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Prostitution, Morality and the Law

12 Mar 2008 04:24 pm

Megan writes:

Revulsion against sex work isn't unique to female prostitutes. We're also repulsed by men who sell themselves to women, even though there's a general cultural assumption that a healthy man wants to have sex with nearly every female he sees. Something about sex work violates a deep belief--whether cultural or hard wired I don't know--that sex should only be traded for affection.

But if the only prostitutes were men selling themselves to women, no one would want to make it illegal. Supporting yourself that way might bring social opprobrium, like becoming a Morris dancer or eating live chickens--can't you find something better to do? But we wouldn't criminalize it in the name of protecting them from violence, criminals, or the untold horrors of multiple anonymous sexual encounters.

Um ... I would still want to make it illegal. I wouldn't want to make it illegal in the name of protecting gigolos from violence or unprotected sex, but then again, that's not fundamentally why I think female prostitution should be illegal either. I think the "protecting vulnerable women" case against legalizing sex work is a perfectly reasonable supplemental argument for keeping the ban in place, but ultimately the case for the ban stands or falls on one's view of morals legislation: First, whether it's appropriate for the law to restrain people from activities that are freely chosen but ultimately self-abusive and morally degrading, and second, whether prostitution, female and male alike, is sufficiently self-abusive and degrading to warrant legal sanction.

Pace Glenn Greenwald, I suspect that a great many people in the United States would answer yes to both questions. But based on the response to the Spitzer case (and the Vitter case before it), it appears that nearly the entire liberal (and libertarian, though that's to be expected) intelligentsia would answer no the first, and dismiss the second as an irrelevancy.

Hence the search, among those liberals leery about making sex work legal, for arguments that suggest that all prostitution is essentially non-consensual - that it's too exploitative by its very nature to count as something "consenting adults" should be allowed to do. But the evidence they muster tends to depend on a pre-existing moral bias against making prostitution legal. For instance:

... most women in prostitution, including those working for escort services, have been sexually abused as children, studies show. Incest sets young women up for prostitution — by letting them know what they’re worth and what’s expected of them. Other forces that channel women into escort prostitution are economic hardship and racism.

All true - but the obvious pro-legalization rejoinder is that being sexually abused as a child, or being born poor and black in inner-city Baltimore, pushes people toward all kinds of life choices that we don't choose to regulate. We don't forbid women who were molested by their fathers from dating older men who treat them unkindly and use them for sex, and we don't make it illegal for poor women to work unpleasant jobs cleaning houses or serving food at McDonalds. It only makes sense to ban prostitution if it's in the same moral/legal category as incest itself, rather than being akin to the kind of run-of-the-mill exploitative relationship that incest might incline a woman (or man) toward later in life. Which is to say, laws against prostitution ultimately depend on the assumption that the state has an interest in preventing serious forms of self-abuse, and that renting out your body to satisfy another person's sexual needs is a form of self-inflicted violence serious enough to merit legal sanction irrespective of why and how you decided to become a prostitute in the first place.

I should note that taking this position, as I do, doesn't preclude supporting changes in how we enforce prostitution laws - by targeting johns and pimps, say, and letting streetwalkers off with a slap on the wrist - any more than my belief that crack cocaine ought to be illegal means that I wholeheartedly support the war on drugs. The view that the law should be a moral teacher where certain forms of conduct are concerned leaves one with plenty of latitude for making prudential decisions about how and where that teaching should be carried out.

Comments (116)

While there is a kernel of truth that morality cannot be legislated, the law should to some extent uphold moral values; British common law, the foundation for American law, certainly had a strong moral component without pretending to be anything like Islamic Sharia law.

Prostitution is a serious matter that ought to be illegal, notwithstanding the bleatings of libertarians.

"The view that the law should be a moral teacher..." Ross says.

I think Bismark's often-quoted comparison of law-making with sausage-making is far more realistic.

Of course, it is liberals that are supposed to be stary-eyed idealists.

Wonder if anyone would trust their children's moral education to a legislature? Maybe we just found out?

That's all well and good, and smarter than anything Megan wrote over her past 20 posts, but this phrase strikes me ass odd: "laws against prostitution ultimately depend on the assumption that the state has an interest in preventing serious forms of self-abuse."

Leaving aside cases mental illness, why do conservatives believe that the state can know what activities are harmful to the individual committing those activities? Isn't there a presumption that the self-abuse is only self-abuse on a long term basis? After all, prostitutes are doing it for money, and if they do it voluntarily, then they are deriving a short term benefit from the act and transaction of money.

Mr. Douthat,

I'm of the Left (not liberal) "intelligentsia" (whatever that means), and _I_ think prostitution ought to be illegal. Very much so.

My belief that prostitution should be illegal stems from my Left-wing conviction that the current order of society is far from what it should be, and that we can and should strive to create a society modeled on a perfect ideal of virtue and justice. My abhorrence of prostitution is of a piece with my abhorrence, as a socialist, for the alienation and degradation inherent in all capitalist labor relations. Prostitution is simply the most extreme form of alienated labor, since the thing that it alienates is such an intimate and personal aspect of our natures. Other forms of capitalist exploitation can be condemned on the basis of their similarity to prostitution. And the idea that prostitutes and their clients "freely" consent to the transaction makes no more difference to me than the idea that a landlord and peasant, or a moneylender and his client, "freely" consent to those transactions. I think they're all immoral transactions, prostitution being the most so inasmuch as sexuality is even a more intimate aspect of our being than the work of our minds or our hands.

It's not an accident that Left wing governments- the anarchists in Spain, the communists in Viet Nam, the Fidelistas in Cuba, and the social democrats in Sweden today- have historically taken striven to outlaw prostitution. Nor that the imagery of prostitution is such a popular metaphor for exploitation and oppression, throughout the ages, for revolutionaries and social reformers.

Let others argue that 'the whores ye have always with you', theres nothing remotely Left about that idea to me.

...why do conservatives believe that the state can know what activities are harmful to the individual committing those activities?

Simply due to conservatives having the foundational view that such activities as prostitution are indeed harmful to those involved, however hard this comes to moral relativists who tend to reduce truths to opinion.

Peter~

So is it your conservative view that all activities that are harmful to those involved should be illegal or just "such activities as prostitution"? If the latter, how does one draw the line between, say, prostitution and smoking cigarettes?

For me, it's simply amusing to read something like this bit in Greenwald (who's not a total fool, but sometimes a hoot as a distillation of thoughtless Pauline-Kael-esque isolation from people who aren't fellow salon writers):

For all the people in comments and everywhere else waxing oh-so-indignantly over the moral evils of prostitution, do you also want to criminalize adult pornography? How can it possibly be the case that the former is outlawed while the latter is permissible?

Oh, Glenn, there are many of us who would happily ban ban ban ban ban and prosecute the living daylights out of purveyors of pornography -- which I'd even argue is the more important crime for the apparatus of the law to smash with a ruthless fist, in its more big-business forms. Prostitution we will always have with us, semi-tolerated. Mass-scale pornography as something other than dirty-postcards-for-sailors-under-the-table is a disaster and a half.

And this view is hardly rare among the "unwashed" masses -- though many people I've met who think this also just asusme "well, but you can't ban anything like that in America. I mean, it'd be nice, but it's just a crazy idea, cause porn's been legal from the beginning thanks to the First Amendment, which is HOLY."

If the latter, how does one draw the line between, say, prostitution and smoking cigarettes?

Well, not with some magic first principle, sadly enough. No amount of conjuration with John Rawls and a deck of cards will give you some rule -- it's a prudential matter, nowadays settled in part by things like legislatures and voters (when the courts settle something like this, it is generally for the bad). It's an approximation, where error will happen from time to time, such is life.

Steve, drawing the harmful line does require judgment. I can [barely] approve of my daughter who smokes but would have rather a problem with her involved in prostitution. Pardon this perhaps hopelessly Victorian view.

There are additional victims in the “victimless” crime of prostitution.

Women; Are easily exploited and can (indeed) exploit themselves – selling their bodies for money and thereby making themselves into sexual chattel.

Men: Are tempted and acclimated to the idea that sex is a commercial transaction. Along with pornography it heightens the idea that women are sexual instruments designed for men’s pleasure & not fellow human beings to be considered as equel partners in lifelong marriage.

The Public at Large: (ie. Society) – Under legal or widespread and winked at prostitution. Sex becomes a mere commodity. This is an assault on marriage and healthy sexuality. Sexual relations are recreated to become instruments of personal gain and not sacred indissoluble bonds.

Okay, so here's my devil's advocate style question for everybody.

If instead of having sex with "professional prostitute" let's pretend Spitzer had a "girlfriend" whom he only saw rarely and all they did was have sex. But in order to see her and have dirty kinky sex with her, she always maintained that Spitzer needed to bring her a "gift." So the first time Spitzer brings her a diamond necklace, the next time he buys her a plane ticket to Paris, and the next time he goes all out and buys her a Jaguar.

So what's the difference between the two situations ?
Ones against the law and Spitzer is forced to resign and the other is perfectly legal if of dubious morality.
One is explicit and the other implicit, but they amount to the same thing, don't they? In both situations Spitzer is still "paying" for sex, just in one is with cash and the other with "goods."

One more question:
If a professionally liscened massage therapist decideds to give her client a "happy ending" for a an added fee does she deserve to go to jail? Is she really a victim? She's allowed to massage every part of a man body, except one? Why?

Marquis,

I would ackowledge that there are some grey areas when it comes to pornography....where to draw the line, and so forth. I would be generally in favor of banning and prosecuting pornography as well. What exactly would you define as permissible vs. impermissible though...as in how many inches of hemline, etc. The Arabian Nights can get pretty salacious in places.

It seems to me that prostitution would be actually harder to get worked up about from a conservative viewpoint- after all, if _all_ non-marital sex acts are immoral with no exceptions, then why is prostitution (or adultery) necessarily any worse than simple fornication? I know not all conservatives share this view, but there are certainly some who do.

after all, if _all_ non-marital sex acts are immoral with no exceptions, then why is prostitution (or adultery) necessarily any worse than simple fornication?

Well, I think the idea that much fornication involves the corruption of the (otherwise) innocent, while prostitution at least involves someone probably already corrupted is not without precedent. In this day and age, I'd incline towards thinking that prostitution is indeed worse, in several ways -- most fornication at least is still based on affection or contemplates normalizing to marriage. Prostitution ("Pretty Woman" aside) has no such potential for transformation.

"I would ackowledge that there are some grey areas when it comes to pornography....where to draw the line, and so forth."

Why don't you just not watch pornography, instead of making a law forcing everybody else to your moral norms? Especially a law that in no way can be enforced without a huge invasion of privacy.

It does not appear that any women have participated in this thread. I recommend for your consideration Kerry Howley's post at Reason.

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/125429.html

I think its the commercialization of sexuality aspect of prostitution that makes it most vile. Yes both a out-side wedlock. One however opens itself to blunt exploitation of & by pimp, prostitute & John.


I agree largely with Marquis of Carabas about how pornography is worse in many ways. Its more main stream and tends to retard virtue more and set an agenda of sex as recreation.

Once you get certain supreme court precedents out of the way. Precedents that (by the way) are well out-side the history of free speech jurisprudence that always was capable of drawing a distinction between political speech & “purely prurient interests”.

Some of the more appealing approaches would be a specific domain name for pornographic websites (like XXX.com or PORN.com) along with regulations that would require age verification with a credit card.

This would do a lot to set a public tone and would be popular & hard to appose. Obviously things such as file sharing and the like will always present problems. But commercial pornography – the for profit side of the industry, would not be terribly difficult to regulate.

Why do conservatives get to be "prudential" and we liberals are always stuck being "relativists"?

peter: "I can [barely] approve of my daughter who smokes but would have rather a problem with her involved in prostitution."

If she uses condoms and other forms of common sense, prostitution will probably not lead to a drastic decline in her life expectancy. On the other hand, I've never seen a condom on a cigarette.

"Pardon this perhaps hopelessly Victorian view."

I think the problem with your view is that it's hopelessly irrational.

ross: "the state has an interest in preventing serious forms of self-abuse"

Tobacco has been mentioned as a good example of how inconsistently we express that "interest." Some other pretty obvious examples: alcohol and transfats. You can also die from getting too much sun. Being chronically sleep-deprived is also a form of "self-abuse." In fact, excess in almost any form becomes a "serious form[s] of self-abuse."

It's legal to smoke a million cigarettes, but it's not legal to commit one act of prostitution. Even though the former is obviously a much more "serious form[s] of self-abuse."

It's pretty amazing to contemplate that 'conservatives' want small government, while 'conservatives' also want government to be in the business of making sure we protect ourselves from "self-abuse."

The true purpose of prostitution laws is to disempower women. This is clearly explained in the article Steve mentioned.

Especially a law that in no way can be enforced without a huge invasion of privacy.

As Fitz notes, the interest here is in going after porn as big-business Not in finding every last bit on everyone's home computer and throwing them in jail. A fairly large dirty picture/video/website business will always endure. But you can simply harass such enough that they will always be at best quasi-legal and never get too large for fear of crackdown. The internet is harder, but not technically completely impossible -- there would not be this widespread conviction that "policing the internet" is impossible if not for the libertarian bent of most computer folks.

How can it be illegal to be paid for selling something it is legal to give away?

How can it be illegal to pay a 'prostitute' to have sex with you, but legal to hire an 'actress' to have sex with you, film the sex, and then sell and publicly exhibit copies of the film?

Re: But based on the response to the Spitzer case (and the Vitter case before it), it appears that nearly the entire liberal (and libertarian, though that's to be expected) intelligentsia would answer no the first, and dismiss the second as an irrelevancy.

The liberals and libertarians (for once) have tradition on their side. Apart from the occasional regime of a Savonarola or a Cromwell, who thought they could found a Republic of Perfect Virtue, prostitution was generally legal throughout the whole of Christian history, up until the late 19th century when its categorical ban was one of various progressive morals initiatives (along with Prohibition, etc.) The Church Fathers even produced (reluctant) arguments as to why the state should tolerate the Oldest Profession.

Re: by targeting johns and pimps, say, and letting streetwalkers off with a slap on the wrist

Pimps, yes. But I cannot fathom why a prostitute's customer should be punished any more harshly than the prostitute. They're both consenting adults (let's assume that OK) and the action is the same action for both: sex for pay. To suggest that the women should get off lightly is to suggest that adult women are somehow legally incompetent for their own actions. Sorry, but that BS of a high order. And if you want to take mitigating factors (childhood abuse etc.) into account for the woman, OK, but they should count for her customer too. Men who visit prostitutes often have serious issues too, ranging from childhood abuse to loneliness and rejection. Sauce for goose = sauce for the gander.

lessons:

all hookers come from Baltimore (the West Side mostly?). "morally degrading" in the eyes of Ross and his Revealed Truth = "morally degrading," period.

please God let us never put this charming, softspoken, articulate moralist in a position of great power. at least not while I'm alive.

now excuse me while I go masturbate 5 times to bukkake videos on the internet. which are, unaccountably, legal...

Well done, Ross.

"But you can simply harass such enough that they will always be at best quasi-legal and never get too large for fear of crackdown."

So we'll still have just as much porn, but it will be illegal and unregulated. Big business has actually been good for the people involved in the porn industry due to better pay and safety standards. Also big business has a huge incentive to not coerce women, due to threat of a law suit. They also are far less likely to break current child pornography laws.

What's the point of a ban, except as a reason to punish people?

I think Hector has it right -- the moral objection to prostitution is that it is the sale of something so intimately personal. Not only is such behavior harmful to the participants. It also cheapens and coarsens the community, its members, and their relationships -- both because it countenances their trafficking in the most intimate aspects of their personality as if it were just another commodity and because it views the act by which its members are generated as just one more random and interest driven transaction. If sex is a commodity, so too are people.

As for the Davids of the world -- who would not sanction any moral principle unless every conceivable application of that principle consistently followed -- what can you say? Killing's not a good thing, but in some instances it is. Cannibalism is certainly not good; but organ donation is a sort of cannibalism that might just be noble. Life and moral issues are just a whole lot more complicated than legalistic logic chopping.

Ross,
Your argument, while internally consistent, entails implications troubling enough to derail it. The morals case seems predicated on assumptions that arguably should also render illegal any kind of consensual sex that is engaged in “too casually”—too often, with too many partners, for the wrong motives, and so forth, since these are often described as degrading. How would you identify the presence of objective self-harm in these instances (i.e., behavior sufficient to trigger legal intervention), as distinguished from the poor decision-making about sex and relationships that most people make in the course of time? If you’re inclined to agree that these noncommercial choices can cause serious self-harm but are too impractical to regulate, I would ask whether that’s really your only objection to legal involvement. Isn’t there a dignity in the autonomy lost when the state attempts to restrict such decisions, even though some of them presumably cause serious self-harm? If moral objections matter enough here independently to cause you to oppose regulation of consensual noncommercial sex, what’s the remaining basis for your opposition to transactions that carry the additional factor of containing a commercial element?

Ross,
Your well-expressed argument entails implications troubling enough to derail it. It seems predicated on assumptions that arguably should also render illegal any kind of consensual sex that is engaged in “too casually”—too often, with too many partners, for the wrong motives, and so forth. How would you identify the presence of objective self-harm (i.e., behavior sufficient to trigger legal intervention), as distinguished from the poor decision-making about sex and relationships that most people make in the course of time? If you’re inclined to answer that these noncommercial choices can cause serious self-harm but are too impractical to regulate, I would ask whether that’s really your only objection to legal involvement. Isn’t there a crucial autonomy lost when the state attempts to restrict such decisions, even though some of them presumably cause serious self-harm? If so, what’s the remaining basis for your opposition to transactions that carry the additional factor of containing a commercial element?

Bleh. The belief that people need to be protected from their own decisions is nanny-statism at it's finest.

"Steve, drawing the harmful line does require judgment. I can [barely] approve of my daughter who smokes but would have rather a problem with her involved in prostitution. Pardon this perhaps hopelessly Victorian view. Posted by Peter Leavitt"

I'm not sure we can pardon it. The problem here is that Ross' argument falls apart on such issues. He claims that self-harm, and of course that he and his are good judges of what this involves. But when you actually get down to the specifics, it turns out that self-harm isn't really the criteria at all, and it's merely a sort of empty, culture-bound measure of "what I think is icky" that's making the distinctions, not any sort of consistent moral principle.

Ross, your ability to prioritize is really terrible. As it stands, prostitutes are regularly raped by pimps, by customers, and (as Matt has mentioned in several posts) cops who coerce unpaid "business" from them. There is a substantial debate about whether legalization or criminalization would do more to deal with those abuses. But to think that the morally degrading nature of the work is the real issue manifests what looks quite a bit like indifference to that reality. It seems like you're saying "who cares what happens to prostitutes so long as we make a symbolic statement (oh, well, I guess it's an interesting side-issue--a supplementary consideration if you're really concerned about the details).

JonF,

You're right to point out that abolishing prostitution was traditionally a cause of the Left (and yes I would consider both Cromwell and Savonarola, in light of the latter's opposition to the Pope, the nobles and the merchant classes, as of the Left). I believe, as one of the Left, that the power of the state can and should be used to move society _in the direction of_ the Republic of Perfect Virtue, though of course we can't get there. Suppressing prostitution is an important first step on the way to get there.

Marquis and Fitz,

Of course I agree with you on the reasons why prostitution is worse than other forms of sexual immorality. But then I don't share your conservative condemnation of _all_ non-marital sex acts. I agree that the presence or absence of things like love, affection and commitment matter. That's why I value these things more than the stamp of marriage (as Yeats said in that quotation from the other thread.)

It's true that some conservative thinkers have defended prostitution as a safety valve to reduce the incidence of fornication in society. In this they took a lead from St. Augustine (who, great man that he was, was wrong about this) who said "Get rid of prostitution and the world will drown in lust." This is one of the things that reminds me why I'm not a conservative.

Jukeboxgrad,

The objection to prostitution is that it's bad for the _spiritual_ welfare of the participants as well as society. That it also tends to be bad for their _physical_ welfare is simply icing on the cake.

Smoking on the contrary is only bad for one's _physical_ welfare.

And come on, selling condoms as the answer to ever sex-related issue is such a tiresome manifestation of our society's demand to find a technological solution to everything. One would think that the manifest economic, environmental and social crises of the late 20th-early 21st century would indicate that technology alone can't solve what are in large part _moral_ problems. Changing men's hearts is a bit harder than inventing a new technology, but in the long run it is also more rewarding.

"But when you actually get down to the specifics, it turns out that self-harm isn't really the criteria at all, and it's merely a sort of empty, culture-bound measure of "what I think is icky" that's making the distinctions, not any sort of consistent moral principle."

Can't have that sense of what's "icky" now, can we? Than again, I'm not sure what's wrong with incestuous relations between an adult child and his or her parent -- why not let those consenting adults have at it? -- other than that incest is for some strange reason ... icky. And this ickiness is so culture-bound that just about every culture is bound by the incest taboo.

And maybe Bad can explain what's harmful or bad about humans eating each other, and do so in a way that rises to the level of ickiness that certain culture-bounds benighted schmucks still feel.

hector: "The objection to prostitution is that it's bad for the _spiritual_ welfare of the participants as well as society."

Fair enough. Good point, and thanks for making it. Trouble is, it's hard for me to imagine a more basic rule than this, with regard to the proper role of government: it has no business concerning itself with spiritual matters.

I'm all for all sorts of elements in society (e.g., artists, philosophers, clergy, therapists et al) concerning themselves with spiritual matters. But government doesn't belong there. In my opinion it's highly un-conservative and un-American to picture our government as having a Department of Spiritual Welfare. Someone please explain how this is not fundamentally indistinguishable from the concept of sharia law.

Many Americans think that worshipping someone/something other than Jesus is "bad for the _spiritual_ welfare of the participants." With God's help, maybe they can get the government to do something about that.

"One would think that the manifest economic, environmental and social crises of the late 20th-early 21st century would indicate that technology alone can't solve what are in large part _moral_ problems."

One would think that the manifest economic, environmental and social crises of the late 20th-early 21st century would indicate that our _moral_ problems are not going to be solved by creating a nanny state.

It's funny how 'conservatives' promote the idea that government should be as small and weak as possible, because it's fundamentally incapable of being competent at anything. And folks should be free of government interference, and left to their own devices (especially when it comes to making a buck). But then we find out that the government should be in the business of managing our 'spiritual welfare.' As if there's some magical reason to think that government is well-suited to handle that task. Sorry, but that doesn't add up.

"Changing men's hearts is a bit harder than inventing a new technology"

Changing men's hearts is also a bit harder than making more laws, more police, and more prisons (although we lead the world in that area, and some folks are making lots of money). The government should not be in the business of "changing men's hearts."

"t's hard for me to imagine a more basic rule than this, with regard to the proper role of government: it has no business concerning itself with spiritual matters."

I suggest starting your remedial education with the Ethics and the Politics.

"I suggest starting your remedial education with the Ethics and the Politics."

Since you're inclined to be inscrutable, you might as well go all the way and just refer me to the Bible. I've noticed that conversations like this often end up there, and you seem to be headed in that direction.

I expect my government to be ethical, but I also expect it to not concern itself with my 'spiritual welfare.' My physical health is a matter for me and my doctor, and my spiritual health is a matter for me and my spiritual advisor.

Speaking of 'spiritual welfare,' isn't it about time we amended the constitution to ban divorce? While we're at it, we should criminalize adultery.

Jukeboxgrad, I think anachronism may be referring you to Aristotle's Ethics and Politics. I would also point out that adultery is criminal in many states.

I would also ask commenters who think that the state can't legislate solely on the basis of morality, self-harm, or what the community thinks is icky how they feel about the state banning incest or bestiality. For instance, here's a story from a recent Wisconsin case:

On October 11, 2006, officer Adam Poskozim was assisting Wisconsin Department of Corrections probation agents with home visits at the Transitional Living Program housing in Superior. Hathaway, a resident of the facility, arrived and Poskozim observed that Hathaway was covered in hair and blood. Hathaway moved his hand into his pocket and Poskozim saw that Hathaway had a knife. Poskozim approached Hathaway to take the knife from him and, because Hathaway’s pants were loose, observed that his underpants were
also bloody. Poskozim was concerned that Hathaway was injured or that a violent crime, such as a sexual assault, had taken place. Poskozim also was aware that Hathaway had been suspected of bestiality in the past. Because having contact with animals was a probation violation [Hathaway had previously shot a horse so he could have sex with it], the probation agents requested that Poskozim take Hathaway into custody. Poskozim
transported Hathaway to the county jail where the probation agents questioned Hathaway in an interview room... Poskozim then asked Hathaway what happened and Hathaway stated he had sex with a dead deer he found by the side of the road. Hathaway was charged with committing an act of sexual gratification with an animal...

Now, maybe Mr. Hathaway feels that he's doing no harm to himself by having sex with roadkill deer - that, in fact, the state's harming him by punishing him for this completely victimless crime. But I assume that we would all agree that he's engaged in activity that's incredibly degrading, dehumanizing, and harmful to himself, even if the exact rationale for thinking so may not be entirely clear.

Mr. Jukeboxgrad,

I'm not a conservative, and I'm not particularly given to rhapsodizing over the wonders of the Anglo-American 'experiment', so saying that something is un-conservative or un-American has little impact on me. Please read a bit of Plato's Republic. Then get back to me.

I think that seeking to change men's hearts is very eminently the job of the state, and probably its most important role. Obviously there is a _degree_ to which the state should do this and it shouldn't seek to regulate every decision that we make, but the purpose of the state is ultimately to encourage its inhabitants to be good people.

If you think that doing something as elementary as outlawing prostitution is a step on the road to Shariah law, then it's not your morality I have a problem with so much as your common sense.

How can it be anything OTHER than a step on the road to Shariah law? Telling men and women under what conditions they're allowed to have sex is, uh, the whole principle at stake. We don't oppose Shariah because it tells us to stone whores to death (although that is also not a good thing); we oppose Shariah because it eviscerates the very idea of human freedom. If your common sense completely defies logic, then maybe it's not liberals who need to rethink.

This entire conversation borders on the lunatic. A bunch of men (no doubt all white) sitting around discussing how we should protect the "dignity" of women. And repeated directions for people to read the Republic, as if there is nothing at all troubling about the kind of totalitarianism Plato advocated (or maybe didn't, but conservatives aren't exactly famous for their detection-of-irony or reading-books powers) therein.

Thanks but no thanks, guys. I'll go right ahead and let women decide what degrades them on their own.

I think the "protecting vulnerable women" case against legalizing sex work is a perfectly reasonable supplemental argument for keeping the ban in place, but ultimately the case for the ban stands or falls on one's view of morals legislation: First, whether it's appropriate for the law to restrain people from activities that are freely chosen but ultimately self-abusive and morally degrading, and second, whether prostitution, female and male alike, is sufficiently self-abusive and degrading to warrant legal sanction.

Funny thing, though, is that the morals case always seems to fail in the public square in the absence of the the "supplemental" protection against exploitation case. Incest and polygamy, like prostitution, are probably going to be exploitative nine times out of ten even among adults. Self-abuse like porn, cigs, booze, violent media, etc just never seems to cut it.

Prostitution wasn't originally banned to protect vulnerable women--but if it weren't for that aspect of the situation, it would probably have been legalized by now. What Ross calls "supplemental" seems to now be necessary.

"I think Hector has it right -- the moral objection to prostitution is that it is the sale of something so intimately personal. Not only is such behavior harmful to the participants. It also cheapens and coarsens the community, its members, and their relationships -- both because it countenances their trafficking in the most intimate aspects of their personality as if it were just another commodity and because it views the act by which its members are generated as just one more random and interest driven transaction. If sex is a commodity, so too are people."

By this standard, whole categories of mainstream advertising should be rendered illegal.

Dairy State Dad,

I'm a socialist in politics and my stance on advertising is largely drawn from Paul Sweezy in 'Monopoly Capital'. So yes, I think most advertising is a demonstration of the sickness of late-capitalist society, trying to tempt people into spending money on things they don't need, and generally appealing to lust, pride and greed to do so. So if you want to ban most advertising, you won't get much argument from me.

Ryan,

I'm not white, for what it's worth, and my skin color is probably darker than Obama's. Nor am I a conservative. But don't let that stop your silly generalizations.

I oppose Shariah first and foremost, of course, because it's the product of an epileptic pedophile camel driver. That aside, because it's cruel, exploitative, patriarchal. And yes, because it eviscerates freedom. But freedom, like salt, is something that's necessary in a certain quantity but toxic at higher levels.

I am on the Left because I believe that society can and should be reconfigured in the direction of a perfect ideal of virtue. That's pretty much seems like the definition of the Left to me. Abolishing prostitution is one of many steps to get there.

Your conflation of, say, Cromwell's England, Savonarola's Venice, Castro's Cuba, and Shariah law because they all demanded conformity to an ideal of virtue is truly sophomoric. It's of a piece with the Soviet writers who said that Nazi Germany was indistinguishable from the United States because they were both capitalist states.

Often those who champion things like legalized prostitution claim to be “libertarians”. Often they are not really libertarians. Rather they are libertines. It’s a sad state of affairs when you have to preface your libertarian with "classical" or "natural law".

These types of libertarians understand not only that there is a human nature, but they also properly understand that nature. As such they realize that limited government cannot thrive when social disharmony is created by allowing (among other things) prostitution.

The state apparatus that needs to regulate, test and police a more widespread and socially acceptable prostitution industry along with the vice and family breakdown inherent in libertinism is anything but limited government.

This phenomena appears anywhere in the western world were prostitution is legalized. This is the case from Nevada brothels to Amsterdam red light districts. It is highly regulated all the way to permissible advertising statutes and the like. Indeed it’s often the case that legalizing prostitution comes with this as its winning argument. "By legalizing it we will cut down on disease, have mandatory testing and end the exploitation of women by pimps and the abuse by Johns"

One could make the call for a legalized (or decriminalized) prostitution unregulated in any way & the old “let the chips fall were they may”. In reality it seems that our societies are not that crass. Even sexual libertine societies tend toward its regulation.

The better reason for making it illegal is the promotion of virtue (i.e – family formation) Indeed this is the classic and vindicated rational for most morals legislation. That such practices retard sexual norms and lead to family breakdown. Family (as the first unit of society) prevents tyranny and provides a natural bulk ward against the state. The opposite is also the case, government grows larger and more intrusive as the family breaks down.. (From family courts to social workers to welfare policy)

Consumatopia

"Prostitution wasn't originally banned to protect vulnerable women--but if it weren't for that aspect of the situation, it would probably have been legalized by now. What Ross calls "supplemental" seems to now be necessary."

If I understand you properly then I agree in part. However (I would expand on your thesis) and a say those "supplemental" effects of prostitution come to the fore only because the moral case about healthy/moral human sexuality is so radically sidelined in today’s debate.

"Incest and polygamy, like prostitution, are probably going to be exploitative nine times out of ten even among adults."

I would love to hear Consumatopia's reading of Lolita or Oedipus Rex. To the extent that these works of art have any resonance at all, that has to do with how they resonate with a deep moral sense of what it means to be human, and horror at transgressions into what is inhuman, that goes far beyond the self-help language of exploitation.

Is the horror of Oedipus Rex that the adult incest was somehow exploitative, or is the tragedy not really a tragedy at all? Is Lolita no more than an after school special morality play about men-in-cars-offering-candy and the harmfulness of their exploitative ways? Or is it an exploration of the imminent extinction of romantic love and even art in a world where there are no taboos (ie, where adultery is replaced as the subject of the novel by incest and pedophilia because only clearly exploitative relationships like incest with a child arouse our outrage and not, as in those silly old novels and plays, adultery) and the only "artists" are pornographers like Clare Quilty?

To the extent that these works of art have any resonance at all, that has to do with how they resonate with a deep moral sense of what it means to be human, and horror at transgressions into what is inhuman, that goes far beyond the self-help language of exploitation.

You don't get to decide what it means for others to be human. The people in question aren't characters in our novel--they don't belong to us. Unless they are in a situation in which they can't decide for themselves--and some things like incest are so messed up that wanting to do them is evidence that you can't be trusted to defend your own interest. Regardless, some language of vulnerability and exploitation is now necessary to ban sexual practices. And thank God that it is--the last thing we need is for the law to start evaluating me on aesthetic/dramatic grounds.

Hector: Apologies for calling you conservative. What you are not, and this applies to Cromwell, Savonarola, Cuba, and the imams, is a liberal. It may be sophomoric to conflate them all simply because they "demanded conformity to an ideal of virtue", but I consider them all the enemy. Your ideals are not my ideals and I am a liberal precisely because I think it's abominable for you claim the law should make them so.

Apologies further for the "white" assumption. You are, I note, still a man who wants to tell women under what circumstances they are allowed to have sex with consenting partners. That sounds an awful lot like patriarchy to me.

Also, while it's off-topic, I think that insofar as the Soviets were morally opposed to capitalism as a system, Nazi Germany and the United States were probably equally distateful. If two evil people are in a room and one commits genocide, they're still both evil. (I am, for the record, not an anti-capitalist.)

A few points:

How can it be illegal to be paid for selling something it is legal to give away?

This is a fairly compelling argument against the banning of political bribery, don't you think?

You are, I note, still a man who wants to tell women under what circumstances they are allowed to have sex with consenting partners. That sounds an awful lot like patriarchy to me.

I think Hector (and I) are also interested in telling men under what circumstances they are allowed to have sex with consenting partners (at least if someone's paying). So it's a peculiarly equal-treatment patriarchy, no? Unless you assume that prostitution is inherently and only practiced by women. It is primarily so, but the gender ratios aren't much worse (I guess, admittedly) than those in, say mechanical engineering. Yet I wouldn't consider a ban on mechanical engineering bad primarily because it would be an instance of dread matriarchy.

Except that it's not the slightest bit an equal treatment ban, unless you completely abstract from every other social factor surrounding it. There are reasons for the gender discrepancy you cite and they aren't solely limited to "men like sex more than women". A ban on prostitution is a ban that, however you might like to dress it up in logic, is implicitly directed at the banning of women's sexuality.

This is, of course, true of virtually all socially conservative positions on sex, from prostitution to abortion to maternity leave in the workplace.

Why not abstract completely from every social factor? It seems to me (hi, John Rawls) that this is the very nonsensical method that lies at the heart of liberalism and libertine libertarianism.

If you want to talk about actual people embedded in actual reality, then I wouldn't really have that much interest in talking to your lot about sexual matters, anyway. If you didn't have considerable power, I wouldn't really consider your arguments things to even bother looking at, to be honest.

Then at least we're on the same page. You think my position is nonsensical; I think yours is medieval, fascist, and mustache-twistingly cruel. Isn't this productive?

I don't think yours is "nonsenical" -- I just think it's wrong and wicked, but sometimes (though not always) consistent.

Medieval I'll sort of grant -- at least some of the principles thereof, if not much of the practice. Fascist? No, not if you want to use the word to mean much of anything specific, rather than "this, I DISLIKE". "Mustache-twistingly cruel?" That's a more disciplined use of words. I don't have a mustache, myself, and I generally think the modern hedonism saultes cruelty as yet another freedom that some like to indulge in, and other should forebear from disapproving.

I think we agree on fascist, but there just isn't another word that means "diametrically opposed to freedom" with the same kind of moral opprobrium. But let's agree on wrong and wicked. That works for both of us.

I have to object to this idea of "morals legislation", which implies that other legislation has no moral basis. All laws reflect a moral view. The notion that murder is wrong is a purely moral position.

A simple search on the internet will prove that many people love to be humiliated, hurt, and degraded. I met a woman a few years age who introduced me to this. She wanted to be hit and forced to do humiliating things. Should this be considered domestic abuse? I met many more people than I ever dreamed involved in this behavior. Their lifestyle was not my cup of tea but I do not condemn them for it.

The thing that surprised me the most is that they did not meet the stereotypical abused child scenario. The ones I met came from upper-middle class families and were college educated. One of the woman’s friends from above sought out gang members to fulfil her 'whore' fantasies, they would sell her from time to time.

Should they be locked away for subjecting themselves to their strange desires? How would that improve society?

I'm not opposed to ALL freedoms, though, and you're probably not in favor of all of them, so that's a bit facile, don't you think?

Heck, there's probably (unless you are a quite consistent libertarian) SOME freedom, of a positive sort, that you don't favor and I do.

A ban on prostitution is a ban that, however you might like to dress it up in logic, is implicitly directed at the banning of women's sexuality.


So you are saying that womens sexuality is expressed in the selling of their bodies to men? That banning it somehow represses women?

Even by liberal male standards, that is an exceptionally nonsensical.

You are, I note, still a man who wants to tell women under what circumstances they are allowed to have sex with consenting partners. That sounds an awful lot like patriarchy to me.


Ryan, please don't play with words you don't understand. That would be all of them with more than three letters.


What you REALLY are objecting to is that he is telling YOU under what circumstances you are allowed to have sex with consenting partners. Your phony concern for women is nauseating.

Marquis:

That's probable, and I don't think you yourself are a tyrant (found my word, I believe); I just think this particular position is tyrannical. You may find my position on something (taxes? I don't know) equally tyrannical.

Oh, good name, by the way. Forgot to mention that before. Gaiman is one of my heroes.


Jon:

It certainly would seem that some women express their sexuality that way, now wouldn't it? And that's rather beside the point. Prostitution bans are largely based around the fact that there is some kind of purity we need to protect or some debasement to fight. When women choose to employ their sexuality in this fashion and are told they can't because their virtue must be defended, then yeah, we're talking about repressing. Or at least oppressing.

Not to mention that women sell their bodies to men all the time. There are secretaries in my office who have contracted their hands out to male executives, there are female construction workers who have contracted their arms out to male foremen, and so on. They may not be expressing their sexuality this way (although, if they are, why should we care?), but your problem isn't with women selling their bodies; it's with women selling their vaginas.

"The view that the law should be a moral teacher where certain forms of conduct are concerned leaves one with plenty of latitude for making prudential decisions about how and where that teaching should be carried out." While I understand Douthat's position here, I disagree with it in that this view entails trusting those in power to be discerning about how they use and apply that power - and we all know how that has worked out regarding torture and the innumerable other abuses that have occurred in the past few years. Power and authority are almost invariably abused, and if you make it legal to waste limited law enforcement resources (and tax dollars) to fight the "drug war" or combat prostitution, they will do just that - and continue to pack our prisons with prisoners who really shouldn't be in jail (but thus end up in a vicious cycle that continually send them back to jail.)

It's immoral because it's morally degrading because it's immoral because it's morally degrading. Glad we cleared that up!

Where you guys popular in high school?

Oh, good name, by the way. Forgot to mention that before. Gaiman is one of my heroes.

I like some of his work a lot (parts of Sandman), am ambivalent about some, think some is (heck, he'd admit it) lightweight or overly clever fluff. But the name is independent Gaiman -- I got it from "Puss in Boots", where he did.

Go away, you Christian moralists. Do I own (and control) my body or does the state? Am I allowed to decide how to spend my money on voluntary transactions or is the state?

If you ban my porn, can I ban your busybody church?

Have any of you guys ever lived in a place where prostitution is more than just a debate topic for table jousting over coffee? I worked for three years in a developing country where prostitution was legal, widely practiced, and socially accepted by all classes of people. It wasn't a pretty situation, to say the least. The female expatriates I knew were almost without exception opposed to prostitution, as were _most_ of the male ones as well. These were almost entirely very liberal Democrats, so I don't think one's stance on the prostitution question is a liberal vs. conservative one. Rather it comes down to whether you value real people and real human goods, or some abstract ideal of freedom.

Freedom, like salt, is necessary in certain quantity and toxic in higher levels. I think there will come a day when we look back and realize that the post-Enlightenment West did as much cumulative damage in the name of freedom as the Marxists did in the name of equality.

If you ban my porn, can I ban your busybody church?

Well, under the US constitution and social order, there's more chance of banning porn that of banning my church. In general? Sure, plenty of dictators have tried both, or just one. Warning, though -- I might meekly go the catacombs, but I'm not a nice or temperamentally Christian man (my few virtues are work, not habit) so I might well try to kill you.

Go away, you Christian moralists. Do I own (and control) my body or does the state? Am I allowed to decide how to spend my money on voluntary transactions or is the state?

Is this a trick question? I'd say as to question 1: well, in fact, neither the state nor you "own" your body, precisely, and neither one totally controls it. Question number two just seems like a joke. The state decides how you spend your money on an extraordinary range of things, from sales tax to drugs to medical care to making you pay the minimum wage for various kinds of work. I mean, maybe it shouldn't be that way, and I have sympathies for some libertarian arguments here, but really, in point of practice, the state controls how you spend money in voluntary transactions in a myriad of ways that are supported by the vast majority of the populace and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Perhaps you live in some other planet, where this isn't so?

I think there will come a day when we look back and realize that the post-Enlightenment West did as much cumulative damage in the name of freedom as the Marxists did in the name of equality.

Waaaaaaaall... I do think the body counts are not quite in the same ballpark.

The problem with the argument from morality in this case is that by banning prostitution we're just shifting the costs, i.e. choosing one set of moral harms over another.

Banning prositution is an effective way of reducing participation in sex work from both sides and thus limiting the kind of debasement Douthat discusses. No doubt about that.

But we also know that banning prostitution doesn't stop it. It only limits it. It also means that no one in the sex trade can call the police when something goes wrong. That means, at best, can only depend on a para-police organization (read: organized crime) that, to say the least, does not have the same ethical obligations as the state police.

With a ban, you're certainly limiting the self-debasement of potential sex workers and clients by raising costs of participation. But you're also guaranteeing that a number of sex workers and clients are beaten, exploited and stolen from without recourse to the protection of the state.

So, Ross, the question your argument has to answer is this: how many beatings is limited self-debasement worth? If you don't have an answer you don't have an argument.

Marquis, charmed. Typical of your kind: do as I say or I'll kill you. You must be the modern day Moses. I know how to use a gun, too. You can try to ban porn, you'll find you are outnumbered. Qui t'a permis de garder ta tête? A la guillotine avec toi, sale aristocrate!

I'm just saying -- if you try to ban a man's church, I think it's sort of reasonable if he tries to shoot you. Do you really disagree?

I think the number of Americans who would vote to ban porn (at least to some extent) is probably larger by a good bit than the number who would agree to ban the Catholic Church. Perhaps I am wrong and liberals have become totalitarian monsters in recent times?

I should note that I wouldn't shoot YOU for wanting to ban my church. It's a wicked thing to want, and I might consider you a thug and a fool, but I wouldn't shoot you.

I just meant if somehow (unlikely) you made such a law and were in the act of enforcing it (rounding up Catholics at their house churches to be hauled off to court), I think it'd be at least arguable that I have a pretty good argument for shooting you.

What's more, I think that even most people who are pretty strongly against banning porn would agree that it's much much much much more reasonable to shoot someone for banning your church than it is to shoot someone for banning porn.

This suggests that the comparison you made, unless perhaps your God is your all-Asian gangbang, is somewhat out of line and stupid.

Accuse others of what you do yourself and no one will notice. Is that your message, milord?

I am trying to make the point that even most people who don't favor banning porn acknowledge that banning a church and banning porn lie in different parts of the spectrum of unpleasant behaviors. Do you really disagree with that?

If so, I think you show that libertarianism can end in a kind of insanity, where all freedoms are imagined to be equivalent -- the right not to be persecuted for heresy, or the right to a political voice, being no more or less important, say, than the right to sell dirty DVDs. This is a degradation of the wrong but in some ways high-minded concepts J S Mill and others came up with, the fall from Voltaire to Larry Flynt.

If the law has an interest in preventing self-abuse, then the law is an ass.

Law is a form of violence which is meant to take the place of personal retribution, i.e., in a civilized society the individual surrenders the right of revenge to the court. The court then can visit a punishment, if it sees fit, on the wrongdoer.

To threaten violence (punishment) against someone for doing violence to herself is ludicrous, just like the drug laws that attempt to save drug users from the harmful effects of drugs by harming them even more (depriving them of freedom, etc). Hence Mr. Douthat does not, understandably, support punishing prostitutes, but rather their pimps and johns. Which means he sees prostitution not as "self-abuse" but as abuse of prostitutes by their exploiters. A problem which does not exist (to any great extent) where prostitution is legal and regulated.

Seeing as prostitution (and drugs) can never be really wiped out short of adopting authoritarian measures, does it not make more sense to enact laws which cause less harm to the victims? Is it not more desirable to avoid real, measurable harm (poverty, disease, violence) than abstract harm (a change in prevailing attitudes towards sex which, in any case, cannot be effectively legislated against).

"I am trying to make the point that even most people who don't favor banning porn acknowledge that banning a church and banning porn lie in different parts of the spectrum of unpleasant behaviors. Do you really disagree with that?"

Depends on the church. And the porn.

The similarities between church and porn are kind of interesting, actually. Both make people feel good, and both are, strangely enough, boring at the same time.

"protecting vulnerable women"

The only way to do that is to make it legal. As it stands now prostitutes are at the mercy of the pimps and the police.

tray: "anachronism may be referring you to Aristotle's Ethics and Politics"

Thanks for pointing that out. I suppose you're right. It's usually referenced the way you did, and not the way he did ("the Ethics and the Politics"). That threw me off, but I should have been able to figure it out. Nevertheless, I still don't get his point (assuming he had one).

"adultery is criminal in many states"

I think it's only a few states, not "many," and I think the laws are enforced rarely or never. If you can show otherwise, that would interest me. What's more important is that I don't hear anyone calling for those laws to get stronger.

The folks who make a very big fuss about things like gay marriage, abortion, prostitution, and drugs seem to mostly make no fuss at all about adultery and divorce. That looks like hypocrisy to me, and it's summed up well in this bumper sticker: '4 out of 5 Baptist Divorcees want Gays to stop undermining the sanctity of Marriage.'

"how [do you] feel about the state banning incest or bestiality"

By "incest," I assume you mean adult incest. I can see an argument for the state banning adult incest, but I think the argument is weak.

It might be interesting to note that there is somewhat of a gray zone, between clear incest and clear non-incest. You probably know that Rudy married his first cousin. I personally know someone who married her father's brother. She is currently a grandmother, and both generations of her offspring are happy and healthy.

In my opinion, bestiality is a form of cruelty to animals, and I think it's reasonable for the state to enforce humane treatment of animals.

"commenters who think that the state can't legislate solely on the basis of morality, self-harm, or what the community thinks is icky"

I'm not necessarily saying this should never happen (although I lean in that direction). I'm saying there's lots of room for more consistency and less hypocrisy.

"he's engaged in activity that's incredibly degrading, dehumanizing, and harmful to himself"

That's his business, not mine or yours. And I don't see any great moral difference between screwing the dead animal as compared with eating it. Likewise, I don't see any great moral difference between pleasuring myself with my hand, a device I bought from a catalog, or a hunk of meat I got from the butcher.

I think Hathaway's story is disturbing for other reasons, like the fact that he didn't see any need to not be walking around carrying a knife while covered with hair and blood.

hector: "If you think that doing something as elementary as outlawing prostitution is a step on the road to Shariah law, then it's not your morality I have a problem with so much as your common sense."

In my opinion, one man's "common sense" is another man's dangerous fundamentalism. I wish you would humor me and take a stab at explaining why "outlawing prostitution is [not] a step on the road to Shariah law." Referring me to Plato is not my idea of an explanation.

"most advertising is a demonstration of the sickness of late-capitalist society"

FWIW, I generally agree. But I very much disagree with the contemplated remedy (banning it).

"I am on the Left because I believe that society can and should be reconfigured in the direction of a perfect ideal of virtue."

In my opinion, people like you give the Left a bad name, and have a lot in common with many people on the Right. This Leftist thinks that lots of institutions (outside of government) should, can and do concern themselves with moving society "in the direction of a perfect ideal of virtue." I just think bad things happen when the government gets into the business of deciding whether or not my personal life fits someone else's concept of "virtue."

fitz: "The better reason for making it illegal is the promotion of virtue (i.e – family formation)"

The idea that making prostitution illegal will promote family formation is as logical as the idea that prohibition will make people stop drinking. Or the idea that a 'war on drugs' will get people to stop taking drugs.

"The state apparatus that needs to regulate, test and police a more widespread and socially acceptable prostitution industry along with the vice and family breakdown inherent in libertinism is anything but limited government."

The state apparatus that needs to conduct our 'war on drugs' is anything but limited government. In fact, it's led to 1% of adults in jail, and the largest prison apparatus in the world, both in absolute terms and per capita.

marquis: "This is a fairly compelling argument against the banning of political bribery, don't you think?"

No, because the politician is giving something that isn't his. That's why he's not allowed to trade it for money. He represents someone else (his constituents, and he's obliged to be guided by their interests). The prostitute does not. He/she is (or at least should be) free to give or sell what is theirs, and only theirs.

"So it's a peculiarly equal-treatment patriarchy, no?"

No. On the contrary. Certain marriages in certain societies are essentially a form of legalized prostitution. The men in these marriages would be relatively disempowered if prostitution was legal. This has a lot to do with why it's not.

"I wouldn't consider a ban on mechanical engineering"

This analogy is even more asinine than the political-bribery one.

bob: "Should they be locked away for subjecting themselves to their strange desires? How would that improve society?"

It wouldn't improve society, but it would help certain people feel better about themselves. As it is, they suffer from a feeling that other folks are having more fun than they are. That's why so much effort goes into making judgments and trying to lock people up.

This point was captured very succinctly by ugggh.

jon: "So you are saying that womens sexuality is expressed in the selling of their bodies to men? That banning it somehow represses women?"

I think your questions were answered here. That article has been cited now for the third time. If someone can explain why Howley is wrong, that would be helpful. So far I haven't seen anyone try.

puss: "The similarities between church and porn are kind of interesting, actually."

Good point. Here's another similarity: they're both big business.

Here's another similarity: they share lots of customers.

Ross is making a very flimsy argument here.

To be more precise, he’s insufficiently describing his case. He talks about “activities that are freely chosen but ultimately self-abusive and morally degrading” without demonstrating (or trying to) what he means by “self-abuse” and “morally degrading”.

Ultimately, the tut-tutting argument he is making is based on the view that sex in itself possesses some dirty qualities that place it in a special category of human activity with regards to morality.

We trade our bodies for money when we do manual labor. So “trading the body for money” is not what he’s against. We trade our minds (which many of us would consider more sacred than the body) for money when we do other kinds of work – this is how Ross makes his money.

Specifically, it’s the component of sex that throws prostitution into the red zone on Douthat’s moral compass. Renting out your body to satisfy another person’s desire for money = fine. Renting it to satisfy the same person’s desire for sex = bad.

Why the difference? Alas, he didn’t even attempt to explain, even though it’s the foundation of his entire argument.

Jukeboxgrad,

Howley is wrong because her premise (that anyone should be able to have sex with whichever willing partner they want, whenever they want, and not be made to feel bad or guilty about it) is false. Not only false, but absurd.

There, I did it...do I get a prize?

"DeGaulle, Hitler, and Roosevelt are all the same because they all lead capitalist states." says a Russian in the 1930s.

"The Egyptians, the Greeks and the Persians are all the same because they are hellbound Gentiles who do not worship the God of Israel." says a pious 1st century Jew.

"Stalin, Castro, Nehru and Michael Manley are all the same because they believe in state ownership of industry." says a modern American libertarian.

"Oliver Cromwell, Savonarola, Hector, and Osama Bin Laden are all the same because they all want to abolish prostitution in the name of a moral ideal." says Jukeboxgrad.

Do you see the logical problem with each and every one of these statements?

Hector,

Was that last post an example of the famous "because I said so" school of argument, or do you have a reason for thinking shame and/or guilt are appropriate responses to sex, and that disagreeing is absurd?

Guilt is an appropriate response to _some_ kinds of sex, yes. Or I should say, any kind of sex that isn't in the context of a serious relationship that flows from love and affection between a man and a women.

Guilt is a good thing, isn't it? As the following storry would suggest:


"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Verily I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Hector,

My apologies. I hadn't realized at first that you were a performance artist with no intention of making a serious point.

Carry on,

antipath

hector: "do I get a prize?"

You said Howley's premise is false, but you didn't explain why it's false. So if there's a prize for proving you don't understand the difference between making a claim and proving a claim, then that's the prize you deserve.

Aside from that, you put words in her mouth.

"Do you see the logical problem with each and every one of these statements?"

There you go again. Do you see the logical problem with claiming I said something I didn't say?

"Guilt is an appropriate response to _some_ kinds of sex, yes. Or I should say, any kind of sex that isn't in the context of a serious relationship that flows from love and affection between a man and a women. Guilt is a good thing, isn't it?"

We realize you feel guilty when you masturbate, and that you like it that way. That doesn't give you the right to impose your reality on the rest of us.

"And he spake this parable"

In an earlier comment I predicted that the Bible would appear. How timely of you.

Re: Suppressing prostitution is an important first step on the way to get there.

You might do better to follow the examples of St Nicholas and the Empress Theodora. To save women from prostitution they provided them with dowries so they could marry instead. In today's world it's a lot more complicated than that: you'd have to provide these women with job skills and some sort of counselling to help them overcome their inner demons. But for sure just passing a law and expecting it do the job is a bit like King Canute ordering the tide out.

Re: In this they took a lead from St. Augustine (who, great man that he was, was wrong about this) who said "Get rid of prostitution and the world will drown in lust."

Unfortunately the Saint may have been right. While we have not gotten rid of prostitution entirely, we have vastly reduced its occurence. The result has been the sexualization of the population as a whole.

Re: Your conflation of, say, Cromwell's England, Savonarola's Venice, Castro's Cuba, and Shariah law because they all demanded conformity to an ideal of virtue is truly sophomoric.

Minor quibble, Hector: Savonarola ruled in Florence, not Venice. Also, I do think there are commonalities among the first three, all of them being the fundamenatal and very misguided utopianism of the rulers.

Re: Is the horror of Oedipus Rex that the adult incest was somehow exploitative, or is the tragedy not really a tragedy at all?

Let's recall that Oedipus also murdered his father and that, not incest, was the proximate cause of his fall (the plague that was devastating Thebes was sent in retaliation for his patricide). Sophocles does dwell at great length on the incest of course, but it's mainly a way of hyping up his audience's emotions. The theme of the play is not incest at all, but the inexorable power of fate.

I was, in fact, suggesting Aristotle's works. The reason was irritation at the provincialism of those who are assured that there can be nothing more profound on matters of government and morals than a third-hand medley of John Locke and John Stuart Mill.

What's more annoying is that 90% of the folks here using libertarian reasoning and rhetoric will abandon it as soon as the subject switches to taxes rates, environmental protection, racial discrimination, public schooling, etc...

anach: "those who are assured that there can be nothing more profound on matters of government and morals"

On certain days of the week, 'conservatives' like to argue that government is inherently untrustworthy and incompetent, and that it should be made as small and weak as possible, and that it should get the hell out of our way. And they elect people who seem to be fundamentally opposed to the very idea of government (as exemplified by Saint Ronnie's famous quip about terrifying words). But then on other days, they like to argue that government should lead the crusade for our moral salvation, which includes keeping an eye on what's going on between our sheets. Interesting how that works. Sort of like how nation-building is a great idea as long as it's some nation other than ours.

"What's more annoying is that 90% of the folks here using libertarian reasoning and rhetoric will abandon it as soon as the subject switches to taxes rates, environmental protection, racial discrimination, public schooling, etc..."

What's more annoying is that 90% of the folks here advocating a paternalistic, interventionist government, based on the idea that government is so inherently trustworthy, wise and moral, will abandon that advocacy as soon as the subject switches to taxes rates, environmental protection, racial discrimination, public schooling, etc...

The underlying debate is different from what you're presenting it as. The question is not really about the size or competency so much as the role of government. Likewise, you've left out the question of subsidiarity.

Conservatives who think the government should keep prostitution illegal hardly assume government is always trustworthy and a good moral judge. If fact, they probably see this as a pretty minimal standard, one so minimal that even a fairly incompetent and morally obtuse government should be able to get it right.

anach: "you've left out the question of subsidiarity"

Funny you should bring that up. I thought it meant that a central authority should perform "only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level."

In other words, the government has no business trying to protect my moral and spiritual welfare if I can take of that myself. And I can. If you're in a different category, that's your problem, and you should avoid projecting.

I think seeing Oliver Cromwell and Savonarola as "of the Left" can be justified, but is largely defining the Left in a very expansive way that would rarely be acceptable in the English-speaking world. Because using that logic the Iranian Revolution was a Leftist revolution and some do take that position. It was the overthrow of a traditional monarchic system in favor of a revolutionary system steeped (in principle) in societal rather than individual improvement. However defending or opposing the Ayatollah Khomeini as a Leftist would be perplexing in most situations or discussions.

If "the Left" means anything it doesn't mean striving for some virtuous Republic. Plato is as much, or more, loved by the Right than the Left. Although this is simplified the defining thing in "the Left" is a belief in a more egalitarian society. The aristocratic quality in Plato only makes him fitting to the more totalitarian Left like the late H. G. Wells. Even then to Wells "the virtuous Republic" was ideally just a means to an end. That end being people so virtuous they no longer needed the Republic. (Because in essence they'd be so brainwashed and selectively bred they'd lack free-will to be unvirtuous in Wells's meaning of "virtue.")

And although I agree prostitution should be banned some of Hector's talk about a "Republic of Virtues" strikes me as potentially totalitarian. It's "Left" in so much as traditionally conservatism rejects utopianism while the Left embraces it. Otherwise it doesn't sound much more Leftist than G. K. Chesterton or Hassan Turabi.

Jukeboxgrad,

No, _subsidiarity_ means nothing of the kind. It doesn't mean that _individuals_ should exert more power over their lives, although that might or might not be a good thing for other reasons. As I understand it, it means that institutions of intermediate scale should exert more power in society, as an alternative to the individual or the state. The subsidiarity theory rests on the comparison of society to the human body in which these intermediate institutions correspond to the various organs. They might include churches, labor unions, economic guilds, ethnic associations, local governments, etc.

JonF,

Yes! I like the Empress Theodora very much- what an inspiring life story, and a refutation of those who would argue the Christian religion is anti-feminist.

I don't particularly want to throw prostitutes in prison. I would prefer to rehabilitate them, as you suggest. I would prefer to prosecute the pimps and probably the customers. But most of all I want to see the law on the books, whether it's inforced or not, because I believe that it makes a moral statement to society. In a legalistic society (which is what we have become), when we make something legal, we tacitly extend it our moral acceptance as well, and that's something I think we ought not to do about prostitution.

"What's more annoying is that 90% of the folks here using libertarian reasoning and rhetoric will abandon it as soon as the subject switches to taxes rates, environmental protection, racial discrimination, public schooling, etc..."

That's probably because that 90% aren't libertarians, but liberals, who share the same views on social issues like drugs and prostitution, but differ on other issues. The main difference is that the subjects you mention all, to one degree or another, involve protecting certain people from being harmed by certain other people. Not from themselves. Seems like a rather crucial distinction.

hector: "They might include churches, labor unions, economic guilds, ethnic associations …"

You seem to be suggesting that society has lots of institutions (other than government) which work to enhance our spiritual and moral lives. If so, I agree with you. That's my point, that this business belongs elsewhere, not in the realm of laws and government. And if it has to be government, it should be local.

In a legalistic society (which is what we have become), when we make something legal, we tacitly extend it our moral acceptance as well, and that's something I think we ought not to do about prostitution.

Aye, aye -- a very good point Hector, though to the libertine hordes who see nothing wrong with prostitution in any case, it won't make much sense.

"the government has no business trying to protect my moral and spiritual welfare if I can take of that myself. And I can."

The fact that you think yourself capable of looking after your own moral and spiritual welfare is evidence that you can't. Anyone arrogant to think they've got everything fine on their own is certainly not to be trusted. Government isn't the only way society deals with the moral and spiritual welfare of its members, but it is a part, and always will be, for better or worse.

One thing we liberals who are in favour of legalising prostitution have is support for an adequate (or better) welfare state. Arguments that this will beggar everyone aside (and I have more faith in the productivity of capitalism than that anyway), this means that it would make prostitution (as well as other unpleasant jobs) more voluntary than can be the case today.

anach: "The fact that you think yourself capable of looking after your own moral and spiritual welfare is evidence that you can't."

You're being annoyingly and gratuitously literal. I said this: "the government has no business trying to protect my moral and spiritual welfare if I can take of that myself. And I can."

Yes, I said I'm able to look after my own moral and spiritual welfare. I didn't mean that I'm able to do that without any help whatsoever, from anyone whatsoever. I meant that I'm able to do that without help (especially unrequested help) from the government. Any help that I need (and that anyone would need) is readily available from many other sources. The help is also more effective (and moral) when it's voluntary, rather than coercive and punitive.

You're making a fuss because I said what I said, instead of saying this: 'And I can take care of it myself, with support from numerous sources other than the government.' I thought that was implied.

Imagine if I had said 'I don't need the government to feed me, because I can take care of that myself.' I suppose you would then make this asinine response: 'no you can't, because you need farmers and supermarkets to provide you with food.'

"Anyone arrogant to think they've got everything fine on their own"

Anyone literal enough to misinterpret what I said (in the way you did) is probably not trying to have a serious conversation.

Your complaint about being misinterpreted would probably have more force if you hadn't completely misunderstood me on subsidiarity earlier.

Regardless, the problem with your view is that it lacks the force government provides. I quite agree that most moral instruction should come from family, church, local community, etc... But the basic, minimal moral standards will still need to be upheld by the force the state provides. And I imagine you'd agree with that, you just don't seem to think prostitution falls under that.

anach: "if you hadn't completely misunderstood me on subsidiarity earlier"

You haven't explained what I allegedly misunderstood about subsidiarity. In case you're confused by what Hector said (that it doesn't extend to the level of the individual), you should know that he's wrong: "the principle of subsidiarity holds that government should undertake only those initiatives which exceed the capacity of individuals or private groups acting independently" (emphasis added).

"the basic, minimal moral standards will still need to be upheld by the force the state provides"

The state has no business meddling in crimes that I'm allegedly committing against myself. What lies at the end of that road is totalitarianism.

I should make it clear that I have a lot of problems with the subsidiarity concept, and as a non-Catholic, I'm not obliged to believe in it. Nevertheless, it is a powerful and compelling theory.

It has nothing to do with the doctrine of liberalism, that autonomous individuals ought to decide all major moral issues for themselves. You are taking the dictionary definition of 'subsidiarity' completely out of context. The concept was articulated in the context of 19th century debates in which Catholic social thinkers were trying to define a position that was opposed to both liberal-capitalism and to Marxist-influenced socialism. Subsidiarity, if it has any particular 'model', draws on the model of the feudal Middle Ages in which a number of intermediate organizations (the church, the lord, the guild) interposed themselves between the individual and the state.

It is eminently the business of the state to try to keep you from commiting crimes against yourself, under certain conditions. _If_ those crimes are sufficiently serious, if it's evident to most people of goodwill that they are crimes, if there are no extenuating factors, if it's feasible to punish them, etc.

Thomas R,

Sorry I didn't notice your post yesterday. Cromwell was very definitely of the Left- he was leader of the side that opposed the established power structure of the day. Not the extreme left- that would be the Levellers, who opposed _all_ power structures. Savonarola was also of the left inasmuch as he was opposed to the Pope, the nobles and the merchant bourgeoisie of Florence.

A 'Republic of Virtue' is left wing in the sense that it's necessarily corrosive of existing power structures. It holds that society should be ruled by the virtuous _rather than_ by the pure-blooded or by the rich or the landlords or the technocrats. It's in this sense that historians would see the Kharijite heresy of early Islam as a left wing rather than a right wing movement.

Anyone who hates inequality, which you would define as the defining characteristic of the Left, must also hate prostitution since prostitution is by definition the debasing and degradation of a particular group of people for the pleasure of another. It's quite a glaring form of inequality, every bit as much as slavery.

Re: I think seeing Oliver Cromwell and Savonarola as "of the Left" can be justified, but is largely defining the Left in a very expansive way that would rarely be acceptable in the English-speaking world.

By the standards of their time (but not obviously ours) both genetlmen were indeed Lefists. The Ayatollah Khomeini is a much harder case, in part because we are dealing with an alien, non-European culture that may not fit well with our notions of "Left" and "Right".

Re: But most of all I want to see the law on the books, whether it's inforced or not, because I believe that it makes a moral statement to society.

I very much do not like unenforced laws. They invite mockery and derision, and offer vast opportunity for all sorts of corruption and injustice (and can fatten the coffers of organized crime too). If it's a moral proclamation you want that can and should be made from the pulpit, where such proclamations belong. There seems to be an odd notion afoot that the state is the only agency competent to do just about anything. As folks here know I see a large role for the state, but morality-teaching belongs more properly to the Church.

"he was leader of the side that opposed the established power structure of the day." Hector

To me that's not what being on the Left means and I've rarely heard it mean that to anyone. Granted "the Left" began as a French Revolutionary term so applying it to people before the 18th century is a little dicey anyway.

Still if we're even going to go by the French Revolutionary view "the Left" represented a desire to reduce or end the power of the clergy and the aristocracy. I suppose Savonarola and Cromwell fit that in a way, but it still strikes me as kind of a reach. The "Left" as defined by the end of the French Revolution meant emphasis on Liberty and Equality as well as a virtual ending of Christianity as a political force. Cromwell or Savonarola don't fit that at all.

"Anyone who hates inequality, which you would define as the defining characteristic of the Left, must also hate prostitution" Hector

TR: As far as I know "the Left" does not favor prostitution. Sweden is one of the nations I listed as banning it.

What I was objecting to is that "eroding existing power structures" in favor of "the direction of a perfect ideal of virtue" is Left-wing. I don't think that's what Left-wing ever meant.

If the Bahamas were overthrown by a Christian fundamentalist regime that banned banks from charging interest, destroyed all Hindu idols, and forbid women from having positions of power over men it'd be Leftist by your definition. I mean 46% of "Legislators, senior officials and managers" in the Bahamas are women. Also essentially throwing out banks would be undoing a power structure.

http://hdrstats.undp.org/indicators/282.html

For that matter the Taliban would be Leftist. It favored virtue and worked against the existing power structure of the warlords.

JonF,

The problem is that in early 21st century America, the churches are politically powerless. They can serve as moral teachers, at best, to a subset of their members, and not even to many of those. How many Catholics really _believe_ the teaching of their Church about birth control? The churches haven't even been able to stop people from having abortions, which unlike birth control (IMO) is actually a moral crime and an offense against natural reason and inclination as well as against religious teachings.

If we lived in a society where the churches were powerful and influential actors in society, it would be one thing. If we lived in a secular society where there was a shared, deeply held non-religious ideal of virtue it would be another. But in our society, the state is the only _effective_ moral teacher for a great many people, and if you want to have prostitution be morally condemned, the state needs to be the one to do it.

Thomas R.,

JonF is right re: Cromwell and Savonarola. I would say that the Left is defined by a passion for inequality (or, better, a hatred of inequality) but not necessarily liberty. The partisans of 'liberty' I would put in the _center_.

I wouldn't categorize Savonarola as a 'fundamentalist' per se, since his claimed source of authority was personal revelation and not written scripture.

It seems to me that a ruler (Savonarola) who opposes the aristocracy, the papacy and the merchant bourgeoisie is moving rather definitely in the direction of greater equality, and I would suspect that what with his opposition to luxury and finance Florence did become more economically equal during his rule. Why do you think he was on the right....in what way did he _reduce_ equality? Savonarola did serve as an inspiration to anti-clerical and socialist groups in late 19th century Sicily, which took his name.

"In Grotte among the sulfur miners a local middle class man and ex-priest, S. Dimino, had founded an evangelical church some decades back, which had established itself in the face of bitter ecclesiastic opposition. Now all the evangelical miners became Socialists and founded a Circolo Savonarola in which Dimino taught them Christian socialism."
From Eric Hobsbawm, 1965. "Primitive Rebels: Studies in Archaic Forms of Social Movements in the 19th Century."

I'm not sure I said he was on the Right per se. I'm just saying placing him on the Left strikes me as wrongheaded and basically anachronistic.

Even if some of what he did reduced inequality the goal was more about purifying immoral and un-Christian influences. This makes him more similar to Fundamentalism than Leftism, but I don't think I said he was Fundamentalist. In truth neither comparison is really helpful.

If one must compare pre-French-Revolution figures as "on the Left" it'd make more sense to pick ones more commonly chosen as such. For example the Lollards, the Peasants War, and the Anabaptists. Still I think I maintained from the beginning you can see Savonarola as on the Left, if you just really want to, but that it's just not useful or productive to do so.

Lastly what Savonarola inspired is not per se important in defining what he was. Many on the Left wore the kind of beret popularized by the Spanish Carlist and even had some romantic views of them. Yet the Carlists are generally agreed to have been on the Right and favored a return of the Inquisition among other things. (Possibly you'll argue the Carlists were on the Left as well, but if so I won't be able to argue the matter as I'm intending to be gone until Easter)

Re: The "Left" as defined by the end of the French Revolution meant emphasis on Liberty and Equality as well as a virtual ending of Christianity as a political force.

Our politics do not begin or end with the French Revolution. The Left (overall) seeks to change (or overthrow when extreme) the established, traditional order, whatever it is, and found something that it deems is more just. The Right by contrast seeks to defend the established traditional order (or restore if that order is seen as having been lost). By that standard Savonarola and Cromwell were both leftists. And for those who seem to think that leftists can never be totalitarian, do you then see Lenin and Robespierre as gentlemen of the Right?

As a male sex worker, I take great offense to the notion that I must be criminalized "for my own good." The author's position that renting out one's body to satisfy the sexual needs of another constitutes a serious form of self-abuse strikes me as completely ludicrous. Isn't that exactly what highly paid lingerie and swimsuit models are doing? Do the opponents of sexuality contend that the actual, physical touching of me by another human being is what makes what they do "OK" and what I do a self-abusive horror from which I must be protected? Rubbish! Being touched by other human beings is healthy and good for us. Most people don't get enough touch, and health ailments and even death can be caused by loneliness. Look how often the surviving partner in a long-term relationship dies not long after the passing of a loved spouse.

As to the argument voiced by Hector that legal prostitution exists in developing countries and is unpleasant, I think that has a lot more to do with poverty, and with less enlightened attitudes toward women in many of those places, than with prostitution itself. I'm not saying sex work is for everyone. If someone does it because it's the only way to put food on the table, and lives in a place where it is socially stigmatized by attitudes stemming from religious bigotry, yeah, that person will have an unpleasant work environment! But the unpleasantness has nothing to do with the fundamental nature of exchanging money for sexual companionship, and everything to do with the consequences of working in a job for which you are temperamentally unsuited, and with the lack of respect of the public. Making prostitution fully decriminalized and accepted in societies around the world will go a long way toward ensuring that only those who are emotionally ready to do the work properly enter into the profession, and that we are all treated with the respect that we deserve.