and The New Republic, which employs Leon Wieseltier. The New Republic's managing partner from 1974 to 2007 was Martin Peretz, who has sposored Wieseltier's career as a literary critic for more than twenty-five years (and appears to hold to some of Wieseltier's views in an attenuated form) and been a good friend and intellectual guru to Albert Gore since 1965.

JJV,

I'm on the Left and I wouldn't particularly if a candidate were a member of Opus Dei, as long as I knew that he personally wasn't planning on suppressing contraception, banning divorce, closing down Anglican churches, calling for a crusade against Cuba and Venezuela, etc. It doesn't bother me if someone is a self-mortifying, celibate monarchist in their personal life. Hell, the person who was key in my own conversion to Christianity is a celibate, monarchist Anglo-Catholic (don't know if he's self-mortificationist). Nothing _wrong_ with self mortification either, it's a valuable and useful discipline common to many religions, and I've thought about taking up some mortificatory practices like fasting before.

Art Deco,
Since he has repeatedly stated he disagrees with Wright on political issues, it obvious that the church is more than one man, and that Wright offers more than just hate.
Have you read Wright's Audacity of hope sermon? If you did you would find Wright to be a little less one dimensional than you think.
I am a atheist, but I can read the bible and find things worth cherishing along with absolute gibberish.
Do you honestly believe Obama is a secret hate monger or do you simply want to bludgeon a political opponent?

You've never heard the Sermon on the Mount?...

Let go of my leg.

Then why was he attending that particular congregation week after week?

Same reason lots of pro-torture, pro-war, pro-choice, birth-control-using Catholics still attend their Catholic churches week after week? I didn't realize parishioners signed on to all of the views of their preachers.

Art Deco,

The NEw Republic is hardly a left wing magazine- Martin Peretz is a full on backer of the neocon-Zionist cause. I don't doubt Peretz is anti-Catholic, although I really think in this case the better term would be anti-Christian.

Here's a thought experiment: Suppose John McCain were a member of Opus Dei. Or to push things a bit further, suppose he attended a schismatic Latin-Mass parish which had, among other things, bestowed an award on a Lefebvrite bishop given to anti-Semitic remarks. Do you think this would earn him media scrutiny, and make a difference in the Presidential race?

You mean aside from losing Hagee's endorsement? No. Are you kidding? This would hardly be a blip on the media's radar. Too arcane, and too much risk of provoking the ire of the Bill Donahue types.

The rest of your argument amounts to saying that Catholicism = normal, Protestantism = less normal, Black Protestantism = abnormal. Which basically is a great way of demonstrating Ezra Klein's point about double standards. Or, to quote a great writer, "what horseshit."

Do you honestly believe Obama is a secret hate monger or do you simply want to bludgeon a political opponent?

I find Mr. Obama's biography contains a number of puzzles. I am not interested in bludgeoning him.

Or, what if, say, John McCain's "spiritual adviser" called Allah a demon spirit and advocated holy war with Islam?

What then indeed?

Or how about the one where McCain supporter Hagee (whose endorsement McCain heartily accepted) said New Orleans brought Katrina upon itself?

Oh, I forgot, advocating wholesale war with Islam and denouncing science in the name of Christian fundamentalism: totally fine. Criticize America, and it's BEYOND THE PALE.

The problem with black theology is that its fight against white supremacy all too often deforms into a fight against the white majority. They are not the same thing.

Oh, and people like Cone genuinely hate the progeny of European culture, including "white" political institutions, "white" behavior and "white" values.

"its fight against white supremacy all too often deforms into a fight against the white majority"

OK, that's a reasonable reservation. But until I have any evidence that TUCC is engaged in that fight rather than being one of the most activist, open, progressive churches I've heard about in recent times, then I'll consider it neither here nor there in this case.

Same reason lots of pro-torture, pro-war, pro-choice, birth-control-using Catholics still attend their Catholic churches week after week? I didn't realize parishioners signed on to all of the views of their preachers.

Mr. Obama did not grow up in that congregation or any other. It was a purely elective adult affiliation. Why he found such an affinity for that congregation is the puzzle.

Catholics attend Mass for the sacraments. Homilies are brief, conversational, and seldom if ever have anything to do with topical political questions.

Your statement also neglects the distinction between teachings which bind and which do not bind the laity. Lay Catholics are bound to give miscellanous pronouncements of the dicasteries of the Holy See a respectful hearing. However, teachings they are compelled to believe and disciplines they are constrained to obey are a subset of the verbiage which comes out of the Holy See and diocesan chanceries. The use of artificial contraception and co-operation with the practice of abortion are mortal sins which require confession and repentance. A dissent from the Secretariat of State's contemporary diplomatic statements does not.

I find Mr. Obama's biography contains a number of puzzles. I am not interested in bludgeoning him.

I'm puzzled that you would find it puzzling.

Tell me how Obama's background is more puzzling than a draft-dodging, silver spoon, Skull and Bones former alcoholic business failure or a draft-dodging, serial-philandering, not-inhaling dude from Arkansas (just to keep it even).

The same points are answered umpteen times and are then re-asserted. How did John Hagee get promoted to the position of "John McCain's spiritual adviser"? Has Mr. McCain ever set foot inside Hagee's church?

The President never dodged the draft. The complaints about his military service are canards which have been answered too many times to be honestly referred to at this point. Some of his business ventures were successful, others not. There is nothing particularly odd about his religious or political affiliations. The United Methodist Church is a perfectly ordinary protestant sect (his wife's from birth, if I am not mistaken). The family have been prominent Republicans for sixty years or more, so no surprise there.

Actually it's Rod Parsley who's the "spiritual guide." Google mccain+parsley+spiritual guide for your answer, Art Deco.

And you are kidding yourself if Bush's time in the TANG wasn't dodging the draft. Oh, how he wished he could have fought the Viet Cong alongside John Kerry and John McCain, but that Texas air needed defending!

It's not about what a minister said. Barack Obama is in trouble if a spotlight is put on his THEOLOGY. See:
http://miraclesdaily.blogspot.com/

If they are well-crafted, yes.

Well, I thought it was funny ;)

"Everything whites think and do has a profound impact on the lives of blacks on a daily basis. We can never escape white power and its cruelty." -- J.H. Cone

Now, Cone goes on to write, "That the oppressed are sinners too is a very important point to make but often hard to hear, especially when it is made by the oppressor. The ever-present violence in poor communities is at least partly due to the sins of the oppressed."

But then he's back to externalizing:

"Whites do not like to think of themselves as evil people or that their place in the world is due to the colonization of Indians, the enslavement of blacks and the exploitation of people of color here and around the world. Whites like to think of themselves as honorable, decent and fair-minded people. They resent being labeled racists. There are whites who say that they do not owe blacks anything because they did not enslave anybody, did not segregate or lynch anybody, and are not white supremacists. They claim to be colorblind and thus treat everybody alike. At an individual level, there is some common sense truth about that observation. But if you benefit from the past and present injustices committed against blacks, you are partly and indirectly accountable as an American citizen and as a member of the institutions that perpetuate racism."

I do believe Cone benefits way more from past injustices than I do; I'm not the one with tenure at a New York seminary school.

Why don't you address Glenn Greenwald's criticism of this entire non-story?

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/17/wright/index.html

Or for that matter, John Cole's?

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=9915

They are far more to-the-point than either Matt's or Ezra's takes.

The funny thing is that in the end Bush's completely insincere, and from the looks of it drunken, endorsement of John McCain will be more of an anchor around the candidate's neck than Wright's 20-year relationship with Barack Obama. Racial politics are exciting and fun and take up a lot of our energy, but in the end the massive repudiation of Bush will swamp all these considerations.

Obama has nothing real to worry about. And as a bonus that will drive Republicans crazy, which will only make it more fun for the massive majority that has learned to hate everything Republican in the past few years.

Bush's mysterious disappearance from the air national guard has never been answered in even the most cursory way. There was a lot of blather about kerning, but not the slightest attempt to figure out where Bush was when he simply skipped out on his military obligation.

First, let's remember that Jesus was a pretty controversial preacher in his time. You don't get crucified for saying things that do not upset people.

In fact, he "damned" the pharisees and leaders of his day repeatedly...only he used a different term. In the King James Bible he often used "Woe unto you"...and make no mistake, he used scathing terms that made people very angry.

People today often forget how radical Jesus was in his time. Many mainline churches have tried to turn Jesus into some milk-toast type of weak person, who offends no one.

Second, who is willing to examine Rev. Wright's full body of preaching and point out its many good uplifting points? Who is willing to examine and credit him for his record of helping the disadvantaged and downtrodden that no one else wanted to help?

Third, it is absurd to hold any candidate accountable for every word said by their pastor. That standard would rule just about everyone out. And I still say that the Republicans have been far worse, because they have allowed their crazy religious pastors to have huge influence within their party and policy. Look at the Terry Schiavo case.

of course this isnt about "denominational privelege;" its about white privelege. this is the clearest instance of how obama's candidacy really does show us how truly racialized we are as a society. first, wright is speaking politics from a forum that has long been the forum for african-american political discourse: the pulpit and religious community. so white society sees this as an egregious abuse b/c white society has not needed to develop a platform outside of the mainstream political discourse of elections, government, etc. second, polling data is interesting -- certainly wrights comments raise concerns across the board, but disproportionately moreso amongst whites...this issue is about the white discovery of an other american narrative that has long existed in the politically banished arena of religion...

Very entertaining to watch the left's rationalizations. And what is most hilarious is that there is no way on earth that the Democrats should lose the general election ... but they will.

Of course, those who follow a church known for its burning of heretics, persistent cases of pedophilia, and leadership by a former Nazi.. well, Ross, I'd say you might have just a wee credibility gap there yourself... But why should that bother you?

"First, let's remember that Jesus was a pretty controversial preacher in his time. You don't get crucified for saying things that do not upset people."

Don't remember him ever comparing people dying to chickens coming home to roost.

"In fact, he "damned" the pharisees and leaders of his day repeatedly...only he used a different term."

Yeah, "damn" does have a rather specific meaning.

"Second, who is willing to examine Rev. Wright's full body of preaching and point out its many good uplifting points?"

And Spitzer's, and Ferraro's, and Falwell's, and Imus's, and....oh wait they didn't get a second chance (or a 100th, if we're talking about Wright's comments). The "full body of preaching" argument could excuse anybody you agree with on the whole for doing anything.

"Third, it is absurd to hold any candidate accountable for every word said by their pastor."

Good thing nobody's doing that. The Obama defenders are being deliberately obtuse. Obama had a 20-year relationship with this guy, a point Greenwald admits and then, well, pretends doesn't exist anymore because he admitted it.

Wright inspired Obama's book. He had, until a few days ago, a prominent testimonial on his campaign site. He's spoken at his events. Obama has spoken glowingly of him at events. He baptized his children. Obama sat in numerous Church services led by this man....and the guy is repeatedly and proudly spreading noxious, demonstrably false lies. It's hard to spin The CIA Invented AIDS into a positive moral tale. It's just untrue, and damning. Same thing with his gleeful, "chickens have come home to roost" line. It's not controversial--it's false. It's not constructive--it's hateful.

There is just no comparison between ANYTHING McCain has done and this incident. The length, duration, closeness, and sheer pan-American hating of the Wright-Obama friendship has no analogue in modern American politics. We don't have to tie it to any of Obama's expressed beliefs; the facts are so stupefying they speak for themselves. One of the closest influences on the President of the United States can't want to damn the whole country to hell. Think of it as a conflict of interest.

I agree with bd: this of course is a double standard, with the black community again getting the short end.

Let's look at the record of all of these fundamentalist white preachers. I am willing to bet that Wright has done more good than people like Falwell and Robertson. And I also say this: Jesus shocked people with some of his words as well.

As to Hector: we'll see who wins in November. My guess is that McCain will have so much baggage trying to carry the Bush legacy that this pastor controversy will be just a blip on the radar screen.

Most people tend to vote pragmatically, and they won't want more recession and war in Iraq, and won't know or care much about the former pastors for either candidate. Remember people thought that Bill Clinton's womanizing would sink him, and it did not. Why? Because people cared more about the economy than Bill's private life and flaws.

Every, you need to learn some recent history. Everyone of the figures you cited - except Spitzer has had a second chance, Ferraro was severely damaged by her involvement with corruption and slumlandlording, Imus seems to have been given a new chance by his employers, while Falwell's record of self-excusing bigotry and theological illiteracy are a tribute to the rightwing's fundamnetalist ignorance of Christianity. As for Spitzer, we'll see what happens, but don't be surprised if he embraces Christianity, weeps, sobs and ultimately revives his career.

There is just no comparison between ANYTHING McCain has done and this incident.

You're right; Obama has stuck by his pastor despite the obvious political difficulty, believing that we as a country are mature enough to understand that his thoughts and those of Wright are very different. McCain, on the other hand, has sucked up to people he once called "agents of intolerance" to curry political favor with the religious right. One has principles, the other doesn't.

That isn't quite the difference you were going for, was it?

Here's the reality: of course Wright went over the line and said some stupid things. But that doesn't negate his may uplifting words or his good works.

How many great Popes have said some stupid things? How about the more extreme statements of some civil rights leaders? Desmond Tutu has said some dumb things, but he's still a great hero.

Then there's the Bible. I can take many quotes out of context and use that to paint the Bible and its theology as something hopelessly untrue or cruel. You know what many Christians say to that: you have to take it all into context.

So for instance, when Jesus said, in Mark 9: 47:
"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell"...
you have to put that into context. Otherwise, one might read that as being pretty severe and cruel.

So if you want to criticize Wright for comments taken out of context, then I guess you'll have to criticize the Bible and Jesus as well.

And by the way, Obama has been entirely deceptive about this issue. Saying he had no idea those particular comments were made, but earlier saying that the sermons were notoriously "rough," then denouncing him, but earlier making him a somewhat large part of his campaign and singing his praises.

And of course, if he's caught on videotape in one of the bad sermons, the game is absolutely up. The cover up might even be worse than the actual controversy.

Ross sayeth "Suppose John McCain were a member of Opus Dei".... well then you would ASK HIM IF HE AGREES WITH THE CRAZIES WHO RUN IT.... and if he said no, you'd move on and ask him how things are going in Iraq.

"You're right; Obama has stuck by his pastor despite the obvious political difficulty, believing that we as a country are mature enough to understand that his thoughts and those of Wright are very different."

Well, but then he denounced the comments. Probably the reason he hasn't done more is that it's hard to suddenly erase a 20-year relationship overnight in front of the entire country.

And again, there's no comparison between what Obama has to distance himself and anything McCain has done over the last 20 years.

As for the people I was talking about...well they were all fired from various posts (and Falwell is demonized by the Left, correctly). And they were called racists or other types of immoral people. If the same is done with Wright, I'm fine with that.

That would indeed be remarkable if Spitzer embraced Christianity, especially so to his rabbi!

I'm still waiting for all of these self righteous types to explain to me Mark 9:47...without resorting to placing it into context or interpreting it any way other than literally. When you can do that, then talk to me about Wright's comments.

Every, you asked about those people getting second chances - and except for Spitzer, for whom it is very early days, they all have. Or did you miss the obvious facts?

Well, but then he denounced the comments.

And so... what? He obviously didn't agree with them before (if one had any idea about who Obama is it is most certainly not some rabid black nationalist) and it was necessary to explain that he didn't agree after the 24/7 replay of "God damn America." Big whoop.

Probably the reason he hasn't done more is that it's hard to suddenly erase a 20-year relationship overnight in front of the entire country.

Um, or maybe he doesn't want to "erase a 20-year relationship overnight"?

And again, there's no comparison between what Obama has to distance himself and anything McCain has done over the last 20 years.

And again I agree with you. McCain has sidled up to his "agents of intolerance." No principles.

Ross, the premise for your argument is that you feel like you know and understand the relationship between a politician and his/her clergyman. So, I take it that your judgment of Wright/Obama comes only after you've spent time trying to truly understand popular strains of Black protestantism and how the church relates to its community?

However, your examples focus mainly on Catholicism and Judaism. I suspect that your premise is only valid for religions with which you're more familiar. I think that for many people, the basis for wanting more from Obama is the lack of familiarity with Black protestantism. Such discrimination on the basis of religion is not only a church-state separation issue, but also (ironically) a facet of the injustices that Wright was decrying.

After all, Obama has already written (w/o a ghostwriter) a couple of books about himself and his beliefs. This is clearly a double standard to require more from Obama.

I still don't see what the big deal is about Wright.

We know for certain that Obama does not share those views. What more is necessary?

I also agree that it is very self righteous and ignorant for whites to try to judge this without fully understanding the black church and its role in the black community. As others have pointed out, for blacks the church was its avenue of political participation...its avenue to struggle for social and civil justice...as the other avenues that whites have were not open to the black community That's one reason why so many legendary black leaders have come from the church tradition: MLK, Tutu, etc.

I say that all of these self righteous whites should bother to at least attend a black church for a little while, and really get to understand black people. Get to understand a race of people that were dragged here against their will, were enslaved for centuries, were then discriminated against for another century, and still live in many ways as second class citizens.

Until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes, do not try to judge.

"We know for certain that Obama does not share those views. What more is necessary?"

I don't know that. I know he says that, but I don't know what he feels for certain. Obviously, you have a much more personal relationship with the candidate than I do.

Plkease explain your certain knowledge, so that I can beleieve in him and bask in his holiness too.

Thanks.

"We know for certain that Obama does not share those views. What more is necessary?"

I don't know that. I know he says that, but I don't know what he feels for certain. Obviously, you have a much more personal relationship with the candidate than I do.

Please explain your certain knowledge, so that I can beleieve in him and bask in his holiness too.

Thanks.

Until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes, do not try to judge.

Even when he's asking me to elect him to the most powerful position on the planet and I don't know him from Adam? I'd say that's the perfect time to demand evidence and sit in judgment.

I get the feeling that some of you don't understand the difference between electing somebody to the Presidency and inviting them to the office party. The former demands a little more scrutiny, guys.

Close personal affiliations are par for the course, and they can be especially enlightening. They're almost the only bits of information we get about a candidate that haven't been washed and scrubbed to a squeaky brightness by the PR machine, so they're worth looking into and talking about.

And when information comes out that tends to contradict the core narrative and raison d'etre of a candidate, it becomes doubly important to get to the bottom of it.

This is standard operating procedure by now. It's just a prickly issue because of Obama's race.

What I can't understand is how Obama didn't foresee this as a liability. Perhaps his judgment on complex issues is not as keen as he says.

It may not be fair, but there is a difference between verbal criticisms against Islam and verbal criticisms directed against America and White people.

Obama needs White people and Americans to vote for him.

I'm sorry but I was under the impression Ross was supposed to know something about religion. The idea that catholics don't parish shop is patently absurd.
In case Ross hasn't quite clued in: many catholics find the pope's teachings on homosexuality disgusting - not just "outside the mainstream of American political discourse.
Is he going to stand up and declare his own remonstrance from the church on this issue?

"I don't know that. I know he says that, but I don't know what he feels for certain. Obviously, you have a much more personal relationship with the candidate than I do."

"I get the feeling that some of you don't understand the difference between electing somebody to the Presidency and inviting them to the office party. The former demands a little more scrutiny, guys."

OK, but apply the same standards to all candidates. What do you know about McCain's spiritual life? Or Hillary's? If you're comfortable with them without the same scrutiny, then that's an implicit bias and should be called out as such.

Close personal affiliations are par for the course, and they can be especially enlightening. They're almost the only bits of information we get about a candidate that haven't been washed and scrubbed to a squeaky brightness by the PR machine, so they're worth looking into and talking about.

If that's the case, then why aren't we hearing more about John McCain's "spiritual advisers," Bill Clinton's library donors, Hillary's close associations with the WalMart crowd, etc. etc. etc.

Ever since Hillary cried SNL the media has been all over Obama. It's time the spotlight shifted. Where are McCain's and Hillary's tax records? Why are Hillary's first lady papers sealed?

When will we hear more from Sinbad?

Ross,

You are one of the few conservatives, that I read now, as you seem to act from a core of belief, and integrity, that so many current "republicans" do not.

I hear what you are saying - if there was a close relationship between Robertson, or David Duke, and Bush or McCain (although there may be relationships unlooked at - do you think there might be "bad" episodes of Bush or McCain's pastor?), what would the left say?

I can tell you - we would be outraged, of course. That is true.

But there are elements here, you aren't acknowledging.

1. That Jeremiah Wright, solely by the virtue of these comments, is the SUM TOTAL of what Wright is. In that Wright is "beyond the pale".

You probably know this, but Andrew Sullivan has posted Wrights Audacity to Hope.

If you get a chance, read it.

You will see, that there is nothing controversial, or wrong, in what is written. In fact, what is there, in this sermon, is deeply inspiring, deeply hopeful.

Secondly, as you know, there clearly IS some resenttment in Wrightt, for what the United States has done, at various times, to his people. The United States has not always lived up to its promise, and Wright knows this well, as it has affected him, as it has the black community. Should he not reflect this? In terms of race relations, say especially in the 60's, what would Jesus say of the United States? We know that Jesus has said of the rich "Damn the rich!!". Jesus, seeing the prejudice and destruction given by segments of America to black people - you don't think Jesus, from a position of moral authority, might not say "Damn America?".

Now of course, that is not ALL of America. The United States is still the hope of the world, and the promise of the melting pot, merged with standing for freedom, the freedom to be, to pursue one's path, the freedom to LIVE the values that contribute to oneself, one's family, one's community, and the world. the freedom to reinvent oneself, because EVERY DAY IS A NEW DAY.

THIS, is also American. Be all you can be, you are encouraged.

America is complicated like that, pluses and minuses.

In the end, Obama has said that the tenor in Trinity Church, that he experience, over years of going, is the tenor of "Audacity to Hope". The tenor of lifting up, and service, and loving God. Remember, lots of black pastors condemn, say, homosexuality. Wright, from all accounts, didn't. He embraced, not only in his speech, but in the programs at the church, inclusiveness, service, even when he might have easily gone another way as a black preacher.

That was, in the main the tenor that Obama experience from the man, and from Trinity Church.


And not the tenor of hating America.

So in this case, I would ask - is the equation of Robertson and Wright accurate? Perhaps - but delve deep, and make sure.

Opus dei or some schismatic church? No, sorry, wrong. You're stacking the decks, as Trinity is not some secretive sect from The Da Vinci Code nor some deviant offshoot of a mainstream religion. So bugger off.

Back when Popes did make statements that fell beyond the pale of American discourse (in the Syllabus of Errors era, for instance) Catholics were frequently called upon to clarify their view of the Holy See's position, and while these calls were often laced with bigotry,

This is what we call a self-refuting argument, Ross.

Here's the real question: Exactly which one of Rev. Wright's comments is untrue? His remarks may have caused many white--and perhaps some black--Americans discomfort, but what are the portions that can be characterized as problematic, except to those who remain in acute denial about power and race in this country?

"Traditionally, Catholics weren't even allowed to parish-shop; where you lived determined where you want to mass."

And that's exactly the lens through which the large number of Catholic voters (~30% of the population) in Pennsylvania will see the issue. I'd venture to guess that 98% of those Catholics have never been inside an African-American church, and have only a vague idea of how Protestant ministers get to be minister of the congregation. For Catholics, the Church assigns a priest to the parish, and that's that. The parish basically has to accept it, regardless of how wacky the new priest's statements might be.

Add to that mix the idea that Protestants don't even have a bishop to control things if a priest really starts saying something crazy. (Catholics won't connect this to the way in which ministers get to be in charge of a church). The Catholics might feel bad for the congregation, but really, what's the congregation supposed to do? Stay home, not go to church? That's no way to exercise your faith. So you have to keep going, regardless of your crazy priest.

I guess this is a kind of long-winded way of saying that Wright's statements really aren't going to affect anything for most of the Catholic voters in PA. If anything, they'll think Obama's persistence in his faith says something good about him.

Very entertaining to watch the left's rationalizations. And what is most hilarious is that there is no way on earth that the Democrats should lose the general election ... but they will.

They may lose the election. I'm not sure I'd bet the house on it, though (assuming it hasn't already been foreclosed). McCain has, foolishly in my opinion, positioned himself as four more years of Bush.

He's done so mainly to mollify the "base", which by the way includes plenty of nutty Christian preachers, and right now, given the disappearing dollar, collapsing financial institutions, widespread foreclosures, rising unemployment, $112 oil and 30% inflation in food prices, probably won't be feeling overly generous toward the Republicans on election day.

Jimmy Carter and George H.W. Bush know that a slumping economy is poison to the incumbent party. This election isn't going to turn on Obama's crazy preacher. It might if there weren't so many far more serious problems in the USA.

Shelby Steele, a black writer, addresses this issue today in in a WSJ article, The Obama Bargain , as follows:

How does one “transcend” race in this church? The fact is that Barack Obama has fellow-traveled with a hate-filled, anti-American black nationalism all his adult life, failing to stand and challenge an ideology that would have no place for his own mother. And what portent of presidential judgment is it to have exposed his two daughters for their entire lives to what is, at the very least, a subtext of anti-white vitriol?
What could he have been thinking? Of course he wasn’t thinking. He was driven by insecurity, by a need to “be black” despite his biracial background. And so fellow-traveling with a little race hatred seemed a small price to pay for a more secure racial identity. And anyway, wasn’t this hatred more rhetorical than real?
But now the floodlight of a presidential campaign has trained on this usually hidden corner of contemporary black life: a mindless indulgence in a rhetorical anti-Americanism as a way of bonding and of asserting one’s blackness. Yet Jeremiah Wright, splashed across America’s television screens, has shown us that there is no real difference between rhetorical hatred and real hatred.

Steele basically views Obama as a tragic figure who hasn’t really faced up to his own bi-racial identity and has succumbed to the political advantages inherent in being a black bargainer exchanging redemption for whites for political and career advantage.

Anyone who really wants to understand Obama should read Steele’s trenchant article.

So the questions for Senator Obama, who certainly as not only a member but a prominent member could get the kind of attention from the UCC leadership that would bring change, would be these:

* Do you agree with the UCC's position on FALN? Do you agree with the Reverend Paul Sherry, the then-President of the UCC, that these terrorists should have been granted clemency?

* How about the honoring by the UCC of your Chicago constituent Alejandrina Torres? Should a maker of bombs, caught on a surveillance tape, be honored by our mutual church in any form or fashion? Do you or your wife Michelle share with the Reverend Linda Jaramillo an admiration for Ms. Torres as a "role model"?

* Do you or your wife know Ms. Torres, have you met her or had any contact with her in any form? Has she or her husband or any of their associates been supporters of your campaigns for state senator, Congress, the United States Senate or the presidency?

* Have you ever met Ms. Torres's husband and worshiped in the UCC church where he was a pastor?

* Have you ever at any time led or participated in a movement within the UCC to change the policies of the national leadership on FALN or, for that matter, anything else?

* Do you think President Clinton did the right thing pardoning these people? (Hmmm, come to think of it, there may be another candidate in this race who has some insight on the Clinton administration and FALN pardons. As a matter of fact...no, never mind. Ms. Burlingame's piece on the subject covers that ground.)

* Would you, as president of the United States, pardon those terrorists still behind bars?

It is very safe to say that the United Church of Christ is going to prove to be a veritable field of political landmines for Obama.

Stay tuned.

If not the pastor, then perhaps the denomination.

Obama denounced (and rejected!) the remarks as soon as he became aware of them.

The problem is that this requires us to believe Obama is dumb as a stump.

Neo appears to be taking guilt by association to new, and long ago charted, levels.

Perhaps, Neo, the first question to any Catholic candidate should be, "Do you know, or have you ever met, a child molesting priest? Have you ever attended a service conducted by a child molester"?

Or maybe a better question would simply be to ask, "Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the UCC"?

That kind of question makes it very simple and straigtforward.

JC Wrote: 'In terms of race relations, say especially in the 60's, what would Jesus say of the United States? We know that Jesus has said of the rich "Damn the rich!!". Jesus, seeing the prejudice and destruction given by segments of America to black people - you don't think Jesus, from a position of moral authority, might not say "Damn America?".'

My question is: When did Jesus, the Messiah, ever say, "Damn the rich"?

As I read through the gospels, it seems to me that Jesus the Lord did good to both rich and poor. He was very gracious to Zaccheus, chief of the rich, despised publicans (Luke 19:9). He blessed a Roman centurion (part of an occupying military) in Luke 7:1-9. He upheld contract law in the parable of the vineyard workers in Matthew 20:1-15. He commended profit-making in the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30.

I think we can find plenty of Bible support that God does not approve oppression of the poor by the rich, or oppression based on racial differences. But I cannot find Bible support that condemns a man simply because he is prosperous. And it seems to me that God has indeed blessed America.

In fact, in Isaiah 48:17, God teaches profit, "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."

MKS:

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)

Sounds a lot like what you say Jesus didn't say.

(You can, of course, dance preciously in semantic never-neverland. In fact, it's rather what's expected.)


"Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:34-35.

"He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away." Luke 1:51-53

"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are full now,
for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who are laughing now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets."
Luke 6:24-26.

"Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, 16 go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21.

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."
Luke 16:19-25.


Indeed, sounds a lot like what Jesus never said.

The only thing I wonder is: How is that this clerigemen declarations create such a scandal,while right wing ytelevangelists nut jobs -aka Pat Robertson- associated with the right don´t? How is that when Flawell and company said, for example, that 9/11 was a punishment to America for their tolerance of Gay rights, the media didn´t castigate the political right associated with this people. Oh well, they are right wingers after all...hypocresy is their mark