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Lieberman Democrats

31 Mar 2008 01:46 pm

lieberman.jpg

Michael Scherer doesn't think much of Joe Lieberman's "I didn't leave the Democrats; the Democrats left me" remarks on "The Week" over the weekend. Here's the quote:

Well, I say that the Democratic Party changed. The Democratic Party today was not the party it was in 2000. It’s not the Bill Clinton-Al Gore party, which was strong internationalists, strong on defense, pro-trade, pro-reform in our domestic government. It’s been effectively taken over by a small group on the left of the party that is protectionist, isolationist and basically will —and very, very hyperpartisan. So it pains me.

But as Reihan notes, Lieberman is factually correct: The Democratic Party has shifted leftward over the last decade, on the fronts he mentions as well as others. Moreover, among many of Lieberman's left-liberal foes, this leftward shift is viewed as a great achievement, which suggests that they would be better served treating his comments as a compliment than as a calumny. It's fair to pillory Lieberman for failing to change with the times; it's a little strange to pillory him for merely pointing out that times have changed.

The only truly questionable portion of Lieberman's remarks is his suggestion that the change agents responsible for the Democratic Party's progressive turn represent "a small group on the left of the party." It's too soon to tell if the the new-model Democrats are headed for a long-term majority or just a short-term, post-Bush bounce, and maybe Lieberman's right that the the Dems' leftward shift will eventually drive the party into a political ditch. But given how the landscape looks right now, Lieberman sounds an awful lot like the Rockefeller Republicans of yore, who would complain about how a "small group of extremists" in the conservative movement were hijacking their party and dooming it to defeat, even as those same extremists were leading the GOP to national successes that the Jacob Javitses and Christine Todd Whitmans and Lowell Weickers could only dream about.

There's an important lesson here: Namely, that the American "center" moves around a lot (and varies wildly on an issue-by-issue basis), and thus a party that moves leftward or rightward on the hot-button issues of the day can sometimes find a new center that nobody realized was there. This tends to leave the inhabitants of the old middle - the Rockefeller Republicans in the '70s and '80s, and perhaps the Lieberman Democrats of today - flummoxed and out-of-step, unable to figure out that just because they've always considered themselves "centrists" doesn't mean the American people will always agree with them.

Photo by Flickr user Lieberman_2006 used under a Creative Commons license.

Comments (115)

Certainly the vehemence of the left is during the Bush years has driven the energy level way up for the far left.

Yet I cannot reconcile this with other more effective electoral approaches that go to the middle. As Lieberman’s own win in Connecticut suggests. Also the Pro-Life Casey win & the 2006 line up of pro military and centrist candidates. Add in the new found willingness for "Godtalk" & substantial (at least rhetorical) pro-life talk.

Lieberman is perfectly within his rights to decry the changes he perceives in the Democratic party, although his claims that this is the result of actions by some small group within the party are patently absurd. But if he had the courage of his convictions, he would leave the party, stop calling himself a Democrat ("independent Democrat" or otherwise) and give up his Senate committee chairmanship.

Yet I cannot reconcile this with other more effective electoral approaches that go to the middle.

Except you, and the media, constantly define "the middle" as "conservative", rendering this discussion meaningless.

Joe calls it like he sees it. If we elect the Democrats we will be wondering what to do when the Iranians have the bomb. McCain will move forward in finishing the war in Iraq by going after the major source of terror in the middle east Iran. We have a duty to support Israel and Americans need to continue to sacrifice until we make the middle east safe. This is what Jesus wants us to do.

Joe Lieberman is the closest representation of my political views. I am a registered Independent. I voted for Bill Clinton twice and worked on his first campaign. I voted for Al Gore. By 2004, I had become deeply disturbed by the shifts in the Democratic party. I voted for George Bush in 2004. When Joe Lieberman was forced out of the Democratic party, I realized that I would never vote for another Democrat again, regardless of their personal qualifications, because the Democratic party had moved from liberal to leftist. I am now an active supporter of John McCain.

Lol -- the Dems, left? I guess that depends upon what the meaning of "left" is. This is one of the most politically guarded parties out there. Left sounds like something courageous to me. The Dems have absolutely demonstrated a lack of courage this election cycle. The wealthy elites (and I guess I could fit into this mold - depending on the meaning of "wealthy") have highjacked the party. They sell some progressive items, but really, the just want power like everyone else. But that's all they want. NO reform, nothing. The Dems are a sham. A bankrupt party. Obama is just another one of them. He is all talk and no action. What exactly will he change? Oh - that health insurance thing with no money. Get real. You cannot be a leftist without courage or money for programs. The Democrats offer neither.

Yes the dems took over based on republican mistakes and corruption scandals. They also put out people like Casey and other conservative dems to win in conservative areas. At some point Casey will be called to act on what he ran on and if he does not the a center right republican will easily take that seat back. He ran as pro-life and pro-gun yet gives a party that is pro-abortion and anti-gun, control of the agenda. At some point that dog will come home to bite. That is the real fire the dems are playing with by overstating their control. They already have a sizable bluedog congressional delegation. Those guys are ripe for the picking for a conservative that can lead.

RE earlier comment that, "if he had the courage of his convictions, he would leave the party, stop calling himself a Democrat . . . and give up his Senate committee chairmanship." This makes no sense. If Lieberman crossed the aisle to the Republicans, they would be in the majority and he could basically have any committee chairmanship he wants.

The notion that being against the war in Iraq is "left" is just plain nonsense. Lieberman's attempt to equate opposition to Iraq with Afghanistan is a lie, pure and simple. And his claim that the Democrats are the hyper-partisan party, cry me a Tom Delay - Karl Rove river.

The mainstream of the Democratic party is exemplified by its two remaining candidates, both of whom are resolute in their desire to wage war on Al Qaeda and not get involved in misadventures. They are right. Lieberman is dead wrong.

"Joe Lieberman is the closest representation of my political views. I am a registered Independent. I voted for Bill Clinton twice and worked on his first campaign. I voted for Al Gore. By 2004, I had become deeply disturbed by the shifts in the Democratic party. I voted for George Bush in 2004. When Joe Lieberman was forced out of the Democratic party, I realized that I would never vote for another Democrat again, regardless of their personal qualifications, because the Democratic party had moved from liberal to leftist. I am now an active supporter of John McCain."

I with this guy. I voted for Dems for twelve straight years, as an Indy, and for the forseeable future, I'll be voting with Repubs. They are much more in line with my own thinking, and my expectations for the country. I'm sick of identity politics, sticking our heads in the sand on terror, and the love affair with socialism and anything contrarian.

The notion that being against the war in Iraq is "left" is just plain nonsense. Lieberman's attempt to equate opposition to Iraq with Afghanistan is a lie, pure and simple. And his claim that the Democrats are the hyper-partisan party, cry me a Tom Delay - Karl Rove river.

The mainstream of the Democratic party is exemplified by its two remaining candidates, both of whom are resolute in their desire to wage war on Al Qaeda and not get involved in misadventures. They are right. Lieberman is dead wrong.

Posted by Paul '52 | March 31, 2008 2:59 PM

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The only thing Mr O is resolute about is his defense of the good Rev Wright. Everything else is he can deal on.

One area where he might not be precisely right is trade. For example, the Pew Typology found that liberals nearly doubled between their 1999 and 2005 Typology Surveys, but Liberals favored free trade.This other survey showed liberals favored free trade, and liberals embraced the idea that America should be active in the world, according to the annual Values and Attitudes survey out of Pew Research. The rise in isolationism came among moderate Democrats, and they're more likely to embrace protectionism.

I think it's pretty obvious that it's dominated by a fairly small group--say 30% or so. Obama is their candidate, and has about 30-40% of the white and Hispanic Democrat vote, which is about how much of the party is extremely liberal. That and the overwhelming majority of black voters is about all he has.

While Obama is slightly ahead in the popular vote, he's managed this because of the small turnouts in caucus states--dominated, for the most part, by the very people Lieberman is talking about.

If the party were dominated by this leftist thinking, Obama would have closed the deal long ago.

If it looks like a Republican, smells like a Republican, and acts like a Republican yet insists it's a Democrat that doesn't make it any less of a Republican. I'm a Democrat from Connecticut who approves this message.

NON-BLACK VOTERS ARE SICK OF EVERY BLACK POLITICAN/SO-CALLED RACIST PREACHERS DEFENDING THE RACIST OBAMA AND WRIGHT. THE MEDIA CAN TOUT ALL THE BOGUS LIES THEY WANT...ITS VOTERS WHO MAKE THE DECISION AND WE ARE MORE EDUCATED THAN YOU GIVE CREDIT! OBAMA IS NOT WRIGHT TO LEAD OUR COUNTRY AND WE WILL NOT VOTE FOR HIM!!!!

Democrats NEED Clinton to stay in the race. OBAMA IS UNELECTABLE IN GENERAL ELECTION. Wright pastor is not going away anytime soon Rev Wright
says you don't have to wait for the afterlife for the mansion on the hilltop, hes right! to shut him up Trinity United Church of Christ is building Rev. Wright a $1 mil house on a lot that was purchased for $345,000. According to his federal income tax return Obama gave the Trinity United church $22,500 in contributions. CBS Chicago has strangely not released video they have of Obama at Trinity United Church of Christ Service with Pastor Wright. According to a Chicago Tribune article, at the Service Obama spoke to the cheering congregation and the choir sang, “Hallelujah Barack”. After the service Wright and Obama sat together, laughing , talking and signing books. if ANY other candidate had this controversy swirling the footage would have found it’s way to the national and cable news networks by now! Obama who marched with Farrakhan”Obama AND OPRAHS Pastor Slurs Italians in Latest Magazine (CNSNews.com) Wright continues his Obama supported attacks on non-blacks now slurring Italians in issue of Trumpet Newsmag. Wright states, Jesus enemies had their opinion, Italians looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans, and Jesus death on a cross was a public lynching Italian style! This government runs everything from the White House to the schoolhouse, from the Capitol to the KKKlan of white supremacy who is clearly in charge. Every issue published Wright's rant against white people in which he covers a world that is controlled by white supremacy, a country that’s on its way to hell in a hand basket because of lying politicians, in a culture that still thinks 'white is right! He said young African-American Christians are more concerned about 'bling bling' than about freeing their minds and still Obama says I could no more disown him than I could disown the black community. Trumpet Newsmagazine started 80s, Wright is CEO and Wright's daughter, Jeri Wright, is the publisher. Requests for comments Obama camp of course not answered. Trumpet Nov/Dec edition, featured Louis Farrakhan, recipient of the Lifetime Achievement "Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter" award. Farrakhan has called Judaism a "gutter religion" and said Jews are "bloodsuckers. Many of the biased cable news pundits try to make viewers believe Obama's speech limited damage of Wright controversy, but the general election will show voters strongly disagree, especially non-black voters. Obama refuses to explain to the public why he would have someone as such a close spiritual advisor and mentor and why he would expose two young daughters to such hatefulness against fellow Americans. The problem Wright's comments are not theological views, but political statements. This is a serious issue for Obama in general election. As with each new utterance on the topic of Reverend Wright, Barack Obama confirms his own moral obliviousness and he seems to have disdain for those who are troubled by his own unwillingness to break with Wright, even worse Obama still insists Wright is a brilliant man, So brilliant, apparently, that he has uncovered the plot by white America to kill African Americans, so insightful to perceive the 9/11 attacks caused by American terrorism and his discerning observation Israel is a “dirty” word, and still in Obama’s eyes, Wright is brilliant. This, we are told by biased cable news pundits like CNN Obamaphiles, is not supposed to affect voters’ view of Obama’s judgment. Perhaps voters are embarrassed to tell pollsters they are privately offended. General election Republicans as well as independents and democrats are irked by this moral obtuseness even though media like CNN or Hardball cover it up with bogus Clinton attacks.

Joe is exactly correct in his view that the democratic party has shifted wildly to the left. Emboldened by their "sweep" of the 2006 mid term elections the far left has convinced the rest of the party that the country is following along. This is patently false as evidenced by the fact that war hawk John McCain out polls Obama and Hillary. If the country was truly moving to the far left then Pelosi and Reid would be wildly popular (they aren't) and McCain would have no chance. If the country is really with Pelosi and Reid what can't they pass one meaningful piece of legislation? Gob bless Joe Leiberman for standing up to these fools.

Excellent post, Ross, and congratulations for RealClearPolitics linking to it.

Idunno, Ross. It seems to me that if Joe Lieberman is the flipside to the Rockefeller coin, that would put Kos, MoveOn, and George Soros as analogous to the Reagan Coalition. Color me highly skeptical on that point.

Even in left-wing Connecticut the democrats couldn't defeat a man who had the courage to stand up to ridiculous anti-war ideology. On one side of the conflict we have al qaeda, code pink, and hamas. On the other, common sense.

The mob is fickle and so is the American electorate.

Cal, the problem with your argument is women. For example, in the 2006 exit poll for the CT Senate race, there was no gender gap. In 2008's primary, there was. With regards to how big a group, Liberals were the biggest group in the 2005 Typology.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I tend to vote for whichever side manages to nominate a candidate who SERIOUSLY annoys the so-called "base" of his or her party. McCain would seem to be the man this year. A Democrat with centrist inclinations, one who had MoveOn in a constant lather, would do just as well.

For those of us who aren't professional politicians, the extremes at both ends sound more or less the same. They are two factions I don't belong to, fighting each other for the right to boss me around. No thanks.

Nothing Lieberman says has any merit. The people have moved left, mostly on the war. The idea that the Democrats are out of the mainstream with the war is ludicrous. Lieberman is the one who is out of the mainstream.

Right on, Joe!

All one has to do is check the failures of the latest anti-war movies, songs, and Code Pink, Vote Vets anti-war protests. Absolutely Pathetic!! Most of us are not ready for George Soros and his minions to take over our country. MCCain will slaughter these Anti-Americans.

No the 'middle' never moves in politics. And it hasn't moved leftward in the past few years either, no matter how ardently Obama's supporters like to imagine so. I am totally a Leiberman Democrat--in fact, I left the party the day he got drummed out. I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004 and will vote, far more enthusiastically, for McCain in November. But I am neither a Republican nor a right-winger--nor, as some of my liberal friends refer to anyone not voting for Obama, a 'fearer-hater'; I'm still exactly the same in my beliefs as I've always been. And I will vote for any candidate who reflects their core--decency, patriotism and tolerance--regardless of labels. Obama may or may not be a patriot, but his tolerance for indecency in the person of his pastor is now a proven fact. Further, his leftist agenda alone is enough to scare off any centrist not hypnotized by his act. I could no more vote for him than for his rightwing equivalent, if Pat Buchanan were young, sexy, and charismatic.

I was a loyal Democrat for many years and even voted for McGovern in 1972. I voted against Reagan. In the last several years I have had the time to review the Reagan years which my liberal friends and I found laughable. I discovered that the historical record is a great deal more accurate than the hysteria that Republicans generated in us Democrats. I learned that Reagan was a great president. What happened was that I had forgotten how to think for myself and voted out of loyalty and emotion, the principal emotion being dislike for Republicans. Today the welfare state is anathema to me and I am convinced that if the government becomes our nanny, we as a people will become dependent on it. I realize that whatever I accomplished as a son of hard-working immigrants to this country was accomplished by dint of hard work and study. Individual initiative and personal responsibity are still the keys to advancement despite what liberal Democrats tell us.

I am neither Republican nor Democrat. Joe Lieberman is one of the few politicians I find myself able to agree with pretty consistently. I listen to all the pundits. I often followup on what I hear and read online and in print by "reading" Joe. Is he always right? No, but he is the best political barometer I have found. It's my take that the Democratic Party not only left Joe, they left the voters in Connecticut. Apparently those voters, as evidenced by the last election, agree!

I'm a moderate. I voted for Clinton, Bush in '00 (oops), and Kerry in '04.

I agree with Lieberman on domestic & trade issues. The principle difference between Lieberman and the political center is that he and his ilk are willing to sacrifice our children for the sake of Israel, and we, the political center, are not.

The irony Lieberman's positions on defense & mideast intervention is that they're politically suicidal. That is, if his mideast vision were carried to fruition, then we'd need to institute a draft, which would invariably result in the political demise of those who made it necessary. I, for one, would do everything in my power to prevent the institution of a draft to populate a war in the mideast, and I don't think I'm alone.

Walt wrote that if Lieberman is the moern equivalent of a Rockefeller Republican, "Kos, MoveOn, and George Soros as analogous to the Reagan Coalition. Color me highly skeptical on that point."

Why? Democrats have more popular policies on the Iraq occupation, health care, the security state, and most other issues. (In fact, the electorate altogether is further to the "left" than the Democrats on those issues). The GOP has nothing but rhetoric. Even immigration, which riled up the GOP base, isn't really a winner for them.

Lieberman's two year respite is over. The Republicans tanked their guy to keep him in, but it doesn't matter. The Democrats will expand their majority in the Senate and Lieberman will be useless. He's finished working with the majority party. Good.

Cal, the problem with your argument is women. For example, in the 2006 exit poll for the CT Senate race, there was no gender gap.

But Connecticut is a wealthy and liberal state, so the fact that there's no gender gap doesn't mean much.

Clinton's gender might skew the vote a bit, but not by a 3:2 or 2:1 margin.

My parents are 65+ partisan Dems - never voted R in their life.

They like Joe and think he's right - they also like JM.

Lots of retired "typical" white people vote - if Obama's (the most liberal senator) on the ticket get used to the term "McCain Democrats".

Ross, this is just oddly off for you:

"strong internationalists, strong on defense, pro-trade, pro-reform"

Democrats are still the party of internationalism. Democrats, unlike Joe L's bleed America dry policy, are strong on defense, and, unlike Joe, reasonable.

Democrats are pro-trade, including the necessary step to making it workable by including a robust safety net.

Democrats are pro-reform, and, of the two parties, cleary the party interested in doing things above board.

If you define free trade as agreements that force other countries to adhere to our intellectual property laws, you are misusing terms -- that is what Joe is doing, and that is what is objectionable.

Mike In Texas-- If you're interested, it turns out that the "most liberal senator" claim from National Journal was completely false.

You may have a point that older white people don't want to vote for a black person, but I don't think it will be that large a phenomenon.

Mike In Texas-- If you're interested, it turns out that the "most liberal senator" claim from National Journal was completely false.

You may have a point that older white people don't want to vote for a black person, but I don't think it will be that large a phenomenon.

Posted by Elvis Elvisberg | March 31, 2008 5:00 PM

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Why is Mr O afraid of being called a lib anyhow? You never hear a republican being afraid of being called a conservative? Mr O is pro-abortion, pro-gun control, for big government and more spending, for class war fare. He is a typical lib dem and if he is proud of it run on it. He does protest too much!!!

Lieberman hits it on the head. No liberal has ever been elected from the Democratic Party -ever. The only chance for the White House since 76 was to move centrist and then, Clinton only won with a strong 3rd Party challenge from Perot.
These folks are delusional.

Re: I voted for Dems for twelve straight years, as an Indy, and for the forseeable future, I'll be voting with Repubs.

Well, I made the opposite transition. I used to split my ticket quite regularly, voting for Clinton for president, but for GOP governors (Engler of MI) and congressional representation. Since 1998 I have not voted for a Republican at the national level, and in this decade I have rarely voted for them even at local level. I am that disgusted, appalled, revolted and horrified by the disaster that has been George Bush and his congressional chorus. Yes, I am wary and sometimes turned off by the antics of the Left. You'll occasionally find me arguing with them here. But they would have to go a long, long way to screw the country over as badly as the GOP has. I'm willing to give them that chance. Maybe in the years I will be back to voting for Republicans, but they will have to be much chastened, much humbled Republicans who reject at least 3/4 of the current rightwing-nut agenda.

Lieberman hits it on the head. No liberal has ever been elected from the Democratic Party -ever. The only chance for the White House since 76 was to move centrist and then, Clinton only won with a strong 3rd Party challenge from Perot.
These folks are delusional.

I think Lieberman's claim that the Democratic Party has moved away from him ideologically in the recent past very odd. He was a member of the Democratic Party in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. At times the party was farther left than it is now, and at times it was farther right. The two major parties are big tents with members who believe all kinds of things. All that happened to make Lieberman different is that he has a massive ego and made himself believe, when Gore picked him for VP in 2000, that rather than being a conservative Democrat more or less out of step with the majority of the party on significant issues (like many, many conservative Democrats who happily remain Democrats), he was actually an important national figure who could be the Democratic nominee for president. When the Democrats rejected that notion in 2004 he was offended and rejected the Democrats back. Then they rejected him in his 2006 primary. And now he's rejecting them entirely. Ego, nothing more.

On national security the party of Roosevelt, Truman, and Kennedy has been replaced by that of Mcgovern, Carter, Kennedy, Kerry, Obama, et al.

On social issues the party has caved to the academic elitists and Bobos who favor abortion and homosexual marriage.

Personally, I voted for Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter and then woke up to reality, voting for Republicans consistently since the Reagan years.

When the public wakes up to Obama, the Democrats shall once again fall on their liberal swords.

@Dave:

I think there is some correlation that people make between moving "left" and becoming more polarized. Both parties have been accused of becoming more "right wing" or more "left wing", but really the Bush years have actually moved things in a significantly more polarized and partisan direction, which makes it seem like they are moving in a more fanatical direction. (Bush, for all his many, many flaws, has actually moved the Republican party very leftward on many issues).

In that sense, I don't think Liberman's comments are about ego at all-- they just equate the increasingly polarized democratic party (which more and more is beginning to listen to some very fanantical progressives on a whole host of issues) with a more leftist party. Liberman has rejected that kind of polarization and has been more open to compromise. This hasn't gone over well with the faction within either party that sees that sort of maneuver at best as political manipulation, and at worst betrayal.

I was a loyal Democrat for many years, but now I am a proud Independent. I even voted for Kennedy in `60. By 1964, I had become deeply disturbed by the shifts in the Democratic party.

I am totally a Strom Thurmond Democrat--in fact, I left the party the day he left it. I held my nose and voted for Goldwater in 1964 and will vote, far more enthusiastically, for Nixon in November. But I am neither a Republican nor a right-winger--nor, as some of my liberal friends refer to anyone not voting for RFK, a 'racist'; I'm still exactly the same in my beliefs as I've always been. Finally a Republican is asking for the votes of people like me.

I'm sick of identity politics, sticking our heads in the sand on the commies, and the love affair with socialism and anything contrarian.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I tend to vote for whichever side manages to nominate a candidate who SERIOUSLY annoys the so-called "base" of his or her party. Nixon would seem to be the man this year. A Democrat with centrist inclinations, one who had the NAACP in a constant lather, would do just as well. I may just vote for George Wallace after all!

No the 'middle' never moves in politics. And it hasn't moved leftward in the past few years either, no matter how ardently RFK's supporters like to imagine so.

Us Politics is very interesting just now: the centre is indeed most volatile. However the way we define it needs review: is it the mid point between two extremes (say very low tax versus high progressive penalties) or is it the natural middle ground supported by history or sociological study (I call it the lower middle class patriot test).

You know the Norman Rockwell ideals of the four freedoms worth fighting and dying for ... the type of person who is neither dirt poor or filthy rich, the small town values that you find in many families regardless of locality; the type of patriotism and social conscious depicted in the Redford Film Lions for Lambs ... the lower middle class who dont have an easy ride, who dont have a safe job or plumb endowment fund ... the sort of Americans who make up the glue that sticks community together ...

If the leftist cheer squad push the Dems too far to the left (on security, Israel, housing, school funding, immigration or tax) the centre doesnt shift leftwards ... it stands and then adopts the least disturbing choice.

I see a shift of about 10 points in upper income voter appeal for the HRC/BO choice to reflect a upper middle class clamour for change ... but that will be countered by a smaller percentage but larger actual vote shift of McCain Dems (call them LD if you want) in key demographics groups like Hispanic/African American veterans and their families; voters focused on Israel and the Middle East security; and middle class women who are not comfortable with the Dem position on all things.

A lost vote in the Hamptons is not as important as a vote gained in California's suburbs or Pennsylvania's market towns or the Florida retirenment belt.

Elvis Elvisberg - The National Journal label "most liberal senator" stuck, because Obama voted present more than anything else. Half the time, he didn't show up for work, being too busy on the campaign trail. The only bills with his name on them are the ones he attached it to where others did the heavy lifting. He is ambitious, unready and very left. The Hyde Park crowd says enough to us.

Gordon, you wrote

"I'm a moderate. I voted for Clinton, Bush in '00 (oops), and Kerry in '04.

I agree with Lieberman on domestic & trade issues. The principle difference between Lieberman and the political center is that he and his ilk are willing to sacrifice our children for the sake of Israel, and we, the political center, are not."

Anyone who can write the third sentence above with a straight face cannot possibly be considered a moderate.

RRD

I find the racism shown by the Clinton/Obama democrats..to be nothing short of shocking.

Non-anglos can barely open their mouths - take sides - without being asked snide questions about our ancestry.

If thats the case, we might as well vote for John Sidney McCain - more American , more Anglo ,than 90% of the johnny-come-lately-Ellis-island-democrats.

In a year when the Republicans might have been as vulnerable to a landslide defeat because of the war, the economy and other domestic concerns, it is telling that the two best candidates the Democrats offer are having a tough time making any headway against a 71 year old senator who has been a steadfast supporter of the Iraq war and admits to little expertise in matters of the economy. One lesson readers should learn from this mess is that both Democratic candidates are too far to the left of him, although Hillary has managed to scamper back to the center in the past year as her husband was for eight years. Leiberman's inspiring election in Connecticut should have taught the party a lesson, but alas, when the party is controlled by ideologues such as Soros, Pelosi and Reid, and now Obamafiles, there's little chance such lessons will be absorbed.

As a lifelong Democrat until recently, I can't see any reason to support either one this year. McCain will get my vote. Oh yes, nothing Obama says will matter now that his association with a racist, antisemite and anti-American is out there.

In a year when the Republicans might have been as vulnerable to a landslide defeat because of the war, the economy and other domestic concerns, it is telling that the two best candidates the Democrats offer are having a tough time making any headway against a 71 year old senator who has been a steadfast supporter of the Iraq war and admits to little expertise in matters of the economy. One lesson readers should learn from this mess is that both Democratic candidates are too far to the left of him, although Hillary has managed to scamper back to the center in the past year as her husband was for eight years. Leiberman's inspiring election in Connecticut should have taught the party a lesson, but alas, when the party is controlled by ideologues such as Soros, Pelosi and Reid, and now Obamafiles, there's little chance such lessons will be absorbed.

As a lifelong Democrat until recently, I can't see any reason to support either one this year. McCain will get my vote. Oh yes, nothing Obama says will matter now that his association with a racist, antisemite and anti-American is out there.

I am so sick and tired of the delusional Libs harping on how Bush and the Republicans have "screwed the country". Just because the MSM has simply refused to give Bush any credit whatsoever on the economy the last 7 years, or the fact that there has not been another attack by terrorists, or anything else he has accomplished through his leadership, does not make such a lopsided view correct. Just because Bush's approval ratings are in the low thirties does not mean everyone agrees with the Libs or the MSM. Fact is that due to Bush's less than conservative moments, he has angered some on the right so what we have is 70% of the people dissatisfied with Bush for two very contradictory reasons. Same with the so called "Right track/Wrong track" polls as they reflect the large number of conservative middle Americans who see the country on the wrong track culturally, very much opposite the Libs. This will all play out this fall with Obama getting crushed.

To Elvis Elvisberg:

> You may have a point that older white
> people don't want to vote for a black
> person

They did vote for a black person - and now they want their vote back.

Would a black person who voted for a white person want their vote back after they learned the guy they voted for had David Duke perform their wedding, baptize their kids, and was their "spiritual inspiration" for 20 years?

Obama's elect-ability outside of Hyde Park is questionable at best.

Voters like the idea of 'moderate conservatism' as an abstract concept (like the idea of 'President John McCain') but on policy they are liberal and have become increasingly so. As for Iraq those Republicans who actually want to stay in power are waiting for an opportune moment to declare victory and leave. Remember Vietnamization under Nixon.As for tracking the centre remember Woodrow Wilson Gold Democrat (the first neo-conservatives?) in 1896 to progressive in 1912.

For my 45-year lifetime, the Democratic Party has been the "Hate America" party. Carter proclaimed in 1976 that "the time of American dominance is over. We need to be content to be just one of the many nations in the world. We are nothing special". He promptly gave away the Panama Cannel, banned the CIA from any secrete operations, sat back and let Iran fall to extremists, let Cuba and Central America run wild, Laid prostrate at the feet of the Soviet Union. Democrats Hate America and Obama falls into that same group. It can not be overlooked that his guidance and spiritual leader was a White hating, anti-Semitic, America hating preacher teaching a young (20’s) Obama and his wife (I am only now proud of America) all that is evil with White America. It is truly sad when a “power couple” like the Obama’s believe that America is so “mean” that they had the opportunity to go to America’s best Universities and make over $1 million for several years, and his wife makes over $300,000 per year at the age of 45. They make it seem like they had to wait too long to be mega successful. America is sick of these negative anti-everythings and need to get back to the basics of having to do a lifetime of hard work to be prosperous.

Anymore talk that Lieberman's pro-war, pro-militarist, pro-interventionist positions are "centrist" and I'm going to barf.

"My parents are 65+ partisan Dems - never voted R in their life.

They like Joe and think he's right - they also like JM.

Lots of retired "typical" white people vote - if Obama's (the most liberal senator) on the ticket get used to the term "McCain Democrats"."

This is true. I am amazed that my 75 year old parents told be they actually sent MONEY to McCain! The last time my mother sent money to a politian was in 1980 when se sent money to Teddy Kennedy in the primary. Mind you, she ony sends $25, but seh never sends money to ANYONE. Old people like McCains "maturity" and they have apprication for what living 70 years was like...and they know it wasn't easy!

The L word has been deformed beyond recognition, but as people look what has happened as the right has relentlessly removed oversight and consumer protective practices from the financial arena, the workplace, law enforcement, and even the Geneva Convention, the so-called "radical left" has stepped in to suggest that having grown ups ask for transparency in these areas.

Lieberman cannot imagine a political world without himself in it, so his creative redefinitions of his principles are no surprise. If you like the tax, spend, and suspend protection practices of Lieberman, Bush, and the rest, vote, but don't claim you are voting your conscience.

The L word has been deformed beyond recognition, but as people look what has happened as the right has relentlessly removed oversight and consumer protective practices from the financial arena, the workplace, law enforcement, and even the Geneva Convention, the so-called "radical left" has stepped in to suggest that having grown ups ask for transparency in these areas shouldn't be too much to ask.

Lieberman cannot imagine a political world without himself in it, so his creative redefinitions of his principles are no surprise. If you like the tax, spend, and suspend protection practices of Lieberman, Bush, and the rest, vote, but don't claim you are voting your conscience.

If Joe Leiberman reflected the views of most Demorcrats today, they'd win reelection easily. However if far-left Obama gets the nomination watch for lots of crossover votes to McCain. Lots of folk's are offended by "god damn america" and Obama's failure to denounce his bigoted preacher.

Lots of folks are using Rev Wright as an excuse to defend their continued support of Bush-like governance.

No, KC. Lots of people are using Rev. Wright as an example of Barack Obama being wildly out of the American political mainstream.

I've been saying this for the past two months now. The left wingers have taken over the Democratic Party.

However, they can't take me over... If they insist on pushing Mr. Obama to the nomination I am going to be a McCain Democrat this fall! I have no problem with it!

I've stopped fundraising and donating to the DNC. I'm hoping it will go bankrupt because the DNC is already having major financial issues. I say let the left wingers have the party and we, who identify with the center to conservative side of the Party, go form our own party when this mess is all over with in November. I'd have no problem fundraising and donating to promote this idea! Knowing it's a hard thing to do... nothing is ever impossible!

Lieberman is right. Over time, Democrats have devolved into Homocrats.

Liberals have devolved into Fascists.

Five O'Clock-- did you read the article that I linked? Here's the conclusion about the "most liberal" label from National Journal: "Obama is more liberal than Clinton because he voted with John McCain, the most likely Republican nominee, and Tom Coburn, one of the Senate's most conservative members. Ain’t political rankings a wonderful thing."

Also, your assertion that Obama didn't take the lead on legislation is false.

Mike in Texas-- what did Obama's pastor say that's racist? Also, what are the implications of this for the policies he would implement as president? Do you think that Rev. Wright's comments are more troubling than those of much more influential Republicans like John Hagee and Pat Robertson?

I think that KC has it right. It's much easier, as a partisan Republican, to fall back on, "oh boy, that man on TV is sure scary and black!" than to defend anything that the GOP has done in the past 8 years or anything that McCain proposes to do as president. Ross has scrounged around for new reasons to be troubled by Wright's comments for that reason. As Daniel Larison has pointed out, Hagee's comments are far more troubling.

"Oh yes, nothing Obama says will matter now that his association with a racist, antisemite and anti-American is out there."

Do you mean Pastor Wright, or Michelle Obama? Both fit your description, you know.

The American public is becoming aware of two things that have been true for a long time :

1) Obama is a leftists, and is surrounded by leftists.

2) Leftists are strongly anti-US.

Both of these are becoming more widely known.

> Mike in Texas-- what did Obama's pastor say
> that's racist?

WTF - he's David Duke without the hood you fool.

> Do you think that Rev. Wright's comments are
> more troubling than those of much more
> influential Republicans like John Hagee and
> Pat Robertson?

Who cares, did Hagee or Robertson perform McCain's wedding or baptize his kids - did McCain name a book after these whackos?

The "moral equilavency" you draw is insane.

Obama == A LifeTime of Bad Judgment ... unless he only wants to get elected in Hyde Park.

Can the Dems win if they lose the McCain Dems? I think not - the maths tell a story ... the heavily Dem States will remain in the fold, but the battleground States with the specific inclusion of Florida, Penn and California, are open territory for McCain. If FL PA and CA turn GOP by a whisker then it is goodbye to the race. I think we will see a very interesting thing if the JM campaign looks to the a young but culturally more diverse VP choice - say the Gov from Lou or a stand out woman from the world of community leadership such as Gov Palan from AL. What do you think?

The great depression was made so due to, among other factors, the severe contraction of the money supply,the raising of taxes and the Hawley-Smoot Tariff. The Obama-Clinton program supports two of those legs,raising taxes and tariffs. Sounds like a winner when coupled with appeasement abroad.

The American Public is joining the Democratic Party in unprecedented numbers and sending record amounts of small donations to both candidates. The American Public made their judgment against Bush's war and peacetime agendas long ago.

McCain is 8 years too late, even if Obama may be four years too early.

Rage against the change if you will, but don't pretend it is the fringe minority.

Mike in Texas-- I'm serious. I thought he said that God should damn America, and that's what everyone, including Obama, was upset about. What did he say that was racist?

"Anymore talk that Lieberman's pro-war, pro-militarist, pro-interventionist positions are "centrist" and I'm going to barf."

Hey! Keep up that talk that pro-Islamist, pro-my-relative in the military should be defeated, anti-freedom positions are centrist--and get used to saying President McCain.

He's not as good as President Thompson, but compared to Barak "God Damn America's OK by me" Hussein and Hillary "My life's Mission is to nationalize 20% of the economy outright" Clinton--President McCain will do nicely.

Tood Liberals have devolved into Fascists.

What? That's absurd. Sort of like the Liberals who claim Bush is like that German fellow with the short mustache.
Let's be serious. Americans flow between left and right positions. True the Democrats are further left today than 2000. But that's partly because Republicans are further right than they were years ago. Both parties react to each other. If they were all moderates then there would be no need for a second party.

I totally sympathize with Lieberman on this issue. As someone who comes from a traditional Democratic family, I've become like an orphan in the Democratic party over the past 6 or so years. It's to the point now where I officially call myself and "independent" in much the same way Lieberman does. The Clinton's were the last people in the party who represented my people - blue collar background with conservative social leanings. We don't want to spend the rest of our lives apologizing to every minority group that has ever been wronged. Many of us have had a tough life, but worked hard and got ahead. That's what America is about, some folks just don't get it or they do and they refuse to do it.

For the first time ever, I'll be voting for a Republican for president. Even more significant than that is my 68 year old mother will be voting for a Republican for the first time in her life. We are not fans of the netroots, the apologists and the likes of the latte Daily Kos crowd. The fact that this election is even going to be close says what sorry shape the Democratic Party is in today.

Many of us don't recognize the party that once championed our values. It became apparent to me when I found myself arguing with left wingers in the party more than I was with Republicans. I'm tired of it. What we may see in this election cycle is the second wave of "Reagan Democrats" leaving the party. I was too young to ride the first wave, but this time I'll be on board.

How does opposition to the Iraq war have any relevance to 'Left' or 'Right'? I and many other vehement opponents of the Iraq misadventure firmly believe in aggressive counter-terrorist activities intelligently thought out and relentlessly pursued.

Please note however the word 'intelligent'. We failed to address the chaos in Afghanistan before Rumsfeld began pulling troops out to invade Iraq. Saddam was a despicable despot, but he ranked way down the list of imminent threats to the US, and had been an effective counterpoise to Iranian attempts to expand influence throughout the Middle East. Now Afghanistan is a mess that desperately requires more troops and policy focus, and McCain is talking about US forces remaining in Iraq for 100 years. Barack nailed it: Most of us aren't against wars, we're against stupid wars, and Joe Lieberman has been at the head of the marching and chowder society that got us into this mess.

Now, to Joe. He is a sanctimonious prig who gets enormous psychological satisfaction from playing against type, berating his nominal allies for their misdeeds and saying nothing critical about the party that adamantly opposes the values and policies he claims to support. His silence in the face of the barbaric attacks on John Murtha - a man who served in Viet Nam while Joe was pursuing an education - tells me all I need to know about Joe's character. I don't need to hear about Murtha's political machinations - I agree, he was down there in the trough with the rest of the gang, but as a combat veteran, he had the courage to say that Iraq was a misbegotten mess, and he was slandered by the war hawks for his trouble. When he could have used some words of encouragement, not a peep from Joe.

If there's a compelling reason to hope for substantial Democratic gains in the Senate, one of the foremost is to see Joe stripped of his committee assignments and sent to the back row, where he can mouth his sanctimonious rants to his heart's content.

Elvisberg wrote:

"What did he say that was racist?"

Okay.

The words of Jeremiah Wright:

"Whites, in a culture of white supremacy, however, did not view us as equals and still do not view us as equals;" He's talking about today, if you can't tell that's racist, no proof will suffice for you.

But I will continue to quote the racist words of the Fred Phelps of African-Americana--Obama's favorite preacherman of 20 plus years--Jeremiah Wright.

"White supremacy controls the economic system in America, the healthcare system in America and the educational system in America. Hurricane Katrina has pulled the blinders off of all Americans and shown us what white supremacy means at its ugly core and what it has done to the fabric of these “still-yet-to-be-United States”"

Or.

"The misuse of that term ignores the fact that Africans do not control the military, the police, the legal structure or any of the means to enforce their race prejudice."

To think they should control any such thing is racist, or that lacking such control means African-Americans cannot be racist is in and of itself racist.

And then there's:





“The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color.”

No it didn't and thinking it and saying it out loud makes his statements racist.

The United States does not have a truly "left wing" party. We have a "center right" party and a "right wing" party.

at_david is correct in pointing out how the voting will go in November. Neither Obama or Clinton will be able to beat McCain. My guess is that on election day a small, but significant, number of traditionally Democrat voters, when faced with a ACTUAL VOTE for the PRESIDENCY will feel they are unable to mark the ballot for either a Black Man or a White Woman. Take off 3-5% of what ever the final polling numbers are for either Hilary or Barack.

When any politician tells you he wants to take money out of politics, remember that he wouldn't be saying that unless he had a loophole in mind. It's contrary to the nature of the beast.

This is why I can't support McCain. If he believed that McCain-Feingold would do any good, he can't be very bright. All it has done for Democrats is hand over the power to those who can afford to create and fund 527 Organizations, while weakening the party itself.

Elvisberg, surely you jest! You don't understand the term racist? I bet when someone says something derogatory against a person of color, you understand that it is a racist statement. Why do you not understand it when someone of color says it against whites? But the worst of Wright's diatribe was GodDamnAmerica. If his African church is so much for Africa, the mother continent, and so against America where he lives and works, then I will buy him a one way ticket to go to Africa and make us both happy!

this election should have been a slam dunk for the dems.Because of the shift to the far left,ten to fifeteen percent of dems. will vote for Macain.My parents are in their sevevties and always vote democratic,but not this year.I have always voted republican since 1980.Democrats are their own worst enemy,If they could nominate a candidate who was not so far left, they would win in a landslide.

this election should have been a slam dunk for the dems.Because of the shift to the far left,ten to fifeteen percent of dems. will vote for Macain.My parents are in their sevevties and always vote democratic,but not this year.I have always voted republican since 1980.Democrats are their own worst enemy,If they could nominate a candidate who was not so far left, they would win in a landslide.

this election should have been a slam dunk for the dems.Because of the shift to the far left,ten to fifeteen percent of dems. will vote for Macain.My parents are in their sevevties and always vote democratic,but not this year.I have always voted republican since 1980.Democrats are their own worst enemy,If they could nominate a candidate who was not so far left, they would win in a landslide.