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Obama and the Right

19 Mar 2008 10:42 am

Andrew argues that the dismissive reactions to Obama's speech from the right are "palpably fueled by fear and racism." That's unfair and unfounded: As I suggested yesterday in detailing my own qualms about the speech, they're palpably fueled by the fact that Obama is a liberal. The conservative idea of a candidate who's "transformational" on race is someone who sounds like Bill Cosby and works with Ward Connerly, and that just isn't what Obama's doing; hence the Right's disappointment, which in many cases is curdling into dismissiveness and outright dislike. Instead, Obama's trying to be a transformational figure on the following two counts: First, as John McWhorter suggests in his response to the speech, he's trying to free African-American politics from the vise grip of grievance and resentment, breaking away not only from the Sharptons and Jacksons but from the NAACP line of Julian Bond and Kweise Mfume as well, and bringing black Americans out of racialism and radicalism and into the liberal mainstream; at the same time, he's trying to bring the country, which has heretofore tilted right, into the center-left mainstream as well. (The latter achievement, obviously, depends on the former, which is why the Wright affair is potentially so damaging: It calls into question his promise as a new kind of a black politician, without which his hope to be a new kind of American politician more or less collapses.)

It's been noted before before, but to understand the Right's mounting disappointment with his candidacy it's worth pointing out again that in his attempt to bring new voters into the Democratic tent, Obama's rightward outreach is primarily stylistic rather than substantive. He's making a bet that the country is already moving left, and that by taking an unusually respectful (by liberal standards) approach to the ideas and grievances that pushed an earlier generation to the right he can win many of them, and their children, back to the liberalism that once dominated American politics. As everyone from Rod Dreher to Mickey Kaus to Steve Sailer have noted, his practical concessions to present-day conservatism are vanishingly small. But he isn't trying to win over the gang at the Corner, or movement conservatives more generally; he's trying to win over those voters (and writers) who sometimes think that conservatives make a lot of sense, but whose ideological commitments are ultimately malleable. So of course if you're an ideological conservative you don't like what you hear from him; he's talking to everybody else, but not to you.

Comments (157)

Sooner or later, you and other conservatives are going to have to stop dancing and start answering the question of whether or not you actually believe that black people have been uniquely marginalized and discriminated against in this country, and continue to face those things, or not. I mean I read the Corner and the tend to say "Yes, yes, of course America's history on race is awful, but...", and I read what you have to say here. But I can't really judge the "buts" because I don't believe you really think that black people have been discriminated against. I suspect that you say those things because you feel as if you have to. And we can't have the discussion until you're honest about how you really think towards the issue of black oppression in America.

I mean I am very tired of reading things like the above, because they seem to ignore or trivialize the question of whether black people have good reason to feel grievance or resentment towards their position in American political and social life. All this talk of politics and elections and practicality, the focus on how people think and feel about race and what that means for a presidential election, ignores the question of the truth and legitimacy of those feelings. Somewhere the discussion has to turn to whether you or the gang at the Corner or conservatives writ large actually think that this country has a dispiriting and terrible racial history or not. But when I'm assured that you do, over and over again, in a way that seems purposefully insincere or belittling--when the manner of how you assert that thing undercuts what you're asserting-0 I don't know how to proceed.

Shorter Ross Douthat: conservatives who criticize Obama aren't motivated by racism and fear, they are merely motivated by fear.

Okay, overly snarky. And I agree that (most of) the criticism probably isn't motivated by racism. But some on, let's not miss the forest for the trees: there is a world of difference between, say, Ross' appreciation of the speech, tempered by reservations, and the really over the top and mean spirited criticisms of most conservatives. I mean, most of the response at the corner was down right silly.

And it is true that Obama has gotten much more criticism of his views on race than have white politicians with similar views. There may be (probably are) reasons other than racism for this, but still it suggests a disturbing double standard.

As a conservative, I agree, LarryM, with the characterization of criticism at the Corner as "really over the top and mean spirited." Unfortunately, that characterizes much of so-called conservative discourse these days, from Coulter to Limbaugh. It's enough to make this old-school conservative want to retch.

The problem with Andrew's criticism is that it treats this mean-spiritedness (see his reader's reference to Ingraham), which has been directed at every major Democratic politician since Clinton, as racially motivated for no other reason than that Obama is black. And that, quite simply, betrays the promise that even I, as a conservative who disagrees with Obama on just about every matter of substance, saw in the Obama campaign. What particularly galls me is that Andrew doesn't even bother to cite the language he finds offensive - in other words, he's employing the trick of the most extreme partisans of right and left by lobbing assaults against the nebulous motives of his ideological opponents, for which accusations he is able to provide no support. It's as disgusting, vile, and suppressive of rational political discourse as anything spewed from Ann Coulter's mouth.

Ross, these posts are increasingly pathetic. You really have lost it. Citing Mickey Kaus?

Again, I would suggest you take a deep breath and get back to telling us why banning gay marriage will buttress middle class wages. I'm really looking forward to the comparative statics proof.

The country has heretofore tilted to the right? That's just b.s. and Ross either knows it or should.

Poll after poll shows that a majority of Americans agree with the left on nearly every issue, from health care to the economy. That's why the right has relied on the few niche issues it has for so many years. The right is falling apart because they are out of step with Americans and have been for a long time.

That Bush was re-elected and their losses in 2006 weren't greater is a testament to the power of marketing and nothing more.

Thanks Ross. Just because Obama gives a great speech, doesn't mean we have to bow down on substance.

I'm much more centrist than conservative, but am trying to pay attention to content as well.

There are plenty of people who go to church on Sunday and hear someone talk about God and being a better person of faith. There are even plenty of African Americans who worship that way.

It is neither hateful nor racist to ask why a person would attend a church where there is a lot fo crazy political talk instead of, you know, religion.

I may vote for Obama, but I am worried about his liberal streak.

Back to politics, it was a good enough speech to get him to the convention in very good shape. Thats how its a winner.

My problem with Ross' argument stems from the fact that the Right claims intellectual purity on the public front (TV), but plays in the mud and seems to relish it in other venues (internet, talk radio).

These conservatives say: we don't like Obama because he is liberal. But they do nothing when the extreme elements under the Republican tent smear him for being: Muslim, the anti-Christ, a racist, et cetera, and speak in dog whistle politics which only serves to remind listeners that he is one of "them" (black) as opposed to one of "us" (American).

Ross is, like Andrew, appreciates the ideological framework of conservatism, but when they are noticeably silent on how their side benefits from violently underhanded tactics steeped in racist, or xenophobic fears, they lose credibility.

SavageView,
Micky Kaus is at least somewhat understandable...Steve Sailer, on the other hand, is not.

Ross, you're better than that. There are plenty of interesting and fair-minded conservatives whom you could site but you go in and use the race baiting Sailer to prove your point?

Yikes.

And, oh yeah...I generally agree with almost everyone else in the comments so far.

Obama vs. Connerly

Obama doesn’t fully embrace the views of Connerly, but evidence suggests he doesn’t exactly tow the party line. A reference to an interview with Stephanopoulos reveals a more nuanced view:

"Obama has repeatedly gone on record as a supporter of affirmative action. But "if we have done what needs to be done to ensure that kids who are qualified to go to college can afford it," he said in the ABC interview, then "affirmative action becomes a diminishing tool for us to achieve racial equality in this society."

[He seemed to side with those who think class predominates when he said, "I think that we should take into account white kids who have been disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to have what it takes to succeed."]

I think it’s fair to say that Obama is less concerned about widening the scope of affirmative action, and more so in expanding the opportunities for poor kids to afford college, which is a more centrist position (He advocates tuition tax credits, simplifying the financial aid process, and more). He doesn’t reject affirmative action, and perhaps he should, but I think he takes a more centrist view than Ross acknowledges.

Obama vs. Cosby

Obama hasn’t gone out of his way to criticize the black community on issues like crime and education the way Cosby has. But he has on more than one occasion talked about the need for parents to be more involved in their childrens' education (a central Cosby theme), and he has actually worked as a community organizer to improve living conditions in poor neighborhoods plagued with crime and high unemployment (two more Cosby themes). So I think it’s a bit unfair, Ross, to characterize Obama as the anti-Cosby, when his record shows otherwise.

"The conservative idea of a candidate who's "transformational" on race is someone who sounds like Bill Cosby and works with Ward Connerly,"

This conservative view of race is motivated by, well shucks, racism.

Ross,
The conservative agenda you cite here is essentially about a narrower topic than the speech Sen. Obama has delivered. It’s quite an apolitical program, focusing on how marginalized people need to change—a remarkably shallow response to the questions raised by this debate. The point is not to deny that this perspective has some merit, even importance, on its own terms, but it’s a myopic and facile vision that hardly deserves the appellation “transformation.”

It may change individuals whom it reaches, but the system, and those too caught up in it to encounter or be persuaded by this perspective, will not be changed. Further, even the successes of this agenda of moral instruction will have to struggle more than they ought, and more than many of their fellow citizens ever did, in a conservative socioeconomic system and an in-some-ways conservative culture that offer them little support. A self-sufficiency depending on unacknowledged asceticism and that only allows scraping by is a poor measure of freedom. Lives of pain, chaos, and deprivation are thus too convenient a foil for conservatives, who seem not to realize that escaping terrible fates does not mean one lives in a supportive community. Tp create one (only partly through government), for vulnerable people and for everyone else, is part of what many of us on the left think “transformation” is supposed to mean.

If that was a "liberal" speech about race in America rather than a "conservative" speech about race in America, then conservatives are on the wrong side of history. And by wrong side of history I mean the wrong side if 1964.

And the notion that that speech was stylistic instead of substantive is ridiculous. It became substantive when he chose to tackle the issue head on rather than to duck away or simply throw Wright under the bus or take the easy way out. Stylistic would have been some Clintonian parsing of terms to try and appease everyone without doing anything. Instead of giving sound bits, he gave, you know, SUBSTANCE.

Conservatives have a ridiculously troubled history with race, and clearly you all are continuing to duck and hide on this one, crying reverse racism, saying an honest speech is a "liberal" speech, anything to hide your uncomfortablenesses. If you were honest, as Obama is, you would address that troubled history -- but instead it's easier to hide behind labels like "liberal" and "style over substance." And that's just obfuscatory and cowardly.

I found Obama's speech to be magnificent, and at the same time I'm pretty sure his politics are simply wrong. Too bad he's running for the highest political office in the land; otherwise, I would be a huge supporter.

I have to say that I worry a bit. Everyone has fallen into the trap of treating Obama's candidacy as the measurement of race relations in the country (Andrew Sullivan, I'm looking at you). Worse, because we've gotten to the point where his candidacy is simply assumed to be a mirror into our soul, it's now an unavoidable fact that an Obama loss will amplify racial animus just because.

I have to say that I'm pretty indignant that the media gatekeepers have put us in this situation. Rather than politics, politicians and issues, I now must take into account the more fundamental questions of cohesion, disorder, and the affecting perceptions of injustice which may or may not infect a generation of my fellow citizens.

Thanks guys, really; now, if Obama loses, no matter why he loses, we are all going to lose in a fundamental, pre-political way.

On racial forgiveness, it's now Obama or bust. I'd say screw it and vote on politics, but I'm increasingly doubtful that it would be the wise thing to do.

And one last point, the narrative has successfully been woven in the press that Rev. Wright is a racist, that his entire history of preaching was hate.

It's a politically convenient story to tell when the Right wants to "darken" Obama up. But I ask you: we have seen 3-4 clips of 36 years on the pulpit...how many sermons did these clips draw from, 2?

It is disingenuous for people who hadn't heard of Rev. Wright two months ago to come on TV or blogs and profess to be able to speak with authority on the nature of his sermoning for over 36 years.

Obama said he wasn't in church when those clips on TV were said. You can believe him or not, that is your choice.

Obama said he knew Wright was a fiery orator, but that he also knew Wright NOT to be the bigot and racist he's being depicted on TV. You can believe him or not, but if not, do not go out there and profess to know this man based on 3 youtube clips, because that is entirely disingenuous.

I don't believe you really think that black people have been discriminated against

I'm sure there are some idiots at the Corner or somewhere (under a rock) who really don't think so. Ross, and most conservatives of interest, obviously know that black people have been discriminated against. Slavery was a terrible evil, and conservatives, when they speak beyond the contemporary moment, often use the Biblical language of Lincoln and speak in terms of America's original sin. The problem is that asking what's changed since 1950, or looking at the contemporary sources of some of the ills plaguing the black community seems to make some people assume you "don't really think that black people have been discriminated against." Bill Cosby is presumbly well aware black people have been discriminated against, and is (last I heard) a Kucinich man -- but the things that seem to inspire some of this doubt about our belief are not very far from a lot of what he's saying.

This is a problematic tactic, and I guess it happens on the right too -- when conservatives say "Yes, X happened, and still happens (but to a much much much much lesser extent, by orders of magnitude, and Y is a bigger problem now, and Z won't fix Y (or even X)", liberals sometimes hear "X isn't a real problem." Because the statement doesn't spend all its money on emoting about the badness of X, it's assumed that granting X is just a lie. I suppose that SOME pro-choice people actually mean it when they say abortion is horrible and awful and even that they think it's murder (which the Catholic politicians tend to grudgingly and half-heartedly do), but given that their policy preferences are almost always for increasing abortion and leaving it as unrestricted as possible, even when the restrictions are popular -- well, I mostly think they are lying through their teeth. But there is a difference here -- conservatives are arguing (for the most part) about means, not ends, these days, on this point. We'd like to improve the lot of black Americans too, we just don't think Obama's political program's going to do that at all. His election might do something useful; his policies will make things worse, if we had to guess.

Poll after poll shows that a majority of Americans agree with the left on nearly every issue, from health care to the economy.

The country agrees with "the left" (moderately, while tax rates are low) on a host of bread and butter economics issues. That's true -- though jack up tax rates or put those programs in place and some of that will change. However, social and moral issues aren't "niches" -- the "what's the matter with Kansas" argument is an insulting pseudo-Marxist piece of propaganda that works by claiming mass false consciousness.

JA-

I'd agree with you that some of the rhetoric about the speech is overblown (Andrew Sullivan is not exactly known for his restraint), but I also don't think his speech should be easily dismissed either, simply because one doesn't agree with his politics.

I guess I'd ask one question: When was the last time race was directly, honestly, and meaningfully addressed by a public figure in this country? When was the last time someone described actual, existing problems and articulated a vision for overcoming those problems? Certainly not during my lifetime.

Now, it's not that I'm expecting everyone to vote for Obama, and everyone will have their own rational decisions. And maybe it's naive of me to want to separate the speech from the political race -- clearly they're inextricable. But until conservatives actually meaningfully articulate these problems, instead of abetting them, and until they actually articulate a way forward, instead of keeping us in the past, I think they're ceding this ground to Obama. And they should step aside gracefully.

@ Freddie:

Sure, grievance or anger are a legitimate emotional response to the racial history of the US, but how an individual acts out on that very understandable grievance or anger makes all the difference. Some of that anger and grievance, acted out in negative ways, hurts the very community that is meant to be helped. Say, furthering conspiracy theories about AIDS by pastors such as Wright and Obama's rationalizing such behavior by Wright's experiences in a more racist past.

I see now that for Obama personal responsibility will play not even one small part in his grandiose verbal plans for healing our nation of it's racial and economic ills, and instead, it is all to be feelings, emotions, grievance, the correct narrative, and large social programs. I simply don't agree.

Also, the leftism I am supposed to embrace as a sort of racial salve only leads to economic policies which hurt poor inner city black communities. Why would you want to open up any business in that community if you are going to be treated as the enemy? I see it here in Chicago all the time. When a city Wal-Mart opened up, the usual actors were out in force against it, but thousands applied for only a few hundred jobs. How sad. No, I don't think Wal-Mart is the answer, but it's clear the Chicago-Dem machine isn't either.

As I suggested yesterday in detailing my own qualms about the speech, they're palpably fueled by the fact that Obama is a liberal.

And since liberals hate America, Obama does too. The most you argument says is that the Cornerites aren't any more hydrophobic about Obama than they would be about a white man. Is that really the strongest defense you can make of them? If so, perhaps you need to find some new playmates.

Great post, Ross.

Freddie,

See Sailer's posts on Michelle Obama. Her sense of resentment isn't due to America's legacy of slavery but due to her being the recipient of Affirmative Action. This is one of the problems with the liberal approach to race in America: yo advocate policies which increase the feelings of resentment among blacks. Another problem is that America isn't simply a black and white country: Americans come in many shades and flavors, and most are the descendants of immigrants that came here long after abolition and had no role in Jim Crow segregation. The endless grievances from black Americans have limited appeal for them.

Wow ... Wright is clearly an anti-American racist and anyone who denies that is clearly lying to himself ...
That said I am not afraid of Mr. Wrights "blame whitey, get whitey" nonsense, I have the Second Amendment to protect myself from the final solution he would certainly wish up many Americans of pallor.
I know I am not a racist, I know Wright is, I'm just not sure about Obama. In the end he is an anti-American socialist victim pimp and that is why I'll not vote for him.

Who would have thought that 20 years of faithful church attendance would hurt your chances to be president?

The lesson: If you want to be president, better go to the right church!

Mike ?
"And since liberals hate America, Obama does too."

Why is it you progressives always put words in peoples mouths just so you can shoot down those strawmen ?

Does it really make you feel better about yourself ?

You are simply an ignorant fool trying to scream shut up to ideas that you can't refute.

Do you really want to defend Wright ? Do you want to stand by that G*d Damn America, Chickens Come Home to Roost, US Govt created AIDS to kill blacks piece of intellectual garbage ?

Please say yes ... so we can ignore your nonsense as the weak intellectual tea that it is ...

but when they are noticeably silent on how their side benefits from violently underhanded tactics steeped in racist, or xenophobic fears, they lose credibility.

You think people on the left ever lose credibility with us when they play on lies and insults about how racist every conservative is, or how there's no compassion if you don't agree with their _means_ for bettering the lives of the poor?

Herb,

so someone going to Hagee's church for 20 years would be ok with you ?

Really ?

quit bringing a pen-knife to the intellectual gun fight ...

fish in a barrel ...

Marquise,
The basic dynamic with regard to social/cultural issues in this nation, as many conservatives themselves have stated, is that the left has "won" the cultural war on the streets - whatever people SAY they want, by and large what they demonstrate by how they life their lives is that most (not by any means all) people want a broadly secular culture with (for example, though not germane to the current thread) few restrictions on sexual autonomy.

Now, that's not the WHOLE story, of course. In part as a REACTION to that victory, many social issues do have a lot of political salience. And on some (not all, by any means) "social issues" there is majority support for the "socially conservative" position. (But even there, plenty of people who, while suspicious of the Democrats on social issues, are equally distressed by what they perceive (correctly IMO) as the extreme position of the "religious right." I mean, there ARE a good number of social conservatives who really do want to return to a more traditional view of women's roles in society. That POV doesn't get anywhere near majority support.)

Of course, with regard to race, the dynamic is more complex. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the center of gravity of public opinion is a bit to the right of the sensibility displayed in Obama's speech (I'm not sure that it is, but it may be). But that majority, if it exists, consists of a combination of (1) people like the Marquise, and Ross, who genuinely believe that mainstream liberal policy prescriptions regarding race are a counter productive way of dealing with our very real history of racism, (2) a fair number of racists, and (3) people who aren't racists, but don't have any genuine interest in dealing with the historic legacy of racism, and who are happy to use people in groups one and (especially) two to build a political coalition to acheive other ends.

I have no problem with the notion that there can and should be a dialog between people in category one and people with a more traditional "liberal" attitude on race. And, say what you will regarding Obama, but all indications are that he would welcome that dialog.

But pardon me for not having much time for people in categories two and three.

Fred,
It's worth pointing out that the last two sentences of your post contain ideas that were explicitly mentioned in Obama's speech.

One question I have, in general, is where the meme that Michelle Obama is seething with resentment comes from. Does it come from her one line about being proud to be an American for the first time? If there's more than that, please share it as I've missed it (I'm not being snarky, I'm really not aware of anything else). If there's not more than that, is it really fair to completely assume you understand a person from one thing they've said? It would be as if we were to assume that McCain is a doddering ignoramus because of his repeated comments that Iran is training Al Qaeda. (Note: I don't think McCain is a doddering ignoramus.)

LarryM,

I'm sure Obama would talk to category one people, but the fact that Obama clearly supports and has conversations with people in categories 2 and 3 and has for nearly 20 years makes his category one conversations meaningless ...

nice try ... Wright is a racist anti-American, Obama supports him verbally and economically ...
Obama therefore enables a racist in my book ...

It is not guilt by association, it is guilt by endorsement, both verbal and in the form of checks ...

"I am not afraid of Mr. Wrights "blame whitey, get whitey" nonsense, I have the Second Amendment to protect myself from the final solution he would certainly wish up many Americans of pallor.
. . .
I know I am not a racist, I know Wright is, I'm just not sure about Obama. In the end he is an anti-American socialist victim pimp"

I just hope this is satire. Otherwise, I weep.

This is one of the problems with the liberal approach to race in America: yo advocate policies which increase the feelings of resentment among blacks.

Conservatives are failing to represent the full perspective of Obama's views on race and affirmative action.

The following is the Cosby-perspective Ross is looking for from Obama. Obama told "Any solution to our unemployment catastrophe must arise from us working creatively within a multicultural, interdependent, and international economy. Any African-Americans who are only talking about racism as a barrier to our success are seriously misled if they don't also come to grips with the larger economic forces that are creating economic insecurity for all workers--whites, Latinos, and Asians."

Joe,

your ignorance about AQ and Iran is showing ... McCain is not the one looking like an idiot here ...

Jeff-

lol. Here's $5. You're a good guy. Now you're a liberal. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION. Both verbal and in cash.

Jeff,
Given that McCain has restated himself and admitted he got it wrong, I guess i have good company.

Joe,

read ...

http://www.meforum.org/article/670

please don't forget to load your gun next time you jump into a fight ...

how can we get past this country's racial wounds when black leaders like Barak Obama won't apologize for the shabby way they've treated whites in this country? All that anger! I mean black racism against whites is just as bad white racism, right?

Let's be honest, the Corner kids write for a magazine that was founded upon upholding the principle and practice of white supremacy, and like true conservatives they have boldly stood athwart history and yelled "stop", and not changed one iota since the golden age of Buckley's writing about "the advanced race's" right to "to impose superior mores" upon the "backward" negro race.

I really try to believe thoughful writers on the right like Ross who again and again claim how unfair it is to tar conservatives as racists or mysoginists, but in the next sentence he claims the test for meeting racial correctness on the right is how well said person appeals to the paranoia of certified lunatics like a Steve Sailer or a Rod Dreher (Why wasn't Robert Stacy McCain consulted on this?) All it takes is a brief stroll through the comments on this or any "mainstream" right-wing blog regarding the Wright/Obama affair to realize just how far the Right was come since the heydey of Jim Crow, which is to say not far at all. (Blacks are always crying victim! its so unfair!)The National Review believed in White Supremacy then, and it does now.

Is it just me or is Ross completely out of touch and foolish when writing on race?

dear leader nyc

so all conservatives are racist ? what about Condi ?

come on, don't you know one conservative who's not a racist ?

come on, think ...

pin head ...

Marquis,

And Jeff comes along to reinforce my point. For every sincere conservative making honest and nuanced arguments about race, you get someone like Jeff coming along and ruining your credibility.

How Insane ...

continue to do that for 20 years and then maybe you can claim I'm a liberal via endorsement ...

otherwise I think you proved my point ...

Why is it you progressives always put words in peoples mouths just so you can shoot down those strawmen ?

Speaking of strawmen...

How Insane ...

since you clearly don't think I'm a good guy ... and you actually didn't send me any money I'm not sure I'm eligible to be considered a liberal via association or endorsement ...

:(

nice try ... Wright is a racist anti-American, Obama supports him verbally and economically ...
Obama therefore enables a racist in my book

Speaking of strawmen...

Sooner or later, you and other conservatives are going to have to stop dancing and start answering the question of whether or not you actually believe that black people have been uniquely marginalized and discriminated against in this country,

Yes. Who has said otherwise?


and continue to face those things, or not.

It is doubtful contemporary racial discrimination has been of much consequence during the last thirty-five years. Thomas Sowell has been saying this for decades and Edward Banfield was saying it before that. Who has been evasive on this question?

There is a different problem blacks face: the quality of certain public goods (law enforcement, schooling) is quite poor in inner-city slums. How to improve them can be a vexed question, most particularly because doing so would injure certain vested interests (e.g. public employee unions).

your ignorance about AQ and Iran is showing ... McCain is not the one looking like an idiot here

Speaking of flat-out ignorance...

Um. . .Jeff, you do know that the article you linked to discusses a potential Iranian role in 9/11, not in training AQI today, right? You do know that McCain corrected his comments about Iran training AQI, right?

Leaving aside your heated ad hominem rhetoric, the reason I asked the question was because I was trying to find further evidence of Michelle Obama's anti-American resentment that has been posited as a fact. I asked this question sincerely, and my McCain parallel was meant to be illustrative not accusatory.

If you have further evidence of Michelle Obama's alleged resentment, I would appreciate it. Claims about your supposedly fully loaded intellectual guns doesn't really answer the question.

The underlying issue here is Wright’s following of James Cone’s Afrocentric Black Liberation theology. See Spengler's recent remarks on this The peculiar theology of black liberation , inclding this Cone quote:

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

Wright has been explicit in accepting Cone; its hard to see that Obama, being as bright as he is, does not at least know about this stance, which is clearly at the core of the Trinity Church. In being a member of this church Obama aided his South Side Chicago political career but seriously jeopardized a presidential run.

If John McCain had attended the mirror image of Trinity Church, a right-wing one with a minister who followed David Duke’s view, he would have been long ago properly made burnt toast by the media and people. McCain might argue that he was highly critical of his ministers, which would have gone over like a lead balloon with the public.

LarryM,

you want nuance ... like all conservatives are racists ? oh, sorry thats liberal nuance ...

So apparently you don't like the nuance that Obama supports a racist and supports those who use racism for their own cynical benefit.

Please explain to me the nuance in G*d Damn America ?

And please don't go trying to smear any of the other commentators with what I said ...

Jeff,

I didn't say all conservatives are racists, just the ones and write for the National Review.

Read. nitwit. Or perhaps you'd just like to enlighten me as to how Steve Sailer is merely a "racial realist" and not a psuedo-scientific crank peddling the 21st century equivelent of phrenology.

Gigs up boys!

It's no use denying it. We knew this day would come. One day, the bright, shining light of Truth would find the dark crevices of our souls and reveal the contents to the world we could only deceive for so long.

Curse this relentless seeker of truth! Curse his honesty! Curse his heartache!!

I would damn him to hell, but I don't actually want him spending eternity with us.

Well, OK. I for one am relieved. Living a lie was wearing me down. I'm glad he did it.

It feels so liberating to finally get out of the closet!

Mike ...

Did Douthat say "liberals hate America, so Obama hates America" ...

Nope ... so that is an example of a strawman ...

get it ?

Jeff,

I wasn't talking to you. Please let the adults continue their conversation.

Even conceding all that Ross says . . . Does anyone believe that John "al-Qaeda in Iran" McCain is capable of engaging a difficult issue like race at the intellectual level that Obama did, not to mention personally drafting a speech of that caliber? I'll go ahead and suggest the answer: No.

If you're with me so far . . . I submit, in light of the last 8 years, that you should always favor the candidate most able to understand and grapple the issues a President will face. And you should make that choice even if there is a more ideologically congenial but less competent choice available.

Here, though, the choice for Ross isn't even that difficult. It's not a matter of choosing a candidate better able to handle the job over the candidate he agrees with on a gut-level. Ross doesn't agree with McCain on a gut level! It's a choice between two candidates who will not purse Ross's ideological agenda. Can he honestly favor the dithering old fool over the talented and intelligent liberal?

Dear Leader ...

who the F is Steve Sailer ... I don't remember saying he was "merely a "racial realist"" ...
I don't recall ever saying anything about him ...

you got me though ... had to go look up phrenology ... cool word ...

Do you have a word for the study of determining someones racist tendancies based on their skin color and political leanings ? you know white conservatives = racist ...

Oh, yeah liberal intellectual ...

Obama AGREES with conservatives but they are NOT LISTENING:

He has said:

"African-Americans who are only talking about racism as a barrier to our success are seriously misled..."

"Any solution to our unemployment catastrophe must arise from us working creatively within a multicultural, interdependent, and international economy."

"Now we have to take this same language [as "the right wing, the Christian right]--these same values that are encouraged within our families...[and apply them to a larger society.] Let's talk about creating a society, not just individual families, based on these values..."

I know it's tempting, but painting Obama as a complete leftist-liberal is simply not accurate.

bah, typo patrol:

grapple with* the issues

purse = pursue

Obama has just ended any chance he had of winning the presidency with this speech.

Obama has done well in large measure for pushing a nebulous mantra of change with a strong undertone that said change will specifically move America into a post racial greviance era.

So when it came to light that Obama's spirtual mentor is a raving, conspiratorial racist that would make Sharpton blush, it left a deep injury in Obama's image.

After that he had to distance himself from racialists like Wright as well as he could, and condemn them in no uncertain terms as being beyond the pale.

Instead he gave a speech where he accorded the extremist fringes of the black racialist movement a seat at the table. Sure he said he didn't agree with all of Wright's views, but frankly in according such lunacy any respect he now has conflated himself with them.

Presuming he wins the primary, Democrat voters will be scratching their heads this November unable to understand what happened to their golden boy...

I am intrigued by the overall reluctance of many smarter conservatives to give Obama his complete - and well earned - due for the points he made in his magnificent speech. I think it shows how flummoxed they are by Obama and the threat he represents to them.

It seems to me that "reasonable" conservatives (i.e. non-numbskulls and mudslingers, in which category I'd place Ross D.) have particularly struggled with how to understand Obama. They respect his style, and sense in him something large and potentially transformative. Clearly he's a political force -- but this makes him dangerous given that he is a Democrat. (the numbskull, talk radio folks feel the same way, but as would be predicted are less tentative in resorting right away to the usual slurs and bs we expect from them).

So - if you are a conservative, whaddya do? Stop worrying and learn to love Obama, or hope for some slim reed upon which a "principled" opposition to Obama can be based?

The Wright flap gave Ross and his similarly-situated folks their first break. It allowed them to say, in sober fashion, "wait a minute, this Obama isn't all he pretends to be," even though their whole argument is based on Obama's guilt by association for comments and view points he has otherwise disavowed. (in this regard, Ross has not effectively rebutted comments by Glenn Greenwald and others that conservatives give their own politicians a pass when they associate with Old Testament "God's punishing us for our sins" hoo-ha comments by religious right types, but purport that the Wright situation is "different" due to Obama's membership with the Wright church - again, in spite of Obama's easy-to-grasp comments to the contrary).

Next came the speech. Ross et al. cannot deny the power, effectiveness, and intelligence of it, but they point to it and say "see? he's nothing but a liberal," and suddenly they've got the rationale they've been feeling in the dark for. This will be one of the memes they run with, although the different wings of the Right will handle it differently - the temperate conservatives will express "disappointment" in Obama (i.e. that Gerson op-ed in the Post today), while the fire-breathers will, as always, go further and suggest Obama's a "Black Panther/kill whitey" type.

I think Ross was a lot closer to the truth when he admitted that the whole Obama phenomenon is like a left-wing Reagan. We of course know that, like him or not, Reagan was a force for change in the U.S. and remains a significant touchstone to this day (so much so that the haggiographic Right can't find enough things to name after him). So it must be difficult for conservatives to comprehend the same force coming at them from the other side of the aisle - and seeing it come at them, like a tidal wave . . .

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the center of gravity of public opinion is a bit to the right of the sensibility displayed in Obama's speech (I'm not sure that it is, but it may be)

LarryM, I think you're usually pretty sensible. But when it comes to both policy and feelings, the majority of public opinion is a long long way to the right of Obama here, never mind the public pieties of the commentariat. Steve Sailer (without the math) is closer to a lot of real-world opinion, I think, outside the liberal northeast.

Prior to the revelation that Obama's mentor and advisor is an abject racist, many conservatives had a problem with McCain. After this little dust-up, they will drop their concerns with him and show up at the polls to vote AGAINST Barack Hussein Obama, who they will now rightly perceive as just another grievance-mongering black Democrat. Remember, conservatives are not moved by CBS, CNN, or the New York Times, so these media outlets' spin on Barack's little speech will have no effect on them.

One piece of the puzzle just fell into place for McCain during this last week.

All that remains is to get Obama to speak in specific terms about policy, and a majority of moderates will shift to McCain come November. People simply do not want to tax themselves into oblivion by somebody who lies about his intimate affiliations with racists.

There is an annoying sense of entitlement that oozes from this post. On what grounds should "conservatism" merit any more respect than Obama has granted it? Look at the complete wreckage "conservatives" have made of our country in the last decade.

And I'm trying to figure out why Obama should have to pass some sort of Ward Connerly litmus test for "conservatives" whose commitment to bringing blacks into the political mainstream has been, at best, tepid, and more often disingenuous. What bullshit!

My view is that many people who have traded on precisely the resentments Obama identified in his speech are feeling a little awkward, even threatened, by his remarks. Cue the dismissive sneer, which only reinforces my point.

And Jeff comes along to reinforce my point. For every sincere conservative making honest and nuanced arguments about race, you get someone like Jeff coming along and ruining your credibility.

Well, this is sort of like how Wright ruins the entire left's credibility, no? I mean, the problem is: in some ways, I actually don't mind Wright. He's wrong about many many things, but he's not a fool or a slick operator, I suspect (an Al Sharpton) -- he's a sincere man with some good (and bad) ideas about God and some powerful (and true in many ways) language of self-improvement that appeals in a way to some traditionalist conservatives. But he's a racist, too, I think it's pretty clear. I'm actually glad Obama isn't dropping him, not just beacuse it's a liability in the general election, but because it shows loyalty I partly admire. BUT. Wright's WRONG about a lot of things, in ways that matter -- and while Obama wants to "have dialog" with category 1, I really don't think that Obama's dedication to Wright means he's ever going to give any credit to any policies here other than the most knee-jerk liberalism. In the end, there's no ned to find "some slim reed upon which a 'principled' opposition to Obama can be based" -- the principle opposition for conservatives is that Obama is a (possibly) nice (if, in fact, rather airy and gassy at times) and intelligent liberal, with considerable charisma. A good man to have as a friend, possibly (if you, like myself, don't mind friends who are ambitious and a bit self-absorbed, but intelligent and decent), but a bad President, by our lights. We're not hunting around to find some secret bad thing about Obama. The weird thing is that his occasional forays into indicating he might consider socioeconomic-based "affirmative action" instead of race quotas tolerable somehow convince us to occasionally imagine he's something other than an intelligent and pleasant man with bad ideas. But I guess given recent politics, left and right, likable people with bad ideas look pretty good in the wrong light?

After this little dust-up, they will drop their concerns with him and show up at the polls to vote AGAINST Barack Hussein Obama, who they will now rightly perceive as just another grievance-mongering black Democrat.

At the end of the day, all you've got here is guilt by association--holding Obama accountable for words he did not say and has otherwise disavowed. Nothing about Obama's own conduct could be accurately described as "grievance-mongering." All in all, it's a pretty thin reed to hang a groundswell of opposition on, and not a particularly Christian one.

There is an annoying sense of entitlement that oozes from this post. On what grounds should "conservatism" merit any more respect than Obama has granted it? Look at the complete wreckage "conservatives" have made of our country in the last decade.

Gosh. And after LBJ and Carter, why on earth would anyone have given any respect to any liberal?

I guess we should just make David Broder God-emperor of Doonesbury and call it a day.

Ronald Reagan showed himself to be a deliberate, calculating racist when he talked about "welfare queens with Cadillacs." Ross Douthat worships Ronald Reagan, and when he issued his own denunciation of a poor black woman as a "welfare duchess" because she had a large TV, he was accepting his place in the Giant Repiglican Hate Machine.

Here's a guarantee. If Obama is the Dem nominee, this campaign will be as ugly as any in American history. The Giant Repiglican Hate Machine will be in overdrive, from the idiots on talk radio all the way up to the "intellectual" leaders like Ross and Jonah and Bloody Billy Kristol. No matter how vicious it gets as far as sliming Obama as an America-hating Muslim plant, none of these people will see anything amiss. Oh, they may (disingenuously) point to a comment or two along the way as "going too far," but they'll be sniggering as they do it.

Yeah, the right will be doing a whole lot of sniggering n this campaign, if you know what I mean and I think you do. Snigger this, snigger that. It will be one big sniggerfest on Fox and at the National Review and on Limbaugh, Savage, and all of the other hate-filled venues the wingnuts have at their disposal.

If it works for them, then GOD DAMN AMERICA. And I don't even believe in god. But if this sort of shameful crap still works in this country in 2008 then we should be deeply ashamed of ourselves.

Those of us who are still capable of such shame, that is. I'm not sure that Repiglicans - who are now the party of torture, after all - are now anything but cheerleaders for evil, stupid bastards.

You wrote: It calls into question his promise as a new kind of a black politician, without which his hope to be a new kind of American politician more or less collapses.)

Sen. Obama has never promised to be a new kind of black politician. He promised to pursue a new kind of politics, one that rose above the bitter divisiveness of the past. The media (and obviously people like you) labeled him a new kind of black politician different from Jackson and Sharpton.

"Instead he gave a speech where he accorded the extremist fringes of the black racialist movement a seat at the table."

Here's thing: what are we supposed to do with racists, black or white? Are we to shun, and allow their resentment and hate to fester under cover of their rejection? Or do we attempt to bring those folks back into the fold, reject those racist statements, and attempt to address the roots of those sentiments?

I don't know the answer, and I am pretty sure no one else does either. As a society, we have been officially shunning racism and talk of race for decades now and yet racism still exists in strength at the fringes and just under the surface, as this whole ordeal has demonstrated. It may be that you can never eliminate racism, since ideas can never be destroyed, merely marginalized.

It's funny that TMoC is so out of touch that he thinks David Broder - one of the worst apologists for the Bushpig Regime - has some sort of liberal credentials left. Amazing.

From Andrew, this Huckabee quote is worth posting here. I'm no longer surprised when 99% of conservatives take the swill their leaders give them at face value, because I've been paying attention to conservatives for the past couple of decades. But at least Mike Huckabee, for all of his faults, isn't a complete idiot:

"[Y]ou can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do. It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what ... Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable, years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that...

As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack — and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you — we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names..."

At the end of the day, all you've got here is guilt by association--holding Obama accountable for words he did not say and has otherwise disavowed.

People will decided for themselves whether this association matters to them, or in the context of my last post, CONSERVATIVES and MODERATES will decide if it matters. You are a Democrat; you are entirely irrelevant to the November election because nothing will ever keep you from voting for a Democrat. You are already factored into the equation, so what you believe really doesn’t matter one iota (assuming you’re a Democrat).

Nothing about Obama's own conduct could be accurately described as "grievance-mongering."

You mean, besides attending a grievance-mongering black theology church for 20 years, whose racist pastor you’ve stated has been extremely prominent in your moral and spiritual development.

Speaking of thin reeds ....

All in all, it's a pretty thin reed to hang a groundswell of opposition on, and not a particularly Christian one.

I am agnostic, not Christian, although I’d just add that I am not an anti-Christian bigot (i.e., I am not a postmodern liberal). (Interesting, however, that you would assume I was Christian. Mmmm ...) Once again, what Democrats and liberals think about this matter is completely irrelevant. Barack’s long, intimate association with a black racist has ensured that conservatives will show up November. Now all that’s left is for him to recite an endless litany of liberal policy shibboleths and he will lose the majority of moderates.

I’m feeling better about this election every day ....

Freddie, are you still reading this thread?

In response to your question:

"Sooner or later, you and other conservatives are going to have to stop dancing and start answering the question of whether or not you actually believe that black people have been uniquely marginalized and discriminated against in this country, and continue to face those things, or not."

I think the answer is complex.

1) I think most conservatives think that the answer to your question is yes.

2) My guess is that most conservatives think that the amount of improvement over time is much greated than most liberals think it is.

3) Being conservatives, they are distrustful of state programs to ameliorate the remaining problem. I agree that they don't have many good alternatives to state programs, but to a conservative, the absense of any active alternative doesn't mean that government intervention > inaction.

David Broder - one of the worst apologists for the Bushpig Regime - has some sort of liberal credentials left. Amazing.

Oh heavens no. Broder has no credentials, left or right. He's precisely the kind of brain-dead insider centrism without a compass of any kind you'd get if you decided that Bush invalidates all conservative programmes and ideas because he's (1) from the more conservative party and (2) ostensibly (though seldom in much practice) had a "conservative" program but ALSO that LBJ + Carter invalidates liberalism. That is, LBJ and Carter screwed up the country in a huge number of ways, so liberalism is clearly all junk, and conservatism is clearly junk because Bush was an awful president. So I guess we're left with Broderism, or something.

Catalonia writes: "Once again, what Democrats and liberals think about this matter is completely irrelevant. Barack’s long, intimate association with a black racist has ensured that conservatives will show up November. Now all that’s left is for him to recite an endless litany of liberal policy shibboleths and he will lose the majority of moderates."

It's conservatives who won't matter in this election, chuckles. Few of them were ever going to vote for Obama - or Hillary, for that matter.

The long association of conservatives with an admittedly racist party - the GOP - hasn't seemed to dim their luster in your eyes. And yes, Lee Atwater and Ken Mehlman both admitted the GOP was deliberately racist, so deal with it or continue lying to yourself.

Wright's damning of America was no different from what countless numbers of wingnut theologians do every single Sunday, but few conservatives have a problem with that. America-hating scumbags like Falwell and Robertson were elbow-deep in the intestines of the Reagan administration and both Bush administrations, but how many cons expressed any reservations about that?

The silence was deafening.

I do think less of Obama due to his association with this church, but that's not nearly enough to close the gap between him and John McCain, who threw away his principles and learned to love torture and maggots like Hagee and Falwell.

It's laughable to read people try and assert this is simply guilt-by-association, as though Wright is just some guy Obama knows. Below is an excerpt from Rolling Stone, that bastion of conservative thought, talking about the depth of the "association." Before posting that, though, one very important thing is not being discussed here, and that's the perversion of the pulpit in this church by "preaching" politics, yet that is close to the primary focus of this church and many like it, particularly those adhering to black liberation theology. Why would we elect a man to be President who is a member of such a church? Also, the leftists here keep decrying the racism of The Corner, yet I haven't seen a single example of this racism cited.

"Wright takes the pulpit here one Sunday and solemnly, sonorously declares that he will recite ten essential facts about the United States. "Fact number one: We've got more black men in prison than there are in college," he intones. "Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!" There is thumping applause; Wright has a cadence and power that make Obama sound like John Kerry. Now the reverend begins to preach. "We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. . . . We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. . . . We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. . . . We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!" The crowd whoops and amens as Wright builds to his climax: "And. And. And! GAWD! Has GOT! To be SICK! OF THIS SHIT!"

"This is as openly radical a background as any significant American political figure has ever emerged from, as much Malcolm X as Martin Luther King Jr. Wright is not an incidental figure in Obama's life, or his politics. The senator "affirmed" his Christian faith in this church; he uses Wright as a "sounding board" to "make sure I'm not losing myself in the hype and hoopla." Both the title of Obama's second book, The Audacity of Hope, and the theme for his keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in 2004 come from Wright's sermons. "If you want to understand where Barack gets his feeling and rhetoric from," says the Rev. Jim Wallis, a leader of the religious left, "just look at Jeremiah Wright."

Obama wasn't born into Wright's world. His parents were atheists, an African bureaucrat and a white grad student, Jerry Falwell's nightmare vision of secular liberals come to life. Obama could have picked any church — the spare, spiritual places in Hyde Park, the awesome pomp and procession of the cathedrals downtown. He could have picked a mosque, for that matter, or even a synagogue. Obama chose Trinity United. He picked Jeremiah Wright. Obama writes in his autobiography that on the day he chose this church, he felt the spirit of black memory and history moving through Wright, and "felt for the first time how that spirit carried within it, nascent, incomplete, the possibility of moving beyond our narrow dreams.""


And here's some great stuff on the "theology:"

"Although Obama has condemned some of most controversial statements of Wright as needlessly divisive and distorted, Wright's ministry is founded on the black theology that Cone helped to create.
• "To be Christian is to be one of those whom God has chosen. God has chosen black people." [Black Theology and Black Power, pp. 139-140].
• "While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 15]
• "All white men are responsible for white oppression." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 24]
• "Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 40]
• "If there is any contemporary meaning of the Antichrist, the white church seems to be a manifestation of it." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 73]
"

What's interesting to me is that while I sure don't agree with him about a whole lot of things, I don't think Wright's a "maggot." Moe, for a liberal, really does have a lot more eliminationist ("I'd just shoot or ship off to labor camps everybody on the other side, IF I COULD, and that'd be cool!") language than Ross or myself. It's not fair, but Moe really does make you think "hey, maybe Goldberg's right. at least the netroots really are, at heart, would-be Mussolinis").

I'm aware there are a lot of similar people on the right, but I try to avoid them, and in my walk of life I don't run into them much -- while I do run into "Moe"s in faculty lounges from time to time, alas.

Admittedly, I'd be much more inclined to refer to say, Spong as a "maggot" (though I can't see myself doing this) than to Wright as such.

TMoC writes: "LBJ and Carter screwed up the country in a huge number of ways, so liberalism is clearly all junk, and conservatism is clearly junk because Bush was an awful president. So I guess we're left with Broderism, or something."

I think the actual truth isn't that conservatism is junk, but that almost without exception conservative politicians in this country are worthless idiots. This is egregiously true at the national level.

I think you're giving Carter too much credit - I don't think his presidency was effective enough to have lasting effects that can be said to have screwed anything up. LBJ, sure. But Saint Reagan beats them both to hell, because he screwed this country up in the most unforgivable way - by making it acceptable to be stupid again. (Nixon was a crook, but we've always had crooks.

Reagan was the harbinger for Dumbya Bush. The depthless "Great Communicator" paved the way for the inane Jesus-thumping sociopath from Texas. If there's a void in American politics for you "true conservatives" now, blame those guys.

TheBannedMoeLarryAndJesus,

You don't seem to understand. Your hatred of conservatives, or rather, your hatred of those with whom you disagree (they are not synonymous), is meaningless. In fact, I'd say the more you claim that those who have a problem with Obama's association with Wright are actually the problem, the more you ensure that moderates will decide to go the safe route and vote for John McCain.

Your overheated hyperbole convinces no one who will matter in the coming election. Rancid little partisans appeal only to rancid little partisans. Normal people will decide for themselves what matters.

By the way, McCain is a throughly vetted candidate. Everybody knows him. Nothing you will ever do will ever convince moderates that McCain has somehow morphed into an extremist God-Squader overnight. He has not record of such because he is not such.

But you keep wasting your time with that, sparky. You just keep wasting your time ....

he's trying to free African-American politics from the vise grip of grievance and resentment, . . . [and] at the same time, he's trying to bring the country, which has heretofore tilted right, into the center-left mainstream as well. (The latter achievement, obviously, depends on the former . . .

That is the right wing's problem in a nutshell.

In their eyes, "the country" (apparently an entity separate from that of "African-Americans") will be willing to give up its perpetual racism and dismissal of black interests after blacks agree not to care about everything that has been done to them in the past. If blacks simply abandon any concerns arising from their own history, then whites will start to treat them a little better now. White "forgiveness" of black resentment depends on blacks' renouncing any interest in their own mistreatment.

It's impossible to understand how conservatives live with themselves, but it's all too obvious why no one else wants to.

It's not black people's responsibility to "get over" slavery, Jim Crow, and discrimination. It's not white people's privilege to continue snubbing and smothering blacks for as long as they choose, until blacks agree to stop feeling resentful of it in return for an unsecured promise of an unspecified degree of fairness in the future. The centuries long, pervasive and perpetual abuse and mistreatment of people of color in America is more than enough grounds for at least an equally-long period of resentment. Its effects, overt and indirect, persist as well, and define the grounds on which whites and non-whites interact, today and for the forseeable future; that also demands acknowledgment. When whites admit - freely and without qualification - those facts, and their privilege arising from those facts ("but I didn't own any slaves" is not the point; it just marks you as a smug racist), then maybe they will deserve some consideration from blacks who have shown themselves far more willing to grant whites undeserved absolution than whites are to make even the most minimal effort to deserve it. To demand instead that blacks earn grace from whites who live on their backs to this day is the most insufferably stupid, ignorant racism imaginable.

of course if you're an ideological conservative you don't like what you hear from him; he's talking to everybody else, but not to you

If you're an ideological conservative - as you have just proven beyond question - he's not talking to you because you're a racist asshole. Listen, learn, be ashamed, and repent - maybe you'll have a chance to achieve some measure of decency, though there's no evidence of it.

With some exceptions, politicians (and not just in this country) are worthless idiots, to a coarse abstraction. This is not news -- indeed, dealing with this unpleasant fact is one of the key animating principles of conservatism, broadly considered. Reagan gets more adoration than he deserves, but by and large the left is more inclined to messianic devotion of politicos than the right. I mean, JFK was sort of a screwup, with policies all over the places left and right, and RFK was into "national-security" prying on foes in a way that's hard for me (dummy I am) to tell from Nixon or Bush, but you'd think he was the God Osiris we all await to read the NYRB sometimes.

Thebanned... wrote:
"Wright's damning of America was no different from what countless numbers of wingnut theologians do every single Sunday..."

I don't think you could be more wrong. A large part of the reason is the different histories of the "black" and "white" churches in this country, which is obviously tied to the different histories of the respective members, but the politicization in black churches is MUCH more predominant than in white churches. I'm sure there are white churches preaching the equivalent of black liberation theology, but you would be hard pressed to find very many of any size. The ones you did find would very likely be liberal churches, not conservative ones.

TMoC writes: "Moe, for a liberal, really does have a lot more eliminationist ("I'd just shoot or ship off to labor camps everybody on the other side, IF I COULD, and that'd be cool!") language than Ross or myself. It's not fair, but Moe really does make you think "hey, maybe Goldberg's right. at least the netroots really are, at heart, would-be Mussolinis")."

I've never said or thought anything of the kind, of course. TMoC is simply lying here, which doesn't surprise me because he's a conservative, and to be a conservative these days seems to mean being unable to refrain from lying.

Ross (writes)
"his practical concessions to present-day conservatism are vanishingly small. But he isn't trying to win over the gang at the Corner, or movement conservatives more generally; he's trying to win over those voters (and writers) who sometimes think that conservatives make a lot of sense, but whose ideological commitments are ultimately malleable."

Well that may be what he's trying to do but I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Up until Obamas close ties to Wright's politics was revealed he had cast himself as above race & therefore capable of offering reconciliation.

At this point however his association with that level of Leftist politics is secured. The question will always remain concerning just how far left his sympathies really are.

Unlike Clintons "Sister Soldia" moment - this episode has served to associate Obama with Wright style politics rather than sever his image from them.. Indeed he can no more disown Wright then he can disown his grandmother.

This despite media nostrums that yesterdays speech was equivalent to MLK on the Mall.

Moe, I think calling people "maggots" or "Repiglicans" is semi-eliminationist language. It is when Ann Coulter does the equivalent, or Limbaugh (I don't know for the same level of fact that he does), and it sounds the same from you. It's probably just juvenile language, but it sounds a little... scary, really. You don't debate or engage in democracy with maggots and pigs, you just shoot 'em, where I came from. People aren't maggots or pigs.

Catalonia vents: "Your overheated hyperbole convinces no one who will matter in the coming election. Rancid little partisans appeal only to rancid little partisans. Normal people will decide for themselves what matters."

You're a "rancid little partisan" of your own stripe, chuckles. By the way, is there such a thing as "underheated hyperbole"?

What sort of moron thinks the GOP deserves another term in the White House after the complete disaster of the Bushpig Era? You wingnuts had complete control of the government and did your best to drag the country into the latrine your dystopian fantasies would call paradise. What will you do for an encore? McCain has promised more of the same, including 100 years in Iraq.

Thank you, sir! May I have another?

"By the way, McCain is a throughly vetted candidate. Everybody knows him. Nothing you will ever do will ever convince moderates that McCain has somehow morphed into an extremist God-Squader overnight. He has not record of such because he is not such."

I know he isn't. But he was once willing to refer to them as "agents of intolerance," which was true, and now he kisses their asses in public. He wants the White House so badly he's jettisoned his principles one by one.

Now if he'll only pick Dick Cheney as his running mate he'll be your own personal nocturnal emission.

TMoC replies: "Moe, I think calling people "maggots" or "Repiglicans" is semi-eliminationist language. It is when Ann Coulter does the equivalent, or Limbaugh (I don't know for the same level of fact that he does), and it sounds the same from you. It's probably just juvenile language, but it sounds a little... scary, really. You don't debate or engage in democracy with maggots and pigs, you just shoot 'em, where I came from. People aren't maggots or pigs."

Um, they shoot maggots where you come from? Really?

For you to jump from some mild - and considering that Repiglicans (a term I have explained over and over again) support torture - namecalling to saying that I support shooting "the other side" or sending them to camps is absurd, TMoC. It isn't just an overstatement, it's an utter falsehood and contrary to everything I've expressed on this or any other site.

Which makes you a liar. Stand on it if you wish. I well recall the time you told me that I was a liar because I wouldn't be able to support my claim that Cardinal Ratzinger wanted the Church to cover up child molestation. When I provided said proof immediately you didn't retract the accusation. This seems to be a repetitive behavior for you. That's juvenile behavior, which is worse than having a little juvenile fun with language.

So calling someone a 'n*g*er' is just harmless language, too? Sure, you're probably just juvenile. But thinking of entire classes of people as "pigs" or "maggots" -- even if they've done supported bad policies -- is bad. And maybe you don't have a single such thought, but lots of people who use that kind of language do, and it's a rhetorical habit that makes it much easier to not mind when people do get around to camps or gas chambers. Do you think there's no harm when some asshole "conservative" calls Muslims 'towelheads'? But polling suggests that Muslims in some places are at least as "complicit" and happy with terrorist actions as Republicans are with torture.

I think you provided evidence that Ratzinger took a (bad, in context) position on a point canon law and discipline, not that he "wanted to cover up child molestation." I still think that.

Banned repeatedly yet back again - Juvenile harassment and shamelessness. Intellectually vacuous opinions highlighted by humorless little fart jokes.

Little man actually. His name is Jim Keane and when he's not busy ruining any possibility of interesting discussion from taking place at Ross' site, he is getting banned from Wikipedia for trolling and vandalism (and not for his choice of name as he will try to tell you)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/TortureIsWrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MoeLarryAndJesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppeteers&from=T

Jim Keane is a risible and not the least entertaining, this fellow ruin’s the possibility of interesting discussion on this site. One has to either ignore his basically vicious remarks or try to make light of them.

Though Ross allows wide latitude of discussion on this site, he needs to can this rude character…..Again

(Just go away...improve your online demeanor - find another website & handle. "Patient heal thyself")

The reason conservatives are upset about the speech is not simply that Obama is a liberal; they are upset because this great unifier has gone out of his way to portray liberal policies as progress toward racial equality and conservative policies as roadblocks to such progress. Blacks in America have not yet achieved true equality, according to Obama, because our government is not yet massive enough to fix things properly. Conservatives think that just this kind of mid-century liberal thinking has, thus far, prevented greater equality in America. It would not be that much of a stretch to say that Obama implies in his speach that conservatism is a form of racism or at least an ideology that ignores the problems of minorities and the disadvantaged in general. But conservatives do care about their problems (most conservatives anyway), they just see a different set of solutions. When Obama speaks of conservatives this way, his rhetoric is not only offensive to conservatives, it is unhealthy for America.

>>> If you're an ideological conservative - as you have just proven beyond question - he's not talking to you because you're a racist asshole.

Yes, you're so right, and to think, before I came out, I was ashamed of it! Can you imagine! Now, well, it's all out there.

>>> Listen, learn, be ashamed, and repent - maybe you'll have a chance to achieve some measure of decency, though there's no evidence of it.

Don't ask me to deny my true nature. I am who I am and I love me! I REALLY love me!

Why of course, black-facing Lt Gov Michael Steele and equating Secretary of State Dr Rice as an 'Aunt Jemima lackey for the white guy' is a perfectly acceptable thing for racist Liberals to do.

Which is why I, like David Mamet, am no longer a brain-dead Liberal.

LarryM, I think you're usually pretty sensible. But when it comes to both policy and feelings, the majority of public opinion is a long long way to the right of Obama here, never mind the public pieties of the commentariat. Steve Sailer (without the math) is closer to a lot of real-world opinion, I think, outside the liberal northeast.

I certainly hope you are wrong. But here's the problem - from the perspective of a lot of liberals and libertarians, concluding that Mr. Sailer is "closer to a lot of real world opinion" would only confirm some of their worst fears about the prevalence of racism. Now, whether it's fair to call Mr. Sailer a racist or not, if that's the way the typical white American thinks about black people, then the anger that someone like Rev. Wright feels and expresses is, if anything, more understandable.

Here really is the problem: there is a certain difference of opinion regarding the underlying facts which makes it difficult for people to talk about race in an entirely civil manner. If you believe, as some conservatives do, that racism has ceased to be a significant problem in our society, I'm not sure if a good faith conversation on race is really possible. I certainly don't think that such a conclusion is inherently racist, but it leads to a disturbing tendency to blame all of the problems facing the Black community on that community itself. And that, if not racism, shades fairly close to it. In other words, there isn't a lot of room between "blacks are the victims of the white power structure" and "blacks are fully responsible for the problems their communities suffer."

Now, that doesn't mean that the traditional "liberal" remedies to our legacy of racism are necessarily all correct. I tend to think that such remedies generally haven't (on the whole) made nearly as much of a positive difference as liberals hoped, though on the other hand I don't think they have had the harmful effects that many conservatives believe. But to deny that racism (and, of course, the legacy of past racism) is still a very serious problem in America seems to me to be myopic at best.

TMoC replies: "So calling someone a 'n*g*er' is just harmless language, too? Sure, you're probably just juvenile. But thinking of entire classes of people as "pigs" or "maggots" -- even if they've done supported bad policies -- is bad. And maybe you don't have a single such thought, but lots of people who use that kind of language do, and it's a rhetorical habit that makes it much easier to not mind when people do get around to camps or gas chambers. Do you think there's no harm when some asshole "conservative" calls Muslims 'towelheads'? But polling suggests that Muslims in some places are at least as "complicit" and happy with terrorist actions as Republicans are with torture.

I think you provided evidence that Ratzinger took a (bad, in context) position on a point canon law and discipline, not that he "wanted to cover up child molestation." I still think that."

When Ratzinger said that he wanted the rapes of children by priests to be handled by the Church and not reported to the police he was explicitly and undeniably urging that child rape be covered up, TMoC. There is no other reasonable interpretation of the matter, even for people who believe in demons and gonadless winged sky fairies.

And if you can't distinguish between racial invective and calling someone who supports torture a "pig," then you're not just a liar, you're a fool. I hope you don't think that by calling you a fool I'm suggesting you could be shot, but that's the level of your argument here, and it is plainly foolish.

I realize you're in a difficult position, in that you feel like you have to defend conservatism against the horrific state it's in these days, but you're not helping it with these tactics.

LarryM writes: "Now, that doesn't mean that the traditional "liberal" remedies to our legacy of racism are necessarily all correct. I tend to think that such remedies generally haven't (on the whole) made nearly as much of a positive difference as liberals hoped, though on the other hand I don't think they have had the harmful effects that many conservatives believe. But to deny that racism (and, of course, the legacy of past racism) is still a very serious problem in America seems to me to be myopic at best."

The right doesn't deny racism is a serious problem. It's just that they see "reverse racism" as the only aspect of racism that remains and that matters. Racism itself isn't a problem, it's one of their favorite indoor sports, right up there with bashing "the gays" and figuring out ways to deny medical coverage to poor people.

This is why "welfare queens with Cadillacs" and "macaca" remarks seem completely inoffensive to them. They're conservaties, so they can't possibly have any negative traits or be wrong about anything.

Oh, and the economy is in great shape and the surge is working and Dumbya's a uniter, not a divider.

No, Roos: the dismissive reactions to Obama's speech from the right ARE "palpably fueled by fear and racism." It is an American tradition, in particular a white AAmerican tradition, to claim that antipathy to blacks is caused by virtually anything except -- you guessed it -- fear and racism.

The right doesn't deny racism is a serious problem. It's just that they see "reverse racism" as the only aspect of racism that remains and that matters. Racism itself isn't a problem, it's one of their favorite indoor sports, right up there with bashing "the gays" and figuring out ways to deny medical coverage to poor people.

Well here you're generalizing again, Moe, which is one of the many reasons why I often wish you weren't on my side. Not that I don't engage in invective myself from time to time (though rarely here), but that's all you do.

That said, there is a point lying underneath your invective. It's this: many people on the right, while decrying "PC" liberals, have, in their own way, become quite PC themselves. It's one thing to take the position that racism is not a serious problem in society. That's myopic, as I said, but at least consistent. But those people who, at the same time, claim that racism is no longer a huge problem for blacks, yet work up a huge amount of anger and resentment about "reverse racism" - well, that's more than just myopic, it's offensive. And, generalizations aside, that combination of beliefs seems disturbingly prevalent on the right.

It is an American tradition, in particular a white AAmerican tradition, to claim that antipathy to blacks is caused by virtually anything except -- you guessed it -- fear and racism.

Wow, what an odd coincidence - it's ANOTHER American tradition to suggest that any criticism of a particular black person is self-evidently caused by racism!

As for the alleged non-racism of conservatives, just compare the endless and effusive positive comments cons have directed at Alan Keyes over the years, during each of his campaigns, to his actual vote totals.

I've never met or talked to a movement con that didn't claim to LOVE "Dr. Keyes." I've also never met one that voted for him. I look forward to seeing all 12 of his voters show up here in the next few hours to tell me how wrong I am.

And of course not voting for Keyes doesn't make someone racist. Using him as a shield does. This claim won't make sense to cons who don't get why the "welfare queens with Cadillacs" lies were racist.

In reading this blog and all the comments that followed encourages me to go donate another $100 to the Obama campaign. Thanx Guys.. Love constructive conversation which has been lacking on so many levels in the past few years, but Obama has been able to spur this far.

Mars vs Hollywood

"Wow, what an odd coincidence - it's ANOTHER American tradition to suggest that any criticism of a particular black person is self-evidently caused by racism!"

Nice.

For those of you confused, Steve Sailer, the man who Ross and several commentors here holds up as an example of a person who the right considers an authority on race in America, or someone who's opinions on race is closer to the "mainstream" than Mr. Obama's, is a man who has made a career out of claiming blacks are genetically inferior to whites...just thought I'd mention that.

I wouldn't dare call him a racist though, he just believes that white people are inherently superior to other races.

LarryM replies: "Well here you're generalizing again, Moe, which is one of the many reasons why I often wish you weren't on my side. Not that I don't engage in invective myself from time to time (though rarely here), but that's all you do."

No, it's not all I do, though of course I was "generalizing" in that case. Generalizations are quite useful when dealing with a group that is as lockstep as the current right is, and I won't aplogize for it.

I think your own writing would be more interesting if you didn't waste so much time inserting waffle words when you're trying to make a point, but so what? If the end point is worth making, I won't criticize you for that. If you don't think the current state of this country and what the conservative movement has done in leading us to it are worthy of invective then I don't think much of your perceptions.

I've seen you let loose a little, Larry, so I know you know they have it coming. Be as nice to them as you wish - they still think you're a stinking LIB who hates America and that you want to surrender to jihadists.

Contrary to Ross’s post: it seems the main effect of Obamas speech yesterday was not to distance himself from his Pastors politics.

Rather: it seems (as posts on this blog attest) the effect was to shift the conversation away from the extremes of racial leftist politics BACK TO the more comfortable ground of "your all racists and were not."

he just believes that white people are inherently superior to other races.

Well, some other races. I think Sailer, like most race realists (and this is becoming, for good or for ill, for true or for false, more accepted territory -- see Wade's BEFORE THE DAWN, a NYT science writer no less -- and its hints about how evolution doesn't stop at 1M years ago), would say that whites are "inferior" (if you are measuring superiority by some kind of IQ test intelligence, a dubious proposition and one Sailer occasionally does note his Chestertonian objections to) to some Asian populations and certainly to Jews.

they still think you're a stinking LIB who hates America and that you want to surrender to jihadists

Er, we do? Gosh, Moe, I don't. Perhaps I'm not a conservative. Doubt it'll keep me out of the camps if you ever become king, but I could just note I like Vonnegut and you'd probably turn into a decent fella to have a beer with.

Jim Keane must be the trolliest troll who ever trolled.

Thanks, "I dont go were I am not wanted," for ID'ing him.

"Risible and not the least entertaining" - i.e., laughable but not funny - should be graven on his tombstone.

TMoC quotes and replies: "they still think you're a stinking LIB who hates America and that you want to surrender to jihadists

Er, we do? Gosh, Moe, I don't. Perhaps I'm not a conservative. Doubt it'll keep me out of the camps if you ever become king, but I could just note I like Vonnegut and you'd probably turn into a decent fella to have a beer with."

Now I'm scared. The last guy conservatives thought was "a decent fella to have a beer with" turned out to be a war criminal with a penchant for torture.

But at least I actually drink beer, unlike that worthless prick.

"I think Sailer, like most race realists (and this is becoming, for good or for ill, for true or for false, more accepted territory -- see Wade's BEFORE THE DAWN, a NYT science writer no less -- and its hints about how evolution doesn't stop at 1M years ago), would say that whites are "inferior" (if you are measuring superiority by some kind of IQ test intelligence, a dubious proposition and one Sailer occasionally does note his Chestertonian objections to) to some Asian populations and certainly to Jews."

Calling Sailer a "race realist" ignores the fact that he's a movement conservative who uses his "facts" exclusively in service to his repulsive ideology. The single worst punditry moment of the 2008 campaign has been his dissection of Michelle Obama. I can't PROVE that every single woman Sailer has ever been involved with has cheated on him with black men, just as I can't PROVE that his mother made him watch her tryst with Wilt Chamberlain when he was 7, but his level of prurient race-obsessiveness must have very deep roots, and my speculations are just as well-founded as his comments about Mrs. Obama.

Steve, don't worry! That wasn't REALLY Wilt Chamberlain! It was just some homeless guy who gave your mom a pack of cigarettes!

Oh, and by the way: both Art Deco and The Marquis of Carabas are, if possible, even better, smarter, and more interesting writers than Ross Douthat himself. If they don't, sooner or later, enjoy a lot more public exposure then what little is afforded to them by this comments section, then there's no justice in the world.

But I guess we already knew that.

Nah, not in my case. I don't actually write "original ideas" well at all, or manage the basic work like: pick a topic for an essay. I just read widely and like arguing -- I can respond all day long, but could not originate interesting posts to start something going, the way Ross or Larison or Reihan do, day in day out.

I'm mostly just a guy who does experiments that take a lot of time, and gets bored waiting, and always has a laptop glued to his fingers.

Andrew argues that the dismissive reactions to Obama's speech from the right are "palpably fueled by fear and racism."

Not homophobia? It's a New Andrew.

When Obama speaks of conservatives this way, his rhetoric is not only offensive to conservatives, it is unhealthy for America.
Posted by layne | March 19, 2008 3:18 PM

The real tragedy is that it is basically true.
Radical conservatism, ie post 1968 style, has evicirated the AA community by eliminating the role the state plays in actively supporting the social mobility of the bottom 20% of the income distribution. And lets not talk about the peverse incentives the war on drugs produces.

It's as plain as day. But oh is it good to ignore. As Barbara said, why should I trouble my beautiful mind with such things.

"It's been noted before before, but to understand the Right's mounting disappointment with his candidacy"

Ross, you've outdone yourself: you actually said this with a straight face!

Yes, all those sage thinkers on the right who were just dying for a reason to vote for a Democrat, now finding themselves disappointed!

It's truly a tragedy. Who could have seen it coming?

And get this: Mickey Kaus had all sorts of nitpicky things to say about a Democratic politician (some of which he contradicts himself on two sentences later: faster faster!)! I mean, what are the odds of that?

Yes, all those sage thinkers on the right who were just dying for a reason to vote for a Democrat, now finding themselves disappointed!

I think Rod Dreher honestly was in this camp, to some extent.

Oh, and despite being on the otherwise terrible Huffington Post: this article by Frank Schaeffer is worth a read.

A bestselling darling the religious right: a man who's books Huckabee cited in his campaign as one of his alltime favorites. Who compared America to Nazi Germany and suggested that we might have to forcibly overthrow it.

Subsequently? A guest of the Reagans. Mourned by conservative America when he passed. Not a peep about him being unamerican or a nutcase anyone should have to distance themselves from.

I am with Huckabee on this. While I wish Obama's preacher had been able to get his head out of the 20th century and move on, I'm not sure I would have been able to. If I'd been a black kid in the 40's, 50's, or 60's, if I had watched my family been discriminated against and mistreated, maybe knew people who murdered, beaten, or raped because they were black, then I think I would still be angry and distrustful of white people... even after all this time.

With that in mind, I judge Wright more on his actions that his words. At times his words have been hateful, but he has spent his whole life, not trying to murder, beat, or rape white people, but trying to improve the lives of black people. He has fed and clothed the hungry and poor. He's cared for the sick and the broken hearted. He has reached out to others, in actual practice, with compassion and love. Most of the time, his words have reflected that compassion and love.

Do you seriously think it was wrong of Obama to look past Wright's angry scars and see the actual good he has done in the world? Are you so free of sin that you can cast those stones?

Marquis: Well, then...I suppose I must die unsatisfied.

steve burton:

This life, Sir, is a vale of tears. But thank you for the (too flattering) compliments!

Z asks: "Do you seriously think it was wrong of Obama to look past Wright's angry scars and see the actual good he has done in the world? Are you so free of sin that you can cast those stones?"

These are Bush/Rove/Cheney era movement conservatives, Z, and they have an election to win. These are people who have proven over and over again that decency is a completely foreign concept to them. They worship power and power alone. Torture is okay when they do it. Lying in order to go to war against a helpless, virtually unarmed country that was already battered by a previous war is no problem for them. If this round of smears against Obama doesn't stick they'll try something else - maybe dig up some mental patient who can be bribed into saying he raped her 20 years ago, who knows? It's not like they're above such tactics. These are the same people who committed necrophilia-by-video on the husk of Terri Schiavo a couple of years ago. I've been saying all along that an Obama nomination would reveal the nasty cancer at the core of movement conservatism, and they've only just begun to metastasize.

Check back here often to enjoy the spectacle of Ross ignoring this filth even as he plays his own small part in supporting it.

Just in case Jeff is still around, I'd like to point out (re an argument we had hours earlier) that noted America hater Gen. Petraeus has also said that Iran is not the source of training or weapons for AQI (it's, apparently, Syria).

Further, I asked a while back when it was a relevant topic whether there was evidence of Michelle Obama's "resentment" other than her comment about never being really proud to be an American. Still would like some information from those who have it. Thanks.

Sorry for the interruption.

Why all of the hysterical defensiveness around what Obama said (and wrote)?
Almost everyone says bad things at some time or another. That's his point. It's true.
He broke the First Rule of Politics: When in trouble, throw your friend(s) under the bus. As Cheney did with Scooter Libby.
So he stood by his friend. Big deal. Are we addicted to electing only treacherous bastards that we know will lie to us? Are we just a nation of masochistic morons?
And he said America is imperfect. Are we just a nation of insecure jingoistic simpletons waiting to be fitted for brown shirts?
Obama speaks plainly, calmly, about things we all know in our hearts are true.
I'd love him to give another speech on war, then one on gender, then one on the economy.
He's got a lot to say.

"Radical conservatism, ie post 1968 style, has evicirated the AA community by eliminating the role the state plays in actively supporting the social mobility of the bottom 20% of the income distribution."

Wow - conservatives are racists charge: check; The State is good claim: check; false assertion that upward mobility (say, like that of the Obamas) is stifled: check; welfare is good claim: check. A lot of leftist talking points to unpack there.

"And lets not talk about the peverse incentives the war on drugs produces."

Actually agree with you. The older I get the more libertarian I get on the "war on drugs."

rE: Obama has just ended any chance he had of winning the presidency with this speech.

I have not seen such an orgy of angry, hopeless denial on the Right since Election Day 2006 when most of the GOP-bots were swearing up and down that despite all the polls the GOP would NOT lose seats in Congress.
Look, I'm not one of Obama's fans but I do see that he hit a solid triple, maybe even a home run with this speech. It makes me more not less likely to support him. And think on this too: by whomping up this controversy a la Swiftboat now the slime machine has lost a big weapon in its arsenal. In a couple week it will be forgotten, and any attempt to revive it in October will be met with a big yawn.

Re: But when it comes to both policy and feelings, the majority of public opinion is a long long way to the right of Obama here

What do you mean by "here"? If you're talking about where public opinion is on race Obama hit it dead center in the bull's eye.

Here's my question... for every conservative that says Wright is anti-american, racist, stupid etc etc...

Have you never spoken with a black person who feels the same way about AIDS? Never heard it mentioned? Because I am white kid from Boston, and I've certainly heard it.

Have you never thought that some black people might still be mad at the state of America, and feel that the amount of blacks in jail and in low-paying jobs is disproportional to whites? Because I have.

Wright may be a 'fringe' figure, but the fringe isn't that small, honestly. And for all his faults, I'd rather a fringe figure that condemns the United States for causing a loss of lives, then one who condemns other nations and wishes death/destruction upon them. I haven't seen one speech in which Wright has condemned any person for being gay, or white, or anything else, personally. He seems to be mostly ANTI-GOVERNMENT, as opposed to anti-white. The fact that government is mostly made up of whites is what's throwing everyone off.


"Wright may be a 'fringe' figure, but the fringe isn't that small, honestly"

No its not, but that’s what’s so potentially devastating to the Obama campaign.

Bill Clinton was a true conservative Democrat with a DLC resume, a Southern Governor who was for the death penalty & promised to reform welfare as we knew it. (plus he was white.)

Yet he had to distance himself from Black leftists of this stripe with his "sister soilda" moment.

Obama gets caught with an association with a much more radical (& documented) activist - has the chance to dissociate himself from him & instead he belts out this gray muddle along with “I cant disown”???

Believe me – this will haunt his campaign in substance and spirit until November.

Fitz,

That's the thing. I don't think he WAS distancing himself from those Black Leftists. I think he was calling out to them, to take them with him, but IF and ONLY IF they would take the steps to shed their fear, their paranoia, their anger and work alongside others of all colors. And along with that, he asked others to help them stand up, to take them along with him, to carry us ALL forward into the new millenium, with an eye less inclined to latch onto the beliefs of the past.

He's, in effect, saying that he knows that there are people in this country that have these racist ideas and opinions, but there is no way to excise them without actually looking the other person in the face. There is no better way to test the measure of a man than by working alongside him, and I feel that's what Obama was asking of all of us.

Marquis,

Come on now. Not only is 'maggot' not in the same league as 'the N-word'. It's not even in the same league as "m---f---r', "c--s--r", "piece of s--t" or "son of a w---". "Maggot" is neither profane, nor obscene, nor sexual reference, nor a racial slur. There's a time for polite discourse, and there's a time for (mild) abuse.

And of course you don't call Wright a maggot-- you acknowledged yourself that you feel a certain respect for the man, so I'm sure you're not tempted to call him one. You are, as you say, sometimes tempted to call Spong a maggot, and as an Anglican I would suggest you give in to that temptation. He _is_ a loathsome character, and a man as mired in evil, in his way, as George Bush, and someone needs to call both of them on it. I feel little obligation to be nice to either one of them.

Think of it this way...remember that Bishop that C.S. Lewis describes in Hell? In _The Great Divorce_? That's Spong in a few years, if he doesn't change. Maybe being called a maggot and similar terms of abuse by enough people will convince him to change his ways. Maybe not. But certainly being polite and 'tolerant' to people like him isn't going to help.

There's plenty of people on the right that I would also use terms of abuse for, but hopefully Spong is one on whom we can agree. If Our Lord could call the Pharisees 'ye brood of vipers', then I don't see how referring to truly loathsome people as pigs or maggots is in any way beyond the pale.

Fitz writes: "Yet he had to distance himself from Black leftists of this stripe with his "sister soilda" moment."

I think that Fitz would have to be waterboarded over a period of several weeks and threatened with a forced gay marriage before he could learn how to spell "Sister Souljah." Of course she was only a very minor character, and barely worth remembering. Steve Sailer says things just as objectionable as anything she ever did every single day and Fitz applauds. Fitz's hero Dumbya Bush is a war criminal responsible for real-life crimes, and Fitz thinks Dumbya is anointed by Jesus.

There was never a chance that the Fitzes and Art Decos and Peter Leavitts and Freds who post here would pass on the chance to join an Obama lynching party. No matter how nasty and silly and irrelevant this crap gets they'll be up for it. They have no choice - their party has no standing on any real issues, since they have failed in all respects of late, and their candidate is a senile fool who thinks the Iranians are training Al Qaeda. So this sort of trash is what we'll be seeing - in all of their illiterate glory - between now and November.

Hector writes: "If Our Lord could call the Pharisees 'ye brood of vipers', then I don't see how referring to truly loathsome people as pigs or maggots is in any way beyond the pale."

Aint that a kick in the asp!

I think TMoC got caught making a stupid argument and couldn't find a graceful way to bow out. It happens. At least he doesn't make a stupid argument every time out, unlike the creatures I mentioned in my previous post.

Correction to my own post: it was apparently St. John the Baptist and not Jesus Christ who used the phrase "brood of vipers".

Speaking of St. John the Baptist, apparently the tiny religion of the Mandaeans that worships St. John the Baptist is on their last legs due to the rise of Islamism in Iraq post-2003. Quite a tragedy.

Whether they're "fueled" by racism I don't know, but they will increasingly "employ" racism as this progresses. Give it time, they're only just starting.

Hector writes: "Speaking of St. John the Baptist, apparently the tiny religion of the Mandaeans that worships St. John the Baptist is on their last legs due to the rise of Islamism in Iraq post-2003. Quite a tragedy."

But freedom is on the march! I guess the Mandaeans were camped on the parade route.

Dick Cheney would just say, "So what."

Obama's speech will be read for centuries as a classic of American History and of rhetoric. It's ultimate failure lies in its denial that you can care deeply about the fate of African-Americans and the perfection of this Union while disagreeing with his policy prescriptions for advancing them. Nevertheless, it's even greater success lies in his humble acknowledgement that his candidacy is flawed vehicle. Perhaps we can have it both ways. Obama as president allows us to agree to acknowledge the full freight of history as burden while insisting that doing so doesn't settle the many questions of public policy which such an acknowledgement opens but doesn't by itself answer.

Obama's speech will be read for centuries as a classic of American History and of rhetoric. It's ultimate failure lies in its denial that you can care deeply about the fate of African-Americans and the perfection of this Union while disagreeing with his policy prescriptions for advancing them. Nevertheless, it's even greater success lies in his humble acknowledgement that his candidacy is flawed vehicle. Perhaps we can have it both ways. Obama as president allows us to agree to acknowledge the full freight of history as burden while insisting that doing so doesn't settle the many questions of public policy which such an acknowledgement opens but doesn't by itself answer.

Obama's speech will be read for centuries as a classic of American History and of rhetoric. Its ultimate failure lies in its denial that you can care deeply about the fate of African-Americans and the perfection of this Union while disagreeing with his policy prescriptions for advancing them. Nevertheless, its even greater success lies in his humble acknowledgement that his candidacy is a flawed vehicle. An Obama presidency should allow us to acknowledge the full freight of history as burden while insisting that doing so doesn't settle the many questions of public policy which such an acknowledgement opens but doesn't by itself answer.

"Obama's speech will be read for centuries as a classic of American History and of rhetoric. It's ultimate failure lies in its denial that you can care deeply about the fate of African-Americans and the perfection of this Union while disagreeing with his policy prescriptions for advancing them."

Bullshit. He said no such thing. He didn't even imply it. He's a candidate, not a self-proclaimed perfect being.

Now if he were to say that movement conservatives don't give a rat's ass about "the fate of African-Americans," it would be hard to argue with him. They don't. But he didn't even say that.

When Obama moves from his depiction of the stalemate of African-American bitterness and white resentment to the other "option" -- the "this time" section of the speech -- he paints an invidious picture of what doing so would mean in terms of leftish policy. We understand the underlying cause of poverty and insecurity as job exportation for mere profits. Corporate culture is rife with corruption. Honest discussion of what to do next re Iraq is couched in its being a war that shouldn't have been authorized or waged. It's crumbling schools stealing the future of children rather than an ossified, dysfunctional educational regime.

This is a jarring transition from the thoughtful and inclusive to demagogic. As I say, that's unfortunate. But as he says, he's not perfect. And as Samuel Beckett says, "Fail better" next time. Even if he does stack the rhetorical deck against non-leftish policies, it doesn't preclude conservatives from challenging his assumption that the virtue to which he so eloquently calls us lies entirely on one path.

"Even if he does stack the rhetorical deck against non-leftish policies, it doesn't preclude conservatives from challenging his assumption that the virtue to which he so eloquently calls us lies entirely on one path."

Nothing precludes the poor stupid bastards from challenging anything, but their usual lack of imagination and rationality generally precludes them from doing so in a way that's constructive.

The failures of conservative policy are manifest and vast these days, and that's after the free reign Dumbya & Company had for 6 full years devoid of accomplishment. Next!

No, it's not all I do, though of course I was "generalizing" in that case. Generalizations are quite useful when dealing with a group that is as lockstep as the current right is, and I won't aplogize for it.

I think your own writing would be more interesting if you didn't waste so much time inserting waffle words when you're trying to make a point, but so what? If the end point is worth making, I won't criticize you for that. If you don't think the current state of this country and what the conservative movement has done in leading us to it are worthy of invective then I don't think much of your perceptions.

I've seen you let loose a little, Larry, so I know you know they have it coming. Be as nice to them as you wish - they still think you're a stinking LIB who hates America and that you want to surrender to jihadists.

First of all, though I myself am not always the best exemplar of this, I think that it's just bad manners to resort to invective and trash talk unless you are confronted with the same, or with CLEARLY bad faith argument. Some would say that it's bad manners even then to resort to trash talk and invective, though I'd clearly be a hypocrite to say so myself. As for generalizing, your statement about the current right is simply wrong, at least for the right as a whole. I'd agree that "movement conservatism" in many respects moves in lockstep, and that engagement with movement conservatives is almost always a complete waste of time. However, on this site in particular there is a lot of non-movement conservatism on display, starting with our host.

As for my own letting loose ... yes, sometimes, but don't let that fool your - that doesn't mean all of my opinions fall comfortably in the contemporary "progressive" realm. In particular, my increasing skepticism of government power puts me at odds with many progressives. (Not to mention a pretty pessimistic world view which goes hand in hand with what one might call a conservative disposition, albeit one which goes hand in hand with a secular (classical) liberalism.

I also happen to find discussions with certain of the non-movement conservatives very interesting. That's especially true of the paleocons. Sure, talking race with the paleos isn't terribly productive, but (a) I would say they, in general, they tend to be better on my key issue (non-interventionism) than the average progressive; (b) I can relate to their alienation from current American culture, though mostly for very different reasons. Daniel Larison, for example, despite the fact that his pre-enlightenment world view is deeply unappealing to me, is a national treasure. I guess it helps that he is as passionately anti-interventionist as I am.

LarryM writes: "First of all, though I myself am not always the best exemplar of this, I think that it's just bad manners to resort to invective and trash talk unless you are confronted with the same, or with CLEARLY bad faith argument. Some would say that it's bad manners even then to resort to trash talk and invective, though I'd clearly be a hypocrite to say so myself. As for generalizing, your statement about the current right is simply wrong, at least for the right as a whole. I'd agree that "movement conservatism" in many respects moves in lockstep, and that engagement with movement conservatives is almost always a complete waste of time. However, on this site in particular there is a lot of non-movement conservatism on display, starting with our host."

Nah, I'm not seeing it. Ross is a disengaged establishment Reaganite who dabbles in Sailerite racism and he never deviates significantly from the movement line. He'll pretend he's doing so from time to time, but being a con insider is his career and nothing he's ever written has jeopardized that for a minute. I think that's the actual reason he avoids writing about Iraq - it's a no-future topic.

While I do enjoy jousting with Hector and TMoC (despite the latter's unfortunate truthiness problems) and a few others, Ross's site attracts too many bottom-feeding Cheneyites like Art Deco, Steve Sailer, Fitz, Fred, Petey Leavitt, chris ford, and so on for me to agree with your assessment.

"In particular, my increasing skepticism of government power puts me at odds with many progressives. (Not to mention a pretty pessimistic world view which goes hand in hand with what one might call a conservative disposition, albeit one which goes hand in hand with a secular (classical) liberalism."

I'm as cynical and skeptical as anyone you'll ever meet, but I try not to be optimistic or pessimistic, since both stances get in the way of realism. I think you adhere to an old-fashioned distinction between conservatives and liberals that no longer applies in the real world. The current crop of conservatives may pretend to spurn government, but most of them crave a strong government that kicks ass and asks questions later. They reserve their "skepticism" about government for crap like banning smoking in bars (if they're smokers) while thinking wholesale wiretapping is "no big deal." And most liberals don't expect government to solve problems, they just want it to help some - since it helps less than it did 30 years ago. The government under Dumbya made things worse in an aggressive fashion - I don't think it's unreasonable to ask it to back up some.

I've never met or talked to a movement con that didn't claim to LOVE "Dr. Keyes." I've also never met one that voted for him. I look forward to seeing all 12 of his voters show up here in the next few hours to tell me how wrong I am.

Yelling at Rich Lowry through your TV screen does not qualify as "talking to" a movement conservative. I kid, I kid.

Even assuming that what you say is true, so what? Maybe they never had the chance to vote for him. Over the years I've voted many times in three different states and the District of Columbia and not once have I had a chance to vote my opinion on Alan Keyes, positive or negative (it's negative, for those keeping score at home).

Or perhaps good regard within your party simply doesn't always translate into vote tallies or campaign support. Just ask Bill Bradley, Jack Kemp, Ted Kennedy, Rudy Giuliani, and Paul Hackett.

What you're saying is that a conservative wants a candidate who will tell him what he wants to hear about race relations. Liberals are (slightly) more accepting of uncomfortable truths.

It's ridiculous to blame the problems of black people today on discrimination. The plain fact is that there is far less racial discrimination and prejudice today than there was 60 or even 30 years ago, and yet the problems of the black underclass are worse than ever. How, then, can their plight be laid at the feet of racial prejudice?

When Obama starts talking about that maybe I'll start listening.

Hector,

I guess in this sense I am a "liberal" or something. I do it sometimes (heck, I do a lot of reprehensible things), but I don't think it's right.

Yes, Jesus can call the pharisees vipers, and the prophets can use similar language -- and, on occasion, we may, humbly, avail ourselves of prophetic wrath and vituperation. But, eh, most of the time it is not productive. Even very bad people are not "maggots" -- I guess it's the similarity of the term to "vermin" that bugs me most. Dostoyevsky (that vituperative master) calling revolutionaries Gadarene swine doesn't bug me, after all.

Anyway, it bugs me and I try not to do it, and I think it "greases the skids" of the mind towards eliminationist thought. Similar language shows up on "the Right" in some quarters when the underlying effort is to "think our way" to nuking the Middle East and being "done with the lot of them." And Hector -- I don't think you're a Stalinist, but your degree of comfort with Castro and some others makes me think that, while not a wicked man, you are slightly more comfortable than I am with jailing or shooting men of different views in order to achieve political ends. Not unreasonable -- after all, I have sympathy for Samuel Johnson suggesting we should shut up certain points of view (i.e., that Hume was a decent fellow himself, but should perhaps be in jail and without a pen), but I don't know if it ends up anywhere good.

Hector,

I guess in this sense I am a "liberal" or something. I do it sometimes (heck, I do a lot of reprehensible things), but I don't think it's right.

Yes, Jesus can call the pharisees vipers, and the prophets can use similar language -- and, on occasion, we may, humbly, avail ourselves of prophetic wrath and vituperation. But, eh, most of the time it is not productive. Even very bad people are not "maggots" -- I guess it's the similarity of the term to "vermin" that bugs me most. Dostoyevsky (that vituperative master) calling revolutionaries Gadarene swine doesn't bug me, after all.

Anyway, it bugs me and I try not to do it, and I think it "greases the skids" of the mind towards eliminationist thought. Similar language shows up on "the Right" in some quarters when the underlying effort is to "think our way" to nuking the Middle East and being "done with the lot of them." And Hector -- I don't think you're a Stalinist, but your degree of comfort with Castro and some others makes me think that, while not a wicked man, you are slightly more comfortable than I am with jailing or shooting men of different views in order to achieve political ends. Not unreasonable -- after all, I have sympathy for Samuel Johnson suggesting we should shut up certain points of view (i.e., that Hume was a decent fellow himself, but should perhaps be in jail and without a pen), but I don't know if it ends up anywhere good.

TMoC writes: "Anyway, it bugs me and I try not to do it, and I think it "greases the skids" of the mind towards eliminationist thought. Similar language shows up on "the Right" in some quarters when the underlying effort is to "think our way" to nuking the Middle East and being "done with the lot of them.""

I'll take TMoC's comments on this sort of thing seriously the first time I see him upbrade a fellow conservative on these boards for using "similar language." I'm guessing I'll be waiting a long time for that.

On a broader note, most hate-speech in this country comes from the right and has for a couple of decades now. Right-wing talk radio is filled with the worst sort of racist evil shitbags and there simply is no equivalent on the left.

there simply is no equivalent on the left.

In terms of popularity, I'll mostly agree. In terms of rancor, malice, unreasonableness, and such? -- uh, you think so? That's very interesting. Nuts, but interesting.

You have one point, Moe -- the right wing jerks on here aren't (as far as I can tell) repeat posters, very noticeable and present in every thread. They also don't seem to be as (at times) cogent and capable of actually saying things as you are, Moe. They're pretty easy to ignore. You, to your credit (and somewhat to your detriment when you're being an ass) are not easy to ignore, and are persistent. Are there right wing jerks who use "maggot" style stuff who post in many threads, or have much repeat presence?

TMoC replies: "In terms of popularity, I'll mostly agree. In terms of rancor, malice, unreasonableness, and such? -- uh, you think so? That's very interesting. Nuts, but interesting.

You have one point, Moe -- the right wing jerks on here aren't (as far as I can tell) repeat posters, very noticeable and present in every thread. They also don't seem to be as (at times) cogent and capable of actually saying things as you are, Moe. They're pretty easy to ignore. You, to your credit (and somewhat to your detriment when you're being an ass) are not easy to ignore, and are persistent. Are there right wing jerks who use "maggot" style stuff who post in many threads, or have much repeat presence?"

If you had an example of left-wing radio hosts who were as repugnant and extreme as Limbaugh or Hannity or Savage or Ingraham you would have mentioned it, TMoC, so I'll just take that as an admission on your part that you don't. No one even comes close, in fact. And I could name a dozen more without even straining who are just as bad as that Gruesome Gang of Four.

As for the use of invective, I haven't bothered tabulating it, but it's here. What do you think about the assclowns who follow me around from thread to thread without any intention of addressing the thread topics, ever? It's typical wingnut behavior, and you can't be bothered to mention it - but if I call someone who supports torture a "maggot" it offends your delicate sensibilities? You just had a "funny ha-ha" moment up above with some illiterate turd who has fantasies about what should be graven on my tombstone, so spare me the hall monitor bullshit.

Well, yeah, the left hasn't exactly conquered talk radio, it's true -- Rhodes has said some nasty things, if you ask me, but she's got so little entertainment talent that it doesn't really matter. But I'm not griping about Daily Kos invective, or whatever, I'm saying that while I probably have about as positive a view of the ideas of supporters of the abortion license as you (and, for that matter, by and large I) have of those who support torture (except I do actually see waterboarding as less bad than baby-killing, to be honest), I don't go around calling those folks "maggots" quite so much. And when I do similar things, I regret it.

But, no, I'm not the hall monitor. You're a smart guy who sometimes has things to say, and I honestly don't know why you like to spend half your time acting like little more than a troll.

Re: If Our Lord could call the Pharisees 'ye brood of vipers', then I don't see how referring to truly loathsome people as pigs or maggots is in any way beyond the pale

One thing I find a bit odd in all this is the fact that so many people are shocked, just shocked, that a preacher might preach something from the pulpit that is not all Pollyanna sweetness and light. But the jeremiad has a very old lineage in history, and it's named for the prophet Jeremiah of ancient Judah, not the Rev Jeremiah Wright. If you really do feel that your nation is on the high road to hell, shouldn't you resort to inflammatory rhetoric and even call down the Lord's judgment? The prophets of Israel were not shy about that sort of thing; they didn't sit around singing Kumbiyah when Ahab and Menasseh were partying it up on their oppressed peoples' backs. "God-damn America" has had its precursors in "God-damn the Pope" and "god-damn the King" and "god-damn the Yankees" shouted from pulpits. And yes, some of those causes were neither good nor just, and sometimes the rhetoric inspired awful deeds. And yes, the Rev Wright has gone off the deep end in his weird ideas about AIDS and the like (though that is no worse than the anti-scientific, butt-dumbery associated with Young Earth Creationism). But let's not pretend that this the first time a preacher ever uttered a holy tirade from his pulpit or that the only thing we should hear in church is a dulcet replica of Mr Rogers.

TMoC again: "I honestly don't know why you like to spend half your time acting like little more than a troll."

On sites like this it's always good to have someone who's willing to slap the Hannityites right in the teeth, TMoC. You certainly aren't going to call them on their shit.

Now, as for JonF's post at 8:02 - well done. But there's nothing wrong with damning the Yankees. The Yankees suck. Especially that bastard Jeter.

I hope every Catholic disowns their church for their refusal to purge their clergy of pedophiles until they absolutely had to.
I hope every Mormon and every Jew turns on their rabbis and ministers when they are found to be anti-American.
Of course I don't hope that.
Who hopes to live in an intolerant, unforgiving, narrow-minded world of jingoistic morons and simpletons - other than Rush Limbaugh, Roger Ailes, Sean Hannity, and a few hundred other millionaire media demagogues?
Of course, I know they're not alone. Our schools and churches and synagogues and families have failed. Miserably. This great experiment has failed. Miserably. We are, as a nation, as stupid as we were prior to the Civil War.
I guess we've learned that that proclamation of emancipation wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

fougasseu writes: "Who hopes to live in an intolerant, unforgiving, narrow-minded world of jingoistic morons and simpletons - other than Rush Limbaugh, Roger Ailes, Sean Hannity, and a few hundred other millionaire media demagogues?
Of course, I know they're not alone. Our schools and churches and synagogues and families have failed. Miserably. This great experiment has failed. Miserably. We are, as a nation, as stupid as we were prior to the Civil War."

Well said. I'm a first-generation American, and I'm constantly surprised at how little my contemporaries know about American history and how they're often proud of their ignorance. I think too few people appreciate the actual strengths and achievements of this country, and that so many of us have fallen for the bullshit peddled by cheap, evil, stupid hustlers like Dumbya and Cheney is sickening. Even a crook like Nixon was worth 1000 Dumbyas. Eisenhower was worth a million, but no one would make that trade at any rate.

It's not just that I disagree with their policies and that they're war criminals. It's that they have no connection to the old notion that America was on a forward path, and should be trying to get better, not worse. The country is contracting rather than expanding, and that's the basis for the general sense of disgust and distrust that's out there now.

It's still hard to believe that these assholes have 10 months left in office.

It's been noted before before, but to understand the Right's mounting disappointment with his candidacy it's worth pointing out again that in his attempt to bring new voters into the Democratic tent, Obama's rightward outreach is primarily stylistic rather than substantive.

What? How can the Right's disappointment be mounting? Obama's rhetoric in the primary has been more rightward than anything offered in his voting record - as such, any legitimate disappoint should have peaked half a year ago.

Also, the 'unusually respectful(by liberal standards)' jab shows a lack of class, as well as startling dishonesty and/or perspective regarding conservative rhetoric in the last few decades. Nice try, Ross.

Jeff said:I know I am not a racist, I know Wright is, I'm just not sure about Obama. In the end he is an anti-American socialist victim pimp and that is why I'll not vote for him.

Why is it you progressives always put words in peoples mouths just so you can shoot down those strawmen ?

Yes, why bother, considering all the overcooked rhetoric in such close proximity? Breathtaking, really.

As for your contribution to the AQ/Iran debate, the pittance of examples provided from the whole of the 9/11 Commission leads me to wonder whether a similar perusal with AQ/Pakistan links in mind would be a bit more fruitful. Probably so. Perhaps when McCain makes a similar gaffe regarding those nuclear-armed terrorist-enablers, maybe then we'll see a similar action by his partisans to back up his foreign policy image. Also, your link did nothing to change the fact that Lieberman did correct McCain, and the latter did apologize and explain that he'd 'misspoken' at the time. So all those subsequent occasions when he's reiterated those words, one can conclude either he's in the throes of senescence, or he's lying. Your choice.

I don't think you could be more wrong. A large part of the reason is the different histories of the "black" and "white" churches in this country, which is obviously tied to the different histories of the respective members, but the politicization in black churches is MUCH more predominant than in white churches. I'm sure there are white churches preaching the equivalent of black liberation theology, but you would be hard pressed to find very many of any size. The ones you did find would very likely be liberal churches, not conservative ones.

What would be the white equivalent of black liberation theology? There would simply be no reasonable justification for it to exist. The predestination element found in BLT is simply the 'stranger in my own country' experience of the black community transmuted into a spiritual message. Religion, FBOFW, under-girds the black community, and the polemical nature of BLT rhetoric is due to the marriage of issues in one body in a manner alien to whites familiar with separate religious and secular avenues. Issues where religion and politics intersect in white churches, i.e. abortion, are hotbeds of invective of equal or greater intensity than any seen in BLT. GWB has shown solidarity with pro-lifers, yet none would assume this to be an endorsement of the radical elements of this movement prone to violent acts. It's simply understood -- yet no such free pass is given to Obama, in that white folks can't seem to compare the politico-religious nature of BLT, with its overblown, exclusionary rhetoric, with that of evangelicals who talk of spiritual warfare regarding issues such as abortion and gay marriage. This lack of perspective is even more egregious in that, for all the thundering of Cone, its hard to pinpoint tangible destruction caused by any of his bluster, whereas evangelical extremism, in rare instances, has led to tragedy.

though that is no worse than the anti-scientific, butt-dumbery associated with Young Earth Creationism

JonF -- I mostly agree about Wright, in the Jeremiah bits. Saying "God damn America" is still (like Falwell and Robertson) right after 9/11 still strikes me as wrong in the "Tower of Siloam" sense, but it's not absolutely beyond the pale of theodicy. Tactless, but then the prophets were a tactless lot. Let's say that I don't buy Wright, or Falwell, or Robertson, as Jeremiah, though -- but of those, Wright and Falwell come much closer than Robertson (who seems like a businessman slicker with a layer of pietry smeared on like make up).

I do think the "blacks-first, screw-whitey" aspects of his theology are problematic (or, at least if "black conservatism" of this sort is ok, what precisely is so wrong with Steve Sailer, assuming we don't actually think blacks are the special chosen people of God -- not completely axiomatically false, since He picked the Jews once upon a time, but not a very post-Enlightenment proposition, either), but I have to disagree here. Thinking the government invented AIDS or intentionally spreads crack to people has more practical consequences of paranoia than being wrong about rather abstract science. Most people who do believe in evolution don't know anything about it, or draw any practical or even theoretical implications from it -- while I sort of think that if I thought the government was ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL ME, I'd be at least a little inclined, even if this was a compartmentalized, one-day-a-week belief, to act a little differently.

Heck, it might even be good action in some ways, despite the falsehood of the premise, but it's more consequential.

What JonF and Marquis said, more or less.

It seems to me that both conservatives and liberals agree there is still racial tension in this country. What they disagree on is the path forward.

Liberals are willing to acknowledge that blacks have had a raw deal in this country, and deserve some help to redress the imbalance until things like affirmative action are no longer needed. The problem with the liberal approach is that it relies too much on trying to make every facet of life fair and even.

Every facet of life will never be fair nor even.

Conservatives, on the other hand, live on the opposite side of the spectrum. They feel that because there are no more lynchings and white people aren't allowed to say "nigger", the rest is up to blacks. Again, there's some truth here; black men (as a GROUP, not as individuals) have problems when it comes to responsible parenting, and there are a few other things Bill Cosby and others have pointed out, like spreading the words "nigger", "bitch", and "gangsta" into every facet of black popular culture as if to rub it in white's faces.

However, while a degree of self-reliance and responsibility are needed, situations like de facto school segregation and inner city poverty are challenges that the average white would struggle with, and often fail to overcome, were the situations reversed. Until the fundamental playing field (opportunity, not outcome) is improved, race relations in America will continue to stagnate.

What is needed is a hybrid approach, an alloy, if you like, of liberal governmental responsibility and conservative personal responsibility. Partisan bickering over whether Obama's speech solved race in America is ridiculous. The point of the speech was only to illuminate the issue in a frank, open way, and to provide some political cover against the Wright controversy by contextualizing it as part of the overall issue. As an Obama supporter I'm prone to the latter, but as a thinking individual with a great respect for Goldwater Conservatism, I was never going to just give it to him on the former. He succeeded admirably, and I'm proud of him for it. The reaction of hard core idealogues and the folks at the Corner has been reactionary, partisan, reeking of fear and embarrassing.

Re: Thinking the government invented AIDS or intentionally spreads crack to people has more practical consequences of paranoia than being wrong about rather abstract science.

Here I will disagree with you (while leaving the rest of your post to be replied to tomorrow-- kinda spacey on pain meds after a bike accident today).
Now I happen to think Wright's POV on AIDS is nonsense, but it's not incredible nonsense. To follow him you only have to believe that the US government is motivated by racist (and perhaps homophobic) malice and is willing to propagate an infectious disease among hated minorities. That's a tall order, but not one that overtops the limits of the possible (can you say Tuskegee?). By contrast to buy into Young Earth Creationism you have to drive a stake through the heart of not just biology, but also geology, physics and astronomy-- and maybe even mutilate mathematics and logic itself. That's whole orders of magnitude farther outside the pale than the AIDS conpsiracy stuff. Obviously (I hope) I don't think there was an AIDS conspiracy (except maybe a blundering conspiracy of inaction, well-documented, initially). Nor, inter alia, do I think Bill Clinton ordered multiple murders, or JFK was slain by the take-your-pick-conspiracy-theory. But I could believe those things (with adequate evidence) without having to rearrange my basic mental categories as to how physical reality is organized. To accept that the earth is 6000 years old and everything we see is the result of miracle not natural law processes I'd have to excise from my brain everything I know about science and reason.