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Prostitution, Morality and the Law (II)

13 Mar 2008 12:26 pm

Noah Millman, responding to my earlier post:

But there are lots of ways to abuse yourself, right? A steady diet of Krispy Kremes would do some serious abuse to your body (or, I should say, the body that is you – in this scheme, the body is not an owned thing that is yours). Not serious enough to warrant legal sanction? Well, gluttony is one of the seven deadlies, right up there with lust. And the medievals did have all sorts of laws regulating consumption. Are we going there? Or pick some other sex examples: I don’t believe Ross approves of legislation against sodomy, masturbation or adultery. But those are all behaviors that are traditionally understood to be “self-abusive” (indeed, what does “self-abuse” traditionally mean?), and the last of them (adultery) isn’t even arguably victimless. Why not ban them? The law can be a moral teacher, after all, even when it’s not aggressively enforced, as Ross himself says.

Why are some forms of paternalism – of which morals legislation form a sub-category – OK and others are insulting to a free people? I don’t think you can get back to an answer that prostitution is the sort of thing we should keep illegal without some argument about the power relations that predominate in the transaction in question.

I actually think it’s perfectly possible to distinguish between forms of moral paternalism without resorting to arguments about whether the behavior that's up for regulation is ultimately non-consensual. Here are four grounds one might employ: The seriousness of the form of self-abuse in question, the avoidability of the abuse (to borrow from from Aquinas's argument that the law should only prohibit vices "which it is possible for the greater part of the multitude to abstain from"), the plausibility of regulation, and the private/public distinction. So masturbation, for instance, is a private and well-nigh universal vice (among men, at least) with no plausible means of interdiction. Sodomy and adultery are likewise acts that can only be regulated through extreme invasions of privacy; moreover, the fact that homosexuality seems to be an innate orientation rather than a choice means that even if one views same-sex sodomy as immoral, it isn't plausible to expect "the greater part of the multitude" who are inclined toward homosexuality to abstain from it. (I'm stretching Aquinas's argument a bit, but not implausibly, I think.)

The possession and abuse of illegal drugs can similarly only be prohibited at a significant cost to personal privacy. I tend to think the gravity of the self-abuse involved outweighs the cost to privacy, but only in some cases: If you’re growing marijuana in your basement, the law should probably leave you alone; if you’re running a meth lab, it probably shouldn’t.

In the cases of vices that involve excess, meanwhile – gluttony and alcoholism, for instance – there’s also the problem that any plausible regulation designed to restrict the abuse would end up casting too wide a net, and infringing too far on ordinary pleasures. If bans on alcohol only affected people with debilitating alcoholism, or bans on fast food only applied the grossly overweight, I might be inclined to support them. But there’s no plausible way to make these kind of distinctions: If you ban fast food or spirits, you have to ban it for everyone, or else set up some sort of police state around liquor stores and McDonalds.

In the case of prostitution, though, none of these objections to a ban prevail. Selling or buying sex is a grave form of self-abuse, rather than a minor one. It’s a public vice, rather than a private one. It’s hard to stamp out, but you don’t have to invade people’s homes to significantly restrict it. And it’s a practice that "the greater part of the multitude" are perfectly capable of abstaining from, since there's no innate inclination toward buying or selling sex. Whereas sodomy laws, by forbidding gays and lesbians from pursuing sexual and romantic intimacy, attempt to enforce a heroic adherence to natural law, anti-prostitution laws are far more minimalist in their aims, and far less invasive. It's cruel and unreasonable for the law to demand that Andrew forswear sexual relations with the man he loves; it's perfectly reasonable, and not at all cruel, for the law to demand that Eliot Spitzer forswear sexual relations with a high-class hooker.

Or so I would argue. Obviously, these sort of judgments are prudential rather than definitive, and I'm not sure where I would draw the line in many instances. And one appeal of setting a "consenting adults" standard on morals legislation, rather than the more latitudinarian standards I've suggested, is that it removes at least some of the subjective element from these debates. But I don't have really have a problem with a standard for morals legislation that leaves vast gray areas where people can argue back and forth: That's why we have the democratic process.

Comments (43)

On what basis is prostitution judged as a grave form of self-abuse, rather than a minor one? How do you measure that? I'm not saying there are no good reasons for judging that way, but it doesn't seem that those reasons have been clearly articulated.

Do you really believe that masturbation is a "vice"??

Really?

Right you are, Tel. Ross just skirted past a huge part of his argument without making any argument whatsover. I would like to know what Ross thinks is the comparative abuse of one's body between someone using heroin and someone, say, going to a legal brothel in Nevada while on vacation. To me they are not even on the same scale, but Ross seems to want to lump them both together as being grave without even any discussion.

Tel has a point, but thanks, Ross, for presenting a principled defense of a conservative point of view. I hope we see more of this.

the idea that it is consensual sex is absurd. the whole point of prostitution is that it gets women to have sex with people that they wouldn't choose to. indeed, if they refuse to have sex with anyone in particular, they lose their job -- and usually much worse.

and also, where do you draw the line between prostitution and sexual harassment? if prostitution is legal, then how can it be illegal for a boss to expect sexual favours as condition of employment?

Making prostitution illegal is also a very good way of reducing the temptation for men to cheat on their wives with far younger and far more attractive women.

As Dr Johnson once observed, "If a servant, indeed, were to resist the continued temptation of silver lying in a window, as some people let it lye, when he is sure his master does not know how much there is of it, he would give a
strong proof of honesty. But this is a proof to which you have no right to put a man. You know, humanly speaking, there is a certain degree of temptation which will overcome any virtue. Now, in so far as you approach temptation to a man, you do him an injury; and, if he is overcome, you share his guilt."

It is vital that prostitution be seen as shameful and taboo. Otherwise, sexual relationships would quickly be eroded down to their barest, least secure, and most transactional functions.

Just to keep the range of the debate open, I'll voice some qualified support for anti-adultery and anti-sodomy laws.

An adulterer violates the rights of his or her spouse to the exclusive enjoyment of her or his spouse's body. As these conjugal rights are in part created through a legal public agreement, they are a fitting object of state action, assuming reasonable enforcement is possible.

As for anti-sodomy laws, I ask: how many gay men would be alive today if there had been an anti-sodomy crackdown at the start of the AIDS epidemic?

Open sexual perversion prevents people from living in a culture of minimal decency. Ergo, its suppression can be directed for the common good.

Chris, if that's the case, then everybody getting paid to do anything is a slave. I certainly wouldn't be working in a cubicle every day if they weren't paying me. The work is mind-numbing, and the money is the only reason I would ever choose to do this. If I don't do the jobs that the boss and the customers give me, I get fired and lose my health coverage. That doesn't mean that I'm being coerced into it, or that I don't really consent to working my job.

When are we going to get over the absurd fiction that what you do in the bedroom has no important effects on anyone else? Sex has all sorts of externalities.
http://mangans.blogspot.com/2008/02/sex-has-consequences.html

Chris

Your observation (above) is timeless and illustrative. Dr Johnson who by the way (& from what?)

A good example of this is internet pornography that is proving a huge problem from psychologists & religious groups reporting addictions to wives and infidelity and even the workplace.

Another example I often use is "does anyone honestly believe that if cocaine were sold for pennies a pound at the supermarket we wouldn’t see a net increase in addiction and multiple other troubles.

"Selling or buying sex is a grave form of self-abuse, rather than a minor one. It’s a public vice, rather than a private one. "

Wrong on both counts.

Dad.

It only took 7 comments to get a call for a 'crackdown' on gays. Wow.

I think some of these comments are doing the concept of 'externality' wrong.

Is prostitution bad because it takes advantage of poor, desperate women (as feminists might argue) or because call girls tempt men who are prone to weakness (as Dr. Johnson argues above). I can't tell what Ross thinks, and this seems the question for conservatives because it'll determine who we throw in jail (the most relevant question, since I doubt legalization is on the way).

The great Samuel Johnson, "the" Doctor Johnson, ably documented by that absurd and fantastic libertine and guilty sinner, Boswell.

Fitz, you should really read all of Johnson's Idler and Rambler and such pieces, and the "Life of Johnson" to boot. A great moralist, literary man, and a Christian who, though a lazy and peculiar man, worked out his salvation (we may hope) with fear and trembling.

If this Marquis had to pick a "hero" it might well be Johnson.

I don't understand how prostitution can be considered a public vice. If my neighbor has sex with a prostitute in his house every night, does that affect me in any way? No. Why should I get to regulate his behavior? What gives me, or anyone, that authority? Call me crazy, but I think adults should be allowed to make their own decisions when it comes to sexuality, whether it be by paying money for sex or accepting it.

Ross,

Your recognition of the totalitarian implications of attempts to regulate many of these lifestyle decisions seems largely constructed as a concession to their impracticality. While you acknowledge the liberty interests of gay people, you constrain this respect by reference to the innateness of sexual orientation. This perspective neglects too much the idea that liberty is itself a moral value. Indeed, your post completely fails to address Millman’s “insulting to a free people” language, a notion rather central to his argument.

One particular reason liberty carries moral weight is that minorities must depend on it to pursue their aspirations in any areas where their habits or ideas are unpopular. You refer to “ordinary pleasures” and “the democratic process,” as though a majority’s morés, preferences, and beliefs about meaning, happiness, and lifestyle are arrived at scentifically, and dissent is absurd.

If you feel so certain about what constitutes dignity and harm for everyone, why not ban minority religions, especially those engaged in by small minorities? Would you object that religion pertains to matters of profound concern, while sex is merely physical? But I thought conservatives fiercely contest such a view. So do many on the left, incidentally, although we do not share your seeming certainty about a universally applicable standard for what conditions make sex meaningful or degrading. We may have opinions about these things, and discuss them, but we understand there’s a complex interplay among body, thought, culture, personality, and emotion in the creation of meaning and would hesitate to be presumptuous enough to short-circuit that conversation about sexual and relationship experience with legal pronouncements. That is to say, many of us also believe liberty has practical value, and in matters of sex, robust dialogue depends on reference to actual behavioral experience, which in turn means discussion and reflection require freedom of action, including the freedom to partake of different and at times unconventional experiences over time. You’ve so far neglected claims about both the practical value and the moral significance of liberty in matters of culture.

When I was a child and a conservative (before I took StPaul's advice and put away childish things) it seemed to most conservatives that there was a bright shining line between the Right and the Left. That line was a belief in the perfectability of humanity. Liberals were supposed to believe that mankind could become 'better' than we ever had been--even 'perfected'--by external influences. Thus income redistribution and civil rights legislation were opposed and derided as foolish attempts to bring the Kingdom of God to earth without the necessity of redemption.

Conservatives were the ones who 'realitically' saw humanity as fallen and government in particular and society in general as a historic and organic way of developing civilization from the poor clay of our kind.

Now we see that it is the conservatives who think men can to 'taught' by laws to be better and that intimate relationships can be protected from the consequences of sin by the threat of jail.

Thank God (if He exists) that I put away childish and stupid ideas.

Er, John? You've sort of misapplied the conservative principle here. We don't actually think laws against prostitution will perfect man, any more than laws against theft stop all theft. We just think they do more good than harm, properly applied. That's all. No need to believe in perfectibility, at all. The most problematic advocates of income redistribution thought they could eliminate inequality and injustice, which is nuts. No (sane) conservative thinks that after fifty years of anti-prostitution laws, prostitution will go away.

Really, I'm just not sure how this application of "perfectibility" doesn't apply to almost all law: theft, murder, etc. You might make a distinguishing point on the notion of "victimless" crimes, the usual libertarian point here, but that's a completely different point, one where you can't try a jujitsu move of turning conservative arguments against conservatives.

So, before you start calling ideas stupid and childish, how about thinking through (at least a little bit) the argument you're about to post?

Marquis,
How do you presume to know that these laws do more good than harm? If you were wrong about this, how would you find out? Is advocating these laws really rooted mostly in an empirical claim, or something more dogmatic?

The whole debate has been quite interesting.

However, I saw this line in one of the comments:

"A good example of this is internet pornography that is proving a huge problem from psychologists & religious groups reporting addictions to wives and infidelity and even the workplace"

So what is the difference between commercial pornography and prostitution. One involves charging one person (in most cases) a lot of money to perform a sex act with them and the other involves charging a lot of people a small amount of money to perform a sex act for them.

Nevertheless, pornography is more or less legal and I am yet to see the deleterious effects on "society". As pornograhy has boomed (to the extent that it is almost mainstream), divorces, teen pregnancy, domestic abuse etc. have actually flattened out or started falling. Women's status in society has risen to the extent that they now outnumber men in college; heck men are even doing more housework (http://www.ur.umich.edu/0102/Mar25_02/16.htm)!

There's no doubt that far more men watch poronography today (and watch a lot more than say 30 years ago) and that some are even "addicted". However, I strongly suspect that some of those "addicted" to pornography may have been "addicted" to something else if there was no pronography available. Better to be addicted to a private (if somewhat unpleasant) vice like pornography than to the religious fanaticism that leads you to blow up things that you see in countries where young men can't buy a drink or see a little ankle!

How do you presume to know that these laws do more good than harm? If you were wrong about this, how would you find out? Is advocating these laws really rooted mostly in an empirical claim, or something more dogmatic?

Both. I don't _know_, and I'm not sure how the heck you'd find out (this is true of lots of laws that aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and some would be bad ideas, we'd all agree, to do experiments on).

It's partly dogmatic, in that prostitution is quite horrid, but partly empirical/pragmatic. Note that, as Hector and others have pointed out, Christian civilizations have had a pretty wide range of legal attitudes to prostitution. Augustine and others thought it was _wrong_ at least as much as I do, I think, but had pragmatic arguments in favor of legal toleration to some extent. I just think some of those arguments apply to circumstances that are vanished, and some relied on assumptions about human behavior I don't quite agree with.

Better to be addicted to a private (if somewhat unpleasant) vice like pornography than to the religious fanaticism that leads you to blow up things that you see in countries where young men can't buy a drink or see a little ankle!

Well, I guess so. Though the STD rates of the young girls aren't looking so great, are they?

Moreover, it's far from clear that the choice is porn or sharia. So far from clear that it's a nonsensical choice. I mean, I prefer the pornified culture to the Soviet state of 1936, but I'm not really seeing the connection. The US won't become Saudi Arabia if it scales back toleration of pornography to, say, 1940s levels.

Marquis,

Fair enough.

However, I am not sure we can have 1940s toleration with 1940s society. One of the trade-offs from having a freer society is that we have to allow more private "policing" of moral choices than "societal policing". It's a trade-off that the U.S. and other "western" countries have made and I strongly suspect that India and China (and other emerging countries) will make that trade-off as they see the benefits of a freer society. And yes, I will not trade my life today, for life in 1940s U.S. or 1970 for that matter).

(By the way, although I must admit that while the "teen std study" has gained a lot of press, I'm not sure what to make of it. I read the reports on the study and it said that it was the first time ever such a study was carried out. So there is no time-series to see if these rates are trending up or down. Even if we eventually conclude that they are trending up, it may be that (a) we are better at detecting stds in teens (b) teens are more likely to report them than ever before

Hmm, I see nothing especially liberal about the belief that man can be perfected. Maybe it's a belief that a lot of liberals hold, but it's orthogonal to the idea that social relations are best ordered in a way that maximizes freedom in the private sphere. Whether men will be made better or perfected in such a way strikes me as not all that relevant, and I think liberals ought to be very wary of the claim that government can make us more virtuous than we already are.

I agree, to some extent, that our choice is not between porn and sharia. But, as I said in a different thread, I consider the impulse to be basically the same. A legal order constraining the sexual behavior of adults is destructive of liberty. There are clearly different degrees of this, and I am far more worried about other destructions of my liberty than I am about porn, but this is all of a piece for me.

The basic mistake (category error?) I see here is the belief that human sexual practice is necessarily special in any way. I realize this puts me at odds with most of the world (as well as myself, incidentally), but making public policy around the idea that sex should *mean* something more than simply a transaction between two people is guaranteed to undermine liberty in a whole lot of ways. And it does.

Strange of you to say, Ryan, that you resist the idea of seeing human sexual practice as necessarily special in any way. I wonder if you really believe it. I'm sure your children, if you ever have them, would love to learn that their siring had more in common with a trip to mall to buy shoelaces than they might be inclined to think.

I would think that even recreational sex would be different for humans because it was freely chosen and based on some notions of worth or desireability (whether attraction or some other ability to fulfill one's partner's self-interested desires).

As for the old fashioned view, sex is bound up in reproduction. That means that sex has a lot to do with a recognition of one's mortality, and with one's connection to one's predecessors and posterity. All that love and death stuff from your freshman English class. And out of a certain amount of restraint and modesty in these matters, there came to be things like beauty (think of clothes, for example, which beautify by covering up the most visible reminders of our mortality and limitedness) and romatic love.

If you see sex as simply another human transction, or bestial instinctual action, you lose all of that. Maybe that makes you more free. But maybe it's more free for the sort of joyless pursuit of joy that describes the unfulfilling efforts to satisfy one's deepest passions and appetites through marketplace transactions.

Strange of you to say, Ryan, that you resist the idea of seeing human sexual practice as necessarily special in any way. I wonder if you really believe it. I'm sure your children, if you ever have them, would love to learn that their siring had more in common with a trip to mall to buy shoelaces than they might be inclined to think.

I would think that even recreational sex would be different for humans because it was freely chosen and based on some notions of worth or desireability (whether attraction or some other ability to fulfill one's partner's self-interested desires).

As for the old fashioned view, sex is bound up in reproduction. That means that sex has a lot to do with a recognition of one's mortality, and with one's connection to one's predecessors and posterity. All that love and death stuff from your freshman English class. And out of a certain amount of restraint and modesty in these matters, there came to be things like beauty (think of clothes, for example, which beautify by covering up the most visible reminders of our mortality and limitedness) and romatic love.

If you see sex as simply another human transction, or bestial instinctual action, you lose all of that. Maybe that makes you more free. But maybe it's more free for the sort of joyless pursuit of joy that describes the unfulfilling efforts to satisfy one's deepest passions and appetites through marketplace transactions.

It is probably way too late in this debate to bring this up. Aquinas's view of prostitution was that it was a form of fornication. Fornication can result in natural goods, most notably children. Given this - in much abbreviated form - the State can allow prostitution because it isn't in the State's interest to eradicate every vice, at least according to Aquinas. The only problem is that since at least Evangelium Vitae, the Church has viewed prostitution not under the species of fornication but as an affront to human dignity. Had Thomas agreed to this speciation, he would have claimed that in no circumstance could prositution be tolerated, and that is the Catholic moral position today.

Re: the idea that it is consensual sex is absurd. the whole point of prostitution is that it gets women to have sex with people that they wouldn't choose to.

If you own a restaurant you will be serving dinner to people whom you would never invite to your own home for that reason.

Re: Making prostitution illegal is also a very good way of reducing the temptation for men to cheat on their wives with far younger and far more attractive women.

Except at the high end of the profession, most prostitutes, though they may be young, are decidedly not good-looking. Have you ever checked-out the average street-walker? She's what the slang word "skank" was invented to describe.

Re: I ask: how many gay men would be alive today if there had been an anti-sodomy crackdown at the start of the AIDS epidemic?

Probably not a one of them. No such "crack-down" is possible in America, unless you think our citizenry would tolerate having a morals police come breaking down bedroom doors at random, or perhaps installing cameras everywhere people could possibly have sex and programming computers to recognize when a couple is going at it. (By the way, would you make heterosexual sodomy illegal, even between spouses? Presumably it has the same exact health risks). The soundest argument against private morality laws is that they are inherently unenforceable except by means that would be more destructive of fundamental human liberty than anything Joe Stalin ever dreamed of.

Re: Open sexual perversion prevents people from living in a culture of minimal decency.

I agree that we shouldn't tolerate open and public sexual behavior, not by anyone. But sexual behavior that takes place in private is none of anyone's business, and prudes who go around imagining what others do behind closed doors are themselves perverts.

Re: When are we going to get over the absurd fiction that what you do in the bedroom has no important effects on anyone else?

If you are cheating on a spouse or other pledged partner, then obviously it does have an effect. And yes, if you pick up a disease then it has an effect on others too. But the latter argument is a pretty universal one that we could make about anything: I can pick up an illness at work therefore I shouldn't go to work. I can be hurt or killed in a traffic accident therefore I shouldn't drive. And etc.

Marquis,
I agree that many laws with ambiguous impact, such as certain kinds of business regulation, are nonetheless unlikely to be subjected to experimentation or abolition, often because designing alternate approaches to the regulated area would be too complex, controversial, or expensive. In such cases, however—at least, in instances I have in mind; tell me if you can think of counterexamples—the validity of the objective of the law or regulation is not much contested; the question is merely one of means.

This is emphatically not the case, however, insofar as sex regulation is rooted in morals concerns, which is the basis of Ross’s defense of it here. I should say, it’s endlessly exasperating for people who hold substantially different views about what sexual and other lifestyle practices are plausibly regarded as healthy or degrading to see a social conservative view of these matters, such as the alleged moral harms of prostitution or pornography, consistently treated as self-evident. After all, longstanding common practice and much writing and personal testimony reveals the existence of contrary views. The aversion to engage others’ experiences and perspectives, combined with the urge to use the state as a moral teacher and indeed punisher, seems strikingly arrogant, even perhaps authoritarian. By contrast, I have some sympathy for arguments against legalizing prostitution that are rooted in objectives around which consensus exists, such an attempt to protect vulnerable people from violence, and that actually make arguments about why prohibition advances this goal.

"It’s a public vice, rather than a private one. "

Sorry, but what takes place behind closed doors between two consenting adults, *is* a private matter, not a "public" one. Perhaps you'd be better served by grasping that simple concept. And, therefore, as such, should not be regulated (as was explained in Lawrence v. Texas).

The arguments about "effects on the spouse" or other such things are straw arguments, since any activity which may have an effect upon a spouse could be regulated using that logic. It is up to the individual to control themselves and prevent those (private, I might add) effects on the spouse, and not the government's role to interfere with it.

Re: Sorry, but what takes place behind closed doors between two consenting adults, *is* a private matter, not a "public" one.


Business transcations are always public whether they are behind closed doors or not and as such they are fit for public regulations. A mafia don hiring a hit man does not escape the law simply because he does so in his his own home with the door locked.

Re: If you see sex as simply another human transction, or bestial instinctual action, you lose all of that.

I think there is way, way, way too much glorification and mystification of sex. It is just a biological function. It's not a sacrament, nor hardly the most profound thing we humans are capable of. Both the moralists and the libertines elevate it far out of its proper place in life. It can and should be covered by the same morality that we use in all other areas of life. There is no need for a special "Sexual morality" to handle it.

I mostly agree, JonF. Sex is an act that's only as meaningful as the meaning we put into it. It can be a sacrament, if the people involved treat it as such. It can also be a drunken roll in the hay, if that's what they decide it is. It can be a glorification, a worship, a betrayal, a nothing, a financial transaction, or any other meaning people make for it.

Someone can certainly argue that people *should* treat it as a sacrament as much as they can. I happen to hold that opinion. But I'm also quite aware that there are other options. I was adopted as an infant; I would not exist if two people hadn't treated sex like a trip to the mall to buy shoelaces. I don't hold it against them.

Tal, JonF -- It's only physical desire and other illusions that blind you into thinking that sex is an act that's only as meaningful as the meaning one puts into it.

The passions of lust (which make us think sex is just about our own satisfaction) hide the ineradicable truth about the act of sex - that by engaging in an act by which we would generate those who would replace us when we die, and by consorting with another to do so, we acknowledge and assent to our humanity as limited and mortal creatures. It's a hard thing to assent to one's mortality, but that's why the act is shrouded in veils of poetry, passion, or other less than rational things (and, contrariwise, the perversity and painfulness of pornography, which would tear down those veils).

That is also the meaning, horror, and fate of Oedipus. By killing his father and having sex with his mother, he presumes to take the place of his father (in his father's bed with his mother) and be his own begettor. It is the pretension to this sort of god-like self-sufficiency that offends the gods. Indeed, the sort of person that presumes to be his own begetter, to be able in other words to define himself without any limits from birth or his human nature, that blindly thinks he can escape his fate.

But then, that's exactly what you think when you say that sex has no meaning other than what you give it, rather what the act reveals about your nature as a mortal, limited human being.

Now, I'm not exactly calling you a mother f--er, but if shoe fits ...

Regardless of who’s right about the existential meaning of sex, this thread amply attests that the question is obviously complex, controversial, and productive of strong feelings. Why then should the state not only adopt its own philosophy on this topic (already a minefield), but worse, use it to create law that is binding even on citizens who passionately and sincerely disagree?

Health-and-safety justifications for regulating sex work should be given a respectful hearing; philosophical justifications should not. Moral concerns are not unimportant—they simply belong in the cultural rather than legal realm.

Re: It's only physical desire and other illusions that blind you into thinking that sex is an act that's only as meaningful as the meaning one puts into it.

While I agree that sex puts us in mind of our mortality (the comment once made by Alexander the Great on the subject), the same is true of all our physical functions: eating, sleeping, even taking a dump. These things bind us to the flesh and remind us that our flesh is the common flesh of the Earth, liable to death and decay. But beyond that I reject your mysticism of sex just as I would reject a mysticism of anything else we do biologically and share with other creatures. (The exception here would be the Communionm but that is sacramental not because eating itself is somehow holy but because Christ marked it as a sacrament. Had God given us a sacramental sex act that too would be truly holy and sacred, of a different order of things than other sex acts). And I find especially contradictory your glorification of sex in the abstract as some sort of mystical act, coupled with a rejection of "desire" and "passion". Sorry, but you can't have one without the other. Desire and passion in all their chaotic cacaophony are inherently part of sex, things which we also share with animals (watch and listen to mating cats for a lesson there). You can no more separate them out for opprobrium than you can have a wood-less tree, or a dry ocean. And pleasure-- crude, sweaty, physical pleasure not some higher order, ethereal delight fit only for angels-- is also part of sex. Again, why mystify what is essentially a biological function? It serves certain highly useful and good functions, one should not use it to harm others (or harm them with it by selfish carelessness), and one should not allow onesself to become addicted to it or even to become overly preoccupied with it to the exclusion of other needful things. Beyond that it is nothing particularly good and sacred and holy except to the same extent that all material things may be called sacred.

Your last comment is needlessly offensive, and unworthy of (I presume) a Christian.

JonF -- I am not mystifying sex, though I am saying you cannot understand the nature of sex without understanding why it is mystified and what's lost when you demystify it.

What I am saying is that the nature of sex -- what it reveals about our mortality -- results in a reflex of a certain sort of blindness or delusion just as looking in the sun results in blinding spots in the eyes. This interacts with the deep yearnings and desires we bring to sex to perpetuate ourselves through the communion with others, our partners, past, and posterity, to give the act its unique emotional and spiritual valence.

For these reasons, one cannot just give the act the meaning one desires; one's experience of the uniquely powerful and largely uncontrollable emotions of lust, jealousy, and love or affection testify to that. They also show how unique and important the act of sex is above all others. The act of sex defines you more than you define it.

The nobility of sex, or part of it, is that it is a brute animal act but can also be so much more. Think of eating and the pleasure, communion, and art related to that act -- which though we share with animals, we do not feed or perform the act like animials -- and multiply it by a hundred. To reduce such acts to their lowest common denominator is at the end of the day your perogative in your personal life; but it is a sad reductionism that in the end is false as a general matter because it ignores the other possibilities and aspects of the act. In particular, it ignores what is humanely unique and human about sex when humans (who are aware of their mortality) as opposed to animals (who are not) engage in it.

That is a humanistic perspective that one gathers from art and that helps one appreciate art, which you also lose when you don't see anything more than two animals rubbing up against one another or think the act is no different from evacuating your bowels. I thought that came through from the Oedipus blurb.

As for the last comment, that was meant to be a joke about the similarities between your view of things and Oedipus's (he is, after all, our paradigm, according to the play) and apparently did not come off. I sincerely apologize for that and any offensive I unintentionally gave you.

"While I agree that sex puts us in mind of our mortality (the comment once made by Alexander the Great on the subject), the same is true of all our physical functions: eating, sleeping, even taking a dump. "

1. Sex does share much in common with eating sleeping and dumping. But does JonF have the same feelings for his daily dump and serving of hamburger helper as he does for the last person he had sex with. If he did, people would think him inhuman.

2. Does JonFs family friends and community have the same concern with whom he is sleeping with as they do with what he eats or his stool. If they did, they would be amusing and mildly distrubed.

3. What ultimately brought Spitzer down? Not his violation of campain laws, not his violation of numerous other rules of politics and angering of enemies, or even trooper gate -- but sex.

Sex is different.

4. Oscar Wilde, or maybe Churchill, but some old wag once said you can't have great sex without great books or great books without great sex. I'd rather be wrong about sex but have great books and great sex than right about them and experience sex and the world as JonF does,

Ellen,
Sex generally involves another person (though it need not) so yes, the morality of sex is more complicated than the morality of solitary activities (though eating at least can involve other participants too, and there's a large body of minor morality-- what we call "etiquette"-- surrounding the proper way to eat in company, serve guests etc.)
If you thought I was arguing that there are no moral considerations in sexual behavior then you barely skimmed my post.
I was not rejecting sexual morality, I was rejecting sexual mysticism (or better: Sexual superstition) whereby sex is held to be so unique and different from everything else we do that it needs a unique body of morals to deal with it, precepts that are derivable from the general principles that guide us in other matters.
IMO, two very broad principles, one from Christ and the other from the Greek philosophers, can guide us in all our dealiongs in and with this world: the Golden Rule and the maxim of Nothing in Excess. I think this holds with sex as with all other matters. We should treat others, sexually, as we would wish to be treated (generally of course, not in regards to every specific matter) so that we do not objectify others as mere tools for our pleasure; and we never let ourselves become a slave to sex and desire. Those are not necessarily easy to follow with perfect fidelity, but I cannot see any reason why any other rule needs to introduced.

Re: I'd rather be wrong about sex but have great books and great sex than right about them and experience sex and the world as JonF does,

You have not the slightest clue as to how I experience the world. (OK, maybe a clue: I am human so my experience will be human) Make no unwarranted assumptions.

Ellen,

I believe JonF is a Christian of a rather traditionalist sort, so I think you rather seriously misinterpret his position. I'm sure he will be along to defend it himself.

Gcubsgo,

Sex as an intimation of mortality....hmmm. I've never thought of it that way, although you certainly can. I would think rather of the deeper meaning of sex as being a foretaste of communion with the divine. we see in the beloved the image of God, and therefore the sexual union is a kind of weak analogy of what the union between God and the believer is to be like, in heaven. See the bridal imagery at the end of the Book of Revelation, etc.

Re: I am not mystifying sex, though I am saying you cannot understand the nature of sex without understanding why it is mystified and what's lost when you demystify it.

By that statement you are now setting sex up as a god, much as the ancient pagans did. But the Gospel tells us that in the beginning there was the Logos, not in the beginning there was the Eros.

Re: For these reasons, one cannot just give the act the meaning one desires

Well, yes and no. Certainly you can't just sit down and say to yourself "My next bedroom romp will mean this." Sex is too emotional for us to be able to dedicate it to this or that the way we might dedicate a book or a song. At the same time though those very emotions can be and very different from person to person. This is one of those areas where it's hopeless arrogance to assume or demand that everyone perceive the world exactly as you do.

Re: I sincerely apologize for that and any offensive I unintentionally gave you.

Your apology is accepted. You're not the only one here who's made some throw-away crack on the internet that's came off differently than intended. We'll not mention it again.
But back to Oedipus a moment: I have always read that play (to me the myth is inseparable from Sophokles' treatment of it) as a pessimistic meditation on the power of fate. Sex and murder strike me as the instruments of this meditation, but not its theme.

Even though you’re debating each other like crazy, those of you who see sex as transcendent and those of you who see it as a mundane biological urge actually share a misconception, it seems to me. Sex is both very serious and very casual.

After all, very much like long-term relationships, sex is both potentially profound and inevitably comprised, in part, of banal and mechanistic moments that need to be accepted and negotiated gracefully for its transcendence to be accessible and sustainable. To say that sexual and emotional relationships that really value intimacy would never require self-conscious application of communication skills, or acceptance of spontaneity, phases, moods that belie your understanding of the relationship, is to idealize it in ways that risk strangling the authentic feeling right out.

Intimacy entails appreciation of solemn, tender moments, and also of the smaller, everyday quirks and surprises that keep the other person distinct, real to us, someone we can’t ever fully know. Sexuality, too, surely works best when there’s enough exploration of erotic feelings and ways of relating to allow some encounters that risk shallowness or other less-than-glorious emotional outcomes in addition to those moments so wonderful that they deepen and remake our bodies and minds. When we value sexuality wisely, we do not hyperventilate about its vicissitudes, or try to suppress them by delaying sex for the perfect relationship or (within one) preserving it for occasions intended to fulfill some reified vision of its sanctified meaning.

A little thought experiment: Imagine suddenly telling a gregarious teenager she can’t talk on the phone or online to her friends, but only in designated settings, say at occasional, adult-sanctioned, quite elegant dinner parties (you’re trying to give her a sense of dignity, and discipline, and besides, some of her friends seem creepy). Now if she actually went along with this (assume she trusts your judgment, or is intimidated by you), surely you can expect to watch her vitality drain away. Why does this happen? Because communing over the superficial, everyday details of living and the strongest bonds are all bound up together. The point isn’t that any one phone conversation is likely to be vital, or that time alone isn’t crucially important in its own way, or that some of her friends might not be ill-chosen; it’s rather that connection accrues meaning mostly by being grounded in the everyday—in the feelings, needs, and idiosyncratic projects of daily life. Sex is somewhat that way. Don’t demand that it be meaningful, or done in a meaningful way—which isn’t to say you shouldn’t talk about it—for in making demands, you kind of ruin its enormous natural potential to be quite meaningful and beautiful, to each of us somewhat differently.

I'm not saying that sex is a god, nor do I mean to separate the biological from the the transcendent in the act.

My point is instead that it is of the essence of our humanity that we necessarily seek to transcend but not escape what is merely biological or animal in us. It is painful and ugly to see someone in thrall to mere biology, that is, to most involuntary bodily processes and passions (and most of all to those that are most involuntary). That's why we cover corpses, cover our bodies, have sex in private, close the bathroom door, cover our mouths when we eat, and (used to) even cover our mouths when we yawn.

This human reaction of covering up makes these animal acts human and in this sense transcends them. We don't entirely escape our animal natures -- in fact, we assent to them -- but what's important is that we do not do so in the same manner as animals but rather in a manner that reflects our humanity as beings conscious of both our animal nature as well as intimations of alternatives to that nature. Clothes cover the visible reminder of our mortality, and fashion and beauty follow; eating changes from animal feeding with table manners and cooking and cuisine. Sex changes from indiscriminate rutting to a freely chosen activity that can provide one with a sort of immortality by linking one with one's past and posterity through the continuation of a family.

For a human to engage in eating or sex merely in their biological senses, that is, just like an animal, is horrifying and sub-bestial depravity. So too is too great a blindness to the animal aspects of these acts and the accompanying sense that one can freely define or ignore these acts. That's why there is a uniquely intense horror connected with transgressions in eating and sex, such as incest and cannibalism. Our humanity is bound up in our transcendence but not the escape of our animal natures in acts such as sex and eating and, to the extent we lapse back or lurch too far forward, we transgress on the bounds of the human.

The tragic and ironic twist is that we not only risk sub-bestial depravity, but in some instances, super-human god-likeness. An example here is organ donation, which is sort of cannibalism that allows us to transcend the limits of our mortality to a greater degree than is natural.

gocubsgo,
I agree that the capacity for self-control in self-expression is important; there are two opposite obstacles to this attainment. One is loss of self in consumption, as in addiction-like behavior with food or other substances, as you describe. The other, which you seem rather to neglect, is the inability to feel passion in the first place, a fearful approach to life that manifests as reserve; moderation-as-coldness; a life of paralysis or else of going through the motions. No one wants their sex life to be the place where they or their partner is perfectly controlled. No one wants to spend time with friends who cannot at least sometimes really laugh, and help us relax enough to do so.

It’s always safe to emphasize the importance of self-control in cultural and, even more, in political debates. The fact remains that even though passion is sometimes scary, it too is part of maturity.

JonF,

I actually agree with most of what you would say- "Do as you would be done by" is a good basis for all moral reasoning in general, about sexuality no less than anything else.

But while the Golden Rule may not demand that we condemn things like birth control or premarital sex, and I don't, it does demand that we condemn prostitution. None of us would like our sister or daughter to be a prostitute. I suspect that behind the veil of ignorance, we would choose to live in a society that prohibited prostitution, in order that it might be our daughter or sister that the State protected from such a horrible fate. Those who are currently prostitutes might differ, of course, but that is because they have already internalized their degradation, and it shouldn't affect our reasoned assessment.