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Obama's Speech (III)

20 Mar 2008 09:54 am

I'd like to associate myself with Jay Cost's characteristically thoughtful take on the speech - both his praise for it, and his reservations. Here's the key passage:

My concern with the speech is the following. I am not sure what I think about Obama's claim that he never heard Wright make incendiary comments. I think that hinges on the definition of "incendiary." More importantly, I have always thought this was a moot point. Incendiary comments make for great television - but the bigger concern, especially for somebody as smart as Obama, is the philosophy that undergirds them. Obama clearly understands Wright's philosophy - even if he never heard Wright say what has generated this firestorm. If nothing else, yesterday he contextualized Wright into the broader narrative of the American racial division. He would not have been able to do that so ably if he had only learned about this philosophy last week.

This philosophy is divisive, and Obama was aware of it even if he had not heard its most extreme articulations. At the same time, this philosophy is clearly not the core mission of Trinity United Church of Christ. Jeremiah Wright does not wake up every morning dedicated to dividing people. However, the antipode of this divisiveness is the core mission of Barack Obama. He wakes up every morning dedicated to uniting people. This is why Obama thinks Wright is not just wrong, but "profoundly" wrong. Wright's divisiveness constitutes a grievous mistake on what Obama takes to be the central question of American identity - are we one people or are we not?

Accordingly, this inclines me to ask what Obama did about this profound philosophical error. He has been a parishioner for twenty years, and he has been a strong believer in this philosophy of unity for at least four years, since his keynote address in 2004. I appreciate that he cannot walk away from Trinity because the church speaks to who he is. However, I must ask whether he worked to persuade Wright and the parishioners who applauded so jubilantly at his divisive words that they were wrong on a matter of existential importance. If he did, what was the consequence of those efforts? Did he succeed in bringing about change at Trinity?

... The essential problem of the speech is that it gives no answer to these queries.

Read the whole thing.

Comments (178)

I think the important element of your, Larison's and Cost's approach to the speech is the good faith way you analyze it. all of you recognize Obama for what he is and what he is attempting to say and making honest critiques based on his words. You are moving the conversation forward in a respectful and intellectuall manner, even if you disagree or have reservations.

It is such a refreshing departure to the talking heads who simply yell about how the great the speech was and then question whether it will play in Youngstown, with no analyis of why or an attempt to engage the words themselves.

Here is what I would argue.

As a gay man, I was bothered by the McClurkin brouhahe last year. But then the Obama campaign said something that made sense to me. You can't change people's minds if you stop talking to those you disagree with.
Rejecting somebody because you disagree with some of what he says, especially when it is someone you love, may not be an option.
Obama may be good at compartementalizing those things.

And I concur with what CC said above. Why couldnt the NYT pick YOU as a token conservative columnist rather than Kristol ?

with all due respect, that is a ridiculous question for the simple reason that the church is not a court of law. it is a not a place primarily where facts are to be argued. i think the discomfort many have with obama staying in the church has more to do with an inability to understand the role of the black church in particular and churces in general in community life.

faith is a process. the same questions some of ask of obama are the same one blacks could ask of a legion of white churches throughout the history of this country.

suppose obama spoke to the reverend on several occasions and did everything you'd want him to do and the reverend still got up there and said what he said, then what?

the better question is, what level disassociation by obama of wright would truly make you comfortable? furthermore, what level of identification of the intricacies of the black experience by a black candidate is beyond the point that makes him a viable national candidate?

When did religion become another word for philosophy?

It's weird to read people who are supposedly sympathetic to religion analyze religion _strictly_ as if it were a philosophy - as if Obama were had evaluated the various positions held by Wright and after some amount of consideration was swayed by Wright's argument. I'd expect this approach to religion from someone like Christopher Hitchens, who thinks of religion as simply a bunch of propositions about the real nature of the world (and actions that spring from those propositions).

People go to churches for all sorts of reasons: from family to community to tradition to liturgy etc.

It's quite right and proper to ask Obama how he feels about what Wright said, as well as what he did about it - I completely agree - but let's refrain from all these cheap and superficial attempts at considering his religious life.

Thanks again Ross for bringing reason to people's reaction to Obama's speech.

I have a favorable impression of Mr. Obama, I may vote for him in the general.

Still, it scares me that he can get smart people like Andrew to sound pretty stupid at times.

Obama matters, but he has flaws. Lets discuss.

must ask whether he worked to persuade Wright and the parishioners who applauded so jubilantly at his divisive words that they were wrong on a matter of existential importance.

This reads to me like the last throes of finding an intellectual justification for harping on this.

I just can't see why someone would choose to evaluate a candidate for president not on his policy proposals, not on his record, not on his speeches, but on whether or not he took on his pastor.

This "adding epicycles" to the argument of why we should care about what Wright said really could only come from someone who's never going to vote for Obama anyway. I feel the same way about people who talk about Sen. McCain's "pill-popping wife" or his infidelity to wife #1. The guys have records, let's evaluate them on those.

Berger -- I think one of the reasons why Obama is being evaluated in terms of Wright's positions is not because people are confusing religion with philosophy, but because Wright's church has infused so much politics into religion.

I agree with Civilized Crank. What Obama did in that speech was hopefully ignite a meaningful dialogue on two races understanding each other more fully. It was great, but not perfect. It was honest and forthright. I do have troubles wondering about Obama sitting in that congregation for many years but I also realize that I can't walk in his shoes. I would not want my life analyzed as to what I might not have done that I should have in retrospect. I doubt anyone does.

Have the offensive views of a white racist ever been "contextualized?"

If they have, I missed it.

This is probably the stickiest wicket in this whole mess - the idea that frlagrantly racist and hateful views are ... somehow ... not quite oookkaaay ... but not really so bad, either ... it's just that you have to understand blah blah blah.

Meanwhile, Trent Lott loses his job, because of one isolated very clumsy statement.

Jeremiah Wright is just not considered responsible for his views. They just got stuck to him like burrs after a walk in the woods, and he was powerless to pull them off and discard them, despite getting a substantial education, and assuming a position of power, influence and authority in a CHRISTIAN church.

All during a time when his despised home country was making painful and necessary advances in extending to blacks the rights they were promised by a constitution that - while imperfectly realized - enshrined the ideas he is able to appeal to in his quest for social justice (or whatever).

The whole "contextualization" thing is problematic. I remember in college in the early 80's, the Soviet Union's actions were always "contextualized," America's never.

Deja Vu.

Of course for every one "reasoned" post, there will 1,000,000 batshit crazy responses from the GOP. As much as Ross try to deny it, conservatism rests on the Racist trendencies of the GOP:

Is Obama Wright" splices together the most inflammatory language of Jeremiah Wright with a series of other issues that have arisen in the campaign, all of which have been fodder for a series of emails that question Obama's loyalty to the country.

...

Rather the incendiary video -- which also includes footage of Malcolm X, the U.S. Olympians who raised their hand in the black power salute and the song "Fight the Power" -- is in part the amateur work of Lee Habeeb.

A co-founder and former producer of the Laura Ingraham Show, Habeeb is the director of strategic content at Salem Radio Network, the conservative talk radio powerhouse that airs programs hosted by figures such as Bill Bennett and Hugh Hewitt.


Ah yes, a scary black man with Muslim ties - is he loyal to the US? Nice.

ahh, the wonder of equivalency: Black hate = White hate.

The greatest trick that the majority in any society can pull off is to convince the populace that the grievances of the minority born out of oppression have the same weight as the oppression itself.

I'm sorry, but this argument seems way out on a limb to me. When did it become Obama's responsibility to lead the attitudes of everyone at the church he attended? He wasn't the pastor. He was a parishioner. Is it not possible to believe that Obama could have attended church every Sunday, and heard the Rev. occasionally rant in a sermon - for which Mike Huckabee, fer hevvins sake, forgives him - without demanding that Obama should have wrested control of the church from the pastor ... because... why? Because he might run for President some day?

Oh, I see.

Race-hatred is something whites are supposed to get over, and blacks are to embrace.

That sounds like a winning strategy, not to mention one whitey will be eager to embrace.

It's done wonders for Obama's candidacy.

"However, I must ask whether he worked to persuade Wright and the parishioners who applauded so jubilantly at his divisive words that they were wrong on a matter of existential importance. If he did, what was the consequence of those efforts?"

I would say that his recent speech could probably be counted as working to persuade both Wright, his parishoners, and anybody who agrees with them that they're wrong. I'd be very surprised if some of his other public speeches, back when he was working in Illinois, didn't contain similar themes.

I went to a church once.

The pastor got jiggy with some young girls he was "counselling."

I was not in the pews when he came out with it, begged for forgiveness, and made a bunch of dumb excuses.

Yet somehow, shockingly enough, news of this event managed to reach me.

Maybe the parishioners at Trinity Black Power Marxist Indoctrination Center did a better job of concealing from Obama certain juicy details about their pastor than my fellow parishioners.

Anything's possible.

"Have the offensive views of a white racist ever been "contextualized?"

If they have, I missed it."

Yes, they have, just not very publicly or obviously. Let's say some bubba in Alabama spouts off racist nonsense, and for whatever reason that makes it into the national press. There are quite a few white people who will think, "Well, yeah, he's an ignorant rube who doesn't know any better. What's more, he's one of those Southerners. Prob'ly had hate spoonfed to him from his daddy. Sad, really. It's a good thing he doesn't speak for the rest of us." But almost nobody really takes the time to deliberately, specifically speak out against it.

That kind of contextualizing rarely makes it into the press, or gets a public airing. But it happens.

Berger -- I think one of the reasons why Obama is being evaluated in terms of Wright's positions is not because people are confusing religion with philosophy, but because Wright's church has infused so much politics into religion.

What? Politics and religion?? Together?? Nooooooooooooo!!! Not in America!!

Ross is a Catholic, and I wonder what he has done in all of his years as a Catholic to try to convince his Church to stop aiding and abetting the molestation of children. Sure, it's possible that none of his "personal" priests have been directly involved in such activities, but has he urged them to work within the Church to change the culture of secrecy and neglect which has enabled so many predators? If not, what moral standing does he have to suggest that Obama is somehow lacking because he didn't make it a priority to vet every last freaking comment made by Jeremiah Wright?

So some political ops have spent thousands of man-hours pouring over Wright's speeches and have cherry-picked some so-called "horrible" moments - moments which are no more "horrible" than things said by preachers who have been ensconced in the GOP intestine for decades - and now conservatives think they've sunk Obama unless he can prove he smacked Wright for them? Yeah, sure.

So let's hear what Ross has done, as a Catholic, to make his feelings known his own Church about its role as the premier international protectorate for child molestors. Take the beam out of your own eye and all of that, Ross. I believe old Ross went to Harvard and was an active Catholic in Bernard Law's diocese, and Law was one of the very worst actors in the molestation scandals - a man of such low character that he was probably worse than some of the actual molestors. Law now has a plum Vatican post. Has Ross spoken out about this? If not, why not?

The question seems to be, "What did he hear and when did he hear it?" To me, it's a bit like the Don Imus thing: Imus was on the air for two decades, a big name in the industry and someone who has had high-powered politicians on regularly.

Then there was you-know-what.

So why was Imus fired after his bigoted insult but not before? Because he hadn't "crossed the line." Sure he'd said controversial things lots of times. But he'd never gone that far in that way. And when he did, he got nailed. Did anyone ask John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, or any other politician who'd been on his show why they would associate with someone who would make comments like that? No, because during the time of their association, he hadn't made "comments like that."

The idea that Wright was generally within bounds but on very rare occasion went over the edge is not unlike the idea that Imus was generally within bounds but on very rare occasions went over the edge.

Everybody's trying to infer from the ten seconds we see on TV what twenty years of sermons were like. Did Wright on a weekly basis make statements the equivalent of Imus's "nappy-headed hos" remark? Did Imus?

If we want to know whether Imus's comment was just par for the course or really a departure, we play his old tapes. If we want to know whether Wright was constantly so divisive, we should check his other sermons. Trying to read into 10 seconds of video what Obama did or did not hear while he sat in the pews is unnecessary and unfair.

"There are quite a few white people who will think, "Well, yeah, he's an ignorant rube who doesn't know any better. What's more, he's one of those Southerners. Prob'ly had hate spoonfed to him from his daddy. Sad, really. It's a good thing he doesn't speak for the rest of us." But almost nobody really takes the time to deliberately, specifically speak out against it.

That kind of contextualizing rarely makes it into the press, or gets a public airing. But it happens."

What you call "contextualizing" is really an ethnic and racial stereotype. Obama stereotyped his pastor by "contextualizing" him as an angry, aggrieved black man.

Now, help me out here ... when are racial stereotypes okay and when are they wrong?

This is one of the best threads on the speech I've seen. Very thoughtful analysis.

What I find profoundly depressing about the conversation right now is the fairly regular exaggeration about what Jeremiah Wright actually said. I've seen all the videos many times, and I'm hard-pressed to find any "flagrantly racist and hateful views," as Randall puts it.

He accuses the government of a variety of sins, including the false and stupid conspiracy theory about AIDS, but at what point does he say he hates white people, or in fact any other people? Are we to think that because he thinks our government is sinful, and the government is run by rich white people, that he hates white people? Are Christians well known for hating sinners? Do we think Wright hates sinners?

He says the Bible says that God should (or does) damn America for its sins. How exactly is that a racist or hateful view? Because he shouted it? It's a theological view, and not an especially rare view coming from some sections of Christianity. It appears to me that the Pope has said the same thing, just in a more polite and roundabout way. Again, is it racist to say God should damn America? Is it even anti-American? It's only anti-American if it's anti-American to ever criticize America.

I really think the actual statements of Wright have been obscured by the fact that he looks angry and is shouting.

I'm also so frustrated with the news shows for not adding any context to these clips. I'm practically shouting at the TV. They have the whole sermon on DVD - can they not watch the whole thing and give us a summary? What's the basic message of the sermon? How do his statements fit in with the overall message? Could the news programs pull together a condensed version of the whole thing, or at least the lead-in and follow-up? How, exactly, are we supposed to debate the appropriateness of Wright's words without any context?

And as for you, Ross, in your attempts to grasp at the wind for some reason to dislike the speech and Obama you and other conservatives are busy moving the goalposts to the moon.

You can't very well argue that Obama ACTUALLY BELIEVES anything his pastor said, since you're a "thoughtful" conservative instead of a Buchanan dunderhead, so you're busy trying to find the intellectual framework for still hanging the millstone around Obama's neck. But YOU KNOW HE DOESN'T BELIEVE ANY OF WRIGHTS' CRAZY TALK. You know that he is an enlightened, thoughtful person.

So what then is a "thoughtful" conservative to do? You move the goalposts. It's not enough for Obama to denounce the crazy stuff the man says, and Ross can't very well argue that Obama actually agrees with Wright, so instead you suggest that Obama should have erased the angry views of a scarred man before they even rose to the surface. Nothing short than the rewriting of history will satisfy you.

This whole thing is getting beyond ridiculous. A bunch of Republicans lecturing a black man on how to tackle racism? Give me a fucking break.

They're okay when they're aired. They're okay when people admit that they exist and work to try to move beyond them. They're wrong when people assume that only one side is doing it, and refuse to admit that they're guilty of it themselves.

Can someone give Randall a hug?

I'm sensing some of that white resentment Obama was talking bubbling up to the surface. It's okay. Take a deep breath. Are you comfortable? Those angry Black people aren't going to hurt you anymore. I promise. But it wouldn't hurt you to spend 15-20 mins a couple times a week looking at things from the perspective of 66 year-old Black man. Try not to do it too much at first because it's tough and i don't want you get hurt.

Tel - I agree with a lot of what you say about contextualizing or stereotyping. They're there, you have to work through them, and you can't do that without being honest about them.

What I don't agree with (and I'm not pointing at you here because I don't know what you think about this) is that they absolve anyone's conduct. They might explain it, but they don't excuse it. Despite the pressures of environment and experience, we expect people to be accountable as individuals for what they think and believe. Freedom of conscience and thought is one of the highest aspirations of liberal democracy.

I don't buy innocence by association any more than I do guilt by association.

"However, I must ask whether he worked to persuade Wright and the parishioners who applauded so jubilantly at his divisive words that they were wrong on a matter of existential importance"

I don't mean to sound flippant, but isn't that what he's doing, and has done, in his speeches and campaigns for years? Not specifically for Trinity, but for everyone?

Talking specifically about Trinity though, I'm not sure exactly what he could have been expected to do. Bearing in mind that, if you check out other sermons rather than just relying on the infamous clips you'll find the clips aren't typical of sermons there, what should Obama have done? A lot of people seem to think he should have quit the church, but I don't see how this would have helped - throwing out something that's good overall because of a small part that's bad, is that really constructive? Would quitting the church have helped change these particular attitudes there? Or would it be better to continue attending the church - not because of the occasional controversial view expressed, but because of the good it does - while continuing to work to change attitudes every day?

Just speaking for me personally, if you take it that the majority of the sermons were not objectionable in any way, when these particular controversial issues did arise I would have spoken to the Pastor about it and let him know I disagreed with him on that issue. That'd be it. I wouldn't quit the church unless controversy was the norm. The fact is, if you walk out on everything and everyone you ever disagree with, you'll find yourself alone and with nothing pretty quickly, and you won't have achieved much in the process.

Well said, Aengil.

I just read the opening of Cost's take on the Obama speech. I love it when analysts praise the intellect of someone only to then tell us how that person is wrong.

But anyway, he asks whether Obama ever tried to persuade Wright. A sensible question to ask. I'd say he probably did. I'd say that Obama's position concerning the need for racial unity may well have arisen out of seeing in Wright the consequences of a separatist philosophy.

I don't see why it is an "essential problem" with the speech that Obama didn't say, "I told him lots of times he was wrong but he wouldn't listen! I told them all they were wrong but they fought me at every turn!" The question of whether Obama stood before the church and tried to show them all the error of their ways is flat out silly.

In fact, Obama's very presence in this race is his response to Rev. Wright. Cost says Obama did nothing about Wright's divisive philosophy. I say he's done and is doing more than anyone in the world. What better response to people like Wright who think that white folks are always trying to keep down black folks than to win presidential caucuses and primaries in predominantly white states like Iowa, Kansas, Colorado, and Wisconsin? Look at how blacks in South Carolina reacted after Obama won Iowa. Isn't that changing attitudes? Isn't that correcting a profound philosophical error?

The fact that Obama couldn't convince someone twenty years older than he to change his attitudes is meaningless to me. Look how much he's done to change the attitudes of millions of people around the country, both black and white.

People like Jay Cost aren't so much analyzing a speech to understand it as they are parsing it to find things with which they can disagree. Cost was right to praise Obama's intellect. He was wrong to believe he surpassed it.

The Pastors on both Parties are not running for President. Vote Obama!

Elvis Presley - Amazing Grace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3XdXEJEI4E

Well, what was Obama doing all that while that he was a member of Wright's church. I'd guess that he was doing what an aspiring politician ought to do. That is, he was taking close notes of what was going on and puzzling out why it was going on so that when he finally got to a position where he could do something about it that he would know what to do.

Did anyone ever stop to think that people have to get themselves prepared to address issues like this in the most effective way?

My take is that Obama kept his powder dry for the time when it could be used to greatest effect.

I never voted for anyone for president before and I'm 56 years old. I didn't vote for a president up till now because there has never been a presidential aspirant who deserved my vote.

Guess what. I'm voting this time. And I'm voting for Obama.

This article is inaccurate. Obama directly pointed out that he had heard his Reverend say comments that could be construed as "controversial" while he sat in church.

Quote:

"Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."

This Wright issue is not a new one. It is unfair to imply that Obama has somehow kept this material "under wraps" due to its sensitive nature. Obama has mentioned Wright in both of his books as well as on his website.

It is also unfair to make moral judgments about Obama using someone else's inconsiderate words and actions. I would hate to be judged through some of the ignorant and homophobic comments my former pastor has made during his sermons.

I'm new to this blog and in my few visits it has been an incredibly civil and thoughtful discourse. As someone has already noted it's an inspiring change from the fist fights you see on cable TV. There are some arguments here I would disagree with, but I would offer two points. If you read Wright's "Audacity to Hope" sermon posted on Andrew Sullivan's blog Sunday it will tell you that the preacher didn't spew white hatred every Sunday morning. It really is outrageous to judge the man by these few appalling excerpts. But more importantly, how long are we going to explore the archeology of the relationship between Obama and Wright? To do so is to ignore the more important and compelling themes of Obama's speech. This is day III. I hope there isn't a day IV. Time to let it go.

Have the offensive views of a white racist ever been "contextualized?"

If his name is William F. Buckley, then the answer is "yes, invariably".

1- One cannot bring about greater unity by disowning and disavowing and jettisoning people. Churches or other kinds of movements concerned chiefly about purity and doctrinal orthodoxy do achieve their goals by excommunication, purges, and the like. Is that what we want?

2- Dissecting and rebutting statements by Rev Wright is one thing, but demonizing him is another. I have not directly read or heard his alleged statement that the US govt created the HIV/AIDS virus. If he said that, it is ridiculous. I did hear and read the YouTube excerpted statements about 9/11 and about drugs/prisons/3 strikes laws. What he said about these issues was quick and searing, but a good deal of it (if not all of it) can be defended with evidence. Some quick examples:

US policy and actions before 9/11 are relevant. Did the US cause 9/11? No, that would be a simpleminded position. But can we seriously address the 9/11 attack without thinking seriously about US policy toward Saudi Arabia? Or US support for the anti-Soviet Afghan Mujahadeen that grew into the Taliban and Al Qaeda?

The US did drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We are the only country to have ever used atomic or nuclear weapons. Far more people were killed in those bombings than on 9/11. What are the limits that we accept in wartime? Okay, argue that WWII was a legitimate war and the 9/11 attack was not part of a legitimate war . . . so let's compare the 9/11 war to the war in Iraq, the use of torture, etc. There is a problem here.

On drugs and prisons and 3 strikes: Is the drug problem directly traceable to and caused by US govt policy? Of course not. But . . . there is lots of evidence of the US govt's hands being in the drug trade or deliberately ignoring the drug trade in several instances: during the Vietnam War, during the Contra War in Nicaragua, and now in Afghanistan. And the War on Drugs has been effective only at breeding violence and gangsters. Prisons and 3 strikes laws? Is it even necessary to present a case that this country has a serious, serious problem with a racialized system of mass incarceration?

3) Last point. If we are going to jettison people for extreme views and actions, lets do it across the board. The attention to Rev Wright is the rankest hypocrisy. So many times we hear in response, "If a white minister said such things aimed in the other direction . . . " Well, we can look around and see exactly what happens in those circumstances. Pat Robertson? Jerry Falwell? Billy Graham? Rev Hagee? Rev Parsley?

This is an opportunity to change not only the way we talk and act about race, but also the way we talk and act about class and gender and about religion, too.

What I would like to see is a round of public conversations about each of these subjects and the ways they intersect. A convocation of religious leaders would be the first step.... and I can think of no one better to the country in this direction than Senator Obama.

Clinton and McCain and Bush and others have shown that they can divide, split, demonize, exclude, and reduce us to a paralyzed, self-absorbed, dysfunctional, and dumbed-down mass of deadlocked red states versus blue states. Obama has shown that he can the leader country in a very different direction. That is not just talk. It has been action.

Had Obama stepped up to the daise on Tuesday holding aloft the severed head of Rev. Wright, some would still fault him for not holding it high enough.

"What I find profoundly depressing about the conversation right now is the fairly regular exaggeration about what Jeremiah Wright actually said. I've seen all the videos many times, and I'm hard-pressed to find any "flagrantly racist and hateful views," as Randall puts it."

The problem is, again, Wright ascribes to black liberation theology, an inherently racist perversion of scripture. Obama has been a member of this church for roughly 20 years, his entire adult life. Wright has been pastor there the entire time. Wright has always been a student of black liberation theology. Are people here honestly asserting that Wright only had a few isolated incendiary, racist comments? He went to Libya with Farrakhan, preaches anti-Israel sermons (considers their existence to be illegal), and adheres to a theology that focuses entirely on one race of people. Where in scripture does Christ - or any apostle - say "only preach to people who look like you?" And spare me the "white churches do it too," because most don't, certainly not as an official policy from the senior pastor. The Falwell and Robertson comparisons are absurd, primarily because no current - or past - presidential candidate has been a 20 year member of a church they pastor. That is far from a simple "guilt by association." The genius of Obama's speech is that it has allowed his supporters to switch the topic from the beliefs of the leader of Obama's church and whether or not Obama agrees with them, and if not, why is he still a member after all these years, to a general discussion of race. While it's a needed conversation, it isn't the question he was asked.

Marcus,

You are right, indeed. Our country must address the desire that is within us, individually and as a public, to be reassured and vindicated by ritual acts of excommunication, denuciation, exposure and destruction, and, quite literally, execution.

Your remark about holding the Rev Wright's severed head aloft - and never being able to hold it high enough - is metaphorical.

But let us not forget that both President Bush and President Clinton got to the White House by very boastfully executing people - literally executing people, and that excuting black people has been front and center in the ugly history, not to mention executing the mentally impaired.

Is this a moment for change?

The problem with your criticism is that it's based on the assumption that the few snippets we've seen played over and over again are representative of most his sermons. I'm guessing that Sean Hannity scoured hundreds of DVD's that span at least 10 years, and he came up with 3. That tells me that the majority of those sermons were bread and butter sermons about Jesus and faith. In fact one of the sermons was delivered at Howard University, not his church.

Hundreds of religious leaders, black and white, have visited the church and heard Rev. Wright's sermons delivered all across the country. His sermons air on TV One, the only Black owned cable network, and I never heard him utter such comments, and I've listened for three years.

All that is to say, hundreds of religious leaders from across the country and tens of thousands of people at his church and at other churches across the country have heard Rev. Wright speak and never heard such remarks. Isn't it fair to conclude that these snippets are not the norm for his sermons?

That in no way excuses what he said, but at the same time, I don't think it's fair to conclude that for 20 years, on every Sunday, this is what Senator Obama heard coming from the pulpit.

There's a contradiction in Cost's words.

However, the antipode of this divisiveness is the core mission of Barack Obama. He wakes up every morning dedicated to uniting people.

vs.

However, I must ask whether he worked to persuade Wright and the parishioners who applauded so jubilantly at his divisive words that they were wrong on a matter of existential importance. If he did, what was the consequence of those efforts? Did he succeed in bringing about change at Trinity?

Obviously, Obama's entire public life has been dedicated to bringing this unity. It's nonsensical to talk about succeeding or failing yet--it's an ongoing process, an attempt to show another way to improve the situation of blacks in America. The only way to show angry blacks that unity is a better strategy is for unity to actually succeed in changing our policies. If you refuse to allow his strategy to succeed until he has convinced everyone to stop being angry, it's a Catch 22.

I mean, which should we spend more energy trying to reform? Black people who's anger at actual injustice has become counter-productive, or white people who are actually continuing the injustice? So long as there is a single black radical in a congregation, Cost will not allow anyone in that congregation to spend time on anything but condemning that radical.

Meanwhile, McCain is allowed to get away with embracing Falwell, Hagee and Parsley for no reason other than politics--in McCain's case, the anger and hate were not unfortunate baggage, but the very reason their endorsements are tactically useful. Anyone who denies a double standard here is engaging in really pathetic horseshit.

"Can't we all just get along...?" etc.

Remember the black boy dragged behind the car to his death? The lynchings of people from trees in front of their loved ones? Rodney King? Tips of the massive iceberg of injustice, hate and fear that has floated beneath America for 400 years.

And yet in spite of the centuries of tragedy and terror we have foisted upon black America, here is a man who says, "See what has existed, and see what we can be instead."

I'm 62, white, moderate/liberal. I've seen a lot of hucksters and a few good men in the Oval Office in my life.

Barack Obama has, simply, the seeds of greatness in him. He can transcend politics and so raise it to a higher leve. We've sensed that, we saw dramatic evidence of it the other day in his speech.

Racists and fear mongers are terrified of that kind of brilliant, measured rationality. They can't abide the notion that their tiny-minded hectoring of every exploitable negative could possibly lose traction. The Rush Limbaughs of the world need hate to thrive, but the thriving only breeds more hate and divisiveness.

Life in the U.S. under Obama would have to change, and many people fear change, even though it often brings greater peace and fortune to the people.

If we don't snap out of it and elect him in 2008, we deserve the disloyal Bushies we sometimes get saddled with in high office. We deserve the Swift Boat Veterans for stupidity. We deserve the nattering nabobs of nonsensical public vitriol.

I've had enough of this garbage. Personally, I believe there are all kinds of reasons why a person who hears controversial statements by those they otherwise admire do not confront those people, as Obama eloquently cited a few of in his speech.

There is another factor, which he talks about in his wonderful books (read them to know what this man is really all about)

The downside of being half black/half white is you at times struggle with the longing to belong and be identified with a group. Even as not being able to do that makes you stronger because it teaches you who you are at core, and it teaches you how to listen to, respond to, and always respect divergent points of view.

This is his heritage and, given his intellect, his political genius.

You could make a case that spiritually and emotionally, he has walked in everybody's shoes...and along the way, chosen the kind of man he would be, the level of integrity he would conduct his life at, and the path he would choose: to endure this miserable stupid low-brained political circus just to bring us to a higher level as a nation.

That's why I'm voting for him. He's the real deal. Maybe he should have changed churches, and perhaps he should have had someone stand there with a camcorder while he argued the finer points of black anger with the reverend. It would have been great if he had, sure. That would have made him even more perfect than the rest of us. And then the naysayers could trash him for being "St. Obama", as Hillary and Limbaugh have done.

His judgment about Wright was off, that's clear. It does not signify the one thing we should be concerned about such lapse of judgment: does he hold those views?

Unless you believe that he is, like most other politicians, lying through his teeth, you must trust that he told the truth in his speech. That there is no place in his being for such recidivistic views. America, he says, is not the place that Wright describes.

One must believe Wright said a lot of other uplifting things to counterbalance his own vitriol. But those clips won't make news, and welcome to American Media, 2008.

Obama's not perfect. We know that. We can sigh a little and realize he'll make mistakes, just as he himself has promised. He's human, like us.

He is also the perfect candidate, now, for our confused and troubled national psyche. This became only more evident after that incredible, courageous, principled, nuanced speech.

We don't get leaders like Obama very often in life.

If we let this chance go by, we deserve the typical mediocrity represented by Clinton and McCain that we will inherit.

We can only speak to our own inner calling. That too many Americans chose Bush over Gore only means that we weren't ready as a nation to be better.

Perhaps now we are.

mtgyau,

I'm an atheist. I am entirely used to pastors holding nonsensical views and spouting off falsehoods from their pulpit. I am somewhat perpexed as to how I can determine exactly which pile of intellectually bankrupt crap being propounded on which Sunday morning at which church is the worst. Is black liberation theology false. Assuredly so! So is the theology coming out of every other pulpit on Sunday mornings.

I am not however, blind to the communitarian and utilitarian purposes the church serves for those who think they need it.

If you want to condemn Obama for belonging to a church that preaches falsehoods have at it. There's nothing unusual about it.

"I mean, which should we spend more energy trying to reform? Black people who's anger at actual injustice has become counter-productive, or white people who are actually continuing the injustice? So long as there is a single black radical in a congregation, Cost will not allow anyone in that congregation to spend time on anything but condemning that radical."

Correction - should read "as long as there is a single black radical IN THE PULPIT..."

"Meanwhile, McCain is allowed to get away with embracing Falwell, Hagee and Parsley for no reason other than politics--in McCain's case, the anger and hate were not unfortunate baggage, but the very reason their endorsements are tactically useful. Anyone who denies a double standard here is engaging in really pathetic horseshit."

So now an endorsement from someone is equivalent to attending their church for 20 years? Those who equate the two are the ones "engaging in really pathetic horseshit."

mtgyau

Your statements about the racial exclusivess of Rev Wright and Black Liberation Theology are unfounded. You are mistaking a primary concern with the social and cultural life of a community under siege with supposed theological beliefs that hold that salvation is limited to only one race. Black Liberation Theology is about the former, not the latter.

Martin Marty, the University of Chicago historian of Religion, perhaps the country's most prominent historian of religion, has written and talked about attending services at the Rev Wright's church. Professor Marty is white, by the way. And his eye-witness testimony is compelling.

Also, check out what Mike Huckabee had to say about the rev Wright affair. You can google the YouTube of his interview on a morning show just yesterday.

Mtgyau, you're joking right?

Let me help you and give you a little insight into something before you embarass yourself. Many Black people feel similar things about this country. You may not understand it but as Obama said that anger is real.

The liberation theology you fear was used by the Black community as a tool through which to build self esteem after years of being forced into 2nd class status. People need something to hold onto to keep from going crazy in the face the systematic marginalization in the greatest country in the world.

Now I understand you don't think that excuse anything but I respectfully submit that you are misguided.

It's funny. Given the amount of meds we prescribe in the suburbs for people grappling with their unhappy childhoods, you'd think people would at least be clued into the anger in the African-American community.

The brilliance of Obama was not in changing the subject but in asking for a little understanding. You know, one of those "he that is without sin cast the first stone" moments.

If you want to suggest that a 66 year-old Black is by his very experience racist/un-american you are more than welcome to but please state it explicity.

So now an endorsement from someone is equivalent to attending their church for 20 years? Those who equate the two are the ones "engaging in really pathetic horseshit."

Obama rejected and denounced the things Wright said that are at issue. Have you heard McCain strongly repudiate Hagee (whose endorsement he sought and happily accepted) for saying the Catholic Church is the Great Whore or for saying New Orleans brought Katrina on itself, or Parsley (his "spiritual advisor") for advocating Holy War? I sure haven't, not has the media asked him to. McCain's happy to embrace these people include them in his campaign, and no one in the media calls him on it. That IS horseshit.

Swells:

Nice job of Obama-ing my argument. You took a specific point about black liberation theology and generalized it to a discussion of theology in general. The problem is, while you may disagree with the (Reformed) theology preached at my church, it has no political component to it, because that isn't the role of the church, both from a religious perspective and a secular one (churches are non-profits, so politics from the pulpit should technically cause them to give up their tax-exempt status). Because of that, it wouldn't be particularly relevant to discuss it if I ran for office. You and I can disagree on the existence of God and the role of the church, but that doesn't grant someone in the pulpit (or the pew for 20 years) immunity from being judged based on what he says/believes, and changing the subject doesn't end the discussion, it prolongs it.

There is one thing in this that I do find to be decidedly humourous. A black preacher gets in trouble for believing that white scientists created AIDS to kill blacks. For this he gets criticized by a lot of people whose sense of ethics came from some dead guy, whose mother was a virgin, that came back to life and floated to heaven or from some other guy who took an overnight flight to Mecca on a winged horse.

That is really rich in irony when you think about it.

I do not think we should ask McCain to denounce Hagee and Parsely.

Instead, he needs to be asked to explain them. Explain to the American people why Hagee is so anti-Catholic. Explain to the American people the history and the culture of his followers who respond to such messages.

Obama gave us an explanation.

Denuncuiations are cheap. And they are quick. Denounce and you are done. But explanations require attention and deeper engagement.

No more denunciations! It is time to demand explanation. Show us that you can explain our country to ourselves. Show us that you understand who we are.

Not knowing the difference between a Sunni and Shia is one route to disaster. Not understanding our country is another. Or maybe they are reaslly one and the same problem?

mtgyau, I was just trying to make a point that to criticize someone for holding outrageous views when the views you hold yourself are just as outrageous, nay more so since it is at least logically possible that white scientists might have created AIDS to kill blacks while it is not logically possible that an omniscient, omnipotent god exists, is kind of silly. What is that old saying about casting the mote out of one's own eye?

I don't know what reformed means in the context of religion but I'll bet you still think some dead guy came back to life and floated off to heaven. Does your religion support marriage rights for gays? If not, then your religion is no better than Wright's.

Joe Shmoe:

I am not asserting BLT holds that salvation is for only one race, but that they are only concerned with the salvation of one race. Actually, BLT is much more concerned with freedom from oppression than salvation, making it a more man-centered "theology."

I could not care less what Mike Huckabee says about Wright/Obama. Huck and Obama are very similar - great orators with little substance regarding actual policy.

Come on, people - the man is a US Senator who is running for president of the United States! And his supporters want to argue that he shouldn't have been expected to challenge his pastor or church on their divisive theology? Which, btw, is not incidental but the heart of their Afrocentric ideology (whose tenets were scrubbed from the church's website a few days ago, but are available on various blogs online).

What exactly did Wright say that was so offensive?

Jay Cost (writes)

"but the bigger concern, especially for somebody as smart as Obama, is the philosophy that under girds them. Obama clearly understands Wright's philosophy - even if he never heard Wright say what has generated this firestorm. If nothing else, yesterday he contextualized Wright into the broader narrative of the American racial division. He would not have been able to do that so ably if he had only learned about this philosophy last week."

This seems to be the trouble. Obama messiahism seems to run so high on the left that they have missed the practical political ramifications of this incident and resulting speech.

It would seem to me that America large is just getting introduced to Obama. To have such an intimate association with so far left a philosophy be the FIRST negative episode of his campaign cannot bode well.

It would seem that he has lost his hue of being above the racial divide. That questions concerning his relations with far left race rhetoric rather than put to bed, have now been legitimized.

Swells:

Believing in the virgin birth has no political implications. Believing that the gov't created aids does. The likelihood that either happened is irrelevant.

mtgyau, that's another position that is decidedly humourous. Have you looked at the policy positions on Obama's web site. The guy is a policy wonk (as one would expect from a former editor of the Harvard Law Review). If you don't know what the substance of his policies are, it's because you haven't taken the time to find out. I don't agree with all of them but a shortage of policy there isn't.

Jay Cost (writes)

"but the bigger concern, especially for somebody as smart as Obama, is the philosophy that under girds them. Obama clearly understands Wright's philosophy - even if he never heard Wright say what has generated this firestorm. If nothing else, yesterday he contextualized Wright into the broader narrative of the American racial division. He would not have been able to do that so ably if he had only learned about this philosophy last week."

This seems to be the trouble. Obama messiahism seems to run so high on the left that they have missed the practical political ramifications of this incident and resulting speech.

It would seem to me that America large is just getting introduced to Obama. To have such an intimate association with so far left a philosophy be the FIRST negative episode of his campaign cannot bode well.

It would seem that he has lost his hue of being above the racial divide. The questions concerning his relations with far left race rhetoric rather than put to bed, have now been legitimized.

Marcus:

I know that many black people feel similar things about this country, and as long as people like Wright are in pulpits and influential people like Obama belong to their congregations, many will continue to believe the gov't created aids and 9/11 was an inside job. Tell me how that helps move toward reconciliation.

mtgyau, Believing in the virgin birth has no political implications? Do you support marriage rights for gays and lesbians? If not, guess where that position came from. The list of such issues that are directly informed by which particular pile of superstitious rubbish what percentage of the population believes at some particular time goes on ad nauseum.

Do you seriously believe religious beliefs have no political impact? Hey, I can't even buy a bottle of wine on Sunday before 12 Noon where I live. What planet do you live on?

mtgyau-

Wright never said that 9/11 was an inside job--he said that 9/11 was partly the result of the US's involvement in the Middle East over the past 50 years.

You would have to be a complete moron not to agree with that, because its true.

Judith (writes)

"Come on, people - the man is a US Senator who is running for president of the United States! And his supporters want to argue that he shouldn't have been expected to challenge his pastor or church on their divisive theology? Which, btw, is not incidental but the heart of their Afrocentric ideology (whose tenets were scrubbed from the church's website a few days ago, but are available on various blogs online)."

More than "challenge" I would say "even associate". My instincts tell me that this is what Obama believes, hence his 20 year commitment to the Church the man & his message.

There are more than enough mainstream black churches were liberation theology is not preached. One would think that an aspiring politician like Obama would distance himself from politically problematic associations UNLESS he believed in the philosophy strongly enough to want to risk the association.

The man is no dummy. So why would a savvy politician maintain an association that was potentially damaging? I think if Obama could go back in time he would pick a different pastor (for purely political reasons) He cannot: therefore he must attempt to spin this disreputable association as something other than what it is.

mtgyau, Do you seriously believe that the US supporting practically every tin horn dictator to come along in the middle east for decades had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11? The fact of the matter is that the AIDS statement Wright made is about the only one I've heard that doesn't have at least some basis in fact. Government peddling drugs to blacks? Go back to the Iran Contra scheme of Reagan. Guess what, the government, thru the fine upstanding efforts of that uber patriot Ollie North and the CIA was, in all likelihood, importing cocaine and supplying black distributors in Watts in LA pimarily for sale to blacks.

Guess what, a lot of what Wright said wasn't as far-fetched as you think it was.

To me the "Government created AIDS" thing is a blood-libel against white people. It's the kind of talk that gets people killed. Spreading it is evil.

Nothing Obama can say or do now, after he's been busted, will excuse him for having associated himself with, exposed his children to, and funded (about $40,000 in total donations about the same time his wife was having trouble affording ballet lessons for said children) this hatemonger.

Some incredible people compared the rants of Rev.Wright to similar sermons by racist white preachers. Let me tell you about not so subtle difference between the two. The former rants were out of bitterness and frustration of being poweless in a white dominant society, whereas the latter are all about pure hatred and arrogant sniggers at other so called 'inferior' races. They can not be more different. Rev. Wright no doubt had a big mouth and Obama is paying the price for it. How many of those white politicians are paying the price for the bigotry of their white associates ? None. It says a lot about the very racist society that is American which refused to change itself to a better place.

Again, (besides the AIDS thing) what did Wright say that was so bad?

Mtgyau,

Your problem is what exactly? That Obama belongs to a church where silly thing get said occassionaly? People believe silly things when silly things have been done to them. So I guess your real fault is with this country for so isolating a racial minority as to make them susceptible to silly ideas.

I guess the path toward reconciliation is the recognition of the source of the problem and try to correct it. Maybe the correct response I suppose if for Obama to actually prove his pastor wrong by example by running a campaign that inspires a cross-section of people. But I also suppose that when people attack Obama for his failings to distance himself it kinda proves the pastors point that this still a racist country.

Funny isn't it?

A bunch of Republicans lecturing a black man on how to tackle racism? Give me a fucking break.

One reason we're so uninterested in any sort of "national conversation about race" is that such "conversations" always start with us being told to STFU.

RICKM writes: "Wright never said that 9/11 was an inside job--he said that 9/11 was partly the result of the US's involvement in the Middle East over the past 50 years.

You would have to be a complete moron not to agree with that, because its true."

Of course it's true. It's also true that most movement conservatives are complete morons, and that a majority of them still think Iraq was involved in 9/11.

That belief is at least as insane as the AIDS rumor, which gained currency in the black community (at least in part) because the US government did once deliberately infect black men with syphilis and leave them untreated - apparently just for the hell of it. Then there's the Completely Insane War On Drugs which is largely a war against black Americans.

But according to the conservatives pushing this assault on Obama anyone who mentions such things hates whitey and is anti-American. Uh huh.

RICKM (asks)

"Again, (besides the AIDS thing) what did Wright say that was so bad?"

Discover for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Wright+&search_type=

What do you want people to say... the man is a far leftist. Most Americans are not. They don’t associate either the tone or substance with Christianity or legitimate politics.

Obama’s lifelong association with this pastor puts him way outside mainstream opinion. Hence the need for a defensive speech.

Fitz-

Seriously. WTF is Wright saying that is so horrendous? That America has supported terrorism? OH NOEZ!

Nevermind the fact that its true.

So what are you saying, that the US didn't bomb Hiroshima?

RICKM

Never mind.

So thats it? You're unable to reproduce a quote from Wright that is racist, even though everyone on the right takes it as fact that Wright is a racist? Anyone?

RICKM asks: "Again, (besides the AIDS thing) what did Wright say that was so bad?"

He said Jesus was black.

That and that alone will piss off most movement conservatives.

Didn't you know that the Virgin Mary had alabaster skin?

I'm with RICKM. I'm a white guy from Boston, from one of those "white ethnic enclaves" everyone talks about, and I don't hear hatred in Wright's sermons. I hear a remarkably stupid conspiracy theory about AIDS, but otherwise it's all either inconvenient but verifiable fact (that "rich white people" run the country; that Hillary has never been called a n*****; that criticism of Israel is taboo in most places) or opinion well represented in our political discourse (America's chickens roosting after 9/11 -- a key piece of Ron Paul's argument).

And from what I've seen or read of his other sermons, he's not a hater. He doesn't push some "race war" line as the explanation of every evil. He's pretty main-line Christian in most of the stuff I've seen.

So I don't think Obama should have left the church based on what I've seen. I think it's a false equivalence to say this guy is a David Duke or a Louis Farrakhan. And I really, really think the right wing has some goddamn nerve harping on this after all the lengths they've gone to defend Pat Robertson et al.

(I'm not including you in that, Ross. I appreciate your straightforward and honest attempt to deal with O's flaws and strengths.)

As for Black Liberation Theology as a racist belief system -- the trouble is, white churches have practiced a White Liberation Theology for so long no one recognizes it anymore. I've seen several people upset about Wright's line that Jesus was a "poor black man." "Jesus wasn't black, he was a Jew," they've said. But there ARE early depictions of him as a black man. And I sure don't see those folks running out and replacing their blue-eyed Euro-Christ statues with more Semitic versions.

Frankly, I think every white Christian should meditate on the image of a black Jesus. Try him on for size. I mean, what's the difference, right?

Ralph Phelan writes: "One reason we're so uninterested in any sort of "national conversation about race" is that such "conversations" always start with us being told to STFU."

But the main reason you're uninterested is that you simply don't give a shit. Why not just be honest about that?

Fitz,

I accept that Wright is outside the American political mainstream. That doesn't make him outside the mainstream of black Protestantism.

Conspiracy theories about the US Government are not racist. What we have here is basically the right-wing political correctness Giuliani attempted to use against Ron Paul. It hardly even worked in the Republican primary.

One reason we're so uninterested in any sort of "national conversation about race" is that such "conversations" always start with us being told to STFU.

No, I think the Republican party is uninterested in a "National conversation about race" because institutionalized racism has been integral to the Republican Party of the last 50 years. Or didn't you know the Confederate Flag still flies in South Carolina?

Pithlord |

"I accept that Wright is outside the American political mainstream. That doesn't make him outside the mainstream of black Protestantism."

Perhaps, but its not like he needs to reach out for the votes of black protestants. In addition:Ron Paul was not a national candidate running for President. He was a sideshow precisely for those beliefs.

Mine is only a political point. That point would be that Obama's association with Wright has knocked Obama off the pedestal of "above racial politics" in a particularly damaging way given Americas unfamiliarity with him so early in his campaign.

American voters are not being asked to decide whether Mr. Obama should be punished for his association with Rev. Wright, but rather, whether they should vote to give him the supreme power of life and death, and the power to take the nation to war. It is difficult to wish to give someone such power if he has been found enjoying speeches damning America, having a quite smile when his preacher says (with some gloating) that America deserved 9/11, and supporting the same preacher/church to the tune of $20,000+). The racial context (which Mr. Obama tried hard to explain) is immaterial to one's voting preference, even though it is material to not punishing him. My point is many of Mr. Obama's supporters equate not voting for Mr. Obama over Rev. Wright's comments with undeserved punishment. But my simple question to these supporters is: why should I vote for someone when he has been a willing participant in anti-American rhetoric? Why would I trust him to be a vigorous defender of my freedoms?

From an entirely different angle...

I'm a pastor of a small church in California. I tend to be liberal in my politics, but not just drawn to the prophetic tradition in Biblical preaching, but called to it. In other words, even if the people in my church wind up hating me for it, I cannot do otherwise than preach from texts such as Isaiah 58:6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?" In other words - your worship is damnable if it isn't rooted in acts of justice for the marginalized in society. This isn't Jeremiah Wright speaking; ostensibly, this is God speaking.

But here's where the rub hits. It's not just pastors who are called to preach in certain churches - but true disciples of Jesus must be called to membership within their congregations. Maybe Obama can't leave his church because he truly believes God has called him to be a member of that church in that community.

I know that this sounds like gobbledygook to many people - but that's the danger of bringing political judgment upon religious experience. For Ross, Jay, and others - do you see the difficulty of making coherent judgments about a person's faith commitments when you are on the outside of that commitment? This is not to say that you can't make those judgments, only that I don't believe you've taken in the full context of Obama's decision making in respect to his faith. You need to make much more effort in this regard before you start getting closer to understanding.

I'm a black man and honestly, Obama's speech made me see that I might actually have serious resentments towards white Americans. Resentments that should be weighed against the resentments that whites have towards me. The way that he explained both sides from the perspective of someone who comes from both of our cultures was very unique and because of his candidacy, very historical.

I always thought it was stupid that white people complain about things like affirmative action at schools like the university I went to (which was 90% white). I always saw those kind of statements as the greed of some whites who want 100% of everything in this country. I always hated the fact that whites complain about having to be politically correct when in fact all black people know that political correctness is a dam that holds back a flood of hurtful feelings. Feelings that seep through cracks in the dam every single day.

We are suffering every day and I apologize if I never noticed that you might be suffering too.

A few years ago, my mother's boss, whom she has worked with for decades, made reference to a "nigger woman who used to cook for him". He accidentally said that in front of my black mother in the middle of a friendly conversation they were having.

When I started school at Texas A&M, my mother and I were on our way to freshman orientation when a truck full of A&M students shouted racial slurs at us. It was as if they were saying, welcome to Texas A&M University.

When I was 9, my best friend, a little white boy named Kyle, told me that I had to leave his birthday party because his family doesn't like black people. We both stood their in tears and I got on my bike and went home. I walked into my grandmother's house in tears (the house was full of family members that day) and they thought something serious had happened. When I told them what happened, they all told me that that was the way life is.

It's been like this for me throughout my entire 32 years on this Earth. One thing after another with pauses in between. I have often waited on God to come and punish white people for being so evil towards people who never fight back. We kill each other in black on black crime but we almost never harm the white people who helped make us the way we are. The ones who killed my grandfather's friends and through them in the river in the Port of Beaumont. The white sheriff who raped my great grandmother and gave me my lighter complexion. The white policemen who threw my female cousin on the ground after she'd just been released from the hospital after a car accident (mistaken identity).

It's hard to tell the good whites from the bad ones "sometimes" but I knew that God knew who they were and I figured that he'd probably punish your whole race because your good people stood by and made excuses while we were suffering like this.

So when I heard Jeremiah Wright's comments, I didn't bat an eye. I knew he didn't really want God to damn the whole country. A country that holds his own family members. No. He was just asking God to deliver us from the sometimes abusive power of this country.

Obama's speech asked me to see your side and sympathize with you.

Sanjeeb-

Wright was damning America's historically racist policy against black people. What the hell is so wrong about that?

WRIGHT DID NOT SAY THAT THE US DESERVED 9/11. He said that 9/11 was partly the result of US policy in the Middle East. This is a fact that nearly every intelligent and reasonable observer of the Middle East agrees with.

Sanjeeb wrote :"But my simple question to these supporters is: why should I vote for someone when he has been a willing participant in anti-American rhetoric? Why would I trust him to be a vigorous defender of my freedoms?"

Did you say the same thing to George Bush and his anti-american friend, Pat Robertson?

Swells:

"mtgyau, Believing in the virgin birth has no political implications? Do you support marriage rights for gays and lesbians? If not, guess where that position came from."

Not from a belief in the virgin birth. If any argument for or against a political position can't be made in purely secular terms it has no business being made into law, and arguing against marriage rights for gays and lesbians is not reliant on a religious argument. Plenty of non-religious people are opposed to said rights.

"The list of such issues that are directly informed by which particular pile of superstitious rubbish what percentage of the population believes at some particular time goes on ad nauseum.

Do you seriously believe religious beliefs have no political impact? Hey, I can't even buy a bottle of wine on Sunday before 12 Noon where I live. What planet do you live on?"

Again - huge difference between someone's belief system informing their decisions and having their pastor preach political sermons.

I am white. I think you are applying a racist double standard. You do not ask white politicians to reform the Christian right of its hatred of gays or Muslims. Obama is being held to a far different standard here, and the only plausible explanation is that he is black & Wright is black. I do NOT exclude Ross from this; he is one of the people doing this--to be fair, so is most of the press corp. I realize that's inflammatory; see further explanation here..

Sometimes it helps to state the obvious.

I think Afro-centrism is bad.

Is that the heart of the controversy? It is relevant to what extent Obama embraces it or merely tolerates it.

The speech did not make that clear. He'll have to do better for the general, but thats a few months away.

Haven't read all the comments, but someone at the top said, "Have the offensive views of a white racist ever been "contextualized? If they have, I missed it."

Former SCOTUS Justice Hugo Black, a Louisiana native and one of this country's foremost white crusaders for black civil rights, had been a member of the Ku Klux Klan while he held political office in his home state. When asked about it later in life (and in light of his support for Brown v. Board of Education, among other landmark cases), he simply shrugged and said something along the lines that "That's what you needed to do in to get elected in Louisiana."

"I am white. I think you are applying a racist double standard. You do not ask white politicians to reform the Christian right of its hatred of gays or Muslims. Obama is being held to a far different standard here, and the only plausible explanation is that he is black & Wright is black. I do NOT exclude Ross from this; he is one of the people doing this--to be fair, so is most of the press corp. I realize that's inflammatory; see further explanation here."

Setting aside the fact that the right doesn't hate gays or muslims, as soon as someone points out a republican presidential candidate who attends an overtly political church, I'll be the first to condemn that church, pastor, and candidate. Until then, keep believing that Falwell and Robertson speak for the Christian Right since it aids your stereotypes of "us."

Katherine

"You do not ask white politicians to reform the Christian right of its hatred of gays or Muslims."

That’s because that "hatred" doesn’t invite such scrutiny because the mainstream doesn’t view it as "hatred".

Saying 9/11 was Chickens coming home to roost & the government created AIDS is seen as further a field.

As for Black Liberation Theology as a racist belief system -- the trouble is, white churches have practiced a White Liberation Theology for so long no one recognizes it anymore.
So what if I'm a racist - you're a racist, too! Tu quoque.

I've seen several people upset about Wright's line that Jesus was a "poor black man." "Jesus wasn't black, he was a Jew," they've said.
Well, in the widely-aired version of his remarks, he refers to Jesus as a poor black man growing up under the domination of rich white people, and says that Obama is just like Him. Most Christians find comparisons of mortals (let alone politicians) to Jesus somewhat off-putting, all the more so when Wright, in Black Liberation Theology fashion, is attempting as he does there to appropriate Jesus for blacks to the exclusion of all the other people in the world. As a matter of history, the likelihood that Jesus was phenotypically sub-Saharan African is fairly small, though so is the likelihood that he looked like a German. That He was not ethnically an American black is certain. Wright and the exponents of Black Liberation Theology at least sound as if they're turning Jesus into the idol of their tribe, which is just as wrong as when any other nationalist does it.

But there ARE early depictions of him as a black man.
Where? I'm genuinely interested.

And I sure don't see those folks running out and replacing their blue-eyed Euro-Christ statues with more Semitic versions.
Are stained, unpainted wood carvings of Christ OK? They're brown, after all. I have an Eastern Orthodox-style painting of Christ, too, and he looks pretty swarthy. Though I note the US census counts Middle-Easterners as white. I'm very confused.

Frankly, I think every white Christian should meditate on the image of a black Jesus. Try him on for size. I mean, what's the difference, right?
I'm sure you feel you've had a penetrating insight here, but I don't get it. What is the difference supposed to be?

Setting aside the fact that the right doesn't hate gays or muslims, as soon as someone points out a republican presidential candidate who attends an overtly political church, I'll be the first to condemn that church, pastor, and candidate. Until then, keep believing that Falwell and Robertson speak for the Christian Right since it aids your stereotypes of "us."

This statement is so rich with irony it hurts. Republicans! Taking umbrage at the intersection of religion and politics! How dare we tolerate this in America! How dare we believe that the leaders of the Christian Right speak for the Christian Right!

I have been witness to a crime perpetrated by, and on behalf of, MSNBC. Days after presidential hopeful Barack Obama’s speech on race, during which he challenged the media to not perpetuate hate and ignorance by showing Reverend Wright’s ranting ad nauseam, they did so anyway.

Most relevantly, from that post of mine I linked to:

"Obama may know Wright better, but he has far LESS impact on policy than other controversial ministers have on Republican policy. Has Obama proposed or supported any anti-white amendments to the constitution to gain Reverend Wright's favor? Do you think he's going to consult with Wright about Supreme Court nominations? Did he call speak at or endorse any events where black militants discussed how they "don't just want to impeach judges. I want to impale them"? Is there a realistic possibility of him starting wars against countries that Rev. Wright wants him to go to war against? No, no, no, and no."

"It is difficult to wish to give someone such power if he has been found enjoying speeches damning America"

This is what I'm talking about. Here's a quite true statement, "Obama goes to a church where the former pastor once said that God should (or does) damn America for its sins."

How exactly can you stretch from that to the statement you made above? Can I count the exaggerations in the phrase "he has been found enjoying speeches damning America"?

1. Obama wasn't there when the statement was made.
2. Obama's condemned the statement, so he clearly didn't enjoy it.
3. There is only the one speech, not "speeches"
4. We have no idea what the sermon, in toto, says about America. Perhaps right after saying, "God damn America" he immediately said, "That's what the Old Testament says, but Jesus taught us that we shall judge not, lest we be judged." We just don't know without hearing the whole sermon.

Why bother to participate in this discussion if you're constantly exaggerating and slanting the facts?

TheOtherCyrus--

RE: Black Jesus,

This is one image I had in mind. It's not quite so early as I'd thought, but obviously it predates our present-day identity politics. I've seen others, including some mosaics where he has an obvious 'fro, but Google isn't cooperating.

I don't think this is a minor point that can be dismissed with a simple "Tu quoque." My point is, no one in mainstream culture EVER raises a stink about the dominant depiction of Jesus. It's not considered remotely controversial. But the black mirror-image of that white Christ is treated as laughable, even though it has just as much historical basis (that is, not much).

So the "two wrongs don't make a right" approach isn't relevant here. The problem isn't a black Jesus or a white Jesus at all; it's that one is problematic and the other is considered normal, for no good reason. Both groups are racializing Christ, which is fine -- no one knows what he looked like, so some creative license is permissible. But when black people say he's black -- when they reject the silent consensus that he's white -- they catch hell for their "Afrocentrism."

As for my "penetrating insight," here it is: The Bible reminds us again and again that Christ is exactly where we don't expect to find him. He's supposed to be a disturbing, unsettling presence. So I think for a Christian, anyway, it's worth keeping in mind that his face won't be comforting or familiar. When I see a black Christ, it makes me a bit uneasy. On some level, I'm not so sure he's with me or I'm with him. Maybe I'm just racist and that's it. But I think if we (again, Christians) can't internalize and believe in Christ that looks different from ourselves, then we're not really believing in him. We're just believing in our own reflections.

Now why, then, do I think it's OK for blacks to look at a black Christ? Simple -- they see a white Christ everywhere they go. I imagine this disassociation is a regular feature of a black Christian's life. So it is a genuine difference in experience that warrants a different response.

That's how I see it anyway.

But I have to say -- Sandeep's position above strikes me as the most sensible objection. I can see why, since he supports someone who said "God damn America," even if he disavows those particular statements, you would have serious doubts about his fitness for the presidency.

My response, though, is twofold. First, I don't think there's any serious belief that Obama shares Wright's most out-there views. I mean, there are some paranoid nutjobs who think he's a well-trained sleeper agent, but those ideas say more about the people that hold them than they say about Obama.

So why would a reasonable, thoughtful, patriotic guy stay in a church run by someone like Wright? I think the reason is, Obama has a fundamentally catholic (small-c) view of America. Wright and the millions of people who share his views are part of the American family, no matter how much some folks wish they weren't. And Obama strikes me as someone who listens to people, who sees the good in them. Wright isn't going to destroy this country. He's not ginning up hate the way Fred Phelps does. He's not someone to be cast out of the circle. His sermons -- the non-soundbyte parts -- show he's someone to be debated, listened to, and engaged. That's the only way to achieve what Obama says he wants to achieve, to move in whatever small way past the old barricades to some new dialogue.

And for me, that's exactly the attitude we need in a leader after the last two decades.

"This statement is so rich with irony it hurts. Republicans! Taking umbrage at the intersection of religion and politics! How dare we tolerate this in America! How dare we believe that the leaders of the Christian Right speak for the Christian Right!"

I already stated that any policy not supported in exclusively secular terms should not be enacted. If Falwell and Robertson are the leaders of the religious right (which would be news to me - I think they're both idiots), do Sharpton and Jackson speak for/represent the black community?

I'm sure you'll just respond with more boilerplate lefty talking points, but a substantive response to what I actually posted would be great.

let's face it. there is something scarey to some white people about a black man loudly articulating a critique of this society. if he had put it in a song, or perhaps danced a little, or joked a little as he said it, then maybe but he just looked so angry.

the content, save for the HIV nonsense is nothing Chomsky hasn't said but then again if Chomsky shouted and were black, well he'd be a problem.

Marcus:

I would have more of a problem with Obama attending a church led by Chomsky than one led by Wright.

Mtgyau,

I'm sure you would, in theory.

(Un)fortunately blacks don't have the luxury of judging people by what church they attend. Were that the case the civil rights movement would never have gotten off the ground for there would be no hope that those who attended lynchings could ever have a change of heart. But such is the burden of ones birth.

I already stated that any policy not supported in exclusively secular terms should not be enacted. If Falwell and Robertson are the leaders of the religious right (which would be news to me - I think they're both idiots), do Sharpton and Jackson speak for/represent the black community?

I'm sure you'll just respond with more boilerplate lefty talking points, but a substantive response to what I actually posted would be great.

Here's another one of those crazy lefty talking points for you: if you think policy should be rooted in secular terms you're in the wrong party.

And here's some substance: you seem to feel that Obama should be condemned because he attended a church where some nutty things have been said. Do you really believe that he is a more overtly religious candidate than Baptist-come-lately John McCain, or that a few crazy things Wright once said have more of a sway over Obama than the fundamentalist wing of the Republican Party has over McCain?

Marcus:

I was mostly making a joke about Chomsky, although Wright and Chomsky appear to have a great deal in common politically speaking.

Although your point makes sense about judging based on what church one attends, you're talking about society in general. We are discussing a presidential candidate and his church, so the point isn't really applicable.

The right seems to have taken this one brief compilation of Wright's wackiest moments to ask, mystified, gosh, what does Barack Obama really believe? All due respect to those conservatives attempting to seem reasonable on this issue, but I can only think that this question comes from a place of bad faith. Perhaps I could refer you to Obama's first visit to dailykos after he was sworn in to the Senate, in which he basically said his mission was to end the divisiveness which he saw dominating politics and to give all sides a respectful hearing. He basically got trashed for hundreds of comments by the kos community for that one. Perhaps I could also refer you to his 2004 Democratic convention speech? Perhaps every speech he's made since commencing his presidential campaign? Heck, maybe Obama has even written and said other things, like books or something? Perhaps he was even involved in politics in some capacity before last March? I don't know ... it seems that someone wondering what Obama "really believes" could look in these places and find something out.

Instead, those who have pretended to fall to the fainting couch since Fox News discovered Jeremiah Wright are wondering whether this Obama fellow, whom we know nothing about, might secretly be a Black Panther.

Also, I don't have a link, but I'm pretty sure that at some point -- one of the times when Obama's response about Wright was simply to compare him to a crazy uncle -- he also added that he's disagreed with Wright on a number of matters and has made that disagreement known. Again, I don't have a link, but I'm sure it was said and some conservative researcher driven by a good faith desire to know could find it. It also goes without saying that Wright himself -- who I take great pains to remind certain commenters IS NOT Barack Obama but is actually a different person with different views -- is likely not the demon that he has been made out to be these last two weeks. In response to a comment upthread I looked up some commentary by Martin Marty about TUCC and was not surprised to find some very kind words.

Finally, I know it probably doesn't apply to folks on this particular comment thread, but it should be kept in mind that many who are expressing rage at Wright's "unAmericanness" are the same folks who sit in the pews every Sunday nodding their heads with approval while their pastor compares the United States as a second Third Reich for allowing abortion to continue.

"Here's another one of those crazy lefty talking points for you: if you think policy should be rooted in secular terms you're in the wrong party."

You're assuming secular arguments always lead to different conclusions than religious ones.

"And here's some substance: you seem to feel that Obama should be condemned because he attended a church where some nutty things have been said. Do you really believe that he is a more overtly religious candidate than Baptist-come-lately John McCain, or that a few crazy things Wright once said have more of a sway over Obama than the fundamentalist wing of the Republican Party has over McCain?"

I don't think Obama should be condemned, period. He doesn't simply attend "a church where some nutty things were said." Forgetting any charges of racism regarding Wright and the church, I have a STRONG aversion to preachers talking politics from the pulpit. I also have a strong aversion, whether fromthe pulpit or elsewhere, to assessing blame, in whole or in part, to the US for 9/11 a few days after it occured. Ditto for conspiracy theories about HIV and advocating anti-Israel policies. Obama has attended a church for 20 years led by a man who believes these things as well as travels with and praises Farrakhan. All of that is sufficient to call into question Obama's beliefs and true commitment to uniting this country, whether along racial lines or not. And no, I don't think Obama is more overtly religious, but that's irrelevant. He is a member of the church and claims Wright as a mentor. Your mentor's beliefs are relevant in a discussion of yours.

mtgyau writes: "I already stated that any policy not supported in exclusively secular terms should not be enacted. If Falwell and Robertson are the leaders of the religious right (which would be news to me - I think they're both idiots), do Sharpton and Jackson speak for/represent the black community?"

You seem to be behind on the news, because Falwell is dead (and good riddance). But you're being amazingly stupid here. The fact is that the right-wing CONSTANTLY claims Sharpton and Jackson speak for the black community, and tie them to the Democrats, when the fact is that they have far less influence over the Dems than Falwell and Robertson and Dobson had or have over the Republican Party.

Mtgyau,

Those statements made by Wright reflect sentiments commonly held in the Black community. So what you find fault with is really with the Black worldview. A worldview shaped in part by horrific experience in the United States.

So I guess the fault lies in the unfortunate enough to be born Black in the country, particularly during the first half of the 20th century.

The Black church is the Black community. I know this is something extremely hard to understand for some people. Obama laid all out for you but you couldn't see it. For him to disown one is for him to disown the other.

What you dislike about Wright's speech is ultimately the mistreatment that created it but you mistake his words for hate. The hate is treatment that the words are a reaction to, not the words themselves.

I have a STRONG aversion to preachers talking politics from the pulpit.

The fact that you're still in the modern Republican party shows that your aversion can't be particularly strong.

You can play the umbrage card all you want, but I suspect you're being 110% disingenuous when you say that this whole thing calls into question "Obama's beliefs and true commitment to uniting this country."

Don't judge Obama by his actions and words over the past 20 years (or the fact that he renounced the words at issue in the context of an honest, true speech). No. Judge him by the craziest thing his pastor has ever said.

Makes total sense.

"You seem to be behind on the news, because Falwell is dead (and good riddance). But you're being amazingly stupid here. The fact is that the right-wing CONSTANTLY claims Sharpton and Jackson speak for the black community, and tie them to the Democrats, when the fact is that they have far less influence over the Dems than Falwell and Robertson and Dobson had or have over the Republican Party."

I used the names others were using, and Falwell was one of those. Sorry for not using past tense. I'm not being stupid - my point was that the people the lefties here keep bringing up don't speak for the religious right any more than Sharpton et al speak for the black community. And it isn't people on the right claiming anything about Sharpton/Jackson - every time a racial issue is brought up the media trots them out as though they speak for all blacks. They're tied to Dims because 90% of the black vote goes to that party, and I'm pretty sure Sharpton and Jackson are, in fact, not Republicans.

Mtgyau,

I know you don't realise it but you just articulated Rev. Wright's position beautifully. You claim not to trust Obama's commitment to his stated cause because of his 20 yr. exposure to Wright. You don't like Wright's views which are based on his mistrust of the larger white society based on his 60+ years as an American.

Your basis for mistrust of Obama is the same as Wright's basis for mistrust of the United States.

Ironic.

Has Obama done anything policywise that would make anyone think that he harbors the views of Wright, or that Wright has any influence on Obama's politics?

um, RICKM, i think the subtext is that all blacks secretly have the same agenda. position papers don't matter. just know they all stick together therefor they can't be trusted.

of course, the above will be cleaned up stated more obliquely but isn't this the real issue when all is said done?

Marcus:

I can “see” just fine. I realize the black church is traditionally much more political, as it had to be during the civil rights movement because it was one place blacks could meet and speak openly about things. The problem is, they can meet anywhere they want to now and espouse whatever beliefs they have, because any criticism of those beliefs is decried as racism. It’s what you and others here are doing – if we don’t agree that Obama’s speech was great or we say Wright should be condemned for his comments, it isn’t a genuine disagreement about the issues, it’s because we’re stupid (we can’t “see”) or we’re racist.

Thanks to all for straightening me out.

Wright is a 66 year old black man, which means - obviously - that there are a number of beliefs that have been built in to his brain, over which he has no control, and the only way responsibility enters this whole mess is that it is MY responsibility to UNDERSTAND HIM.

NAY TO SYMPATHIZE WITH HIM.

And those 66 year old black men who disagree with Mr. Wright, well, I guess it's my responsibility to figure out what we did to screw them up so badly.

It's nice to see responsibility is still valued in this country.

…McCain:

“The fact that you're still in the modern Republican party shows that your aversion can't be particularly strong.”

The party to which I belong has nothing to do with an aversion to politics in the pulpit. The church I attend, on the other hand, does, and you’ll never hear a political rant from the pulpit there.

“You can play the umbrage card all you want, but I suspect you're being 110% disingenuous when you say that this whole thing calls into question "Obama's beliefs and true commitment to uniting this country."
Don't judge Obama by his actions and words over the past 20 years (or the fact that he renounced the words at issue in the context of an honest, true speech). No. Judge him by the craziest thing his pastor has ever said.
Makes total sense.”

I’ll judge Obama based on several things – being raised by an atheist, radical mother, being married to a woman who seems to share some anti-America views despite the amazing amount of success she and her husband have achieved, being a member of a church with at the least an anti-Israel and far left pastor, and having one of the most leftist voting records in his time in the senate.

He is a great orator, but to read his speeches rather than listen to them makes you realize he’s simply rehashing and advocating the expansion of the same old failed leftist policies. There’s nothing new there except the delivery.

I’ll judge Obama based on several things – being raised by an atheist, radical mother, being married to a woman who seems to share some anti-America views despite the amazing amount of success she and her husband have achieved, being a member of a church with at the least an anti-Israel and far left pastor, and having one of the most leftist voting records in his time in the senate.

Bullshit. The way you judge people is to take what they or the people associated with them say in their worst moment and take that to stand for the whole. Just like you're doing with Wright, and with Michelle Obama (an extremely intelligent, accomplished person who very obviously does not hate America despite one inelegant statement). Don't try to cop to some sort of reasoned appeal or judgment. You're not examining the whole and concluding you disagree -- I could respect you for that. Instead you're 100% hypocrite -- you pose as someone who considers the facts, but you're only cherry picking the worst and trying to suggest it reveals more than every other thing the person has ever said and done.

"I know you don't realise it but you just articulated Rev. Wright's position beautifully. You claim not to trust Obama's commitment to his stated cause because of his 20 yr. exposure to Wright. You don't like Wright's views which are based on his mistrust of the larger white society based on his 60+ years as an American.

Your basis for mistrust of Obama is the same as Wright's basis for mistrust of the United States.

Ironic."

I don't think you understand irony. The big difference here is that Obama CHOSE the church he attended for the last 20 years. The irony is that you don't think 20 years under Wright's preaching has had any impact on Obama (well, just the good stuff - Obama is impervious to negativity), yet Wright has not only been impacted by a white society, he apparently is incapable of any response other than hatred of republicans (Dims get a pass, somehow, as though they've never been in power).

mtgyau-

You're assuming that out of context soundbites were emblematic of Wright's entire style of preaching.

Okay, show of hands. Anyone posting here every listen to more than the Wright soundbites? Like, perhaps, the totality of the sermons available for sale. Anyone know anybody who is a member of that Church? Anyone ever attend a sermon at the Church? Attedn any black church? Regularly venture into black neighborhoods other than patronizing the latest hip Ethiopian restautant. Anyone?

That's what I thought.

Mtgyau-

I get irony, though you've shown that it is quite questionable as to whether the understanding is mutual.

Again, read this slowly: Wrights views are COMMONLY HELD BY BLACKS. So try as you might to make this an issue about choice, you cannot. Unless of course you wish to pretend they are not but which is up to you. I cannot control your fantasy life. Nor would I want to.

As for this passage: "yet Wright has not only been impacted by a white society, he apparently is incapable of any response other than hatred of republicans (Dims get a pass, somehow, as though they've never been in power)."

I'm left only scratching my head, and saying huh?

Both you and Wright see the world in similar terms. For Wright, structural white power is endemic and never ending. For you, Black "anger" (separate and apart from whether or not you understand it) cannot be side stepped or negotiated. It exists as a given and any Black person exposed to it is contaminated by it. Neither you nor Wright leave room for the individual diiferentiation. No room for nuance; no room for understanding.

This is what makes your stance against Obama and his church ironic. The very thing you abhor is the very thing you embody. Hence, irony.

[...I must ask whether he worked to persuade Wright and the parishioners who applauded so jubilantly at his divisive words that they were wrong on a matter of existential importance. If he did, what was the consequence of those efforts? Did he succeed in bringing about change at Trinity?"]


Obama's speech IS working to persuade Wright and the parishioners. Obama never had a better time to reach more people convincingly on this issue than Tuesday. He probably sent intellectual shock waves through that congregation. Obama was a Hyde Park guy who grew up out-of-state; single moms from South Side wouldn't listen to this smooth pol urging them to consider that "working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race." How many times do you think Jeremiah Wright and members of Trinity are going to read a speech by one of their own, now up for the presidency? How many kids are going to be reading this speech in schools in 10 years, and reconsider their views on race?

I think this speech persuades Trinity's pastors (and Wright, and large swathes of urban black America, and many racially resentful whites) to take a measured look at these issues. NRO Corner like it or not, it’s a speech that will bleed into the national consciousness for years to come, [possibly] at the expense of his candidacy. Obama's negatives will inch up and the far right will solidify their opposition because he didn’t totally disown Wright--but he's probably broken the "stalemate" he was talking about.

Randall: Everybody should put at least a little effort into understanding others, shouldn't they? At a minimum, why should we accept that Wright is some kind of irredeemable beast based upon a "greatest hits" clipfest promoted by Sean Hannity? It's possible he's a pretty decent guy who lets his mouth get away from him sometimes. That's certainly what Martin Marty seems to think. (The attacks against Obama really are just a syllogism based upon ridiculous premises like this, e.g., Jeremiah Wright is an awful person; being a member of TUCC means you agree with everything ever uttered by this awful person; therefore Barack Obama must be an awful person.)

mtgyau: If this were the 1980s, we'd be calling the Obamas "yuppies." They're completely incorporated into the establishment. Nice colleges, nice jobs, etc. Heck, Barack even has a lengthy record in government that any person can review! Yet you persist in doing this suspicious "maybe they're closet radicals" thing. It's really unbelievable. It's like when conservatives used to say Hillary Clinton had all sorts of radical suprises in store for the country based upon a college paper she wrote. What happened there? This is not a process of honest evaluation of a candidate. It is a process that all political partisans do of looking for reasons to not only oppose the opposition, but to viscerally hate them and to label them threats to the republic. Obama's lengthy public record gives no indication he's some kind of secret anti-semite, black panther, communist, etc. It's ridiculous.

And on that "most liberal" thing, I think it's been noted somewhere that he got labeled so liberal because (among other things) he supported certain good government/transparency measures. He's a total milquetoast. If he were in the House he'd in the dead center. Do you think he compares with Dennis Kucinich or John Conyers?

McCain:

You're wrong. My comment about Michelle Obama isn't based entirely on her one statement, especially since she said it at least 2 times. It's also based on her undergraduate thesis. Have you read any of it? She hasn't changed much - she still says she was always told by "they" what she couldn't do, yet apparently "they" admitted her to an ivy league school for which she - by her own admission - didn't have the test scores to get into, and she has done pretty darned well for herself since then. Yet we are to feel guilty about this country rather than proud of it for giving her the opportunities she has had?!? Heh?

Also, ABC's story on Wright pulled quotes from "dozens" of sermons voicing similar sentiments. It can't be explained away as "his worst moment." It's been lots of moments.

Steve,

Let's just say that I am as interested in understanding Jeremiah Wright as he is in understanding me, and (ahem, cough cough) my people.

the belief that Obama is some sort of closet radical, anti-semite, black panther sleeper becomes less silly once you understand that many on the right see this as the default of any black politician.

this is why the appeal to the record never works because they are thinking, "of course he wouldn't put that in his record silly. that's how sneeky they are."

thus you are left, essentially trying to prove a negative. In other words, Obama has to prove he wasn't infuenced by Wright. Yet not test is ever enough because deep down they know he's lying. I have expect someone on the right to ask for the dunking cure to set their minds at ease.

Still waiting for that show of hands . . .

Randall, why use Rev. Wright as the standard to determine whether you are interested in understanding? Why not use Obama?

Marcus:

"Again, read this slowly: Wrights views are COMMONLY HELD BY BLACKS. So try as you might to make this an issue about choice, you cannot...

For you, Black "anger" (separate and apart from whether or not you understand it) cannot be side stepped or negotiated. It exists as a given and any Black person exposed to it is contaminated by it. Neither you nor Wright leave room for the individual diiferentiation. No room for nuance; no room for understanding."

So is there choice involved or not? I never said black anger couldn't be side-stepped. You're basically saying that Wright is the way he is because of outside influences, yet Obama is impervious to any negative influence from Wright despite sitting under his preaching for 20 years. So which is it - choice or no choice?

Also, Obama hasn't just been "exposed to it" - he chose to be exposed to it for his entire adult life, after a childhood with a radical mother.

my hands up, but I'm Black so I supposed that's cheating somehow.

Mtgyau,

You're a fighter. I like that. Here we go:

Obama's view of this country is different than Wright's. They are different generations. Their experiences are different. What Obama got from Wright was a way toward Christ. He did not get a political worldview from Wright.

You think he did. You equate a 20 year friendship with 66 years as a Black man in America. That's the source of your confusion. You can't let of go of the idea that Obama must have been influenced by this. You discount the time he spent with his white mother and grandparents, so strong to you see Wright's pull on Obama's mind.

I suppose Hillary must be an adulturer given the 30+ years she's spent living with one.

You are frightened of Wright in ways that I imagine Obama isn't. Because Obama knows that parts what Wright says are nonsense because he's lived in the other world. But since you haven't done the same, you have the fear and there for push Obama to that side because you can't imagine any Black person being able to withstand that stuff for that long.

At the end of the day you profoundly underestimate Black people, possible through lack of meaningful relationships with a Black person. That is unfortunate but such is life.

So to answer your question it is choice but not the way you see it. It's choice the way Black people see it. He choice to accept that which he wanted to believe and discard that which he chose not to believe. Obviously you don't believe him but that is not because he's lying to you but because you don't think he is capable of making that choice. And that has more to do with your view of what Black peoples capacity to be open-minded that the underlying openmindedness in question.

blanket apology for all typos . . .yikes.

REPOST, CLEANED UP A BIT

Obama's view of this country is different than Wright's. They are different generations. Their experiences are different. What Obama got from Wright was a way toward Christ. He did not get a political worldview.

You think he did. You equate a 20 year friendship with Wrights 66 years as a Black man in America. That's the source of your confusion. You can't let of go of the idea that Obama must have been influenced by this. You discount the time he spent with his white mother and grandparents, so strong do you see Wright's pull on Obama's mind and soul.

I suppose Hillary must be an adulturer given the 30+ years she's spent living with one.

You are frightened of Wright in ways that I imagine Obama isn't. Obama knows that parts what Wright says are nonsense because he's lived in the other world. But since you haven't lived in a Black world, you fear the anger and therefor push Obama to that side. You simply cannot imagine any Black person being able to withstand that stuff for 20 years and not being affected. Truth of the matter is we do this all the time.

At the end of the day you profoundly underestimate Black people, possibly through a lack of meaningful relationships with a Black person. I won't say hatred because I don't know you and you don't strike me that way.

So to answer your question, it IS choice but not the way you see it. It's choice the way Black people see it. He chose to accept that which he could in good conscience and discard that which he could not. Obviously you don't believe him but that is not because he is lying to you but because you don't think he is capable of making that choice. Fair enough but that has more to do with your view of a certain capacity of Black people but not the underlying capacity itself.

This happens every election cycle.

Like it or not: It’s not a detriment to call a politician a conservative it is a detriment to call them a liberal.

This is a direct causal reaction to the politics of people like Wright.

As close one can associate conservatives with their loonies, it doesn’t seem to lose them elections.

It is a center right country, not a center left country.

Let's play a small thought experiment:

Is it possible to work with someone for years and simultaneously do the following: consider them a colleague, oppose 90% or more of what they do, fairly regularly attack them for proposing or endorsing things that endanger the country, regularly work toward the end of having them removed from their job, and, still, nevertheless, join with them to work together and even to co-originate certain projects.

Sound familiar? I am describing some of strange-bedfellows who make up the U.S. Senate. Think McCain-Feingold, or Kennedy-McCain, or Obama-Colburn. . . or even more absurd combinations.

Robert Byrd, whom I admire for his steadfast and eloquent opposition to the Iraq War, once dallied with the KKK. The man is still in the US Senate. As is John McCain, who sings "Bomb, bomb, bomb; bomb Iran" and has referred to Vietnamese as "Gooks" (the functional equivalent of you know exactly what word).

So Barack Obama had his conversion experience with Rev Wright. Rev Wright was a US Marine. Yes, he has said some stupid and atrocious things. He has said some controversial things that are not at all atrociois. And there are plenty of 100% credible reports from all sorts of people, of different races, that the Rev Wright and his Church do extraordinary community work and welcome - yes, welcome - white people who attend their services.

The NY Times this Sunday will be running a short interview with the Rev John Haggee in which he says the McCain campaign sought out his endorsement. Will this also be cause for furor? McCain has already said he does not endorse all that Rev Hagee says, but he sought his endorsement and appeared on stage with him to showcase his endorsement.

I do not want to ask McCain to throw Rev Hagee under the bus . . . a phrase that I believe was introduced to us when the Clinton Administration jettisoned its longstanding relationship with the accomplished and honored legal scholar, Loni Guinier.

Instead, I want to hear Sen McCain explain the white evangelical church to the country and explain how he understands the mix of Rev Hagee's opinions, both those he opposes and those he wanted to be associated with in an endorsement. I want Sen McCain to explain the relationships between conservative white evangelical Protestantism and the Catholic Church, as well as with Judaism and Islam and Hinduism and atheism.

I want to find out which of the candidates running for office understands America, for that is as important an issue as whether they understand Iraq or Saudi Arabia or Iran or the international economy.

Yes, Obama will be dogged by the YouTube videos of Rev Wright. But he has also set the bar for grasping the state of America, the good and the bad, and pointing a way toward breaking a toxic paralysis that has damaged our country severely.

Let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone. And whether they are with or without sin, it is time for the other candidates to step up to the microphone to show us what they've got. It isn't a test of eloquence, though having a president who can utter a string of complete sentences would be a good role model for our failing schools and a relief on the ear and the brain. It is a test of grasping the country's history and its soul, and showing the ability to lead us to a higher ground, and not into a swamp.

mtgyau:

Also, ABC's story on Wright pulled quotes from "dozens" of sermons voicing similar sentiments. It can't be explained away as "his worst moment." It's been lots of moments.

Another example of exaggeration. ABC's initial story said they reviewed 12 sermons, and found the clips they showed. I think it's fair to assume the stuff they didn't show was innocuous, or at least not as incendiary.

Certainly followups have found other controversial statements, but it's pretty thin gruel. He said the government has failed its Black citizens, which doesn't seem too controversial whether you agree or not. He said the government was racist, which again isn't too surprising.

Again, the content of even the most incendiary statements may be cringe-worthy in their tone or bluntness, but I'm having a hard time interpreting them as "white people are inherently bad," or "America is inherently bad."

Do you think Wright disagrees with the Constitution or Declaration of Independence, or does he think America is not living up to the ideals of those documents? To me, criticizing the nation for not living up to its ideals is part of normal American discourse.

mtgyau replies: "I used the names others were using, and Falwell was one of those. Sorry for not using past tense. I'm not being stupid - my point was that the people the lefties here keep bringing up don't speak for the religious right any more than Sharpton et al speak for the black community."

Of course they do or did, chuckles. Did you just land on this planet? Falwell and Robertson and their incestuous relationship with the GOP were instrumental in building the religious right as a cohesive political force. Christian Coalition, Moral Majority - do these have any meaning for you?

Perhaps you're not being stupid, just disingenuous, trying to distance your party from these idiots - but it's not working. The GOP has been in bed with them for too long. It's STILL in bed with them, and McCain wouldn't have gotten the nomination if he hadn't decided to finally give them an occasional tongue bath.

Fitz says: "It is a center right country, not a center left country. "

Things change. When it was founded, it was to the left of every country in the Western world. I don't thnk today's conservatives would have fit in - they would have been too busy sucking up to crazy King George.

Come to think of it, that's what most of them are doing today.

After the Depression this became a center left country, and that country won WWII. As a center right country it can't handle a Third World country like Iraq. I guess it's the retarded, selfish leadership we have today, which is far more interested in further enriching billionaires than it is in anything else.

Massive incompetence and neglect like we've seen from the Bushpigs has a way of shifting the political slant of a country.

Ross, I think it's unfortunate that you would "associate yourself" with that passage from Cost's post. Cost says: "I am not sure what I think about Obama's claim that he never heard Wright make incendiary comments. I think that hinges on the definition of 'incendiary.'"

As far as I can tell, Obama said no such thing. In fact, he specifically said he did hear Wright say things that were "controversial":

"Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely...."

Now, he didn't use the word "incendiary" in the speech, and maybe you could parse some sort of distinction between "controversial" and "incendiary," but that would be splitting hairs.

well, well, well

Andrew Sullivan just posted this link to Politico.com with . . . . drum roll, please:

A photo of Bill Clinton shaking rev Wright's hand at the 1998 White House prayer lunch devoted to Bill's repentance over Monica!

1) let's skip the shame, shame routine and, instead, focus on this

2) Rev Wright is a religious leader of some note, and

3) Politico links to web site established by a Church member at which they also posted a photo Wright as a Navay hospital corpsman attending to President Johnson during or after surgery in 1966.

As John Stewart suggested, Obama spoke to the nation AS IF we were adults. Can even meet a comedian's challenge to behave like adult citizens?

well, well, well

Andrew Sullivan just posted this link to Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Jeremiah_Wright_was_White_House_guest.html) . . . . drum roll, please:

A photo of Bill Clinton shaking rev Wright's hand at the 1998 White House prayer lunch devoted to Bill's repentance over Monica!

1) let's skip the shame, shame routine and, instead, focus on this

2) Rev Wright is a religious leader of some note, and

3) Politico links to web site established by a Church member at which they also posted a photo Wright as a Navay hospital corpsman attending to President Johnson during or after surgery in 1966.

As John Stewart suggested, Obama spoke to the nation AS IF we were adults. Can even meet a comedian's challenge to behave like adult citizens?

At work, everyone was commenting on Wright and his speech. (A crowd of 30-45 year olds with some 20 somethings, of all races). Some mentioned how good his speech was - but not many watched it. Some mentioned he should have said he screwed up not denouncing the racist, but more importantly, the specifically anti-American messages, and he ducked any mention of He, Obama, erring in saying the "problem" has nothing to do with him, but with the nation.

But everyone mentioned him throwing the grandmother that raised him under the bus. Everyone.
Especially the minorities, most of all Asians and Hispanics though one black woman raised by her grandma said Obama had to be lying. There is no way he would publicly disgrace her without her say-so so he could be elected.
The consensus was, you don't disgrace the woman that raised you to strangers. Never. And why was being afraid of young black thugs the same as what Wright said?

Dissing the woman that rode a bus and worked decades putting you through private school after you being dumped by the mother?

It's like jeering your kid at a Little League game for an error or strikeout....

It-Just-Isn't-Done.

Chris, Chris, Chris

Obama did not diss his grandmother. He did not say she got worried when "young black thugs" walked by her on the street. You translated black men into black thugs, which is the very reaction Obama was talking about - gently, with respect to his grandmother.

In fact, many of us have parents and grandparents who said such things that made us cringe. What Obama did was to treat them the same as treated rev Wright - to love them and disagree with them, and to try in his life to make people see things differently.

many of us have faced that sort of issue with parents and grandparents.

As a nation, we face it with our founding fathers, and this is how Obama framed his speech, by referring to the original sin of slavery and the quest to build a more perfect union. He did not diss Jefferson and Madison and Washington, nor did he throw them or anyone else under the bus. But he talked about how those men who owned slaves and said and DID atrocious things to black people ALSO are or founding fathers, who also helped to define the meaning of equality, and gave a Constitutional framework for building a better country.

I think Obama's point overall is that it is time for us all to stop throwing each other under the bus.

The other part of the workplace conversation was on patriotism. People remarking on "AmeriKKKa, the evil", "God Damn America! Damn It!!", "America created AIDs to kill blacks" that Obama stood by for 20 years listening to it being spewed, doing nothing.

And besides Wright, Obama's other associates that dislike America, former SDS terrorists, his NOI people on staff, his wife not being proud of America, his wealthy Jewish Hard Left donors that believe America is obsolete in the age of International Law, UN bodies ready to lead the Planet. His "most liberal voting record of any Illinois State Senator, US Senator". Even his vaunted 2002 speech which was ideologically, just saying what Vladimir Putin, Jacques de Villipen, Muslim activists abroad, "Red Ken" Livingston of London, Saddam himself - was saying about invading Iraq being wrong. Obama admits he did his speech based on no knowledge or intelligence reading. There is a good chance his speech wasn't some prescient token of superior judgement, just Hard Left speech-making like the others,

And "God Damn America! Damn it!" leads one to wonde if John McCain would tolerate being in the same room with someone ranting and cursing his country - or if he would speak out. Even if that meant another 4-hour merciless beating by communist captors.

America has elected other assholes not totally consonant with their political beliefs - like Harry Truman, JFK, Reagan - because they had no doubt that they were true America-lovers and would represent us and defend us against foreign leaders that spoke like Rev Wright did.

@Randall: Trent Lott showed his solidarity for a man synonymous with racism, and subsequently resigned under pressure. 'Contexualization' of this incident did take place -- indeed, it was when his statement was placed in context of his civil rights voting record that it reentered the public sphere, and led to his downfall. Conversely, placing Obama's relationship to his racist pastor in context has alleviated the original furor.

Context isn't always a good thing.

>>> Randall, why use Rev. Wright as the standard to determine whether you are interested in understanding? Why not use Obama?

Good question.

Mainly, because Obama did not walk out on Wright, or ever even express disagreement. Anyone I could respect would - at least - never return after some of Reverend Wright's voodoo.

If he had, the dead would know about it by now.

Because Obama LIKED this message. Because his wife seems to STILL like it in a (very slightly) toned down version. Because Obama chose to expose his children to it.

Obama's choice of mentors has been enormously disappointing to me. Jeremiah Wright was the best he could do? Jeebus.

I was prepared to peacefully accept him as my president. No, I will have to passively aggressively disapprove. This is very inconvenient for me.


Also, I just wasn't as impressed with Obama's speech as some people.

"Gradnma's private concerns about black men are no different from public career in a position of authority based on blaming white people for all the problems black people face."

"Fear of crime is 'exploited' by politicians."

Yeah, sure. Fear of crime is such an unreasonable concern that it must be some sort of trumped up racist deal.

"Let's form a rainbow coalition to take on the "real" culprits - the owners of the means of production. Victimization knows no color."

By "contextualized," I meant EXCUSED.

Trent Lott wasn't "contextualized," he was smeared.

I felt he needed to go, just out of the sheer stupidity of the remark. I never felt - nor did any rational person - that he was saying anything like, "Strom Thurmond was really a better gent when he wore a white sheet."

Like an idiot, I thought the same standard should and would apply to black people in authority, but apparently it does not.

chris ford-

Where in the heck do you work, the Republican National Committee?

HIIJMcCain wants to know: "chris ford-

Where in the heck do you work, the Republican National Committee?"

They fired him. He's now working in Dick Cheney's bunker, alphabetizing Dick's collection of snuff films.


I'm a black man and honestly, Obama's speech made me see that I might actually have serious resentments towards white Americans. Resentments that should be weighed against the resentments that whites have towards me. The way that he explained both sides from the perspective of someone who comes from both of our cultures was very unique and because of his candidacy, very historical.

I always thought it was stupid that white people complain about things like affirmative action at schools like the university I went to (which was 90% white). I always saw those kind of statements as the greed of some whites who want 100% of everything in this country. I always hated the fact that whites complain about having to be politically correct when in fact all black people know that political correctness is a dam that holds back a flood of hurtful feelings. Feelings that seep through cracks in the dam every single day.

We are suffering every day and I apologize if I never noticed that you might be suffering too.

A few years ago, my mother's boss, whom she has worked with for decades, made reference to a "nigger woman who used to cook for him". He accidentally said that in front of my black mother in the middle of a friendly conversation they were having.

When I started school at Texas A&M, my mother and I were on our way to freshman orientation when a truck full of A&M students shouted racial slurs at us. It was as if they were saying, welcome to Texas A&M University.

When I was 9, my best friend, a little white boy named Kyle, told me that I had to leave his birthday party because his family doesn't like black people. We both stood their in tears and I got on my bike and went home. I walked into my grandmother's house in tears (the house was full of family members that day) and they thought something serious had happened. When I told them what happened, they all told me that that was the way life is.

It's been like this for me throughout my entire 32 years on this Earth. One thing after another with pauses in between. I have often waited on God to come and punish white people for being so evil towards people who never fight back. We kill each other in black on black crime but we almost never harm the white people who helped make us the way we are. The ones who killed my grandfather's friends and through them in the river in the Port of Beaumont. The white sheriff who raped my great grandmother and gave me my lighter complexion. The white policemen who threw my female cousin on the ground after she'd just been released from the hospital after a car accident (mistaken identity).

It's hard to tell the good whites from the bad ones "sometimes" but I knew that God knew who they were and I figured that he'd probably punish your whole race because your good people stood by and made excuses while we were suffering like this.

So when I heard Jeremiah Wright's comments, I didn't bat an eye. I knew he didn't really want God to damn the whole country. A country that holds his own family members. No. He was just asking God to deliver us from the sometimes abusive power of this country.

Obama's speech asked me to see your side and sympathize with you.

Posted by H.R. | March 20, 2008 3:11 PM

H.R.,

Thank you for your extremely enlightening post.

I now know I'm guilty of underestimating the amount of racism still out there. Going by your age, you started at A&M some 20 years after I started at Rice, and I'm shocked to hear of the slurs shouted at you and your mother, by college-bound young men no less. Even my redneck brother, 14 years my senior, long ago ceased to use the n-word.

However, you may have been seeing a phenomenon Obama touched on: white resentment of affirmative action. One problem with affirmative action is that others may assume a person of color got where they are not through merit, but because of their skin.

Please allow me to explain the white point of view, or at least the white point of view as I see it. As Obama said, many resent being blamed for things none of us ever did and most of us wouldn't want to do. Many also resent having to be super-sensitive about race.

Here's an example. One day in a long line at Walgreen's, I complimented the black woman ahead of me on the smart, tiny bag she carried. She laughed and said she'd left the big one she put it in in the car. Then I said I admired her posture. She attributed it to ballet lessons. I said, "Good. Now I don't have to hate you." She reacted as if she'd been slapped and turned away.

Understand, I was smiling the whole while. Evidently she didn't know I was referring to the commercial in which Andie McDowell said, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." A white woman would probably have smiled quizzically, inviting me to explain. (This is Texas. I strike up conversations everywhere.) But the line was moving, and I couldn't stop the black woman and force her to listen to my explanation.

Her experience had prompted her to assume the worst on my part. And experiences like this prompts whites to assume they can't win. Even if you mean well, even an unintentional misstep risks the other person making another sort of peremptory judgment. Might as well stay silent and not even try.

May I suggest that you too may sometimes misinterpret. White policemen throw white women on the ground, too. Undoubtedly they sometimes beat white men, and a few have gone to jail for raping white women. In your grandfather's and great-grandmother's day, white murderers and rapists of blacks might not have been prosecuted. But today they are.

You write that black people "kill each other in black on black crime but we almost never harm the white people who helped make us the way we are." This statement, to me, pretty well embodies much of the racial division in America. It just isn't true. See http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/ovracetab.htm.. From 1976 through 2005, whites killing blacks accounted for 1.8% to 3.5% of all homicides. Blacks killing whites accounted for 5.9% to 8.9%. You assume that the facts go the other way and also that blacks kill whites because whites "helped make us that way," or you appear to.

I say embodies because I think it also provokes a certain reaction in many whites. They see a double standard. People are prosecuted for discriminating against blacks but never against whites. The Supreme Court enforces some pro-black discrimination. Legally, it appears, the system tilts toward blacks. So we have a very hard time understanding why some blacks blame us for all forms of black misbehavior.

We're having this discussion because of anti-white rhetoric by a presidential candidate's pastor, and some commentators are saying that whites have to understand, because such rhetoric is common in black churches for historical reasons.

Many whites see this as another double standard. Nobody who belonged to a white racist church could get near the US Senate, let alone the presidency. The media don't tolerate white racist statements from anybody of influence, not just presidential advisors.

I have an unusual standpoint here. I belong to a minority even smaller than blacks, but historically as discriminated against. I'm in a wheelchair. People like me used to be considered so incapable that there exist only two photos of Franklin Roosevelt in a wheelchair; many Americans still don't know that he needed leg braces to stand even briefly.

And while we were never barred from voting, only in 1990 did the law make polling places accessible to people in wheelchairs. That's when discrimination against the disabled was legally outlawed, decades after racial discrimination was.

I don't spend a bit of time fretting over the lack of people like me in certain jobs or featured as TV or film characters. Can you imagine someone in a wheelchair starring in a major motion picture? I can -- when people in wheelchairs prove themselves so capable or compelling that they can't be ignored. Just let us compete fairly.

For me, the day when Martin Luther King's dream is realized can't come too soon: the day when we're all judged on the content of our character, not the color of our skin or any other superficial feature. I wish all people felt the same.

RRe: ".. The essential problem of the speech is that it gives no answer to these queries."

We have heard 2 snippets of Wright's sermons. We (or at least I) do not know how those sermons ended. To move beyond anger you have to first recognize it and validate it. Then the question becomes what does one do next. In general, it seems like the MSM reaction has tbeen to hear the anger, condemn it and run in fear. Obama has clearly and consistently made a case for healing and for finding the common ground rooted in the better part of our natures to move forward toward common goals. I am not sure what Wright does with it. What was the takeaway of the sermon in question? How did it end? What questions did it ask? It disturbs me that so few seem to be interested in what the end of Wright's message might have been and what questions he may have answered or left unanswered for his parishioners. I don't know the answers, maybe he preached a sermon of hate but maybe it was one about redemption. How are we to know when all I keep hearing are those same snippets over and over and over again. Obama's recognition of controversial statements is not an acknowledgement that his pastor preached a ministry of hate.
I have not heard of Trinity UCC being known for hate acts or repugnant protests outside of soldiers' funerals or the like. My understanding is that Wright and the Church have been involved in projects aimed to lift the poor up, help the sick and lift up the black community through a value system that supports self-reliance. What is so scary about that?

RRe: ".. The essential problem of the speech is that it gives no answer to these queries."

We have heard 2 snippets of Wright's sermons. We (or at least I) do not know how those sermons ended. To move beyond anger you have to first recognize it and validate it. Then the question becomes what does one do next. In general, it seems like the MSM reaction has tbeen to hear the anger, condemn it and run in fear. Obama has clearly and consistently made a case for healing and for finding the common ground rooted in the better part of our natures to move forward toward common goals. I am not sure what Wright does with it. What was the takeaway of the sermon in question? How did it end? What questions did it ask? It disturbs me that so few seem to be interested in what the end of Wright's message might have been and what questions he may have answered or left unanswered for his parishioners. I don't know the answers, maybe he preached a sermon of hate but maybe it was one about redemption. How are we to know when all I keep hearing are those same snippets over and over and over again. Obama's recognition of controversial statements is not an acknowledgement that his pastor preached a ministry of hate.
I have not heard of Trinity UCC being known for hate acts or repugnant protests outside of soldiers' funerals or the like. My understanding is that Wright and the Church have been involved in projects aimed to lift the poor up, help the sick and lift up the black community through a value system that supports self-reliance. What is so scary about that?

If Falwell and Robertson are the leaders of the religious right (which would be news to me - I think they're both idiots), do Sharpton and Jackson speak for/represent the black community?

The religious right normally refers to a fundamentalist Christian viewpoint - in this sense, yes, Falwell and Robertson do speak for/represent this subset of Christians, as evidenced by their immense funding, mailing lists, and media ubiquity. In the same sense, Sharpton and Jackson speak for/represent a racialist subset of the black community, but not the whole.

As for the Trent Lott apologist, it was the 'contextualization' of his comments, as his hagiography of Thurmond was parsed in light of his own civil rights voting record, that eventually forced Lott's resignation. Once his errant comment was put in context, it looked rather less errant than was considered at first blush.

Of course, a great deal of the caterwauling coming from this whole affair hinges on taking Wright's comments out of context, ironically.

I’ll judge Obama based on several things – being raised by an atheist, radical mother...being a member of a church with at the least an anti-Israel and far left pastor, and having one of the most leftist voting records in his time in the senate.

So if his mother was an atheist, and he later in life became a devout Christian, doesn't this speak to him not internalizing every negative message delivered by influential figures? If your animus against Obama lies on his liberal views, rather than unsupported presumptions of BLT taint, then just say so.

Alyosha:

I do think people are interested in the larger story of other people's lives, but it takes a quiet moment for people to become interested. These days, we don't get so many quiet moments, like we should.

I take interest. I am geniunely interested in your perspective, for instance, and I want to learn more.

I don't think we're seperated by ideals or morals, so much as we are separated by moments. We must learn to "live in the moment" with our integrity in tact. This seems so simple, yet it appears the most difficult to accompli.

@Chris Ford: So your coworkers, whom you admitted 'haven't watched the speech,' somehow managed to magically come to a consensus about its content that conveniently mirrors right-wing boilerplate? Judging by the visceral nature of your response, completely void of nuance, to a speech that the majority of your coworkers are simply speculating about, well...let's just say I doubt your apoplexy is in good faith.

You're better than this, ford.

OT, sorry 'bout the earlier double post.

So three "unnamed employees of an unnamed contractor" have been fired by the State Dept. for illegally accessing Obama's passport files.
This should be easy:
Who hired the contractor? What were they paid?
What are the names of the employees, their backgrounds, and what were they paid?
Who was handed this case in the State Dept. and why was it buried for three months?
Pretty straightforward: The Bush machine helping out the Clinton machine.
Politics as usual, more crony capitalism at play.
Time for a Change.

Epicurian Quaker - Chris Ford: So your coworkers, whom you admitted 'haven't watched the speech,' somehow managed to magically come to a consensus about its content that conveniently mirrors right-wing boilerplate?

No, I said many liked the speech, though few watched the whole thing. It was also in text and some said they liked what they heard of the 5-10 minutes they saw.
I said a subset was disappointed that he didn't take responsibility for not speaking out.

And I said that almost everyone had seen the sound bite local media played of the "throw grandma under the bus" moment morally equating Grams and Geraldine to Wright. That was the one 15 second bit of his speech the local stations went with. Likely because it was controversial. Or the co-workers read it, or heard about it over all other parts of his speech from someone else.

But everyone was thinking he should have never dragged his grandmother into it..

Marcus:

“You equate a 20 year friendship with 66 years as a Black man in America. That's the source of your confusion. You can't let of go of the idea that Obama must have been influenced by this. You discount the time he spent with his white mother and grandparents, so strong to you see Wright's pull on Obama's mind.
I suppose Hillary must be an adulturer given the 30+ years she's spent living with one.”

Actually, I don’t discount the time he spent with his white mother and grandparents. His white mother was an America-hating radical and he has said his grandmother was at a minimum a closet racist. It would certainly follow that he would end up in a church that focuses on an ideology that whites are all racists and America is run by them.

Also, Hillary isn't an adulterer because of her marriage to one, she's amoral because of her marriage to one. It's actually a stretch to call it a marriage - "merger" would be more appropriate. Their relationship is much more about power than anything else.

“You are frightened of Wright in ways that I imagine Obama isn't. Because Obama knows that parts what Wright says are nonsense because he's lived in the other world. But since you haven't done the same, you have the fear and there for push Obama to that side because you can't imagine any Black person being able to withstand that stuff for that long.
At the end of the day you profoundly underestimate Black people, possible through lack of meaningful relationships with a Black person. That is unfortunate but such is life.
So to answer your question it is choice but not the way you see it. It's choice the way Black people see it. He choice to accept that which he wanted to believe and discard that which he chose not to believe. Obviously you don't believe him but that is not because he's lying to you but because you don't think he is capable of making that choice. And that has more to do with your view of what Black peoples capacity to be open-minded that the underlying openmindedness in question.”

Quit foisting this “white guy who’s afraid of blacks” condescending crap on me. My not believing him has absolutely nothing to do with my perception of his ability to choose. It has everything to do with the choices he has actually made, including being a member of Wright’s church. You keep saying a lot of blacks feel the way Wright does. I know that, and it’s a problem because it’s absurd. Race relations will never improve with people spouting conspiracy theories from the pulpit and politicians enabling them by being faithful members of their congregations. Obama’s speech has some strong points made, but they ring hollow because of the company he keeps. The real problem for Obama is that now that he’s outside of Chicago, he’s facing for the first time in his political life an audience that isn’t receptive to Wright’s message. He screwed his democratic opposition out of her ability to run against him for state office and he was essentially unopposed in his US senate race. He’s never had to “defend” Wright before and he isn’t handling it well. The reason he started off with mild reactions to the controversy is because he didn’t see what the fuss was about, because Wright’s views don’t seem radical to him. That isn’t because Obama isn’t intelligent or capable of choosing, it’s because he has chosen far leftist views.

Epicurean:

"So if his mother was an atheist, and he later in life became a devout Christian, doesn't this speak to him not internalizing every negative message delivered by influential figures? If your animus against Obama lies on his liberal views, rather than unsupported presumptions of BLT taint, then just say so."

You say devout, although he himself has said he's drawn more to the social justice aspects than the salvation aspect. What's telling is that he joined a church with an overtly political pastor with anti-American and anti-Israel views, views shared by his mother and wife. And my opposition is based on BOTH his leftist views AND presumptions about BLT.

mtgyau, not that it will probably make any difference to you but there's a Youtube clip you might want to check out. I personally don't find the religious argument compelling, I am after all an atheist, but it might be interesting to see what you, a christian, think of a clip of Wright preaching. It's a clip that covers one of the soundbite clips that is being used to smear Wright and by association Obama. It's about 8 minutes and I realize you might not view it since you've already decided what you want to think. But, I would appreciate an honest reaction from you to the entirety of the clip. Would you have have left your church if the following had been preached from your church's pulpit?

The clip is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ&eurl

swells

I can’t answer for mtgyau only for myself.

One suspected that the bulk of Wrights message was standard even good Christian preaching.

It’s the outlier stuff that’s so shocking however. The clip where he talks about Clinton "riding" Monica & simulates sex on the pulpit and so forth is one of the most damaging.

Part of the success of the guilt by association with Pastor Wright is the message it sends to mainstream Christians. This kind of behavior is way out of the norm for what people hear from the pulpit. It’s vile and shocking precisely because its coming from a pulpit.

On the other hand – one expects to find Christian preachers preaching Christianity.

Fitz, do you have a link to the clip you mention? Heck, if there's some sex talk involved I might start going to church. My wife used to play piano for a church (white, Methodist, southern) and she said the pastor there used to rail against the sins of gays in pretty graphic detail so I don't know how out of the mainstream such a thing would be. Don't know because I don't go to church. My wife's an atheist too, it was just a paying job for her. She finally quit the job because she couldn't stand the sermons where the preacher spent the whole time telling little kids what horrible sinners they were.

I would be interested to see the clip and to know what the context was where Wright was talking about Clinton's behavior.

Fitz, my guess is that mtgyau won't respond to the question I asked because that would require him to acknowledge that Wright was relating what a US amabassador (white at that) had said on Fox new when he made the "chickens are coming home to roost" remarks and that mtgyau himself wouldn't have left the church over that sort of thing. That sort of things wouldn't jibe to well with his mtgyau's too hastily reached conclusions.

Its my considerable experience that ANY reference to sex (and unfortunately to sin also) is rare talk on Sundays. Church's are much like the rest of our culture in that subjects like that are approached gingerly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enMWfQl_Qeg

If this was not the case, then those clips would not be seen as shocking & would not be so effective politically. If Wright were merely an academic Obama knew and made those references this would hardly be a scandal. It would just be Obamas far left friend.

Ah, Mtgyau,

You crack me up. :)

Fitz: I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that the great bulk of indignation has been directed at the "God damn America" and "US KKK A" remarks, not the Clinton remark. Those are certainly the lines Sean Hannity has been repeating ad nauseam all week. (Not being a mindreader of Hannity, I can only assume he somewhat approves of the Clinton-bashing portion of the tape.) On that score, I suspect a youtube mashup of preachers (of any stripe) saying the USA is "damned," for any number of reasons, would be of epic length and Wright would probably be nothing more than a bit player in such a mashup.

Steve V

Perhaps - But it would still be out of the norm & over the top for what most people

#1. Believe

#2. See in Church on Sundays.

No one has asked Catholics to disown the Catholic Church because the Pope served as a Youth for Nazis in his early years. AND the Nazis were truly a genocidal abomination. Although we find Wright's out-of-context comments unacceptable, there can be no doubt that he is a patriot who loves America, having served in the Marine Corps for six years and sacrificing his life to help the poor and dispossessed in his community. We should also be viewing You-Tube vidoes carrying his Christian, uplifting sermons. Jesus drove the Pharisees out of the Temple, and used intemperate language in reprimanding the villains in his society. But Christians understand and have learned from his language.

AKBY:

I see it differently. Not everyone is interested in other people's stories, particularly if that person will contradict one's view of the world. I don't know if H.R. had any interest in a white person's perspective. Perhaps all he wanted was to unload his grievances.

What more would you like to learn about my perspective?

Have the offensive views of a white racist ever been "contextualized?" ummm ... yes. As a matter of fact, simply look at the history of remarks of the individual you point to: Trent Lott.

Secondly, I truly don't recall Senator Obama ever saying that he hadn't heard Reverend Wright making incendiary remarks. He was speaking about the specific remarks brought up ad nauseum by the media. Nothing has been brought to light that brings the truth of his statements into question.

Sorry, but this is all so artificial. We all hear people say wacky things, and the normal human reaction is to say "Wow, that was kinda crazy" and go about our lives.

The idea that the ONLY reasonable way to respond is with moral outrage -- 'taking a stand', quitting the church, the school, the club, whatever -- is not in touch with reality. This happens about 1% of the time. The other 99% of us we just go on with our lives. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Much of the over-hyped commentary is spurred by a particular failing of commentators. They like to set things up as powerful moments of moral choice because it's fun to see themselves as protagonists in a big moral drama that they see clearly although others dont. But it's just rubbish. Whether or not to listen to someone else's rant is not a moral choice that matters much.

Obama is a normal person who lives in the real, normal world just like the rest of us. Bizarre, over the top opinions are part of life, and the kind, reasonable response in almost all cases is to let people be. I suppose there are people who feel it's their duty to argue with anyone who makes statements they think are wrong. Personally, I can't stand most of those people. Is that what we really want from our leaders? I dont think so.

Sorry, but this is all so artificial. We all hear people say wacky things, and the normal human reaction is to say "Wow, that was kinda crazy" and go about our lives.

The idea that the ONLY reasonable way to respond is with moral outrage -- 'taking a stand', quitting the church, the school, the club, whatever -- is not in touch with reality. This happens about 1% of the time. The other 99% of us we just go on with our lives. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Much of the over-hyped commentary is spurred by a particular failing of commentators. They like to set things up as powerful moments of moral choice because it's fun to see themselves as protagonists in a big moral drama that they see clearly although others dont. But it's just rubbish. Whether or not to listen to someone else's rant is not a moral choice that matters much.

Obama is a normal person who lives in the real, normal world just like the rest of us. Bizarre, over the top opinions are part of life, and the kind, reasonable response in almost all cases is to let people be. I suppose there are people who feel it's their duty to argue with anyone who makes statements they think are wrong. Personally, I can't stand most of those people. Is that what we really want from our leaders? I dont think so.

Obama chose this Black Liberation church and stuck with it for 20 years. Rev. Wright was always in his inner cicrle of friend and advisors.

Obviuosly, the ideology of the church (a mix of Marxism and James Cone teachings) held powerful appeal to him.

In Europe, Obama would have been a member of hard-core left party (there are quite a few viable post-Communist parties there). Here he had to become a Democrat.

But he is just a typical, hard-left member of a CBC, just like Rep. Rush who beat him in the primaries 2:1 in 8 years ago. These guys have no party of their own, so they have (D) by their names.

Obama chose this Black Liberation church and stuck with it for 20 years. Rev. Wright was always in his inner cicrle of friend and advisors.

Obviuosly, the ideology of the church (a mix of Marxism and James Cone teachings) held powerful appeal to him.

In Europe, Obama would have been a member of hard-core left party (there are quite a few viable post-Communist parties there). Here he had to become a Democrat.

But he is just a typical, hard-left member of a CBC, just like Rep. Rush who beat him in the primaries 2:1 in 8 years ago. These guys have no party of their own, so they have (D) by their names.

Someone asked earlier:

"Have the offensive views of a white racist ever been "contextualized?"

Why yes, they have. In fact, it happened in a speech by Senator Barack Obama last Tuesday. You might have heard about it. The one where he said how a lot of hard-working white people sometimes say and do things that may seem racist to others because they are frustrated that someone else is getting extra help while they or not.

Oh, you didn't hear about that? Huh, I'm surprised Fox News didn't play that part of the speech. Not that I blame you for not hearing about Obama contextualizing white racism, I mean reading the text of a speech THAT LONG? I guess thats the advantage of being a liberal. I have the time to do that while I'm on my latte-break.

Nathan -

"White people who sometimes say and do things that may seem racist" are not white racists. As Obama said, they're upset, but that doesn't make them racist.

Lester Maddox, George Wallace, and Hitler were white racists. Former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke is a white racist. Nobody "contextualizes" their views.

You don't have to be a white racist to see the double standard.

Alyosha, are you seriously comparing Jeremiah Wright with "Lester Maddox, George Wallace, David Duke and Hitler"? Those four were politicians whose spent their careers advocating policies that persecute or kill minorities. Jeremiah Wright is a pastor who has spent 99% on spiritual and community issues, and sometimes spouts off with racist and false comments. I don't see any comparison.

My point is that Obama's speech "contextualized" the more pedestrian kind of racism that is common in both the white and black communities, including Jeremiah Wright and many other average Americans who say and do racist things from time to time despite being overall decent people. And if you look into Wright's career, you'll see that there is plenty of good in with the bad. Obama was trying to be fair to both sides. But all you hear from conservatives is how he contextualized black racism. If you took the trouble to read the speech, you would see that he contextualized white racism, at least the non-genocidal type, as well.

So you gotta admit that its kinda humorous to see someone ask the question, "why does no one contextualize white racism" in a thread about a speech in which the speaker actually DID contextualize white racism.

I think Cost misses a central point of the speech. Cost says that Obama can't reject Trinity because of "who he [Obama] is". But that's not exactly what the speech said. Instead, Obama said he could not reject Wright *because of who Wright is.* That is, Obama explains that Wright is a man, who taught Obama a lot about community, love, brotherhood, and tolerance. Obama's message of unity isn't in contradiction to Wright's church; it was formed *out of* the message of Wright's church. Obama doesn't want to reject the church not because of who he is, but because there is a lot of value there -- not least, a quite conservative brand of self-help.

Somehow many white males have gotten the idea that the odds are stacked against them. On the bulletin board in my office someone has posted an article about the "angry white men" who are so overlooked and forgotten and downtrodden in this country, yet never complain about their sorry state. As a white male American, I have to say, why are my fellow white males so whiny??

Seriously, if before you were born you were allowed to choose the ethnic and gender makeup that would give you the best chance of worldly success, would you choose to be something other than a white male? I can't say I've ever driven through a black neighborhood and thought to myself "if only I were black, I could live here rather than the white suburban ghetto I am consigned to."

Conservatives claim that Obama is promoting a double standard, where black racism is acceptable while white racism is not. Well I think if there is a little bit of a double standard, thats ok because it all boils down to this: blacks were persecuted in this country for 300 years until the enormous strides of the last fifty. While these strides have helped blacks enormously, they don't even come close to leveling the playing field. So if their is a little bit of a rhetorical double standard, I think we white males can afford to let that slide, can't we?

Nathan -

I used pols as examples because I can't think of any white racist preachers. If they exist, and they came to the attention of the media, they'd be condemned outright, not "contextualized."

Oh, yes, Bob Jones U., which USED TO prohibit interracial dating but ceased to years ago. That's the "white racist" endorsement which has been cited. But it never taught racial hatred, and no candidate belonged to its church.

As for white males, neither Obama nor anyone else is talking about the grievances of the well-educated or well-to-do. They're talking about white males from lower echelons who can't get ahead because society has slanted the playing field toward blacks, women, and other "victims" of the white male "patriarchy."

A black banker's son has a better chance at college than a white janitor's son, and has for decades. Women now comprise nearly 60% of college students. White youths who never oppressed anyone aren't particularly encouraged to attend college and face longer odds of admission if they try.

If those youths are resentful, would you excuse racism and misogyny from them? Jews have been discriminated against for some 1,500 years and slaughtered for their race in far greater numbers than blacks. Would you excuse rabbis preaching hatred of past persecutors?

Please consider the possibility that your attitude is condescending. "We can't expect blacks to practice civility and tolerance. They were freed only 145 years ago and granted full civil rights only 44 years ago. Unlike Jews and other races and religions who got full civil rights then too, blacks can't help but wallow in the past. If their preachers egg on race hatred and even make stuff up, like the government creating AIDS to kill blacks, we can't expect any better. They're incapable of meeting the standards to which we hold everyone else."

That strikes me as a backhanded sort of racism.

Nathan -

"I used pols as examples because I can't think of any white racist preachers"

Well HAGEE did have a "SLAVE AUCTION" a few years back http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/03/lie-down-with-d.html

and there's also this http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

Sorry wrong link. Try this http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06c/cufi02.html