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Staying Power

03 Mar 2008 11:19 am

Tyler Cowen asks an excellent question: Excluding economists (i.e. no Milton Friedman), which 20th century classic of American conservative political thought holds up best?

Cowen suggests that few look all that good in hindsight - "mostly because they underestimated the robustness of the modern world and regarded depravity as more of a problem than it has turned out to be." A slightly different way of looking at the matter is that many of the classics of American conservative political thought were written when Communism seemed to be in the ascendancy worldwide, and when ever-increasing-statism, at the very least, was assumed by nearly every intellectual to be the wave of the future. Small wonder, then, that they have a tendency to view all of Western politics through the lens of creeping Marxism; small wonder, too, that they can seem alarmist and apocalyptic in hindsight, with their anxieties about "the totalitarian implications of the federal school lunch program," and so forth. (If Orwell's 1984 were a treatise of political philosophy, rather than a novel, it would have a similarly fusty and irrelevent air today. All that stuff about boots stomping on the human face forever - so over-the-top!). The fact that a lot of mid-century conservative writing doesn't seem to hold up well today is, at least in part, a testament to how complete the anti-Communist victory has been - and also how unexpected.

As for books and authors that do hold up - well, Cowen says that we can include grumpy European emigres, so I'd have to vote for the collected works of Leo Strauss (you can't pick just one!), who should be required reading whatever you think of his disciples' influence on contemporary politics. Speaking of his disciples, I'd also vote for Allan Bloom's Closing of the American Mind. (Contrary to what you may have heard, the second half of the book is better than the first: The critique of student life is curmudgeonly; the critique of the academy as a whole is brilliant.) A variety of neoconservative works, from Edward Banfield's The Unheavenly City to Charles Murray's Losing Ground to almost anything by James Q. Wilson, all hold up quite well in hindsight, and so do the classic Catholic-neocon books, Richard John Neuhaus's The Naked Public Square and Michael Novak's The Spirit of Democratic Capitalism. (Novak has been rather too carried away over the years by his enthusiasm for the affinity between Christianity and capitalism, but his early writings on the subject are very good.) And while I know Francis Fukuyama no longer calls himself a neocon, his The End of History and the Last Man remains a brilliant diagnosis of the politics of late modernity, however its prognosis ends up being remembered.

Depending on how flexible we're willing to be with the definition of "conservative" on the one hand and "political thought" on the other, I'd also put in for Christopher Lasch (The Revolt of the Elites especially, but also The True and Only Heaven), Philip Rieff (particularly The Triumph of the Therapeutic), Tom Wolfe (both in his nonfiction and in Bonfire of the Vanities), and the young Joan Didion of Slouching Toward Bethlehem and The White Album, before she went east, and downhill.

So that's a start. Meanwhile, Ezra poses the same question for liberal political thinkers.

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Comments (80)

Alastair MacIntyre...

If you're counting Strauss, why not throw in Voegelin?

Alarmism is conservative currency. You might have a point if conservatives today were any less alarmist than their 20th century forbears.

Where is Thomas Sowell? You could throw in Brimelow's Alien Nation too. Defining things more broadly one could also include Pinker's The Blank Slate and Arthur Jensen's g Factor.

If I am not mistaken it took somewhere in the neighborhood of six decades for a modest reading public to come to discover Jane Austen and cherish her work, so I would be dubious about naming any book published after 1950. Still, The Unheavenly City looks like one of the better wagers, as does The White Album. One other possibility would be Thos. Sowell's Vision of the Anointed or its antecedent, A Conflict of Visions. Hans Morganthau's Politics among Nations (first issued in 1948) is arguably 'conservative' in the sense that Pieter Viereck used the term, as would be some of Reinhold Niebuhr's books. What are people's thoughts on Raymond Aron's work?

Sorry, Sowell is an economist, but he writes so much on other topics that it is sometimes hard to remember that.

Good picks, Ross. Also, I would echo the above comments for Eric Voegelin and Alasdair MacIntyre.

I know it lacks Christian chauvinism so it may classify as American conservatism, but Robert Nozick's Anarchy State and Utopia is a damn good book.

Cowen writes, "By stipulation, this universe of books does not include Milton Friedman or pure economics."

Why stipulate that? It seems to exclude an entire area in which conservatives have been very influential and, at least some of the time, correct. I guess the conclusion might be that conservatives are good economists but middling-to-poor political theorists, which would be interesting if it's true.

Alarmism is conservative currency. You might have a point if conservatives today were any less alarmist than their 20th century forbears.

Assuming that change will always be a bad thing, and that the future will therefore always be worse than the present, may just be a byproduct of a conservative outlook. It would be interesting to take a look at mid-century liberal writing to see if there's an opposite problem of being way too optimistic.

I think Dr. Nozick's political philosophy would qualify as 'libertarian' rather than 'conservative'.

I think Dr. Nozick's political philosophy would qualify as 'libertarian' rather than 'conservative'.

Robert Nisbet's "The Quest for Community" still holds up remarkably well. He accurately identifies and analyzes the impulse towards communism, and he points a way forward for our country. His prescription is not dogmatic libertarianism or (modern-day) liberalism, but a third approach--one that avoids grounding itself in the myth of autonomous individualism.

If I could recommend a book by an economist I don't think I would recommend good 'ol Milton as (merely) useful as he is. I would recommend Wilhelm Ropke's "A Humane Economy." Ropke has the good sense not to descend into crass economism unlike some well-known conservative economists.

And three cheers for Alastair MacIntyre even though he won't label himself conservative.

I think the true test of a great thinker is, can this person be respected even by those who disagree with them, as say Burke or Nietzsche or Heidegger are respected.

Strauss and Alastair MacIntyre would fall into that camp but not Charles Murray, Edmund Banfield or Peter Brimelow. You have to be a conservative true believer to take these guys seriously. Thomas Sowell is a liminal figure: he's written some good books (his book on Marx is very sharp) as well as a lot of partisan tripe.

So, which conservative can be taken seriously by non-conservatives? I'd have to say that apart from Strauss and MacIntyre, the one figure that comes to mind is Hugh Kenner, whose book "The Pound Era" is a classic of literary criticism. And if we go beyond the 50 year rule, I'd include the works of T.S. Eliot and the New Critics (many of whom were very right wing). In general, conservatism is stronger as a type of literary sensibility than as a set of policy recommendation.

And while I know Francis Fukuyama no longer calls himself a neocon, his The End of History and the Last Man remains a brilliant diagnosis of the politics of late modernity, however its prognosis ends up being remembered.

By "however its prognosis ends up being remember" I take you to mean "despite the fact that his predictions have proven to be almost comically wrong."

1. Alasdair MacIntyre, After Virtue.
2. Paul Johnson, Modern Times.
3. Hilaire Belloc, The Servile State.
4. M.E. Bradford, A Better Guide Than Reason.
5. T.S. Eliot, Christianity and Culture.
6. Christopher Dawson, Twilight of the Nations.
7. George Grant, The George Grant Reader.
8. E.F. Schumacher, Small is Beautiful.
9. Wendell Berry, The Unsettling of America.
10. Malcolm Muggeridge, Chronicles of Wasted Time.

I meant, of course, Edward Banfield, not Edmund. Sorry.

And I meant, Christopher Dawson's Judgment of the Nations (not, "Twilight"...)

Cowen: ...so yes Road to Serfdom is a contender, even though its main empirical point (socialism leads to loss of political freedom) would seem to be refuted.

Refuted? How so? Any socialist state that I'm aware is an anathema to both political and economic freedom. Jonah Goldberg has recently made a decent case that even liberalism has a rich history of fascism [gasp], properly understood.

Along with The Road to Serfdom, I'd venture Russel Kirk's The Roots of American Order and Buckley's God and Man at Yale

Matthew,

Kudos to you for slipping in Belloc, Schumacher, and Berry!

I'd like to toss in a left-field vote for Jane Jacobs's The Death and Life of Great American Cities, which found its way on to ISI's Fifty Best Works of the Twentieth Century. Not work of political conservatism, it never the less espouses a clear Burkean attitude toward change in the city, and projects incredible skepticism toward the urban planning field (which I, for some strange reason, in no little part thanks to Mrs Jacobs, intend to enter) and government intervention. And she was just so damn right.

Richard Weaver's "The Southern Tradition at Bay" and "Ideas have Consequences".

"Refuted? How so? Any socialist state that I'm aware is an anathema to both political and economic freedom."

Um, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland all have lots of political freedom.

And compare the United States of 1908 to the United States of 2008. In 1908, women couldn't vote, abortion was illegal, African-Americans in the south largely couldn't vote, Jim Crow was the order of the day and you could go to jail for being gay. Also: the state was relatively small. In 2008 the state is a much larger part of the economy and women, African-Americans, and gays are much free-er than before. Therefore the rise of a social democratic state does not lead to less freedom.

The question is poorly formulated as stands.

If by "conservative" you mean a philosophy of governance grounded in individual rights, small government, libertarian principles, then Nozick's Anarchy is indeed a classic. And, depending on how seriously you take these principles (or how historically important you think they are) you can make a good case, in fact, for Rand's novels.

But of course, on this definition of conservatism, MacIntyre's excellent work is clearly not conservative, since it basically impugns capitalism as corrosive and "rights" talk as empty and non-substantive. MacIntyre's project basically calls for a redistributive economic policy. So I never get over the delusion of American conservatives who think that, because he defends the virtues of the Marines and is critical of Rawls, MacIntyre shares their beliefs.


In fact, what Ross's question reveals is that there is a rift in conservatism between those who understand themselves in terms of the free market and small government, and those who view these abstractions as themselves permeated by a liberal individualism that is all the more pernicious for its masked nature.

For "conservatism" to stand for something philosophically, it must either become libertarian or reject wholly the classical liberal premises upon which modern political theory rests.

The liberals were wrong about the emancipation of women. Augusta Jane Evans correctly foretold that the emancipation of woman would lead to the degradation of women and dissolution of society.

Bloom's interpretation of Nietzsche was hideously misinformed.

If we're talking "books that support the conservative cause" rather than "books written by authors who self-identify as conservative", I nominate DP Moynihan.

The Pink Swastika?

I'm puzzled by Cowen's claim that "depravity" turned out not to be such a problem. Huh? Did I somehow entirely misread the 20th century? And while any number of the social-democratic countries in Scandinavia and elsewhere are certainly free (as opposed to "unfree") the large role of the state does pose problems, especially when it comes to allowing speech that public officials think noxious or "hateful." Whether it's pastors being dragged to tribunals in Sweden for making (rather heated) criticisms of homosexuality or Human Rights councils in Canada interrogating what we in the US think of as pretty ordinary political speech, it's no accident that the bounds of freedom in those places is narrower than it is ours.

I'd suggest for your consideration John Finnis's book on natural law.

any chance you could ask Andrew Sullivan?

hopefully it's not just Audacity of Hope, Hopeful Audacity, and 101 Audacious Hopes by Barack Obama...

@ wj:

In fact, what Ross's question reveals is that there is a rift in conservatism between those who understand themselves in terms of the free market and small government, and those who view these abstractions as themselves permeated by a liberal individualism that is all the more pernicious for its masked nature.

For "conservatism" to stand for something philosophically, it must either become libertarian or reject wholly the classical liberal premises upon which modern political theory rests.

But that "rift" (or series of rifts) is as old as the conservative movement itself. Why can't conservatism, like any other -ism, consist in a bunch of different strains, some complementary, some contradictory?

You have to be a conservative true believer to take these guys seriously

You do not have to be a political partisan to take Edward Banfield seriously. The Unheavenly City was a meticulous dissection of the public discourse of the day on urban problems. If there are academic sociologists who prefer to be dismissive of his arguments rather than have a critical engagement with them, that is their problem.

And compare the United States of 1908 to the United States of 2008. In 1908, women couldn't vote, abortion was illegal,

It is part of the addlement of contemporary political culture that people assert that the slaughter going on at Planned Parenthood is an advance for human liberty.

It's tricky assessing whether and how far conservatives' pessimistic predictions "came true". Leftist critic will often argue both that (a) "XY's predictions in the 1960s that legalising jazz music would, by the 1990s, lead to Orgy Sex 101 in the grade schools, have proven to be unfounded alarmism" (subtext: What a bunch of idiots!) and (b) "By the 1980s, the Jazz Legalisation Movement had run into solid opposition and a conservative backlash in many states" (subtext: Boo! Hiss! What a bunch of mean-spirited spoilsports!).

In other words, the "backlash/ counter-reaction" thesis undercuts a lot of the force that the "well, they cried 'wolf' before but that turned out false, so ergo, if they're crying 'wolf' today..." thesis. It may be that there was a wolf, but when someone cried 'wolf', someone else put lead into it, whereas if no one had cried 'wolf', the wolf may have eaten your sheep, your children, and you.

Hoo boy. Compare this:

If there are academic sociologists who prefer to be dismissive of his arguments rather than have a critical engagement with them, that is their problem.

with this:

It is part of the addlement of contemporary political culture that people assert that the slaughter going on at Planned Parenthood is an advance for human liberty.

Sometimes it just parodies itself.

John asks:

Why can't conservatism, like any other -ism, consist in a bunch of different strains, some complementary, some contradictory?


I have no real dog in this fight, but it seems to me that the problem with "conservatism" in 20th century America is that its different strains do not proceed from a shared set of founding principles and then branch off in so many directions. Rather, the different strains of "conservatism" *begin* with fundamentally different understandings of the human person and political life. ONE kind of "conservatism"--the kind that believes in individuals, small government, free markets, rights, etc.--is ACTUALLY premised in classical liberalism; if this kind of conservatism is combined with rear-guard stances on social issues like abortion, gays, etc. then it reveals itself, to my mind at least, to be in fundamental conflict with its own principles.
I think this is the dominant form that conservatism takes in America.

Now, if we were to contrast this sort of conservatism with, say, that of Wendell Berry or Alasdair MacIntyre--both of whom have been claimed in this thread as being "conservative"--then we would find that these figures BEGIN from radically different principles than the former account of "conservatism," and that, to me at least, is a problem.

There seems to me to be no interesting conceptual overlap between the two groups.

Jesus Jiminy Cricket.

I am so tired of conservatives pointing to Alan Bloom's book as having any relevance to today's academy. I guess the fact that it was written, oh 21 years ago, means that it is a recent bestseller to conservatives. To point to something that was reacting to a momentary change in the academy as representing the academy today really strains understanding. To sit back and say that the book is a fair representation of the liberal arts today is ridiculous (I know its worse, you say), and I think that you have to be fairly partisan to maintain that the academy is a sight for liberal indoctrination and place where good morals go to die. I freely admit that the academy lost its way during the 80s and 90s due to bad postmodernism (there is good postmodernism) on the one hand, a strange contortions of PC on the other. I understand that conservatives want to hate the academy but at least acknowledge that Bloom's book is dated in the changes that have happened, and that all the changes he railed against (expanding the canon) have not been a death blow to literature or the humanities.

Lastly someone, anyone, needs to address the fact that Bloom's book has been misused by conservatives to bash the academy in its entirity, something that Bloom would disagree with. This misreading help to create an entire generation of conservatives who were as hyper-sensitive about bias in the classroom, that even when a professor admired something that FDR did was evidence of liberal bias. I think that Bloom's book has been used by conservatives as a way of not dealing with academy at all, sitting back taking pot shots at a handful of professors that said someting stupid once.

PS Bringing up random professors like Ward Churchill or that history you had who loved FDR does not make an effective counter-argument

Re: Um, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland all have lots of political freedom.

None of those are socialist states, albeit the Right often smears them with that label. Socialism is a system where the government owns the means of production. Private enterprise is alive and well in Scandinavia.

Sometimes it just parodies itself.

No parody, Freddie. It is perfectly plain what goes on in those clinics. Very little of the verbiage defending these institutions merits much effort at a response.

Dr. Banfield's take on urban problems is quite another matter.

My point, Art, is that you complain that people don't actually engage argument, then turn around and say that if you support a woman's right to obtain an abortion, you're simply "addled".

Strauss is an interesting choice-- I think you're correct to view him as a conservative thinker even though as you rightly allude to, his so-called proteges among the neoconservative movement completely depart from the implications of his commentary and thought. His most faithful proteges are probably the least well-known-- (take a look at this work, "Empire and the Ends of Politics," for instance) -- those who recognize, as he did, that the greatest minds held empire as a misguided end in itself.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0941051706/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Rather ironic, isn't it, that Strauss's Empire and the Ends of Politics is edited by a "Susan Collins".

"Re: Um, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland all have lots of political freedom."

"None of those are socialist states, albeit the Right often smears them with that label. Socialism is a system where the government owns the means of production. Private enterprise is alive and well in Scandinavia."

The question is not whether you or I would define Sweden as a socialist state; the point is that in "The Road to Serfdom" Hayek argued that even very mild forms of social democracy, such as were being undertaken in England and the United States at that time, would lead to totalitarianism. That's what the title means: you start building a welfare state and you're on the Road to Serfdom.

It's very clear that this point has been disproven: the rise of social democracy actually led to greater individual freedom: as witness the greater freedom of women, African-Americans and gays.

As for Stan's comment: "The liberals were wrong about the emancipation of women. Augusta Jane Evans correctly foretold that the emancipation of woman would lead to the degradation of women and dissolution of society." This is a statement that really speaks for itself.

But Jeet, socialism cannot lead to greater individual freedom since, as we all know, individual freedom is indissociable from free-market capitalism. Or did you not get your pamphlet on Conservative Premises That Must Not Be Questioned.

> "individual freedom is indissociable from free-market capitalism"

The conservative line is that if the government owns all the printing presses, your legal right on paper to freedom of speech is diminished.

This may have appeared plauisble in the 1940s, when both governmental and private employers had much wider discretion (in law and in public acceptance) to fire "troublemaking" employees at will. However, today, firing someone because they expressed dissenting political views would lead to media outrage, FOI requests, and - most significantly - lawsuits, both constitutional and under anti-discrimination statutes.

If anything, government employees (especially at universities) are probably more free today to dump on Uncle Sam than, say, Rupert Murdoch's or Ted Turner's editors are to bite the hand that feeds them. Private employers have a substantially reduced opportunity to sack troublemakers, and government employers have ane extremely reduced opportunity to sack troublemakers.

Since I don't identify (possibly to the surprise of some present) as a conservative, I am rather skeptical when the Buckleyites warn that freedom of speech is worthless if the government owns all the printing presses but scoff at the Left's point that freedom of speech is worthless if a few tycoons own all the printing presses instead. A choice between Leviathan and a few oligarchs is unappealing, as shown by Russia since 1991 (or 1917 for that matter).

Matthew,

E.F. Schumacher most certainly didn't self-identify as a conservative, and his book is very popular among at least certain strains of the Left. I mean, I'm on the left- in a great many issues on the far Left- and I draw lots of inspiration from Schumacher. DO you remember what he said about capitalism?

I haven't read Wendell Berry, but my understanding is that he wouldn't really self identify as a conservative either, and there are lots of people on the left who would draw inspiration from him as well. Nor would Alasdair MacIntyre, who still considers himself a socialist of sorts, doesn't he?

I suppose it depends on your definition, of course...I would call anyone who is sufficiently anti-capitalist, and in favor of at least some measure of social control of the means of production, to be on the Left in a broad sense. Also, wasn't the list supposd to be confined to Americans?

Jeet, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland are all in the top fifth of the Index of Economic Freedom. None of them go in for any serious sort of a planned or command economy, which is what Hayek talked about. Socialism by definition is government control and ownership of industry and commerce.

In his chapter, Individualism and Collectivism Hayek writes:

"In this sense socialism means the abolition of private enterprise of the means of production and the the creation of a planmed economy [emphasis] Hayek] in which the entrepreneur is replaced by a central planning body."

Scandinavia's social democratic or welfare states don't come close to socialism.

Hector,

You raise some reasonable points.

It is perhaps most difficult to label Fritz Schumacher as a conservative. However, ultimately, his beliefs led him to and further developed from his faith in the Catholic Church, one of the more important conservative institutions in the history of mankind. Moreover, you speak fallaciously -- not at all, I believe, with intent to do so -- by implying that conservative at all requires capitalism. I would hardly call, say, Belloc and Chesterton liberals in the contemporary sense, and they wrote extensively against capitalism -- and socialism -- espousing the same "Small is Beautiful" ethos of Schumacher. Russell Kirk hardly fits the profile of the capitalist, either, and he ranks amongst the fathers of intellectual American conservatives.

You are right to note, as I failed to recall, that he was not an American.

Berry presents a problem, too, though less of one, I suggest, than Schumacher. Underlying his philosophy is a rejection of progress, of the Whig interpretation. He espouses skepticism toward technology, mechanization, and urbanization, as well as, again, the "Small is Beautiful" ethic. Additional to this, he identifies as a white, Protestant American.

Though a graduate of Notre Dame, where MacIntyre now teaches, I, most regrettable, can offer little insight regarding him. As you note, though, the matter of semantics comes into play here.

Best,
NPO


I suppose it depends on your definition, of course...I would call anyone who is sufficiently anti-capitalist, and in favor of at least some measure of social control of the means of production, to be on the Left in a broad sense. Also, wasn't the list supposd to be confined to Americans?

The problem here is that "the Left" has become, in the US (and to a considerable extent Europe) conflated with social liberalism and the "libertine" program. This isn't a completely new phenomenon -- Chesterton is in this line that would include (I think) Berry, Macintyre, and Schumacher. These four may have varying degrees of trust of "the state" (Chesterton's was, really, quite low except in a little England John Bull without the Boer War sense), but all are (1) anti-utilitarians, anti-hedonists, essentially religious in their moral programme, and (to varying degrees) hostile to the sexual revolution in most of its forms and (2) hostile to the effects and valuations of large-scale capitalism. I think this applies to the agrarians by and large, too. These people ARE, in my view conservatives -- the conservation of the wisdom and transcendent order of the past, the "democracy of the dead" or the understanding of virtue, is their guiding principle.

I wouldn't read all capitalists out of "true" conservatism, of course -- Buckley and others are capitalists in part because they see a connection between government's power and the other effects even more pernicious than those arising from capitalism.

At a larger level, it isn't surprising if (which I'm not sure) conservatism produces fewer grand enduring non-economic works per century. Liberals must constantly re-invent the world, because devaluation and rejection of the past is, in some sense, a guiding principle of the liberalism I am most hostile to -- conservatives, on the other hand, will tend more towards Kirk/Eliot style recapitulation of thoughts that in many cases extend back in time to Aristotle, the Church, Aquinas, Burke, Rome, or "the common sense of mankind." This is why we are conservatives. A conservative John Rawls is a damn suspicious character, ain't he?

I suppose it depends on your definition, of course...I would call anyone who is sufficiently anti-capitalist, and in favor of at least some measure of social control of the means of production, to be on the Left in a broad sense. Also, wasn't the list supposd to be confined to Americans?

The problem here is that "the Left" has become, in the US (and to a considerable extent Europe) conflated with social liberalism and the "libertine" program. This isn't a completely new phenomenon -- Chesterton is in this line that would include (I think) Berry, Macintyre, and Schumacher. These four may have varying degrees of trust of "the state" (Chesterton's was, really, quite low except in a little England John Bull without the Boer War sense), but all are (1) anti-utilitarians, anti-hedonists, essentially religious in their moral programme, and (to varying degrees) hostile to the sexual revolution in most of its forms and (2) hostile to the effects and valuations of large-scale capitalism. I think this applies to the agrarians by and large, too. These people ARE, in my view conservatives -- the conservation of the wisdom and transcendent order of the past, the "democracy of the dead" or the understanding of virtue, is their guiding principle.

I wouldn't read all capitalists out of "true" conservatism, of course -- Buckley and others are capitalists in part because they see a connection between government's power and the other effects even more pernicious than those arising from capitalism.

At a larger level, it isn't surprising if (which I'm not sure) conservatism produces fewer grand enduring non-economic works per century. Liberals must constantly re-invent the world, because devaluation and rejection of the past is, in some sense, a guiding principle of the liberalism I am most hostile to -- conservatives, on the other hand, will tend more towards Kirk/Eliot style recapitulation of thoughts that in many cases extend back in time to Aristotle, the Church, Aquinas, Burke, Rome, or "the common sense of mankind." This is why we are conservatives. A conservative John Rawls is a damn suspicious character, ain't he?

Mr. Origer,

I'm an Anglican, not a Catholic....but from my understanding of what the official Catholic church position is (and probably other churches too) it considers itself neither a conservative nor a radical institution. Or rather, it sees conservatism and radicalism both as movements which tend to try and isolate one aspect of Christian truth at the expense of the rest....political heresies, if you will. Would that be fair to say? I think it's certainly fair to say that that's the view that Schumacher, for one, would have taken of Christian morality in general. I would agree with him in that I would see liberal capitalism, Marxism, and fascism as movements which owe their strength to what they draw from Christian values and their weakness to what they reject.

When I was in the Peace Corps a couple years ago, Schumacher's book was very popular among other Peace Corps volunteers. That is _not_ a conservative crowd, to say the least. Schumacher considered himself a socialist of sorts, I believe, and the 'intermediate technology, anti-globalization, syndicalist ideas that he sets forth seem to be much more popular today on the Left than on the Right.

I'm also not sure it's always productive to try to distinguish Left and Right based on whether they seek to resurrect the past or not. Most left wing revolutionary movements have traditionally invoked some ideal of the lost pre-modern golden age- whether it be Rousseau's state of nature, Marx and Engels' primitive communism, Margaret Mead's Samoa, or the Inca Empire that today's South American radical Left venerates. Who was it that said that any movement that is sufficiently reactionary in theory becomes objectively revolutionary in practice.

Marquis, how would you assess Simone Weil, as a thinker of the Right or the Left? If you consider all Counter-Englightenment and anti-modernist thought automatically on the Right, then you run into the problem that Rousseau, probably the founder of the modern Left, considered himself anti-modern and counter-Enlightenment too.

Hector,

Again, I believe that you raise an objection most worth of consideration. I shall respond then as a faithful Catholic, doing my best to explain as I understand, acknowledging, of course, that I am in no position to speak officially on behalf of the Church.

In the manner in which you frame the terms conservatism and radicalism, I wholly agree with your assessment that She sees Herself as neither conservative nor radical. I often grow flustered myself upon witnessing those who deem themselves specifically to be conservative Catholics and then generally embrace free market capitalism with little regard for Catholic Social Teaching, that is, those who celebrate orthodoxy vis-à-vis the celebration of the Mass, continued limitations on entrance into the priesthood, and sexual morality (I side with them on all of these mattes, though, for full disclosure, I should admit to a slight degree of libertarianism with respect to the latter, at least in the political realm.), but who ignore another significant aspect of the Church's teachings. I disapprove equally of those who take the opposite approach, protesting against unjust labor practices but supporting, e.g., abortion on demand.

In describing the Church as conservative force, I perhaps mis-spoke, though I suspect that you possess some understanding of what I meant, namely that the Church historically has acted as a impediment, or at least has attempted to, against progress for the sake of progress, demanding evidence that new innovation serves the good of man and God, rather than, e.g., "liberating" science from metaphysical restraints or serving to create, in essence, a capitalist class and a servile class.

I find little wherewith to disagree in your succinct analysis of the shortcomings and strong points of socialism and fascism.

It is true, indeed, that, Patrick Buchanan and the Chronicles cohort notwithstanding, few modern day conservatives of note share in the rejection of the globalist ideas that typically are questions only from the Left. Rod Dreher and the "Crunchy Cons" present a perhaps less well-known example, too. This is not only true, but, in my estimation, rather dismal, evidence of a failure of conservatives to recognize the importance of the "permanent things" whereof Kirk eloquently wrote.

Because I lack time presently, I shall refrain from commenting on your remarks about distinguishing based on seeking to resurrection of the past. Suffice it to say that although I find your argument in part compelling, I am not wholly convinced. Should I find time later, I would gladly elucidate my thoughts on the matter.

Also, please: My father -- or grandfather -- is Mr Origer; I'm just Nathan.

Best,
NPO

Hector, et al:

I preferred to expand the list to Anglo-American, believing this is more of single kind of tradition. Continental thinkers really would be out of bounds.

And my picks (aside from Johnson, who despite his neo-conservatism, wrote Modern Times in part to show the corruption and sophistry of the U.N.) intend to reflect a more PALEO-conservative perspective. I find it consistent with true conservatism to be suspicious and critical of much that is in neo-liberal economics, as well as 19th century capitalism. Agrarianism, anti-hedonism, the belief in an objective moral order, the importance of family, tradition, ritual, tribe--these are all conservative impulses. Finally, all the authors are antagonistic toward statism--sadly, contemporary conservatism has begun to slide into that morass.

Also: MacIntyre is a conservative in the sense of rejecting the modern project. In his mind, Locke and Burke are sides of the same coin. Marx (at least, the Marx of the Theses on Feuerbach) is in his opinion, more the true conservative as well--in as much as he sought to contest modernity from outside that tradition. As MacIntyre said: liberals and conservatives today are all really liberals. There are few true conservatives (i.e. Aristoteleans) out there any more. The litmus test would be, do you think the modern nation state is morally tenable?

Mathew,

Huh? If Marx (for whom I have some qualified sympathies) is in any sense a conservative, then hasn't 'conservative' been defined so broadly as to lose all meaning? Isn't modern Anglo-American conservatism defined pre-eminently in opposition to Marx?

I would disagree with you that agrarianism, anti-hedonism, and belief in objective moral order are necessarily 'conservative' ideas. _Anti-liberal_ ideas, perhaps, but they have traditionally been popular with radical critics of liberalism as well as conservative ones. One can be anti-liberal without being conservative. Were the Russian SR's, an agrarian movement by definition, conservatives? (Not to mention other left-wing peasant movements particularly in Latin America).

As for an objective moral order, as much as Marx himself claimed that objective morality didn't exist, it seems unlikely that he believed this at a deep level. To strive for socialist revolution at great personal and social cost only really makes sense if there is some absolute human nature that you believe would be better fulfilled in a socialist society than in a capitalist one- else, why bother striving for the revolution at all?

Your limiting the list to Anglo-American thinkers also seems like it distorts and narrows the field. There haven't really been that many full-blooded reactionary or radical thinkers in the Anglo-American tradition, with the exception of the odd William Butler Yeats on the right or Eric Hobsbawm on the left.


The Marquis of Carabas did a great service by bringing in Chesterton & rightfully placing him as an important conservative voice against the ravages of modernity.

Chesterton is in that very line that would include Macintyre, Schumacher, Alastair MacIntyre., Christopher Lasch, (I thought of him immediately upon reading this post)

His understanding of the Human Person was prescient enough to say in June of 1926.

"For the next great heresy is going to be simply an attack on morality; and especially on sexual morality. And it is coming, not from a few Socialists surviving from the Fabian Society, but from the living exultant energy of the rich resolved to enjoy themselves at last, with neither Popery nor Puritanism nor Socialism to hold them back….. The madness of tomorrow is not in Moscow, but much more in Manhattan."

G.K Chesterton June 19, 1926
(They call him the "Prophet of Common Sense")

Rod Blaine, sorry for not being more clear-- Susan Collins and Devin Stauffer, authors of Empire and the Ends of Politics that I referenced, are proteges of Strauss, through Christopher Bruell, a Straussian professor at Boston College. And my point is mainly that these two Poli Sci scholars are more faithful to Strauss than the more notable "neo-cons," that we commonly hear about as the architects of American war-mongering and imperialism. I think a very good argument can be made that Strauss would not have supported imperialism or the Iraq War as an act of imperialism. I would further argue that Strauss was a conservative thinker to the extent that he had a proper understanding of the limits of politics and the relationship between "the city and man."

"1. Alasdair MacIntyre, After Virtue.
2. Paul Johnson, Modern Times.
3. Hilaire Belloc, The Servile State.
4. M.E. Bradford, A Better Guide Than Reason.
5. T.S. Eliot, Christianity and Culture.
6. Christopher Dawson, Twilight of the Nations.
7. George Grant, The George Grant Reader.
8. E.F. Schumacher, Small is Beautiful.
9. Wendell Berry, The Unsettling of America.
10. Malcolm Muggeridge, Chronicles of Wasted Time."

Fewer than half of these people are even Americans. Claiming Macintyre as a conservative is pretty rich. Conservatives can use his arguments to good effect, to be sure. But he has more use for Marx than he does for "conservatism".

Allan Bllom is also a strange choice (by Douthat). He is surely some kind of a conservative. But "American conservative"? Strauss warmed up to America, but didn't really care for the stuff that American conservatives care about, and only dabbled in the founders. Bloom was sort of a closet Nietzschean who bashed Nietzsche (just like Strauss was an admirer of Weber who pretended to bash Weber), and a conservative who thought that the American project is fundamentally flawed. If you look at Blooms actual views it's as odd as American conservatives championing De Maistre or Schmitt.

It's telling that we're debating whether a lot of these thinkers were conservative. No one would doubt that Thatcher is a conservative, but she claimed that her whole programme was Hayek. And yet Hayek denied being a conservative. The same goes for conservatives who love MacIntyre, Lasch, etc. There is a reason for this. "Conservative" is a good description of many pieces of intelligent thought. But it's not a very good first principle, in the way liberalism is.

Colatina:

"Conservative" is a good description of many pieces of intelligent thought. But it's not a very good first principle, in the way liberalism is.

I think it's arguable that this is precisely what classifies actual conservatism, vs. agendas and men who happen to align themselves, in the moment's struggle of history, with conservatives: conservatism itself is not a first principle. It is a habit of mind, but it draws its first principles not from itself (which it might see as eating its own navel, to mix a metaphor), but from other things, primarily, for the kinds of conservatism with real value and importance, human nature itself and the transcendent order of God. Conservatism pretending to be a first principle, a "new thing under the sun" like liberalism, would be highly un-conservative. Again, the best conservatives (who are, by this view, as in Kirk's "the conservative mind", a motley crew) draw their first principles from things other than "conservatism" per se: they draw them from, say, Augustine's "politics" in The City of God, or the things Samuel Johnson relied upon. Conservatism doesn't want to be a first principle, it already has principles, thank you very much, and they are often partly of an only semi-political kind. This, again, I claim, is why you don't have or want a "conservative Rawls." And why Macintyre, even when he was writing Christianity and Marxism (or is it Marxism and Christianity?) was a "conservative."

Marquis,

It seems to me that anyone who writes a book called 'Christianity and Marxism' rules themselves out, ab initio, from being considered a conservative. I mean, _I_ might write such a book (if I were a historian or a political philosopher) and I might respect and give credence to someone who did, but then I'm not a conservative and never claimed to be one. I mean, hell, MacIntyre claimed to be a 'revolutionary Aristotelian'. If American conservatism means anything, it means hostility to revolution, Marxism, and anything resembling either one.

The _City of God_, again, can serve as an inspiration to conservatives. Certainly it demonstrates part of the reason that a _perfect_ society on Earth is probably impossible, at least until the second coming. But equally so, it can serve as an inspiration to radicals, because of the way it uncompromisingly argues that _all_ earthly states and orders of society are essentially evil and immoral. Cromwell probably drew inspiration from the _City of God_ (certainly other Puritans considered themselves neo-Augustinians) and Cromwell is _definitively_ the first modern revolutionary Left politician.

If someone like Schumacher, or MacIntyre, or Simone Weil, could show up on my list of left-wing thinkers as well as your list of right-wing thinkers, doesn't that demonstrate a problem with one of our typologies?


...or both of your typologies? Come on, let's be honest. Left and right, liberal and conservative--these aren't exhaustive categories. In fact, these are categories that often overlap, so it should not be surprising if a leftist's book list looks similar in some ways to a conservative's list.

Hector,

I will agree with Nathan: it means that most thinkers are not all of one piece. I actually don't know where Weil would show up for me -- I haven't read enough of her work (certainly not her more political work) to decide if she has what I would consider the "marks" of conservatism in some aspects.

I agree that you're right to note that MacIntyre's revolutionary tendencies are problematic in some ways. But there is a conservative element in his thought -- perhaps it's a problem of words, and where I'm coming from. I liked Bill Buckley, but I'm more in the line of Catholic reactionary than mainstream American conservative. I am ok with running with the American conservative crowd, since it's the only team in town that plays by any of my rules, but in one sense the conservatism I prefer is fairly revolutionary: it rejects large portions of the Enlightenment project and the liberal order as fundamentally anti-Christian. At some level, I just don't quite believe Neuhaus and John Courtney Murray -- it's what we've got for now, but the liberal democratic order as it stands, without fundamental changes in its cultural underpinnings, is hostile to many important things, and founded on ideas about the world that aren't really true. I'd make Samuel Johnson dictator before I'd make Milton Friedman dictator.

Marquis,

If your political views tend towards the Counter-Enlightenment, you should read some Simone Weil....you would probably like her. She is another thinker who is hard to categorize as Left or Right....I would ultimately say she was more on the Left than on the Right though, largely because she chose (after much internal conflict) to side with the Spanish Republic rather than Franco in one of the most explicitly ideological conflicts of the time (she went to the extent of joining an anarchist batallion). Where a person self-identifies is important to me in terms of where I identify them. I'm pretty sure that Schumacher, MacIntyre, and Simone Weil identified more with the left than the right. I should read more MacIntyre, for my part.

But really, is it true that the Republican party plays by your rules in any deep sense? With the exception, presumably, of the abortion issue? Is it true that George Bush is a better reflection of Counter-Enlightenment values than, say, James Langevin?

Has anyone here actually read The Unheavenly City by Banfield? If you want to immerse yourself in public policy debates from more than thirty years ago, go ahead. It has not aged well at all, and anyone who says so clearly has never picked it up.

bjk,
I read the revised edition published in 1974. It had aged well enough that I could use it as a source for a paper I was writing more than twenty years later.

Immersing yourself in public policy debates from thirty years ago can be instructive because these debates maintain certain features which abide even when the topic of discussion in modified. That aside, many of the challenges faced in 1969 are still with us.

But really, is it true that the Republican party plays by your rules in any deep sense?

Of course not. But more-so than the Democrats. Look, from my POV both parties are on the same line with respect to the Enlightenment problems, and both are essentially fully supportive of the aspects of full-blown capitalism I dislike, differing primarily in the TYPE of state-large-business chumminess they support (hell, I sound like a Nader voter for a second there). That is, the things I'd like to change are not in play by either party, in any way, oddball freaks with no real power such as (some ideas of) Ron Paul excepted.

However, the Republicans are at least on paper pro-life, are at the very least less committed to the total dissolution of all sexual restraint and moral order, and try not to put judges who make mass murder of the unborn as the absolute constitutional law of the land their one shining star of guidance (and more generally don't incline to use judicial power to impose the "values" of the elites I loathe on the entire country). Moreover, given the Enlightenment bargain and the resulting fact that state power will, almost always, in domestic matters, be used AGAINST good things, the Republicans are slightly less aggressive in the expansion of the welfare state, which is run by people whose moral agenda is not bloody well mine. There's not much to choose from, but the foreign policies aren't that different, and while the Republicans are somewhat more hostile to constitutional civil liberties in the name of security, they are also somewhat less driven in large part by people fundamentally hostile to all Western Christian values, enamored of "difference" to the point of idiocy.

In other words, the Republicans have little to offer me, but really, Hector -- what do the Democrats have to offer me at all? I don't like their economic policies (you do) -- I see them simply as leaning more towards a slightly more state-oriented version of the same order as the Republicans.

More centrally, speaking practically, Langevin may be a very nice fellow with good views, but as a party the Democrats are essentially hostile to his pro-life views, and so long as the Democrats have power, the chances of any change in abortion policy in this country (for the good) are very very low. A vote for a Democratic congressman, in practice, ends up being a pro-choice vote, whether the individual is, or not, due to power given a majority party -- and the Democratic party, make no mistake, is more committed to abortion-on-demand than to almost any other value it espouses. Certainly the Democrats are more dedicated to abortion than they are to any particular economic program.

Marquis,

Is the mainstream Democratic party really committed to the 'wholesale destruction of sexual restraint and moral order'? I don't deny that there is a significant number of people out there who would like a swinger's club and a gay bath-house on every corner, blow-job parties for middle school girls, legalized polygamy and incest, and I don't know what else. Bertrand Russell's rationalized utopia meets Malinowski's Trobriand Islands. But I don't think that such people make up the bulk of Democratic politicians, and much less so the bulk of Democratic voters.

How many mainstream Democratic politicians do you think there are who think that gay bath houses, swinger's clubs, and high school orgies are a good (or even tolerable) thing? Even in the bluest of blue states, _most_ Democrats, with the exception of a few intellectuals drunk on the power of their own reason, would probably not approve of such things.

On abortion, yes, you have a point. But I don't think any change for the better is going to come under a Republican president either. Bush had a Republican House and Senate for quite a few years, and no progress was made. No progress will be made until we make more of an effort to convert more Americans to our way of thinking.

Marquis,

Just out of curiosity, what would your ideal society look like? Feel free to name an actually existing historical regime if you want to, or not. I don't know that _I_ could name an actually existing regime as a model for the type of society I would like, certainly not in all particulars, although I think I once made some favorable noises about the Velasco regime in Peru.

Bush had a Republican House and Senate for quite a few years, and no progress was made.

I dunno, I think Alito + Roberts was probably pretty important progress. The hearts and minds argument is much harder with Roe v. Wade making it seem as if the much-vaunted CONSTITUTION is enamored of abortion.

I like this and that about various regimes and societies, but I'm pretty much dedicated to anti-utopianism as a first principle. I think Chesterton adulated the Middle Ages overmuch, and many conservatives are prone to pick some past period, abstract out X, Y, and Z, and pretend it was great. The Kingdom of Heaven is not on this earth, and I mostly just hope to push things to being a little better here and there where they are obviously bad, and letting little communities and lives go along as they will, good or bad in many cases, unless really really bad.

And no, of course most Democratic voters (who don't matter) aren't hedonist fools, and most politicians aren't. But every time a point AGAINST sexual restraint and decency somehow becomes popular or beloved-by-elites enough to be a likely policy, the people who fuel the _ideas_ of the Democratic party will be in favor of whatever is more libertine. This will be scaled back some due to political constraints, but it is where the animating force comes from. So any actual positive developments are out of the questions, while the Republicans might get drunk and make some kind of half-hearted censorship of outright pornography efforts, or something.

"Bush had a Republican House and Senate for quite a few years, and no progress was made." Hector

That's debatable. They did get the partial-birth abortion act and restrictions on federal funding of stem-cell research. These might not have much affect on abortion overall, but they are some kind of victory for that side.

Both potential nominees on the Democratic side are darlings of NARAL Pro-Choice America, Planned Parenthood, and Population Connection (formerly ZPG). Furthermore neither was much in line with "Democrats for Life of America." The DfLA goes by more of a "Consistent Life ethic" philosophy. (No abortion, no euthanasia, no death penalty, no unjust wars, help those suffering from genocide, etc) Biden seems to get the most positive reviews from "Democrats for Life", but the site has not updated for months and they may be defunct for all I know.

http://www.democratsforlife.org/documents_etc/DFLA_2008_Pres_Candidates.pdf

Exempting Darfur issues Clinton and Obama are not much in-line with them at all. If I read it right they both favor unrestricted abortion and physician-assisted suicide.

The one year I find them giving rankings "Democrats for Life of America" gave most Democrats zero.

http://votesmart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?r_id=3009

They count 30 as "all stars", but some of these are no longer in office or have shifted. Of those that are here's some who still do poorly with NARAL.

Rep. Jerry Costello of Illinois
Rep. Lincoln Davis of Tennessee
Rep. Mike McIntyre of North Carolina
Rep. Jim Marshall of Georgia
Rep. Alan Mollohan of West Virginia
Senator Benjamin Nelson of Nebraska
Rep. Solomon Ortiz of Texas
Rep. Collin Peterson of Minnesota
Rep. Nick Joe Rahall of West Virginia
Rep. Ike Skelton of Missouri
Rep. Gene Taylor of Mississippi

Langevin generally got low from NARAL. but apparently got a 100 from then in 2007. Still this could be a misprint or they were going by things not directly related to Pro-Choice. (National Right to Life marked people off if they supported McCain-Feingold)

On conservative books I don't read enough politics to judge. Some of the best might be more cultural than political. Zora Neale Hurston was an anti-Communist supporter of Robert Taft, but I'm not sure how conservative "Their Eyes were Watching God" can be considered. Most of my history reading has been international rather than US based.

Thomas R.,

Langevin appears to be a garden variety moderate pro-lifer. In favor of emergency contraception and stem-cell research, but generally pro-life on most other issues (probably in accordance with most moderately pro-life Americans). He appears to have a 73% rating from National Right to LIfe and a 10% rating from NARAL. If the 100% rating from NARAL is true (which I doubt) it probably reflects his opinion on stem cell research. He's disabled of course which probably makes him more sensitive to arguments about the inherent value of human life.

One of the two Congressmen representing the city of Boston, ironically, is pro-life and had a zero rating from NARAL in 2004. It's not all Midwestern and Southern Democrats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Lynch_(politician)


There do seem to be more great right wing writers who are literary intellectuals rather than social scientists and historians- approaching things from more a cultural than a political perspective. Eliot, Dostoyevsky, Chesterton, Yeats, etc.

There do seem to be more great right wing writers who are literary intellectuals rather than social scientists and historians- approaching things from more a cultural than a political perspective. Eliot, Dostoyevsky, Chesterton, Yeats, etc.

Properly so, if you ask me. Social science has done some valuable things, but if (from my view) you want to find really really really wrongheaded (and sometimes deeply unpleasant) people, look to your social sciences departments. I'm not so sure about historians -- seems to me there are a number of right-leaners there.

On second thought, I'm not sure if you might consider Yeats a conservative intellectual from your perspective. He appears to have favored a more liberal approach to sexuality:
"Marriage is not to us [Protestants] a Sacrament, but, upon the other hand, the love of a man and woman, and the inseparable physical desire, are sacred."
On the other hand, to me, something like 'The Second Coming' seems like a definitive (and memorable) right wing anathema against the Left, popular mass movements, and the modern age in general. what do you think....was Yeats a conservative or not?

There are some right wing historians, but there are also tons of Marxist and radical historians, probably more than you would find in any other discipline.

I don't know if he was a "conservative" but Yeats was Of The Right. Doesn't make him right about everything (heck, anything, other than how to write poetry).

I think history tends to come with heavy-duty politics in general, and the woesome trend of the modern world is to make those beliefs radical and leftist (even to having spades of Marxist historians after Marxism, proper or modified, as a historical view is clearly nonsense).

A word on conservative thought & Christopher Lasch & other apostates
Colatina (wrote)
“Claiming Macintyre as a conservative is pretty rich. Conservatives can use his arguments to good effect, to be sure. But he has more use for Marx than he does for "conservatism".

“One great writer that conservatives often claim, but liberals have more right to, is Christopher Lasch.”

Some of conservatism greatest minds started off as leftists. This is not unlike converts making the best Catholics. Often these apostates of the left are disowned by their fellow (former) leftists until such time when conservatives adopt them & their writings as their own.

A prime example of this is George Orwell, another is Allan Bloom as is Macintyre & Lasch.

One of several strategies is to site their early work as an indictor their “real” though. Except of coarse it was that very intellectual journey that brought them towards conservatism and/or characterizes their thought as conservative. Once again I find myself agreeing with “conservatism itself is not a first principle. It is a habit of mind, but it draws its first principles not from itself , but from other things, primarily, for the kinds of conservatism with real value and importance, human nature itself and the transcendent order of God.”

A highly recommend all his work. The Culture of Narcissism (about the 60’s me generation) as well as The Revolt of the Elites & the Betrayal of Democracy – are salient and informative cultural criticism that will help any reader better understand the dire situation our common culture has arrived at. On that score most important would be the work Haven in a Heartless World: The Family Besieged by Christopher Lasch

To help get an idea of what a cogent and prolific thinker Lash was… & how it would be extremely strained to classify his work as liberal or leftist along todays continuum allow me to quote from a review of his work Women and the Common Life: Love, Marriage, and Feminism in the January 19, 1997 NYT by Andrew Delbanco.

''Women and the Common Life'' is vintage Lasch. It continues his assault on the culture of consumption, and extends it to feminist and academic critics who claim to stand outside and above it. It carries forward his lifelong theme that each generation must provide for its children not chiefly in the material sense but in the sense of bequeathing to them a structure of thought and feeling through which a meaningful life may be achieved. As long ago as ''The New Radicalism in America, 1889-1963'' (1965), Lasch concluded that ''at the end of the 19th century, middle-class parents found themselves unable any longer to explain to their children why their way of life was important or desirable.'' Thirty years later, in an essay in ''Women and the Common Life'' on the spiritual deprivations of suburban life, he returns to the same theme: ''how to revive a sense of vocation in a society destitute of any sense of common purpose.''

Indeed marriage is one of these bequests of “structure of thought and feeling through which a meaningful life may be ach