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In Defense of the Freak Show

21 Apr 2008 11:30 am

John Harris and Jim Vandehei do a fine job of demolishing one narrative about the Debate That Everyone Hated last week in Philadelphia - namely, the notion that there was something particularly unfair to Barack Obama about the line of questioning the moderators took. But the larger critique - embodied in posts like this one, from Andrew - isn't that the debate was unfair to Obama; it's that it was unfair to the viewing public. According to this line of argument, in an election as important as this one (though really in any Presidential election, presumably), it's a dereliction of duty for the press to focus on issues that don't relate directly to policy questions - to obsess over Obama's relationship to Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers, for instance, or his decision not to wear a flag pin, or his comments about working-class voters, when there are serious matters like war and peace, health care and the environment, the deficit and the economy that deserve to be debated.

One possible response to this critique was ventured by David Brooks, on the night of the debate. He argued that reporters have an obligation to ask about the "freak show" issues - as Harris and Mark Halperin famously dubbed them - because voters care about them.

I understand the complaints, but I thought the questions were excellent. The journalist’s job is to make politicians uncomfortable, to explore evasions, contradictions and vulnerabilities. Almost every question tonight did that. The candidates each looked foolish at times, but that’s their own fault.

We may not like it, but issues like Jeremiah Wright, flag lapels and the Tuzla airport will be important in the fall. Remember how George H.W. Bush toured flag factories to expose Michael Dukakis. It’s legitimate to see how the candidates will respond to these sorts of symbolic issues.

I take his point, but I think it's worth mounting a more vigorous defense of talking about issues like the Obama-Wright connection or Hillary’s fibs about Tuzla or even the essentially absurd flag-on-the-lapel controversy. I don't think these topics matter just because they’re "symbolic"; I think they matter because they’re personal, because they tell us something (or seem to tell us something) about the psychology of the person we're being asked to vote for. Now, obviously the mainstream press tends to overplay the personal issues, because they make for better theater and higher ratings and all the rest, and because television hosts, in particular, seem to live in terror of finding themselves too deep in the policy weeds. And just as obviously, these issues make easy fodder for partisan attacks, which is why they're so often whipped up by the noise machines of the right and (increasingly) the left. But that doesn't mean that they don't or shouldn't matter.

Why do they matter? Well, because picking a man (or woman) to hold the office of the Presidency is an awesome responsibility: By voting to elevate Barack Obama or John McCain or anyone to the White House, you’re voting to vest an immense amount of responsibility in a single individual; indeed, you're essentially voting to grant them the sort of powers that the monarchs of old could only dream about. Yes, of course, Presidents are restrained by Congress and the Courts and the Constitution (well, sometimes), but there’s still a very real sense in which we’re electing a temporary king. And what was true in the court of European rulers way back when is likewise true for modern American Presidents: The personal is political. By this I mean that when we elect a new chief executive, we aren’t just electing to live with their policy positions. We’re deciding to live with their personalities – their sexual appetites and Daddy issues, their spouses and their friends, their religious beliefs and their psychodramas – for four or eight long years. (Or more, in our dynastic age, since we’ve been in Bushworld since 1988, and Clintonland since ’92.)

Now of course if it’s sometimes hard to tell how a candidate will govern from his policy positions (does anyone want to hazard a guess about how Obama and Clinton will actually handle the mess in Iraq?), it’s even tougher to tell exactly how a candidate’s personality and choice of friends and all the rest will effect his governance. But this doesn't mean that we can just bracket anything that isn't self-evidently "substantive" and that partakes of "the boomer culture wars" as irrelevant to the campaign. We're coming off a Presidency, after all, which has inspired Entire books arguing, not-implausibly, that George W. Bush's tangled relationship with his father and family had more to do with how he ended up running American foreign policy than anything he said on the campaign trail against McCain and Al Gore. And that's just the most obvious recent example. Take much smaller "freak show" issues from the 2000 campaign, like Bush's controversial speech at Bob Jones University, or his famous inability to pass a pop quiz on the names of world leaders. At the time, both were dismissed by Republicans as trumped-up issues, just as today's Obamaphiles dismiss most of the controversies that came up in last week's debate. But if you were a voter or pundit trying to judge whether Bush would attempt to integrate conservative Christians into his administration, or keep them at arm's length as his father did (and Bob Dole presumably would have), the contrast between Dubya's BJU appearance and John McCain's "agents of intolerance" riff looks pretty telling in hindsight. And I'm sure you can think of your own examples of moments from the Bush Presidency that make that silly, meaningless stunt of a pop quiz look, well, at least mildly relevant to his governance.

Or cast your mind further back, to 1992, and consider something as seemingly insubstantial as the controversy over Bill Clinton's draft-dodging - or something less substantial still, like the mini-controversy over Hillary (Rodham) Clinton's now-she-uses-it, now-she-doesn't approach to keeping, or not keeping, her maiden name. I think you can make a pretty strong case that Clinton's peculiarly Boomerish relationship to the military brass - the mix of suspicion, condescension and ignorance on both sides - had a more decisive impact on American foreign policy in the 1990s than, say, what Clinton-the-candidate said about China policy in the run-up to the '92 vote. And while there's a sense, obviously, in which nothing could be further from the actual work of governing than the question of whether the First Lady of the United States has her husband's last name, in hindsight I think that the mix of echt-feminist principle and political opportunism that Hillary displayed in her changing choice of last and middle names probably told us as much about her approach to politics than most of the speeches she gave in the course of the campaign against George H.W. Bush.

I could go on, but you get the point. Of course it's entirely possible that all the furor over Wright or "bittergate" or Tuzla or what-have-you will look pointless from the vantage point of 2016 ot 2020. But it's also entirely possible that the arguments Clinton and Obama have been having other health care or NAFTA or Iraq policy will look pointless from the vantage of 2009, let alone a decade from now. And to reverse Andrew's dictum, I would say that precisely because the stakes are so high in Presidential elections, the media has a responsibility to talk about everything - personality as well as policy, gaffes as well as position papers, a candidate's friends and family as well as his advisers. We need to know what we're getting into.

Comments (62)

It could also be true that after 19 previous debates which focused on policy and failed to draw any substantial distinctions between the candidates, ABC was justified in trying to do something else. I watched parts of 2 of the 20 debates (neither of which was #20) and quickly learned all I needed to know to cast my vote in the PA primary tomorrow. Namely, that the two Democratic candidates are about the same on theoretical substance but have very different styles.

I'm sorry. I don't care about John McCain's failed marriage. I don't care about HRC's support for black panthers or Obama's current connections with former black panthers. This is tabloid crap. I'm sure there are people who are more interested in it than actual policy. Because health care has, ya know, NUMBERS and stuff. And economic policy, who can figure THAT out? The problem is that THAT is what we are electing these people to do. THAT'S their main job. Well, after being cheerleader in chief. If a company is hiring an executive, and most of their energy is focused on: "What frat were you in? Hows your golf game? Briefs or boxers? Beer of wine?" They'll get a crappy exec.
I'm interested in the fitness of the candidates to make tough decisions, and their pre-existing policy preferences. The ones they will roll out to congress in January of '09. Whether they play hockey well is of less than no importance.
There is one thing we agree on. Participating in democracy IS an awesome responsibility. Lets not trivialize it with craptastic journalism.

I don't entirely disagree that some personal questions might be appropriate. However, if the point of the ABC debate was to ask personal questions, they picked really lousy ones.

Clinton and Obama have led very unusual lives to say the least. She's a native Chicagoan who found herself living in Arkansas for a couple decades, then served as First Lady during a terrible time in her own marriage. He's biracial, spent time in Indonesia growing up, moved to Hawaii to live with his grandparents, went to Harvard Law School and then maneuvered himself into a U.S. Senate race in Illinois.

I can think of lots of interesting personal questions I would ask each of them, some quite challenging.

Believe me, whether they wear flag lapel pins wouldn't make the list.

Ross,

You forgot to address what, if anything, Barack Obama's stance of American flag lapel pins tells us about his personality.

The point is well taken, but it flips back, then to the problems of bias.

If these were significant questions that should be answered, shouldn't they have been asked in a way that didn't alienate half the audience at the jump?

Gibson's attitude was simply offensive, as was the 'snowman' who asked about the flag pin. Sure it's important to ask Obama about love of country or his ethics of service. But the 'moderators' did the nation a disservice by debasing their own questions.

OBAMA LIES AGAIN AND MAINSTREAM MEDIA LIKE CNN HIDES IT!
VOTERS ARE SICK OF THE MEDIA EXCUSING OBAMA NO MATTER WHO HE OFFENDS!!!!

Sen. Obama referres to himself as 'a constitutional law professor on the campaign trail. TRUTH: He never held any such title! Obama changed website bio to reflect that he was a 'lecturer' rather than 'professor. Chicago Daily Herald

Obama gets 4 Pinocchio’s for 100 Years War-Wondered why the national media won’t call out Obama for his serial distortions on McCain’s Iraq comments, the Globe tried to help Obama rationalize it. Michael Dobbs scolded Obama in today’s Fact Checker


MSNBC-OBAMA: ANOTHER SUPER, EXAGGERATION
Washington Post caught Obama in a lie about the Kennedy family role.
The WashigntonPost Fact Check- Senator Obama CAUGHT LYING about Kennedy Role in Helping His Father Contrary to Obama's claims in speeches Kennedy family did not provide the funding for a September 1959 airlift of 81 Kenyan students to the United States that included Obama's father. According to historical records and interviews with participants, the Kennedys were approached for support for the program a year later, July 1960. family responded with a $100,000 donation, which went to pay for a second airlift in September 1960.

Judicial Watch:
By Klaus Marre-Obama ‘intended to leave no paper trail’ OBAMA REFUSES to cooperate in releasing 8 years of his state senate records. One main reason REZKO!

Politico reports, “During his first run for elected office, Barack Obama played a greater role than he acknowledges in crafting liberal stands on gun control, the death penalty and abortion– positions that appear at odds with the more moderate image he’s projected during his presidential campaign. The evidence comes from an amended version of an Illinois voter group’s detailed questionnaire, filed under his name during his bid for a state Senate. In response to a Politico story, Obama’s answers he never saw questioaire?

NBC- Aswini Anburajan
OBAMA LIES IN PENNSYLVANIA AD
It's unfortunate that Senator Obama is using false advertising to explain why he can be trusted to do something about energy prices. In his ad, Obama says, I'm Barack Obama, and I don't take money from oil companies or lobbyists, and I won't let them block change any more. Obama has been the recipient of more than $220,000 from the oil and gas industry just since as of Feb/08. Two of Obama's campaign bundlers are also CEOs for oil and gas companies, per his campaign Web site? Obama needs to answer to VOTERS about his dealings with one of his largest contributors Exelon, a big nuclear power company that he cut deals behind closed doors protecting them from full disclosure in the nuclear industry. Exxon, Shell, and others are among his biggest donors

Obama in last debate- My writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire ...... as I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns

Obamas record shows he infact did support the war when he got to the senate, voted twice against bringing America's troops back home. He voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater where Texas woman, was gang-raped by her co-workers at a Halliburton/KBR camp in Baghdad, His latest bit of posturing S 433 allows the Bush Administration to suspend any troop withdrawal, if not suspended, keeps the troops in Iraq for a long time to come

Obama said he goofed on votes angered fellow Democrats in the Senate when he voted to strip millions of dollars from a child welfare office on Chicago's West Side. But Obama had a ready explanation: He goofed! Also announced he had fumbled an election-reform vote the day before, on a measure that passed 51 to 6. The next day, he acknowledged voting "present" on a key telecommunications vote. He stood on March 11, 1999, to take back his vote against legislation to end good-behavior credits for certain felons in county jails. "I pressed the wrong button on that," he said. Obama was the lone dissenter on Feb. 24, 2000, against 57 yeas for a ban on human cloning. "I pressed the wrong button by accident," he said. But two of Obama's bumbles came on more-sensitive topics, he backed legislation to permit riverboat casinos to operate even when the boats were dockside. The measure, pushed by the gambling industry and fought by church groups whose support Obama was seeking, passed with two "yeas" to spare -- including Obama's. Moments after its passage he rose to say, explaining that he had mistakenly voted for it.

Obama would later develop a reputation as a critic of the gambling industry, and he voted against a similar measure two years later. But he was clearly confused about how to handle the issue at the time of his first vote, telling a church group that he was "undecided" about whether he backed an expansion of riverboat gambling. And, months earlier, he had voted in favor of a version of the bill.

This post seems very intricate and substantial.

So instead of reading and engaging with it, I'll ask:

1. Ross, do you think that Megan McArdle and Matthew Yglesias love America as much as you do?

2. Do you believe in the American flag?

3. What does the allegation that you shook Jane Fonda's hand in 1995 say about your character and your qualification to blog about national security issues?

Choose your answers carefully.

The previous debates didn't focus on policy, they simply featured questions that generated stock speeches. Many of the statements in those speeches were false or misleading, and the MSM hacks asking the questions either didn't realize that or decided to let the candidates lie.

For examples, see these:
youtube.com/watch?v=nIbDAVQMKGM
youtube.com/watch?v=wm0uWz2BS9M
youtube.com/watch?v=TpqKogu9bzA

Note that after the debate in the first two, Anderson Cooper was schooled on the general issue during an appearance on the Glenn Beck show. CNN asked flawed, lightweight questions that allowed the candidates to just give speeches, and someone who wasn't familiar with these issues was in charge of asking the questions.

The best way to handle this would be for MSM hacks to conduct debates about the personal issues since that's the only thing they're able to understand. Meanwhile, a source like The Atlantic could hold real debates and it wouldn't cost them that much money or time. If the candidates aren't available, get their policy advisors. If they aren't available either, just use a neutral party as a proxy for the candidate. Then, upload it to video sharing sites and post a transcript.

The Atlantic could do that, if they want to generate some publicity and do a public service. I'm just not counting on it.

And so how do we predict which media driven controversies are trivial and which media driven controversies give us a window into the candidate's soul? I guess we need a pundit to figure this kind of stuff out for us, huh?

I don't presume you have any predictions as to what lapel pins foretell us about an Obama presidency, so how do they have value again? So a pundit can write a book with the benefit of hindsight and strained analogies? I guess.

Ross, I'll pay you $5 if you can write a post even more self-refuting than this one. You're a smart guy, but you are often part of the problem (and no, it's not because you're a conservative), which makes it harder for you to realize that there is even a problem.

I would say that precisely because the stakes are so high in Presidential elections, the media has a responsibility to talk about everything - personality as well as policy, gaffes as well as position papers, a candidate's friends and family as well as his advisers. We need to know what we're getting into.

The problem is that's not what's happening.

If the "personality" questions were really designed to uncover candidates' personality flaws, that would actually be useful. The problem is that they such questions are rarely designed to uncover something new, but rather an attempt to confirm a existing belief. And thus they almost never go outside the parameters of the existing narratives about a candidate.

You can see this with the flag pin issue. None of the candidates wear flag pins. But Obama is the only one who is ever asked about it, because there's a narrative that Obama is not a loyal American. By asking about his lack of a flag pin, ABC wasn't really telling us anything new. Rather, they were just reenforcing existing narratives.

Another example is with the 2000 election. In that election, the narrative was that Bush was dumb but honest, and Gore was smart but a liar. In reality, Bush is probably one of the most mendacious Presidents we've ever had. But the media rarely questioned his honesty in 2000, because they weren't willing to challenge the narrative.

So Bush's foreign leader pop quiz wasn't really as helpful as you imply, as it just bought into the narrative. The problem with Bush is not that he's ignorant of foreign affairs (although his level of ignorance is appalling). The problem is that he lies about it very easily, both to the public and, probably, to himself. He's also dismissive of contrary points of view, is unwilling to take criticism, and has almost no capacity for self-reflection. These are serious character flaws that the media in 2000 never uncovered, and that they never really even seriously considered, because they didn't fit the narrative.

Which leaves one to wonder: what serious character flaws in Clinton, McCain or Obama are being left hidden now by the media's refusal to go beyond existing narratives?

One can argue about whether the particular questions were the best or most appropriate for drawing out useful information about the candidates. But how can one seriously believe that Senator Obama, in particular, should be shielded from questions of this nature.

Senator Obama has served in the Illinois and US Senate seats, that is his entire public office experience. His record in those offices is scant, with few notable legislative achievements and little evidence of working with others having different points of view. His speeches suggest he would do so with particular alacrity should he be rewarded with higher office.

Senators Clinton and McCain have for better or worse been prominent in national affairs for a number of years. They have achievements and failures by which voters can judge their worthiness for the Presidency, at least to a greater extent than Senator Obama, the newcomer.

So how else exactly are properly skeptical voters to judge the value of Senator Obama's fine words and inspiring promises? Without a track record, voters need more information about what makes him tick, how he thinks, who he listens to, what he finds acceptable and what is worthy of rejection.

Voters already know some of that about his rivals, though they need to further explore the capabilities of Clinton and McCain as well. Most Presidents have been state Governors or have served as Vice President, but the choice this year is restricted to members of a talking shop called the US Senate.

The press should ask questions that probe past behaviors, thinking processes, and value systems of each of the candidates. But when faced with a well-presented, young and untested leading candidate like Senator Obama, it is absolutely essential.

If Senator Obama's camp does not like such explorations, perhaps he should consider suspending his campaign for this cycle and run again in four or eight years after he has had a chance to take some public votes and risk alienating some voters because he acts on something he believes in. Then the background questions may be superfluous, but for 2008 they are not.

Over time I have found myself reading more of Ross' blog entries than Andrew's and Ross' take on the "freak show" debate, compared with Sullivan's, is an example of why. There is no doubt that we learn much about a candidate's psychology in noting how they react to these kinds of questions. Some candidates are very good at it—JFK and Reagan come to mind, and we like their "sunny dispositions"—and others aren't so good (dour Muskie's Achilles' heel? Nixon's inferiority complex?).
Obama, Clinton and McCain all appear a bit testy, not in the top ranks psychologically. We know this only because of such occasions as the recent debate.

alkali and Dave in California have it.

Even granting the premise that the personal is political, the media sucks at it.

It's good at finding a narrative (McCain's mavericky goodness vs. Obama's elitist gutterball). It's good at trying to play up flip-flops. But it's terrible at understanding what a person is like.

George Bush was the plain, good, godly, humble Texan, against the smarty-pants Al Gore. Bush has led us into an interminable occupation of a hostile volcano, emptied the treasury, spent taxpayer money on torturing and covering it up, hired a series of incompetent flunkies, etc. But he's a normal guy! Just ask Peggy Noonan and Chris Matthews circa 2000!

Just what on earth lapel-pin-gate has to do with anything is unclear to me. If we're going to live in the freak show, then we get to spend time making a stink out of McCain's epic philandering, scandalous remarriage, Keating five experience, and hair-trigger temper. That ought to balance the budget and fix Iraq.

I have known a few politiciands, and have known a lot more people who know politicians. And one consistent result is that their personalities, as perceived by those who know them, bear no resemblence to their popular personas. Those the public think of as aloof aren't. Those the public think of as smart aren't. Those the public think of as nice aren't. I wouldn't go so far as to say there is a negative correlation between public persona and actual personality, but there is definitely a zero correlation.

On the other hand, there is actually a pretty strong correlation between election platform and what is implemented in office -- the reason we remember it otherwise is because the exception is more prominent mentally than the rule.

Ross's post just shows the benefit of constitutional monarchy. I don't doubt the existence of a hunger for a relationship with the persona of public figures, whether positive or negative. It just should be supplied by hereditary monarchs and their families, not by politicians who should be considered unglamorous professionals, like dentists.

dave in california: excellent points. What ABC did was spread the republican rumors about his patriotism and allow Hillary to rub them in further. They smeared him. And it looked deliberate. It was certainly relentless. The questions about character they left in the minds of viewers were not valid.That's not the same as asking questions that get to the chore of his character-- which I would have welcomed. And what's so pathetic about ABC doing this is that the Republicans do this same exact and predictable smear tactic to every Democratic nominee during every presidential election. It is getting so old, but apparently it seems to still work. Or at least Hillary Clinton is hoping it does.

... and another thing.

Ross wrote: "We’re deciding to live with their personalities – their sexual appetites and Daddy issues, their spouses and their friends, their religious beliefs and their psychodramas – for four or eight long years."

We have a press and a GOP that cares much, much more about whether there was an affair in the Oval Office than whether the US government plotted out its torture techniques there.

There were no crises in the 1990s.

People may have found entertainment in discussing about Bill Clinton's "sexual appetites," but it doesn't compare to warrantless wiretapping, torture, disregard of the rule of law and separation of powers, stretching the truth about the intel on WMD (aluminum tubes, UAVs, the Niger forgeries), etc.

Polls throughout the 1990s saw very high approval levels for Clinton, even as similarly high numbers disapproved of his behavior. We have "to live with" that kind of crap only because pundits prefer to revel in it than to do work. Looking into Bush's advisors would have been a better way of predicting the future than trying harder at psychoanalysis.

regarding disposition: up until this last debate, I thought Obama's disposition seemed remarkably upbeat and smooth. But we're all human. fifteen months of relentless campaigning has gotta be hard. And while I don't like the recent negative tone Obama has succumbed to, at least we know he's not the lightweight Hillary Clinton has been trying to portray him as.

regarding disposition: up until this last debate, I thought Obama's disposition seemed remarkably upbeat and smooth. But we're all human. fifteen months of relentless campaigning has gotta be hard. And while I don't like the recent negative tone Obama has succumbed to, at least we know he's not the lightweight Hillary Clinton has been trying to portray him as.

regarding disposition: up until this last debate, I thought Obama's disposition seemed remarkably upbeat and smooth. But we're all human. fifteen months of relentless campaigning has gotta be hard. And while I don't like the recent negative tone Obama has succumbed to, at least we know he's not the lightweight Hillary Clinton has been trying to portray him as.

regarding disposition: up until this last debate, I thought Obama's disposition seemed remarkably upbeat and smooth. But we're all human. fifteen months of relentless campaigning has gotta be hard. And while I don't like the recent negative tone Obama has succumbed to, at least we know he's not the lightweight Hillary Clinton has been trying to portray him as.

It's not that the media shouldn't cover personality, it's that the media does A TERRIBLE JOB at doing so. Just like it does a terrible job at everything else. The. Media. Sucks.

How anyone can possibly defend the media is beyond me. I mean besides media pundits like Ross Douthat, John Harris and Jim Vandehei.

David Brooks is an insufferable Right Wing concern troll and tool. But I can't say it better than Michael Berube:

Things would actually be simpler if the American commentariat was composed merely of corporate shills. Instead, it's composed also of pathological, Chris Matthewsian misogynists, rabid foaming Glenn Becks, Tim Russert the Terrible Trivium, and, of course, David "Red Man Tobacco and Pabst Blue Ribbon" Brooks, who loved last night's debate and warns us today, no whining about the media.


Well, Blue Ribbon, ol' boy, this isn't a whine. Think of it instead as a barbaric yawp. When you write, "We may not like it, but issues like Jeremiah Wright, flag lapels and the Tuzla airport will be important in the fall," we know you're telling the truth, because you'll be around in the fall telling us precisely how important these things are. After all, as you note, we should "remember how George H.W. Bush toured flag factories to expose Michael Dukakis."

Hold the phone, Red Man- did you say "expose Michael Dukakis"? As what, pray tell? As the flag-burning, hemp-wearing, Amerikkka-hating card-carrying member of the ACLU he really was? I seem to recall 1988 as the year George H. W. Bush was exposed as a craven slimeball who would use the phrase "card-carrying member of the ACLU" as an epithet. But then, I don't read the newspapers.

Ross,
Doesn’t your take here contradict your position in this recent post? Or rather, stand in tension with it? I agree that some personal things are suggestive of a candidate’s style of relating to others and of her manner of thinking, making decisions, managing, and leading. But how a candidate speaks about policy (and about the philosophy behind her policy preferences), when grilled in a tough and detailed way about that (rather than about out-of-context tabloid headlines), is probably the best way of assessing these intangible, personal aspects of her qualifications. To extract moral or political significance from clergy with whom a candidate is affiliated, for instance, without evidence of her agreement with particular objectionable claims or ways of thinking, is to engage in the kind of speculation that will almost surely lead to errors analogous to those you detailed in your previous post.

A slight amendment can be made here: if how you campaign is part of how you market yourself—if you are running because you seek to change how politics is conducted—then you should bear some additional measure of accountability for how you run your campaign. But this standard would not necessarily leave Sen. Obama seeming disreputable. If inclusion is an aspect of how you want to change politics, you have more room, not less, to maintain a wide range of acquaintances and allegiances with those who share aspects of your agenda but with whom you retain the right to disagree; this reaching out may help broader coalitions to emerge than those typical under more conventional politicking.

Ross, you're a weirdo and a lightweight. If you need some idea of the company you're keeping, just check out the commenter who's so cleverly named "OBAMA LIES AGAIN."

Ross,

I think there is a HUGE amount wrong with this, but I just want to touch on one of them (partly because many able commenters have already done a good job of pointing out some of your other errors):

The flag pin thing? Really? I've just lost a LOT of respect for you. I mean, Rev. Wright and even Ayers I can see, even though I don't think either of them (especially Ayers) says much of significance. But the flag pin thing?

This post reminds of why I should vote for Obama tomorrow, and how important his candidacy really is.

Now: I understand the argument that the questions about the Weathermen and inflammatory pastors are important because they reveal the character of the person seeking office. What's more, I accept that these things are important to people.

But I've spent enough time in newspaper and television newsrooms to know this: The story you put above the fold, or at the beginning of your newscast, is the most important story of the day. And even if it's not the most important story of the day, it becomes the most important story because you're telling your audience it is.

So: By filling the first third of the debate with questions about lapel pins and Jeremiah Wright, ABC News was not merely acknowledging that these issues are important to some voters. They were effectively saying that flag lapel pins are the most important issues to focus on -- more than dealing with terrorism, civil liberties, the economy, health care or a host of other issues that will actually affect people's lives. And that's why ABC deserves every bit of criticism that it's getting.

I suppose depth is not to be expecvted from someone who does not know the meaning of the word "narrative," but even so, this is vacuous.

In the long run in a presidential contest character counts actually rather more than policy positions. In Obama's case we learn much about his character through the Wright imbroglio, the Rezco affair, and, yes, consorting with such such dubious characters as Ayers.

The people who "hated" that debate in Philly are those who well know that Obama is a rookie national politician of questionable character and apparently even incapable of playing in a hardball political game.

MY FELLOW “BITTER”, STUPID, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE :-)

If you think like Barack Obama, that WORKING CLASS PEOPLE are just a bunch of “BITTER”!, STUPID, PEASANTS, Cash COWS!, and CANNON FODDER. :-(

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT ONE!

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) left office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and protections in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) made higher education affordable for every American. And created higher job demand and starting salary’s than they had ever been before or since.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest Presidents in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that you can change the way Washington works with pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like Hillary and Bill Clinton..

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton. :-)

Best regards

jacksmith... Working Class :-)

p.s. You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you don't know that the huge amounts of money funding the Obama campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your suffering...

You see, back in 1993 Hillary Clinton had the audacity, and nerve to try and get quality, affordable universal health care for everyone to prevent the suffering and needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of you each year. :-)

Approx. 100,000 of you die each year from medical accidents from a rush to profit by the insurance, and medical industry. Another 120,000 of you die each year from treatable illness that people in other developed countries don’t die from. And I could go on, and on...

I understand why right-leaning are more than happy that the likes of Gibsonapolous are legitimizing gutterball Swiftboat politics by questioning BHO's patriotism. But if "the personal is political" and such issues are germane, than I'm sure Douhat, Brooks et al. would be more than pleased if McCain and his team are routinely peppered with questions like this:

1. Do Americans want a president with the sort of character that leads him to cheat on his wife are she is seriously injured in an automobile crash?

2. Do Americans want a drug addict first lady who steals from charities even though she herself is multi-millionaire who hasn't had to work for a thing in her whole life?

3. What does it say about John McCain that two of his greatest political heroes - Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan - opposed the major civil rights legislation of the 1960s and than John McCain himself opposed efforts to honor MLK?

4. Do Americans want a man in the Oval Office who refers to his own wife as a "c-nt" as John McCain is reported to have done on the campaign trail in 1992?

If hear questions like this repeated again and again on mainstream news shows and in major political debates, than I may think about considering whether asking Barack Obama about WIlliam Ayers has anything to do with anything, let alone becoming a major topic of American political discourse and debate.

For all the intelligence you put into most of your posts, this one is a lulu. Just a few of the high points:
1. You repeat the canard that the voters care about flag pins and such. This is not true - polls (and questions asked by the public) consistently show that the voters care primarily about the war, the economy, health care - you know, the issues. It's just the reporters who are clueless.
2. If reporters were grilling McCain about Keating, about Haggee, about why he's not wearing a lapel pin, I could believe that they just had bizarre ideas about what was important. Since only Democrats are subjected to this in most cases, it is negligence, or worse. We're not seeing investigation of character issues, we're seeing the beginning of Swift Boat '08.
3. Anyone who makes a voting decision based on a flag lapel pin rather than plans for health care reform is a moron.

Shales was right - this was a shallow and despicable performance. My daughter's high school journalism class would have done significantly better.

This line of questioning is relevant because it cuts to the core of the Obama's "platform." Obama is running as a post-partisan change agent who will alter the nature of politics. His affiliations with Wright and Ayers, and his bumbling efforts to defend them, puncture these pretensions.

Far from being post-partisan and something new, bitter- , flag- , and Ayers-gate show that Obama is really something very old -- a New Left, radical with a penchant for identity and grievance politics, long-standing affiliations with mouth-foaming, 60s-style radicals and a healthy contempt for the ideas and passions of the unwashed and unenlightened.

Obama's inability to put this controversy to rest gives the lie to his grandiose promise to change the nature of politics, to eliminate the partisanship that Washington sought to avoid, and could not, and that every other politican in his wake, including FDR and Lincoln, had to accept as a feature of the landscape. Obama's inability to reduce this tempest in a teapot to a simmer show him to be a mediocre to poor politican with no chance of fulfilling his messianic promises.

in re your point that

"And I'm sure you can think of your own examples of moments from the Bush Presidency that make that silly, meaningless stunt of a pop quiz look, well, at least mildly relevant to his governance."

the problem is, it was EXACTLY these types of "character is relevant" memes that decided the 200 election - WHEN THEY WERE USED TO ATTACK AL GORE.

DO you not REMEMBER the "Al Gore is a liar, and he's elitist and arrogant, but Bush is a straight-talking, regular guy you'd like to have a beer with!" mindset of the press - the mindset that made 2000 close enough to steal?

And the "straight-talking, honest Texan the Washington chattering classes brought to power turned out to be the most deceitful, pathological liar ever to be president.

Of course, if the press had really done their job in 2000 - stopped joking around with the candidate on the plane, and instead reported on the lies Bush told all through the campaign, about his tax cut, and his education plan, and his record in Texas - or, for that matter, his military service - we might still have a country, and a constitution, left.

SO for the Media to claim that "character matters" - after they have proven themselves such disastrously poor judges of character in 2000 and 2004 - takes some nerve, don't you think?

sorry, I didn't get your point. I got blah, blah, blah. Do you believe what you write? This 'awesome responsibility that we have depends upon a flag pin?

Let me get this straight: there's a way to figure out what a candidate's foreign policy will be by observing the candidate's spouse's behavior regarding her maiden name? Do tell!

I don't read you much, but I've noticed that you are a master of unargued insinuation. I just wish you'd go ahead and make the argument in all its splendor so we could take a good look and see if it really holds up.

Another way to say this: anything goes in a debate, because president's are exposed to everything. By your logic, Ross, we might as well have them arm wrestle, or engage in a hot dog eating competition. It's not clear exactly what such contests would reveal about the candidates, but surely they would reveal something!

The liberal commenters here do a good job of pointing out the obvious, i.e., that any conservative who backs up ABC now would completely repudiate the position if the guns of ABC-type questions were trained on McCain. Keep in mind, the questions that have been asked of Obama are about the same caliber as the fringe who thinks McCain was made a Manchurian candidate while he was a POW, or sold out the US under torture, or whatever. It's total bottom-of-the-barrel stuff. So imagine those types of questions being asked in a network debate, along with all the Cindy McCain-based questions, the Keating 5, the NYT's piece on him earlier this year, etc. etc. Maybe McCain could be asked about elderly drivers who run over people?

But then imagine all that drivel being asked of McCain incessantly for four months leading up to the election. ABC will undoubtedly say that someone, somewhere considers these questions important, so they'll have a justification. I look forward to reading the conservosphere's opinion of these types of debate questions at that time.

Last thing: it might be worth thinking, for two seconds, about how this stuff goes in other countries. In France, no one asks about mistresses, patriotism, or past associations. Nor do reporters do so overmuch in England. Nor in Germany. In fact, it's not done in most of the free world. Just to say that it's entirely possible not to do it and have functioning democracy. What we saw ABC do is actually pretty anomalous. It wasn't even that way in America until the late 80's. Those so-called moderators were more in the tradition of puritan town halls than the free press.

My wife, who is French, has been appalled at the tone of primaries. It doesn't need to be this way, and maybe if it wasn't we wouldn't be making disastrous decisions like electing Bush etc.

It's pretty easy to point out that the last 7+ years of George Bush refutes your entire argument, but most of the commenters here do a rather thorough and convincing job of it. I look forward to your follow-up.

With regard to this point:

But it's also entirely possible that the arguments Clinton and Obama have been having other health care or NAFTA or Iraq policy will look pointless from the vantage of 2009, let alone a decade from now.

At least their stated positions can be judged on the merits and whether they adhere to the candidates political philosophies articulated during the campaign. These "symbolic" issues serve merely to smear and undermine, not to anticipate how a candidate might perform. What does the missing flag lapel mean? That he won't care enough about America work in the nation's interest? Are you kidding?

To many, Obama will now always be an elist America-hating terrorist Muslim, in part because the media chose to focus on "how he responds" to trumped up issues rather than on the merits of his ideas.

BTW, to hypepark_harry and others who assume simply because the name "William Ayers" is mentioned that he must be counted as an "associate" of Obama's, keep in mind that the level of contacts Obama has had with Ayers (at least as the story has been discussed by the media) barely rise above the contacts that any legislator has with any activist constituent. All you're doing is encouraging McCain's opponents to go trash-diving for some comparable Republican supporter of McCain ... and don't doubt they'll find one (in addition to Keating, Bob Allen and others I'm presumably not thinking of). One shouldn't let Sean Hannity so easily determine what one thinks.

hypepark harry,
Your comment mixes wishful thinking and misrepresentation into a minor masterpiece of sophistry. Your claim that Sen. Obama exhibits “a penchant for identity and grievance politics” is an exercise in tired political stereotyping devoid of real evidence in its support. The fact that he hasn’t completely disassociated himself from people who employ objectionable rhetoric or who have objectionable histories who are also doing some good things may be inadequate from your point of view, but this choice on his part in no way implies, much less proves, that he has the political orientation to which you refer. In fact, his disinclination to denounce either the left or the right (many on the left criticize him for his openness to dialogue with conservatives) speaks precisely to his message of inclusion. Not being able to put the left in an instant category of unacceptableness seems to make you uncomfortable. (If so you wouldn’t be alone in that.)

But the openness that doesn’t pounce at either side with labels reflects an imperfect, nascent, but genuinely different approach to politics that will listen to you, too, with an open mind. It actually really isn’t a politics of condescension, although its candidate acknowledges differences among people and may make mistakes in the course of trying to bridge those differences, which is probably a lot better than pretending everyone, or everyone worth uniting, already agrees on the questions of the day. The latter, old vision of politics purchases a superficial peace called conventional wisdom that limits its vision to a preexisting consensus dominated by lobbyists and elite media and is frantic to exclude, as your post unfortunately was. You do not have to agree with Obama or anyone else about everything, or to pretend to do so, in order to try to offer a fair hearing and to acknowledge points of common ground. You can do that.

The largely bottom-up movement Sen. Obama represents is doing that, and fighting to move us in that same direction. This movement expresses, not post-partisanship, exactly—you’re right about that—but neither is it cynical or typical partisanship. It’s the kind of cleaning out of conventional wisdom and special-interest powers-that-be in Washington that prevents both compromise and honest, respectful argument on issues where leadership and progress are badly needed. (What issues? Many in this movement would agree that we need an agenda of better national security, more widespread economic security, environmental triage, restoration of traditional civil liberties, and a more transparent, accountable government to achieve all these goals.) Disagree on the merits. But our views are passionately and proudly held, and we are not going to agree with characterizations of us as recycled exemplars of the politics of the past.

"Freak Show" was used by Bill Moyers in 2004 to describe right wing radio:

After the preliminaries and the listing of what sounded like 75 underwriting foundations, Moyers last night introduced the first report, "A Matter of Opinion," by recalling a car trip he and wife Judith Davidson Moyers (a partner in his business) took and how shocked they were when they started scanning the radio dial. What he heard, Moyers said, was "a freak show of political pornography" on a scale he found "malignant."

The report, produced by Kathleen Hughes, documented conservative excesses on the "public" airwaves. Sean Hannity, a bullying buffoon on the "fair and balanced" Fox News network, spent much of his time this year campaigning for George W. Bush, telling an audience in one city that a vote for Democrat John Kerry would help "Osama get his way."

Geez, doesn't anyone hear ever listen to Hannity?

John Harris and Jim Vandehei do a fine job of demolishing one narrative about the Debate That Everyone Hated last week in Philadelphia - namely, the notion that there was something particularly unfair to Barack Obama about the line of questioning the moderators took.

Nope. Not even close.

This seems like an appropriate time to point out the absurdity that anyone should even have to consider what someone's lapel pin means, what their pastor said, what last name they use might say about their character, etc.

Limit what government can do, and I care not who does the governing.

You statists can have your freak show (or not).

This theory presupposes Americans have the intellectual heft to do anything meaningful with this information.

Having lived through four years of the worst President in the nation's history, the electorate re-elected the man. What does that tell you about the collective national ability to assimilate information in a coherent manner?

How appropriate that Mr. Herbert's column in Tuesday's NYT reveals the growing collapse of education and learning in America today.

As we become dumber as a nation, there's no corresponding caution that perhaps we should not go about overthrowing sovereign governments, if for no other reason than our shrinking analytical skills make the proposition shaky to begin with.

I am happy for the populace to weigh the value of Obama knowing a man who was active in the Weathermen 40 years ago when Obama was 8. However, the fact that 99% of the populace couldn't tell you one meaningful fact about the Weather Underground makes such knowledge pointless, as it has no context.

The Weathermen are presented as a "terrorist organization", as an Al-Qaeda of days gone by when, in fact, they were unique amongst revolutionary groups of the time.

They made a point of not hurting humans. They went out of their way to never harm people. They are the only revolutionary group this side of a Disney film that attacked only inanimate objects.

While the FBI was acting as a de facto terrorist organization, ruining lives and arranging assassinations via its COINTELPRO campaign, the Weather Underground were attacking FBI buildings at night when everyone had gone home.

There were three casualties during their entire run up until the time they disbanded in the early 70's after the end of the Vietnam war. These casualties were their own members who were killed while working with explosives.

Yet, Hillary and McCain and every other cynical proselytizer play as if the Weathermen were the Baader-Meinhof Gang. Perhaps the fact that Bill Ayers never served a day in prison speaks to the violence of his actions.

So, if one thinks associating Bill Ayers with Obama offers anything productive other than continued ignorance by a populace that was deceived into believing in WMDs, in a nation that often displays its reasoning powers with all the aptitude of the world's largest Special Ed class, is fooling themselves.

Doesn't ELF also eschew human targets?

Dear Ross:

Sexual appetites, daddy issues, and pyschodrama are important! Finally there is someone willing to address the issues that matter to me. I have three questions:
- Does Hillary prefer to be on top or bottom?
- Does Obama love his mommy more than his daddy?
- Does McCain cry after seeing a good film?
This concerned voter demands an answer for these pressing questions! i have faith that dedicated members of the media such as yourself can get to the heart of these important matters. Obviously until then my vote will be undecided.

Your truly,

Concerned Voter

Who were the weathermen?

So, what, you're having lunch with George next week? Or are you interviewing to work with Gibson yourself?

The vast majority of these posts are so typical of the hosannas of Obama's supports.

First, there's the great leap of faith. On and on and on they go about a break from conventional wisdom, a new poltics, change, listening to all sides. But apart from vacuous generalities, they provide no examples of Obama's non-conventional wisdom, no instances of his having listened to or adopted a conservative or neoconservative idea (all sides means the left, far left, and moon-bat crazy left), no examples of legistation in which he worked across the aisle (missing in action in the gang of 12), and no signal legislative or other accomplishments apart from beating the mighty Alan Keyes. To think this lackluster performer will be Lincoln, Jefferson, and FDR roled into one surely requires a leap of faith.

Then, there's the moaning about unfairness. Why doesn't McCain get treated the same? Maybe the same things don't stick to McCain because he's not making messianic promises and actually has accomplished the sorts of things Obama only talks about -- facing down America's enemies in a POW prison, passing bipartisan legislation and breaking with the Republican line, taking standsthat put his career at risk (see the surge), and the compilation of the long record of acheivements in the Congress.

Finally, there's the self-indulgent self-righteousness and the attedant hypocrisy. Despite all the Obama lip service to bridging divides and listening to all sides and new politics, anyone who dares criticize the chosen one is met with the very same nastiness Obama was supposed to deliver us from -- charges of bad faith and misrpresentations, smears, and distortions. No small reason why Obama's in trouble now is that a lot of people enjoy seeing this santimonious, holier-than-thou candidate and his supports get their comeuppance and being shown the have clay feet like the rest of us.

History may be a nightmare we're trying to wake up from. Obama is a national daydream that the country's just now starting to shake off as it rouses itself and gets serious about electing a president.

hypepark harry,
My post was not nasty, although it was critical, and you did not really address my points (more on that below).

You asked for some examples of Obama accomplishments. Obama worked with police officers and conservatives, listening to their concerns, to build unanimous support for his own pioneering legislative efforts to reform criminal investigative procedure in Illinois, which had been subject to nationwide attention for corrupt practices and (whoops!) erroneous death penalty convictions. His ethics reform legislation in Congress won bipartisan, that is, 96-2, support; the work of reform is not complete, but this was a real step forward on an issue that faced notorious recalcitrance. Nor was this a new, 11th-hour issue of convenience for him; he had done similar work in state government.

And despite its imperfections Obama’s is a largely bottom-up movement driven not by the calcluations of political consultants but by a genuinely different approach to politics. Its fundraising practices, its proposals for openness in government bureaucratic procedures, and its attention to and interaction with the grassroots is what democracy is all about. Politics makes opponents skeptical of each other, so I sympathize with your attitude. But if you want to see this issue honestly, you need to look at the evidence in support of our point of view and see what reasons many of us have for feeling this campaign has promise to model a new kind of politics.

McCain-Feingold, by contrast, McCain’s signature reform, is widely recognized as essentially ineffective in reducing special interest influence and as having trampled the political speech protections in the First Amendment (indeed, the Supreme Court later ruled as much). McCain deserves credit for his openness to buck Republican constituencies, but there is less here than meets the eyes. For instance, his war support is a case of plus royaliste que le roi conservatism, not of real iconoclasm. (And his war stance helped him in the primaries.)

Apparently Ross is still in Junior High if thinks that these issues are important. But in his defense he is very young and may still grow up.

The only important thing is that Obama is an african-american ...

his liberal/socialist policy ideas are not important ...

his racist, terrorist, communist friends aren't important ...

his lies aren't important ...

We are all racists (white males especially) and we must show how sorry we are ...

Please let us focus on what is important in this election ... WE CAn END RACISM BY ELECTING OBAMA ... and since that is what we all care about lets just get on with it ...

Jeff,
Obama’s policy ideas are important; you labeled them but didn’t discuss what they are. He wants to make health care more affordable and to end a war that is killing and maiming our troops while distracting us from the most important national security threats and from opportunities to build coalitions to address them. He believes education policies and economic regulation need to be reworked to give people more of a shot at the American Dream. And he wants a more open, accountable government that respects the civil liberties and intelligence of the people, believing Washington would work better if it weren’t such a bubble of power isolated from most people’s concerns, from public scrutiny, and from new ideas. I think these ideas, just a sample, are pretty worthwhile.

Incidentally, you mentioned race quite a bit in your post, but it’s angry conservative critics who mention it far more than he does; that seems strange. Anwyay, the fact remains that we have lots of problems to talk about and work on as a nation, and Obama is making thoughtful contributions to that process.

Here's a media-related question: will our pundits ever figure out the difference between argument and assertion?

"I don't think these topics matter just because they’re "symbolic"; I think they matter because they’re personal, because they tell us something (or seem to tell us something) about the psychology of the person we're being asked to vote for."

Really? Tell us what? Tell us how?

A number of people have said that there had already been 20 debates, so the limited policy differences between Sens. Clinton and Obama had already been aired. However, this overlooks several things:

1) Most of those debates included many other candidates and did not allow for deep or extended discussions of any single issue, let alone a direct contrast between any two candidates. The ABC debate was only the fourth one-on-one debate between Sens. Clinton and Obama.

2) There are many, many issues that have never been addressed at any length. There are any number of foreign policy questions that have not been raised and that might force the candidates to depart from their talking points in a way that gives a glimpse into their understanding of the world. How about asking the candidates, in light of recent events first in Kenya and now in Zimbabwe, whether they see a role for the U.S.? How about asking their thoughts on the situation in Abkhazia and South Ossetia? These may seem like obscure places and issues, but asking about them might still provide some insight into how the candidates think and how informed they are.

3) Everyone has not watched the 20 prior debates. Last week's debate was intended to be for Pennsylvania voters. Most of the people tuning in probably had not seen very much of the previous debates.

What Brian said. Also, why not have debates between them on single issues, such as Iraq? It’s a complicated and important issue and deserves the time. Such a debate would allow foreign policy gravitas to be shown, rather than ascribed to candidates (or withheld) on the basis of their reputations or self-descriptions.

Ross, your analysis is spot on, but I have to disagree with the general argument in which you frame it. Indeed, the personal is political, but a discourse that reinforces the personal-ization of political leaders in turn reinforces the dynamic that you mention in the next paragraph: the reason we desire a sense of intimacy, no matter how illusory it may be (and it seems to me that whatever sense of intimacy we think we get from television appearances and debates is basically delusional), is because the we do think of the president as a temporary monarch, which is to say, we are prepared to delegate whatever power we may possess as individual citizens or potential members of politically active collectivities, to a single individual. It is the apotheosis of the king's two bodies, insofar as the public body wants identify fully with the body of its leader. This is obviously a strikingly undemocratic relationship between ruler and ruled, and the discourse of faux-intimacy, and personality tests, as a decisive factor in choosing a leader is both a product of, and serves to reinforce, this dynamic.

Charles Gelman above has it exactly right.

A United States president isn't meant to be a "temporary monarch." The entire notion is disgusting. And all of this personal-personal-personal business feeds right into it.

The president is supposed to be a citizen whom other citizens choose to help defend their rights for a few years. That's all.

You know all this, of course. But you enjoy the theater of it all -- the fun of having something so Grand And Important to sit around thinking about and talking about and being part of -- as much as everyone else. So you buy into the whole thing anyway. You're happy being complicit in the monarchization of the presidency.

hyperpark harry,

the "change" message used in Obama's campaign is simply a movement away from the neocon agenda which became conventional wisdow under Republican leadership and from the Bush/Clinton dynasty. i don't think there were ever any promises to change the democractic party to be more neoconservative.
i agree that obama's agenda is somewhat idealistic. but mccain's agenda of making iraq a long term military operation and one day claiming victory and walking away without huge loss of life and government spending is pretty high-minded too. on top of this he wants to keep cutting taxes without cutting spending and ignoring our already huge deficit - sounds pretty lofty to me. of course all the hypocrisy and self-righteous labels you attach to obama could easily apply to the republican party of the past 8 years. while mccain is not a typical republican his stance on iraq and the economy is still throughly republican which are the most important issues so i don't think he would come any closer to bridging the republican/democrat, conservative/liberal divide than obama would.