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Obama and the Right

19 Mar 2008 10:42 am

Andrew argues that the dismissive reactions to Obama's speech from the right are "palpably fueled by fear and racism." That's unfair and unfounded: As I suggested yesterday in detailing my own qualms about the speech, they're palpably fueled by the fact that Obama is a liberal. The conservative idea of a candidate who's "transformational" on race is someone who sounds like Bill Cosby and works with Ward Connerly, and that just isn't what Obama's doing; hence the Right's disappointment, which in many cases is curdling into dismissiveness and outright dislike. Instead, Obama's trying to be a transformational figure on the following two counts: First, as John McWhorter suggests in his response to the speech, he's trying to free African-American politics from the vise grip of grievance and resentment, breaking away not only from the Sharptons and Jacksons but from the NAACP line of Julian Bond and Kweise Mfume as well, and bringing black Americans out of racialism and radicalism and into the liberal mainstream; at the same time, he's trying to bring the country, which has heretofore tilted right, into the center-left mainstream as well. (The latter achievement, obviously, depends on the former, which is why the Wright affair is potentially so damaging: It calls into question his promise as a new kind of a black politician, without which his hope to be a new kind of American politician more or less collapses.)

It's been noted before before, but to understand the Right's mounting disappointment with his candidacy it's worth pointing out again that in his attempt to bring new voters into the Democratic tent, Obama's rightward outreach is primarily stylistic rather than substantive. He's making a bet that the country is already moving left, and that by taking an unusually respectful (by liberal standards) approach to the ideas and grievances that pushed an earlier generation to the right he can win many of them, and their children, back to the liberalism that once dominated American politics. As everyone from Rod Dreher to Mickey Kaus to Steve Sailer have noted, his practical concessions to present-day conservatism are vanishingly small. But he isn't trying to win over the gang at the Corner, or movement conservatives more generally; he's trying to win over those voters (and writers) who sometimes think that conservatives make a lot of sense, but whose ideological commitments are ultimately malleable. So of course if you're an ideological conservative you don't like what you hear from him; he's talking to everybody else, but not to you.

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Comments (157)

Sooner or later, you and other conservatives are going to have to stop dancing and start answering the question of whether or not you actually believe that black people have been uniquely marginalized and discriminated against in this country, and continue to face those things, or not. I mean I read the Corner and the tend to say "Yes, yes, of course America's history on race is awful, but...", and I read what you have to say here. But I can't really judge the "buts" because I don't believe you really think that black people have been discriminated against. I suspect that you say those things because you feel as if you have to. And we can't have the discussion until you're honest about how you really think towards the issue of black oppression in America.

I mean I am very tired of reading things like the above, because they seem to ignore or trivialize the question of whether black people have good reason to feel grievance or resentment towards their position in American political and social life. All this talk of politics and elections and practicality, the focus on how people think and feel about race and what that means for a presidential election, ignores the question of the truth and legitimacy of those feelings. Somewhere the discussion has to turn to whether you or the gang at the Corner or conservatives writ large actually think that this country has a dispiriting and terrible racial history or not. But when I'm assured that you do, over and over again, in a way that seems purposefully insincere or belittling--when the manner of how you assert that thing undercuts what you're asserting-0 I don't know how to proceed.

Shorter Ross Douthat: conservatives who criticize Obama aren't motivated by racism and fear, they are merely motivated by fear.

Okay, overly snarky. And I agree that (most of) the criticism probably isn't motivated by racism. But some on, let's not miss the forest for the trees: there is a world of difference between, say, Ross' appreciation of the speech, tempered by reservations, and the really over the top and mean spirited criticisms of most conservatives. I mean, most of the response at the corner was down right silly.

And it is true that Obama has gotten much more criticism of his views on race than have white politicians with similar views. There may be (probably are) reasons other than racism for this, but still it suggests a disturbing double standard.

As a conservative, I agree, LarryM, with the characterization of criticism at the Corner as "really over the top and mean spirited." Unfortunately, that characterizes much of so-called conservative discourse these days, from Coulter to Limbaugh. It's enough to make this old-school conservative want to retch.

The problem with Andrew's criticism is that it treats this mean-spiritedness (see his reader's reference to Ingraham), which has been directed at every major Democratic politician since Clinton, as racially motivated for no other reason than that Obama is black. And that, quite simply, betrays the promise that even I, as a conservative who disagrees with Obama on just about every matter of substance, saw in the Obama campaign. What particularly galls me is that Andrew doesn't even bother to cite the language he finds offensive - in other words, he's employing the trick of the most extreme partisans of right and left by lobbing assaults against the nebulous motives of his ideological opponents, for which accusations he is able to provide no support. It's as disgusting, vile, and suppressive of rational political discourse as anything spewed from Ann Coulter's mouth.

Ross, these posts are increasingly pathetic. You really have lost it. Citing Mickey Kaus?

Again, I would suggest you take a deep breath and get back to telling us why banning gay marriage will buttress middle class wages. I'm really looking forward to the comparative statics proof.

The country has heretofore tilted to the right? That's just b.s. and Ross either knows it or should.

Poll after poll shows that a majority of Americans agree with the left on nearly every issue, from health care to the economy. That's why the right has relied on the few niche issues it has for so many years. The right is falling apart because they are out of step with Americans and have been for a long time.

That Bush was re-elected and their losses in 2006 weren't greater is a testament to the power of marketing and nothing more.

Thanks Ross. Just because Obama gives a great speech, doesn't mean we have to bow down on substance.

I'm much more centrist than conservative, but am trying to pay attention to content as well.

There are plenty of people who go to church on Sunday and hear someone talk about God and being a better person of faith. There are even plenty of African Americans who worship that way.

It is neither hateful nor racist to ask why a person would attend a church where there is a lot fo crazy political talk instead of, you know, religion.

I may vote for Obama, but I am worried about his liberal streak.

Back to politics, it was a good enough speech to get him to the convention in very good shape. Thats how its a winner.

My problem with Ross' argument stems from the fact that the Right claims intellectual purity on the public front (TV), but plays in the mud and seems to relish it in other venues (internet, talk radio).

These conservatives say: we don't like Obama because he is liberal. But they do nothing when the extreme elements under the Republican tent smear him for being: Muslim, the anti-Christ, a racist, et cetera, and speak in dog whistle politics which only serves to remind listeners that he is one of "them" (black) as opposed to one of "us" (American).

Ross is, like Andrew, appreciates the ideological framework of conservatism, but when they are noticeably silent on how their side benefits from violently underhanded tactics steeped in racist, or xenophobic fears, they lose credibility.

SavageView,
Micky Kaus is at least somewhat understandable...Steve Sailer, on the other hand, is not.

Ross, you're better than that. There are plenty of interesting and fair-minded conservatives whom you could site but you go in and use the race baiting Sailer to prove your point?

Yikes.

And, oh yeah...I generally agree with almost everyone else in the comments so far.

Obama vs. Connerly

Obama doesn’t fully embrace the views of Connerly, but evidence suggests he doesn’t exactly tow the party line. A reference to an interview with Stephanopoulos reveals a more nuanced view:

"Obama has repeatedly gone on record as a supporter of affirmative action. But "if we have done what needs to be done to ensure that kids who are qualified to go to college can afford it," he said in the ABC interview, then "affirmative action becomes a diminishing tool for us to achieve racial equality in this society."

[He seemed to side with those who think class predominates when he said, "I think that we should take into account white kids who have been disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to have what it takes to succeed."]

I think it’s fair to say that Obama is less concerned about widening the scope of affirmative action, and more so in expanding the opportunities for poor kids to afford college, which is a more centrist position (He advocates tuition tax credits, simplifying the financial aid process, and more). He doesn’t reject affirmative action, and perhaps he should, but I think he takes a more centrist view than Ross acknowledges.

Obama vs. Cosby

Obama hasn’t gone out of his way to criticize the black community on issues like crime and education the way Cosby has. But he has on more than one occasion talked about the need for parents to be more involved in their childrens' education (a central Cosby theme), and he has actually worked as a community organizer to improve living conditions in poor neighborhoods plagued with crime and high unemployment (two more Cosby themes). So I think it’s a bit unfair, Ross, to characterize Obama as the anti-Cosby, when his record shows otherwise.

"The conservative idea of a candidate who's "transformational" on race is someone who sounds like Bill Cosby and works with Ward Connerly,"

This conservative view of race is motivated by, well shucks, racism.

Ross,
The conservative agenda you cite here is essentially about a narrower topic than the speech Sen. Obama has delivered. It’s quite an apolitical program, focusing on how marginalized people need to change—a remarkably shallow response to the questions raised by this debate. The point is not to deny that this perspective has some merit, even importance, on its own terms, but it’s a myopic and facile vision that hardly deserves the appellation “transformation.”

It may change individuals whom it reaches, but the system, and those too caught up in it to encounter or be persuaded by this perspective, will not be changed. Further, even the successes of this agenda of moral instruction will have to struggle more than they ought, and more than many of their fellow citizens ever did, in a conservative socioeconomic system and an in-some-ways conservative culture that offer them little support. A self-sufficiency depending on unacknowledged asceticism and that only allows scraping by is a poor measure of freedom. Lives of pain, chaos, and deprivation are thus too convenient a foil for conservatives, who seem not to realize that escaping terrible fates does not mean one lives in a supportive community. Tp create one (only partly through government), for vulnerable people and for everyone else, is part of what many of us on the left think “transformation” is supposed to mean.

If that was a "liberal" speech about race in America rather than a "conservative" speech about race in America, then conservatives are on the wrong side of history. And by wrong side of history I mean the wrong side if 1964.

And the notion that that speech was stylistic instead of substantive is ridiculous. It became substantive when he chose to tackle the issue head on rather than to duck away or simply throw Wright under the bus or take the easy way out. Stylistic would have been some Clintonian parsing of terms to try and appease everyone without doing anything. Instead of giving sound bits, he gave, you know, SUBSTANCE.

Conservatives have a ridiculously troubled history with race, and clearly you all are continuing to duck and hide on this one, crying reverse racism, saying an honest speech is a "liberal" speech, anything to hide your uncomfortablenesses. If you were honest, as Obama is, you would address that troubled history -- but instead it's easier to hide behind labels like "liberal" and "style over substance." And that's just obfuscatory and cowardly.

I found Obama's speech to be magnificent, and at the same time I'm pretty sure his politics are simply wrong. Too bad he's running for the highest political office in the land; otherwise, I would be a huge supporter.

I have to say that I worry a bit. Everyone has fallen into the trap of treating Obama's candidacy as the measurement of race relations in the country (Andrew Sullivan, I'm looking at you). Worse, because we've gotten to the point where his candidacy is simply assumed to be a mirror into our soul, it's now an unavoidable fact that an Obama loss will amplify racial animus just because.

I have to say that I'm pretty indignant that the media gatekeepers have put us in this situation. Rather than politics, politicians and issues, I now must take into account the more fundamental questions of cohesion, disorder, and the affecting perceptions of injustice which may or may not infect a generation of my fellow citizens.

Thanks guys, really; now, if Obama loses, no matter why he loses, we are all going to lose in a fundamental, pre-political way.

On racial forgiveness, it's now Obama or bust. I'd say screw it and vote on politics, but I'm increasingly doubtful that it would be the wise thing to do.

And one last point, the narrative has successfully been woven in the press that Rev. Wright is a racist, that his entire history of preaching was hate.

It's a politically convenient story to tell when the Right wants to "darken" Obama up. But I ask you: we have seen 3-4 clips of 36 years on the pulpit...how many sermons did these clips draw from, 2?

It is disingenuous for people who hadn't heard of Rev. Wright two months ago to come on TV or blogs and profess to be able to speak with authority on the nature of his sermoning for over 36 years.

Obama said he wasn't in church when those clips on TV were said. You can believe him or not, that is your choice.

Obama said he knew Wright was a fiery orator, but that he also knew Wright NOT to be the bigot and racist he's being depicted on TV. You can believe him or not, but if not, do not go out there and profess to know this man based on 3 youtube clips, because that is entirely disingenuous.

I don't believe you really think that black people have been discriminated against

I'm sure there are some idiots at the Corner or somewhere (under a rock) who really don't think so. Ross, and most conservatives of interest, obviously know that black people have been discriminated against. Slavery was a terrible evil, and conservatives, when they speak beyond the contemporary moment, often use the Biblical language of Lincoln and speak in terms of America's original sin. The problem is that asking what's changed since 1950, or looking at the contemporary sources of some of the ills plaguing the black community seems to make some people assume you "don't really think that black people have been discriminated against." Bill Cosby is presumbly well aware black people have been discriminated against, and is (last I heard) a Kucinich man -- but the things that seem to inspire some of this doubt about our belief are not very far from a lot of what he's saying.

This is a problematic tactic, and I guess it happens on the right too -- when conservatives say "Yes, X happened, and still happens (but to a much much much much lesser extent, by orders of magnitude, and Y is a bigger problem now, and Z won't fix Y (or even X)", liberals sometimes hear "X isn't a real problem." Because the statement doesn't spend all its money on emoting about the badness of X, it's assumed that granting X is just a lie. I suppose that SOME pro-choice people actually mean it when they say abortion is horrible and awful and even that they think it's murder (which the Catholic politicians tend to grudgingly and half-heartedly do), but given that their policy preferences are almost always for increasing abortion and leaving it as unrestricted as possible, even when the restrictions are popular -- well, I mostly think they are lying through their teeth. But there is a difference here -- conservatives are arguing (for the most part) about means, not ends, these days, on this point. We'd like to improve the lot of black Americans too, we just don't think Obama's political program's going to do that at all. His election might do something useful; his policies will make things worse, if we had to guess.

Poll after poll shows that a majority of Americans agree with the left on nearly every issue, from health care to the economy.

The country agrees with "the left" (moderately, while tax rates are low) on a host of bread and butter economics issues. That's true -- though jack up tax rates or put those programs in place and some of that will change. However, social and moral issues aren't "niches" -- the "what's the matter with Kansas" argument is an insulting pseudo-Marxist piece of propaganda that works by claiming mass false consciousness.

JA-

I'd agree with you that some of the rhetoric about the speech is overblown (Andrew Sullivan is not exactly known for his restraint), but I also don't think his speech should be easily dismissed either, simply because one doesn't agree with his politics.

I guess I'd ask one question: When was the last time race was directly, honestly, and meaningfully addressed by a public figure in this country? When was the last time someone described actual, existing problems and articulated a vision for overcoming those problems? Certainly not during my lifetime.

Now, it's not that I'm expecting everyone to vote for Obama, and everyone will have their own rational decisions. And maybe it's naive of me to want to separate the speech from the political race -- clearly they're inextricable. But until conservatives actually meaningfully articulate these problems, instead of abetting them, and until they actually articulate a way forward, instead of keeping us in the past, I think they're ceding this ground to Obama. And they should step aside gracefully.

@ Freddie:

Sure, grievance or anger are a legitimate emotional response to the racial history of the US, but how an individual acts out on that very understandable grievance or anger makes all the difference. Some of that anger and grievance, acted out in negative ways, hurts the very community that is meant to be helped. Say, furthering conspiracy theories about AIDS by pastors such as Wright and Obama's rationalizing such behavior by Wright's experiences in a more racist past.

I see now that for Obama personal responsibility will play not even one small part in his grandiose verbal plans for healing our nation of it's racial and economic ills, and instead, it is all to be feelings, emotions, grievance, the correct narrative, and large social programs. I simply don't agree.

Also, the leftism I am supposed to embrace as a sort of racial salve only leads to economic policies which hurt poor inner city black communities. Why would you want to open up any business in that community if you are going to be treated as the enemy? I see it here in Chicago all the time. When a city Wal-Mart opened up, the usual actors were out in force against it, but thousands applied for only a few hundred jobs. How sad. No, I don't think Wal-Mart is the answer, but it's clear the Chicago-Dem machine isn't either.

As I suggested yesterday in detailing my own qualms about the speech, they're palpably fueled by the fact that Obama is a liberal.

And since liberals hate America, Obama does too. The most you argument says is that the Cornerites aren't any more hydrophobic about Obama than they would be about a white man. Is that really the strongest defense you can make of them? If so, perhaps you need to find some new playmates.

Great post, Ross.

Freddie,

See Sailer's posts on Michelle Obama. Her sense of resentment isn't due to America's legacy of slavery but due to her being the recipient of Affirmative Action. This is one of the problems with the liberal approach to race in America: yo advocate policies which increase the feelings of resentment among blacks. Another problem is that America isn't simply a black and white country: Americans come in many shades and flavors, and most are the descendants of immigrants that came here long after abolition and had no role in Jim Crow segregation. The endless grievances from black Americans have limited appeal for them.

Wow ... Wright is clearly an anti-American racist and anyone who denies that is clearly lying to himself ...
That said I am not afraid of Mr. Wrights "blame whitey, get whitey" nonsense, I have the Second Amendment to protect myself from the final solution he would certainly wish up many Americans of pallor.
I know I am not a racist, I know Wright is, I'm just not sure about Obama. In the end he is an anti-American socialist victim pimp and that is why I'll not vote for him.

Who would have thought that 20 years of faithful church attendance would hurt your chances to be president?

The lesson: If you want to be president, better go to the right church!

Mike ?
"And since liberals hate America, Obama does too."

Why is it you progressives always put words in peoples mouths just so you can shoot down those strawmen ?

Does it really make you feel better about yourself ?

You are simply an ignorant fool trying to scream shut up to ideas that you can't refute.

Do you really want to defend Wright ? Do you want to stand by that G*d Damn America, Chickens Come Home to Roost, US Govt created AIDS to kill blacks piece of intellectual garbage ?

Please say yes ... so we can ignore your nonsense as the weak intellectual tea that it is ...

but when they are noticeably silent on how their side benefits from violently underhanded tactics steeped in racist, or xenophobic fears, they lose credibility.

You think people on the left ever lose credibility with us when they play on lies and insults about how racist every conservative is, or how there's no compassion if you don't agree with their _means_ for bettering the lives of the poor?

Herb,

so someone going to Hagee's church for 20 years would be ok with you ?

Really ?

quit bringing a pen-knife to the intellectual gun fight ...

fish in a barrel ...

Marquise,
The basic dynamic with regard to social/cultural issues in this nation, as many conservatives themselves have stated, is that the left has "won" the cultural war on the streets - whatever people SAY they want, by and large what they demonstrate by how they life their lives is that most (not by any means all) people want a broadly secular culture with (for example, though not germane to the current thread) few restrictions on sexual autonomy.

Now, that's not the WHOLE story, of course. In part as a REACTION to that victory, many social issues do have a lot of political salience. And on some (not all, by any means) "social issues" there is majority support for the "socially conservative" position. (But even there, plenty of people who, while suspicious of the Democrats on social issues, are equally distressed by what they perceive (correctly IMO) as the extreme position of the "religious right." I mean, there ARE a good number of social conservatives who really do want to return to a more traditional view of women's roles in society. That POV doesn't get anywhere near majority support.)

Of course, with regard to race, the dynamic is more complex. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the center of gravity of public opinion is a bit to the right of the sensibility displayed in Obama's speech (I'm not sure that it is, but it may be). But that majority, if it exists, consists of a combination of (1) people like the Marquise, and Ross, who genuinely believe that mainstream liberal policy prescriptions regarding race are a counter productive way of dealing with our very real history of racism, (2) a fair number of racists, and (3) people who aren't racists, but don't have any genuine interest in dealing with the historic legacy of racism, and who are happy to use people in groups one and (especially) two to build a political coalition to acheive other ends.

I have no problem with the notion that there can and should be a dialog between people in category one and people with a more traditional "liberal" attitude on race. And, say what you will regarding Obama, but all indications are that he would welcome that dialog.

But pardon me for not having much time for people in categories two and three.

Fred,
It's worth pointing out that the last two sentences of your post contain ideas that were explicitly mentioned in Obama's speech.

One question I have, in general, is where the meme that Michelle Obama is seething with resentment comes from. Does it come from her one line about being proud to be an American for the first time? If there's more than that, please share it as I've missed it (I'm not being snarky, I'm really not aware of anything else). If there's not more than that, is it really fair to completely assume you understand a person from one thing they've said? It would be as if we were to assume that McCain is a doddering ignoramus because of his repeated comments that Iran is training Al Qaeda. (Note: I don't think McCain is a doddering ignoramus.)

LarryM,

I'm sure Obama would talk to category one people, but the fact that Obama clearly supports and has conversations with people in categories 2 and 3 and has for nearly 20 years makes his category one conversations meaningless ...

nice try ... Wright is a racist anti-American, Obama supports him verbally and economically ...
Obama therefore enables a racist in my book ...

It is not guilt by association, it is guilt by endorsement, both verbal and in the form of checks ...

"I am not afraid of Mr. Wrights "blame whitey, get whitey" nonsense, I have the Second Amendment to protect myself from the final solution he would certainly wish up many Americans of pallor.
. . .
I know I am not a racist, I know Wright is, I'm just not sure about Obama. In the end he is an anti-American socialist victim pimp"

I just hope this is satire. Otherwise, I weep.

This is one of the problems with the liberal approach to race in America: yo advocate policies which increase the feelings of resentment among blacks.

Conservatives are failing to represent the full perspective of Obama's views on race and affirmative action.

The following is the Cosby-perspective Ross is looking for from Obama. Obama told

"Any solution to our unemployment catastrophe must arise from us working creatively within a multicultural, interdependent, and international economy. Any African-Americans who are only talking about racism as a barrier to our success are seriously misled if they don't also come to grips with the larger economic forces that are creating economic insecurity for all workers--whites, Latinos, and Asians."

Joe,

your ignorance about AQ and Iran is showing ... McCain is not the one looking like an idiot here ...

Jeff-

lol. Here's $5. You're a good guy. Now you're a liberal. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION. Both verbal and in cash.

Jeff,
Given that McCain has restated himself and admitted he got it wrong, I guess i have good company.

Joe,

read ...

http://www.meforum.org/article/670

please don't forget to load your gun next time you jump into a fight ...

how can we get past this country's racial wounds when black leaders like Barak Obama won't apologize for the shabby way they've treated whites in this country? All that anger! I mean black racism against whites is just as bad white racism, right?

Let's be honest, the Corner kids write for a magazine that was founded upon upholding the principle and practice of white supremacy, and like true conservatives they have boldly stood athwart history and yelled "stop", and not changed one iota since the golden age of Buckley's writing about "the advanced race's" right to "to impose superior mores" upon the "backward" negro race.

I really try to believe thoughful writers on the right like Ross who again and again claim how unfair it is to tar conservatives as racists or mysoginists, but in the next sentence he claims the test for meeting racial correctness on the right is how well said person appeals to the paranoia of certified lunatics like a Steve Sailer or a Rod Dreher (Why wasn't Robert Stacy McCain consulted on this?) All it takes is a brief stroll through the comments on this or any "mainstream" right-wing blog regarding the Wright/Obama affair to realize just how far the Right was come since the heydey of Jim Crow, which is to say not far at all. (Blacks are always crying victim! its so unfair!)The National Review believed in White Supremacy then, and it does now.

Is it just me or is Ross completely out of touch and foolish when writing on race?

dear leader nyc

so all conservatives are racist ? what about Condi ?

come on, don't you know one conservative who's not a racist ?

come on, think ...

pin head ...

Marquis,

And Jeff comes along to reinforce my point. For every sincere conservative making honest and nuanced arguments about race, you get someone like Jeff coming along and ruining your credibility.

How Insane ...

continue to do that for 20 years and then maybe you can claim I'm a liberal via endorsement ...

otherwise I think you proved my point ...

Why is it you progressives always put words in peoples mouths just so you can shoot down those strawmen ?

Speaking of strawmen...

How Insane ...

since you clearly don't think I'm a good guy ... and you actually didn't send me any money I'm not sure I'm eligible to be considered a liberal via association or endorsement ...

:(

nice try ... Wright is a racist anti-American, Obama supports him verbally and economically ...
Obama therefore enables a racist in my book

Speaking of strawmen...

Sooner or later, you and other conservatives are going to have to stop dancing and start answering the question of whether or not you actually believe that black people have been uniquely marginalized and discriminated against in this country,

Yes. Who has said otherwise?


and continue to face those things, or not.

It is doubtful contemporary racial discrimination has been of much consequence during the last thirty-five years. Thomas Sowell has been saying this for decades and Edward Banfield was saying it before that. Who has been evasive on this question?

There is a different problem blacks face: the quality of certain public goods (law enforcement, schooling) is quite poor in inner-city slums. How to improve them can be a vexed question, most particularly because doing so would injure certain vested interests (e.g. public employee unions).

your ignorance about AQ and Iran is showing ... McCain is not the one looking like an idiot here

Speaking of flat-out ignorance...

Um. . .Jeff, you do know that the article you linked to discusses a potential Iranian role in 9/11, not in training AQI today, right? You do know that McCain corrected his comments about Iran training AQI, right?

Leaving aside your heated ad hominem rhetoric, the reason I asked the question was because I was trying to find further evidence of Michelle Obama's anti-American resentment that has been posited as a fact. I asked this question sincerely, and my McCain parallel was meant to be illustrative not accusatory.

If you have further evidence of Michelle Obama's alleged resentment, I would appreciate it. Claims about your supposedly fully loaded intellectual guns doesn't really answer the question.

The underlying issue here is Wright’s following of James Cone’s Afrocentric Black Liberation theology. See Spengler's recent remarks on this The peculiar theology of black liberation , inclding this Cone quote:

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

Wright has been explicit in accepting Cone; its hard to see that Obama, being as bright as he is, does not at least know about this stance, which is clearly at the core of the Trinity Church. In being a member of this church Obama aided his South Side Chicago political career but seriously jeopardized a presidential run.

If John McCain had attended the mirror image of Trinity Church, a right-wing one with a minister who followed David Duke’s view, he would have been long ago properly made burnt toast by the media and people. McCain might argue that he was highly critical of his ministers, which would have gone over like a lead balloon with the public.

LarryM,

you want nuance ... like all conservatives are racists ? oh, sorry thats liberal nuance ...

So apparently you don't like the nuance that Obama supports a racist and supports those who use racism for their own cynical benefit.

Please explain to me the nuance in G*d Damn America ?

And please don't go trying to smear any of the other commentators with what I said ...

Jeff,

I didn't say all conservatives are racists, just the ones and write for the National Review.

Read. nitwit. Or perhaps you'd just like to enlighten me as to how Steve Sailer is merely a "racial realist" and not a psuedo-scientific crank peddling the 21st century equivelent of phrenology.

Gigs up boys!

It's no use denying it. We knew this day would come. One day, the bright, shining light of Truth would find the dark crevices of our souls and reveal the contents to the world we could only deceive for so long.

Curse this relentless seeker of truth! Curse his honesty! Curse his heartache!!

I would damn him to hell, but I don't actually want him spending eternity with us.

Well, OK. I for one am relieved. Living a lie was wearing me down. I'm glad he did it.

It feels so liberating to finally get out of the closet!

Mike ...

Did Douthat say "liberals hate America, so Obama hates America" ...

Nope ... so that is an example of a strawman ...

get it ?

Jeff,

I wasn't talking to you. Please let the adults continue their conversation.

Even conceding all that Ross says . . . Does anyone believe that John "al-Qaeda in Iran" McCain is capable of engaging a difficult issue like race at the intellectual level that Obama did, not to mention personally drafting a speech of that caliber? I'll go ahead and suggest the answer: No.

If you're with me so far . . . I submit, in light of the last 8 years, that you should always favor the candidate most able to understand and grapple the issues a President will face. And you should make that choice even if there is a more ideologically congenial but less competent choice available.

Here, though, the choice for Ross isn't even that difficult. It's not a matter of choosing a candidate better able to handle the job over the candidate he agrees with on a gut-level. Ross doesn't agree with McCain on a gut level! It's a choice between two candidates who will not purse Ross's ideological agenda. Can he honestly favor the dithering old fool over the talented and intelligent liberal?

Dear Leader ...

who the F is Steve Sailer ... I don't remember saying he was "merely a "racial realist"" ...
I don't recall ever saying anything about him ...

you got me though ... had to go look up phrenology ... cool word ...

Do you have a word for the study of determining someones racist tendancies based on their skin color and political leanings ? you know white conservatives = racist ...

Oh, yeah liberal intellectual ...

Obama AGREES with conservatives but they are NOT LISTENING:

He has said:

"African-Americans who are only talking about racism as a barrier to our success are seriously misled..."

"Any solution to our unemployment catastrophe must arise from us working creatively within a multicultural, interdependent, and international economy."

"Now we have to take this same language [as "the right wing, the Christian right]--these same values that are encouraged within our families...[and apply them to a larger society.] Let's talk about creating a society, not just individual families, based on these values..."

I know it's tempting, but painting Obama as a complete leftist-liberal is simply not accurate.

bah, typo patrol:

grapple with* the issues

purse = pursue

Obama has just ended any chance he had of winning the presidency with this speech.

Obama has done well in large measure for pushing a nebulous mantra of change with a strong undertone that said change will specifically move America into a post racial greviance era.

So when it came to light that Obama's spirtual mentor is a raving, conspiratorial racist that would make Sharpton blush, it left a deep injury in Obama's image.

After that he had to distance himself from racialists like Wright as well as he could, and condemn them in no uncertain terms as being beyond the pale.

Instead he gave a speech where he accorded the extremist fringes of the black racialist movement a seat at the table. Sure he said he didn't agree with all of Wright's views, but frankly in according such lunacy any respect he now has conflated himself with them.

Presuming he wins the primary, Democrat voters will be scratching their heads this November unable to understand what happened to their golden boy...

I am intrigued by the overall reluctance of many smarter conservatives to give Obama his complete - and well earned - due for the points he made in his magnificent speech. I think it shows how flummoxed they are by Obama and the threat he represents to them.

It seems to me that "reasonable" conservatives (i.e. non-numbskulls and mudslingers, in which category I'd place Ross D.) have particularly struggled with how to understand Obama. They respect his style, and sense in him something large and potentially transformative. Clearly he's a political force -- but this makes him dangerous given that he is a Democrat. (the numbskull, talk radio folks feel the same way, but as would be predicted are less tentative in resorting right away to the usual slurs and bs we expect from them).

So - if you are a conservative, whaddya do? Stop worrying and learn to love Obama, or hope for some slim reed upon which a "principled" opposition to Obama can be based?

The Wright flap gave Ross and his similarly-situated folks their first break. It allowed them to say, in sober fashion, "wait a minute, this Obama isn't all he pretends to be," even though their whole argument is based on Obama's guilt by association for comments and view points he has otherwise disavowed. (in this regard, Ross has not effectively rebutted comments by Glenn Greenwald and others that conservatives give their own politicians a pass when they associate with Old Testament "God's punishing us for our sins" hoo-ha comments by religious right types, but purport that the Wright situation is "different" due to Obama's membership with the Wright church - again, in spite of Obama's easy-to-grasp comments to the contrary).

Next came the speech. Ross et al. cannot deny the power, effectiveness, and intelligence of it, but they point to it and say "see? he's nothing but a liberal," and suddenly they've got the rationale they've been feeling in the dark for. This will be one of the memes they run with, although the different wings of the Right will handle it differently - the temperate conservatives will express "disappointment" in Obama (i.e. that Gerson op-ed in the Post today), while the fire-breathers will, as always, go further and suggest Obama's a "Black Panther/kill whitey" type.

I think Ross was a lot closer to the truth when he admitted that the whole Obama phenomenon is like a left-wing Reagan. We of course know that, like him or not, Reagan was a force for change in the U.S. and remains a significant touchstone to this day (so much so that the haggiographic Right can't find enough things to name after him). So it must be difficult for conservatives to comprehend the same force coming at them from the other side of the aisle - and seeing it come at them, like a tidal wave . . .

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the center of gravity of public opinion is a bit to the right of the sensibility displayed in Obama's speech (I'm not sure that it is, but it may be)

LarryM, I think you're usually pretty sensible. But when it comes to both policy and feelings, the majority of public opinion is a long long way to the right of Obama here, never mind the public pieties of the commentariat. Steve Sailer (without the math) is closer to a lot of real-world opinion, I think, outside the liberal northeast.

Prior to the revelation that Obama's mentor and advisor is an abject racist, many conservatives had a problem with McCain. After this little dust-up, they will drop their concerns with him and show up at the polls to vote AGAINST Barack Hussein Obama, who they will now rightly perceive as just another grievance-mongering black Democrat. Remember, conservatives are not moved by CBS, CNN, or the New York Times, so these media outlets' spin on Barack's little speech will have no effect on them.

One piece of the puzzle just fell into place for McCain during this last week.

All that remains is to get Obama to speak in specific terms about policy, and a majority of moderates will shift to McCain come November. People simply do not want to tax themselves into oblivion by somebody who lies about his intimate affiliations with racists.

There is an annoying sense of entitlement that oozes from this post. On what grounds should "conservatism" merit any more respect than Obama has granted it? Look at the complete wreckage "conservatives" have made of our country in the last decade.

And I'm trying to figure out why Obama should have to pass some sort of Ward Connerly litmus test for "conservatives" whose commitment to bringing blacks into the political mainstream has been, at best, tepid, and more often disingenuous. What bullshit!

My view is that many people who have traded on precisely the resentments Obama identified in his speech are feeling a little awkward, even threatened, by his remarks. Cue the dismissive sneer, which only reinforces my point.

And Jeff comes along to reinforce my point. For every sincere conservative making honest and nuanced arguments about race, you get someone like Jeff coming along and ruining your credibility.

Well, this is sort of like how Wright ruins the entire left's credibility, no? I mean, the problem is: in some ways, I actually don't mind Wright. He's wrong about many many things, but he's not a fool or a slick operator, I suspect (an Al Sharpton) -- he's a sincere man with some good (and bad) ideas about God and some powerful (and true in many ways) language of self-improvement that appeals in a way to some traditionalist conservatives. But he's a racist, too, I think it's pretty clear. I'm actually glad Obama isn't dropping him, not just beacuse it's a liability in the general election, but because it shows loyalty I partly admire. BUT. Wright's WRONG about a lot of things, in ways that matter -- and while Obama wants to "have dialog" with category 1, I really don't think that Obama's dedication to Wright means he's ever going to give any credit to any policies here other than the most knee-jerk liberalism. In the end, there's no ned to find "some slim reed upon which a 'principled' opposition to Obama can be based" -- the principle opposition for conservatives is that Obama is a (possibly) nice (if, in fact, rather airy and gassy at times) and intelligent liberal, with considerable charisma. A good man to have as a friend, possibly (if you, like myself, don't mind friends who are ambitious and a bit self-absorbed, but intelligent and decent), but a bad President, by our lights. We're not hunting around to find some secret bad thing about Obama. The weird thing is that his occasional forays into indicating he might consider socioeconomic-based "affirmative action" instead of race quotas tolerable somehow convince us to occasionally imagine he's something other than an intelligent and pleasant man with bad ideas. But I guess given recent politics, left and right, likable people with bad ideas look pretty good in the wrong light?

After this little dust-up, they will drop their concerns with him and show up at the polls to vote AGAINST Barack Hussein Obama, who they will now rightly perceive as just another grievance-mongering black Democrat.

At the end of the day, all you've got here is guilt by association--holding Obama accountable for words he did not say and has otherwise disavowed. Nothing about Obama's own conduct could be accurately described as "grievance-mongering." All in all, it's a pretty thin reed to hang a groundswell of opposition on, and not a particularly Christian one.

There is an annoying sense of entitlement that oozes from this post. On what grounds should "conservatism" merit any more respect than Obama has granted it? Look at the complete wreckage "conservatives" have made of our country in the last decade.

Gosh. And after LBJ and Carter, why on earth would anyone have given any respect to any liberal?

I guess we should just make David Broder God-emperor of Doonesbury and call it a day.

Ronald Reagan showed himself to be a deliberate, calculating racist when he talked about "welfare queens with Cadillacs." Ross Douthat worships Ronald Reagan, and when he issued his own denunciation of a poor black woman as a "welfare duchess" because she had a large TV, he was accepting his place in the Giant Repiglican Hate Machine.

Here's a guarantee. If Obama is the Dem nominee, this campaign will be as ugly as any in American history. The Giant Repiglican Hate Machine will be in overdrive, from the idiots on talk radio all the way up to the "intellectual" leaders like Ross and Jonah and Bloody Billy Kristol. No matter how vicious it gets as far as sliming Obama as an America-hating Muslim plant, none of these people will see anything amiss. Oh, they may (disingenuously) point to a comment or two along the way as "going too far," but they'll be sniggering as they do it.

Yeah, the right will be doing a whole lot of sniggering n this campaign, if you know what I mean and I think you do. Snigger this, snigger that. It will be one big sniggerfest on Fox and at the National Review and on Limbaugh, Savage, and all of the other hate-filled venues the wingnuts have at their disposal.

If it works for them, then GOD DAMN AMERICA. And I don't even believe in god. But if this sort of shameful crap still works in this country in 2008 then we should be deeply ashamed of ourselves.

Those of us who are still capable of such shame, that is. I'm not sure that Repiglicans - who are now the party of torture, after all - are now anything but cheerleaders for evil, stupid bastards.

You wrote: It calls into question his promise as a new kind of a black politician, without which his hope to be a new kind of American politician more or less collapses.)

Sen. Obama has never promised to be a new kind of black politician. He promised to pursue a new kind of politics, one that rose above the bitter divisiveness of the past. The media (and obviously people like you) labeled him a new kind of black politician different from Jackson and Sharpton.

"Instead he gave a speech where he accorded the extremist fringes of the black racialist movement a seat at the table."

Here's thing: what are we supposed to do with racists, black or white? Are we to shun, and allow their resentment and hate to fester under cover of their rejection? Or do we attempt to bring those folks back into the fold, reject those racist statements, and attempt to address the roots of those sentiments?

I don't know the answer, and I am pretty sure no one else does either. As a society, we have been officially shunning racism and talk of race for decades now and yet racism still exists in strength at the fringes and just under the surface, as this whole ordeal has demonstrated. It may be that you can never eliminate racism, since ideas can never be destroyed, merely marginalized.

It's funny that TMoC is so out of touch that he thinks David Broder - one of the worst apologists for the Bushpig Regime - has some sort of liberal credentials left. Amazing.

From Andrew, this Huckabee quote is worth posting here. I'm no longer surprised when 99% of conservatives take the swill their leaders give them at face value, because I've been paying attention to conservatives for the past couple of decades. But at least Mike Huckabee, for all of his faults, isn't a complete idiot:

"[Y]ou can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do. It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what ... Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable, years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that...

As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack — and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you — we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names..."

At the end of the day, all you've got here is guilt by association--holding Obama accountable for words he did not say and has otherwise disavowed.

People will decided for themselves whether this association matters to them, or in the context of my last post, CONSERVATIVES and MODERATES will decide if it matters. You are a Democrat; you are entirely irrelevant to the November election because nothing will ever keep you from voting for a Democrat. You are already factored into the equation, so what you believe really doesn’t matter one iota (assuming you’re a Democrat).

Nothing about Obama's own conduct could be accurately described as "grievance-mongering."

You mean, besides attending a grievance-mongering black theology church for 20 years, whose racist pastor you’ve stated has been extremely prominent in your moral and spiritual development.

Speaking of thin reeds ....

All in all, it's a pretty thin reed to hang a groundswell of opposition on, and not a particularly Christian one.

I am agnostic, not Christian, although I’d just add that I am not an anti-Christian bigot (i.e., I am not a postmodern liberal). (Interesting, however, that you would assume I was Christian. Mmmm ...) Once again, what Democrats and liberals think about this matter is completely irrelevant. Barack’s long, intimate association with a black racist has ensured that conservatives will show up November. Now all that’s left is for him to recite an endless litany of liberal policy shibboleths and he will lose the majority of moderates.

I’m feeling better about this election every day ....

Freddie, are you still reading this thread?

In response to your question:

"Sooner or later, you and other conservatives are going to have to stop dancing and start answering the question of whether or not you actually believe that black people have been uniquely marginalized and discriminated against in this country, and continue to face those things, or not."

I think the answer is complex.

1) I think most conservatives think that the answer to your question is yes.

2) My guess is that most conservatives think that the amount of improvement over time is much greated than most liberals think it is.

3) Being conservatives, they are distrustful of state programs to ameliorate the remaining problem. I agree that they don't have many good alternatives to state programs, but to a conservative, the absense of any active alternative doesn't mean that government intervention > inaction.

David Broder - one of the worst apologists for the Bushpig Regime - has some sort of liberal credentials left. Amazing.

Oh heavens no. Broder has no credentials, left or right. He's precisely the kind of brain-dead insider centrism without a compass of any kind you'd get if you decided that Bush invalidates all conservative programmes and ideas because he's (1) from the more conservative party and (2) ostensibly (though seldom in much practice) had a "conservative" program but ALSO that LBJ + Carter invalidates liberalism. That is, LBJ and Carter screwed up the country in a huge number of ways, so liberalism is clearly all junk, and conservatism is clearly junk because Bush was an awful president. So I guess we're left with Broderism, or something.

Catalonia writes: "Once again, what Democrats and liberals think about this matter is completely irrelevant. Barack’s long, intimate association with a black racist has ensured that conservatives will show up November. Now all that’s left is for him to recite an endless litany of liberal policy shibboleths and he will lose the majority of moderates."

It's conservatives who won't matter in this election, chuckles. Few of them were ever going to vote for Obama - or Hillary, for that matter.

The long association of conservatives with an admittedly racist party - the GOP - hasn't seemed to dim their luster in your eyes. And yes, Lee Atwater and Ken Mehlman both admitted the GOP was deliberately racist, so deal with it or continue lying to yourself.

Wright's damning of America was no different from what countless numbers of wingnut theologians do every single Sunday, but few conservatives have a problem with that. America-hating scumbags like Falwell and Robertson were elbow-deep in the intestines of the Reagan administration and both Bush administrations, but how many cons expressed any reservations about that?

The silence was deafening.

I do think less of Obama due to his association with this church, but that's not nearly enough to close the gap between him and John McCain, who threw away his principles and learned to love torture and maggots like Hagee and Falwell.

It's laughable to read people try and assert this is simply guilt-by-association, as though Wright is just some guy Obama knows. Below is an excerpt from Rolling Stone, that bastion of conservative thought, talking about the depth of the "association." Before posting that, though, one very important thing is not being discussed here, and that's the perversion of the pulpit in this church by "preaching" politics, yet that is close to the primary focus of this church and many like it, particularly those adhering to black liberation theology. Why would we elect a man to be President who is a member of such a church? Also, the leftists here keep decrying the racism of The Corner, yet I haven't seen a single example of this racism cited.

"Wright takes the pulpit here one Sunday and solemnly, sonorously declares that he will recite ten essential facts about the United States. "Fact number one: We've got more black men in prison than there are in college," he intones. "Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!" There is thumping applause; Wright has a cadence and power that make Obama sound like John Kerry. Now the reverend begins to preach. "We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. . . . We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. . . . We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. . . . We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!" The crowd whoops and amens as Wright builds to his climax: "And. And. And! GAWD! Has GOT! To be SICK! OF THIS SHIT!"

"This is as openly radical a background as any significant American political figure has ever emerged from, as much Malcolm X as Martin Luther King Jr. Wright is not an incidental figure in Obama's life, or his politics. The senator "affirmed" his Christian faith in this church; he uses Wright as a "sounding board" to "make sure I'm not losing myself in the hype and hoopla." Both the title of Obama's second book, The Audacity of Hope, and the theme for his keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in 2004 come from Wright's sermons. "If you want to understand where Barack gets his feeling and rhetoric from," says the Rev. Jim Wallis, a leader of the religious left, "just look at Jeremiah Wright."

Obama wasn't born into Wright's world. His parents were atheists, an African bureaucrat and a white grad student, Jerry Falwell's nightmare vision of secular liberals come to life. Obama could have picked any church — the spare, spiritual places in Hyde Park, the awesome pomp and procession of the cathedrals downtown. He could have picked a mosque, for that matter, or even a synagogue. Obama chose Trinity United. He picked Jeremiah Wright. Obama writes in his autobiography that on the day he chose this church, he felt the spirit of black memory and history moving through Wright, and "felt for the first time how that spirit carried within it, nascent, incomplete, the possibility of moving beyond our narrow dreams.""


And here's some great stuff on the "theology:"

"Although Obama has condemned some of most controversial statements of Wright as needlessly divisive and distorted, Wright's ministry is founded on the black theology that Cone helped to create.
• "To be Christian is to be one of those whom God has chosen. God has chosen black people." [Black Theology and Black Power, pp. 139-140].
• "While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 15]
• "All white men are responsible for white oppression." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 24]
• "Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 40]
• "If there is any contemporary meaning of the Antichrist, the white church seems to be a manifestation of it." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 73]
"

What's interesting to me is that while I sure don't agree with him about a whole lot of things, I don't think Wright's a "maggot." Moe, for a liberal, really does have a lot more eliminationist ("I'd just shoot or ship off to labor camps everybody on the other side, IF I COULD, and that'd be cool!") language than Ross or myself. It's not fair, but Moe really does make you think "hey, maybe Goldberg's right. at least the netroots really are, at heart, would-be Mussolinis").

I'm aware there are a lot of similar people on the right, but I try to avoid them, and in my walk of life I don't run into them much -- while I do run into "Moe"s in faculty lounges from time to time, alas.

Admittedly, I'd be much more inclined to refer to say, Spong as a "maggot" (though I can't see myself doing this) than to Wright as such.